/lit/ - Literature

>>14626592
YOU CAN'T. EVERYTHING IS PREDETERMINED. THERE IS NO SELF!!!!!!

>>14626592
Zeus sits atop a mountain and moves the will of men... Read the Iliad it's very clear... Tolstoy realized this... In War & Peace, Anna Karenina, The Death of Ivan Ilych this is what he was trying to convey. The ultimate underlying pure essence of being is 1) cute twinks 2) the will of the gods

>>14626592
Quantum Randomness

Continuous feedback is a situation where there is no distinction between input and output, or, where inputs are outputs and outputs are inputs. Since most people think about determinism in mathematical-functional terms (which is why they're susceptible to that simulation horseshit), that particular mode of determinism is blown out by something as simple as the cruise control in a car.
If you actually start plumbing the metaphysics of calculus, it becomes increasingly hard to hold on to what "determinism" is even supposed to mean.

>>14626592
determinism is the grounds for free will
free will is proof of determinism

>>14626592
Even believers in "free will" agree that their will 'determines' their actions.

You could decide to do anything at any time for any or no reason. Determinism is fucking pig shit.

>>14626657

>>14626592
Artist of that camel toe plz

Determinism implies linear flow of time, of which there's no evidence, thank you for playing

>>14626750
>You could decide to do anything at any time for any or no reason. Determinism is fucking pig shit.
Contradiction.

>>14626592
It’s likely compatibalism

>>14626592
kill yourself anime-posting faggot

The act of disproving necessitates causation. Determinism cannot be disproved, but the reality of determinism does not rule out freedom and free will.

>>14626750
How do you know you can decide?

>>14626750
>You could decide to do anything at any time for any or no reason.
Wait, are you saying your actions are determined by your decisions?

I see and feel myself as a free agent, a thinking entity that processes the information it absorbs and synthesizes new one. In fact, it appears nearly impossible to feel otherwise, detach myself from personal decision-making and let the cosmos move your body (only a few mystics have claimed to achieve such state). To say that I'm a subject of deterministic forces is to say that my perception is illusory. Which in turn begs the question from whence does the illusion come? How can the concept of rational freedom arise in a fully determined Universe and why is it so much stronger than the supposed truth of total automation? Am I a victim of some malignant God who mocks this organic robot with torture of indecision? Or is it an accident? Both of these possibilities introduce uncertainty and free agents (malignant God or randomly created ideas)

Bumping because the hand of fate wants me to be entertained by more determinism squabbles.

>>14626608
Just because things are predetermined doesn't mean there isn't a self nigger

"Free will" is a made up nonsense term with literally zero meaning as far as I can tell. What the fuck does it mean. Someone tell me.
I appear to be able to make decisions, I can take in information from the world around me, process that information, and then take actions based on what I take in and my previous experience and understandings. Is that not the same as free will? If so then determinism still applies. If not, then what the actual fuck is this bullshit nonsense term?

>>14626892
Accidents are not totally random anymore than a stream is, it's chaotic.

>>14626803
>decide to do anything
I'd like to take a shit right now, yet it's impossible. Do you think that "my will" is not strong enough?

>>14626750
>decide to do anything
I'd like to take a shit right now, yet it's impossible. Do you think that "my will" is not strong enough?

>>14626592
If we consider all aspects of humanity within the larger system of the universe, that is, that it follows the similar concept of seeming cause and effect, there is no reason to think that we are not machine that are determinative.

>>14626879
Please read the definition of determinism, you really aren’t as smart as you think.

>>14626771
Determinism is false, op had hours to name the artist and chose not to.

>>14626680
Would love elaboration on this one.

I determine that you're A fag

>>14626592
You're using your reason to say your reason is determined by unreason.

You autistic faggot.

prove causality first faggot

>>14626592
Time is an illusion. You think time passes but that's actually only what you feel with your limited brain.
In fact there is no time, every event is simultanously happening. Like you don't watch a movie for 2h but look at all the 216,000 frames (30frames/sec, 2h movie) at once.

Determinism means any event was determined by a previous causes. Without time, there's no previous. Hence, determinsim is wrong.

Wave function collapse is random in an total sense. Absolutely indeterminate.

>>14626592
Determinism of what? The question is not whether or not it's determined, but rather, why do we think that it's determined, and why do we think that a universe (or multiple universes) exists. Also, the Bible.

>>14628483
cool idea but you've gotta explain a lil more. Would certainly explain weird aspects of physics like time/space not existing for photons.

>>14626892
>free
>agent
Hmmmm

>>14626592
We feel like we have free will so we do

Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics makes indeterminism the only viable option.

>>14628496
It's hard to explain because it describes a state of existing that is not really imaginable.
I would even go further and say that all creatures are one (aka the universe) experiencing everything that has aver been experienced and that ever will be experienced at once. Just in our current state, we don't get it. Your life is one character of a universe that suffers from multiple personality disorder.

>>14628307
Most modern determinists are that way because of scientism, because everything is just particles, man. But the scientific method only meaningfully covers a tiny range of physical phenomena, which is, basically, those that fit in to this naïve causality that everyone's always going on about.
Consider, to the extent that there is a scientific theory of fluids, it's a bunch of coupled differential equations. Everything about a fluid is continuously mutually dependent on the entire fluid, in a way that isn't reducible to simpler parts. So what do scientists do? They stop talking about fluids and start talking about discrete grids in discrete time with uniform cells, that is, they talk about computer simulation. And we always hear about how, if we just had finer grid resolution, we'll eventually get back to reality. Much like how, if Heracles keeps covering half the remaining distance, he'll eventually overtake the tortoise.
I know this is still hopelessly dense; most scientists I know can't follow this discussion either. But suffice it to say, the world is not a mapping in time from state S to state S', which is what most people think determinism is.

>>14626592

>>14628483
You've abstracted yourself out of experience of the world, and beyond all comprehensibility. Lame and useless for anything.

>>14626680
Doesn't seem like it. Whether or not output serves as input as well, it can be caused by what came before it.

>you're not the one deciding your thoughts it just come out
>you don't choose to move your arm it just does
We don't have free will anons.

Anime is objectively garbage because it hijacks your will to only watch these very poor cartoons instead of taking responsibility for yourself.

Discuss.

>>14628782
i can't even deny what you said. yes it's not very useful, still might be true, though,and yes it's a very abstract and maybe false theory bit i cant help to see it as likely

Define determinism first.

>>14628837
If will can be "hijacked", it means it must exist.
And if it exists, it means you can resist becoming addicted to anime.

>>14628940
Impossible. Look at weebs and tell me they aren't hijacked by a revenge plot on whites by the Japanese.

>>14626592
The mind is a complex set of functions capable of inferring knowledge independent of outside stimulus, which means we can and must guide our actions based upon a priori knowledge which exist outside of the empirical realm in which determinism supposedly occurs. Please do not post 2D jezebels on my board. Thank you.

>>14626592
It was predetermined for me to get these dubs

>>14629022

>>14628991
Japanese are far more 'hijacked' by it.

>>14629220
Anime is full of subliminal messages designed to affect Caucasian brains which the Nips are able to avoid. It is, when you do thorough research, a Jewish conspiracy to render young Caucasians ineffective in supporting the future of their race.

>>14629221
Clothes don't work that way.

>>14629353
that's why 2D will always be superior.

>>14628483
If Euclidean space isn't real how can our waifus be real

>>14629271
Based Jewish-Japanese-American cartoon conspiracy gang.
The white race is one big racial inferiority complex, and whiteness must be bred out of it via interracial breeding.

>>14628145
Wow, project much?

>>14628483
This is incontrovertibly correct. It's the perspective of modern physics.

>>14628484
False.

>>14626750
Your will is merely formed by the combination of genetics and experiences, which is why it is determined
You can think that it's wrong, but it was inevitable you would anyways

>>14629461
they are real in a sense that i can't perceibe anything else. subjectively real, overall kind of

>>14626892
You make decisions but your decisions are predetermined
Free will and determinism mesh really well if you're not a retard

>>14626657
Not knowing the source of quantum behavior in no way implies it's genuinely random.

Morality requires free will
humans have morality
therefor humans have free will
Its modus ponens I ain't got to explain shit

>>14629553
>humans have morality
Proof?
I can think of many examples to the contrary

>>14626839
>>14628837
>>14629271
No bully.

>>14626680
i agree with this but i think determinism might be the best way for humans to process this. like sure time itself isn't linear nor is possibility on a metaphysical level but as individuals we're just sort of subject to our own present, which for our purposes is deterministic and linear.

>>14626592
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd-tKr0LJTM

Read up on Bell's inequality

>>14629726
Your request for epistemic truth is in itself a value. Values are units of morality. Epistemic truth is permanently tethered to morality.

>>14629795
No, not really.
Saying a bunch of pretentious doo-hickey doesn't make you seem smart by the way.

>>14628483
Read Aristotle

>>14629906
Which work?

>>14629527
>This is incontrovertibly correct. It's the perspective of modern physics.
No it isn't.

Suicide proves free will
There is absolutely no reason, whether through the views of karma, religion, or natural science, in which a creature would be programmed to end their own lives. Thus humans must have the ability to make their own decisions, contradictory to their programming.

>>14630110
No. Events in the past give you the idea that suicide seems to be the right option to do next. What else would make you consider suicide? No one chooses ssuiced if there's no reason to do it. It's reason lies in your past, you genes, your enironemnt, your experience. Whether it's a good option from an objective pov is questionable and in the very moment you are blinded by other solutions but when you make the decision the reason isn't random, nor an spntanous idea without any past explanation that leads to it. The same if you come to the conclusion that it might be a stupid plan. Everything has a reason and that reason has it roots in your past. Hence it is determined.

>>14629846
So you assign a negative value to being pretentious? Moral statement.

>>14630110
There is no reason why a creature would be programmed to have cancer either but it happens, it's just an aberration.

>>14630110
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothysis

>>14629787
We have to make predictions as a simple fact of being in the world and needing to do things like make plans. But our predictions usually don't pan out, because "linear" is a shit way of trying to understand anything. But given the choice between accepting that the world is fucking weird and brushing failed predictions under the rug, well...

We are but the puppets of the d*miurge. Evil little godling dangles us around, like toys.

>>14626592
Easy.
People who believe in determinism are incels.
People who believe in free will are Chads.
Chads are correct.
Free will is correct.
Determinism is wrong.

>>14629792
Bell's Inequality has nothing to do with determinism.

>>14630056
Yes, it is.

>>14626592
THE I POSITS ITSELF UNCONDITIONALLY.

>>14629544
Bell's theorem shows otherwise.

>>14628782
Okay Juan Paul

>>14629553
>Morality requires free will
Why?
>Humans have morality
Wait wha-
>Free will exists
Top shelf keks

>>14630735
The result of Bell's test is that if there's a hidden variable theory of quantum mechanics, it has to be non-local. Hidden variable theories are inconsistent with relativity, so the ones that are out there come up with post hoc explanations for relativistic behavior on different scales.

>>14629846
>How dare you use precise language when dealing some of the most linguistically volatile topics in philosophy
Yeah man it doesn't make you smart, it makes you understood.

>>14626592
Atomic decay is, to the best of our knowledge, random, and there are no explaining factors that allow you to predict exactly when it will happen.
As long as this stands, determinism is false.

Why is the literature board trying to disprove determinism through le science? This place really is reddit now.

>>14629508
Chase down the white man.

>>14626680
>Continuous feedback is a situation where there is no distinction between input and output, or, where inputs are outputs and outputs are inputs.
Sounds like something that would actually throw free will out of the window. Supposedly, if you meditate hard enough you will come upon the realization that sensory input isn't much different from your thoughts, it's just data you become aware of.

>>14631357
>Hidden variable theories are inconsistent with relativity
No, not technically. All Bell Inequality violations really indicate is that quantum entanglement is nonlocal. The kind of Nonlocality required does not technically violate Special Relativity, which only limits signal velocity. But it was strange enough to have spooked Einstein. In any case, the Bell tests have no implications at all for determinism.

>>14626750
then reply to me calling yourself a dumb little /pol/-tard incel faggot

>>14628483
>>14628570

GALAXY BRAIN: THE PRESENT IMMANENTLY IS THAT WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY OUTSIDE OF TIME, THE MOST DIVINE FORM THEREOF YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, THE PAST AND FUTURE EVER DESTROYING THEMSELVES AGAINST ITS CONTENT, WHICH YOU ONLY DOUBT DUE TO ASSUMING IT ABSOLUTELY INSIDE OF THEM AND ASCRIBING THAT WHICH IS OUTSIDE TO AN UNKNOWABLE "TRANSCENDENTAL" GOD.

>His disciples said to him, "When will the repose of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?"
>He said to them, "What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it."

>>14628782
I can comprehend him just fine. Dunno if he's right though.

>>14628686
>I know this is still hopelessly dense; most scientists I know can't follow this discussion either.
I wonder why.

>Everything about a fluid is continuously mutually dependent on the entire fluid, in a way that isn't reducible to simpler parts.
You can approximate it to simpler parts (diff eq), or treat it statistically. You seem to be implying that there is something lost in this transition, but what would this something magically give us? Get rid of determinism?

Determinism simply means that if you know the current state of all the particles, with sufficiently high computational power you could predict everything that will happen, or has happened. The mystery is gone, the passage of time is pointless.
Now, quantum mechanics gives some meaning to the passage of time - at least to the "classical" observer. But do they really? Information has "weight", it can't be created out of nothing. Will the future add something new to the system? No, it is already set in stone.
>b-but quantum uncertainty!
There is nothing uncertain about the quantum function itself, if you know it you will know how it can develop in the future. You can't know the exact path a particle will take, but that's because paths don't exist in the physical world. Uncertainty comes into play when you try to reduce the wave function (which holds all the information) to something more mundane.

What if both free will and determinism are just subjective primitive interpretations of a world we just can't understand? Seems like both are true depending who you ask.

>>14632928
Just an idea. Of course, I don't know if I'm right, I cannot be able to know it.