/lit/ - Literature

>>14572727
>I was introduced to process theology
He fell for the meme. Also stopped reading.

>I was introduced to process theology/philosophy while hiking and listening to the Philosophize This podcast
>I want to mention Jordan Peterson's lectures on Christianity
please leave this board

You have no real conception of God. People like pseuden peterstein don’t believe in God and try to word salad it into something to justify their beliefs. If you want to understand God like a truly religious person does, read spirituality, religious poetry and prose, pray, meditate, try to do good things.

>>14572727
Indeed, if you think Peterson has any true knowledge about religion and God, you should leave this board. He's part of the Reign of Quantity.

I can tell you’re being honest, and I give you credit for that, but please read more. Peterson is critiqued, rightfully, because he’s very poorly read and offers an erroneously false view of most of the thinkers he criticizes (Derrida, Marx, post-modernism)—and a shallow view of thinkers he praises (Nietzsche). I won’t tell you what to read, but you might want to seek out German Idealism and thinkers like Fichte and Kant who emphasize the importance of individual responsibility.

But please drop Memerson. You will thank me later

>>14572855
This, but read Guenon, Schuon and Plato.

God is a question of faith, not a question of reason.

>>14572869
this

>>14572867
And of course Plotinus

>>14572869
And the pure of heart shall see God. In this life, still, if you seek for it.

>>14572869
Aquinas would disagree but kierkegaard would agree. Different people have different ideas

>>14572777
Only based post

>>14572869
>>14572887
God can be known directly by the Intellect, but, until then, faith must be combined with reason for purification purposes; adopting the right view, as the Buddhists say.

OP here. I want to clarify that I am not just swallowing everything Peterson says but am regarding him as a gateway to another perspective on religion for popular culture that is desperately needed. I understand that the validity of his references may be flawed but what I am trying highlight is that his apparent message is far greater than most people are hearing. It is a step in the right direction. Is his asking for responsibility deniable?

This is not a Peterson thread, this is about God.

>>14572917
https://archive.org/stream/reneguenon/1927%20-%20The%20Crisis%20of%20the%20Modern%20World#page/n7/mode/2up

>>14572740
>>14572867
both Whitehead/Hegel and Schuonism (Monism) are two poles of abirations, the one what you could call the "jewish", the other what you could call the "greek" tendency; the Fullness of God lies in the middle, in the cross - read St. Maximos Confessor

>>14572942
Recommend me a book of St. Maximos; what should I read?

>>14572942
There is no such thing as Schuonism you absolute retard.

>>14572942
It seems this anon is writing on pure sentimentality, and therefore you should ignore him.

>>14572727
>I saw a thread recently that asked for an opinion on him and *every single reply* was negative and belittling to his character regardless of how obvious it is that the basis of his message is just to push people towards responsibility and how we can find that responsibility with a healthy relationship with *our idea* of a righteous God.
He's an atheist and very often disingenuous.

I agree he does good things, and has done more good than bad, that doesn't however free him from the judgement of others, and the responsibility of moral action.

>>14572727
>theological philosophy
Anon you can't use this interchangeably with religion.

I'll use this thread to post excerpts from men who truly know God.

>“O Trinity , who exceeds all Being, Deity, and Goodness—who instructs Christians in heavenly wisdom—guide us to that topmost height of mystic lore which surpasses light and more than surpasses knowledge, where the simple, absolute, and unchangeable mysteries of heavenly Truth lie hidden in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories which exceed all beauty.
>Such is my prayer; and you I counsel, dear Timothy, that in the earnest exercise of mystic contemplation, you leave the senses and the activities of the intellect and all things that the senses or the intellect can perceive, and all things in this world of nothingness or in that world of being, and that, your understanding being laid to rest, you strain—as far as you can— towards a union with Him whom neither being nor understanding can contain. For by unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and all things, you shall in pureness cast all things aside and be released from all and so shall be led upwards to the ray of that Divine Darkness which exceeds all existence. “ These things you must not disclose to any of the uninitiated, by whom I mean those who cling to the objects of human thought and imagine there is no super-essential reality beyond, and fancy that they know by human understanding Him that has made Darkness His secret place.”

Pseudo-Dionysius.

>Shadow cannot be established when there is light. The cosmos is a shadow, and the Real is a light. That is why the cosmos is annihilated from itself when self-disclosure occurs. For the self-disclosure is light, and the soul‘s witnessing is a shadow, since the viewer for whom the self-disclosure occurs is annihilated form the witnessing of himself during the vision of God.

Ibn Al-Arabi

>We must ascend, therefore, once more to the Good, which every soul desires. If anyone has beheld It, he will know what I say, and in what manner It is beautiful, for it is as good that It is desired, and all appetency is towards goodness. But the attainment of the Good is for those who mount upward to the heights, set their faces towards them, and strip off the garments with which we clothed ourselves as we descended hither. Just as those who penetrate into the innermost sanctuaries of the mysteries, after being first purified and divesting themselves of their garments, go forward naked, so must the soul continue, until anyone, passing in his ascent beyond all that is separative from God, by himself alone contemplates God alone, perfect, simple and pure, from Whom all things depend, to Whom all beings look, and in Whom they are, and live, and know. For He is the cause of Being, Life and Intelligence. If, then, anyone beheld Him, with what love would he be inspired, with what desire would he burn, in his eagerness to be united with Him! With what bliss would he be overcome! He that has not yet beheld Him may desire Him as Good, but, to him that has, it is given to love Him as Beauty, to be filled with wonder and delight, to be overwhelmed yet unharmed, to love with true love and keen desire, to laugh at other loves, and to despise the things he formerly thought beautiful. Of such a nature is the experience of those who have beheld visions of Gods or angels—no more do they seek aught of the beauty of other bodies. What, then, shall we think of one who beheld The Beautiful Itself and by Itself, pure and untouched by flesh or body, existing neither in earth nor in heaven, because of Its very purity? For all these are contingent things and mixed, nor are they primary but proceed from It. If, therefore, he beheld That which provides for all things, which, remaining in Itself, gives to all and receives nothing into Itself, and if, remaining in the contemplation of This and tasting of Its bliss, he should be assumed into Its likeness, of what other beauty would he then have need? For This, since It is Beauty Itself and the First Beauty, makes those who love It beautiful and beloved. And this is the greatest and ultimate task which lies before the soul, for the sake of which all her toils are undertaken— not to be left without portion in that most sublime vision, to obtain which is to be blessed by the vision of blessedness, but not to obtain it is wretchedness. For not he that has no share of beautiful colours or bodies, or of power or dominion or kingship, is unfortunate; but he that lacks this one thing alone, for the sake of which it were well to let go the possession and kingship and rule of the whole earth and of the sea, aye, and of the heaven itself, if a man, by leaving behind all these and looking beyond them, might be converted to This and behold It.

Plotinus

>>14573005
How can light project a shadow?

>“When you hear of the vision of God face-to-face, recall the testimony of St Maximos: “Deification is a direct illumination which has no beginning, but appears in those worthy as something exceeding their comprehension. It is indeed a mystical union with God, beyond intellect and reason, in the age when creatures will no longer know corruption. Thanks to this union, the saints, observing the light of the hidden and more-than-ineffable glory, become themselves able to receive the blessed purity, in company with the celestial powers.”
>The great St Dionysios the Areopagite, who elsewhere terms this light a “super-luminous and theurgic ray”, also calls it the “deifying gift and principle of the Divinity”, that is, of deification. To one who asks how God can transcend the thearchy— the very principle of Divinity—he replies: You have heard that God permits Himself to be seen face-to-face and not in enigmas; that He becomes attached to those worthy as is a soul to its body, to its own members; that He unites Himself to them to the extent of dwelling completely in them, so that they too dwell entirely in Him; that “through the Son “the Spirit is poured out in abundance on us” (Tit. 3:6) and not as something created; and that we participate in Him and He speaks through us—all this you know. But you should not consider that God allows Himself to be seen in His super-essential Essence, but according to His deifying gift and energy, the grace of adoption, the uncreated deification. You should think that that is the principle of the Divinity, the deifying gift, in which one may supernaturally communicate, which one may see and with which one may be united. But the Essence of God, which is beyond principle, transcends this principle, too.
>The Principle of deification, Divinity by nature—the imparticipable Origin whence the deified derive their deification, Beatitude itself, transcendent over all things and supremely thearchic—is inaccessible to all sense perception and to every mind, to every incorporeal or corporeal being. It is only when one or another of these beings goes out from itself and acquires a superior state that it is deified. For it is only when it is hypostatically united to a mind or body that we believe the Divinity to have become visible, even though such union “transcends the proper nature of mind and body. Only those beings united to it are deified by the total presence of the Anointer; they have received an energy identical to that of the deifying Essence, and possessing it in absolute entirety, they reveal it through themselves. “For as the Apostle says, “In Christ the fullness of the Divinity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9).”

St. Gregory Palamas

>>14573038
Ibn Al-Arabi postulates a principle of reflection; Adam; The Great Man or Al-Insān al-Kāmil. That is, the Intellect and, as called in the Islamic Tradition, The Pen. Some Sufis call it the Light of Muhammad.

>>14573072
>the first thing Allah the almighty created was a talking pen

>>14573091
Indeed, in the Islamic Tradition, the Logos is created. "The Pen" is but an allegoric name for it.

>>14573039

>>14573097
sure
>Allah subvocalizes

>>14573099
Are you implying a Platonic influence on Palamism?

>>14572869
God is a question of knowledge, not a question of faith or reason (which are precisely of the same order in comparison to pure intelligence).

bump.
also Peterson is cringe.

>not understanding the Bible is a historical record

>"You do err, not knowing the scriptures" -Jesus

>>14573097
>the Logos is created
But the Qur'an somehow isn't? I am confused...

>>14573398
More on Dionysius, then his influence on Maximus, and his influence on Palamas.
Before these we have Plotinus and Origen on the Cappadocians.
Before these we have Plato directly on the pre-nicene fathers.

>>14574534
First was the word

>>14572734
>Also stopped reading
I don't understand why this seems like a thing you should admit

>>14572740
Just as close-minded as ^

>>14572777
>You have no real conception of God
I didn't clarify my relationship with God or what my idea of God is
>people like pseuden peterstein don't believe in God and try to word salad it into something to justify their beliefs
He has stated his agnosticism. You are implying a sort of objectivity to the nature of God and religion that I don't think is justified (with the rest of your post as well.) Peterson also recommends religious poetry and prose, prayer, meditation, and of course the effort to do good things so I am again brought to question if we're even talking about the same person or if you have ever listened to anything he has to say and done so without contempt.

>>14572824
Clarify what you mean by Reign of Quantity, if ya will

>>14572869
I kind of agree, but you should clarify. I see faith as the belief that everything will work out if you do what you think is right, and reason is the procession of that.
So, to me, God is the action of righteous reasoning, and faith is the following of that reasoning.

>>14572960
Why is he an atheist and when has he been disingenuous? I don't want to be a blind follower of anything so help me out here. Also, would his self-authoring program not be a morally responsible action?

>>14572968
I admit I don't know much about theology. When I say theology I mean an idea of a sovereign logos or being; the transcendental that we can comprehend. When I say philosophy I mean a certain psychical system that one can engage in. In other words:
"... make use of a mental process that communicates with a sovereign ideal to structure that honesty!"


I really appreciate all the contributions to this thread. I have already learned more and have added to my reading list.

https://discord.gg/FFwRXKq

>>14574770
>sovereign logos
That's heresy. The Logos is purely subordinate to God.

I went through the same thing as you when I was 14. Trust me when I say Peterson is overrated and a pseud.

Move on from Peterson and look into actual thinkers and philosophers. When you realise there is a world outside Peterson that is much more interesting and not dishonest you won’t regret leaving Kermit behind.

I’m serious when I say you will look back and cringe at your adoration for Peterson

>>14574770
>Clarify what you mean by Reign of Quantity, if ya will

>>14572824

>Unironically quoting René Guénon

I can't tell when I'm being meme'd anymore.

>>14575022
>I’m serious when I say you will look back and cringe at your adoration for Peterson
This. I didn't even adore the guy much, just thought he was "smart" and had "wise insight" and now I f*cking cringe just at the mere thought of it.

>>14575048
The ineffable Réné Guénon (pbuh) was a true blessing to have in our wretched times. Mark my unironic and sincere words: he was the most important philosopher (in the true sense of the word) of his century. Hopefully this century too will provide us with another guiding light as powerful as Guénon's (pbuh).

>>14575071
>Hopefully this century too will provide us with another guiding light as powerful as Guénon's (pbuh).
Based. This. I can already see he will be a lit poster and answer questions and preach and spread guidance directly on here. We're living in historical times.

>>14572727
>>>/his/

>>14574770
>You are implying a sort of objectivity to the nature of God and religion that I don't think is justified
You deeply misunderstand the nature of God in that case.

>>14575071
>of his century
and retroactively of all the previous centuries.

>>14575048
All posting is meme posting on /lit/.

>>14574770
Also, learn to pray to God and make it a daily ritual, do it at the very least three times a day.

>>14572727
watch this 20 min vid (even if you are a catholic or orthodox) if you don't have a certainty that you are saved and going to heaven.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8xZTVKx0Dc

>>14574992
Is God not the logos?

>>14575022
I am not taking anything Peterson says as gospel, I would not say I adore him but rather that I respect his message. I am defending him because I think the complete antagonization of his messages (as I have seen so much of here) is really harmful when there is some obvious good there. As I said in my original post:
On his lectures,
>how much hope they provide for the future of religion
It is apparent that religion (at least in the west) is in downfall. I have listened to about 10 of Peterson's lectures on interpretations of the bible. He prefaces by admitting that this is a learning process for him, and during his lecture on the stories of Abraham, he gets emotional when commenting on how attentive everyone is when we talks about responsibility and how important that is.
It just seems to me you guys are so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm trying really hard to not be called a fanboy right now when all I am trying to say is that he just might have a bit to provide. I just supposed that he might be trying to push people in a healthy direction and make use of religion as a foundation and everyone loses their shit.
>When you realize there is a world outside Peterson
Does the audacity of this not set you back a bit, guy? The hike I was on was the Appalachian Trail; I finished all ~2,200 miles of it this past September and I just applied for my PCT permit. I could say more but I don't intend to justify my breadth of experience because I know it is small, but I am not you at 14.

>>14575040
Why do you say Peterson is part of that?
>As soon as it has lost all effective communication with the supra-individual intellect, reason cannot but tend more and more toward the lowest level, toward the inferior pole of existence, plunging ever more deeply into 'materiality'...
Peterson references Pinocchio a lot. In one instance he notes the wishing upon a star to be a transcendental action.
When Noah walks with God he can be said to be aiming at that star.
Now something I could use your help with: I understand that we *reason* what is right and wrong, so perhaps one value isn't supra-individual on its own, but what about the process of readjusting to what is right? To rephrase, when Noah walked with God, perhaps each step wasn't supra individual, but instead the path it formed was transcendental.

>>14575103
You implied that because Peterson's God was invalid because it didn't match your God

>>14575224
This is good advice

>>14572727
Why doesnt God let me know of his plan regarding me?

>>14575385
>never read the strait gate parable that Jesus used

For wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction

>>14575397
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search it out -Proverbs

>>14575103
>>14575393
I meant to cut out "because"

>>14575419
but why conceal it? what does it serve?

>>14575071
>>14575091
what is this reddit shit, stop making people think guenon is fucking gay you retard. is this your intent?

>>14575397
Perhaps God isn't a figure with a plan for you
Perhaps God is what you understand to be the right thing to do, and you need to have faith that things will work out when you do it

It sounds cheesy but follow your heart and everything will be ok

>>14572727
My religion is not your cheap, marketable, pop psychology. I wish all you petersonfags would shut up for good.

>>14575453
>follow your heart
i cant. my brain (OCD) is ruling too much.

>>14575484

>"My" religion

Imagine being this self-absorbed.

>>14575509
>self-absorbed
Hmmm.. that's a word only women and homosexuals use. You gay, bro?

>>14575484
>my religion
Your interpretation. You can be offended by that or you can reconsider how the cultures formed from a great work like the Bible can change over time.
>cheap, marketable, pop psychology
Peterson pays the university for their auditorium so he can share these interpretations he has found and continues to learn. Pop psychology doesn't mean it's false, it means it is what is widely accepted about the human mind today. It is not as though the authors of the bible had zero understanding of the underlying operations of self. Please tell me what is wrong with applying a modern psychological lens to the Bible.

>>14575493
This is where I may fail you but try meditation. Fuck what anon's say about memes and whatever else, it is a time-tested practice that you can experience yourself. Just *try* to follow your breath for 30 min a day, and I emphasize try because meditation is an effort like any other workout. It is the movement towards tranquility, not the state itself.
Go hiking
Set a schedule for your day that revolves around the cultivation of hobbies and social interaction
Write down at the end of the day what you know you shouldn't have done that day, and ***make an effort to be better the next day***

>>14575577
isnt meditation different from prayer?

>>14575577
I'm sorry, but you're stupid and not worth a refutation.

>>14572777
12 Rules for Life is essentially a Christian self-help book hidden under a bunch of lobster metaphors. Peterson absolutely believes in the concept of a God, but preaches agnosticism so as to not alienate half of his incel audience.

>>14572777
Based trips of truth.

>>14575614
Yeah I suppose but I haven't looked well enough into prayer especially to know for sure. When you meditate you are developing your focus -I.e. your ability to direct your mind (perhaps in time away from tendencies of OCD).
Prayer is something like asking yourself questions. We pray on our knees to submit ourselves to the ideal/right thing to do

>>14575649
Thank you for the sign off

>>14575449
>guenon is fucking gay
based...

>>14572727
Such discussions are legitimately intellectual and a such do not belong here. I have come to similar conclusions and can recommend C S Lewis and Roger Scruton for further reading.
Good luck Anon.

>>14575393
OP I was obviously talking about the intellectual world outside of Peterson. Jordan really isn’t that groundbreaking.

https://www.amazon.com/Jordanetics-Journey-Humanitys-Greatest-Thinker-ebook/dp/B07JY9XV38

All this theorizing and pontificating on God as an external other, an abstract eternal absolute who is changless and perfect and the source of all particularity, is incredibly deeply flawed. To posit that all existence emerges as the reflection of an unchanging, eternal will creates a model of existence locked into static impenetrability and isolated from your own direct experience by its very duality.

Divinity exists in the infinite, open potential implicit in the very lack of an identity. Further, this opens a route for us to actually unite with and engage with the divine, rather than forever being walled off by the existence of a concrete 'self' and 'other.'

This is what God is - the open infinite expanse of possibility in a world devoid of duality, and open to our non dual unity with it.

>>14572727
The conception of God in the Urantia papers is the most sophisticated and advanced I have come across so far.


1:2.1.God is primal reality in the spirit world; God is the source of truth in the mind spheres; God overshadows all throughout the material realms. To all created intelligences God is a personality, and to the universe of universes he is the First Source and Center of eternal reality. God is neither manlike nor machinelike. The First Father is universal spirit, eternal truth, infinite reality, and father personality.

1:2.2.The eternal God is infinitely more than reality idealized or the universe personalized. God is not simply the supreme desire of man, the mortal quest objectified. Neither is God merely a concept, the power-potential of righteousness. The Universal Father is not a synonym for nature, neither is he natural law personified. God is a transcendent reality, not merely man's traditional concept of supreme values. God is not a psychological focalization of spiritual meanings, neither is he "the noblest work of man." God may be any or all of these concepts in the minds of men, but he is more. He is a saving person and a loving Father to all who enjoy spiritual peace on earth, and who crave to experience personality survival in death.

God can never be known it is an oxymoron for it implies there's a knower and the known ,subject object duality . God can only be realized in state of All is I
>When will you reasoncels ever learn?

>>14575953
I have been arguing for the positive effect Peterson has on popular culture, everything else has been defense. I don't think he's groundbreaking I think he's icebreaking and there's a difference.

Nothing of value has been said in theology and moral philosophy since the Middle Ages. Every attempt to fuse theology with modern philosophies of the day turned into anthropocentric if not egocentric secular humanistic theologies and moral philosophies that are not binding and thus can be viewed as more or less beautiful but peculiar and thus dismissed. The ideas that OP seem to entertain are of the same genus. They don’t edify man to the level of the divine, but instead degrade the divine to the level of man.

>>14576139
ur gay lol

bump.

>>14572777
your god is not good

Literally who?

>>14575983
The only based post in the entire thread

>>14572727
>19 year old normie tells us he had a cool religious epiphany while hiking and listening to podcast
>everyone dog piles him for not being a cynical jaded 28 year old who’s been reading philosophy for 12 years

Read idea of the holy by rudolf Otto