/lit/ - Literature

>>14756682
Read Gospel of John. It is the first mystical Catholic text

>>14756682
Before you do, ensure you are living a Christian life, receiving Communion, and confessing your sins. Mysticism isn't something you can just get into because you're curious - if you are not prepared you will suffer serious consequences. Even if you are prepared, remember that as you move along this path you will face greater and greater temptation as satan and his angels attempt to steer you off course. Mystics such as Padre Pio even report being beaten bodily by demons.

>>14756682
Pray the Rosary

>>14756743
>>14756770
I admit that I do still struggle with sin: sins of Lust, sins of Wrath, sins of Pride. But I do pray the Rosary every single day, and I also never go more than three weeks without going to Confession. I am always sure to go to Confession for mortal sins before receiving the Eucharist, and often I go to Confession every two weeks.

I've also had some strange experiences already. Very weird stuff. It was a few years ago, and I've never been the same since.

>>14756743
>Before you do, ensure you are living a Christian life, receiving Communion, and confessing your sins.
This. If mysticism is about intimate union with God, you can't do it properly unless you already have a basic relationship with God.

>>14756682
Try some of these.

- The Origins of the Christian Mystical Tradition : From Plato to Denys ( Andrew Louth )
- The Foundations of Mysticism : Origins to the Fifth Century ( The Presence of God : A History of Western Christian Mysticism, Vol. 1 )
- The Unknown God : Negative Theology in the Platonic Tradition : Plato to Eriugena

- Origen : On First Principles

- Theophany : The Neoplatonic Philosophy of Dionysius the Areopagite ( Suny Series in Ancient Greek Philosophy )
- Pseudo-Dionysius : The Complete Works ( Classics of Western Spirituality )

- Maximus the Confessor : Selected Writings ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- The Philosophy of John Scottus Eriugena : A Study of Idealism in the Middle Ages
- Periphyseon : On The Division of Nature

- Bernard of Clairvaux : Selected Works ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Hildegard von Bingen : Scivias

- Mechthild von Magdeburg : Das fließende Licht der Gottheit

- The Mystical Thought of Meister Eckhart : The Man from Whom God Hid Nothing
- Wandering Joy : Meister Eckhart's Mystical Philosophy
- The Complete Mystical Works of Meister Eckhart

- Johannes Tauler : Sermons ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Mechthild of Hackeborn : The Book of Special Grace ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Saint Gertrude the Great

- Heinrich Seuse

- Bonaventure : The Soul's Journey into God, The Tree of Life, The Life of St. Francis ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Anchoritic Spirituality : Ancrene Wisse and Associated Works ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Marguerite Porete : The Mirror of Simple Souls ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- John Ruusbroec : The Spiritual Espousals, The Sparkling Stones, and Other Works ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Catherine of Siena : The Dialogue ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- Richard Rolle : The English Works ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )
- Richard Rolle : The Fire of Love

- Julian of Norwich : Revelations of Divine Love ( Oxford World's Classics )

- Walter Hilton : The Scale of Perfection ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- The Cloud of Unknowing and Other Works ( Penguin Classics )

- Ignatius of Loyola : Spiritual Exercises and Selected Works ( Classics of Western Spirituality )

- Luis de León : The Names of Christ ( Classics of Western Spirituality Series )

- St. Teresa of Avila : The Life of Saint Teresa of Avila by Herself
- St. Teresa of Avila : The Way of Perfection by St. Teresa of Avila : Study Edition
- St. Teresa of Avila : The Interior Castle ( Tan Classics )

- John of the Cross : Collected Works

>>14756932
what happened

>>14757642
Very good selection. Pleased to see that there is no gnostic heresy in it (that shit is so common on this board). As a prelim to all this, OP might read The Imitation of Christ, which is more an introduction to detachment and mild lay-people-level asceticism, but its a good primer for this other stuff.

>>14757642
You are missing Cusa's De Visione Dei, dear Sir.

>>14757642
What is the absolute first work I should read from that list?

>>14757751
It's in chronological order, anon.

>>14757667
Porete and Eckhart were both considered heretics

>>14756682
>How do I get into the Catholic mystics?
You don't. What you need to do is realise that your interest in reactionary politics and antiquated religion (which you don't even believe in really), is a product of your profound sexual frustration.
You need to stop hating women and minorities and learn to talk to women like humans. Then, you can get a gf and have sex. That's what you need to do to instead of getting into Catholic mystics or bringing back the Latin mass; have sex.

>>14758712
This shitpost deserves nothing more than a couple soiaks.

>>14758712
>t. protestant who doesn't actually believe in God and knows jackshit about anything

>What you need to do is realise that your interest in reactionary politics and antiquated religion (which you don't even believe in really), is a product of your profound sexual frustration.
>You need to stop hating women and minorities and learn to talk to women like humans. Then, you can get a gf and have sex. That's what you need to do to instead of getting into Catholic mystics or bringing back the Latin mass; have sex.

>>14756682

I think they take vows to stay virgins

>>14758712
To be honest, reading Confessions returned me to the faith, and it was only by coming back to the faith that I met my girlfriend. We met at Church and we spend most of our time going to adoration, reading about contemplative prayer, and reading mystical books. The entire relationship, built on traditional prayer and worship, has been beyond anything I could have ever dreamed of before having faith. The hardest part has been making sure that my/our motivations in the relationship have actually been to do the will of God, rather than any selfish and earthly pleasure. Given the clearly superior holiness of consecrated life, it has taken an immense amount of discernment to feel confident that we are not disregarding our proper vocations. I have only been reassured by the fact that we did a deMontfort consecration to Mary together and that our Marian devotion has only ever increased by this relationship, and we have each increased our prayer life and mortifications. I intend to propose on the Feast of Annunciation with my grandmother's ring, beset with six diamonds and a sapphire. (I would prefer twelve diamonds, but do not think I can afford it.) When we are married, we will have a large family dedicated to the glory of God and the spread of Marian devotion. For where Mary reigns, God must reign also, and for as much as God must love Mary, it is only fitting and just that we love her also. And as much as these things are wonderful, and I wish all men could know this joy I have known, by taking this route of devotion one would only risk even greater joys and glories. God has been good to me, but how much better he is that some could spend their whole lives before him in prayer, or, even greater, that some would have the honor and privilege of serving God at his altar? Read as many holy books as you can with as much devotion as you can. It has never been easier in all of human history to love God.

>>14757652
A man would appear to me and speak whenever I'm delirious with brain fever. He wore checkered trousers, quite threadbare, and of a style not contemporary for quite a long while.

>>14757759
He probably meant "first" in the sense of importance or whichever one would wet his toes

>>14758591
>Eckhart
no
>>14758712
>have sex
terrible bait

>>14757642
>- Heinrich Seuse
Little Book of Eternal Wisdom is great and it's amazing Seuse is only Blessed and not a canonized saint

>>14758712
whew major SEETHING post

>>14758712
>everyone i disagree with is sexually repressed

>>14756743
I've found this to be so true. The retired bishop that heard my first confession in a decade this past November even warned me of it. It's so difficult to resist temptation, but keep trying, brothers. Pray the rosary, go to daily mass, and use this upcoming Lenten season to invigorate your faith. Also, please pray for me and anyone else that you know of struggling with such temptations.

>>14756743

I used to listen to a lot of Catholic mystic books when I worked a warehouse job, I had terrible insomnia and I couldn't stop thinking about eternal hellfire. During that time everything felt like a dream, it was really uncanny but it might just be that I was depressed

>>14761097
Did you confess?

>>14761105

No, I still don't go to church except occasionally. I'm too scared to take the plunge into religion

>>14758857
>returned me to the faith
>"girlfriend"
Pick one and only one...

>>14758857
This sounds beautiful and has only furthered my faith that I am not worthy/ready to be in a relationship.

>>14758857
Cute.

>>14758857
>I intend to propose on the Feast of Annunciation with my grandmother's ring

>>14761107
What frightens you about it?

>>14758857
>I intend to propose on the Feast of Annunciation with my grandmother's ring
Very nice. My girlfriend and I will be visiting Assisi in about two weeks and I'll be proposing to her there. We're both Franciscans and Simone Weil was quite instrumental in my conversion, so visiting the birthplace of the Franciscans, particularly St. Clare's tomb (God brought me and her together in a very special relationship too), as well as the Porzuincola, where Weil prayed for the first time, will be a great privilege and a wonderful time to commit ourselves to God's calling to be married and to live as Franciscans.

>>14761133
I didn't choose. God chose. With God, all things are possible.

>>14761427
I thought that all Franciscans were consecrated religious?

>>14761107
Brother, go to mass. Please. I wish I had not forsaken my faith for a decade. I beg you to not make the same mistake.

>>14761437
You don't have to be a consecrated religious to be a follower of a particular charism, which is all I mean when I say we are Franciscans, we follow the Franciscan charism--prayer, penance, daily conversion.

>>14756682
Pico's Oration on the Dignity of Man. This man goes in deep into the Kabbalah and fuses it with Catholicism.

>>14761456
and there it is, heresy.

STOP PROMOTING HERESY

ESTOERISM IS EVIL

>>14761464
>ESTOERISM IS EVIL
Cringe.

>>14761427
>Simone Weil
Wasn't she a heretic?

>>14761424

I'm afraid that I would be wrong, and that it would hurt others in my life in some way

>>14761444

How have you changed since returning the the church?

>>14758857
>>14761427
Bros, please tell me this is actually possible in our age and is not just an elaborate LARP...

>>14761464
>I concede these are magnificent reasons, but they do not seem to go to the heart of the matter, that is, those reasons which truly claim admiration. For, if these are all the reasons we can come up with, why should we not admire angels more than we do ourselves? After thinking a long time, I have figured out why man is the most fortunate of all creatures and as a result worthy of the highest admiration and earning his rank on the chain of being, a rank to be envied not merely by the beasts but by the stars themselves and by the spiritual natures beyond and above this world. This miracle goes past faith and wonder. And why not? It is for this reason that man is rightfully named a magnificent miracle and a wondrous creation.

>>14761490
She certainly was, but she was also a profound Christian thinker at the same time. I think the best comparison is that Weil is a lot like Origen. Remarkable thinker, but put too much stock in their Platonism to the detriment of clear Biblical truth.

>>14761456
fuck off dumbass

>>14761447
I don't think we understand charism in the same way. What you describe appears to be to be the way of spiritual growth for all believers. The charism of St. Francis himself seems best summarized in radical poverty as a demonstration of ecumenical councils. To be sure, I would not ever want to diminish your love for St. Francis or your admiration for the many Franciscan orders, but it seems imprudent to me to describe yourself as a Franciscan if you are not actually a consecrated member of a Franciscan order. For one, it would seem to lead in the long run towards sectarianism; after all, although we might all have particular saints we turn to most for wisdom and intercession, we are not some of us of Paul, others of Peter, or others of Apollo, but we are all brothers in Christ.

>>14761493
>How have you changed since returning the the church?
So much. I am ashamed to still fail at times, but I honestly feel so fulfilled going to mass every Sunday. Go to confession, go to daily mass if you have time, and embrace the love and mercy of God.

But please, go. Furthermore, don't be discouraged when you fail. Satan has many tricks and we are weak. I hope the peace that Christ gives will fill your heart, brother. I'll pray for you and all the lost souls of the world.

>>14761495
I do not know how to demonstrate it without identifying myself, but I'm >>14758857, and it is all 100% true. Work on your faith, and God will help you with the rest. If you struggle with any anxiety or depression, I also strongly recommend a general confession. After Confessions, the most important book for me was Introduction to a Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales.

>>14761496
Imagine! The great generosity of God! The happiness of man! To man it is allowed to be whatever he chooses to be! As soon as an animal is born, it brings out of its mother’s womb all that it will ever possess. Spiritual beings from the beginning become what they are to be for all eternity. Man, when he entered life, the Father gave the seeds of every kind and every way of life possible. Whatever seeds each man sows and cultivates will grow and bear him their proper fruit. If these seeds are vegetative, he will be like a plant. If these seeds are sensitive, he will be like an animal. If these seeds are intellectual, he will be an angel and the son of God. And if, satisfied with no created thing, he removes himself to the center of his own unity, his spiritual soul, united with God, alone in the darkness of God, who is above all things, he will surpass every created thing. Who could not help but admire this great shape-shifter? In fact, how could one admire anything else? . . .

>>14757652
In 2017 I had a series of strange experiences, some of which were directly related to my faith (I'm a practicing Catholic). I am pretty sure God spoke to me in a dream, for starters. Additionally, once I went to Confession, and when I was kneeling in the very dark and silent church I heard bells ring. I also had a very strange encounter with a statue of Saint Jude, patron of the desperate. I passed it and it seemed very large, and then when I passed it again it had shrunk to a very small size, and when I passed the space where it had been a third time, it was gone.

Nothing like these things happened to me before or since. It was, again, very strange. I have a very active imagination and am generally able to project images with my mind's eye. But these definitely weren't me actively imagining things, they happened entirely of their own volition.

>>14761493
>I'm afraid that I would be wrong, and it would hurt others
That is an understandable and somewhat reasonable fear. It is in part true. If you were wrong, you might hurt others, and you would certainly hurt yourself. But, by that same logic, how do you know you are not wrong as you are now?

It would seem the beginning, and the most charitable course of action, would be to determine once and for all what is true. What is your greatest doubt?

>>14761536
>For one, it would seem to lead in the long run towards sectarianism; after all, although we might all have particular saints we turn to most for wisdom and intercession, we are not some of us of Paul, others of Peter, or others of Apollo, but we are all brothers in Christ.
Fair point

>>14761570
I am not the anon you were replying to, but >>14758857.

In all things, we ought to remember the words of Christ. What advice did he give us in discerning spirits? To judge them by their fruits. We also have from scripture and from tradition a general condemnation against taking dreams as signs or visions in and of themselves. It is only in exceptional cases that we ought to trust them, and only when we have other good signs.

So, by these experiences, would you say that your prayer life has improved, or worsened? Do you love God more now, or less? Is your faith stronger, or weaker? Have you noticed an improved zeal for the virtues, or has your composure weakened? Have these experiences led you to good, or to ill?

>>14761599
They've been very good to me in those regards. I actually feel like my faith is unshakable now. I don't think anything could ever destabilize my faith in Christ and the Church ever again, it feels as solid as iron.

I sometimes wonder if those things happened to me in 2017 to prepare me for how awful 2018 was, with the news about McCarrick and the Pennsylvania Grand Jury report. Maybe God sent me those signs to strengthen my faith in preparation, and so that I, in turn, might use my own faith to strengthen the faith of others, as well.

>>14761574
That said however, I truly do not wish to discourage any ounce of your faith or zeal. To take the Franciscan way of life as an inspiration and model for marriage and family seems like a very noble thing. Jesus also said that we ought to build all things on a good foundation; it would only make sense then, after these tumultuous decades, that we all try and build more and more of our private lives on the life of the Church, which is that good foundation. While those under Holy Orders are certainly in a more holy state on earth than the married, we cannot let them be merely a story or an idea that exists far from life. It would seem to me that as much as they are more perfect in life, we ought to seek to make the rest of life conform more and more closely to that divine standard.

>>14761610
It could be. Perhaps there is more meaning in them yet. Perhaps it was a miscalculation by some devil which your guardian angel was able to help you turn to great profit. Have you read The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola?

>>14761627
>That said however, I truly do not wish to discourage any ounce of your faith or zeal. To take the Franciscan way of life as an inspiration and model for marriage and family seems like a very noble thing
i appreciate that

>>14761490
She wasn't even Catholic, but she is a good writer/reader.

>>14761634
No. I keep meaning to read them, I know they're very powerful for discerning things like this.

>>14761678
Even if you only read the Rules for Discernment, I am sure you will find it very helpful. And remember, if you ever seem to struggle, if this or that devotion seems a bridge too far, turn to Mary.

this is the best catholic thread ive ever seen on this board, kudos to you all

>>14761570
I'm hearing auditory hallucinations and Alice wonderland syndrome if you have a progressive headache or unexplained weight loss please see a doctor. These are potentially brain tumor symptoms

>>14762241
Sure, Anon. Whatever you say.

>>14761853
Same here! I'm enjoying it. I am someone that was introduced to a lot of the mystics mentioned here through Merton. If any of you get a chance to stay at a Trappist monastery--take it! I've done it numerous times at two different abbeys.

Bump.

What are you reading during Lent? I'm about to finish Confessions and go to confession myself and will probably read Consolation of Philosophy next, and afterwards The Seven Storey Mountain because I have it sitting around.

>>14758857
>It has never been easier in all of human history to love God.

>>14764577
I'm probably going to read Revelation. I've been reading a book of the Bible every Lent for the last couple of years.

Friendly reminder to my fellow Catholics that the only Bible that is acceptable needs to be the following:
- A translation of the Vulgate.
- Accepted by the Catholic Church.
- And it NEEDS to have commentaries by the Fathers of the Church.
I now that this is very hard to find nowadays, but please find such a Bible and stop reading garbage translations.

>>14764869
lmfao. Like I'm going to follow the word of a bunch of pedos who used their religious superiority to guilt kings to bend the knee. I read my Old testament in Ancient Hebrew and my New testament in Greek. Enjoy your watered down ideas provided by shit translators (there is a lot of evidence on how they mistranslated many things which gave birth to wrong ideas/interpretations, see the Reformation period).

>>14764899
>hebrew
Enjoy getting cucked by rabbis.

>>14756743
>Mysticism isn't something you can just get into because you're curious
actually, you can. go ahead and try to stop me

>>14764905
We live in an age of mass information. I didn't have to get my foreskin sliced to learn the language.

>>14764869
>A translation of the Vulgate.
No
>Accepted by the Catholic Church.
Yes
>And it NEEDS to have commentaries by the Fathers of the Church.
Not necessary but it's nice to have
Many priests study with La Bible de Jérusalem. it's a great translation from the sources guided by the Nova Vulgata

>>14756682
Saint of ice skating recount by Thomas Kemphis. Show how fucked christianity is
https://discord.gg/X5uk75G

>>14765130
>Many priests
Yes, but not you, you need commentaries.

>>14765267
elaborate

>>14765273
why? if you insist so much on that at least explain your point. I mean, you don't usually see people reading a commented bible

What if i want to believe but don’t know how

>>14765473
>why?
That's what the Catholic Church says (or at least used to say), not me.

>>14758857
reads like a copypasta, but I'm happy for you if true.

>>14764869
Terrible post. Why does it need to be from the Vulgate? Were all Bibles invalid prior to the Vulgate?

>>14766552
The vulgate is the authoratative bible of the Catholic Church. There are other great bibles, and the koine is quite beautiful. But, all Church teaching since the vulgate has used the vulgate as its reference. It is the lens with which to read all other bibles. The authority of the vulgate is extraordinary magisterium, if not plain dogma.

>>14765730
It is not something to lie about and I only sincere post.

>>14767820
That explains the twist they did to the text. Good thing the reformation happened.

>>14765515
Pray three Our Fathers and ask God to give you faith. Of all things, do you think God would deny this prayer?

>>14767831
Do you know anything about bible history?

>>14767839
Not in depth but I do know the problems of translation.
You see the three books there? It's the Hebrew old testament, and the Greek/Latin new testament. This is St. Jerome who tasked himself to correct the current Latin New Testament (which would become the LATIN VULGATE by his pen) because he knew the current one lacked the nuance that the old provides. This he did by uniting the old Hebrew tradition, which he learned from Jewish scholars, with the new Christian one.
1000 years later in Germany, Catholic born Johann Reuchlin was instructed by the Dominican Order to burn Jewish works which he refused to do and almost had himself killed by your lovely church. Like St. Jerome, he also believed that the old tradition had something to say but was ignored by the current, dogmatic Catholic Church. Naturally, His friends defended him by calling him the new St. Jerome.
Then Luther came into the picture.

>>14767912
>indulgences
Just give the Church money and we will save you a seat in Heaven.

>>14758804
Cool story bud but what if I told you that I dont hate women or minorities, have a gf(who is a different race than myself), and it was God who took away my prejudices and brought a wonderful woman into my life(along with many other gifts, most of which manifested thanks to being involved with his Holy Catholic Church)? Projecting your own flaws onto others doesn't fix them. Give your life up to the Lord and he will turn your flaws into strengths.
Also yes you successfully baited me and it was even low quality bait.

>>14767912
Reuchlin was generally defended by the church in Rome, the trouble he got into was a lot of squabbling with a local German anti-Jewish Dominican. It's stupid to assign local borderline political issues to some Church-wide suppression of Hebrew documents.
Either way, the idea that the hebrew sources contain some distinct knowledge lost in the septuagint is fallacious. (Not something Jerome or Reuchlin would've believed, but a lot of Protestants strongly oppose the use of the Greek sources) They're of similar age, and the dead sea scrolls indicate that some of the books taken as apocryphal by Protestants existed in Hebrew in the time of Christ.

>>14767959
Your first point I'll grant you because I was ignorant on that.
Your second point, I meant that the New Testament had to be seen with the Jewish perspective to extract the meaning fully, not that it had its own distinct knowledge. It's like reading Homer without having the background of Hesiod, in translation.

>>14764899
>I read my Old testament in Ancient Hebrew
in a reconstructed conlang translation of the Septuagint*

>>14764869
>my fellow Catholics
>Vulgate
Woudln't true non-schismatic Catholics use the original Greek and not a translation?

>>14767959
>the idea that the hebrew sources contain some distinct knowledge lost in the septuagint is fallacious
Hebrew is literally a sacred language, no Greek non-semitic tongue could ever match the full depth of meaning conveyed in Hebrew. You see this even when translating into English from another vulgar language. That being said, it's truly a shame that no human alive currently knows about the original Hebrew sources.

>>14758857
>mary worshipper

ur going to hell

>>14756743
>Mystics such as Padre Pio even report being beaten bodily by demons.
Can confirm, have been attacked by demons.

>>14766552
>>14768282
What the fuck is wrong with you, the Vulgate is the authoritative text. There is no "original", they were lost, but Jerome had them. That's why you should read it.
The Vulgate is the only one free from mistakes, as it was established in the council of Trent, and confirmed by Pius XII.

>>14768562
>Pius XII
But anon, he was a schismatic and is thus not to be trusted. Read the Septuagint, it is infallible and free from all error.

>>14768609
>he was a schismatic
I can't even distinguish baits from retards anymore.

>>14768417
>he can't distinguish worship from devotion
the absolute state of this board

>>14768671
this dude is clearly a mary worshipped though

>>14758857
>Read as many holy books as you can
So.. you mean read the Bible as many times as you can?

>>14768709
catholics don't read the bible

>>14756682
Become a monk. Christian mysticism is basically completely useless since it is in no way needed for salvation or the Christian life so you'll only get it through the life of an ascetic.

>>14758712
Brother, I can guarantee that I've nutted in more women than you have. Sex can be healthy and promote goodness, but what I was doing was only degrading myself and furthering the degradation of women.
I haven't been with someone sexually in over 2 years and I've been in relationships where I could have had sex but decided that it wasn't the woman or the relationship I truly want.There's more to life than hedonism and nihilism, it's hard to see and you may have to endure pain to get the strength to see grace, but we should all stand brave as grateful life livers.


>>14765515
I don't think anyone can truly believe all the time. I struggle daily, sometimes even minute to minute with my faith, but maybe it's because I've lived such a sinful life that it's easy for me to imagine hell on Earth but diffuclt to see heaven. i recommend starting with the psalms in thoughtful meditation and prayer. Maybe try reading Ecclesiastes or any book from the OT. I started reading the Bible purely because I grew tired of how many authors referenced it in someway.

I have a question for anyone who may feel like answering at the moment, this seems like the right thread based on the good responses from everyone so far.

Is there a way to square spirituality that you "know" to be true with the teachings of the Church which seem to be in contradiction with this spirituality? I consider myself a Catholic, as much as I can be these days. I was raised Catholic, left the church for many years, and through a long and convoluted process found God again and eventually found the Church again. My problem is this: they very same process that brought me back to the Church and the same mystical experiences that lead me to Christ also showed me that there is more to the bigger picture than what is contained within church Doctrine. For example, reincarnation is at least partially valid, as far as I can tell. For me to deny this is to open my path to Christ to equal doubt and scrutiny, but it seems like both cannot be true.

I think of Simone Weil frequently, as she seemed to be in a similar position of being drawn to the faith yet unable to fully participate in the faith, and I think of what she has said about paradox being the sign of true presence. I pray the rosary, I pray novenas, I attend mass (although not every week), and I try to study the word of God frequently. I want nothing more than to come to a better understanding of God, but what I have so far seems to make this impossible for ever being a true Catholic.

Is it possible to retain my Catholic faith while also respecting the equally "real" non-Catholic aspects of God that I have come to know simultaneously? If any anons have anything to add, it would be appreciated, this troubles me deeply.

>>14767912
Almost none of that is true. The Pope asked St. Jerome. There was not "a" Bible anywhere. The Old Latin did not represent a singular work, but hundreds of slightly different texts each with a different set of books. Bishops had asked the Pope to do something, because the lack of uniformity was leading to difficulties. The entire Christian world was almost entirely unaware of the Masoretic texts, because it was developed after Jesus, and almost never left a synogogue. Those who were aware rejected it, for it had obviously come after Christ, while the Septuagint had been the standard for centuries. Hundreds of years after Jerome, after Islamic conquest, many more Jews had come to live in Europe. Eventually a Jewish rabbi converted, and he told the Pope that the Talmud contained blasphemous descriptions of Christ. This man was the first to translate the Talmud, and up to that point almost no Christian had known it existed at all. Needless to say, the Church was shocked. The Pope invited three Jewish rabbis to debate against the convert. The Pope did not find them convincing, so odered the burning of the Talmud. Almost none of this has anything to do with Luther. At first, Luther so almost nothing to change. It was only in light of real corruption that Luther began to think something was wrong. After deciding that certain non-dogmatic practices were not valid, he came to an extreme view of Fide and to Sola Scriptura--which is a rejection of Sacred Tradition. He believed that if the Church had followed the texts more closely, none of the corruption would have existed. After deciding that Sacred Tradition was not valid, he came to realize he needed to rejustify which scriptures were scripture; very little changed, except he was the first to use the Masoretic texts instead of thr Septuagint, and so removed 7 books (some which include the strongest prefigurations of Christ and Mary.) Of course, Luther was only able to accomplish this through the funding of northern princes who did not like Papal authority, and this rebellion led to three centuries of war--christian against christian--and now there are some 30,000 different protestant sects who all use different translations of the Bible and have come to completely different theological conclusions based on the idea that scripture must be taken literallt and can be interpreted by the individual. Jesis tought us how to know good from bad spirits--judge them by their fruits. The fruits of Luther have been dissension, sectarianism, warfare, confusion, heresy, apostacy, and all kinds of evil.

>>14767994
The Church is the only one who has maintained the ancient Jewish perspective. Rabbinical judaism clearly does not follow the ancient perspective. It is obviously flawed to think we ought to take into account the perspective of those who did not convert to establish our dogma. All the Apostles were jewish. Do you think they simply forgot the Jewish tradition? One of the greatest struggles of the early church was to maintain traditions without becoming an exclusive Jewish sect. The entire Catholic liturgy is clearly developed out of Jewish Temple worship.

>>14769164
>Rabbinical judaism clearly does not follow the ancient perspective.
Why not? Christians don't even follow the dietary laws.

>>14768417
You should read True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. It is very clearly written, and afterward you will have a good sense of what Marian devotion really is.

>>14768886
Brother, only the Devil wants you to despair. If your past weighs heavy on your coscience, and you have not already done one, I strongly reccommend a general confession. By examining your entire life of sin from your first sin until now, you are given a very clear pocture of yourself. While it might seem beforehand to increase your despair, it will actually give a remarkably powerful sens of God's patience and mercy. I guarantee that afterword God will shower you in graces. The kind of doubt you describe is not natural. God wants you to rely on him more. Pray for greater faith.

>post2016/lit/ discusses linguistics

>>14769097
Friend, you are standing in a very difficult place. While the the Church has left many things unsettled, the Church has also already closed many doors. It cannot be that the Church is right about some things and wrong about others, where dogma is concerned. However, since you are not yet fully in the faith, I understand your hesitance to submit to the authority of the Church. So many claim authority falsely these days, it often seems wiser to trust in ourselves. I would like to suggest to you a little test. This is not dogmatic, and it is something of my own making, but it so far I have found it very useful. Whatever dosagreement you have with the Church, take your position and the Church's position and draw a line from each to the Body of Christ in the Womb of Mary. That is, try to reconcile whatever belief you have with The presence of uncreated God given human flesh in the womb of a created woman. Then try and conform your position to the crucifixion. Which position, yours or the Church's, give greater glory to God? And by that I mean, which explanation makws God greater and more loving, and man weaker and more needing of God's mercy? Which is most compatible with the Chritological and Marian dogmas? My guess is that, if taken honestly, whichever position is in contradiction to Church teaching--that one will either be incompatible with the Christological and Marian dogmas, or else will diminish their love and glory to the point of making the whole things seem kind of arbitrary. Essentially, I can all but guarantee that every heresy has as it's ultimate goal the removal of Christ from the cross. The devil has no greater desire on earth, and nothing protects the humanity and the divinity of Christ and his suffering like Mary; in this sense at least, it truky is the Woman who crushes the head of the serpent.

>>14764908
No, I won't stop you. However, know that if you are living in sin and try to get into this stuff you will first come to a very painful awareness of your nature as a totally depraved sinner, and soon every time you habitually commit sins which you previously saw as minor you will know that you are wilfully acting against God and squandering the free gift of life that He gave you. Eventually you may reach a dark abyss of self loathing as you cannot reconcile your sinful desires, which you willingly allow and participate in solely for they pleasure you find in them, and the desire of your soul, union with God, which burns the heart of the sinner. In effect you will tear yourself apart, and will either die in Christ, suffer His Cross, rise again, and repent, or you will be unable to reconcile your sinful and righteous desires and will fall into insanity.
Understand also that demons are watching your every move and would love nothing more than to push you off course, and subtly tempt you into heresy or the practice of magic. To practice mysticism is to be able to discern truth with your heart, and an impure heart is clouded and apt to hear what it wants to hear rather than hear difficult truths.
Again, I highly suggest that you confess your sins, receive communion, and live a Christian life before you attempt to enter into further things.

>>14768464
If you're serious, mind telling us more?

>>14769169
The Acts and the Epistles clearly explain why certain traditions were done away with and why the Law is no longwr satisfactory. Jesus spends most of his time discussing this very issue, explaining that the covenent is not sufficient--that one is not justified by works of the law--but that it is faith which saves, and it is only the works of law as actions of faith that are satisfactory. If a Jew rejects Christ than what explanation can be given for abandoning the Law? What has made it void? As Christians, we say the old covenant is broken because thr High Priesr Caiaphas literally denied God to his face and had him killed in order to preserve the earthly nation of Israel, thereby ending the agreement between God and his people, this rupture being realized in Christ's death and resurrection, and being further symbolized by the tearing of the Temple Veil (which also symbolized other things). If this is not accepted, then what cause can be given to reject even a single letter of the Law? If Christ was not, then Caiaphas was right to have him killed, and therefore the covenant still belongs to the Jewish people. As such, they ought to do what was always asked of them in oppression and exile--make sacrifices, biry the dead, and be reformed to the Law. This has not been done. The Talmud has not taught this. Israel has not been given them by miraculous victory, but by conspiracy. Hence, the Temple Mount itself remains unpossessed. Not trusting God, they will not have it until they destroy Islam. How will they do this? Catholocism offers a new covenant, and Judaism does not. We have a reason for leaving the Old Law, and they do not.

>>14769220
This is why the most common phrase of the Sapiential book is "the fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom." Solomon himself laments the unmatchable folly of approaching any knowledge of God with pride. By pride, the Devil will guide souls to the most subtle errors. It is important to understand, his goal is not to make the workd ugly or licentious or murderous; his goal is to steal souls from heaven. If he can do this by leading them to a seemingly minor error, all the better. Someond with knowledge and who practices mortifications will not be drawn in by grandiose hedonism. Ah, but how easy to inflame their pride and consume their prayers. How easy to transform a penitential sinner into a hypocritical pharisee. Knowledge puffeth a man up, but humility is the seat of all virtues.

Guys I'm catholic but don't believe that demons are real in the sense of entities inhabiting the world. I think of them more of bad circuits in our brain that guides us towards evil

>>14769303
Brother, be careful. The bad circuits you describe--that is our concupisence. That is the effect of sin, which is a disordering if our body and spirit. This is what makes it so that our sense and emotions are. ot always oriented towards Gid, and it is this which creates a conflict between our will and our desires. These are not demons, but demons use these flaws and work to inflame them. While demons are part of dogma little is known of them, and the Church has largely stopped speaking of them in recent years. Although, the Vatican catechism has a relatively good description of the fall. Perhaps the most essential thing to understand about all angels, both good and bad, is that they are beings with will and intelligence, but no bodies. They do not have earthly, corporeal form. Rather as spiritual beings only, they interact with us only by spirit. That is, they appear to our mind in much the same way as grace does, but towatds the opposite end. They attack and oppress the mind. At times, they can assault your senses, for these are the lowest and most concuscible parts of us, but they have no direct influence on our intellect. So, while your understanding of it doesn't seem entirely right, the experience of demonic activity will henerally appear as you describe, as some malfunctioning of our brain, introducing harmful thoughts or images, guiding us subtly (or maybe not so subtly) towards evil. You might be very interested in The Spiritual Excercise of St. Ignatius. Also, despite its reputation, the Summa Theologica is most excellent for these things. St. Thomas is not called the Angelic Doctor for nothing. The moral theology and apologetics are really secondary to his understanding of heavenly things.

>>14769303

I've heard of the idea that demons are inter dimensional, in the sense that they exist outside of reality but can enter into your thoughts

>>14769303
read An Exorcist Tells His Story

>>14769355
It would seem you're trying to describe the spiritual from a material perspective. The spiritual is just as real as the material. We have both spiritual and material being. Demons have only spiritual being (by nature at least). They can influence our senses, emotions, and intellect, but our will is always our own. Most often, they introduce thoughts which they know will either enflame your concuscible senses, stir up emotions in order to subvert reason, or else provoke doubt. One really ought not to explore demonology, however, unless accomponied by a rigorous prayer life. Speaking from experience, you cannot outrun the devil.

>>14757642
what is your profession that you know all these books?

>>14769216
Thank you for your response.

>It cannot be that the Church is right about some things and wrong about others, where dogma is concerned.
This is the part which troubles me, because I know that, following Chesterton, if there are things I once thought to be false that I now know to be true contained within the Church, it seems a fair bet that the parts I struggle with could be similarly illuminated in the future. However, as I said, to dismiss one set of beliefs because it does not conform to dogma seems completely arbitrary insofar as both beliefs have come from the same experience of God.

I think your test is an interesting one, and strangely, I don't think that any of my more syncretic leanings diminish at all from the necessity of Christ as incarnation or the sacrifice on the cross. Likewise with Mary as Theotokos. I fully accept all of this in the sense it is intended. If I may clarify, I believe that we are born with a certain telos, a certain calling from God, which may manifest in any number of ways. Certain people are called to the vocation of clergy, some find their worship and adoration through the natural sciences, etc. My only divergence with Church dogma on this issue is (and it is a simple disagreement but a large one) that I believe this telos is not limited to one human life. We are the same soul as God created from start to finish, but our full expression may take time. There is every reason to treat each life as our last, since we don't know where we are at any given point, so functionally it doesn't get anyone off the hook with a "better luck next time". Counting on tomorrow in the sense of a reincarnation is no different than counting on tomorrow for today's sins in Catholicism: a bad bet. I have not reasoned myself into these positions to begin, nor is this even necessarily what I "want". The Church seems to be the best venue to approach God but I believe the fullness of God is much larger and less comprehensible than Canon law can apprehend. My intention is not to seem defensive, but rather, to show that your suggestion is taken in good faith but only seems to get me deeper in confusion given the particular heresy being discussed.

>>14762282
I'd second that, don't take yourself seriously in the slightest, get checked, get something tangible in your life, move on.

>>14758857
yep I believe this happened

>>14758857
>I would prefer twelve diamonds, but do not think I can afford it
That's a real shame, god would have loved for you to enrich the De Beers family considering they are god's chosen people. Sad!

>>14769687
If this thread is still alive when I get back home this evening, maybe I will add a photo of the ring.

>>14769585
You might not see the contradiction at first, but this approach essentially destroys the mystery, meaning, and the importance of the hypostatic union. Christ in one person with a fully human nature and a fully divine nature which have no admixture. If this formation is rejected, then the incarnation itself is destroyed as a concept. Suddenly Christ is not God and Man, and therefore it is not meaningful that he died on the Cross, for either he is not fully God or he is not fully Man. If he is not fully and distinctly both, then we have no bridge to divine participation. Communion itself is then meaningless. While you seem to have accepted this view of things because you do not see how it immediately effects a righteous way of living, it effectively contradicts the most essential christological mysteries. After all, we must consider that God's plan and desire is not that Man might have a well ordered society and live peacably; God's will is that we know and love him above all things. Christ came to give us life. The seven sacraments are the direct presence of God in our lives, and these sacred rites are our primary vehicle for sanctification. Without the sacraments, we will be lost. Once we have a full appreciation for the sacraments we ought to recognize that course of human history is not one of sociological or technological development, but of spiritual development. Satan wants to destroy humanity and seperate us from God, and God wants as many people to love and know him as are willing. Now that Christ has come, Satan's primary objective is the destruction of the sacraments. Certain prophecies even seem to suggest that the end of days will come when a false eucharist is set upon the alter. For when we take communion, we literally take into ourselves the divine substance. Moses never had such a grace. The spiritual power is beyond imagining. Understood in terms of this spiritual warfare, we see that history is nothing more nor less than a battle over the Eucharist. Satan expends all his energy and gathers all his legions to find his way between man and God. This is why I proposed my test. If the nature of Christ is changed so as to subtract from the crucifixion, then the sacrifice of the mass is rendered meaningless. The glory and mercy of God is demonstrated best by his condescension to us in order that we might live. The more we humble ourselves before his presence, the more we glorify him. Mary is like a seal, guarding these divine mysteries. For, if we are reincarnated in different bodies, then the body becomes only a vessel. If it is only a vessel, then what importance is there to the body of Christ himself. And if Christ's body was only a vessel for God, then what does that make Mary, who we call the Ark of the New Covenant. Would not Christ's body be the new ark? It is only if each body is unique to each soul, the body being seamlessly interwoven with the soul, that the Body of Christ becomes itself part of the divinity.

>>14769471
I'm not the one you're responding to, but in the advent of the internet, these books are not difficult to know about. Almost all these books have played an essential role in the development of the Church. With some exceptions, they are literally the classics of the monastic tradition. There was a time when these books would have been the most prominent part of many seminary libraries. While moral theology and apologetics have drawn the most public and secular attention, the church has literally 2000 years of theological writing which mostly pertain to other questions. While important for all, moral theology and apologetics are in many ways the least important areas of study for those who are already devout believers. What moral questions must a Monk seriously ponder for their own sake after they have already taken the ecumenical councils? If you have sworn yourself to a life of poverty, chastity, and obedience, what great moral questions remain that are not already provided for in the scriptures? Therefore, the vast bulk of spiritual writings and the greatest in quality have more to do with aligning one's will with God, praying well, discerning spirits, the fundamentals of contemplation, effective devotions, and so on. The more you study spiritual things, the more you will realize that the books which have taken up most of the public conversation of secular schools are so very far away from the books which really matter. No monk spends time with Descartes. If Descartes or Kierkegaard have any value, it is only to the non-believer. And so it is only to those outside the Church and concerned with things outside the Church that place any importance on them. Almost all the philosophical questions secular philosophers have grappled with are already answered, if one only has the humility to accept the Church.

Bump

Brothers, do any of you feel called to the single life? I am beginning to suspect that it is my calling and it feels so bittersweet. I am getting too old and too settled in a career for holy orders, and too abbrassive for the married life. Why must I feel so alone in this life? :(

bump.

>>14756932
You might want to get that arrow taken care of, milady.

>>14758712
I will pray for you anon.

What Catholic writers have you guys been reading lately?

I've been reading some John Henry Newman ever since he was declared a saint. He's a very penetrating and insightful thinker. He's one of those guys where, even though he wrote so long ago, what he says seems pertinent to the modern world.

>>14769714
The De Beers family doesn't own the company and they're not Jewish, they're Dutch,

>>14769229
Take Jung's words, there is a grave evil force lying behind man which we do not know what it is and never really will, but it can come about by peering into these cracks.

You wont be prepared for the experience until after it, but be well anon.

>>14773043
Careful with Jung. He essentially reintroduced medieval hermetical tradition to the Modernism.

>>14773043
>Jung
Retroactively refuted profane garbage.

>>14756682
>The Plot Against The Catholic Church -- Maurice Pinay
>>14758804
The feeling of disquiet introduced by an apprehension of evil's pervasive existence as a force in the world does wonders for strength of faith.

Bump

>>14771104
God doesn't call for the single life, it is not a vocation to have. Why won't you try and be a brother of an order? Age is not usually an impediment if you're wondering

>>14774374
meant for >>14771905

>>14772979
>he still doesn't know about the [[[Low Country]]]

You know how Christ descended into hell? Is it heretical to believe that the harrowing of hell could possibly include all those who died in ignorance of the church, that Christ would give them a last chance to accept or reject the truth?

>>14774374
That's incorrect. Consecrated single life is declared a vocation by the Catholic Church

>>14775236
No, it's generally considered that virtuous pagans who died before Christ and those without knowledge of the Church were taken to Limbo

>>14775242
well if you add Consecrated meaning you take the vows then it's not just simple 'single life', is it?

>>14769285
>Humility is the seat of all virtues
I disagree with that. I believe courage is the root of all virtues (and vices), otherwise you are a Christian to a point. Without courage, you will be cowed by someone with a larger stick, or by the crowd into doing things you know that are sinful.

>>14768417
It's called V E N E R A T I O N you daft cunt, not worship.

Most Catholic mysticism is neurotic Bhakti yoga which they don’t have the sense to admit is Bhakti yoga because “other religions are heretical and temptations from the devil.” They derange themselves with hyper-emotional apparitions and visions, subtly feel superior to others while claiming to be humble Christians, and focus too much on heaven and hell.

Some of them are so focused on “humility” and “penance” that they ironically become extremely vain without even noticing it. It’s nuts. I’m sorry to offend but it’s really nuts.

Meister Eckhart is great, though.

>>14775253
>Limbo
I don't accept this false doctrine though.

>>14775253
Limbo is not something the church teaches.

>>14757642
Someone make this into a chart please

>>14771905
I know that feel, I'm discerning a vocation to the priesthood, and the call is real. However, I always feel really lonely. The reason why I ended up discerning in the first place is because a girl I really liked rejected me, and I never found anyone else who I thought could match up to her.

>>14775707
>“other religions are heretical and temptations from the devil.”
This has never been the attitude of Christians. They have always taken what was true and good from the pagans and they perfected it.

>>14756682
>believe in god
>read the old and new testaments
>fasting
there you are on your way to becoming a mystic now

>>14775845
Fair point, but the focus on the historical uniqueness of Christ is a huge barrier to most of them actually appreciating other religions.

>go to confession after after not going for a decade
>go to mass today
>cheesiest song I have ever heard played during communion
>as i sit down notice the lyrics
>"today starts the rest of your life"
God definitely has a sense of humor