/lit/ - Literature

>how can we dilute and deracinate the consciousness of the youth even further?

She has a point, but don't expect any good faith replies.
Having a syllabus of only White literature made sense in a White society, but now America is no longer a White society it makes no sense to cling to that. For example in Europe they don't teach only Catholic literature, even though for a long time Europe was 100% Catholic.

>>14311002
not even catholics taught only catholic literature
and there is no point, we cant just implement shitty quality books just because brown people wrote them

>>14311009
>we cant just implement shitty quality books just because brown people wrote them
Nobody is suggesting such a thing

>>14310916
he's literally right and makes a good point and is saying what everyone thinks. that being said, his post will burn in flames

>>14310916
>Classics are too hard to read, dumb things down for me
>I'm too much of a narcissist to connect with anything doesn't match my personal experiences.

>>14310916
>>14311002
>Europe
>British

She needs to take a fucking geography class.

>>14311028
>>14311009
>>14311033
of you guys can’t form coherent arguments against this sort of thing, you know you will only see it continue to happen. . .

>>14310916
LatinX
>comes from illiterate society
>speaks English now
>wonders why most books are written in English are written in a language that white people invented.

Fine, be unilingual Spanish, you dumb bitch, and go live in a majority Spanish-speaking society.
Also, stop spitting out kids at fifteen and raise them properly. Even black toddlers are better behaved than hispanic ones.

>>14311054
>and go live in a majority Spanish-speaking society.
She does already, she's American

>>14310916
They are right. The USA is not a white European style country anymore and it never will be again. The majority of young people are Hispanic and do not have any Anglo-Saxon roots; more Hispanic literature should be integrated into the US curriculum in order to connect them to their roots. Some classics should remain, of course, as there are still some white children in the US, but black classics and Asian classics should have the same amount of airtime.

>>14310916
>significant facet
Stopped reading here

>>14310916
I personally think that the public school system itself is overused: plebs will be plebs despite their education; they will not value knowledge, and therefore schooling them is a waste of time and efforts, education should be reserved to those who actually will it.

This absurd mentality is, of course, a product of the French "Enlightenment" thinking, which ironically set an age of darkness in Europe that is about to end along Europe itself.

The only alternative is to return to an agricultural feudal system, sadly, it would take massive action to unlearn the toxic liberal ideas which the current political establishment has feriociously imposed us for centuries.

>>14310916
On the contrary, the US curriculum should be even more aggressively British, and measures should be taken to make things sufficiently odious for Mexicans to discourage them from coming here.

>>14310916
yes, lets force a bunch of edgy zoomers to read nothing but books about spics raping white women and see how much they come to love the mulatto underclass.
its hilarious, the harder they try to force this shit, the more racist the kids are gonna become, so i'm all for it. make them read about jamals exploits in the hood and his struggle against da popo n sheeeiiit. it will totally resonate with them and fill them with a fraternal love for the black man. they're just making it cooler and cooler to be racist the more they try to force nigger dick down the kids throats.

>>14311314
Nothing will change lel, Anglos care more about being nice than about not turning into at South American hellhole.

i didnt read any books in high school. most of the time my classes just watched the movie and filled out sheets about what happened.

>"While I think that white classics are very good, I think modern youngsters would benefit more from reading diverse quality literature that better reflects their own preocupation in today's globalized world"
>REEEEEE YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO DUMB DOWN THE CANON YOU MULATO ARRRRRG MAGA
You guys are fucking retarded

>>14311502
name one book written by a shitskin worth reading

>>14310916
Why is it that those who call for "more diverse authors" to be taught never actually provide any examples?

>>14311518
I'm not so retarded as to be born an a*glo, but the nigger in pic related is pretty basé

>>14310916
she has a point (it's most likely a she), to a certain degree
could be addressed by cutting down on the number of classics read, and then inserting more contemporary/local works (which, depending on your definition, isnt a classic). in her case, Gabriel Garcia Marquez may fit the criteria.

on the other hand, you know she's a dumb purple hair "muh feminism" because of how casually she describes the various classic work authors as "white males."
this disregards the fact that many of these classics were written in a time when being white (as a category) wasnt the be all end. irish people are white. irish people were also thought of a subhuman scum.
Dosto is white, but Dosto is also vastly different than someone like Fitzgerald.
maybe the biggest issue (but not the only issue) lies in her narrow world view of only seeing things through superficial, nature-given categories that are immutable:
>white, male, Eurocentric
i may be wrong, but im not sure how many classics hinge on being white, male, or Eurocentric in order to be called great.

also, slightly irrelevant, but pertinent nonetheless, is that the public school system is a shitshow. so any discussions about how to change it will inevitably run into the real world problems of implementing the solution within a garbage system.

>>14310916
>only giving students "the classics" to read stigmatizes what "good literature" is because they're "white", in the US this will mean mostly Anglo/Anglicized Euros
>why don't the books cover Latinx issues
>Latinx
>The US is Eurocentric, baww, it doesn't address minorities enough

Ch*canos were a mistake, and Anglos just enable them with their pathetic "niceness". Ch*canos - too proud to be Mexican, too butthurt and foreign to be American.

>>14311518
Sula
Black Boy
Invisible Man
Poetry of Aime Cesaire

>>14311544
good post but I’m not sure that someone like Marquez would do. he’s not a minority writer, he’s just foreign.

>>14311743
And you think these are in the same league as Homer, Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, Milton, etc?

>>14311778
No you retard that wasn't the question. You asked "name some books worth reading" not "are black writers as good as Shakespeare, Milton, Dante?" I'm not delusional, for whatever reasons (idc) those are writers who are miles ahead of what any minority writer has put out. But that doesn't make the minorities not worth reading.
Anyways this girl clearly isn't saying that they shouldn't be read. I'm not even sure she's saying that minorities are as good as the classics. What she wants is a compromise. pic related she's probably more lit than some people on this board

>>14310916
Doesn't read about her own culture because it wasn't mentioned in classics?

This position makes sense when you realize your average retard only reads what they're told to in school. How do we get people to read independently? Is it really just "this person is your color, read this?"

I know I'm a cliched faggot but it's frustrating people don't like knowledge or reading for the sake of their own mind. They have to feel a color connection. I'm latin and grew up in LA and never felt the need to connect to my races writing because it's my race. Two years after going to college everyone I grew up with who never mentioned race became obsessed with it. What goes on in people’s minds? Were they unconscious throughout their lives? Why does a faggot 35 year old lecturing them in a college class room suddenly make them go apeshit and feel like they’ve been enlightened?

English programs in primary and secondary are designed to make youth engage with works relevant to the traditions of society, not to accommodate individuals and their experiences.

>>14311043
The coherent argument is that Europeans experienced an unprecedented intellectual and cultural boom for about 400 years that produced some of the most intellectually stimulating materials that no other civilisation *since* then has experienced except maybe early 20th century America, and the causes of this are irrelevant, the purpose of a public education is to equip every single citizen with the necessary tools to survive and even prosper, by replacing intellectually rigorous source materials with feel good self-affirming diversity novels you are actively DISADVANTAGING your own students against someone who went to Eton.

>tl;dr You are actually empowering the European intellectual hegemony by not standardising its source materials.

>>14311821
>Neil Gaiman

/lit/ generally has an aversion to anything liked by dumbass reddit proles who would like anything that made them "feel good." Sometimes if you go out into normie spheres of discourse they will say things like "Ummm? You can't say this game is bad :S I had fun playing it. Are you saying having fun is bad? Lmao!!!" because their primitive libidinally hypertrophied and oversocialized brains can't conceive of Good/Bad as expressing anything other than "duhhhh but did I ernjoy it? Hyuck!" This is similar to Piaget's stadial theory of moral development, where the externalization of morality into an objective, self-standing order is a relatively mature stage beyond mere hedonic calculus, punishment-aversion, and even shame-aversion or fear of "loss of face," a stage not reached by every person or even every culture, and even this relatively mature stage is still just a prelude to the fully developed view of morality as the cosmic order itself, as in ṛta or dharma, or Plato's description of the moral Good as coterminous with the aesthetically/sensuously Beautiful and the epistemically True. Normies are essentially at a seriously defective child's level of moral development, innately. This is worsened by institutions promoting their retardation (in both senses of the term), and further worsened by the belief of (now merely ossified) bourgeois culture that the only moral value is the subjective happiness of individual experiencers, represented most vulgarly by hedonic utilitarianism. The innate tendency of the normie to go "NNRNRGH? GRUGG LIKE? IT AM GOOD BECAUSE ME LIKE? ME LIKE EAT BAG OF SUGAR... ME LIKE WHEN MOVIE AND MUSIC IS SUGAR IN VISUAL FORM... YOU CANNOT SAY BAD IF ME LIKE! MORE SUGAR FOR GRUGG!" is thus reinforced by institutions which have a vested interest in deepening this state of arrested development, and the old bourgeois myth of utilitarianism and worldview of "everybody is equal :^) there is no such thing as aristoracy, let alone arete :^) the be reasonable and rational is to enjoy watchin' a good movie ;) pass the sugar my friend" is easily operationalized for this purpose.

>One must rid oneself of the bad taste of wanting to agree with many. "Good" is no longer good when one’s neighbour utters it. And how could there even be a "common good"! That expression contradicts itself: what can be common always has only little value. In the end things must stand as they stand and have always stood: great things remain for the great, the abysses for the profound, the delicacies and shudders for the refined, and, to sum up all this in brief, everything rare for the rare.

Neil Gaiman may not be intrinsically bad, but he stinks with the stink of those who justify things by going URRGHH? ME LIKE IT? IT MAKE ME FEEL GOOD WHEN ME READ IT WHILE WORKING AT IPHONE STORE?? WHY YOU CRITICIZE AND MAKE GRUGG FEEL BAD?

>>14310916
But shakespeare was a nigger :thinking:

>>14311896
Based post

SO, WHENEVER I FUCKING POST REDDIT BEING REDDIT I GET HOUNDED OUT OF /LIT/, BUT WHEN SOMEONE POSTS A MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT FROM THAT PLEBSHIT SITE, YOU RETARDS LAP IT UP AND ACTUALLY DISCUSS IT?

>>14311878
that makes sense except, like others have said, what happens when the cultural context stops being European, or at least significantly diminshes? an European intellectual hegemony still requires people (Europeans?) to maintain it

>>14311951
"lol guys let's jerk off how much better we are than this LAUGHABLE internet website" is much more reddit than a post that (should) requires thinking.

>>14310916
We barely read any classical literature at school. We read pointless, unmemorable shit.

>>14311002
why is the immediate assumption that the only reason shakespeare is in the curriculum is because he was white.

no one is clinging to fucking wordsworth because they love white people, where is this line of reasoning coming from.

>>14311989
the cultural context is european by accident, you dunce. shakespeare did not write to maintain a european hegemony. why is your immediate assumption that the only reasons these works exist or are celebrated is because their authors are white?

>>14311100
It has nothing to do with being White or European. The classical tradition is the root of Western culture, regardless of race. The institutions and civic culture of Western European and North American nations comes from the classical world.

Then again, I guess it does have something to do with race. That is this gigantic push to abandon the civic traditions of the classical world shows that these traditions are perhaps fundamentally incompatible with non-European peoples regardless of the absence of race as a specific component of these traditions.

>>14311989
The cultural context hasn’t stopped being European. It will never stop being European. The United States, for example, amid inherently rooted in the Classical and European tradition. Our political systems, institutions, civic notions, language, etc. are all rooted in this and many of them are built into the civic fabric of the nation. You can’t separate the too.

Think of it this way. If you go to China and live there for 30 years. Then, you go to some island in the middle of the Bahamas and establish a state built on traditionally Chinese notions that are perhaps even woven into the political constitution of the state, your state is fundamentally based on the Chinese tradition whether you and your people are Arab or Latino or whatever.

The fundamental issue here is that you’re conflating with tradition with race. While there is some overlap between the two, they are not the same. Ancient Rome for example, had its own uniquely Roman traditions and customs despite being somewhat of a multicultural empire.

>>14312062
I don't think Shakespeare wrote to maintain a European hegemony. I do think that there are people who would promote Shakespeare because he is white, or European, or Anglo, rather than because of their own independent evaluations of his work. Just like I think that there are people who promote authors because they are black, or brown, or women, rather than first evaluating their work. I think race, ethnicity, and nationality ARE significant influences on who isn't and who is in the curriculum. That's not a judgment in either direction.

>>14311821
She's comparing minorities to the classics in the context of what should be read by students in public school. Whether something is worth reading in general says nothing about whether it should be read in a school course where there's only time for a limited number of books. I went to one of the better public schools in one of the more educated states and I never read any Greek or Roman or medieval writers, but we read plenty of African American and Holocaust books. Now in my state they recently passed a law saying that it's mandatory for school courses to teach an LGBT section. What this woman wants is not just wrong, it's cancer and she deserves to be punished until she no longer holds these retarded views.

>>14312109
I don't think political constitution can be said to be that immutable. But maybe I am confusing race and tradition. Still, the example of ancient Rome as analogous for the US wouldn't be inconsistent with saying that a Mexican American writer, for whom their identity is somewhat important, can still write and be incorporated into an American tradition. in other words, to what extent does the tradition permit additions?

>>14312153
Mexican and American identities are fundamentally opposed. There are identities that can be incorporated into the American tradition, but that isn’t one of them.

>>14310916
Thanks for crossposting this insightful article from fucking reddit.

fuck off nigger

>>14312127
>>14312127
i'm sorry that your education turned out like that, but in my experience there WAS a compromise. I read classics and minority books, Aeschylus and Achebe. I don't think my experience was bad. I guess the big problem with her post would be taking it too far, which to your credit happens often these days

>>14312192
You have to realize that these people don't want compromise. They want the appearance of good faith and compromise that way you give into them and then once they start getting their way they say "well if we're going to replace some people with minorities we might as well replace them all since minorities are obviously better if we're replacing them with minorities in the first place". It's the same strategy they've used for everything, you give them an inch and they take a mile. There's no compromising with these people, no trading words. The solution to them won't come from arguing with them, or they'll ruin everywhere just like they ruined my state.

>>14312153
I’m sorry, but you really are totally missing the point. American civic culture is predicated on the classical tradition. American notions of civic liberty, democracy, political institutions, exist within the context of the classical tradition that is indicated by classical literature. It is inexplicably tied to race, but still independent from it. The idea is that American culture is to be capable of integrating Mexican culture specifically without changing it.

Let’s say a Chinese man emigrates to America and advocates what you are advocating for: the public education system stray from classical literature in favor of Chinese literature to accommodate this Chinese-American. There’s two problems. The first is that these notions of liberty, democracy, fraternity, which are necessary prerequisites for the existence of “American” culture are completely foreign to the Chinese socio-cultural ethos. They quite literally do not exist in Chinese culture. They are ideas that are basically exclusive to the Classical European culture from a historical perspective. They are inexplicably tied to that tradition and nothing can change that. The second problem is that the integration of traditions that undermine these precepts result in a straying of the American civic tradition from its very foundation. That is to say, that it causes the American tradition to betray itself and no longer be the American tradition. That speaks to a larger overall issue that suggests maybe certain socio-political ideas are compatible with some races and not others, but that’s a different topic frankly. The essential point I’m trying to make is American civic tradition was never about multicultural immigration, no matter what the news media tells you. It was about a limited, representative, and democratic republic, equality, and government preservation of certain God-given rights as well as opportunity. These ideas inherently come from the classical tradition, not other traditions and they have virtually nothing to do with race beyond the potential implications that race is an obstacle in their realization. To justify changing this on the basis of race is an argument to change the American civic tradition into something else altogether, something that is perhaps inevitable, but distinctly not American.

>>14311989
Then you have already drunk the kool-aid and failed to realise what has unfolded over the course of the last century. European has ceased to be an ethnically tangible identity, in the new global world the new model European is king. The new European could be Chinese, Russian, Arabic, American, etc. they all go to private schools in Europe, elite universities in Europe, they all study the Greeks, they all learn multiple languages, and they are all inheriting vast fortunes from their parents and intermarrying. A half Chinese half Russian will travel from his flat in Paris to his apartment in Manhattan, will be well versed in English Literature and Continental Philosophy, will speak Italian/German/French/English, will regularly attend Opera, will have an investment portfolio in the UAE, and will have a Swedish girlfriend. He is the new European, meanwhile the unwashed masses will be engaged in idpol and infighting as poor working class Brits are accused of white privilege while the new European goes about his life with the elites. I know this because I've seen it first hand as an art dealer in classical art. The amount of Rubens, Titians, Delacroixs, Cezannes I've seen in the private collections of Jews, Arabs, and Chinese people who all promote this 'dismantle white privilege' attitude would make your head spin. The European Aristocracy is creating a new global home for itself right under your nose.

>>14312721
To add further, the problem is most people have not travelled enough to understand how superior European high culture is, don't get me wrong all cultures have their strengths and weaknesses, but European culture is the most suitable for the wealthy. Because it was built during a period of unprecedented wealth monopolisation, what you need to understand is European/Colonialist culture is essentially the culture of rich people. All wealthy people within a few generations gravitate towards European qualities, so the wealthy people of the world will pursue European ideals for those reasons and will use them as dog whistles for their elitism. I myself know a very rich Jewish Anglo-aristocrat marrying a girl from Brunei, she engages in all kinds of charity work, she regularly promotes anti Zionist material, she talks about white privilege and helping the poor, and in their homes it is literally ALL European works of art, Grecian busts, they talk about Nietszche and Sartre, they both went to Cambridge, and they will often complain about paying taxes after having a few drinks. They espouse none of their views, because why should they? They only care about their kids and their kids are going to be the *new* Europeans.
My parents were Iranians who grew up dirt poor but in a time when you could get a strict high quality education in America still, my parents both speak 6 languages, got full scholarships to Ivy League schools, and got their degrees in English Literature which is how they met. This kind of social mobility is what is actively being dismantled. By the time I was in high school I was constantly being pushed towards Islamic texts, Islamic arts, Islamic authors, I was constantly being told about not being afraid to complain if the teacher was insensitive. Meanwhile my parents were stuffing Shakespeare down my throat like there was no tomorrow.

>>14310916
>Latinx
Fuck Anglos. That isn't a fucking word, and a "gendered" language makes sense phonetically. Its more that the gender descriptors fit into the scheme of phonetics of the language.
I wouldn't expect any monolingual Amerifat trying to cling to a shred of distant ancestry that they have ZERO knowledge of, to actually understand this, but at the very least I didn't expect the arrogance of attempting to change a language that is not theirs, and quite clearly are not in the least bit fluent in.

>>14312721
> The amount of Rubens, Titians, Delacroixs, Cezannes I've seen in the private collections of Jews, Arabs, and Chineseliberal tradition. How is it Fair (we love that word in English!) people who all promote this 'dismantle white privilege' attitude would make your head spin.
Poos are especially bad with this rhetoric. Ironically they're going to rule over a shithole. I truly don't understand why people glorify aristocrats. How many great artists, thinkers, scientists, and so on were of aristocratic background? All aristos do is provide patronage.

>>14312619
It's based on the British tradition, which is autonomy-worship and universalist liberalism. To fail to integrate the Other would be to reject the British tradition. It wouldn't be Fair to not accommodate them, after all!

>>14312791
Calling people "LatinO" isn't very nice to women!

>>14312771
Hahahah, you semi-literate /lit/ kids can't see this, of course, but this is all LARPing.
The "art dealer" writing these long-ass pontificating posts is probably more like a used-car dealer sitting in a crappy ex-council housing estate in Rotherham.

>I myself know a very rich Jewish Anglo-aristocrat marrying a girl from Brunei, she engages in all kinds of charity work, she regularly promotes anti Zionist material, she talks about white privilege and helping the poor, and in their homes it is literally ALL European works of art, Grecian busts, they talk about Nietszche and Sartre, they both went to Cambridge, and they will often complain about paying taxes after having a few drinks

Anyone with more than a year's undergraduate education sees through this LARPing. Nobody who supposedly "studied the Greeks" would have a "Grecian bust" in their home. That kind of thing is for illiterate Pakistanis who made a million buying up condemned properties and renting them to housing benefit claimants. Nor would people of the kind he claims to know personally "talk about Sartre" (although if he DID know Cambridge graduates personally he would certainly know how to spell "Nietzsche"). No one who has studied the humanities at a high level has talked about Sartre for about seventy years now. Sartre is the philosopher that people will name if they are asked to name a philosopher and their entire knowledge of philosophy comes from crappy Hollywood movies or stand-up comedy routines.
Please, you dumb LARPing fuck, just leave: the kids who post here are cringey enough without you making them even cringier with your self-aggrandizing misinformation

>>14312861
I was just reaching for examples spur of the moment, there was a thread about Nietzsche and Sartre just came to me next, it could just as easily have been Seneca, or Virgil. If you cannot see that droves of rich Arabs, Russian, and Chinese people are sending their kids to study in the UK and France and USA, you're delusional. They're going to feed poor blacks and mexicans a completely different curriculum than gets taught in Eton or Harrow. And while I don't deal in Rubens or Titians, I do deal small Old Master pictures and you see a lot of people collecting them when you visit their houses. Also a Grecian bust is not inherently a gauche thing to have in your house, maybe if you also have marble everywhere and a golden toilet it would be extremely cringe, but a single one used as a book end is very typical. Did I trigger you somehow?

>>14312809
I don't glorify aristocracy, I know that I am condemned to live under it. The globalist world promises more opportunities but they will invariably provide all those opportunities to Oxford graduates and people who are well connected. It is better to teach people what the elite are taught than to coddle them with feel good material.

>>14312032
Women

>>14312619
I’m not advocating for that. I think it’s a good idea for the public education system to compromise with classical literature in favor of the addition of (using your example) Chinese-AMERICAN literature. I think it would make sense to require something like Joy Luck Club to be read, not The Romance of Three Kingdoms. Sorry if I was unclear but my assumption is that the literature is still about a uniquely American sort of experience, ethos. Although going back that looks different from what the redditor was saying

>>14312861
>>14312809
Read this carefully and try to understand it, it is already too late for us, we are condemned to serfdom.

>>14312922
What's it from?

>>14312906
Why require Joy Luck Club to be read as a sop to the Chinese? (I know it's quintessentially American to do this, but still...)

>>14312945
Beyond Good and Evil.

>>14312955
First thing that came to mind. What else would count? Marguerite Duras if we talk about the west rather than America?

>>14312900
this is bullshit, i went to oxford and got fucking nothing. I dislike this "muh elite colleges." What you mean is "muh trust-fund kids." There are plenty of people that went to crap unis and are still rolling in money because of their parents. The fact that a lot of them go to oxford too doesn't mean oxford inherently provides you with a set life or a place in the elite.

>>14313006
Tbh Oxbridge doesn't mean much, it's all about Eton.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/rich-foreign-families-brexit-public-school-rush-to-send-children-harrow-eton-st-pauls-uk-falling-a7609181.html
https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/aristocrat-uk-britain-families-double-wealth-empire-exclusive-study-498179

>>14313019
fair enough, because eton reflects the position of the parents and oxbridge has at least some part of meritocracy

>>14312906
But you are advocating that. Perhaps you are doing so unwittingly, but you are advocating that. The entire premise is a universal and unifying civic culture. The foundation of this civic culture is emphatically NOT Chinese nor Chinese-American culture. Socially, the idea is to allow Chinese heritage to culturally integrate into the American experiment, but in order for that to happen there has to be a single unifying myth when unfortunately, for the Chinese-Americans is distinctly not Chinese nor could it ever be Chinese. I mean think about what you’re saying. You want the public school system which has a responsibility to provide civic education to replace civically relevant literature for not civically relevant literature. There’s no reason Chinese-American literature can’t exist or be appreciated in America, but the idea that it should be replace or even be integrated into the American public education system is frankly nothing more that multicultural feel good sentimentality. There’s absolutely no civic or socio-political justification for besides intent to undermine America’s institutional basis and traditions. That’s not say that’s your intent, but simply that’s what it achieves.

>>14312883
Yes. Very stupid people telling transparent lies to children always triggers me.
I am fully aware that the sons and daughters of high-ranking Chinese Communist Party officials and so on come to Paris or London to study. I know many of them myself. None of them study "the Greeks", though, or would ever look on a Titian or a Rubens as anything other than a pure investment. You seem to have acquired from somewhere - no idea from where exactly but I'm sure it isn't from any personal experience - the idea that rich Chinese, Arabs and so on have moved in to take up the sort of position in European cultural life that was occupied two hundred years ago by a Beckford or a Byron. That is a completely false idea. The polyglot, polymath aristocrat that you are fantasizing about no longer exists and the position that they occupied in 18th and 19th century society no longer exists either. The new international plutocracy does tend to speak several languages, it's true, simply due to the fact that they live in several countries. But they no longer pursue knowledge for knowledge, or art for art's, sake as certain members of an equivalent income-bracket did a hundred or two hundred years ago.

>>14313019
I thought they'd be worth more than that. Maybe by virtue of being American it seems like mid-$10ms isn't THAT much when we have so many billionaires.

>>14312721
correct. the west has won and its not even close. reminder something like 5 billion people speak a European language now as either 1st 2nd or 3rd

>>14312809
> How many great artists, thinkers, scientists, and so on were of aristocratic background?

Most of them. Seriously. The idea of the effete, luxurious, mercantile aristocracy that we have today was not the case for the vast majority of recorded European history. Historically, aristocrats were essentially militant land owners who oversaw farming communities and they were often forbidden to engage in certain economic pursuits or socially dejected if they did so and expected to put their lives on the line for the land and their lords.

You're time is over wh*toid, the age of the BLACK BVLL is upon us and your small dick writers are going to be history. White women will be reading speared dicked melanin rich authored books and there is nothing you can do about it. Bow before your new BLACK MASTERS or PERISH whitey.

>>14313103
What time period did that change in? I guess I don't know that much about "pre-mercantile" times.

>>14312922
>Read this carefully and try to understand it

you insufferable LARPing little prick

I was reading Nietzsche in German before you were born. I know his work well enough to have long since given up this infantile "seek to extract from the words of the master the ineffable wisdom that is contained therein" attitude that you adopt - or more likely just LARP at adopting - toward it.
You don't seem to understand it yourself, anyway - or at least the angle that you understand it from is decidedly non-Nietzschean. Who is this "us" and "we" that you talk about? Do you consciously identify with the slave-class that Nietzsche, in this passage, sees arising? If you do, then it's your problem and you should speak only for yourself. Nietzsche - as the passage clearly indicates - saw a quite different attitude to this development as possible.
But I think that the thesis exponded in this passage is actually one of Nietzsche's many prognostic errors, in fact and indeed one that he had recognized to be an error within a couple of years of writing it. The works of 1888 take a less "dialectical" view of democracy.
But of course, you wouldn't be able to discuss that, would you?

>>14311043
Yeah because 'forming coherent arguments' is really going to have an effect on this process you snivelling dishonest sack of shit

>>14313054
I guess. But you have to understand that I’m young enough to not recognize this idea of American education in practice. I’ve never gone to a public school that conceives of itself as strictly responsible for providing a civic education to its students.
Maybe the issue here is that I just don’t know enough about Chinese Americans, who have only been a real presence for what? 150 years in America?
What would you say about teaching an author like James Baldwin or Toni Morrison?
>>14313159
It’s a matter of conscience not efficacy

>>14313139
The commonly accepted notion was that the “middle class” started to overthrow the aristocracy around the 16th century when they seized political control by way of finance and politically, the ramifications became manifest with the French Revolution. However, revolutions against the traditional aristocracy started much early and the aristocracy itself started to betray some of those ideas progressively at least as early as Ancient Rome. Generally, speaking though there were strong social and political expectations placed on members of the aristocratic class that mandated they participate in military endeavors and avoid mercantile activities with some exceptions. Roman knights for example came to dominate much of mining and agricultural endeavors, for example, but mostly from an ownership and administrative responsibility, not necessarily the corporate profiteering type we tend to think of today and they were basically forbidden from participating in other activities and associated guilds. Over time titles of nobility became increasingly granted to people outside of the aristocratic class and to merchants rather than militants, but within the noble born aristocratic class there still appears to be strong social pressures to abstain from such things. It’s also worth nothing the old form of aristocracy is for the most part gone and buried. Killed off by wars and bloody revolutions like what occurred in France, for example, what we consider aristocrats today wouldn’t even be considered aristocrats back then.

>>14311009
>implement shitty quality books
?

>>14313195
Also, would this demand an evaluation of the traditional western canon itself in terms of civic use? Because surely not every author we throw under that umbrella could be taught. Would you say Kafka should be taught in high school?

>>14311518
The poetry of James Emanuel

>>14313225
This is all just further evidence, as if any more were needed, of what a shit-tier board for tryhard illiterate retards /lit/ is.
Are you all really so young and dumb and lacking in basic high-school education that you need some delusionally self-regarding, lonely, bored mediocrity like this guy to type out a primer in elementary social history for you?

>>14313150
I do identify with the slave class, that is correct. I work with rich people but I am myself quite poor and I notice all kinds of patterns in their behaviour. It is quite clear, to myself, that this is the direction Europe is headed in, a hyper-educated elite and a drooling servant class being constantly praised as a form of placation. I already am painfully aware of how sub standard my education was despite my efforts to fill in the gaps wherever I could. Just speaking to someone who went to one of the top 4 schools in London makes it obvious how much more rigorous their education was.

>>14310916
Does she know that there is an AP Spanish Lit class? Have she realized that Hispanic literature is written in (be surprised) spanish?

>>14313266
>implying Americans on an American imageboard learn any history pre-1776 and that any history they learn isn't a narrative about progressive overcoming of racism

>>14313266
Refute what I said then.

Holy shit, that girl needs a complete 3-hours-long session of anal sex without condom so that she can stop being so fucking annoying.

>>14313275
You don't seem to be exhausting all the logically possible interpretations of your experience. I mean, specifically, that if your own education was indeed sub-standard, then it could well be that you are mistaking for "hyper-education" what is in fact a barely adequate level of general culture among the very rich.
The problem could even be that you are not badly educated, just rather stupid.
In any case, I don't think anybody with any degree of real culture is sincerely impressed by the products of "elite institutions" these days or indeed by the institutions that produced them. As far as the humanities is concerned at least, I think it is pretty generally recognized that what is taught and learned above all at "elite institutions" is utterly substanceless and often borderline insane. I was talking to two students from the supposedly elite "Sciences Po" in Paris the other day who literally believed that biological sex was a social construction - and of course they were only two among millions.

You seem either too poorly educated or just too downright stupid to be able to make judgments of this sort, easy as they are to make on all the evidence. At one point you mentioned that one of the things that impressed you about your supposed "new elite" was that they "know Continental Philosophy". Do you actually know enough about "Continental Philosophy" to be aware of what a farrago of empty nonsense it is? Do you really believe that having piddled about for a few years in the trivial whimsical texts of a Derrida or the speciously interesting but documentarily completely unsubstantiated pseudo-history of a Foucault makes you "educated"?

>>14310916
She even admits the classics are excellent for learning how to read as an adult. What are you in school for if not that?

>>14313335
READ what I said, before you ask me to "refute" it.
My claim was not that your little thumbnail sketch of medieval/early modern social history was substantially WRONG, just that there was nothing in it that anyone over the age of 12 shouldn't know already.

The fact that you feel you have to explain this kind of stuff to /lit/ users means either that /lit/ users are barely literate children or that you are a vain, self-regarding cunt who takes us to be such.

>>14313389
I never said that it impressed me, I said that it was present. Of course the very rich aren't going to be spending the time actually reading and dissecting all this material, especially when they're wealthy and have many other ways to spend their time. I meant simply that diversity pandering would ultimately only serve to further disadvantage minorities. Sure some rich kid may only be able to name a dozen renaissance artists, have only a very superficial understanding of philosophy. But it was still present, you may have many intellectual criticism of Edward Gibbons History of the Decline of the Roman Empire, or you may think knowing what the Bayeaux tapestry is, is very basic and not impressive at all. The point isn't that these things have any real substance, the point is more that knowing about them, knowing who Aristotle was, knowing who Kant was, provide you with a cultural cache that improves your opportunities in the world. Not a lot, they won't just open up an internship at GS, but they are all dog whistles to your social circle. By kneecapping public education you are only creating a further cultural rift between rich and poor.

>>14312009
they made me read the entire hunger games trilogy at my school.

>>14313420
>The fact that you feel you have to explain this kind of stuff to /lit/ users means either that /lit/ users are barely literate
Are you new?

>>14313447
I'm sorry, but I'm very rapidly losing what (very) little faith I might originally have had in your capacity to pass any sort of useful judgments in these matters. This is due to little details that might seem petty to some kids reading this but that are actually pretty telling. You clearly weren't exaggerating when you said that you yourself lacked a proper basic education because you keep making little substantial errors in everything you type that betray you as someone who is indeed in no position to judge whether someone else is educated or not.

We are both, I think, banging these posts off at the speed you'd bang off SMSs at but I note that you are the only one of the two of us who is making blunders like calling Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire "History of the Decline of the Roman Empire" or the Bayeux Tapestry the "Bayeaux" Tapestry.
In this light, it seems to me that you shouldn't be trying to offer characterizations of what a non-substantial "cultural cache" (and I think you were trying to write "cachet" there, by the way) can and cannot get you in the world. You clearly have nothing culturally SUBSTANTIAL in your own experience that you could compare the "non-substantial" to.

>>14313522
No.
Are you capable of actually making a point?

>>14313389
not him but what is your standard for "educated" ?

>>14313527
By the way: a professional art dealer who can't write "Bayeux Tapestry" correctly?
Come clean, kid. Which branch of WendyBurger do you actually work at?

>>14313527
You seem to be calling me out for intellectual posturing by pointing out my multitude of typos and stylistic errors (I am sure that it may be typical to call it the decline and fall of the roman empire but the edition I possess literally says 'history of the decline and falll'), while (seemingly intentionally) ignoring my more salient point. Namely that eliminating classical western texts from public school curricula will only further disadvantage students in an increasingly stratified climate. You seem to somehow delight in tearing down a face you believe I am maintaining of my some erudite member of the intelligentsia trying to 'LARP' on 4chan, which is not the case.

>>14313548
If you're not me or this guy you're a pleb.

>>14313573
*facade, FYI I have been phoneposting this entire time.

>>14313534
The point, which I thought was implied, is that /lit/ is, in fact, mostly frequented by illiterates.

>>14313580
(you)

>>14313573
>>14313581
>>14313527
Interestingly our very exchange is almost proof of my point, you have an almost sneering condescension towards me on account of what are (by your own admission) petty errors because they reveal to you my class and social standing. This is precisely the problem that would continue to be exacerbated as educational systems decline, without a well rounded education in European culture you are simply hopelessly disadvantaged in the modern world. As for being a professional art dealer, at no point did I insinuate that I was some high roller, I sell small works for maybe 2-3k out of a shop in Normandy. I only encounter rich people because the world of old masters is so small you inevitably encounter them at trade events and it is not atypical to end up having drinks at an after party where the net worth is several magnitudes greater than your own. The art market is also one of the most eclectic, virtually anyone can get into it at any age, since often it relies a lot more on administration than anything else. You just need a good list of regular buyers and a list of experts to validate works for (relatively) small sums. I know a guy who sold a Durer he picked up in a garage sale, he got phenomenally lucky but it was a part time hobby for him.

>>14313573
I wasn't even aware that you were making that argument and now I know that you are it doesn't particularly interest me. I don't accept its terms. I don't like the use of a phrase like "disadvantage people" because it seems to imply some idea of an inherent human equality that will reassert itself as a "rest position" wherever people cease to be artificially "disadvantaged".
Was it you who told me to "read and try to understand" a passage from "Beyond Good and Evil"?
"Read and try to understand" this, one of the best ones:
It cannot be effaced from a man's soul what his ancestors have preferably and most constantly done: whether they were perhaps diligent economizers attached to a desk and a cash-box, modest and citizen-like in their desires, modest also in their virtues; or whether they were accustomed to commanding from morning till night, fond of rude pleasures and probably of still ruder duties and responsibilities; or whether, finally, at one time or another, they have sacrificed old privileges of birth and possession, in order to live wholly for their faith—for their "God,"—as men of an inexorable and sensitive conscience, which blushes at every compromise. It is quite impossible for a man NOT to have the qualities and predilections of his parents and ancestors in his constitution, whatever appearances may suggest to the contrary. This is the problem of race. Granted that one knows something of the parents, it is admissible to draw a conclusion about the child: any kind of offensive incontinence, any kind of sordid envy, or of clumsy self-vaunting—the three things which together have constituted the genuine plebeian type in all times—such must pass over to the child, as surely as bad blood; and with the help of the best education and culture one will only succeed in DECEIVING with regard to such heredity.—And what else does education and culture try to do nowadays! In our very democratic, or rather, very plebeian age, "education" and "culture" MUST be essentially the art of deceiving—deceiving with regard to origin, with regard to the inherited plebeianism in body and soul. An educator who nowadays preached truthfulness above everything else, and called out constantly to his pupils: "Be true! Be natural! Show yourselves as you are!"—even such a virtuous and sincere ass would learn in a short time to have recourse to the FURCA of Horace, NATURAM EXPELLERE: with what results? "Plebeianism" USQUE RECURRET

>>14313624
>The art market is also one of the most eclectic, virtually anyone can get into it at any age, since often it relies a lot more on administration than anything else.
I’m an Ivy League student who lives in NYC. How do I get in? I’m serious

>>14313624
I don't think the errors are "petty".
Missing out the word "Decline" when alluding to Gibbon's great work implies a lot more about a person than just that he read a bad edition of Gibbon. The phrase "Decline and Fall" is one of those phrases that really should be immovably lodged in any educated Anglophone's mind. Any one of several works besides Gibbon's - such as Waugh's novel of the same name - should have lodged it in yours and if it isnt so lodged that implies you haven't read any of them.

>>14313640
Start buying art. In the beginning maybe just go to trade shows and soak in the culture, it will help massively if you have an 'in', for me it was a family friend who works as a photographer for art catalogues published by christies, he put me in touch with an art restorer, I spent maybe a year just helping that guy out all the time and trying to understand the mechanics. But at its basic the art market is like any other market but vastly more relaxed, getting into auction houses is very tricky so its better to cultivate buyers, lots of hand shaking and ass kissing in the beginning. Ultimately find a niche and work on that, I spent my first year buying and selling Limoges icons for someone.
>>14313693
You yourself describe them as being petty to an outward observer, again reinforcing my point that beyond just aptitude, cultural context clues impact your perception. If you already have such disdain for me, imagine the magnitude some future student whos never even heard of Aristotle or Democritus will face. Both people that when I went to high school 15 years ago were taught. All this European iconoclasm is just a self imposed handicap. You have at no point ever actually refuted my points instead just engaging in a slightly more eloquent form of 'lmao what a pleb'

>>14310916
The problem is that the only minority written texts these people will accept are ones which "portray their ethnic identities and struggles" which just makes the children more ethnically polarised. This already happens in my country NZ where high schoolers are forced to read Maori writers and fucking hates Maoris and Maori literature as a result because school associates them with the "muh bad huwite colonisers" viewpoint.

>>14313414
They're babies and they need to be coddled instead of reading big boy texts they can't comprehend.

>>14313638
This is actually an incoherent philosophy to subscribe to, where then did the elite attain their status if not from education? Or do you actually believe in some metaphysical 'aristocratic' soul that inhabits the body. Let us imagine we follow this through, if every man has the qualities and predilections of his ancestors where did he ancestors get them from? Did God make them? It is quite clearly due to material circumstance, with each generation each individual will have some aspect of randomness inform their material condition, some will attain great fortunes, some smaller ones, and others will perish penniless, then some will spend their fortunes and others will invest and cultivate it in their children. Eventually you compound those results and some people come from 500 years of increasingly better rewards due to their material circumstance. There is nothing objectively good or bad, but as a society we decide how we see our future. If we follow a caste like system that wilfully ignores the material conditions that birthed it and affirms it as some 'spiritual' condition that may ultimately impede our collective achievements, or we seek to maximise our potential output by investing in a stronger educational system. These are not really point of debate they are demonstrable under any empirical evaluation, literacy improves with better education systems, income inequality diminishes, lifespans increase. Calling education deceptive is in itself a deception of the highest order, who can say which qualities are natural to a man and which are affectations? Who is arrogant and self righteous enough to claim they have a balance which can weigh a soul?

>>14313527
Based reply

>>14311518
Thiongo is based

>>14313527
WORLDSTAR

>>14313786
>These are not really point of debate they are demonstrable under any empirical evaluation, literacy improves with better education systems, income inequality diminishes, lifespans increase.
I don't think that's what the guy you replied to is going for.

Maybe if spics and niggers ever wrote anything of value we would be teaching those books.

>>14313896
Regardless his answer was illogical, the OP I replied to was asking for a coherent argument for a Eurocentric education, I explained that a Eurocentric education is maximally beneficial to its recipient, irrespective of their social class or background.
As far as I'm concerned I demonstrated that point logically. Whether giving your average person a leg up is good or not is subjective.

>>14311028
this.
>if the character isn't the exact same age, race, gender, personality, college major, and shoesize as me, i can't relate to them!
people like that don't deserve to be taught how to read.

>>14311314
>>14311904
>>14312166
>>14313911

>>14311314
this is what 3x a semester holocaust education did for me. alright, we can watch yet another movie about juice suffering in holocoasters for the 37th time, but i'm going to be cheering for hitler. your move, teachin' dude.
>>14311878
akshully. Japanese /lit/ is also pretty based. You're 90% right. I mean, I'd read say, african literature, if there were any and it was good. But there's just not, unless Camus really counts. They can scream "stop reading whyte males" until the sun goes down, but that isn't going to leave you with much of god damned anything left to read.

If sjw want people to read writers "of color", then the prerequisite is that writers "of color" need to fucking write something worth reading. the whole thing is absurd to begin with. As someone else mentioned, you're calling "white" and lumping all in Irish, Italians, Greeks, British, Russians, Swedes, French, etc. Imagine if you failed to differentiate between say, Chinese and Tibetans, and you just called them asians. Oh, wait, they literally already do that. sjw need to learn geography a bit tbqfh. The racial groups by arbitrary skintone, or history-blind lumping together of EG north africans with sub saharan africans and pretending they have 100% the same culture is not only ridiculous but it's pretty damned ignorant. *shrug* An Algierian has much more in common with a Frenchman or an Italian than they do with a Kenyan or Nigerian. But if the sjw couldn't select from a tidy shortlist of privilege point boxes it would be just too hard for them I guess. Not like, say, judging things based on individual merit is possible. No, you need a checklist.

>>14311002
The primary Catholic educators, the Jesuits, have used a primary classics based curriculum from the inception of the Ratio Studiorum. Aristotle and Cicero especially. However, this isn't really an argument in favor of facile diversification of education. Rather it should point out that the foremost educators of history emphasized diversity within cultural boundaries. Aristotle and Cicero were pagan, one Greek and one Roman, yet a Catholic educational institution founded by Spaniards in France and approved by an Italian pope embraced them. That is an immense amount of diversity in a single organization and a single pedagogical method, yet today we would categorize them under the anachronistic label of "white." It's a useless category that signifies nothing

>>14310916
the pages of a newspaper have the print divided into columns.
the pages of a book are taller than they are wide.
the reasons for these are obvious to anybody capable of thinking above the level of a brain-dead fucking orangutan.

>>14313718
>Start buying art
Anon I’m broke. How much money do I need to start buying art? What are some cheap markets/promising niches to get into? Can I just go to Christie’s and talk to the old ladies there and then ask them how to get involved in the business or something?

>>14314412
>Christie’s and talk to the old ladies
Anon...Christie’s is an office in Rockefeller centre full of people wearing suits selling paintings for tens, if not hundreds of millions...

>>14311314
>they're just making it cooler and cooler to be racist the more they try to force nigger dick down the kids throats

this

>>14314479
I’ve been there before faggot. I’m talking about the people directly on the floor, which are old ladies

>>14311002
>only White literature made sense in a White society
All the white authors they're teaching are just as relatable to a white teenager as a black or asian one, which is to say not at all.

>>14311002
>She has a point, but don't expect any good faith replies.
>Having an aircraft of only White technology made sense in a White society, but now America is no longer a White society it makes no sense to cling to that. From now on we will fly with only Mexican and indigenous technology and force everyone who wants to fly to have to use it. For example in Europe they don't teach only Hebraic literature, even though for a long time Europe was 100% ruled by Globalist Jews

>>14312032
Brown sub humans can't compete and no one really expects them to, so white liberals just encourage them to bully their way in with this type on argument

>ethnic activists using the jargon of leftism to push an ethnocentric agenda
white left will never see the truth, thankfully they're excusing themselves from the gene pool as we speak

>>14310916
The problem is by diversity they never mean Cervantes and Proust and Pushkin, or Abe or Mishima, but always some mediocre idiot propped up by their dark skin.

>>14310916
I wonder when was the chronological tipping point in the 00's where "white male" became an insult instead of a descriptor.

>>14315454

w..what? Dude spanish, russians and french aren't minorities or under-represented. They've been ruling the world for 1000+ years. Same with japanese, it's OUR TIME white boy.

>>14313195
>It’s a matter of conscience not efficacy
Read Richardson's Confrontational Politics.

>>14311120
/thread

Art is not for everyone.

>>14315435
They multiply via indoctrination, not reproduction.

>>14315735
i suspect there is a genetic basis to it, it's called WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic)

>>14311896
>And how could there even be a "common good"! That expression contradicts itself: what can be common always has only little value.
As if human sapience itself were not so uncommon at scale that the perceptive abilities of any individual could be considered a "common" good.

>>14310916
why does /lit/ keep getting btfo

Nogs have no literature

>>14315491

2008 when we elected onegro. Completely delegitimized white America in the eyes of the world

>>14313420
>just that there was nothing in it that anyone over the age of 12 shouldn't know already.

Expecting any school in somewhere like, say Australia, to teach something like this, to anyone, of any age, is really fucking funny. Like, aristocracy is just a word that means pompous, unnecessarily rich, white men, the kind who did bad things to guys with darker skin. That is the actual extent to which any social understanding of class is taught.

>>14311120
The problem is you assume those with money are not plebs and those who are poor are necessarily plebs, a comforting thought but very far from the truth. If you spend any time around rich people you’ll realise many of them are plebs and many very smart people are very poor.