/lit/ - Literature

>>14414669
>how do Catholics deal with the fact that their leadership is morally bankrupt
Because they bought into the lie that the Romanist church is the One™ True™ Church™ and don't want to go to hell.

>>14414669
>knowingly
False.
>audacity to think he's an authority on morality.
Appeal to hypocrisy, predicated on a falsehood.
>>14414683
The Catholic Church is the one true Church and there is no salvation outside of it.

>>14414688
You sad man.

>>14414688
>The Catholic Church is the one true Church
Correct. The universal Catholic church as named in the early creeds. Not the Roman Catholic Church.

>>14414669
>He lives in a fucking palace, and tells people from a literal balcony to "soften self-centered hearts"
I assume you have given away all of your posessions and are now justly typing this critique from a library computer right?

>>14414694
The only two claimants to that title, are the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church.

>>14414669
>taken seriously
It is not.

>>14414705
One of those is not Catholic. I think it is clear by now even to the most blind which one that is.

>>14414669
Venetians.

>>14414705
You are incorrect anon. Here is a very short explanation why.
http://www.covenantofgrace.com/westminster_chapter25.htm

>>14414701

How does having a place to live = living in a palace, lmao, nice false equivalency

so you agree the Pope is hypocrite then. It's worthless to tell someone to be less cold hearted when you live in a palace mate, it cheap talk. I'd respect him if he gave away all his possessions like a real spiritual leader, this pope is a hypocrite.

>>14414709
*abortion is underwent by 90%+ of female population in orthodoxy, it is scarcely considered a sin, and it is absolved just by saying it in confession without any true sense of sorrow*

whoah, ortodogs, so serious.

>>14414722
source

>>14414701
That would be how one would follow the example of Christ, but the Church put down that idea hundreds of years ago. Because it turns out, Church leadership likes living in palaces.

>>14414783
my mother, but as you can see it failed.....

>>14414669
I'm not a fan of the Church and the current Pope either, but that's some lowbrow criticism.

If the Church leadership lived and looked like some regular plebs people would not take them seriously.

Your pleb ass ignorant post is in fact a good example of why the Church leadership needs to maintain the image of high status authorities.

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organisation in the world. Most of its wealth is tied up in assets like works of priceless art, many of which were specifically gifted to the Church by its creators. Graciously these masterpieces are put on display for the world to see. The Pope himself lives in a very modest apartment with a few basic possessions.

The Catholic Church has one doctrine as opposed to the countless fractious Protestant sects. Despite the many diabolical members of clergy and awful Popes, none of them have ever spoken wrongly ex cathedra which is in itself miraculous.

The Catholic Church was the only church for almost 2000 years. There is extensive evidence that the early church were practising communion and confession within a lifetime of Christ's death, see the Didache.

There are many reasons besides. It is worthless on here but my own personal experience is also evidence for myself. I spent many years searching and praying on earnest, and I went from being raised by a family deeply mistrustful of the Catholic Church, suspicious that they are the whore of Babylon and all other such nonsense, to eventually coming into it fully. The works of Augustine, Aquinas, Chesterton and Fulton Sheen were instrumental in my conversion, not to mention The Imitation of Christ, The Interior Castle, countless works of unbelievable spiritual depth and richness, centuries of theology, the lives of the Saints, the sheer beauty and Truth which envelops you as you seek and find... I experienced the Spirit before I was Catholic, and the Protestant churches contain some of the Truth, but becoming Catholic I truly understand the meaning 'fullness of the Truth'. I urge anyone who is serious about their Faith to at least seek beyond the surface slanders.

>>14414669
>it's bad because it's against jews and isreal
oy vey

>>14414669
A woman once poured a whole bottle of very expensive perfume over Jesus' feet. Judas- who knew the price of everything and the value of nothing- scolded her saying that it should have been sold, and the money given to the poor. Jesus rebuked him. The best should be given to God, the poor we will always have with us.

>>14415019
And I'm addition, while the apostles were still alive, members of the early Church sought out living Apostle's guidance. The apostle- I forget who- referred them instead to the Bishop of Rome, the first successor of Peter.

>>14414669
What makes me laugh is that people have been mass quitting Catholicism since the beginning.
>The whole of North Africa and the Middle East apostatized with the advent of Islam.
>The whole of Eastern Europe, Greece and the Hellenistic world and Russia apostatized with the advent of Orthodoxy.
>England, Germany, the whole of Central Europe, and all the Scandinavian countries apostatized with the Reform.
>And now the Vatican itself auto-apostatized with the Council of Vatican II which contradicts 1963 years of the Church's teachings and enounces blatant heresies every two lines, culminating with this joke of a Pope who utters heresies every time there is a mic nearby.
And nowadays, there is only roughly one non una cum mass per big city (I know that in Montreal, in Paris and in New York, there is only one), you gotta wonder what's the plan, God creating billions upon billions of people and in the end only a couple of dozens are saved? What's the point?

>>14414669

You need to understand that the Catholic position isn't purely humanitarian, even Christ rebuked his apostles when they were criticizing mary magdalene for using expensive fragrances to wash his feet, instead of selling them and giving to the poor.

>>14415084
una cum means we pray for the pope as the visible head of the church
after all we are doing do you seriously believe its a big psyop to trick people into modernism and only williamson and his pedo buddies are true church (tm)

>>14415019
>none of them have ever spoken wrongly ex cathedra
Woah woah woah hold it right there fren.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
Read this and tell me to my face that it does not contradict the constant teachings of the Church since the Passion.

>>14415113
2nd vat is not ex cathedra, its a pastoral council, didnt proclaim anything dogmatic and may i add its a pile of steaming crap devised by freemasons

>>14415084

From a Catholic point of view, this could be explained that the mass of humanity is bad willed and damned, and the few options for the traditional faith is for the elect who are sparsely scattered. You could even say that during the flood, only a single family was saved. Many saints in the RCC believed in mass damnata

>>14415084
Are you a catholic yourself?

>>14415113
I don't see any teachings beings contradicted. The Church has never categorically stated that members of other religions will be damned. On the contrary, it has always stated that we have no way of knowing for sure whether someone is damned. It is presumptuous t assume otherwise and in the spirit of charity we should instead hope and pray that God has a plan of salvation for all peoples.

>>14414669
This is still a big mystery to this day.

>>14415149

What is the council of Trent

Merry Christmas!

>>14415136
Welp at least I won't be lonely in Hell I guess.

>>14415126
>2nd vat is not ex cathedra, its a pastoral council, didnt proclaim anything dogmatic
Vatican II is pastoral now? It does not redefine the attitude of the Church towards the modern world and false cults, being the socle and basis of the new Church?
Of course it's ex cathedra, it contains teachings approved by the Pope about faith and morals and behaviour and attitude.

not literature

>>14415187
its a pastoral council written by ill intentioned freemasonic/protestant affiliated crowd which tries to weaponize ambiguity to enable them to commit sin and slips through a few heresies here and there

>>14415149
>The Church has never categorically stated that members of other religions will be damned.
You can't possibly be saying that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus
You can't expect to be taken seriously like that friend.

>On the contrary, it has always stated that we have no way of knowing for sure whether someone is damned.
Yes you can. If he is not in a state of grace.

>>14415144
Not Catholic, in deep religious and spiritual searching.

>>14415187
There's a difference between pastoral councils and proclaimed dogma

>>14415210
you know that pope and the church hierarchy being wicked heretics doesnt invalidate the church itself?

>>14415210
There is no way of knowing for sure whether someone died in a state of mortal sin since perfect contrition can restore one to a state of grace even moments from death

>>14414851
>If the Church leadership lived and looked like some regular plebs people would not take them seriously.
Amazing. They really don’t read the Bible.

>>14414669
Don’t try to present an argument when you write at the level of a 4th grader

>>14415231
members of other religions will not all be damned, but they sure as hell wont be saved through superstitions they believe in, but through christ despite them being heretics (if they are such genuinely out of ignorance)
please dont twist this into enabling different religions

>>14415084
>>14415136

At what point would you be disposed to think that Matthew 16:18 does not refer to the Catholic Church? Observe the irony wherein you renounce your Catholicism inasmuch as you compensate for the actual Church's degradation with your own "interiority".

>>14415210
Yes, that states no salvation outside the Church in this world. However the definition of what exactly the Church is can be a bit fuzzy. In the catechism of the Catholic Church 811-848 neither Protestants, Muslims, Jews nor those who are ignorant of Christ are considered to be without hope of salvation. Protestant Churches are considered to have elements of the Truth, i.e. Christ's word.

It's similar to Church teaching on mortal sin. Masturbation is at face value a mortal sin, however the catechism elaborates that addiction and other factors can lessen culpability and render it venial. People should still do their best to live upright lives, go to confession etc, however it is not our place ultimately to say 'this person is going to hell'. It is contrary to the spirit of charity in any case

>>14415241
Not enabling different religions brother. I am just trying to say what you have so succinctly articulated, that all are saved through Christ and that the possibility of their salvation through Christ should not be immediately disregarded when faced with people in other religions.

>>14415271
>lessen culpability and render it venial
masturbation isnt rendered venial by you being a coombrain, you need to go to confession instead of trying to rationalize your sins

>definition of what exactly the Church is can be a bit fuzzy
it isnt fuzzy at all
church is the catholic church and outside it isnt the church
very simple

>>14415222
There is no such thing as a pastoral council. Doesn't exist in any Code, any teaching, any writing, nowhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoral_council
>The concept of the pastoral council was first articulated in the 1965 Vatican II
When you have to make things up to justify your heresies, there's clearly something wrong with it.

>>14415225
What is "the Church" if not the infaillible teachings of the Pope ex cathedra? Sounds like you're just beating around the bush.

>>14415231
Again, beating around the bush. In an absolute state, nobody can be sure of anything. But in a practical sense, what Nostra Aetate implies is that MUSLIMS as a whole (for instance) and the muslim society and the muslim teachings CAN be a way to redemption, and so the Catholics should not try to convert them but rather coexist with them in peace and let them be because they too can be saved without receiving the teachings and sacraments of the Church.

The Council of Vatican II is part of the global plot of the 20th century to end conflict and bring peace to the world by eliminating the sources of conflicts: ethnic and cultural differences, religious differences, etc. Simple as that. The same thing is happening in the Muslim world, where there are multiple preachers (Tarik Ramadan being the leader of them) saying that "it is not set in stone that the peoples of the Book are damned", etc.

>>14415278
you are presenting legitimate church teachings in a way to normalize different religions and lean in the way of ilegitimately tolerating them due to you reluctance towards religious exclusivism
>of their salvation through Christ should not be immediately disregarded when faced with people in other religions
you can leave the "other religions" part out
individual people can be saved through the true church DESPITE of their ignorant superstitious beliefs

>>14415287
Have you actually read the catechism of the Catholic church

Article 6, 2352. Explicitly states culpability may be lessened and factors why.

Anyone struggling with that particular sin should still do their utmost to conquer it and attend confession and mass as much as possible. Please don't presume that I don't.

>>14415298
Yes, that's exactly what I am trying to say.

>>14415297
You have a limited understanding of the relationship between dogmatic proclamations and councils. Attitudes and teachings in councils change, dogma does not and has never been contradicted ex cathedra

>>14415304
culpability may be lessened but it sure as hell isnt lessened to level of venial sin if you really feel like you have to beat you meat just like alcoholism isnt venial, which it would be by your logic
and even more disturbing is your attitude of trying to justify and lessen sins instead of trying to approach them seriously without excusing yourself

>>14414721
>How does having a place to live = living in a palace
Because it shows you are not against the principle just bothered by that gradient. A sin is a sin and wrong is wrong independently of the scale.

>>14415312
still, your immediate approach to it should be to focus on how to get these people out of their ignorance instead of focusing on how to legitimize their behaviour which discourages proselytism and encourages religious indifferentism which are so ripe this dfay and age

>>14415319
You know nothing about me or my attitude to sins. I literally just stated a fact found in the catechism of the Church. I agree all Christians should do their utmost to conquer vices, don't be presumptuous.

>>14415271
Habitual sin does not exonerate culpability, nor make a mortal sin in any degree a venial sin. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Church Doctor, is very clear on habitual sin. As is commonly said by theologians: presumption of God's mercy has damned more than his justice. By repeating this erroneous doctrine (I can't help it!), you err, and this erring is communicable to anyone with ears and eyes. Even St. Augustine, a man most acquainted with horrible struggle of habitual lust would admit years later in role as bishop "the fight is common, but the victory rare."
>>14415304
The CCE is contradicted by numerous Doctors of the Church and is not recognized by all bishops as sound doctrine. It is a modern, post-Vatican II simplification of the faith, and in reducing it the lowest common denominator, all meaning, mystery, and utility is lost.

>>14415339
you made a very concrete assertion about masturbation which is wrong

>>14415334
What causes you to think I don't agree with you completely

>>14415349
i believe you agree with me completely, but i also believe you have been misled towards faulty pastoral approach by ill intentioned chruch authorities and reinforced by insufficient and faulty church cathecism so im trying to shed light on this

>>14415232
>They really don’t read the Bible.
Why should they? Jesus didn't write books and he didn't say people should read them either.

>>14415343
I'm not at all suggesting that anyone should presume his or her salvation and I agree that masturbation is a very damaging sin. I am only stating that, as one can never be certain of their own salvation but should work it out with fear and trembling, none can presume the damnation of others. Not you, not I, nobody.

I tend to agree with the catechism regardless and have found little discrepancy between it and the teachings of the church fathers

>>14415347
Forgive phoneposting but I don't see that I said anything other than what is stated here. I still think masturbation is a very serious sin and all should do their best in trying to root it out. I was trying to make a broader point about the hope of salvation for others, which in the spirit of charity we should have, rather than condemnation

>>14415418
there is nothing there which says that it is rendered venial in cases as frivolous as the one you described and like
>which in the spirit of charity we should have, rather than condemnation
in the said spirit of charity we should condemn sinning and lead people away from it rather than seeking as much as possible for causes which would alleviate said actions

> Of what use are confessions, when, in a short time after them, the sinner returns to the same vices? "He who strikes his breast," says St. Augustine, ”and does not amend, confirms, but does not take away sins." When you strike your breast in the tribunal of penance, but do not amend and remove the occasions of sin, you then, according to the Saint, do not take away your sins, but you make them more firm and permanent; that is, you render yourself more obstinate in sin.

>>14415126
>sede

I’m glad you outed yourself at least.

>>14415456
the only reason why you are calling me a sede is because you know i am not one and you know that designation would be hurtful for me

>>14415432
Condemn sinning, yes, not the sinner. Suicide likewise is a mortal sin yet the Church states we should not despair of the possibility of even their salvation. I may not be articulating myself very well unfortunately, it's Christmas and I've taken to the festivities in a way that's disrupted my ability to do so. I completely agree with the condemnation of sin, and if only you know how serious I am about my faith you would have no doubt that we see things the same way.

All I am trying to say is that we should never despair of the salvation of anyone through Christ. This is the only point I am trying to make, albeit very poorly. I hope many will come to the Church and know the love of Christ this next year. Merry Christmas.

>>14414669
Protestants are triggered this Christmas ;)

>>14415467
>>14415456

Lots of trad cats use sedevacantism as some sort of boogeyman without ever refuting it. At least people like the Dimonds try to be coherent with their position, but I think that the sede conclusion forces people to come to terms with things they would rather ignore.

>>14415469
>Suicide likewise is a mortal sin yet the Church states we should not despair of the possibility of even their salvation
only reason i can think of for that is mental illness (or anything such which would impede ones ability to reason) on side of person who commited suicide, which isnt all that common
and that shouldnt be pointed out with such zeal because it can mislead people into normalizing suicides which has happened in practice
>I've taken to the festivities in a way that's disrupted my ability to do so
cant say the same, its been a rather calm day in my home
>and if only you know how serious I am about my faith you would have no doubt that we see things the same way
i know, however growing up in cafetteria catholic/secular environment i see every day the fault of the churches official and your pastoral approach which leads into indifferentism and eventually into laity and clerics adopting heretical beliefs by using "grey zones" and excusing htemselves by the very talking points you use in good faith

for example it is very true that suicide doesnt have to end one up in hell, however this approach has led people into trivializing suicide and it is one of MANY MANY such examples

>All I am trying to say is that we should never despair of the salvation of anyone through Christ
i think that is the wrong focus - it doesnt help anyone to seek rosy sides of everyday life, we should rather focus on the bad parts which are so prevalent to fix them instead of trying to excuse ourselves and others in ever increasing sin

It is not taken seriously, that's why they are losing believers every day. The only exception are Subsaharian Africa and Latin America because of Poverty and illiteracy (Africa) and because of ignorance about other cultures (Latin America).

However, in the last few years it seems Catholicism is beginning to disappear even in Latin America.

>>14415019
>The Catholic Church was the only church for almost 2000 years.
Is this the power of American education?

>>14415489
ironic part is that it isnt used on sedes - seds dont care
it is used to shame people actually loyal to the church for having beliefs one considers too radical

>>14415467
Your previous post’s attitude is indicative of a sedevacantist’s usual language, you know, calling it devised by freemasons or some other nonsense. I apologize for calling you that if you were not a sede, but you fooled me with your attitude. My question is what is your recourse if you believe the church to be in error?

I'm interesting in the Bible and Christianity but the infighting between the different churches just makes you all look like retarded Muslims. Now if I pick Catholic or Protestant one half of the Christians I know will hate me, so I will do neither

>>14415535
>Your previous post’s attitude is indicative of a sedevacantist’s usual language, you know, calling it devised by freemasons or some other nonsense
vulgar colloquialisms arent exclusive to sedes and freemason accusations are pretty common where i come from among everyone

>My question is what is your recourse if you believe the church to be in error?
i dont believe the church to be in error, i believe people currently in charge to be in error and ignoring and twisting its teachings

>>14415136
>Many saints in the RCC believed in mass damnata

As a practicing Catholic, and a scrupulous one, it’s that attitude that disturbs me the most. If their belief is that 95 percent of even Catholics are doomed, then I wonder why God even bothered to create man.

>>14415561
cant you see for yourself how little people care about faith, the church ,sin and virtue, everyone does unrepentant sin left and right and are more and morea apostasizing
do you really expect from the people you see every day to go to heaven?

This thread was moved to >>>/pol/237289507