/lit/ - Literature

>>14475114
Marx

First you need to understand Hegel to btfo his autism.

>>14475114
marx

>>14475114
Guénon

>>14475127
>>14475119
Lmao Marx didn't btfw Hegel. Marxism is a religious ideology in itself. It is a bastardization of Hegel, which believes that there will be a "judgement day" of sorts, for the capitalist class. It projects a reductive materialism onto the world, and tries to predict what will happen in the future, as opposed to Hegel who said he cannot predict science, and consciousness develops through history. Marx was actually projecting his post-hoc myth of progress onto the world, believing that what is beautiful is not something inside the self. His blatant atheism is only an excuse to bastardize Hegelianism, and bring about a new judgement day of his own.

He is like an antichrist, of sorts, believing that on the day of judgement all who are chosen will live, and all the class traitors will perish. I've scarcely met orthodox Marxists, who are not secular humanists with a strong idealist leaning such as myself, who did not wish death upon the people who oppress them. Fortunately, practical no one is an orthodox Marxist, and people just adopt the parts of the theories they like, because that's what all religious ideologies do. But Marxist thinking is idealism shadowing itself in rationalism, and hypocritically condemning "mystical thinking", while imposing a post-hoc projection of belief onto the world about "progress".

>>14475114
Russell thought he did but really they were just talking past each other, and thats the thing with Hegel, he really can't be "refuted" because he establishes his starting terms such that by even engaging with him you've already agreed to play his game in a way.

Kierkegaard came as close as anyone can to refuting Hegel but even he recognized the genius hiding within, albeit misapplied genius.

>>14475138
Based & Redpilled

>>14475161
>secular humanists with a strong idealist leaning such as myself
>Based & Redpilled

>>14475114
>btfo
Don’t bother with philosophy, it isn’t for you

>Implying you can btfo Hegel

>>14475156

There’s something to be said for arguments that by mere engagement of their language are necessarily irrefutable. Is there a word / term for that?

>>14475287
>implying Guénon doesn't do precisely that in every one of his writings

>>14475114
This Chad philosopher.

No one BTFO based Descartes, Hegel is a charlatan that got bodied by schopenhauer and kierkegaard

>>14475138
>secular humanists with a strong idealist leaning
One of the few genuinely tolerable ideologies. Don't let it make you arrogant

>>14475156
>by even engaging with him you've already agreed to play his game in a way.
Sounds like meaningless reddit-tier drivel one would find in "Gödel, Escher, Bach".

>>14475297
>No one BTFO based Descartes

>>14475130
>>14475290
Don't hold your breath for anyone to say how

>>14475114
What should I read to understand what you mean. I am too uninformed to follow.

>>14475299
If I have to explain to you the difference between what I'm saying and that other shit, its not worth it. This is not a novel idea regarding Hegel, which is why Russell finally just decided to ignore everything he was saying and start from scratch, rather than even arguing.

>>14475320
Just read his writings and you should start grasping it. Trying to put his retroactive refutation of Hegel into 4channel words is deeply disrespectful.

>>14475337
>like ugh, do I actually have to explain myself
Based hegelian

>>14475114
>But who btfo Hegel?
Anyone who kills them self

>>14475328
Descartes, Hume, Kant, Hegel, Land

>>14475328
Land <-> Guénon. This deeper symbol means "read both at the same time and try finding connections between their thought".

>>14475339
This.
The perennial tradition cannot be explained in a 4chan post.

>>14475156
this is a cop out offered up by people who notice something wrong about hegel but have nothing to respond with. which is seemingly most hegel critics. it's very easy to say you're against him, he's 'abstract' or whatever, he confuses opposition and contradiction...you can't presume that even engaging with him in any way automatically activates and verifies his system, as if it really were self-grounding or presuppositionless. that's just agreeing with hegel but not liking it.

>every thread is either about guenon or guenonfag turns it into one
Will he ever stop bros? It's all so tiresome.

>>14475378
>Will he ever stop bros?
When we collapse into the limit-point of the Kali Yuga, as detailed by Réné Guénon and his student Nick Land.

i bet i could btfo hegel. someone just give me a quick rundown on what he said and i'll do it.

>>14475517
First you need to read this anon
>>14475349

>>14475517
g-guenon? is that you?

>>14475517
He uses the Platonic dialectic to essentially argue for a more sexually liberated society. People should be sexually open because it does not harm others and makes them more happy.

>>14475547
om just give me a quick rundown on the plato dialect and i will btfo him with logic

>>14475567
>with Logic

Sorry, it won't work, the rationalists tried that already.

>>14475349
Are landspammers just failed guenonfags?

>>14475567
Plato argues that one should not let society become too sexually open, for it might make stating that you are into purely hedonistic male-on-male sex a perfectly acceptable occurrence in society, and will thus immediately lead to democracy.

>>14475619
can someone give me a quick rundown on sex as well?

>>14475619
so then this hegel fella uses that argument to say we should all be degenerate butt pirates? how does that make sense?

>>14475629
Under Platonism, it is viewed as the insertion of a male penis into a male/female anal/vaginal cavity. Under Hegel the definitions become more vague, that is part of his clever use of the Platonistic dialectic to argue for increasing sexual emancipation.

>>14475633
And then, postmodernism and degeneration come into play.

>>14475644
so to btfo hegel and plato i need to btfo sex first. has anyone tried it already? can i get a quick rundown on them as well?

>>14475138
LMAO, brainlet post. what, did you get this from a fb post or did you write it for a fb post? lmao

>>14475361
This isn't what I'm saying at all. If you want specifics, I agree with Kierkegaard in his refutation of Hegel, and I do find Heidegger convincing in his critique of Hegel's conception of time and history. However, for the purposes of OP's question, I don't think anyone has convincingly refuted Hegel. I mean it more as a compliment if anything. Hes a tough nut to crack.

>>14475343
I'm not a Hegelian

>>14475695
>I don't think anyone has convincingly refuted Hegel
Guénon-non-reader detected...

>>14475695
Any intellectual accomplishment that you could or could not imagine Guenon has already achieved, retard.

>>14475547
Disgusting and blown out by Socrates
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0178%3Atext%3DGorg.%3Apage%3D494

>>14475339
>too stupid to understand it
>too lazy (cowardly?) to transcribe it
Pick one, no cop outs

>>14475682
I'm enjoying this stone soup dialectic

>>14475138
>getting an education in America
Imagine thinking Marx is comparable to an Antichrist lmao

>>14475114
>Exclaim the Absolute, confound it! That must exist, or there would be nothing at all! Here, strike the table with your fist. Whence does the Absolute come? What a silly question! Did not I tell you it was the Absolute? That will do, forsooth! That will do! Germans are accustomed to content themselves with words instead of thoughts. Do we not train them to it from their cradle? Only look at Hegelianism! What is it but empty, hollow, nauseous twaddle! Yet how brilliant a career was that of this philosophical time-server! A few mercenary individuals had only to strike up a laudation of this stuff, and they at once found an echo to their voices in the empty hollow of a thousand numskulls an echo which still continues to resound, and to extend and behold! An ordinary intellect, a common impostor soon became a sublime thinker.

>Bacon of Verulam already in his time said: Young men learn to believe at Universities. Of this they can learn as much as they wish from us; we have a good stock of articles of faith on hand. Should any misgivings assail you, remember that we are in Germany, where what would have been impossible in any other country, has been found possible: where a dull-witted, ignorant, pseudo-philosopher, whose ineffably hollow verbiage disorganizes peoples brains completely and permanently, a scribbler of nonsense. I am speaking of our dearly beloved Hegel, who has not only been actually proclaimed a profound thinker with impunity, and even without incurring ridicule, but is readily accepted as such: yes, indeed, for this fiction has found credence for the last thirty years, and is believed to this day! Once therefore we have this Absolute with your help, we are quite safe, in spite of Kant and his Critique. We may then philosophise in a lofty tone, making the Universe proceed from the Absolute by means of the most heterogeneous deductions, one more tiresome than the other this, by the way, being their only point of resemblance. We can call the world the Finite, and the Absolute the Infinite thus giving an agreeable variety to our nonsense and talk of nothing but God, explaining how, why, wherefore, by what voluntary or involuntary process lie created or brought forth the world, showing whether he be within or without it, and so forth, as if Philosophy were Theology, and as if it sought for enlightenment concerning God, not concerning the Universe!

>I protest altogether against any community with this Fichte, as Kant publicly and emphatically did in a notice ad hoc in the "Jenaer Litteratur Zeitung." Hegelians and similar ignoramuses may continue to hold forth to their heart's content upon Kant-Fichteian philosophy: there exists a Kantian philosophy and a Fichteian hocus-pocus, this is the true state of the case, and will remain so, in spite of those who delight in extolling what is bad and in decrying what is good, and of these Germany possesses a larger number than any other country.

>>14476604
>The youth of the generation now at its maturity had of course to be spent in the study of "Hegel's gigantic mind," of the "sublime Schleiermacher," and of the "acute Herbart." Alas ! Alas! The great mischief in academical hero-worship of this sort, and in the glorification of university celebrities by worthy colleagues in office or hopeful aspirants to it, is precisely, that ordinary intellects' mere manufactured wares are presented to honest credulous youths of immature judgment, as master minds, exceptions and ornaments of mankind. The students forthwith throw all their energies into the barren study of the endless, insipid scribblings of such mediocrities, thus wasting the short, invaluable period allotted to them for higher education, instead of using it to attain the sound information they might have found in the works of those extremely rare, genuine, truly exce tional thinkers, nantes in gurgite vasto, who only rise to the surface every now and then in the course of ages, because Nature produced but one of each kind, and then "destroyed the mould."

May Hegel's philosophy of absolute nonsense, three-fourths cash and one-fourth crazy fancies, continue to pass for unfathomable wisdom without anyone suggesting as an appropriate motto for his writings Shakespeare's words: "Such stuff as madmen tongue and brain not," or, as an emblematical vignette, the cuttle-fish with its ink-bag, creating a cloud of darkness around it to prevent people from seeing what it is, with the device: mea caligine tutus.

Are you a retarded person? You think that Hegel, the man who still believed in a Christian teleological history is not outdone by any other philosopher?

>>14476679
>In 1820, Schopenhauer was awarded permission to lecture at the University of Berlin. He deliberately, and impudently, scheduled his lectures during the same hour as those of G.W.F. Hegel, who was the most distinguished member of the faculty. Only a handful of students attended Schopenhauer’s lectures while over 200 students attended the lectures of Hegel. Although he remained on the list of lecturers for many years in Berlin, no one showed any further interest in attending his lectures, which only fueled his contempt for academic philosophy.
OH NO NO NO NO PPPFFFF AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

>>14476710
>which only fueled his contempt for academic philosophy.
Uhh can we say based?? Philosophy is an activity not a school subject

>>14475716
I pick the third way - too guenonian and counter-counter-initiatic to write it on 4channel.

>>14475296
>>14476604
>Schopenhauer
Wasn't he just a discount Guénon?

>>14475114
The Dane.

No one on this board understands Hegel.

>>14475114
Hegel isn't worth the read.

>>14476767
All I need to know is that he ripped off his dialectic from the Chinese yin and yang and substituted the totality of the Tao for a Christian style god.

>>14476767
>Figure 3.59
>Wow! that is so EpiC and deeeeepp nobody understands this!!
Mathfag here, this is child's play and quite a pathetic attempt at seeming "quirky" and "intelligent". We draw more complicated diagrams (with actual meaning) literally every single time we congregate. Read Guénon.

>>14476701
>the man who still believed in a Christian teleological history is not outdone by any other philosopher
This. Post-medieval Christianity was retroactively refuted by Rene Guenon.

>>14476846
Not saying it wasn't, just pointing out that any philosopher with a teleological view of history can be outdone by any fellow with two braincells to rub together. Much respect to Guenon - beats Hegel in every respect

>>14476741
this. guenon btfos him for his poor understanding of eastern doctrines. the guy even somehow misunderstood buddhism, the most westernized, diluted and easy to grasp vapid doctrine.

>>14476604
Also in the preface to his two problems of ethics he jumps into Hegel ("because the defense will just claim YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND") and shows three spots where he is wrong. Hegel says you can become heavier without increasing mass; the law of gravitation contradicts the law of inertia; and that matter is perishable.

>>14476923
Did he unironically read Hegel?

>>14475114
Nobody has ever btfo'd Kants critique

>>14476932
read the preface. He read through a couple hundred pages. Other than that he didn't. There's also funny anecdotes of him sending away copies, or refusing to read copies. But he has delved into him before. He has tried. Sch also read Fichte and Schelling--if not more than Hegel, than at least so much that he gives surefire critiques on them, instead of the usual bashing on Hegel. But, in a way, he saw that Hegel deserved that bashing, for how it obscure and nonsensical it was.

>>14476817
>hodge theater
Go back to making iq threads over at >>>/sci/

>>14477004
>Nobody has ever btfo'd Kants critique
Ahem...

>>14477020
>iq
>/sci/
Retroactively refuted by Guénon.

>>14477089
he didnt do it, he was too stupid

Wittgenstein ended philosophy. he exposed it as a pointless fraud, and humanity divested itself from it. the only people left doing it are practicing astrology and irrelevant.

>>14477096
>search "retroactively refuted" in any popular search engine
>several results from the /lit/ archive

>>14477131
>philosophy is cancelled
humanity itself is facing imminent obsolescence and you want to shame people out of thinking this whole thing over

>>14475299
Is "meaningless" just code for "I don't get it"?
>[T]ruly to escape Hegel involves an exact appreciation of the price we have to pay to detach ourselves from him. It assumes that we are aware of the extent to which Hegel, insidiously perhaps, is close to us; it implies a knowledge, in that which permits us to think against Hegel, of that which remains Hegelian. We have to determine the extent to which our anti-Hegelianism is possibly one of his tricks directed against us, at the end of which he stands, motionless, waiting for us.

>>14476741
Schoppie was the GOAT philosopher of his time. Guénon is a meme and not even philosophy.

>>14475716
>>14477111
>>14477268
>he was too stupid
The dumb pieces of shit who think guénon is some kind of pseud. LMAO. He's a brilliant mathematician, knows his western philosophy better than anyone on this board. He also learned french, german, latin, greek, farsi, chinese, hebrew, sanskrit (and more) . That puts him above pretty much anyone in the western world. But that would require you braindead morons to open one of his books. The state of pseuds makes me want to vomit. I don't even larp as an orientalist or a metaphysicist or whatever.. But I actually read shit and buzzwords like "traditionalism" and other nonsensical terms don't have the slightest effect on me. I won't even dwelve into his life as a sufi muslim.

>>14477268
>not even philosophy
Agreed. To even brand Guénon, a true metaphysician in the proper sense of the word, with this label of "philosopher" would be a great insult.

>>14477131

>an autist and failed engineer made his lack of understanding and intrinsic biological flaws apparent to any who read him somehow ended philosophy

Wittgenstein is a hack in the same vein as reddit atheists. Didn't like that he couldn't understand something so he blamed the language rather than blame himself.

>>14477319
He was right, though.

>>14476767
This is literally rebranded aristotelean metaphysics.

>>14475289
Tautology, perhaps.

>>14477302
>B-but he knew sanskrit! That makes his genius unfathomable! Eastern thought is totally not worthless!

>>14477333
no it isn't

>>14475138
Nonsensical. Gonna need citations on that supposed moralism you accuse Marx of. Seems like you are a semi reformed atheist yourself working through some stuff. Good luck.

>>14477722
>citations on that supposed moralism you accuse Marx of
Unironically Réné Guénon.

>>14477722
A reformed atheist working through some stuff? How about you refute me on the basis of my ideas, instead of merely saying "go read more". That presumes there's anything I can read that would tell me something I don't know on this subject, and that I'm wrong, which you have failed to show in regards to both accusations.

>>14478015
>A reformed atheist working through some stuff? How about you refute me on the basis of my ideas, instead of merely saying "go read more". That presumes there's anything I can read that would tell me something I don't know on this subject, and that I'm wrong, which you have failed to show in regards to both accusations.
didn't even read the argument, but your post is oozing onions. >>>/r/eddit/ might be more to your liking.

Hegel didn't BTFO Kant. Hegel followed Fichte and Schelling in trying to escape Kant by expanding the domain of the transcendental to include the Absolute. But ultimately all he did was expand the variety and variability of the transcendental, because nobody actually took his Absolute Idealism seriously after the 1830s. Post-Hegel Hegelianism is really more like a Hegelianized Kantianism, it's basically transcendentalism applied to social structures. Hegel's natural philosophy and metaphysics proper were failures and not really followed up on (except insofar as they were tied back into a social philosophy like Marxism or various fascist statisms).

Kant is the one who really still hasn't been overcome, for the simple reason that nobody has been able to elaborate an unproblematic metaphysico-epistemological description of the relation between mind and non-mind (nature). People play around with various schemes, but obviously nothing has been definitive. The major competing approach is to argue against Kant's ban on intellectual intuition and say that it is possible, i.e. effectively to say that mysticism, or transcendent intuition into God or into the real forms of nature, is possible. But since the chief representatives of this position apparently spend their time shitposting on internet forums, we can say with reasonable certainty that it's not easy to prove the efficacy of this alternative.

The other alternative is some kind of return to speculative metaphysics. This may have been what Whitehead was trying to do, but it's controversial even among Whitehead what exactly he was trying to do. In any case, it's also controversial and thus unclear whether Whitehead was satisfying, or showing the wrongheadedness of, Kant's requirements for what would constitute authentic metaphysics. He would have to be doing one or the other (that is, either doing authentic metaphysics in such a way that Kant would concede he had found a valid way to do it, or validly shrugging off Kant's prohibition on metaphysics in such a way that Kant would concede his prohibition was stupid in the first place). There are some others who attempt to do something like this, like Merleau-Ponty's suggestions of a metaphysics of gestalt. But again, they have been less than effective if the most they ever came up with was speculative schemes that interest a few dabblers, and idiot academics seeking to reverse engineer them for derivative theses on "social thought." In any event, all these schemes are really repeating the strategies for breaking out of Kant which already failed when the Naturphilosophs tried them.

We are basically still in the pen Kant enclosed us in, unless you believe mysticism or Whitehead or Merleau-Ponty just works. All those "speculative realist" morons are just bad Kantians, not even trying earnestly to break out of Kant anymore, just playing around with the various failed attempts while not putting in the time to understand them systematically.

>>14475114
Nietzsche

>>14475114
Deleuze

>>14478098
My diary

>>14475114
Hegel ascended through apotheosis, and now sits in his throne in heaven

>>14475114
deleuze btfo'd hegel and all structuralism idk what u talkimg about bruh

>>14475283
Sad life you have.

>>14478048
Heidegger’s critique of Kant starting from Cartesian assumptions is great

hegel likely found some texts he hid from his contemporaries. i know one of them and i will not tell you which text it is. in marx head he probably thinks he btfo hegel but in reality marx btfo himself for the lack of the foundation hegel was drawing from. carl mark jesus justing himself for eternity without saving anyone. a good meme hint: theres a reason wolverine hated hegel because he is one of those who also read that text.

>>14475138
This.

>>14475283
This

>>14477716
Yea it is

>>14476741
Haha yes actually

>>14478048
All of this is old news and has been surpassed by recent modern philosophy.

Marx, then deleuze btfo marx

>>14478961
The secret is embedded inside marvel comic book movies. How stupid of us not to think to look there.

>>14475774
Imagine an ideology responsible for the deaths of >50 million people in less than 100 years.

In the end only a single refutationist may stand.

>>14479362
invention of agriculture was worse

>>14478015
He asked you to substantiate your thesis. Will you do it?

>>14479068
name some.

>>14475125
lol

>>14475114
Hegel was btfo by Hinduism

>>/lit/thread/S13208492

>>14477131
>Wittgenstein ended analytic philosophy*
ftfy

>>14477302
Knowing maths and languages doesn't make one a philosopher.

>>14475114
Somebody need me?

>>14480234
Then Nietzsche btfo Schopenhauer
Then no one can really btfo Nietzsche so they just copy him. Result: Freud, Deleuze, Lacan, Baudrillard, Foucault, Derrida, Bataille, etc.
Then Deleuze btfo Lacan
Then Baudrillard btfo Deleuze, Freud, Foucault, Derrida, and Marx
Then Icycalm btfo Baudrillard

>>14475283
Fresh off the boat, from reddit, kid? heh I remember when I was just like you. Braindead. Lemme give you a tip so you can make it in this cyber sanctuary: never make jokes like that. You got no reputation here, you got no name, you got jackshit here. It's survival of the fittest and you ain't gonna survive long on 4chan by saying stupid jokes that your little hugbox cuntsucking reddit friends would upboat. None of that here. You don't upboat. You don't downboat. This ain't reddit, kid. This is 4chan. We have REAL intellectual discussion, something I don't think you're all that familiar with. You don't like it, you can hit the bricks on over to imgur, you daily show watching son of a bitch. I hope you don't tho. I hope you stay here and learn our ways. Things are different here, unlike any other place that the light of internet pop culture reaches. You can be anything here. Me ? heh, I'm a judge.. this place.... this place has a lot to offer... heh you'll see, kid . . . that is if you can handle it...

>>14475138
>But Marxist thinking is idealism shadowing itself in rationalism, and hypocritically condemning "mystical thinking",
This

>>14480272
you havent actually read books if you think baudrillard btfod deleuze

>>14480272
My dear Martin didn’t BTFO Nietzsche, but the philosophers you list as copying Nietzsche are much more derivative of Heidegger