/lit/ - Literature

>>14651153
>Sharia limits wives to four, but he had more
Correct, that is because the limit is in the Surah an-Nur, which was only revealed three years before the Prophet ﷺ died, that is, after he had married all his wives. After the limit of four wives was revealed, it was revealed that Muhammad ﷺ could keep the wives he had, but that he was to take no more, and that his limit was not above others because even if he divorced some of his wives he could not take more (Qur’an 33:52).

>the stories are bad
It's mostly pslam-like prayers and legal injunctions. The narratives, mostly overlapping with the Bible but sometimes with other prophets, are not by any means bad, although they are narrated by Allah ﷻ, and so give a different perspective. If you read a good English interpretation like Pickthall or Arberry, you will find the narrations have much literary quality.

>Trinity
The Qur'an never suggests Mary (may Allah be pleased with her) is worshiped as part of the Trinity. It does accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary (may Allah be pleased with her) and Jesus (alayhe salam) alongside Allah ﷻ in 5:116, but this is not the verse which criticizes the Trinity; the verse criticizing the Trinity is the one which attack those who say *Allah ﷻ is three* (5:171).

>IslamQA.com
There is no such site, he means islamqa.info. This is an extremely popular fatwa site, I personally really like it, but it should be known it is very much and explicitly a Salafi fatwa site. There are other major, non-Salafi fatwa sites to use, like islamweb.net, seekersguidance.org and islamqa.ORG

>>14651171
>I've have read such and such
He is lying, for example he refers to the four maddhabs, or schools of fiqh (jurisprudence) as Sharia "codes". These schools are not codes, they are different methodologies for arriving at rulings. There are maybe two codes in Sharia (and this is arbitrary and artificial, not part of Sharia itself), fiqh al-‘ebadat (what deals with ritual, purification, prayer, worship, and so forth) and fiqh al-mu’amalat wa al-adaab ashshar’eyah (this deals with law, social obligation, everyday morals, etc). Of the penal code, there are three elements: Hudud (this deals with adultery, theft, blasphmey, and so forth), Qisas (retribution, an eye-for-an-eye, this deals with murder, abortion, manslaughter, battery, and so on), and Tazir (things that aren’t covered under either of the prior two but should clearly be illegal, such as pornography). Besides the penal code there are lots of elements to Sharia like tax rules and financial regulation (selling unripe fruit for example is illegal). There is however no division of four codes, and even the four schools are only the major ones (Zahiri is a very minor but sometimes influential fifth school, and other schools have come and gone).

>Islam was a political system invented for accruing power
False. Revelation of the Qur'an started many years before the Prophet held or expected to hold a position of power. He and the Ummah were persecuted for many years in Mecca, facing boycotts and other hardship for just practicing their faith. His first wife, Khadija, may Allah be pleased with her, died from this, which he said was the worst year of his whole life. One night his enemies were fed up with waiting and paid assassins to kill him in his sleep. He escaped and fled to Medina, which is where he became established as leader, having a widespread reputation for fairness in arbitration. He established a constitution for the city which brought all the tribes and religions into a mutual defense pact that they would band together against an outside attack; quarrels between families or tribes or Jews and Christians would be arbitrated by him. This is when the first Qur’anic legal precepts began to be revealed, although they only applied to Muslims; other religions he governed according to their own laws.

>>14651188
>he can have all the wives he wants
No, it doesn’t say that, I already addressed this.

>he can have all the female slaves he wants
Any Muslim can, provided she is enslaved in a halal way (through jihad). You are free to have sex with her, however her chastity is protected (24:33). She and slaves in general must be clothed and fed as well as their masters are (Sahih Muslim 4092). If she converts, she cannot be a concubine and you must marry her. If she bears a child, she cannot be sold, and must be either freed or supported as a lifetime concubine and becomes free upon your death; all her children with her master are legally free and legitimate.

>he’s always right
That’s not true at all, verses 8:67-68 are the voice of Allah ﷻ sharply rebuking Muhammad’s ﷺ actions. The Prophet ﷺ is completely correct on doctrine and the paragon of men, the superlative man, but he was still a man, he made mistakes. By calling him “perfect” we don’t mean infallible or inerrant, just that none of his teachings were false and his is the nonpareil of humanity.

>forbid paintings, poetry, music
He forbid iconography (including depictions of prophets), not painting in general. Although what qualifies as iconography is disputed, it’s universally held to include any depiction of prophets; stricter interpretations hold it be any depiction of humans or animals (anything visibly animate), others simply lifelike, realistic depiction (which normally actually excludes photography as that’s generally ruled as a reflection, although not all say photography is halal, Islamqa for example does not), but photography too can be considered iconography in some contexts, especially in veneration of leaders, in which case it is haram). Poetry was certainly never forbidden, many chapters of the Qur’an, including those used in prayer, are literally rhyming poetry. Music for dancing or using musical instruments is forbidden, singing (if done by men) is not if the lyrics aren’t sinful, also some schools permit percussion instruments accompanying singing; dancing is permitted if it’s just with your spouse, or not in the presence of the opposite sex, men and women often celebrate a wedding by dancing, just in a sex-segregated way. Now while we’re on this subject, there is a western misconception that Islamic calligraphy was used to get around injunctions against art. This is simply false, the very strictest opinion (and this is what I follow) is that animate beings cannot be depicted in detail, but if their face or hands are not detailed, and the picture doesn’t adore a place of honor, it is permitted. Abstract depictions are universally halal and always have been, this was true from the beginning.

Islamic ballet (note women can dress more freely before puberty): https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/24/ballet-school-for-muslim-kids-uses-poetry-instead-of-music-for-performances-10974080/amp/

>>14651204
>the Qur’an says don’t marry his wives

This applied to all prophets and was a general injunction. Marrying a prophet’s wife could lead to major political and religious problems as it could suggest one is taking over his position.

>the Qur’an gave him permission to marry his adopted son’s (former slave) ex wife
“Hot as hell” is a really silly way of putting it, she was 40 at the time. Yes it was part of the declaration that the Prophet ﷺ has no sons (33:40); indeed none of his male children would survive. This has major political implications because it means his prophethood is not a dynasty and his position cannot be inherited. The story that he saw her in a state of undress and fell in love and then that’s why her husband divorced her has no isnad--that is, there is no chain or source for this, it appeared hundreds of years after his death. Here is what does have isnad: the Prophet ﷺ knew her from childhood and told her to marry his adopted son, which she really did not want to do because he was a freed slave and she was from a noble line, she looked down on him but still did it because Muhammad ﷺ told her to marry for piety and not birth . Their marriage was not happy, she had a bad temper and was very proud. He divorced her--which put her in a very bad position--and the Prophet ﷺ married her. As his wife she continued to be hot tempered and competed with A’isha (may Allah be pleased with her) for leadership of the wives, but came to her to defence when the latter was slandered. This is the account based on isnad.

>four witnesses
This is for fornication and adultery, rape is not subject to this standard (Sunan Abi Dawud 4379, or 4366 for some English orderings). This is when there is absolutely no evidence besides people saying so. A paternity test or catching them together in your house or his house would be quite enough to convict them, as would other hard forms of tangible evidence. A husband may also swear four times by God his wife committed adultery and on the fifth he will be damned if he is wrong (she may counter it in her defense and is subject to the same divine retribution). But if all else fails, he can easily divorce her if there is any evidence of misconduct on her part, such as texting another man. In such a case he is not required to pay her anything and he recovers the collateral money set aside for her in case of divorce.

>the Qur’an says for people not to visit him too much
Yes. He was extremely courteous, shy and never raised his voice. His etiquette was impeccable and has a leader, both political and religious, people constantly came to his house to talk to him, and being civil and polite he would let them in despite the extreme volume of visitors.

>>14651214
>they kicked him out
After years of making it illegal for him and his followers to buy or sell or trade or work there, they tried to kill him and he escaped

>he went to Medina, a Jewish city
There were Jewish tribes there, they were not the majority. Medina invited him to be arbitrator as described above. He later ran into trouble with all of the Jewish tribes eventually, yes

>he started to attack caravans
Meccan caravans, yes. This is a completely legitimate practice for wartime. He didn’t massacre the merchants though, I don’t know where he gets that from.

>people started to join his religion
This was more of a product of his extremely good reputation that preceded him to Medina and his exemplary and honest exercise of power there. Raiding caravans didn’t do it, that was a common practice between feuding tribes on the daily, neither did he indiscriminately raid caravans, just Meccan ones.

>killed/enslaved all the Jews there
There was trouble with all three of the tribes, yes, two ended up exiled and one killed/enslaved: in one incident a member of the Banu Qaynuqa secretely placed a pin in a Muslim woman’s clothes from behind while she was sitting in his jewelry story; when she stood up, it caused her leg to be exposed, much to her shame and his cackling amusement. A Muslim man did what any good Muslim man would do, he beat the Jew to death. In retaliation, the Jews beat the Muslim man to death. Muhammad ﷺ then declared war on this tribe. Ultimately they were defeated, but they weren’t killed or enslaved, just kicked out. As for the Banu Qurayza, had all their adult males put to death for treachery, siding with an enemy invasion in direct violation of the pact, the Constitution of Medina. Many Jews today talk about the Prophet ﷺ as having committed some sort of genocide on the Jews, but Muhammad ﷺ actually protected Jews when they upheld their agreements, he only came down very hard on usury and unfair business dealings like hoarding, gouging and false advertising, but to this day many Jews refer to this as if it were genocide, in fact he just regulated the economy.

>he returned to Mecca and conquered it and forced everyone to convert
Everyone except Chrstians or Jews, yes. He actually issued a decree, signed with an imprint of his hand (he couldn’t write), that any Muslim who mistreated Christians is to be regarded as an apostate. This decree is known as the Ashtiname. He gave it to the monks of St. Catherine’s monastery, on Mount Sinai, for safekeeping, and it is still there for all to see.

>>14651188
>Revelation of the Qur'an started many years before the Prophet held or expected to hold a position of power.
Bullshit, it was used as a political tool from the start, he even tried to integrate polytheism into the Qur'an at some point to sell the Meccans on his ideas.
After he failed there, he got powerful in Medina by playing factions against each other and then becoming a bandit who robbed from innocents and committed massacres. Of all the desert trilogy prophets, and this includes people in the old testament, he is probably one of the most lethal and power crazed. Some of his last orders were calling for slaughters of people he didn't like. That people followed him after the abrogation bullshit is baffling

>>14651228
>He didn’t massacre the merchants though, I don’t know where he gets that from
Read the prophet and the caliphates, an actually credible source

>>14651228
>he was a successful and great conqueror, unifying all the tribes and cities into a centralized state with the sword
“Yes”

>wombs and swords
Yes, and it will continue to spread because we value the womb and the sword, we esteem them highly. You say that’s greed. No. Rather greed is the source of birth decline and a degeneration of martial vigor and love of battle.

>peaceful versus warlike verses
The advent of an organized Muslim army was revealed but also followed quite logically and naturally once Muslims became a polity as opposed to simply a minority that had no weapons or food. Anon made that number up or got it from someone who made it up; there is no abrogation here, just different contexts. If you want to see the general rules explicated next to each other, read Surah 60, it’s pretty short. Islam is not insane and bloodthirsty, but neither is it pacifist or desirous of peace at all costs. It is imperialist, but honors peace treaties and friendly states. Those who disrespect us or make trouble should be dealt with by force, not by praying for them, but those who are righteous should be respected.

>insane birthrates
>memorizing your holy book
“Yes”

>t. apostate
The worst. The absolute worst. Apostates from Islam are far worse than New Atheists and feel zero compunction about lying. The worst people. Yes they are put to death, and hopefully you can see why. Because they constantly lie and seek to subvert Islam.

>robbing Meccan caravans
I really don’t see the issue here, this is normal wartime practice.

>Bani Mustaliq
This wasn’t without provocation, they were allies of Mecca during a war between the Muslims and Mecca.

>Khaybar Oasis
The torture story lacks isnad, the rest it is because they allied with traitorous Jewish tribes from Medina. They weren’t slaughtered, they surrendered and were spared and paid tribute

>Islam is imperialist
“Yes”

>Uthman’s (may Allah be pleased with him) version
Actually what anon isn’t telling you is this was the version collated by Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, and that both men were extremely close friends of Muhammad ﷺ and this Qur’an was accepted by everyone who was a close companion of the Prophet ﷺ

>alcohol
No verse had to “allow” it in a society where it was normal and regular. Yes the prohibition on alcohol was not an early revelation and Muslims were not teetotalers until it was revealed later.

>coexist peacefully with kuffar
This is possible if they’re people of the book. Atheists and others, no really. The planet belongs to Allah ﷻ, Who is tolerant toward the people of the book but not toward others trying to rule His creation

>itt Muslim talking points with no sources
So did they tell you to marry your cousin from your father's or your mother's side?

>>14651239
>tribute
This is literally synonymous with taxes and every government demanded them then and now. Women, children, the elderly, monks and clergy are all exempt however, so all-in-all pretty fair. “But Muslims don’t have to pay it!” Correct, a Muslim empire obviously accords a preferred status to Muslims. Muslims do however have to pay Zakat, which Dhimmis don’t.

>IslamQA
Again, this is an explicitly Salafi site. It’s a really good site but obviously isn’t always indicative of general Sunni jurisprudence.

>it’s given out at mosques

It’s definitely considered a classic of Shafi’i fiqh. It’s also definitely not handed out to new converts who are typically told not to worry about particular schools of fiqh until they have basic practice down. They are given little booklets on ablution and prayer, maybe ones on the Qur’an or Hadiths.

>behind a screen (hijab)
The way hijab is used today tends to refer what is indicated in Abu Dawood 4104. The screen is used for gatherings all the time though, yes, and in education if women and men need to mix in a class for some reason. Covering the face with the niqab is mostly considered a rewarded deed, not obligatory for anyone but the wives of the Prophet ﷺ, but still praiseworthy and recommended in every school.

>>14651249
Next pic

>clitoris vs prepuce
I can’t find any record of this court case. However the word, which means both the hood and clitoris proper as one organ, is legally understood to mean prepuce (hood) in this context rather than the clitoris proper, based on Abu Dawood 41:5251. This isn’t deceptive, it’s just translating the proper meaning using English vocabulary which makes a complete distinction between the hood and clitoris.

Sunnis don’t use taqiyya. Lying is allowed under certain circumstances, for example if someone puts a gun to your head and says reject Islam you can say you reject it (your life has to be clearly threatened, it can’t just be from pressure), but lying about the nature of Islam is not permissible under any circumstances. The Shia conception of taqiyya is also about avoiding persecution but it is much more liberal in scope and allows for things likes lying about Islam and can be done even if your life is not directly threatened.

>taqiyya is accepted in every sect
Then he shouldn’t have an issue citing daleel instead of an out of context statement from secondary work by a Druze that doesn’t cite anything. One can simply refer to the Hadiths on lying, the overwhelming majority condemn it in extremely harsh terms. There are only a few circumstances where it is overtly sanctioned: once, to accomplish an assassination during wartime; two, to compliment your wife. Three, a man is told to insult the Prophet ﷺ or be put to death, which the man does; he later tells Muhammad ﷺ, and Muhammad ﷺ says he should do it again if a similar situation arises. There is no Sunni justification for lying about Islam in any of the above circumstances, they all exclude that.

>infidel
This actually is not generally a translation of mushreek (shirk means “partnership”, a mushreek is someone who ascribes partners to Allahﷻ), but kaffir. Which he would know if he knew what he were talking about. Kaffir means anyone who is not a Muslim, which includes mushrikeen, but also people of the book and atheists and so on. It’s more often translated as “unbeliever” or “disbeliever”, it comes from the root meaning “to cover up”, in this case the truth, someone who rejects truth. Mushreek is commonly translated as “idolater” but also sometimes “polytheist”, it does not include atheists or monotheistic kuffar. And yes, atheists are considered worse than mushrikeen.

>every non-Muslim must be killed unless he becomes a dhimmi
In wartime or after subjugation, every adult male yes, except for clergy and monks. Randomly doing this to people outside of a state of war is not permitted.

>>14651259
>sciences of the materialists
Al-Nawawi (who is being quoted at this point in the Reliance of the Traveller) wrote in the 13th Century, “sciences” then meant what “philosophy” does now, “sciences of the materialists” meant specific philosophical schools that taught the universe was an eternal perpetual motion made of simple atoms. To project our use of materialist sciences onto Medieval terminology is so anachronistic I shouldn’t have to actually bother but the guy doesn’t care to note that al-Nawawi is saying this. Philosophy here is of course a translation of “falsafa” which by this time also referred to a specific school which taught doctrines like the eternity of creation, it doesn’t mean “philosophy” in the broader sense, which is actually strongly endorsed (as are the physical sciences) in the work “The Revival of the Religious Sciences”, by al-Ghazali (a crucial Shafi’i thinker).

>jihad
Community (can also be be translated as nation, means country in this context) obligation means that Muslim states are obligated to conquer non-Muslim states, yes. Individual obligation means if you are a member of said state and it goes to war, you are obligated to fight. This shouldn’t be confused with randomly lashing out in your own land.

>wives and slaves
Already went over the wives bit. Every Muslim can have any number of slaves.

>infallible
Already disproved that, at least in the sense he is using it. That the Prohet’s ﷺ teachings are without flaw and that he is our role model, yes, these are true,

>mocking the Prophet ﷺ!
There are several things considered martyrdom in Islam if a man dies in defense of, they are primarily his religion, his family and his honor. If someone insults your honor, you are entitled to seek redress. Preferably this is handled by the legal system to prevent feuds, but if there is no legal system that adresses this and the person isn’t a Muslim, you are entitled to handle it yourself. Anyway, yes, of course, mocking the Prophet ﷺ is not something we take lightly, as has been proven by people who tried to test us on that. This is however quite distinct from bans on musical instruments or iconography. And once again poetry is not haram unless it is lewd or blasphemous or something of that sort.

>>14651263
>causation
He is strawmanning ocassionalism here. Ocassionalists hold that while efficient causation doesn’t exist, Allahﷻ makes things run in a pattern like it; in fact that each moment leads to a state very closely connected and following from the prior is seen as evidence of divine sustaining of the universe, since causation is not rational and there must be some external factor establishing the consistency. So a dependable law like causation is taken for granted as how things are made to work, it’s just ocassionalists (and not all Muslims are ocassionalists, mainly Ashari are) deny things do this of their own accord. So the very fact that things have an extremely strong pattern of events that spontaneity could simply not dictate, is not seen as blasphemy, but rather proof of an organizing principle. The belief that there is no pattern worth using in research has nothing to do with ocassionalism.

>innovation
There are two kinds. One is general bid’ah, which can be good. The other is religion bid’ah, that is innovation in religious matters, which is of course bad, the current year cannot change Islam

>Avicenna
He built on prior work, saying he just copied it is outright lying. His theology was wonky but his other contributions were regarded and built on. All the other cases he’s making here is like saying, “Newton was heretical, therefore Christianity thinks calculus is heresy.”

>Islam means Submission
Yes, which is very related to peace (salam) from an Arab perspective, both have the S-L-M root. Of course the peace Islam is understood in Arabic thought it is inner peace from passion and rebellion against God, not living a comfortable, pacifistic life.

>>14651269
As for the rest. Yes. Liberalism and atheism and rationalism are evil.

>>14651230
>desert trilogy
Wew

>>14651234
Doesn't sound primary

Reminder that Islam supports pedophilia

>>14651350
Child marriage is halal (permissible) it's not really supported or condemned.

>>14651153
>This is traditional but not really a good criticism and it's pretty laughable that countries where same-sex marriage is common are calling cousin marriage degenerate.
Muzzies really can't argue can they?
Plus the defending of slavery and banning music, just go back to your own countries and keep that shit there.

>>14651380
Listen to your music, look at what it's saying. Not a single virtue is taught by it, just promiscuity and alcohol

Slavery is halal,you rely on something similar but set up to reward moneylenders instead of warriors

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page

Read Ibn Warraq's Why I Am Not Muslim for a starter.

>>14651380
Lol. Imagine getting owned by OP, and you just did.

>>14651446

>>14651498
I have already read and exhaustively rebutted mountains of lies for a starter. You do realize it is a simple thing to lie, but a complicated thing to explain how a lie is a lie? Perhaps you should start with The Sealed Nectar and The Study Quran, as they will clear up misconceptions prior to making your attack

>muslim tries to defend his religion but reveal himself to support slavery and violence.
Yet another argument for state atheism.

>>14651599
I am defending Islam from lies. As for your charge that Islam is not liberal, that is true

>>14651446
Damn, didn't realise that's what Ave Maria was teaching. Thank you based cousinfucker.

>>14651651
It's an aesthetic, Schubert was agnostic. To him it was mythology,like a song about Diana or Cinderella

>>14651681
And? It still proves you're wrong.

Link to Edgar Nelli's Disproving Islam

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZfLJj2byOSvV6qkOIszZhpiTYoN_51bl/view


Other suggested readings:

The Apostates: When Muslims Leave Islam
by Simon Cottee

Leaving Faith Behind: The Journeys and Perspectives of People who Have Chosen to Leave Islam by Fiyaz Mughal and Aliyah Saleem

Some good exmuslims youtubes.

Abdullah Sameer

https://www.youtube.com/user/abdullahadam

Apostate Prophet

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzREuchzOqiawpEpvEM0Tyg

Brother Rachid (In Arabic)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETur3CZAQDY&list=PL3H8-29Ic95tVA0hcmSerOK76svA4cklq&index=15&t=0s

>>14651690
How? A song about venerating a goddess in a language no one understands written by a composer who didn't believe it doesn't teach virtue, it's just used to cue emotions, so empty of content it's employed in movies like Hitman and Machete

Fuck you and fuck your fake god

>>14651821
(You)

Most of the major caliphs mudslimes worship were alcoholics

>>14651330
>Should I listen to a person supporting slavery and provides no evidence for his claims
>Or should I listen to a historian whose dedicated his life to the study of early islamic history
You make this really tough

>>14651893
Muslims respect the four rightly guided caliphs, who certainly were not alcoholics

Actual academic books on historical Islam.

Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam by Robert G. Hoyland

Early Muslim Dogma: A Source-Critical Study by Michael Cook

Studies in Early Islamic Tradition by Sulaymān Bashīr

Seeing Islam As Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam by Robert G. Hoyland

Parable and Politics in Early Islamic History: The Rashidun Caliphs by Tayeb El-Hibri

Islam's Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora

>>14651913
Pretty sure I cited numerous hadiths and verses. But you are not asking if you should listen to me, you are asking me to listen to a source. I am perfectly willing to listen to sources if they have isnad that's been verified. If not they can and do say anything to suit their agenda, some ridiculous in the other direction and portray the Prophet ﷺ as liberal. The issue is secular historians do not need isnad to make claims, just tenure

>>14651931
Secular works on prophets draw heavily on speculation

>>14651230
Are you a compulsive liar, or something?

Why are people even fighting with the muslim? If they are retarded enough to still believe in the divine allah when we have determined nothing is transcendental, then you will not be able to talk them out of it.

>>14652722
>we have determined nothing is transcendental
Really now? Hume showed causation itself is transcendental

>>14651153
>The Qur'an is not repetitive in that sense.

This doesn't deny that the book is repretitive. It merely explains why it is.

>This is traditional but not really a good criticism and it's pretty laughable that countries where same-sex marriage is common are calling cousin marriage degenerate.

Muhammad himself married his cousin.

>Correct,

Everyone that is not a Muslim will see how these were conveniently timed revelation. As were others.

>good English interpretation like Pickthall or Arberry, you will find the narrations have much literary quality.

Cue the classical Muslim defense of "can only be understood in the original Arabic".

>These schools are not codes, they are different methodologies for arriving at rulings.

Lmao at the idea that much is gained by autistically distinguishing between the schools and the set of conclusions the schools have reached.

>False. Revelation of the Qur'an started many years before the Prophet held or expected to hold a position of power.

He already started from a position of power being a powerful member of a clan and his revelation implied that he was the sole interpreter of justice and emissary of God. The idea that this isn't a power grab is laughable.

>Any Muslim can, provided she is enslaved in a halal way (through jihad)

What a great refutation.

Anyway this whole thread is gay.

>>14651931
These actually look really good.

>>14652812
>This doesn't deny that the book is repretitive. It merely explains why it is.

Repetitive is a pejorative: "containing or characterized by repetition, especially when unnecessary or tiresome". No one uses the term "repetitive" to describe leitmotif

>Muhammad himself married his cousin
As did many Biblical characters and regular people up until the complete abolition of extended family being closely connected and having proximity

>Everyone that is not a Muslim will see how these were conveniently timed revelation. As were others.
Er, revelation of the Qur'an is understood in Islam TO be "conveniently timed", that is revealed when pertinent. That's why the Qur'an doesn't order verses according to chronological order of revelation

>Cue the classical Muslim defense of "can only be understood in the original Arabic".

No Muslim says that. It can only be grasped comprehensively in its original, same as great poetry in literature. That doesn't mean the translations I mentioned don't convey a good degree of it, just far from the magnitude z and Arberry (a secular translator) will say this. Arabic is a very different language than English

>Lmao at the idea that much is gained by autistically distinguishing between the schools and the set of conclusions the schools have reached.
The different conclusions are not codes, they are rulings. Also someone from one school can arrive at a ruling more common in another school. Calling them different codes is like saying Originalist and Strict Constructionism are different codes when they just different ways to interpret the Constitution

>He already started from a position of power being a powerful member of a clan
Which stopped protecting him when his uncle died, and even when his uncle lived he and his followers suffered maltreatment, assault and abuse on a daily basis and total boycotts. This culminated in an attempt for each clan to collectively assassinate him to prevent his own from doing anything as it would be war with everyone

>his revelation implied that he was the sole interpreter of justice and emissary of God.

No Makkan revelation says he is the sole inteerpreter of law afaik. Yes it says he is a prophet but now you are begging the question: "he wasn't a prophet because he was power hungry which is proven by his claim to be a prophet"

goat fucking pedophile.
every single post here is irrelevant.

>>14652930
He had one child bride, hardly a basis to say that when he married his first wife who was forty when he was 25. Did he have a pathology for older women too? Projecting identities like "pedophile" prior to western invention is anarchronistic

>>14652944
>as long as you also fuck older women it's fine
lol what

>>14652963
I don't know what you are on about. I am saying characterizing him as pathologically attracted to children when all virgin brides were child bride there (and he only had one child bride, all his other wives were widowed or divorced) is simply false.

Or perhaps you are saying child marriage os evil, therefore he is? If so, simply say that,but it's quite laughable

>>14651171
>Correct, that is because the limit is in the Surah an-Nur, which was only revealed three years before the Prophet died.
How very nice of god to not tell his prophet he was doing something haram until after he did it and therefore effectively making an exception for Mohammed.
How suspiciously convenient to anybody who is not a muslim.

>>14651188
>building a cult is not beneficial to the leader unless the leader holds poluticcal power
Come on, man. Also, the Qurans verses were made at different points in time and Mohammed proclaimed changes and corrections in retrospect. So it was definitely possible for him to change his cult to the current needs.

>>14653019
All of his wives except A'isha we're widows or divorced, half middle aged when he married them. He cared for women men kicked out, single mothers and wives of fallen soldiers. He had only two concubines (one a gift from Christians), if he really wanted more women he would have bought or captured more female slaves. Your portrayal of his high number of wives as driven by lust is so goofy

>>14651204
>Any Muslim can, provided she is enslaved in a halal way (through jihad). You are free to have sex with her, however her chastity is protected (24:33). She and slaves in general must be clothed and fed as well as their masters are (Sahih Muslim 4092). If she converts, she cannot be a concubine and you must marry her. If she bears a child, she cannot be sold, and must be either freed or supported as a lifetime concubine and becomes free upon your death; all her children with her master are legally free and legitimate.

Every single muslim should be castrated.

>>14653036
>Also, the Qurans verses were made at different points in time
Yes and we know when each were revealed, the legal ones not until after Medina asked him to rule

>and Mohammed proclaimed changes and corrections in retrospect
This is so silly, it's like saying because David didn't fight Saul but was later an imperialist, he just made up what he was doing and not obeying God. Of course going from subject to ruler means you respond differently to aggression, and saying God dictated things differently for the circumstances isn't a viable criticism

>>14653047
You kuffar have figuritively done this yourselves if that offends you

>>14653055
How very convenient that god just so happens to reveal verses when they suit Mohammed personally. And that it keeps happening. That's a clear sign of a con. Mohammed was a cult leader, a sect guru. No different than some modern day yogi telling self serving bullshit.

>Of course going from subject to ruler means you respond differently to aggression, and saying God dictated things differently for the circumstances isn't a viable criticism
Gods law is unchangeable, is it not? What is good in gods eyes is good everywhere, isn't it? Oh no, not to you muslims. Mohammed told you that Allah can change his mind and you have to accept it. Again, the consequence was that Mohammed could make up almost whatever he wanted, as it suited his needs of the moment.

On Muhammad's wives. Includes sources. Note this Sahih source hadith and sirah. This is only relevant in Islam. Not for actual history. Dawah bros like the above love whataboutism. They are here to get there hasanat points by finding people in the low point in their life .

https://wikiislam.net

/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines

Muhammad and premptive warfare .

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Concerns_with_Islam:_Immoral,_Unjustified,_and_Preemptive_Warfare_and_Violence

>>14653091
>How very convenient that god just so happens to reveal verses when they suit Mohammed personally.
What, that wasn't the case. He told him to suddenly start praying openly when it was easier for him and his followers to do it secretly. He revealed not to ransom prisoners when and only for when he had just taken many wealthy ones.

>Gods law is unchangeable, is it not?
No, that's a strawmans. Neither Jews, Christians nor Muslims believe any order ever given by God, Glorified and Most High, to any prophet was permanently and forever applicable under all contexts, or else we would all have to build arks and fill them with animals.

>change His mind
That's also a strawman

>>14653094
Isnad

>>14651350
and thats a good thing
>>>/r/eddit/

>>14651245
I have cited several hadiths and Qur'an verses

Bump

where can I find a cute arabi women who isn't a hardcore muslima?

>>14651380
>>14651446
>>14651651
>>14651681
>>14651690
>>14651757
God DAMN, op is btfoing christcucks and liberals left and right. blessed thread

>>14654849
Try an Arab church

>>14651153
Comparing being a fag to literally fucking your own cousin. Atleast fags don't pollute the world with their retarded offspring.

>>14652976
Ok buddy how about you try fucking a child and claim your not a pedo cause "Well I fuck widows before this"

>>14655505
Counsin marriage was normal for all classes until the proliferation of the automobile

>>14655520
You are so sure in your righteousness but your culture promotes children having sex with each other and soon will be promoting adults doing so with children, your philosophers already anticipated this. The difference is you are going to put your children through a thousand partners who don't have any obligations and completely destroy their ability for intimacy and trust. A'isha, may Allah be pleased with her, grew up with extreme moral integrity, wisdom and even leadership qualities, being raised by a loving husband. Our girls are as mature as your women and our women are more mature than your men.

>>14655544
Yeah who gives a shit if it was normal or not what does that have to do with anything. Just shows how behind your culture is. All this "soon" bullshit we're talking about the now pedo man

>>14655558
Behind? This has always been normal. Even just last Century it was quite acceptable in your culture. It only stopped being acceptable when pre marital relationships became a norm and expectation for you across all classes

>>14655572
Ok so you just proved my point that your culture is still behind. "B-but no its tradional" btw how the fuck do you know Aisha grew up with any of that shit you were talking about? Were you there? Or are you just drooling out what you been told by the grand pedo?

>>14655582
Behind? Your culture of women getting married at 30 is not a step toward whatever end of history you are thinking of, it's an unsustainable blip.

A'isha, radi Allahu anha, is THE most prolific source on Muhammad ﷺ and Islam. She tells us what he said and how she grew up and how he treated her. She was consulted long after his death for legal rulings because she knew him so intimately

>>14655544
>Counsin marriage was normal for all classes until the proliferation of the automobile
It definitely wasn't. It was banned by every Christian church.

>>14655599
We live longer now and theres more things to do other then getting married and poping out kids.

Im sure it was her writting all that bullshit, "he treats me very nice mom please dont call the cops again" Just admit it bro, you wanna fuck kids. But listen its aight, just stick to doing that in mudshit land not in the civilized world.

>>14655614
No, it was only banned by Theodius which remained null, not by church edict. It didn't actually become a concern until the eugenics movement

>>14655617
What are you doing that you consider more important?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rZwnJ1cE1s

>>14655639
I'm about to go hiking with some friends.

>>14655695
Going hiking with your children is better

>>14655711
Ok mr pedo

>>14655723
You must live for what exists beyond you. For only then does your life signify anything

>>14655781
And apparently according to you, being sexually attracted to them is no big deal.
This thread is a perfect example of Mahommedans insanity.

You're trying your best to make your stupid cult attractive but still achieve the absolute opposite.

Please keep going, with people like you everyone will understand why Mahommedans should be kept far far away from Western civilizations.

>>14655781
That fucking image

>>14655991
Lusting after any woman but your wife is wrong. This is why men must lower their gaze and no look women in the face or eyes unless they have discussed potential marriage with their guardians. To look at a woman once is natural but to look a second time or gaze is Haram unless she is your wife, family or slave

>>14656027
If merely looking at a woman twice makes you lust after her then you're a psycho, no wonder there is such an epidemic of rape and obsession about sex and porn among your kind.

Again, your post shows how insane Mohammedans are that they must prevent themselves from looking at women.

Keep going please, you keep making a fool of yourself.

>>14656280
Even if there is no lust it's prohibited. Even if the woman's face is covered. And if a man is looking at your daughter or mother or wife, you of course will confront him, right? This is gheerah, it's natural, we all understand it. Even if he says he isn't lusting

>>14656296
Are you stupid? There are tons of way to look at someone, believe it or not I can tell when the cashier looks at my wife because he's simply waiting for her to pay or when some creep looks at her.

Your cult is filled with Mohammed's insecurities and as a result your entire culture revolves around males insecurities about their women. There is not a single thing that a Mohammedan fears more than his wife being attracted by another man.

>>14655283
Samefag

>>14656309
I am actually not worried about that. However since the woman I am planning on marrying, إن شاء الله, wears a niqab I think the cashier should know better and if his look lasted beyond a glance I would ask him just what he is doing. Of course I would be paying anyway,not my wife,and if shopping must be done in my absence my mother can do it since my wife won't drive

>>14656460
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that's fucking perfect.
Your cult is basically the incel religion. You have to put a fucking trashbag on your wife. What's the cashier gonna do? He isn't gonna do shit, he's a fucking cashier and if even a cashier looking in an absolutely banal way at your wife makes you react like that then you're a petty incel.

Why wouldn't your wife drive? Women cause way less accidents than men, why couldn't she do shopping? Are you worried a potato might look at her in your absence?

One of the many problems with your cult is that trust is a non-existent concept.

>>14656460
Is this guy trolling the OP by pretending to be retarded.

>>14651153
No rebuttal will convince me that islam has any worth

>>14656646
She wears niqab and chooses not to drive out of piety, I didn't compell or ask

>>14656682
I am OP
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghayrah

Something westerners don't know is that niqab, unlike hijab, is a pious extra, like the cap for men. Women wear it out of choice. Also westerners don't know that Muslim women feel valued when their husband is possessive. To not be makes you a "dayooth"

>>14656794
>yeah she wears it by choice I swear! We absolutely do not teach her since she's 2 y.o. that she must do that !
>also look at this pic that shows men force her to do it to preserve their own honor.
>What? No off course we don't force women to put on a trashbag you stupid kaffir !
Beautiful

>>14656806
Women don't even wear hijab at 2 lol except for cutsies, it's only required after puberty

>>14656832
Learn to read inbred retard

>>14651153
>This was extremely common in the west until recently
but not really. pre christian europe was clan based, but even they were smart enough to marry more distant cousins rather than first or second mostly. then the church banned this and it largely died out after the fifth century.

>>14656836
That picture is about what is *fardh*

Westerners can comprehend extreme exhibitionism, but not extreme modesty.

In islam you need a prayer mat, a book holder, water to wash your face with, certain clothes to wear while prayer and so on. If there was no civilization islam wouldnt work, therefore its invalid, checkmate

>>14657280
Actually no, no mat is required (it's just nice) and the Qur'an is intended to be memorized and recited orally, the writing is secondary. Water is not required for ablution; if none is available, tayammum is performed instead of wudu. Clothes for prayer only must cover awrah.

>>14657280
>>14657303
To add: the only water necessary for wudu is about 3/4 of a cup, and using the minimal water is considered optimal.

>>14651153
Ignore OP. He runs a reactionary discord and is a mentally disturbed 18 year old college freshman who just converted to islam in the last year after having converted to orthodox christianity for 2 years.

>>14657139
Off course they do, what do you think the Virgin Mary represents you hypocrite. You obviously know nothing about western culture.
This picture is about tricking women into thinking it's in their interest to put on a trashbag and you know it.

have sex and kys in that order loser

>>14657366
The Virgin Mary today is a "model", France bans girls from even dressing that modesty in school

>>14657374
Have children

>>14657510
It's not about physical appearance dimwit, it's about inward modesty. The Virgin Mary is an allegory.
Also, France is hardly Western anymore, its culture has been completely destroyed by liberal free masonry.
Get off the internet and read a book, you lack very very basic knowledge.
Start with the greeks, or better start with the Sumerians, then move on onto the Romans and Christian and then onto the Islamic litterature and you will understand why Islam is the least developped religion and culture by far.

>>14651153
>Literary criticism of the Quran's content
I would say who cares except so many Muslims insist on how amazingly it is composed. I don't care, and this is a weak attack against Islam anyway.

>Cousin marriage
Cousin marriage is not a good idea as a custom but it's not scripturally prohibited in Christianity (or Judaism) either. As you point out, just because something is permitted doesn't mean it's always a good idea. I personally find it hard to blame the tenets of Islam for the ubiquity of cousin marriage in the Mideast.

>Muhammad's wives
If you don't accept that Mohammed was a true prophet (I don't), then the timing of his "revelation" about the proper number of wives looks INCREDIBLY suspicious, like the Mormon "apostle" having a revelation about suddenly black people are no longer cursed in the 1970s.
>>he can have all the wives he wants
>No, it doesn’t say that, I already addressed this.
OK so for the majority of Muhammad's life he could have all the wives he wanted, when he was done collecting wives suddenly Allah imposes a bag limit. This is not a good way to address the problem.

>The Trinity
Well Christians do worship Christ as being the same thing as God but don't worship Mary. Frankly understanding the deal with Mary shouldn't be that difficult, Mary's status in Catholicism is in many ways similar to Mohammed's in Islam: the highest state achievable by a mortal human.

>islamqa
So what exactly do you disagree with regarding the Salafia/IslamQA method? I mean this isn't even a rebuttal.

>codes vs schools
These are meaningless semantic quibbles.

>Islam not invented for accruing power
You literally described a process of accruing power. A better way to rebut this claim would be to say that Islam is not *for* accruing power but that power inevitably accrues to a man as righteous and God-favored as Mohammed, I don't agree with this, but it makes more sense.

>female slaves
If my halal pregnant female slave converts so that I have to marry her, can I then divorce her when I tire of her? Asking for a friend.
>You are free to have sex with her, however her chastity is protected
dude what

>forbid paintings, poetry, music
That's a lot of words to say that this assertion is basically correct.

>This applied to all prophets and was a general injunction. Marrying a prophet’s wife could lead to major political and religious problems as it could suggest one is taking over his position.
Claiming that the injunction applies to "all prophets" is meaningless because Muhammed was the only one this injunction actually applied to at the time.

>he can easily divorce her if there is any evidence of misconduct on her part, such as texting another man
lol

>>14657540
>It's not about physical appearance dimwit
Yes it is, it's Barbie, it's kitsch

>it's about inward modesty
Represented by outward glamor and pearly white skin and rose red lips

>The Virgin Mary is an allegory.
Saint Augustine is rolling in his grave

>Also, France is hardly Western anymore, its culture has been completely destroyed by liberal free masonry.
Even in church women all over the west dress in a way that would scandalize Mary, radi Allahu anha

>>14651153
Quran is trash
Islam is trash
Muhammad is trash

>>14657578
Ad I said, you know barely anything about what you're talking about.
The Virgin Mary can be both a real person and an allegory.
Arguing with you is like trying to explain self-evident concepts to a child.

>>14651951
>Verses
Which originated from the guy that arbitrarily forgot those he didn't like and cancelled them, sounds reliable
>Hadith
Oh the stories that you heard from a friend whose nephew had a coworker that stumbled on a cat whose owner had a sister whose husband fucked a goat whose herder lived with a guy for three years who knew a guy that was friends with one of Muhammad's companions and told him the story
What a bastion of reliability

>>14657631
I'm fully aware how allegory works in the west,it means like how Michelangelo represented God as an old naked man and Jesus and David as robust Greek youths and angels as homoerotic eye candy

>>14657705
(You)

>>14657659
>Which originated from the guy that arbitrarily forgot those he didn't like and cancelled them, sounds reliable
Incorrect

>Oh the stories that you heard from a friend

No,the exact identity, character, integrity and location of each person in the chain of narration must be established, and there must be a grammar and vocabulary consistent with the usage expected. 99.9% of Hadiths were graded below hasan, and hasan isn't even sahih, which is required for fatwas

>>14657723
If a Catholic who was homosexual (as he was) did a nude sculpture of Jesus (as he did) today, you would be outraged

Mohammad was literally a pedophile who was afraid of dogs. Sounds like the ultimate pussy to me.

>>14657567
>If you don't accept that Mohammed was a true prophet (I don't), then the timing of his "revelation" about the proper number of wives looks INCREDIBLY suspicious,
>>14653037

>>14657567
>Christians do worship Christ as being the same thing as God but don't worship Mary
Praying and bowing to someone is worshipping them

>So what exactly do you disagree with regarding the Salafia/IslamQA method?

I don't. But it's not used by most Muslims

>These are meaningless semantic quibbles
No they aren't, the schools have a common code, schools are just judicial philosophy

>If my halal pregnant female slave converts so that I have to marry her, can I then divorce her when I tire of her? Asking for a friend.

Yes but you still have to support her

>Claiming that the injunction applies to "all prophets" is meaningless because Muhammed was the only one this injunction actually applied to at the time
In fact no,it applied to all

>>14657360
So these are the guys who've been spamming pro-Islam threads in the recent past, huh? They've been proselytizing quite aggressively here and on /his/ for quite a while now.

>>14651380
>>14651446
>>14651518

The world can know no peace until every last muslim lies dead.

Now THIS is effortposting

>>14658474

You mean American and Jew?

>>14651259
>two, to compliment your wife.
Heh

Islam is gay lole

>>14658502
if every catlick did this they would have to make a new board

>>14652775
Causation doesn't exist.

>>14658412
Are Muslims able to honor or respect people without worshiping them?

>>14658412
>Praying and bowing to someone is worshipping them
No it isn't. Do Muslims worship the Ka'aba?

>>14657567
>If you don't accept that Mohammed was a true prophet (I don't), then the timing of his "revelation" about the proper number of wives looks INCREDIBLY suspicious,
>>14653037
The issue isn't necessarily that Muhammed was some horndog with a huge harem. It's that he had one set of rules for everyone except him and then his own special unique rules for himself. Was Mohammed the last man in history who might have needed a way to provide for a bunch of widows? No. Then why is he allowed to do it one way that's prohibited to everybody else?

>No they aren't, the schools have a common code, schools are just judicial philosophy
OK, but the schools or whatever you want to call them also have a lengthy library of rulings. It's less like the US Constitution and more like the divergent conceptions of English Common Law in the US and the UK.

>First guy: IslamQA says X
>You: I think X is correct, but you can't say that X is correct because not every Muslim necessarily agrees with this.
What are you even trying to say?

>>14658435
Insufferability of alienated young male converts, ranked:
1. Sunni Islam
2. Neo-paganism
3. Orthodox Christianity
4. Shia Islam
5. Evangelical Christianity
6. Roman Catholicism
7. Neo-Advaita/Buddhism

>>14659971
(Trad-)Catholic larpers are much more numerous than Orthodox ones.

Prof Kafir salted the earth damn

>>14655283
Nice contribution to discussion

>>14659971
>epic orthodox lutherans not on the list
Damm it feels good to be right
(read the small catechism now)

dont care didnt ask plus youre a sandnigger
fuck allah/yahweh/elohim