/lit/ - Literature

Jehovah's Witlesses.

Mashallah I know just the religion for you, anon...

Islam

>>14243654
Belive in yourself anon ;-)

>>14243654
Monotheism without the Trinity would just be what Socrates described in his Apology. The Logos and the Holy Spirit are introduced in the New Testament, which is long enough to say what it means.

>>14243662
No. They think yeshua was the arch angel Michael.
>>14243693
>>14243702
No. See verse of the sword (9:5). Prefer Matthew 5:39 etc.
>>14243719
Genesis 2:18 I'm lonely and want a community though :c

>>14243790
What do you mean specifically about the apology? Cant you see that we should be worshipping the creator not any part of (H)is creation? - why is idolatry so hard for Christians to grasp?

>>14243654
Gnosticism?

>>14243654
We call them L A R P E R S

>>14243823
Muslim

>>14243832
Are there gnostic churches?
>>14243942
Why do you say that?
>>14243950
Wtf are you talking about?

>>14244049
oh fuck off

>>14243702
Jesus is the Messiah according to Islam

>>14243654
Mormonism is probably the closest you can get to an extant, significant church.

As an actual Christian, they're retarded about everything except the family.

>>14244087
Mormons also believe in God as anthropomorphic, and that the leader of their church is a Prophet capable of receiving divine revelation to alter their laws.

>>14243654
How can you believe that christ was mere creature, and hold the gospels on such a pedestal, when the language of the trinity is so thoroughly embedded within them?

>>14243702
Judaism?

>>14244066
Whats your problem? Do these questions frighten you? Seriously whats wrong?>>14244142
Jesus was just a good (the best) rabbi. The extant gospels (whatever you read in the book) have obviously been edited to create a powerful institution by and buffer the imperial ideology of rome.
>>14244174
The jews are a specific tribe. I dont want to/ cannot be a jew, nor a Christian (for the reason that its idolatry to worship a created being), nor a muslim for obvious reason previously mentioned and well known.

So what should we call this new church anons?

>>14244225
I mean, yes you can be a Jew, once you convert you are 100% a member of the tribe, and its a sin for another Jew to consider you otherwise. But even when you're not, the laws of Noah apply to you, as all of mankind descends from him. If you're looking for monotheism based on the old testament which rejects Jesus as being the messiah, Im not sure what other faith system / analysis of the old testament you'd go for.

>>14243654
Jefferson's belief system

>>14244225
Church of Pneuma & Logos

>>14244225
eat my turds bro

>>14244049
>Are there gnostic churches?
I don't think so, it's a dead religion. Seems to me that Gnostics are as close as you are going to get to what you are looking for.

>>14244275
Thing is. I dont want to be a jew. I'm thankful to G-d for NOT making me a jew. I embrace the noahide thing. But i just wish there was a community in my area (pretty provincial). Maybe I should just try and set up my own congregation..
>>14244295
I heard he was a closet noahide. Is this true? Did a quick read. Unitarian. Getting closer. Thanks anon.
>>14244490
We'll its not what I'm thinking then. I think i need to actually build a new community here.

>>14243654

Lol what even is the point if all Jesus did was get the high score. To have a bridge between God and man, God and man need to be one.

>>14244607
Is creation separate from the creator?

>>14243654
>cant into yahweh

Pedagogical theodicy is for you

>>14243654
so you like Christianity without Jesus?
islam or judaism
but, why dont you like Jesus?

>>14244849
Its unitarianism technically i think. Yesh was good. Why do christians profane is name with their idolatry is what I'd like to know. Thats what centuries of dogma will do I guess.

>>14244902
but he's God in human form, it's not idolatry

>>14244905
god said there is nothing in creation like him, if he does it take human form then he is contradicting himself

>>14244913
where do God says that?

>>14244919
Qur'an

>>14244924
so why dont you follow islam

>>14244919
somewhere in Numbers. but if that doesn't enough for you, how do you respond to this?

Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

>>14244940
doesn't it is talking about the essence? and not his physical form? also, doesn't genesis tell us that we are created as his image and likeness? God looks like a man, according to genesis, right?

>>14243654
>"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

>>14244972
so, its true because he said it was true?

>>14244934
I do. I'm not him though, and what he says is probably in the Bible somewhere.

>>14244981
Do you contend that He was the wisest who ever lived, and also went around lying about being divine?

>>14244951
Is your likeness a human being? your reflection in the mirror for example

>>14244951
you christians like to twist our scriptures, G-d is clear in this verse, he is not a man or a human being.

>>14244998
in the mirror is the exact me, not my likeness, my likeness would be another man like myself

>>14244905
OP here, yeshua is a created being. This isn't complicated.
>>14244913
I agree G-d wouldn't contradict (H)imself.
>>14244951
Yes. We are in (H)is image.

Just as a side note about islam. The form of prayer (rakat) is the only thing I consider Muhammed to have contributed. I don't take the qu'ran to be divine or a miracle. I can believe that G-d revealed that specific combination of physical movements as the way (H)e wanted us to worship (H)im though.

>>14245021
you must be jewish, Jews pray similar to muslims but they don't prostrate

>>14245021
>OP here, yeshua is a created being. This isn't complicated.
maybe Jesus body was created, but not him, you are not your body man, you are your spirit (
consciousness)

have you read when Jesus came back after death, he had another body? that's why they took so much time to recognize him

your body doesnt matter, in the sense, it's not the real you

1 In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God
and the Word was God.
14 The Word became flesh
and made his home among us.
We have seen his glory,
glory like that of a father’s only son,
full of grace and truth.

>>14245028
Smh. I told you I don't want to be a jew. I cant be a jew. Being a jew isnt a function of what you believe, its a function of the circumstances you were born into. Although i do like jews and wouldn't be sad if I was one.

>>14245007
The mirror image is two-dimensional and it an imperfect reflection, it is not an exact you. I disagree with your interpretation of the meaning of likeness.
Twist your mind to the meanings of the words, anon, don't twist the words to suit yourself.

>>14245043
so you believe in G-d without following any religion ?

>>14245044
i dont get your point, an image in a mirror of myself is not my likeness, we agree
another man likeness is like mine?

>>14245036
Of course John is going to be a polytheist. The romans wouldn't have it any other way. G-d creates our souls too. If its in creation, its created. Simple. Yesh's spirit was in the world at some point, thus it was created. You think the Lord's greatest prophet likes blasphemy and idolatry in his name?

>>14245072
wasn't God in creation too? when he had dinner with his two angels and Abraham? or wasn't God in creation when he was in the furnace of nabucodonosor with Daniel?

>>14245057
The mirror image is what is meant by likeness and the mirror image is not exact.
We are in disagreement on both of these points.

>>14245050
At this point. I could say unitarianism. But religion seems to imply a tradition and unitarianism doesn't have that. Why do you ask? Yourself?

>>14245088
havent you seen someone and say is like watching a mirror? likeness? i mean, what do you think it means with likeness?

>>14245083
Not the whole of G-d imo. Just an angelic like envoy. Abraham wouldn't have lived if he'd seen the Lord i reckon.

>>14245106
so it was God but was not God? weird? do you think it could be his son Jesus maybe? that is God but not the Father? maybe that's why it says in Daniel says:

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

>>14245121
I believe the Lord could create anything (H)e wants. (H)e could cause anything (H)e wants like visions, dreams, voices etc. But Yesh was a man with the soul of a man. A very exceptional one. I take back what I said about a part. In so far as a creation is a part of the creator I'll stand by it.

>>14243654
See in connection with this thread Jefferson's Bible. Thanks to the anon for the guidance.

Peace to all.

>>14243654
>gospel as the highest revelation but doesn't think Yeshua was divine
you cant have both how would that even work when the gospels is clear on the divinity of Jesus, maybe something like arianism

Christ alive, OP, you are obnoxious. Just call him Jesus and quit it with this "G-d" crap. You say you are not a Jew, so quit LARPing as one. What you are describing is essentially Islam sans Muhammad and Westernized Islam is the closest extant Abrahamic religion to what you are describing.

>>14244049
>Are there gnostic churches?
The Ecclesia Gnostica

>>14244562
Well, Im neither a Jew nor a Noahide so I can't tell you what Noahide communities are like. I joined one on facebook and it was a bit weird. But in general I feel like they have a sadly underdeveloped theology, as historically very little study of the Torah covered Noahism.

>>14243654
I recall something called Christism or Jesusism, or something

>>14244225
>created being
begotten not made

>>14244607
Nonsense. The bridge makes them one.

>>14243654
It's tricky, but many already think it, although they say it in a way difficult to understand: "fully man and fully god" is what Catholic theology says.
So Jesus is a man like everyone. Fully God is also true, because that man is living in total communion with God. There's no more God except the God that is Jesus experiencing (that he has become).

>>14245592
You annoyance is your own.
>>14245558
Already addressed that.
>>14246539
The virgin birth is probably a myth. When he says "my father" its clearly metaphorical. We are all G-d's children. The imbecilic literalism of the apostles is contemptible and clearly in my eyes a way of generating their own power system.
>>14246974
A bridge between two pieces of land does not make those pieces of land the same.
>>14247135
If i follow G-d's laws and do good works in (H)is name that doesn't change the fact (H)e created me. It just means I'm a more perfect servant to (H)im. Abraham talked with G-d but he wasn't G-d.
>There's no more God except the God that is Jesus experiencing (that he has become).
Clear demonstration of the pagan pantheism of catholicism.

Christian idolatry is so sad.

>>14243812
>No. See verse of the sword (9:5). Prefer Matthew 5:39 etc.
Islam takes a middle path. there is a right to justice of an OT kind, but forgiveness is recognized as being better. If you can not bear that your brothers killer lives free and unhindered you have a right to pursue him- this is better than letting the fury fester in you. But if you can forgive him that is best.

>>14248424
Just opens the door to breaking "thou shalt not kill." I've addressed my concerns with islam above.

>>14248450
I think it's a question of what is sound morals for a society vs what is sound morals for a seeker

>>14248462
where the religion is to answer to the needs of the society, which will always have a large number of largely uninterested "practitioners", protecting it from degeneration; while providing the seeds for further growth to those who seek it/need it. What's so remarkable about it- all Abrahamitic faith, really- is that it speaks to all levels of understanding at once. As you grow, the books grow with you, as Augustine put it. But they must also speak truth to the needs of the mob. Jesus does sharpen the decrees of the law in a number of ways, but he also states that the law will stand unchanged until the end of time, and that it is right to live according to the teachings of the rabbis. These things coexist, and yet there is no contradition.

>>14248450
its thou shall not murder

>>14248983
that's a pretty big difference
>The imperative to not kill is in the context of unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt.[2]

>>14248983
Dont weaken the interpretation. Compare genesis 9:6 with exodus 20:13. Its "do not shed blood." The ultimate intent is do not destroy. Only the Lord creates and only (H)e should take away. Hence Matt 5:39.

>>14249098
> Genesis 9:6 New International Version (NIV)
“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
>by humans shall their blood be shed;

> Exodus 20:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 “You shall not murder.
>murder

I think your links support his position

>>14249114
I don't think G-d wants us all killing each other.

>>14249114
Genesis 9:6 is a warning. Not a recommendation. Its like muslims, idk, are trying to find a justification for violent religious imperialism.

>>14249140
>Its like muslims, idk, are trying to find a justification for violent religious imperialism.
the Qur'an only allows defensive warfare. Clearly muslims have engaged in more than this, but so has everyone else. war is a fact of human existence, empires fight eachother. there was never a time when the muslims did not border a major christian empire, which was also belligerent. in the modern era I think you'll find it is not the muslims who are on the offensive.
>>14249126
me neither, but I do think he wants us to live in the light of justice.

>>14249149
Muhammed himself employed gurellia tactics by attacking Meccan caravans cutting of vital supplies to ths city. Despicable behaviour as it jeopardises the lives of innocents.
>not on the offensive
Wtf was Islamic state? What is the turkish interference against the Kurdistanis?
>justice
Theres the justice of men and then divine justice. We shouldn't be following our own notions of justice but we should be concerned with our Lord's judgement at the end imo. Also why matt 5:39 is better.

Its disingenuous to project islam as other than a violently evangelistic faith imo.
>So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. [Quran 9:7]
Compare Matthew, chapter 5 again:
Matthew 5:44
"But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you."
Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same?"

The principle is: the Lord loves us ALL and forgives ALL. So should we. If we make our forgiveness conditional were aren't being as holy as we could be, qua Leviticus 19:2.

The closest thing might be Ebionite jewish christianity or another sect of the original jewish christian community
When you look at the early christ hymn in romans and the one in Acts it looks like they believed that jesus was ascended to the status of god's son with the resurrection. This may seem very divine but look at 2 Samuel where god calls David his son again in an adoptive sense.
This might be the closest real historical religion that matches what you want.

>>14243832
Gnostics thought the Christ was sent from the true god and was extremely divine. Some gnostics said that there were two jesus, jesus and The Christ and since The Christ cant be hurt or die it leaves jesus during the crucifiction and floats into the sky laughing (eloi eloi lama sabachtani). Some gnostics thought jesus's physical body was an illusion and if he walked on a sandy beech wouldnt leave footprints. Similar o thers said he swapped his body before the resurrection all cause the idea of the divine Christ dying seemed insane. Some thought he grew taller than a mountain during the resurrection. A lot of these ideas were attributed to Peter.
tldr gnostic Jesus is very divine

>>14248372
>Christian idolatry is so sad.
Amen

>>14244989
I'm suggesting that he spoke over the heads of his apostles and they used their mundane interpretation to curry favour with rome.

>>14243654
It appears messianic judaism would also fit perhaps.

>>14249366
The actions of the Turks and even IS are easily explicable in practical terms.

The real objection to the "defensive war" claim is that Mohammed himself engaged in aggressive warfare and his excuses are clearly just that.

>>14243654
Zoroastrianism