/lit/ - Literature

>>14476279
more like which book proves it
>protip there isn't any

>>14476279
Bro, you just posted cringe

>>14476412

>>14476279
>>>/pol/
No-one cares if they bully you out, take this shit somewhere else.

>>14476433
Sean BTFO it

STRAWMAN: I present to you my thesis.
REASONABLE MAN: This is silly.
STRAWMAN: I WILL KILL YOU AND RAPE YOUR CORPSE AAAAAaaaaaAAAAAAaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaAAAAAAAAAaaaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
REASONABLE MAN calmly walks away.

>>14476279
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A#Gene

>>14476279
Any creationist work which isn't Mormon. Don't confuse creationism with intelligent design and you're golden or whatever colour God decided to make you.
If you want to believe in genetics and evolution though, you're shit out of luck.
If you think race=skin tone, you're fucking retarded and need to get out more.

>>14476279
Epic meme bro XD you should post it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/

>>14476511
chad gene

>>14476279
I love how he repeated the punchline four times. Was this even meant to be funny?

>>14476637
left can't meme

they're trying to copy the success of comics like stonetoss, in the second, they're failing

>>14476470
>Sean
Foremost leftist intellectual and one of the brightest minds of our time. Would highly recommend all my comrades to subscribe to him.

>>14476470
Shaun did nothing of the sort. I'd recommend actually reading the book if you want to have an actual discussion about it, something which he evidently didn't actually do. Sean's quoting of the mismeasure of man was especially telling given that nearly every replication attempt surrounding Gould's work has shown him to have been an exact example of the bias that he was supposedly trying to demonstrate in others.

>>14476279
There are no books that can "debunk" race realism in any meaningful way. The closest anyone comes is semantic arguments over clusters vs clines. A simple thought experiment can demonstrate to you what a lack of race realism would imply. If "race realism" were to be a false preposition it would be entirely possible for two people whose DNA clusters towards ~100% Han Chinese parents to have a ~100% Somali child. This is simply not reality, and the best arguments to be made against "race realism" can only be made on semantic grounds because the biology is not on the side of race denialism.

>>14476412
What is there to prove? Are you actually going to make the argument that there are no genetic components to racial trait differences? The best you can do is tactical nihilism surrounding the word "race" (meanwhile everyone knows what the fuck you mean when you say Black or East Asian or Australian Aboriginal and we only like to play dumb because at the moment the people who have power like to pretend this isn't the case).

>>14476493
why are political comics always garbage like this?

>>14476850
"Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink."

>>14476279
>Appeals to humiliation for contradicting the group mind
Leftists truly are oversocialized

>>14476663
Even though I really want to try being neutral about it, but I really cannot through the Part IV. Their recommendation on political model is at least not followed by premise, and in some times, worsen the race-realist situation.
Why should race realism have to imply an end to existing policies that would encourage less intelligent people to have more children?

>>14476856
t. le based enlightened radical centrist

>>14476279
>heres this cartoon i believe can you prove it wrong by proving me wrong eventhough im biased and wont believe anything you say because if it implies that races have a beneficial trait?

dont make me laugh anon

>>14476690
>>14476734
Why can't they just admit that race exists, but assert that the differences are minor?

They're asking me to deny basic observable reality.

>>14476991
they're parochial racists

>>14476433
In every thread, I see the tendency that people on both sides agreed on one claim, which Gould's opposition being the most naive one here. Under no circumstances, we should not agree with him.
So here is the one. The biggest argument of him on the book is that the book has unsubstantiated presuppositions. namely
>Intelligence must be reducible to a single number.
>Intelligence must be capable of rank ordering people in a linear order.
>Intelligence must be primarily genetically based.
>Intelligence must be essentially immutable.
I want to know how race-realist counters this argument by pointing out that he never implied this.

>>14477041
ESL?

>>14476690
Your hidden assumption is that "race" is equivalent to genetic clustering. The English word has a lot of social baggage that has nothing to do with population genetics. Race-realism normally refers to a political position taken by white nationalists, not a scientific position.

>>14477778
>losing your quints to this
>>14477777

>>14476433

>>14476602
Kek and based

>>14476690
I'll add that this
>>14477778
>Your hidden assumption is that "race" is equivalent to genetic clustering.
Is a big ol red flag that you don't know what you're talking about. With this retarded assumption someone who is "100% Han" is more like a genetic average man for that apparent population, although that in itself is meaningless.

>>14476279
none

>>14477896
>With this retarded assumption someone who is "100% Han" is more like a genetic average man for that apparent population, although that in itself is meaningless.
On the contrary, I'd say this sentence is meaningless. Are you using Google translate?

>>14477938
>I'd say this sentence is meaningless.
No, you just don't understand it.
>Are you using Google translate?
Oh it's an ESL accuses others of being ESL episode. I'm a native Ingurlish speaker from Ingurlund, it's not going to fly.

>>14476279
Just imagine how absolutely SEETHING the person who made this comic was.

>>14476991
What exactly do you mean by race differences are minor? Minor relative to what? Minor in the sense that they result in only visible changes in people's appearance and no differences in aggregate behavioral patterns or social organization, because that's just not true? Minor in the sense that they aren't strictly deterministic? What do you mean by the differences being minor?

>>14477778
"Race" is the result of phenotypical differences that can be explained in large part by genetic differences. All "Race Realism" means is that race is more than skin color, and that even though individuals may not correspond well to the average for their racial group, the differences in behavioral traits at the mean matter when developing and organizing a society unless you have a strict self-selection bias away from that mean. That's all that it means, that racialized trait divergence is primarily a biological phenomenon (which is inarguable) and that these trait divergences are important when making decisions about large scale populations in which these average differences are likely to occur. This is about as "scientific" as any other anthropological/sociological position can be, and in fact surveys of experts in fields where these issues are relevant (e.g. Evolutionary Psychology, Neuroscience, Molecular Biology etc.) show that it's primarily a western thing that people do not understand this basic reality.

>>14477896
You realize that the population doesn't need to be stagnant for us to see a large difference in average phenotypical traits between two population groups and be able to assess how much of that difference is genetic right? You're implying that for assessments of racial ancestry (and linkage of traits to that ancestry) to occur there must be some genetic information which is 100% specific to Han Chinese and never changing, which is absolutely ridiculous and something no one in the field believes.

>>14478168
You realize you don't understand what PCA is, right? Also:
>there must be some genetic information which is 100% specific to Han Chinese and never changing, which is absolutely ridiculous and something no one in the field believes.
I don't know what field you're referring to specifically, but there'll be plenty of genetic info that's specific to Han Chinese.

>>14476433
30 year old book that's been refuted a million times

>>14477896
>Is a big ol red flag that you don't know what you're talking about

Race ks a social construct, deal with it

>>14478147
>All "Race Realism" means is that race is more than skin color

You do realize that the definition of race is completely arbitrary right? If I wanted I could classify gingers as a different race than the rest of humans

>>14478514
>Race ks a social construct, deal with it
No, I agree, but there's a general lack of education in genetics and stats around so we're getting a bunch of practically nonsensical posts.

>>14476412
J. Philippe Rushton - Race, Evolution, and Behavior

>>14478514
Just because something is categorized arbitrarily doesn't make it somehow less useful for describing the world.

>If I wanted I could classify gingers as a different race than the rest of humans
That's like saying I could make up a nonsense word, therefore language is irrelevant and useless

>>14478622
Social constructs are not the same as arbitrary.
>That's like saying I could make up a nonsense word, therefore language is irrelevant and useless
Non sequitur.

>>14476412
Just watch the local news. That proves it quite well

>>14478631
>Social constructs are not the same as arbitrary
ESL moment? Language is obviously social, and clearly arbitrary

ITT: People with 65 different definitions of "race" argue that they are correct with nobody understanding anything and no common definition being established.

Race is a social construct in the same way that colour is. There absolutely is a concrete thing and differences out there but there is still a interpretation to be made of said thing.

>>14478643
So fuck it why define anything then.

>>14478643
>65 different definitions
it's literally just people with common sense and "muh construct" posters. I have yet to see anything else

>>14478643
>I plead Hume on the colour blue
That's gonna be lonely

race realism:

>my group is good
>any group that is not my group is bad

>>14478642
>ESL moment?
No dude, stop hoping for it to be someone else's problem. You're just shit at English. Think about what it means to construct something in a social sense, you'll find that its far from arbitrary. That's aimed at >>14478514 too, they're distinct terms if they're to be meaningful.

>>14478677
You're going to have to explain all the race realists who worship Japan, in that case

>>14478671
>it's literally just people with common sense
Boomer detected.

>>14478677
I can be racist without being a race realist it isn't hard.

>>14478677
there's objective metrics here though, the accomplishments of groups

no-one wants to live in Africa for a reason anon

>>14478642
No it's not lmao. That's like saying your phenotype is arbitrary.

>>14478686
they worship japan as an example of what they think their group should strive for

>>14478700
But that's not socially constructed.

>>14478700
Is language not social, or not arbitrary? Please specify, then explain

>>14478706
I meant explain how race realism could be something as braindead as "my group good, any outside group bad" when its proponents so often worship and aspire to be like an outside group

>>14478707
It is partially.

>>14478661

Well for example something like a carrot is pretty simple to define as opposed to race which is already used in a varied way and all those different meanings are pretty complex. I am not saying that there could not be a commonly accepted definition for things, and not just saying that "it cant be exactly defined so not real and BAD".

Americans use the word "black" and "white" to mean races, even though there is wide variance inside those categories (but also an actual feature that defines them and differentiates between them.) For someone who speak of race as nationality this is already completely foreign and "wrong" to use the word like this.

Isn't it more useful to have a specific term to mean an actual thing than to fail making a point due to language? Why hold on to a difficult word if you could make a more substantive point with some other word?

>>14478671

There is no such thing as common sense. No actual person actually claims that race is socially constructed at the physical level, you can just look at different peoples and see that. What is meant is that the factors used to define race are socially constructed.

>>14478458
You're missing what I was saying. The important part of that statement is the "and never changing" portion. The whole point of what I was saying is that population changes overtime do not invalidate our ability to discern between them.

>>14478514
You realize our definition of the color red is completely arbitrary right? "You realize the meanings of words are decided by the people who use them" is your argument against the overwhelming reality that different racial groups have different aggregate tendencies and outcomes. This is tactical nihilism and a non-serious argument.

>>14476850
Dissocation propaganda is very effective on oversocialized normal fags. Simply present vague view and have a caricature embody it, suggest that if you can be compared to the caricature you ARE that caricature in the eyes on your peers. It makes you extra careful to not give off the "wrong impression" or worse makes you abandon beliefs or behaviours entirely for fear of loss of social capital or even ostracization.

>>14478726
It's observable features, or is this the part where you start deconstructing language?

>>14478682
Jesus your English fucking blows.
"social constructs are not arbitrary" is how a native would phrase it. Arbitrary is an adjective.
Even after clarifying this, you did still say the definition of race is arbitrary, so I don't see how that refutes anything

>deny everything
RREEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>14478734
>There is no such thing as common sense
Is this a cope because you don't have any?

>>14478739
>"social constructs are not arbitrary" is how a native would phrase it.
Is that how they taught you in your overly prescriptive English lessons?

>>14478747
>>14478739
Also, social constructs can be arbitrary, you changed the meaning.

>>14478734
>Americans use the word "black" and "white" to mean races, even though there is wide variance inside those categories (but also an actual feature that defines them and differentiates between them.) For someone who speak of race as nationality this is already completely foreign and "wrong" to use the word like this.

It's a broad definition so what, everyone knows what is implied by black or white but I'm sure if you wanted to be anal you could label specific genetic clusters and then find even finer definition and label those subtle variations and on and on. It's basically the same argument as saying there's only one colour on a rainbow because no one can point to the exact point blue transitions into purple.

>>14476690
Dude if we were born 100 years ago that poverty would literally make us retarted by todays IQ metric.

>>14478737
Social constructs would be like a subset of nurture, phenotype is also affected by environment and what have you.

>>14477736
Man, this book sucked dick. Instead of refuting any arguments made by race realists she just pulls the "there's more variation between races than without" card and in other situations she just outright calls researchers racists as if that's enough to disregard their findings.

>>14478763
Also how we choose what is a phenotype is partly socially constructed much of the time.

>>14478763
>phenotype is also affected by environment and what have you.
The environment is what you have phenotype is an expression of genes in a given environment.

>>14478765
>she just pulls the "there's more variation between races than without" card
That's a perfectly fine argument though.

>>14478747
>my English isn't laughably bad, you're just too good
The absolute state of 3rd worlders

>>14478774
>The environment is what you have
It's a fucking chat bot.

>>14478765
"There's more variation within races than without", I should say

>>14478776
It's not if you're trying to debunk the idea of genetic differences between populations altogether. All you're doing when you say that is that genetic differences DO exist, but in much greater detail than "black, white, asian, etc".

>>14478778
And a narc to boot. Dude, your language ability is not great.

You know what I find curious? Even in the west among boomers and gen X where everyone is just seen as some lumpy mess of "white" ethnicities, the south Italians are always specifically referred to as Italian, no matter the generation. You will never hear a boomer refer to a friend as "french" or "German" or "croatian" specifically unless they are immigrants that were actually born in that country, but southern Italians naturally give of an "this in an other" vibe that gets even the most racially unaware individuals the inclination to affirm they are part of an outgroup.

>>14478782
I probably could have put that more elegantly but you've not made a single good case for the deconstruction of phenotype or categorisation.

>>14478784
>It's not if you're trying to debunk the idea of genetic differences between populations altogether.
I've not read the book, but are you sure that's the aim? It's a really bog standard argument against there being meaningful separation between two groups in stats.
>All you're doing when you say that is that genetic differences DO exist, but in much greater detail than "black, white, asian, etc".
No, you can't continue to scrutinize down and still get meaning from the data. It's like overfitting a model.

>>14478782
Butthurt brown third worlders have flooded the thread to defend themselves

>>14478790
Hmm, that's really interesting, care to tell me more?

>>14478759

Just please read the whole thing I type. I KNOW AND ACCEPT THAT RACE AS A HUMAN FEATURE EXISTS but that it is difficult to talk about and therefore a super-loaded word is maybe not the perfect way to talk about it. And anyone who wants to be taken seriously needs to stop arguing against the socially constructed nature of "race" and just define it in an useful way.

Yes, it is socially constructed that we use certain actual features to differentiate groups of people, but these features are not ascribed but they are real features of those people and this categorization serves an proper function in something we as a collective want. There, 600 messages worth of non-discussion avoided.

>>14478761
And yet as wealth and access to resources has increased to the point of even the poorest in America having more access to survival and information resources than the wealthiest people 100 years ago could have ever imagined, the gap between racial groups has remained almost entirely stagnant (even increasing in European nations where the African/Subcontinental populations were small and generally self selecting for the higher performing members of each population).

Also, there's a significant degree of evidence that the Flynn effect at the very least stagnates after a certain amount of wealth, and some research seems to indicate a reversed intelligence trend as access to resources allows for reproduction by more and more people who previously would not have been able to successfully have and provide for offspring. It will take a few more decades of consistent research before anything even resembling a solid "causal" effect can be demonstrated in either direction, but there is a visible trend towards reduction in national IQ in Western nations and the hypothesis makes sense on a gut check level.

>>14478810
Well done dude, one of the better thought out posts so far.

>>14478788
one might even describe Southern Italians as "unspeakable"

>>14478788
>or "croatian" specifically
It's because you Ameritwats don't even know what that is. You think Serbia is west of Alaska.

>>14478799
>I've not read the book, but are you sure that's the aim?
It was, she was asserting that there were no differences between races on a genetic level. All of her arguments were really infantile and sometimes contradictory, it was like reading a book length twitter argument. I was really disappointed because I wanted to read a real refutation of race realism.

>>14478818
If only the great merciful lord would fight poison with poison; blessing us with a great miasma to asphyxiate them all...

>>14478838
That's the case for most genetic books atm.

Genes aren't a great place to look anyway as we're not bacteria, they're not as important to our existence as living beings as our mechanisms to regulate or control them.

>>14478814
It´s about stress, not wealth.
If your childhood is full of stress you prioritize whatever gives you safety instead of couriosity.
If you know if a medical problem can make you homeless it doesnt matter if you´re actually not poor yet by some metric.

>>14478810
That bullshit semantic word games. You could deconstruct all of taxonomy using just that argument.

>>14478859
Go ahead.

>>14476279
Here you go OP, I fixed it for you :)

>>14478686

great question, i'm glad you asked my weeb friend

japan has the distinction of being "honorary whites", so there is less perceived distance between somewhere like japan and an african. country all of the media that weebs consume comes from japan so they start to identify with the japanese spirit more than the "white" one. you can see the same thing in the usa with white people that pick out the worst traits of black culture to emulate. you see it with blacks and pan africanism, even though an ethiopian and a nigerian have little in common other than skin color. you saw it in ireland with all of their religious issues, which is more subtle, but still fits the same idea. you see it on this board when nordics try to claim greek and roman civilization as their own, while simultaneously suggesting italians and greeks aren't white. my perceived "group" may have zero basis in reality, it doesn't matter. my group good your group bad

>>14476279
Will you fucking Alt Right poltards just stfu and get the fuck out back to your school-shooter Blacked-video shitboard?
The scientists who react with derision to your little buddy's butthurt hate-speech in OP's literally side-splittingly funny and original cartoon are obviously rilly rilly diverse - and diversity is a strength, as we all know - and also I suppose the Ph D certificate on the wall belongs to one or all of them, which means that they've mastered the rigorously demanding, absolutely NOT politically-biased corpus of knowledge that is being transmitted to rising generations at our fine academic institutions today, so if they laugh at him he must be WRONG HAHA u butthurt now little white-supremacist-bro, wait till this year's election and see how butthurt you're going to be there is just NO FUCKING WAY this orange-skinned Putin-puppet could possibly get to be President Rachel Maddow said so and she went to Oxford so FUK U

>>14476883
Thisssssss

>>14478870
So this work does it?

>>14478853
Guy, quit talking out of your ass. My parents were heroin addicts and I still am about 130 IQ (tested in high school because they thought I had bipolar and wanted to rule out an autism spectrum disorder). The wealthiest blacks in America still perform worse on average during both IQ and quantitative work performance evaluations than working class/middle income whites. North east Asians at all income levels perform consistently higher than their corresponding income level population for whites, with a fairly consistent difference of 1/3 to 1/2 standard deviation higher.

You're fighting an uphill battle against reality, and you're not any worse of a friend to your outlier middle class black friend from high school for acknowledging that differences at the mean matter for societal planning. A measure of being a mature adult is being able to separate the unfortunate realities of the world from the way you conduct your individual relationships. Acknowledging that blacks in America will likely never cross over to having an average IQ that is equivalent to or higher than whites doesn't mean you can't have close personal relationships with people of all racial groups if you so choose. Drop the moral guilt and just work on coming to terms with reality, it will make things make a lot more sense.

>>14477800
THE GODS HAVE SPOKEN

>>14478880
>comparing anecdotal evidence to averages over a population

>>14478880

>he thinks iq measures intelligence

>>14476279
Your baity cartoon is backwards, and also dumb. Left cannot meme. In every field rage goes.

>>14478868
I already knew about honorary whites, but I don't see how that classification could been seen as anything other than "your group, while not ours, is at least as good" in the context of race realism.
"My perceived 'group' may have zero basis in reality" doesn't really function as a cop out in the case of race realists unless you're arguing that they unironically perceive the Japanese as genuinely being of the same race as them, rather than a distinct but great race

>>14478672
lol

>>14478698

africa was fine prior to colonialism, the spectre of colonialism is that there is plenty of vested interest in keeping africa poor and helpless, because it is easier to make money off of them like that

>>14478888
It does. That is why the left hates it, because it is a true indicator of intrinsic racial difference.

>>14478810
I don't think arguing that because Americans are retards who don't understand English or science is a good reason for removing the word from the conversation. I'd accept it as a reason to not listen to Americans.
For an example from common use: I would of done X is a common error, but that common error is not a reason to remove the conditional mood from English. It's a reason to correct the error.

>>14478910
>africa was fine prior to colonialism

lol

>>14478888
Please, post the Taleb blog post again like it actually means anything. Go for it. Disregard reality because some guy decided to ignore many basic statistical principles to make a nitpicking argument against something he finds morally inconvenient.

>>14478884
Averages over a population would indicate that being black is worse for your educational/career attainment than just about any familial/medical conditions besides literal terminal illnesses.

>>14478910
>institutional slavery
>essentially neo-lithic standards of medicine
>womans role exclusively baby oroducing AND running homesteads
>hunter gatherers up against lions/elephants/rhinos
>jungle=disease/death
>soil doesn't take to crops- have to wait until whitey brings cassava over from new world to start having national dishes

in all seriousness, by what metric are you determining "fine?" because I am no defender of colonialism, but I can't see how living in mud huts fighting nature for centuries is "fine"

>>14478788
>You will never hear a boomer refer to a friend as "french" or "German" or "croatian" specifically unless they are immigrants that were actually born in that country, but southern Italians naturally give of an "this in an other" vibe that gets even the most racially unaware individuals the inclination to affirm they are part of an outgroup.
How much time do you spend in America. I hear people describing themselves as Irish or German all the time, and they aren’t recent arrivals.

Living in the ghetto.

>>14478910
Sub-Saharan Africa prior to colonization was literally just feral tribals killing each other in the wild with sporadic oases of basic agriculture/trade and pre-civilizational cultural development. Without contact with other population groups there literally would be no African history because there were no stable societies capable of long term preservable records. It was fine in the sense that Black people are well adapted to living in that kind of environment, but it certainly wasn't Wakanda by any stretch of the imagination.

>>14478900

your premise is already screwed because you're operating under the assumption that a 'race realist' is rational. a typical weeb loves japan, he feels lots of positive emotions when he thinks about japan, and he modifies his behavior in an effort to be more like the japanese. he has pushed the whiteness out of his mind (which many not even be legit), and pushed anime in. and none of them think that the japanese are "equal", they tend to think that they are better in the aspects that they care about. race realism is not compatible with any kind of empirical rationalism like most are desperate to believe

>>14478915

if you're not going to congratulate me on my quads i'm not going to waste time arguing with you

>>14478923
>Averages over a population would indicate that being black is worse for your educational/career attainment than just about any familial/medical conditions besides literal terminal illnesses.
Your argument was "I, an individual, performed well on an IQ test, now compare this to the average of other random populations", it was retarded. Not only that, you went on to talk about wealth as a proxy to stress when the person you were replying to stated "It´s about stress, not wealth."

You are a habitual liar and also an idiot.

>>14478928
>How much time do you spend in America
I've literally never left Canada.
>describing themselves
Not what was being noted. It's how others refer to them. Claiming you are French or Irish or whatever is a novelty and they will forget about it once you tell them. People go out of their way to specifically mention south Italians as Italians instead of just who they are or their family name.

>>14478910
Yeah, Culture of Critique documents how mainstream academia started teaching kids like you to blame whites for everything bad happening anywhere in the world. You cannot be blamed for your brainwashing by the Establishment. The fact is that SubSaharan Africa is and always has been a shithole because of its natives.

>>14478910
>keeping africa poor
you brainless shit- do you have any idea how much money/time/effort has been THROWN into africa out of sheer white guilt? what the fuck would keeping them poor benefit anyone? even the chinese who are investing in them like crazy rn are desperately trying to fulfill their end of the bargain and make Africans NOT POOR and the only thing getting in the way is the tenacious stupidity of the underdeveloped
fucking ponce- think before you talk

>>14478934
Nigeria famously had a judicial system and written records. You're ignorant and appealing to ignorance.

>>14478934
This sounds like the English argument for why the Irish didn't win literature and needed to be colonised.

>>14478950
are you too simple to parse an argument from the real world situation?
i encourage you, compare the work of Joyce o the work of Fanon. both smart men, but it ought to be immediately clear the disparity between Fanon and his countrymen and Joyce and his (also considering that Fanon was reaching the intelectual standard of the white man anyways so theresthat too...)

>>14478949
Nigeria famously sold Dutch traders their slaves (captuves from internecine tribal wars) at least the ones they weren't using for breeding purposes

did you read any of those laws and written records? there was a form of contract mentioned in king leopolds ghost (granted this is in the congo now) where two nobles would seal an agreement by beating a slave to death publicly

>>14478939
No, my argument was that "stress" is a bullshit copout for why intelligence differences exist and that it is entirely possible to be intelligent/high performing while also coming from stressful environments. There is no way to quantify "stress" in any meaningful way, hence why proxies like "wealth" and "socioeconomic status" because there's at least some pretense of not pulling it out of your ass there. If you're really going to say that "stress" differences make up that deciding factor, I'd suggest you try an prove that, because that's a very large claim that is far outside the normal results from intelligence research (which has some of the highest replication rates of any social science and higher replication rates than many hard sciences/engineering fields).

>>14478949
Even if you ignore the Malian and Ethiopian empires which whomped the Europeans with written histories and unbroken lineages, oral traditions like Somalian historical poetry are immense feats which Europe hasn't had since the first Library at Alexandria (excluding the Irish tradition for obvious reasons.)

>>14478936
My premise doesn't require race realists to be rational, I'm operating under the premise that they believe what they say (positive things about Japan specifically) and how that doesn't line up with the assertion that they hate every outside group. Asserting that they're just being dishonest and secretly think the Japanese are below them is pretty unconvincing

>>14478972
but historical poetry, while very neat, is only fundamentally useful if you don't have more advanced communicative techonolgoies (like writing)

this is like congratulating a child for being the best crawler in the world while everyone else just walks

>>14478960
Is gaelgóir lífe mé agus ní thuigeann tú Seoige nó Fanon. Or, for an idiot like you, you are too simple to parse Joyce at all, or see how his politics was far more malleable and contradictory than Fanon. I encourage you to not pick fights you have no hope of winning, lúdramán.

>>14478923

draft up your own rebuttal to it and provide your own anecdotes then, it doesn't have to be perfect. with my own anecdotes, i know people with 150 iq that can barely tie their shoes together, and i know supposed "100 iq idiots" that are in charge of corporate departments, so there is quite obviously something missing to me

>>14478924

>institutional slavery

how is this different from the rest of the world? at least in western africa slavery wasn't caste based, you could potentially buy your freedom like a roman or greek slave would

>essentially neo-lithic standards of medicine

they had their own medicine which worked at times for them, and at times it didn't. i'm not sure how you use this as the basis as the need to colonize their respective populations

>>womans role exclusively baby oroducing AND running homesteads

western african societies are overtly matriarchal, with visible and obvious councils of grandmas that would regularly clash with the kang(s) over certain issues. they were in no way powerless. you're just speaking from ignorance here

>hunter gatherers up against lions/elephants/rhinos

sounds kinda fun to me, although i probably wouldn't last long

>jungle=disease/death

yes and europe is cold in the winter and you freeze to death if you don't know what you're doing, and the americas were just as terrifying in their own ways. nature sucks, ok

>soil doesn't take to crops- have to wait until whitey brings cassava over from new world to start having national dishes

this sounds more like a problem with easy access to trade than a justification of colonialism

>in all seriousness, by what metric are you determining "fine?"

all of those problems that you listed are much smaller than the current ones, like criminal despots, hiv/aids, overpopulation. these current ones wouldn't be as bad if there wasn't a vested interest in keeping it that way

>>14478988
>no really we should trust the stories the monks wrote down from the Irish as reflective of the oral tradition which lived alongside and contradicted it openly for another millennium
I'm thinking that would be a dumb plan.

>>14478949
Did you literally not read what I post? "Nigeria" as you refer to it was not some coherent country prior to colonization but rather a set of tribal groups conflicting for territory with the two major ones with social power being Igbo and Yoruba. It was literally a set of tribal pre-civilizational city states surrounded by hunter gatherers and making large utilization of the fact that most of the people surrounding these tribal city states were in a pre-agricultural state and could be easily exploited. This is literally a description of "pre-civilizational oases surrounded by hunter gatherers" as I said. It's similar to saying that prior to the Bronze Age that pre-Germanic tribes had civilization (which they didn't) because they had tribal legal codes and aural histories.

>>14478999
Lífe mar an abhainn nó líofa mar abhainn, is cuma

>>14478999
the point was not about parsing Joyce- it was about holding up two exemplary writers since the comparative model of Ireland/Africa in relation to the English was used- nice deflection though, nwoke idina

>>14479006
I don't need to draft my own. There have been many sufficient responses already which say many of the same things I would in a similar level of formality and higher rigor (read: blog posts to respond to his blog post).

Sean Last probably has the best response to Taleb, though there have been many others along the same line. Taleb's article is a case of a very smart person getting misled by his own feelings and making errors that would be embarrassing for a grad student teaching sophomore level probability/statistics.

>>14478960
>are you too simple to parse an argument from the real world situation?
Try not being a manipulative prick dude.
>compare an Irish writer to a Caribbean writer
>doesn't that show you how different that Irish writer was to other Irish writers and this Caribbean writer was to other Caribbean writers?
Makes no sense.

>>14478968
>did you read any of those laws and written records? there was a form of contract mentioned in king leopolds ghost (granted this is in the congo now) where two nobles would seal an agreement by beating a slave to death publicly
So perennial reminder that Africa is a continent and also go read Discipline and Punish, Foucault. At least the introduction. Boy oh boy would you believe what Euros used to do?

>>14478970
>No, my argument was that "stress" is a bullshit copout for why intelligence differences exist
You're trying to change the debate to what you want and are comfortable with, deal with the arguments in front of you. This is the same as answering the question you wanted in an exam, not the question you were given.

>>14478972
The Yugoslavs get some kudos for oral traditions too bro, but good interesting points.

>>14478988
>but historical poetry, while very neat, is only fundamentally useful if you don't have more advanced communicative techonolgoies (like writing)
Doesn't follow, something like argumentum ad novitatem.

>>14476279
Why do liberal/leftie comics always look like this?
Author's political opponent looks and acts ridiculous and there's no underlying joke except for "ur dumb".
At least stone toss has humor in it and it's author knows about comedic timing and how to setup a punchline. "Left can meme" my ass

>>14479006
>at least slavery here wasn't--
excuses. I explicitly did not defend the rest of the world, I only took issue with the term "fine' and despite your rationales slavery is not fine ever
>medicine that worked
lol I'm sure. again there is no NEED to colonize, just a need to be honest and reflect that living in squalor is not fine
>next point
MATRIARCHY is not always good for women, read Joys of Motherhood and you'll see how tyhe women are both all-responsible and still taken advantage of
>fun
naive whiteboi talk desu
>next point
i'm adding disease to the already existing natural issues like heat/weather
>smaller than current problems
again, by what fucking standard? criminal despots exited, they were just called tribal kings. apply this logic to the rest because this is just exhausting-

tl;dr no one is defending colonialism, YOU proclaimed pre-colonial Africa is fine- what PROOF do you have other than "it wasn't like it is now, sheeit"

>>14479037
Asking me to argue against "stress" being the deciding factor for racial intelligence differences is like asking you to argue against the color blue being the deciding factor. You have provided no evidence for this position beyond your own posturing and are now asking me to argue against an assertion which you have neither defined conditions for success or failure, or even the mechanism by which it works.

>>14476279
That’s what he gets for letting his controversial race work be judged by a woman, a black and a white knight. Of course they’re going to try to tank it.

>>14479037
>caribean writer
>don't be a dick dude
wow you're a retarded faggot, I can't believe Im even responding to you

>>14478880
Dude you´re just rationalising junk science

>>14478934

>Sub-Saharan Africa prior to colonization was literally just feral tribals killing each other in the wild with sporadic oases of basic agriculture/trade and pre-civilizational cultural development

a mixture of anti darky propaganda and outright lies here

>literally would be no African history because there were no stable societies capable of long term preservable records.

cultural and historical facts about a populace have been best preserved orally, and writing systems were used for business and trade. if you're willing to criticize them for that, you'd basically have to criticize all oriental populations at the same time

>>14478943

you have to read more than one book before coming here buddy

>>14478946

in the past half century or so there has been around 500~ billion given to africa in the form of "aid", which has mostly been used by warlords to abuse populations, missionary propaganda designed to increase the population, cdc testing facilities, etc. white guilt is a meme, they make far more money than they give back. just because a few grandmas are getting suckered into throwing a few bucks at the TV when they see a starving african child doesn't mean that white guilt has anything to do with it. china may be another matter as they are attempting to create debt slavery instead of outright rape, so it will remain to be seen what happens with that

>>14478838
>I wanted to read a real refutation of race realism.
>doubt.jpg
Many reviewers felt it did refute race science, were they all mistaken? Why do you think they thought it did, and what are your counter arguments?

>>14479037
I know africa is a continent (thats why i calrified the difference in region) and I have read DP- care to cite anything it says or just trying to sound smart?

the point is that Africa wouldn't be a continent, or even countries or any of that shit without designation by colonial invaders. this is not a moral good or ill, have your own opinion on it if you like, you still haven't said antyhing that makes African laws or legal practices seem inherently civil

>>14479037
>argumentum ad novitatem
lol, nice try
it's not- it's an appeal to the fact that many regions have historical poetry and abandon them after developing historical prose. take the transition from homer to herodotus to thucydides- there is articulated develpoment/progression happening that isn't in other societies

>>14479054
No one's asking you, but please stop having a debate with yourself, its intellectual masturbation. At least do it in private.

>>14479008
Boring, try talking about the history of Germany or Italy and you'll run into the same problems/shorthand.
>This is literally a description of "pre-civilizational oases surrounded by hunter gatherers" as I said. It's similar to saying that prior to the Bronze Age that pre-Germanic tribes had civilization (which they didn't) because they had tribal legal codes and aural histories.
It's nowhere near, and I mentioned they had written out the judgements specifically, it wasn't /isn't an oral tradition.

>>14479074
>and I have read DP
No you haven't or you'd know what I'm talking about

>>14479065
>has mostly been used by warlords to abuse populations,
the inherent problems with global charity are not at all the issue- further, why is there no responsibility placed on the warlords misusing the funds? why doesn't this play back into the brokenness of the african systems as much as it plays to the naivety of charitable westerners?
you're bias is showing, and your eveidence isn't even clear. go read Dancing inthe Glory of Monsters and you can read about how a UN peace opeartion in Rwanda was taken over by local warlords to the chagrin of the charitable white yuppies who got them their funds.
except, I fell like we're not talking about different things anymore, you're just refusing to give the same amount of blame to rural africans as you are to westeners because 'muh third world morality' or some shit

>>14479064
Do you have a substitute for this set of convergent observable phenomena besides some vague spook like "racism" or "stress"? If so, there's a whole field of intelligence researchers, Evolutionary Psychologists and Molecular biologists who would like to know so they can stop wasting their time and research efforts.
>>14479065
You're seriously trying to argue that oral history is superior to written records? That's your argument? You should try that one with professional historians and non post-structural archaeologists. It would be good for a laugh.

>>14479085
>it's an appeal to the fact that many regions have historical poetry and abandon them after developing historical prose.
Oh, so you're like just stringing words together and have no idea what you're saying? That's cool.

>>14479101
yes I have, and the orblem is youre not talking about anything, you're just trying to deflect

like literally, reference a point and we can discuss it, I'm totally game

>>14479113
>this patheic cop out
can't be any more clear than to literally name three works in succession to make my point lol; you lose dipshit

>>14479088
>Boring, try talking about the history of Germany or Italy and you'll run into the same problems/shorthand.
But their development didn't stop there lmao

>>14479108
>further, why is there no responsibility placed on the warlords misusing the funds?
Of course there is, but that's a bit like giving a hitman money for a job and expecting them to be the only ones morally culpable for a murder. Funding's bad and fundees are bad.

>>14478910
tell em deshawn. if not for no whitey we wud be lookin like wakanduh shieeeeeeet

>>14479113
wait, what doesn't make sense about that?
are you saying the greeks came out with an 'odyssey 2' after the peloponessian war?
does anyone on /lit/ actually know anything, or are we just playing pretend?

>>14479127
someone who pays for a murder is morally culpable because they PAID FOR A MURDER
If i give someone ten bucks to give to an african and need but it instead gets stolen by a warlord how the fuck is it my fault beyond just being naive and ultimately powerless to affect change?

>>14479088
I'm genuinely curious, have you ever actually read anything that would challenge your beliefs before? Your head seems about 14 feet up your own ass.

>>14479032

i'll read it later, as of now i'm still of the opinion that the average baseline iq of '100' only measures an ability to read the test itself, and the level of domestication. intelligence is not measured with an iq test

>>14479052

i'm not going to go through you line by line again since you didn't really say anything, but the dishonesty here is that western africa in particular was a civilizationless disaster where everyone was constantly dying with zero stability, and everyone was unhappy and miserable. the only point i'm trying to make here is that they're liars. all of the idiots here that dare to criticize me for speaking the truth or proclaiming "white guilt" are really just appealing to their own savior complex

>>14476279
This is how some on the left actually see themselves as they’re foaming at the mouth and pointing the finger of blame at anyone that steps outside of the established narrative

>>14479070
Millions of flies can't be wrong, eh? Honestly I don't give a damn about what the reviewers thought. They know as much about the science as the author does, she's only a journalist as well.

I'm not closed minded on this topic, if you have another book that refutes race realism I would be happy if you recommended it.

>>14479116
I really don't see how you didn't get from the comment that it's a reference to old forms of punishment in Europe including the description of being hung, drawn and quartered in the first few pages.

You haven't read it if you didn't get the really basic reference, you're just a willy waver.

>>14479140
>If i give someone ten bucks to give to an african and need but it instead gets stolen by a warlord how the fuck is it my fault beyond just being naive and ultimately powerless to affect change?
If it happened once, but these aid things have been going on for decades don't you know.

>>14479142
lol no one ever asked you to go line by line, just reference a fucking point in a fucking book full of them you sad brainless ape, kys

>>14479132
>are you saying the greeks came out with an 'odyssey 2' after the peloponessian war?
The Romans definitely did. The Greeks didn't abandon poetry for prose with the advent of writing, and oral poetry continued in some parts of Europe even until now actually.

>>14479159
I know, but most normies don't

I'm not trying to absolve them, just recognizing the white guilt present as a motivator

>>14479141
I feel like this post is in some way projection. I challenge my beliefs everyday and I am beholden to nothing, but I don't abide people spewing bullshit.

>>14479170
Romans did it out of love of the greeks having-done-so in the past
and we were talking about oral history poetry, not poetry en toto, nice try tho

You should come to he States before making claims like this. People treat their heritage as a special part of themselves and express it through their behavior.

>>14479151
but no one is making a moral comparison between these punihsments in europe and africa in comparison- simply acjonowledging that them happening anywhere is bad. get it now?

>>14479150
Why do you think they drew different conclusions from you though? It was reviewed in some scientific publications, what did they get wrong that you got right?

>>14479174
There's lots of levels to it for sure. I was going to be cynical and suggest that certain powerful people might want certain corrupt bastards in power, but that is sometimes not the case either and it's plain old shittiness. What you end up with though are normal people in developed nations being taken advantage of to take advantage of normal people in developing nations.

The current IQ test is imperfect, but it’s still a pretty good measure. I just think it’s way more nurture than nature.

I hung out with a lot of lower class people throughout my life and there was this vibe of ‘I’m not smart enough for that’ when introduced to intellectual ideas.
This started at childhood when their parents / friends / the media they consumed never introduced them to abstract ideas. When confronted with something they didn’t understand, they didn’t say ‘I’m going to figure this out’, they drew a blank and moved on to something more comfortable.
Having the confidence to sit and figure something out is the largest factor in intelligence, and it has a compounding effect.

Lower class whites likely consumed more intellectual movies and spoke with a better vocab than lower class blacks, even if they didn’t experience much intellectual thought in the real world. That has a compounding effect and imo is why they ultimately do better on an IQ test

>>14479191
>simply acjonowledging that them happening anywhere is bad. get it now?
No. That wasn't the point:
>>14478968
>did you read any of those laws and written records? there was a form of contract mentioned in king leopolds ghost (granted this is in the congo now) where two nobles would seal an agreement by beating a slave to death publicly
>>14478934
>Sub-Saharan Africa prior to colonization was literally just feral tribals killing each other in the wild with sporadic oases of basic agriculture/trade and pre-civilizational cultural development.
The argument is: Africa didn't have civilization because something we consider immoral happened on the continent.
Counter argument: Things that are even more immoral happened on every continent, including those like Europe.

At this stage you must admit that either European civilization is a misnomer or that there may have been civilization in Africa in precolonial times.

>>14479108

i could see you thinking this way if you think the warlords just spring up like dandelions. i could also see you thinking this way if you just willingly ignore all of the cia backed coups designed to promote instability in the first place

>you're just refusing to give the same amount of blame to rural africans as you are to westeners

if the westerners are the "adults" and the africans are the "children", then you have to operate this way

>>14479110

not necessarily superior, but the oral tradition certainly preserves meaning and updates itself over time better than the written word. even in the same language, historians are liable to make terrible translations by using direct and literal translations. if they laugh at me for acknowledging that, then they're stupider than they think

>>14479131

we wuz utopias

>>14479168

sorry for hurting your feelings, but you can recommend yourself books on your own

>>14479018
Joyce is not an exemplar of Irish any more than Fanon could be considered an exemplar of any of his countries. Fanon is following in a similar Marixst tradition to Joyce's, and they have more in common through that than they do to either of their traditions. Their separations from their nations of their chosen nationalism alone would unite them more than the cultures of those nations would be reflected in them.
>speaks Igbo
Kek. You're going with a Jewish influenced language ITT? Alright.

>>14479183
>and we were talking about oral history poetry
Yeah, so you might want to actually learn about that are of interest INCLUDING ABOUT THE YUGOSLAV EPIC POEMS THAT I KEEP MENTIONING THAT ARE STILL RECITED TODAY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral-formulaic_composition

Fucking not even a midwit, jesus. Hell, why do you fucking THINK Homer and the Talmud were still written in poetic form and not transcribed into fucking prose?

>>14479192
>Why do you think they drew different conclusions from you though?
Knowledge of Biology, rather than taking Saini's book at face value I suppose

>On page 183, Saini says: "But to date, no scientific research has been able to show any average genetic differences between population groups that go further than the superficial and are linked to hard survival, such as skin colour and those that prevent a geographically linked disease."
and a study that disproves this
nature com/articles/
s41467-
018-04191-y

If you could post those reviews from scientific publications I'd like to read them

>>14479244
>Fanon is following in a similar Marixst tradition to Joyce's
Do you mind if I nominate this for this year's Single Most Side-Splittingly Dumb Attempt to Say Something That Sounds Intelligent Made on 4chan Ever?
I mean seriously, kid, which one of your three-quarters-illiterate Marxist kike professors told you that Joyce was in a "Marxist tradition"?

>>14479271
>kid
Pssht, way to teleport behind them *tips fedora*

>>14478838
>the arguments were bad
>the arguments contradicted themselves
May you give an example?

>>14479278
I actually literally am 60 years old.
And I'm at least praying to sweet Jesus that whoever wrote that Joyce was "in a Marxist tradition" is under 18 because if he isn't he really needs to end himself.

>>14479287
I can see how that confusion could come about so I'd personally have just ignored it.

/leftypol/ flooding in here after it closed has been a disaster for /lit/. The prose is profoundly homosexual and and the basic assumptions about reality are absurd.

>>14479297

>calling shitposts prose

i think there might be some denial of your own faggotry, my friend

>>14479297
Stop with your idiotic cliquism and have a fucking discussion. Oh it's this bogeyman, oh it's that bogeyman, engage with the fucking debate you stupid prick or fuck off.

>>14479238
Written history certainly does suffer from the problems of language evolving in response to environmental/cultural/genetic changes in the people interpreting it. You're correct on that matter. The argument that this is not significantly the case with oral history, and potentially even more the case with oral history is one that needs a pretty significant degree of evidence to support given just how much of what's called oral history is of little value beyond mythological/spiritual purposes.

Actual answer: the Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould

>>14479312
>just how much of what's called oral history is of little value beyond mythological/spiritual purposes.
If you're interested in it, do a degree in it or something. You are lacking really basic knowledge of this area though, just google archaeology and Iliad and become amazed.

>>14479312

>of little value beyond mythological/spiritual purposes

so the stories that teach the people of that society how to act, behave, how their language works, their personal philosophies, and where they believe they come from are of little value? i'm not going to call you a bugman since i think you're better than that (in comparison to the rest of the clowns in this thread), but holy shit that is a terrible take

>>14479271
So Arthur Griffith, the founder of Sinn Fein, [the militant party which supported the black panthers, the Algerians, and the Libyans, who split from the Marxists at the second internationale along with the signatories of the 1916 declaration of independence because they felt the Leninist and Trotskyist Marxists were not going to support armed insurrection against the British Empire], who made Joyce his protege and published his early political works in his newspaper and who features in Joyce's work as several different characters was secretly nothing to do with Marxist thought at all and never took over from James Connolly. Yeah, sure, and James Connolly was an antiMarxist who could stand unassisted for his execution.
To be a nationalist uninfluenced by Marxism in Dublin at the time was nearly fucking impossible. In Ulysses, part of the key to Stephen's world view is that he plays with Marx's idea of the nightmare of history from the XVIIIme Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte. You cannot be this dumb. The phrase is famous in the same way "first as tragedy then as farce" is from the same work. Joyce was not as illiterate as you and he knew who he was quoting. He unironically made Stephen Jewish to attack Griffith on one of his major points of disagreement with Connolly.

>>14479309
>have a fucking discussion
>DEBATE ME!!
No. You won't be taken seriously and I will continue to gatekeep until you go back to where you belong. I'm not interested in /lit/ becoming a cesspool of unironic marxists and /pol/tards shouting anathemas at each other and flooding the board with sissyfag "rate my poetry i'll never be a published author" threads again like how shitty /lit/ was before you all migrated.

>>14479330
During my undergrad I did two electives in the archaeology Dept at my school (one being physical anthropology). There's definitely a lot more going on historically in coastal SSA than people generally assume, but to claim this as equivalent to the level of development of even pre-Cortez South Amerindians is pretty insulting to everyone involved. I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm going to assume you're not either and that you're asserting bullshit you picked up doing some other politically motivated academic work.

>>14478636
Jeez good thing this is an anonymous website because good damn this is an embarrassing take

>>14479380
>During my undergrad I did two electives in the archaeology Dept at my school
That's like half a semester isn't it?

>>14479370
>James Connolly was an antiMarxist who could stand unassisted for his execution.
Connolly's death makes me sad. I can't think of a phrase that makes me well up more than how everyone discusses it
>they had to strap him to a chair to shoot him

>>14478698
>Discussing vast and homogenous areas/histories/cultures in the abstract
True dumb shit

>>14478745
I have genuinely never heard anyone except big dumb dumbs use 'common sense' to mean anything beyond knowing not to walk near cliff edges

It's a lazy cope for people who can't or don't want to investigate their prejudices, in the widest sense of the word

>>14479431
Agatha Christie used it when explaining that a real murderer would not send death threats because why warn them. I don't know where that lands in your prejudice, but it came to mind. Not the anon you're talking to btw

>>14479431
Common sense is worthless when discussing anything since the world fundamentally works differently then what common sense would suggest.
This is why empiricism and bayesian statistics are important and why all English majors here can go and fuck themselves why interjecting themselves into discussions here.

>>14479451
Agatha Christie used it when explaining that a real murderer would not send death threats because why warn them

Woman sure are stupid, only thinking the the most basic of planes.

>>14479395
One four credit class on non-western archaeology and one four credit on physical/forensic anthropology over two consecutive semesters. I did a systems engineering major so it was basically just an interesting set of electives, not something I pretend to be an expert in.

>>14479343
Mythological stories are of huge importance, I'm just saying that as far as any sort of "objective" history goes they aren't really particularly helpful in the majority of cases. There are exceptions like all the work that Barry Strauss and Eric Cline have done using the myths surrounding bronze age collapse and historical investigation, but it took modern practices of Western (well Israeli but whatever) researchers to get value beyond internal moralization/mythological structure out of these stories.

>>14479477
Lol nigger, read about that time she faked her death to frame her husband and assumed the name of his mistress. Conan Doyle was running around hiring psychics to find her at the time, you don't want to make a gender battle over her.

>>14479431
>>14479462
>Common sense is worthless when discussing anything since the world fundamentally works differently then what common sense would suggest.
You had me for a minute there but this is too much

>>14477736
>As an alleged victim of racism I will now begin the prosecution trial and judgement of alleged racists.

Why is the presumption of innocence not afforded here? Why is the clear bias a virtue and not prone to petty vindictive defamation? It will be exciting to watch every sacred European object made profane by the fifth column that pollutes it's institutions. Hope China is watching and taking notes.

>>14479493
So you see the world as probability amplitudes and energy fluctuations?

>>14476690
Checkmate, bigot!

>>14479223
It wouldn't be the fact that they descend from a line of self sufficient farmers and shepherds who learned the value of planning, delayed gratification and trial and error- where steady eugenic pressure weeded out the bad ones for millenia. And the blacks are just captured spoils from mixes tribes disconnected completely from their history and selectively bred in the Americas for size and obedience to the point their civil rights revolution had to be directed by Jews lest they fuck it up.

>>14476279
my diary desu

>>14476470
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8eUTg3mcPtA

>>14476279
>>14476412
>>14476470
*Sigh*

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/14/9/1679.full

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982205002095

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369848613000460

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/298/5602/2381.full

http://www.nature.com/index.html?file=/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1455.html

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/9/4516.full
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v526/n7571/full/nature15393.html

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tan.12165/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2271140/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707610015
>According to wiki, Fst between Europeans (CEU) and sub-Saharan Africans (YRI) is 0.153.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_index#Autosomal_genetic_distances_based_on_SNPs

>According to this study, Fst between North American wolves and coyotes is � wait for it.. 0.153.

https://www.fws.gov/southeast/pdf/publication/red-wolf-genetics-research-von-holdt.pdf

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2018/06/24/fixation-index/

>>14478147
Racial categories in the US at least are obviously at least partially sociocultural constructs. "Latino" for example as a race is completely made up. Middle easterners are also considered to be their own race despite the fact that many of them pretty much look the same as Spaniards or Italians.

Look at Iran for example, despite the fact that they were literally the original Aryans and in the past were considered a master race who could even get honorary citizenship in Nazi Germany, now because they have an Islamofascist government they're considered to be brain-dead 3rd world savages and "race realists" will come up with endless arguments for why they're genetically inferior and should just be nuked. Even leftists will do the whole "no one cares about bombs when it's brown people" thing. According to the official racial categories in the census (ie determined by some sort of scientific consensus not just culture) they are considered white

>>14481352
Race realists are pro war? They are opposed to Iran? Oy vey when will this antisemitism end, and from the left no less, cut the Democrats another check bubby or there's gonna be anudda shoah.

>>14481109
The first fact there is someone not understanding PCA. PCA is just a way to (hopefully) identify variance in data, it's nothing to do with identifying different racial groups de novo.

First paper there is a criticism of inferring race from genetics
>Our results show that when individuals are sampled homogeneously from around the globe, the pattern seen is one of gradients of allele frequencies that extend over the entire world, rather than discrete clusters. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that major genetic discontinuities exist between different continents or “races.”
This is in the fucking abstract.

So *sigh* from everyone else because you mindlessly copy pasted stuff you did not understand in the slightest and did not even bother to read. You are a moron.

>>14481381
>when will this antisemitism
The guy was very clear, there are people (clearly you) who are in fact anti-aryan by race because some aryans have adopted a politics/religion you disagree with.

>>14479551
>It wouldn't be the fact that they descend from a line of self sufficient farmers and shepherds who learned the value of planning, delayed gratification and trial and error
It would not and you really need to learn your history.

>>14476412
>he needs to be spoonfed conclusions which even the dumbest of dumbasses would come to with even the babbiest ability to extrapolate from a single dataset

>>14481352
>first-cousin inbreeding to the point of blood scarcity, mass drops in IQ and extremely common occurence genetic defects
And you're doing that oh so epic bit where you pretend the word 'Aryan' means what it meant hundreds of years ago to obfuscate the issue instead of simply having a good-faith conversation using the broadly understood modern definition

>>14481109
Bro sorry Tyrone took your girl. But you need help

>>14481398
You should really read all of the information on that page.

>>14481452
>le sexual demoralization meme instead of actually reading through the contents of the links
OK mutt

>>14481460
I read the social construct one and saw it was retarded so I didn't bother with the rest

>>14481398
Isn't this the lewtonian fallacy? I've heard that it doesn't matter if race is like a gradient as opposed to clusters since so do colours appear as a gradient but we don't say that colour doesn't exist. Perhaps there are transitionary statues where we don't know where red begins and orange ends but that doesn't mean we don't know what it is.

>>14481458
It's clearly not well collated/put together, I had a look at the second paper cited and it said about the same damn thing. It's a potemkin refutation, a fucking barn facade of citations, knock it off.

>>14478865
Based

>>14481426
>strawmans the former while giving a burning match to the latter

Just learn your history goy. It's natural sin dontcha know? Just kill yourself lol. Maybe when you sit inside the camps in the 2050s and wonder wtf happened you will remember small moments like this where you had a chance to take your own advice but decided to give it out instead of taking it. If you truly believe that civilized people are actually civilized and not on the border of mass hysterical violence and your nonsense pet ideology is pushing them closer and closer to the brink... The impending orgy of violence by the fortnite zoomers when they reach adulthood will make the 20th century look peaceful.

>>14476850
way easier to do this than to refute the argument, especially in short for communications on the internet
same reason why 'basedjack' is so popular

>>14481463
>I [didn't read] the social construct one and [can't fucking read] so I didn't bother [reading] the rest
OK mutt

>>14481426
>ackshyually goy farmers don’t exist
tell me more, moshe

>>14481464
It's not race that's the gradient, its genetic variations.
>since so do colours appear as a gradient but we don't say that colour doesn't exist.
It's like talking to an old person "this unrelated thing is like that unrelated thing", no it isn't you've just constructed a grammatically similar sentence.
>Perhaps there are transitionary statues where we don't know where red begins and orange ends but that doesn't mean we don't know what it is.
So the best "explanation" I can give you that is close to being relevant in some way is thus: just because you can see in black and white (contrast) does not mean you derive colour (hue), different things.

>>14481494
genes control phenotype expressions. do you just hate taxonomy?

>>14481489
>>14481478
I have no idea why you are obsessed with this WE WUZ FARMERZ stuff. You probs descended from peasants.

>>14481483
Cringe

>>14481494
Nazis also used roads and planes. Races are not real for whites but they are for blacks and browns and you're suspicious about asians because they're rich which is how supremacy begins. We get it.

>>14481506
Read the intro to I think it's the blind watchmaker, Dawkins gives a decent explanation of the relationship between genes and phenotype. Don't obsess over taxonomy.

Here's a question to blow your mind, do you have more or fewer genes than an E coli?

>>14481510
Cope

>>14481513
Stop giving me canned responses, you write like a telemarketer. Either engage with the arguments and the sources, or accept you're a trog and scurry off to your cave.

>>14479047
comedy is a visceral expression and the mainstream western left has this weird ideological opposition to irony/humor
so called right wing memes don't have to be outright agitprop to be considered right wing political memes by these people whereas left wing memes need to be carefully constructed and workshopped in order to convey an on-brand message without breaking too many intersectional rules which kind of ruins the purpose of a fucking joke
also a lot of these anti-memes are reactionary and come from a wounded place in whoever makes them which only conveys resentment and detracts from whatever humor might be there

>>14481507
Because over 20k years the genetic pressure on farmers and shepherds is so different than the one on hunter gatherers that they form completely separate and incompatible clusters which always go to war over resources. Descent from peasant as opposed to what descent from stone age basket weavers? You're the unironic racist buddy because you tolerate no difference given your totality of inclination divorced from the world you live in. Everyone lives together because you've replaced the hate of others with the hate of other ideas. We just need to infect everyone's brain equally to yours.

>>14481558
>You're the unironic racist buddy because you tolerate no difference
This is a decades old joke m90
https://youtu.be/mwEi5Dpq6zs

>>14481352
I don't think you've ever actually talked to a race realist besides the cartoon character in your head. I've been running in "professional internet racist" circles for longer than I'd like to admit and pretty much nobody is an exterkonationist in the way you imply. You know who wants to turn the middle east into a sheet of glass, Pro-Zionist neocons and MAGA people, not HBD supporters. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find Nicholas Wade or Jared Taylor talking about "Bomb Iran" in the same way that Liberal Boomers did on a regular basis and almost all "Internet Nazis" are anti-war.

>>14481635
Keep going.

>>14481525
>races don't exist because you could have an arbitrary amount
>blacks are an oppressed racial group we must help due to historical sin
>stop asking questions what are you racist?
>what do you live in a cave?? Are you gonna make some cave paintings faggot? Are you going to use contrast and shadow to build a world mythology that will lift you out of base subsistence and create some kind of artificial cave?
> building an empire which eventually can get us to this position where I can use asymmetry to shit on you from inside the hyperstructure you created because you banned direct violence and slavery my preferred mechanism for removing problems
>what you don't like other peoples empires even though yours doesn't actually exist and no I wont stop doing this where I cherrypick everything
>it's called multiculturalism bigot you need it because we destroyed your culture already

With sullen approbation barely registering the smug simpleton continues to tear down that which protects him from the coming storm. But isn't the fire ever so pretty he mumbles staring into destruction itself. I forgive you.

>>14481525
>>14481690
Disregard this I suck cocks.
PS I am wanking while I write this

>>14481690
>>14481699
>I suck cocks.
>I am wanking while I write this
It shows dude. Wtf?

>>14481520
more bullshit semantics.

>>14481796
Hey, if the words are too complicated for you don't use them.

>>14481520
what's the relevance of e coli?

>>14481816
It's worded wrong (sort of), but prokaryotes have higher gene density by a long way than eukaryotes.

>>14481824
So? That has no bearing on the conversation.

>>14481827
Genes control phenotype expression,
>>14481506
but do they?
We have a genome roughly 1000x bigger than E coli but only 5x as many genes. A lot of our phenotypic expression is due to non-gene regulation.

>>14481850
>Genes control phenotype expression,
That they do are you saying all single celled organisms are the same shape?

>>14481857
Don't get confused, not all single celled organisms are prokaryotes.

Eukaryote phenotypes have a lot to do with things that are not genes.

>>14481875
Phenotype is an expression of genes under environmental pressures, please explain what phenotypicial features aren't a result of that process through growth and evolution?

>>14481892
Heed the advice here >>14481520

>>14481892
>>14481875
Also the extended phenotype. Also Dawkins.

>>14481913
So how has that invalidated classification laymen or otherwise? No one has answered this adequately.

>>14481941
>So how has that invalidated classification
Again, don't worry about taxonomy, but have you considered that maybe genes or genetics are not all that important?

>>14481967
You keep telling me to not worry about it, is that the basis of Dawkins thesis in the extended phenotype?

>>14481984
It's just not important or relevant.

>>14481967
As for importance we just don't know.
>>14481995
Why?

>>14481109
Oy Vey - everyone is equal apart from Whites who are evil and Jews who are superior.

>>14481635
First of all not all race realists in my experience are fascists/nationalists, there are plenty of Americon boomer libertarian race realists online

Second of all maybe nuking Iran was a bad example but they have the attitude that places like the Middle East will never not be shitholes and opposed to the West due to genetic differences and therefore attempts to help them or get along with them are doomed, that was more what I was trying to reference

>>14476279
There aren't any

What's about this very weird phenomena where paper given by race-realists to refute other one has some of direct refutation in its Abstract?

to >>14481109, the first link he given is http://genome.cshlp.org/content/14/9/1679.full
the Abstract says:
>Therefore, there is no reason to assume that major genetic discontinuities exist between different continents or “races.”
Who think this as a great idea? I don't want to go full read on it, I can't be more knowledgeable on paper than the guy who wrote that damn paper.

Another example is this. I saw this case in a channel called The Alternative Hypothesis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5muVMrLiso
He starts his video with the one paper. it's around 3:00.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/22268195
This is the paper and the Abstract says:
>Therefore, there is no reason to assume that major genetic discontinuities exist between different continents or “races.”

>>14482513
"major" isn't defined and likely isn't what the "race-realist" is referring to as the substance of the paper.

>>14477736
>Saini, Angela (2011). Geek Nation: How Indian Science is Taking Over the World. Hodder Paperbacks. ISBN 1444710168.
Saini, Angela (2018). Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong - and the New Research That’s Rewriting the Story. 4th Estate. ISBN 000817203X.
Saini, Angela (2019). Superior: The Return of Race Science. Beacon Press. ISBN 0008341001.
Heh

>>14478707
All concepts are social constructs.

>>14478710
Not arbitrary.

>>14476279
Why would you want to think you could ever be retarded enough to bring your own family to be butchered by a nigger witchdoctor practicing cargo cult medicine? Be proud that you’re part of a civilized race that can treat people decently, ffs.

>>14481452
>get's completely BTFO
>falls back on tired cuck memes

>>14482634
Language isn't arbitrary? The sounds we happen to assign certain meanings are predestined or following some kind of natural logic? That's crazy bro tell me more

>>14482815
>The sounds we happen to assign certain meanings are predestined
Not necessary for it to be predestined to not be arbitrary.

>or following some kind of natural logic?
Sure.

>>14482433
I don't know who you're talking to, but generally that's not the impression that I've gotten from reading race realist works. The closest I've seen is arguing that the middle east will continue to developmentally stagnate until a different cultural hegemon replaces Saudi Arabia/Israel. The more common argument is that any "foreign aid" or interference that the west imposes on these people will be met with hostility as it will ultimately require a projection of Western force in order to accomplish "modernization" of the middle east.
There are certainly some intellectual differences between ME and North African populations on average than Europeans, but Babylon and the Indus valley were central to cultural/technological/economic development for thousands of years before the relative "dark age" that modern Wahabi Islam under Saudi leadership has imposed upon the region. Much of this Wahabism is both a result of the West reducing the ability of effective local leaders to operate, and a reaction to the cultural challenges that American post-modern progressive liberalism poses to their cultural coherency. Race Realists acknowledge these differences and wish to be allies and separate but mutually respectful geopolitical partners rather than seeking to integrate people who view the west as hostile cultural imperialists into a system which they feel is alienating and foreign.

I think you're mistaking "race realists" for Zionist neo-conservatives here. Nothing about race differences being a necessary consideration for social/political planning necessitates that areas like the ME or even Sub-Saharan Africa will always be "shitholes" but rather that imposition of Western modes of cultural organization will likely not work well with the non-western population groups which inhabit those areas.

>>14476279
/wSzFjSU

>>14482603
so she's an indian fascist misogynist who also hates white people. yo people in the future are going to call the 20th and 21st century dark ages.

>>14481967
>have you considered that maybe genes or genetics are not all that important?
you’d have to have pretty severe brain damage to “consider” this for more than a few minutes

>>14476279
difference between groups cannot be 'debunked', it is an absurd premise.
I recommend reading this article by Harvard's David Reich in the nytimes, "how genetics is changing our understanding of race":
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-race.html
or read his 2018 book on the subject.
concepts of 'black' and 'white' are obviously incoherent. and IQ tests are only a rough proxy for 'intelligence', something that cannot be defined.
but if you just outright think that genetic ancestries cannot be grouped meaningfully, or that these groups create people identical apart from skin colour, you are a maroon.
there is nothing emancipatory about paternalistic coddling of non-whites, god know why you would bother anonymously.

>>14483606
the goal of the world revolutionary movement wasn't emancipation it was a cry to destroy modernism and return man to a simple agrarian state. once their ideology got absorbed into technocratic society, they lost ussr and china it was over. the only goal now is to start a nuclear war before machines take control of global weapon systems and ensure total war is completely impossible. their final hope is africa overwhelming the rest of the world somehow and stopping all scientific work by gumming up the academy. but megacorps like alphabet, zuckbook and riverboat baron's emporium are just doing their own research privately so it's inevitable that the next 80 years are the peaceful and voluntary enslavement of mankind. it turns out if you hire a bunch of sjw's at google, google just splits off into functioning pieces via mitosis and mutation, divests itself from your institutional rot and continues ticking on with automation.

>>14483669
The contrast between the neo-liberal order grossly incompetent administrators and fully realized engineers is something to marvel at.

>>14482590
Yet it is the substance of the paper, the whole point was to criticise the idea of genetics showing distinct groupings that are in any way cognates or proxies to race.

>>14483536
They aren't though, you think this is moronic because you lack subject knowledge. Eukaryotes can have minor changes in genetic code causing massive changes in phenotype and vice versa because eukaryote gene expression is based around a complicated system of gene control and regulation.

>>14483606
>I recommend reading this article by Harvard's David Reich in the nytimes, "how genetics is changing our understanding of race":
"It is true that race is a social construct. It is also true, as Dr. Lewontin wrote, that human populations “are remarkably similar to each other” from a genetic point of view."
Really supports your race-realist view, huh? You see something that looks like it might slightly agree with you, and you go into some weird fantasy where it does. Then you chimp out about it every fucking where.

>>14484484
if a scientist told you to eat your own shit would you?

races are real because we want them to be.

That's all well and good but are there any books that debunk cats. I have a cat in the attic and I'd rather not.
Bonus points if it was written by someone from a major US university.

>>14484489
>races are real because we want them to be.
More or less. There just isn't a genetic basis for it, you're always imposing this racial framework taken from social forces/society onto the genetic data.
>if a scientist told you to eat your own shit would you?
Look up fecal transplants.

>>14484491
>I have a cat in the attic and I'd rather not.
Just take it out the attic dude, are you scared of a fucking pussy or something?

>>14484502
I don't need to take my cat down from the attic, you fucking faggot. stop talking to me and taking my time I'm busy...

>>14484514
Check out this pussyphobe calling someone else a faggot.

>>14476279
I find the clown pretty cute desu

>>14484526
where do you want to meet? I'll take the cat with me, you cretinous pesticide

>>14484539
In your mother's vagina.

>>14484535
He is tsundere.

>>14484502
That sounds complicated. I'd prefer the book please.

>this thread still hasn't been deleted

>>14484558
It's only a couple of posts from the bump limit.

>>14484556
Just move house. EZPZ.

bumpu

>>14484569
Like move somewhere that cats aren't allowed? Isn't that illegal?

>>14484577
Just sell the cat and the house to someone else and move house. Again, EZPZ.

>>14484590
Obviously I can't sell the cat but I could probably convince the new owner that cats provide much needed biodiversity to an attic location.
Now I just need a book about attic biodiversity.

yeah, in comic related """scientists""" laugh at alleged proof of race realism forgetting completely that a chapter on eugenics and racial differences was a part of every biology textbook some 120 years ago. the fact they don't know that is telling of modern academia which has substantially lowered standards of entry and education even for PhD programmes, scientists who don't even know the history of their own science are like Einstein said "mere artisans" and are therefore susceptible to be influenced by whatever winds are blowing outside of their area of speciality - in this case it is liberalism and egalitarianism that has trespassed into the natural sciences

>>14484499
>He literally would eat his own shit if a scientist told him to and in fact had a rhetorical framework in which doing so is okay prepared in advance
>There are gradients thus colors aren't real

>>14484645
>>There are gradients thus colors aren't real
>I can see in black and white therefore I can derive colours
Also try eating ass.

>>14484625
>a chapter on eugenics and racial differences was a part of every biology textbook some 120 years ago
Oh as recent as that?

>>14484733
that means racial differences and eugenics used to be established knowledge and scientific fact in those days but ceased to be because it didn't appeal the Negroes, same reason why they removed homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses

>>14478514

>You do realize that the definition of race is completely arbitrary right?

We're not changing the definition of race to suit your argument sorry, unless you want to propose a new better word for the subdivision of phenotypes

Threads like this remind me why leftists usually refuse to even talk to people on the right. Their religious doctrines can't be defended.

>>14476279
can't debunk the truth

>>14478514
>>14476643
>>14476433
see
>>14481051

>>14481051
That autistic homo is a treasure