/lit/ - Literature

>>14559370
According to Poststructuralist belief, the label "Muslim" is entirely subjective to the person being asked and has no real absolute value whatsoever.

Saying Guenon wasnt a Muslim, is exactly the same as saying Liberal Muslims arent Muslims, Shia Muslims arent Muslims, Sunni Muslims arent Muslims, Wahhabis arent Muslims, Ahmadiyyas arent Muslims, ad infinium etc.

Read some theory for once in your life kid.

>>14559373
>According to Poststructuralist belief

I stopped reading here

>>14559373
Based. Its only a matter of time before the traditionalist school realises they are on the same side as postmodernists.
Then this revolution can really get underway

>>14559370
>essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything, he is even the only one who is; but he can "settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition according to circumstances, and especially for reasons of an initiatory nature
Two wrongs doesn't make a right.
>unity of traditions
Nope.
>"settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition
Fucking ecumenist.
That some truths are found in most faith is nothing but the shared innate wisdom in the Nous of Man, its not from a unity of the principle doctrines of each religion. These wisdoms persist in spite of the multitude of contradictory faiths.

>>14559380
t. incel reactionary
Read a book before you make retarded posts on 4chan x

>>14559370
So...Muslim?

>>14559382
>Its only a matter of time before the traditionalist school realises they are on the same side as postmodernists.

imagine not having understood anything that much

>>14559384
this topic is for people who have read Guénon which is obviously not your case since you talk about ecumenism and contradictory views while the unity is from the top. yes the edges of the base of a pyramid are not identical but the top is one.

>>14559387
t. hasnt read Evola, Land, Deleuze, Nietzsche, Heidegger or Dugin

Stop posting and pick up a book

>>14559385
> muh incel muh reuctionury

shut the fuck you braindead cucky leftist

>>14559392
> imagine putting nietzsche next to guenon and evola and think you've understood something about traditionalism

>>14559394
>cucky
confirmed incel. literally pick up a book, this is supposed to be a literature board

>>14559399
>incel

confirmed cuck modernist cunt

>>14559398
t. hasnt read Evola, Land, Deleuze, Nietzsche, Heidegger or Dugin

Come back when you know something about the Philosophers you are trying to talk about

>>14559403
>braindead npc

>>14559402
Post modernism is the antithesis to Modernism retard.
It includes rejecting all the metanarritives in "orthodox" religion and interpreting the scriptures in your own way. One that transcends any herd mentality dogma.

That's literally what Guenon did

>>14559408
>npc memes
lol, thanks for confirming you have never read any of the listed Philosophers.

>>14559412
Almost as if words get meaningless when appropriated by plebs, like liberalism, socialism, fasicsm etc

>>14559412
> It includes rejecting all the metanarritives in "orthodox" religion and interpreting the scriptures in your own way.
= modernism

>>14559412
>That's literally what Guenon did
this is literally the reason why Guenon rejects Protestantism and what he pejoratively calls individualism, the rejection of traditional authorities in favour of modern free inquiry, see 'The Crisis of the Modern World', Chapter V - Individualism.

>>14559416
exactly. Thats the point of postmodernism. Even Postmodernism has been appropriated by retard Marxists.

Labels have a meaning thats imposed on them by the herd mentality of society, a good example is how Google and Wikipedia have a monopoly over all definitions and meanings of things in the modern tech age.

>>14559420
No, thats postmodernism.
Guenon rejects Protestantism because it was just a modernised meta narrative of Christianity

>>14559426
no, go read the chapter you retarded fuck he rejects it LITERALLY for the reason you gave, namely their rejection of traditional authorities and their interpretation in favor of the modern free examination where everyone gives the meaning he wants to texts and labels which is LITERALLY your shitty modern ideology. you've never read guenon you're a moron. no reason to be traditionalist if everyone makes up his mind about everything. on that, i'm going, bye trisomic.

>>14559434
seething

>>14559391
sounds like the calvinist "invisible church". [A] tradition is the visible structural element of a school/church/faith.
[The Tradition] subsists within [a] tradition, playing pretend with it to survive. Speaking through allegory with apparent and unapparent exegesis (the apparent here being nothing but cover up). Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite is the prime exemplar of this.
It's not because there are any actual secret doctrines, no knowledge is inherently hidden "just because", it's because it has been dangerous throughout history to speak them that we turn to parables and secrecy.
But the traditions of Sunni or Shia Islam have nothing to do with "The Tradition". In Islam Muhammad spoke to the lowest man, there are no intentional esoteric dimensions in the Quran.
Again, like Pseudo-Dionysius, the Philosophers of the Tradition under Islam solely used the Quran as protection from the Quran; talking nicely about the "prophet" to survive.

>>14559451
This.

>>14559370
This is like saying that Mansur Hallaj wasnt a real Muslim.

>>14559451
>sounds like the calvinist "invisible church".

No. Go read Guénon. especially his explanation of exotericism and esotericism and the difference between syncretism and synthesis.

>>14559468
You clearly havent even read his first book "introduction to the hindu doctrines" where he talks about Taoism being a parallel "hidden" tradition alongside Confucianism.

That dosent mean that being a Taoist automatically means you cant be a Confucianist

>>14559471
You're confusing everything. Just because he says that about Taoism doesn't mean it's true of all esotericisms. And if I've read this book, I know it by heart, it's the first one that everyone should read to learn about Guénon.

>>14559451
Absolute brainlet.

>>14559475
And yes* 'ive read the book

>>14559475
Sufism is to Islam what Taoism is to Confucianism.
Just because Salafis and Wahhabis say that Sufis arent real Muslims dosen't mean that the Salafis are right.

This comes back to the Post Modernist argument that the label "Muslim" has no absolute value in itself, it only has value in the subjective mind of the person using the label.

Your subjective interpretation of "Muslim" is different from Rene Guenons interpretation of "Muslim" which is also different from the Salafi interpretation of "Muslim" which is also different from the Twelver Shia interpretation of "Muslim"

>>14559483
>Just because Salafis and Wahhabis say that Sufis arent real Muslims dosen't mean that the Salafis are right.

I have not once spoken of the salafis you retarded, but of the nullifiers of islam. the 5 points of Guénon's belief that I gave falls under nullifiers according to all the schools of 3aqida, Sunni and shi'as, and the schools of fiqh.

>This comes back to the Post Modernist argument that the label "Muslim" has no absolute value in itself, it only has value in the subjective mind of the person using the label.

I've already explained to you why we have to wipe the floor with your intrinsically modern ideology if we want to understand Guénon : >>14559434

>Your subjective interpretation of "Muslim" is different from Rene Guenons interpretation of "Muslim"

>"I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything"

Guenon is clear af

>>14559370
This is actually a common belief of most Sufi Muslims.
Look up "Mansur Hallaj"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hallaj

>>14559483
I'm not going to waste any more time with you, have a nice day, modern man.

>>14559489
>>14559491

>>14559491
Maybe that's why I end my post by saying he was Sufi?

>The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.

>>14559489
Sunni and Shias also accuse each other of not being Muslims. So who is right?

>>14559497
And Sufis are Muslims, according to Sufis.
Shias are Muslims according to Shias
Sunnis are Muslims according to Sunnis.

Now do you see what the Postmodernist argument is?

>it's another 'abdal hakim murad accidentally talks about Pythagoras and The One' episode
>we see here how Being engulfs... oh uh, duuuh, praise Muhammad pbuh. I am just a good sufi "Muslim"

>>14559370
Why can't you accept Islam to be the kino religion that it is

>>14559652
This.

>>14559652
>>14559670
islam is shit

>>14559801
>Literally afraid and envious of the beauty and truth of the Religion that will overtake yours.

>>14559813
i'm an ex muslim you dumbfuck

>>14559837
You are quite rude, too, dear Sir. And your intellect seems to be faulty; it's no wonder that you have recoiled from God.
Have you abandoned Sunni, Shia or petro-Islam?

>>14559370
>I have ascended

Good thread. Islam is the worst religion on earth exoterically speaking.

>>14559979
>exoterically speaking
this is a meaningless notion.

>>14559982
Islam is a meaningless pseudoreligion.

>>14559987
Says whom?

>>14559652
I'm not going to lie hijabs make me rock hard

>>14559373
>Ahmadiyyas arent Muslims
They aren't
>OH HEY GUYS DID YOU KNOW I AM A PROPHET TOO?

People sucking demiurge cock too hard , ofc Islam egregore as it is would try to put everything under its wing to gain more power as any egregore would.
I have read little of Sufism yet i can its valid path to liberation as its similar to other paths i walked and universal truths it speaks.

At least take Dalai Lamas position of looking at worship of external entities as something disgraceful.
Throw all beliefs and concepts in the trash and only then can you start making actual spiritual gain instead of being a brainlet serving,feeding egregores.Namaste
>All mystical paths lead to same destination to one absolute truth
Remember that lads

It depends on what you mean by "Muslim". Guénon claimed that only esoterically can you be a real Muslim. Jesus said "it is the spirit that gives life" then he said his words are spirit. The word became flesh. So there are outermost religious people, a soulish religious person and then there is the innermost spiritual life, which is spiritual adulthood. The outermost is for many useful purposes but it has no life of it's own. Do not give what is holy to the dogs.

>>14560346
why do u talk of dalai lama then of egregores

>>14559979
based

This post is unironically correct. If you read biographies of Guenon and many of the other traditionalists, you see how little understanding of Islam they actually have. Schuon said that Guenon had hardly any Sufi books in his library other than Ibn Arabi and was much more focused on Hinduism throughout his life.

Guenon loves to say how initiation is for a hidden elite, but the very order within he was initiated regularly had mass peasant initiations where hundreds were haphazardly initiated at once. He is projecting the structure of masonry on to all initiatory organizations.

>>14561010
>but the very order within he was initiated
which tariqa?

Most Muslims don’t even consider him Muslim anyways. It’s not like he’s some major Islamic figure or writer, he’s just influenced a lot of Muslim traditionalists.

>>14561010
>Guenon loves to say how initiation is for a hidden elite
citation needed. in reign of quantity he says how even traditional craftsmanship was initiatic in nature until its profanization by modern industry.

>>14559370
https://discord.gg/wSzFjSU

>>14561046
>https://discord.gg/wSzFjSU
?

>>14561051
>>https://discord.gg/wSzFjSU
>?
?

>>14559373
>According to Poststructuralist belief,

Reminder that this Anon paid some washed-up old Marxist pseud to destroy his ability to think

>>14559813
Christianity will overtake Islam.

>>14561176
insha'Yasu'

>>14559385
>incel
stopped reading there

>>14561198
>Jesus’ name and Mohammad’s misunderstanding
Reminds me of this good video
https://youtu.be/GGFSQ5mq_aI

>>14561267
>abrahamic monkeys flinging shit at each other

>>14561267
>David Wood
>good video
OH NO NO NO NO

>>14561271
>abrahamic

That’s not a useful category. Judaism, Islam and Christianity have almost nothing in common. The only similiarity is that both Jews and Muslims get circumcised and abstain from pork. And that Christians include the Pentateuch in the biblical canon. Beyond this, the three traditions split radically from each other at almost 90 degree angles. Jews and Muslims might as well be Hindus as far as Catholics are concerned.

>>14561305
> have almost nothing in common
of course they do, maybe you're just retarded, Jews and Muslims worship the father (YHWH) alone, chrisitians on the other hand worship Jesus and the holy spirit along side YHWH in the trininty, but at the end. its all retarded,

>>14561280
David Wood must be doing something right to be so hated by butthurt Mohammadans. And I don’t understand your pic. How does wearing a dress affect the credibility of someone’s testimony or alter the soundness of their arguments? Mohammad performed deeds a million times more depraved and more vile and selfish.

>>14561319
Muslims don’t worship Yaweh, they worship a demon called ‘Allah’.

>>14561351
"Allah" is the arabic word for God or "the God", chrisitian arabs call Jesus "Allah" OR "RAB which both means God" , again you abrahamic monkeys dont even know your own religions

>>14561372
>OR "RAB which both means God"
rabi* means lord

>>14561390
are you arab? are't you tired of worshipping the jewish God?

>>14561410
>are you arab?
no

>>14561267
This video is a great example of retard "cuck"servative. Literally portrays Paul as bragging about being a Pharisee.

If Christianity had its own denomination with an initiatic tradition, Guenon would’ve been a Christian. Christians silenced all their mystics though so they don’t have one. Islam just happens to be the closest, most accessible religion with mystical denomination in Sufism. If had been Judaism that could’ve filled that role, he would’ve been a Jew, but it couldn’t. It’s literally that simple. I think Guenon would agree that exoteric Islam is more traditional than exoteric Christianity, and therefore preferable for the masses but that’s about the extent of it.

Of much more interest to me is what Evola ended up doing. Surely, he was aware of the importance of initiatic tradition by way of Guenon, but he didn’t seem to follow the Sufi path that Guenon and others did. I’ve seen it claimed that he was secretly a Sufi, like Guenon, but no evidence to support that.

>>14559373
This isn't true at all. Read Ash'ari. There has always been a million sects with many beliefs (like Islam having only 3 pillars or there being Prophets after Muhammad) There are a set beliefs (the five pillars, Muhammed being the last Prophet) are what define a Muslim, no matter how distasteful you find their other beliefs. I can't believe you would trust the opinion of a bunch of neo-Orientalists and people with no knowledge of fiqh to tell you what a Muslim is. Would you go to a Shiekh for what Marxism is? Of course, that is what Westerners do with every non-Western religion because they cannot help but project onto everything