/lit/ - Literature

>>14675000
No. It simply cant be refuted

where to start with this blind & bullied buffoon.

>>14675014
>Metaphysical solipsism
blocks your way

>>14675053
That just proves you are a schizo. Take pills

>>14675000
Materialism is self-refuting

>>14675088
prove. it.
by prove it I mean write out, in propositional form, a refutation of it that is cogent and rationally coherent. it should be easy for you, given your assertion.

>>14675072
>That just proves you are a schizo. Take pills
I guess you don't know what schizophrenia is and what are the symptoms.

Mind cannot conclude whether external reality exists or not, it's the matter of choosing it as an axiom, both solipsism and materialism cannot be proven/refuted, that's why op posted Godel here, I guess.

Materialism is just better assumption because it is easier to work with.

>>14675023
Gödel Escher Bach is a decent introduction if you don’t mind major digression.

>>14675123
>The philosopher Mary Midgley states that the idea that nothing exists except matter is also self-refuting because if it were true neither it, nor any other idea, would exist, and similarly that an argument to that effect would be self-refuting because it would deny its own existence.[11][page needed] Several other philosophers also argue that eliminative materialism is self-refuting.[12][page needed][13][14]
>However, other forms of materialism may escape this kind of argument because, rather than eliminating the mental, they seek to identify it with, or reduce it to, the material.[15] For instance, identity theorists such as J. J. C. Smart, Ullin Place and E. G. Boring state that ideas exist materially as patterns of neural structure and activity.[16][17] Christian apologist J.P. Moreland states that such arguments are based on semantics.[18][page needed]

>>14675183
>Gödel Escher Bach
masturbation for smart-wannabes

>>14675182
>Mind cannot conclude whether external reality exists or not

Thanks for proving my point.

>>14675204
nothing in my sentece proves your point

>>14675221
>Mind cannot conclude whether external reality exists or not

>>14675240
this proves what?

>>14675272
If mind can't conclude whether external reality exists or not that blows out idealism and all you're left with is the material conditions as the driving force

>>14675298
https://vocaroo.com/8kCHt4ELkj0

>>14675298
well...
>let me assume material conditions exists as driving force (and mind within it)
>all you're left with is the material conditions as the driving force
-the proof

>>14675000
No, that would be Guénon (pbuh), who incidentally provided a retroactive refutation of G*del as well.

>>14675360
>literally every pseud idea I disagree with guenon has refuted
Holy based...
How does he keep getting away with it?

>>14675391
he doesn't it's just there are many pseuds on this board who attribute to him much more than he actually deserves credit for

>>14675402
I've double checked each claim of refutation so far and it seems to be legit. He destroyed philosophy... I still can't fully process that fact.

>>14675186
>eliminative materialism is self-refuting
No shit. It leads to absurdities—hence why it's widely rejected. However, there are other, more popular forms of materialism, such as reductive materialism and non reductive materialism.
Not even a "materialist," just pointing this shit out.

>>14675186
>>The philosopher Mary Midgley states that the idea that nothing exists except matter is also self-refuting because if it were true neither it, nor any other idea, would exist, and similarly that an argument to that effect would be self-refuting because it would deny its own existence

What? No, objects can exist without thought as a reference. Thought arises and changes due to matter, due to the outside automatically.

>>14675435
>>14675391
>>14675360
stop samefagging

>>14675489
>samefagging
Baseed!

>>14675489
I'm sorry you find it hard to believe that people here appreciate guenon's help in destroying pseudery.

>>14675360
>>14675391
B A S E D

>>14675123
It's the insistence that only the phenomenal world exists. A world only of objects without subjects. We cannot escape from the subject object dualism, if we attempt to annul the one we are still left with the other. And since we can only conceive of the world as cognizing subjects since this is what we are, in attempting to annul subjects the materialist inverts objects into subjects. A world of phenomenal subjects is logically just bizarre, but it's why materialists see the material world acting on humans instead of the other way around.

>>14675608
>We cannot escape from the subject object dualism

You sure about that chief?

>>14675608
>world only of objects without subjects. We cannot escape from the subject object dualism

Indians proved his wrong thousands of years ago. Still to this day people prove this wrong

>>14675608
>We cannot escape from the subject object dualism
Repeat yourself.

>>14675656
>>14675643
>>14675630
stupid fucking subcontinent

>>14675672
Please try to be more intelligent when using /lit/.

>>14675672
>ignorant first worlder

>>14675630
>>14675643
>>14675656

>>14675720
>first world suburbanite

No one cares about some Indians that have nothing to do with what we are discussing

>>14675000
No
No one did, which is why materialism is, to this day, the reigning worldview among leading intellectuals.

>>14676098
>No one did
ahem...

>>14675000
What he refuted was a specific form of formalism proposed by David Hilbert.

>>14676106
Dead meme from last year

>>14675182
Schizo

>>14676165
Yes.

>>14675014
So where do numbers come from?
No one empiricist has yet produce a handful of the #4.

>proves that God exists

How will fedora tippers ever recover?

>>14675123
The only way to observe and measure material is to be material. Materialist epistemology is purely limited by our ontological ability i.e. the Material Universe only exists the extent that humanity can sense it.
Yet there is epistemology that exists and is true while not being material; particularly a priori truths. Mathematics will hold true in all realities irregardless of if were here to rationalize it or if the universe even materially exists. It's a transcendental truth.

One could even argue that the basic substrate of reality on which the Material Universe exists on, is built on a truthful and reliable metaphysics of mathematics; it's why 2+2 doesn't randomly change to equal 5 or 3.142, or why gravity doesn't arbitrary decide to function or not.
No one ever bothers to look down bellow their feet and ask what is the foundation holding up all this material in the first place. So it puts material empiricists in tough spot: admit that something exists that can never be measured and isn't matter, or just ignore that inconvenient truth and to just "Shut up and calculate".

>>14676165
You just get worse with every post

>>14675468
>reductive materialism
Also leads to absurdities. Nothing is more obnoxious than debating with "a pile of cells" who reduce freewill to "chemical reactions". It's all bad faith arguing to uphold a flawed universal outlook.