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14169537 No.14169537 [Reply] [Original]

Thread to discuss and engage in dialectic regarding Presocratic, Pythagorean, Socratic, Platonic, Aristotelian, and Neoplatonic philosophies and their many medieval, modern, and post-modern heirs...

Abrahamics and perennialists are welcome though urged to stay on topic.

>thread inspo:
https://youtu.be/3ltsSfOZzJI

>east / west dialogue:
https://youtu.be/8HAiTfOSP_w

>orientalisms and (neo)platonic revivals in occidental history:
https://youtu.be/s2HCOuY-EiE

>free platonic writings online:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Taylor%2C%20Thomas%2C%201758-1835

>> No.14169543

>>14169537
Did Aristotle and Plato have a romantic relationship?

>> No.14169560

Bump

>> No.14169562

>>14169537
Does anyone here consider themselves to have a strong, consistent and complete understanding of neoplatonism? I'd like to ask someone knowledgeable the questions I have of it.

>> No.14169640

What causes the entry of the soul into the body? Plotinus seems to imply that the body is created to be receptive to the falling soul when occasion requires but there is also a physical cause for the creation of the body (copulation). Are we to imagine that the machinations of the physical world are to be in exact accordance with the operaratings of the heavens so that a body is always made to receive every soul that descends? Do parents not have free will in deciding when to reproduce and when not to? What then of moral accountability that is asserted by platonists? Alternately if the soul arbitrarily descends into anything that can receive it or is pulled into a body when one is made then isn't reproduction an unjust act as it imprisons further soul in matter? And then aren't the stupid to be more praised than the smart since they have prevented more soul from slipping into the lower? Yet these conclusions are contrary to established wisdom. The questions of where consciousness is located and to what extent we are to treat soul as a quantity I think are related and I'm not too sure I understand them fully.

>> No.14169650

>>14169562
yes
read the first 13 propositions of Proclus' Elements of Theology

>> No.14169653

>>14169640
The body is made in the image of the soul after the soul forgets its original divine identity.

The soul would incarnate initially as a human being but later as animals or plants.

>> No.14169696

>>14169653
Whether transmigration is into nonhuman bodies isn't clear.
It's rather that in our next life we'll become more brute-like or less so, but always human.

>> No.14169703

>>14169696
>>14169653
>"It is usual to inquire how human souls can descend into brute animals. And some indeed think that there are certain similitudes of men to brutes, which they call brutal lives: for it is not possible that a rational essence can become the soul of a brute. But others allow that it may be immediately sent into irrational animals, because all souls are of a similar form; so that they may become wolves and leopards and mollusks. But true reason indeed asserts that the human soul may enter into brutes, yet in such a manner that it may retain its own proper life; the soul riding as it were on and bound by sympathy to the brutal nature. And that this is the only mode of insinuation we have proved by a multitude of arguments, in our Commentaries on the Phædrus. If however it be requisite to remind the reader that this is the opinion of Plato, we may observe that in his Republic he says that the soul of Thersites assumed the nature of an ape, but not the body of an ape; and in the Phædrus that the soul descends into a brutal life, but not into a brutal body. For the life is conjoined to its proper soul. And in this place he says that it 'is changed into a brutal nature.' For a brutal nature is not a brutal body, but a brutal life."

>> No.14169714
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14169714

Who hyped for the coming paperback?

>> No.14169726
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14169726

>>14169714

Also, let me remind you that Iamblichus basically invented the number zero. Few know this.

>> No.14169739
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14169739

A reminder that Thomas Taylor translated neoplatonic works in addition to his translations of Plato and Aristotle.
Like Aristotle's Physics, especially this work which the "Ancient Commentaries" series published in like 6 separate volumes.

>> No.14169745

>>14169653
>The body is made in the image of the soul after the soul forgets its original divine identity.
people believe this in 2019. What if the "soul" is made in origin of the body, and the soul corresponds to the body? What are we to say of the soul being mere "representation" in a world where everything is unique to everything else? The only way I could represent a part of God is if I am part of God, but then, like Spinoza believed, God is no longer "truth"; "being"; a "perfect form", etc. etc. , he is flowing and becoming, which completely obliterates Platonism and it's filthiness.

>> No.14169763

>>14169696
>Whether transmigration is into nonhuman bodies isn't clear.
The "human" isn't some metaphysical form, in fact it doesn't even exist. This is basic biology. I thought this was cleared up in the 18th century?

>> No.14169767

>>14169745
It is psyche that is made in the image of the body, not the soul, according to Uzdavinys.

>> No.14169773

>>14169726
>ineffable ontological principle
lol, nothing doesn't exist. This is literally tautology.

>> No.14169776
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14169776

>>14169739

The best thing about Taylor is that he smuggled the entire Platonic tradition into his footnotes on Plato. No one else has even attempted to do this.

>> No.14169785
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14169785

>>14169726
which also is the nature of Damascius' magnum opus on the Ineffable

>> No.14169787

>>14169767
Then the soul is an obsolete principle.

>> No.14169789

>>14169773
I am not sure that's 'nothing'.

I am sure his principle exists.

>> No.14169794

>>14169773
aah, yes, anglo man, but write that again in koine greek

>> No.14169805

Become Gnostic.

>> No.14169815

>>14169787
How so?

>> No.14169817
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14169817

>>14169805
why do you hate your father?

>> No.14169818

>>14169653
I do quite strongly feel that your post didnt really adress any of the content of mine

>> No.14169826

>>14169818
It is amnesia that causes the entry of the soul into the body.

>> No.14169873

>>14169826
You completely missed the point and responded with only the most simple canned response. What is the prior cause, the physical or this amnesia? Does the physical react to this heavenly operation or viva versa? Both create problems when taken to their conclusions.

>> No.14169896

Did Orpheus receive his doctrine from the blessed gods and imported it to his disciple, who imparted it to Pythagoras, which eventually made its way to Plato? Does it mean that the Platonic philosophy is actually not a man-made philosophy after all, but an account of the structure of reality revealed by the gods?

>> No.14169913
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14169913

>>14169873
>>14169826

>> No.14169918
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14169918

>>14169896
yes

>> No.14169922

>>14169918
Based

>> No.14169982
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14169982

>>14169896

You know it.

Also, praise Aglaophamus.

>> No.14169988

>>14169537
>he starts a Neoplatonism thread
>he uses a painting of Pythagoreanism
What did the OP mean by this?

>> No.14170013

>>14169873
It is heavily implied that the divine is prior to the physical.

Perhaps amnesia leads to the creation of the physical, including the body in the image of the soul.

>> No.14170030
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14170030

>>14169640
Not the complete answer.

>> No.14170043

>>14169988
What did you mean by this?

>> No.14170081
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14170081

How does this make you feel?

>> No.14170095
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14170095

>>14170081

Also related.

>> No.14170131

>>14169982
Fuck off Megillus.

>> No.14170142

I see /lit/ is blooming with Neoplatonism, Guenon, and Advaita, threads.

I’m so (dare I say it?) glad!

>> No.14170148

>>14170081
Interesting!
Is jinn the words that he actually used? Or was it daimon?

>> No.14170193

>>14170148

Our source for this stuff is Photius' Bibliotheca. I don't have the Greek in front of me.
Here's an English translation of the passage in question where the word 'demon' is used.

>Read a work by Damascius in four books, the first of which, in 352 chapters, is entitled, On Incredible Events; the second, in 52 chapters, On Incredible Stories of Demons; the third, in 63 chapters, On Incredible Stories of Souls that have appeared after Death; the fourth, in 105 chapters, On Incredible Natures. They all contain impossible, incredible, and clumsily invented tales of wonderful things, foolish and worthy of the impious and godless Damascius, who, while the light of the true religion spread over the world, remained steeped in the thick darkness of idolatry. The style is concise, clear, and agreeable, which is not usually the case in such stories.

>> No.14170200
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14170200

Christianity is Neoplatonism. Just become a Christian.

>> No.14170205

>>14170200
>Abrahamics and perennialists are welcome though urged to stay on topic.

>> No.14170227

>>14170200
this is bait

>> No.14170264

>>14170200
Eat a dick christard

>> No.14170283

>>14170205
>>14170227
>>14170264
Nietzsche said that you utter troglodytes.

>> No.14170329

>>14170283
Nietzsche hated his daddy and by extension the Divine Plato (father of philosophy) and God (allfather).

>> No.14170406

>>14170283
>Neech
>says stupid made-up shit about the cult of Dionysus
>ignores the doctrine of the actual Dionysian mysteries and their connection with the Pythagoreans
>ignores that the historical cult of Dionysus was agaisnt materialism and everything that Neech stands for
>ignores that the Dionysian mysteries was a forerunner of, oh the irony, the more based and mystical aspects of Christianity
Wew

>> No.14170469

>>14170142
No one is having good discussion in this thread though

>> No.14170659

>>14170142
These things don't last long, anon. Enjoy it while it's here.

>> No.14170667

>>14170469
Is there good discussion anywhere here?

>> No.14170790

>>14169640
big Soul stays where it is but through expressed principles of soul reaches into the material world. this happens because Soul is naturally good and wishes to improve the material.

>> No.14170837

>>14170406
>he focuses on the material
>he completely ignores the clear parallels to the philosophical aspects and concepts inherent in Christianity
>he completely ignores the similar concepts of both the trinity and the aspects of the soul as they relate to the forms
>he thinks that early Christians would have not known or studied any of this and that because they aren’t word for word and the rituals are not behavioral copies that means there’s nothing to reset between them
>he Ignores that Plato himself considered himself to be a follower of pythagoras
>he completely ignores the aesthetic history of Christianity, particularly the desert fathers and the monks who eschew all materialism let alone fucking Jesus H. Christ and does not see the parallel
>he’s such a materialist he fundamentally misunderstands Christian dogma
Wew. Lad. Positively Nietzschean.

>> No.14170843

>>14170837
*reset>relate
*aesthetic>ascetic

>> No.14170869
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14170869

so are the One and the Dao and Nirvana different things or what

>> No.14170998

>reads Augustine
IT MAKES SENSE NOW

>> No.14171002

>>14170869
Switch Nirvana with Buddha-nature and you're good enough

>> No.14171128

>>14169805
Reading The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagel now.

>> No.14171489

>>14171128
Good and worthwhile

>> No.14171509

>>14170998
Augustine sold out because his mom guilt tripped him.

>> No.14171521

>>14170869
Language games...

>> No.14171554

>>14169537
What are some good criticisms of neoplatonism

>> No.14171609

>>14170200
he has a point though

>> No.14171672

>>14170869
Oneness just means there is no separation.
Dao points to the flowing of life.
Nirvana is that place where nothing changes.

>Everything is impermanent, but there is truth,
>You and I are not two, not one:
>Only your stupid mind is non-stop.
>Already alive in the Prajna ship.

>> No.14171695

>>14171554
Sorts of experiences like divinely inspired madness involved in Neo-Platonic philosophy might be mal-adaptive in the contemporary world.

If you don't share their soteriological goals the philosophy might seem weaker as a matter of finding and fulfilling the good life.

>> No.14171784

>>14171695
>If you don't share their soteriological goals
Yeah i dont really problematize materialism, nor that I think we should strive for it either, nevertheless what form of politics a neoplatonist would follow? Plato's philosopher king or disregard politics altogether

>> No.14171972

>>14171784
Peripateticism as the exoteric dimension of neoplatonism might be a better goal for those seeking eudaimonia

>> No.14171990

>>14169543
No.

>> No.14172203

>>14169805
Non-Sethian Gnostic schools are the only ones worth reading

>>14169896
Yes, Orpheus, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Plotinus are all Prophets sent by God.
The difference is, that unlike Christianity and Sethian Gnosticism, Neoplatonism hasn't been utterly corrupted by a Pharisaical church

>>14170142
Based

>>14170200
Kill yourself

>>14170283
Nietzsche said regular Platonsim was the same as Christianity, he never commented on Neoplatonism, as far as I know

>> No.14172557

>>14169826
ftp://neuroky.me/Hyperborean%20Worldview/Perennialism/A.%20K.%20Coomaraswamy/Coomaraswamy,%20A.K.%20-%20Metaphysics%20(Bollingen%20series),%20Recollection,%20Indian%20and%20Platonic%20(no%20OCR).pdf

>> No.14172667

>>14171784
Read Themistius, Libanius, and, Julian.

>> No.14172693

>>14171554
Plotinus can't seem to make up his mind whether the ultimate/highest goal is to attain a complete union and identity with the One without any separation or alienation remaining or whether the soul is supposed to return to the realm of Ideas and abide there forever contemplating the One in a quasi-heaven. At times in the Enneads he writes in favor of both of these options and never really makes clear what he thinks is the ultimate aim.

>> No.14172763

>>14172693
The One forever contemplates itself. Thats all I can say. Some people will understand, many will not

>> No.14172838

>>14172693
Different aims for different souls.
It isn't so explicit in Plotinus but it is later, not even union is "forever", after an eternity and no time at all we'll descend again. No matter how high we go. These who once more descend are the sages and great poets, composers, and leaders of history.

>> No.14172870

>>14172838
To add:it is said that Aristotle is Noetic soul, for he thought Being itself was the highest, ignorant of the One. Proclus was a henadic soul, for he thought the One was the summit of a totally rigid hierarchy and that the Great chain of being was all that is.
Plotinus was prophetic for he saw beyond he could describe properly, thereby sometimes writing paradoxically, touching the Ineffable. Iamblichus did the same in multiplying the One.

>> No.14172923

>>14169537
Any thoughts as to why Plotinus remained silent on Christianity? He could have praised or attacked it (like Porphyry) but we have nothing. Have his texts been tampered with?

>> No.14172934

jesus why the fuck would you bother reading a book if you are just going to slur your stupid bitch voice through the whole thing

>> No.14172957

>>14172923
Plotinus didnt realise there was a difference between Sethian Gnostics and "Orthodox" Christianity, since Sethians didnt actually refer to themselves as Gnostic, they just referred to themselves as "christian".
But he would have made similar arguments to what Porphyry said

>> No.14172967

>>14169537
>Thomas McEvilley The Shape of Ancient Thought
Quick search shows that he doesn't believe in the Aryan invasion/migration theory. This disqualifies him completely.

>> No.14172970

>>14172923
But yes, if he did make any criticisms against the orthodoxy, all of his work would have been destroyed by the church like Porphyry's was. The fact that the enneads still exist makes me believe that there was never any criticism of orthodox christcuckery in them

>> No.14173269

>>14172923
He attacked Gnosticism. Maybe he didn’t see a difference between Gnosticism and early Christianity. (Because pro tip: there hardly was one.)

>> No.14173335

>>14170869
dao is at best the world soul

>> No.14173363

>>14169543
If by romantic relationship you mean that Plato ravaged Aristotle's little sugary ass like he was a Persian and it was Athen's agorà, Yes.

>> No.14173371

>>14173269
Your fewble attempts go against 100% of recognized history of the Church and you couldn't have been more wrong If you wrote "the battle of little big horn".

>> No.14173417

>>14169543
They both loathed homosexuality

>> No.14173424

>>14173371
Ok christcuck

>> No.14173848

It is absolutely criminal that no one is reading Edward P. Butler's work on Neoplatonism.

https://henadology.wordpress.com/philosophy/

This stuff is the future. The man has convinced me Gods exist.

>> No.14173866

>>14172967

Don't be foolish. It's still a good book.

>> No.14173870
File: 118 KB, 1000x563, 5hEiAKB8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14173870

>>14173848

I like that he compiles his material in inexpensive books. More Internet authors should do this.

>> No.14173877

>>14173870
Nice, I'm glad I'm not the only one reading him.

>> No.14173884

>>14173424
I'm glad that you acknowledged your absolute intellectual and moral inferiority.

>> No.14174202

>>14173884
I'm glad you've revealed your inferiority complex.

>> No.14174208

>>14173417
Didn't Socrates enjoy it though?

>> No.14174417
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14174417

>>14173848
Weird ads lol

>> No.14174795

>>14173866
Not so sure. Westerns who object to the Aryan theory are 99,9% of the time just self-hating whites. If you genuinely tell me that the book isn't just about how the Greeks was taught by the superior Indians and isn't just another way of saying "you didn't build that wh*teoid!" and shieeet then I might read it.

>> No.14174918

>>14174795

I own the book and read it some years ago. It's all over the place, and makes many mistakes, but the scattershot approach is part of its appeal. The main thrust of the book is exposing parallels between Greek and the Indian philosophy. In this, it succeeds. Not a page goes by without the surfacing of some interesting connection.

>> No.14175006

>>14172967
He talks about proto-indo europeans in the linked video

>> No.14175046
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14175046

>> No.14175060

Is Berthold of Moosburg the most underrated Neoplatonist of all time?

>> No.14175064

>>14172967
lmao

>> No.14175148

Reminder to not read MacKenna's translation.

>> No.14175471

>>14169640

Consider bilateral "causality", from the parents' side it is evil, but from one's own side it is good.

>> No.14175500

>>14171784
The roots of Platonism are in mystery cults as opposed to state cults in Hellenistic religion.

They were actively striving to reduce the amount of times they had to incarnate, or attain to a dis-incarnate afterlife.

>> No.14175553

any literature on the corruption of Platonism / Greek thought in Christianity? Looking for a book that specifies the main differences between the two and explains the decay of Hellenic culture

>> No.14175590

>>14175553
>any literature on the corruption of Platonism / Greek thought in Christianity?

You might look into what Dionysius the Areopagite left out in his writing. He's one of the main channels through which Platonism got absorbed by Christianity. I wouldn't call it a corruption though.

>> No.14176330

>>14175590
Dionsysius the Areopagite is the same Dionysius in Acts.

>> No.14176363

>>14175553
Well seeing how Christianity clearly does not fit at all with Greek thought and Platonism should be enough for you.

Just read Plato and the Neo-Platonists and then read the Bible. You'd be surprised how far down they would place YHWH and how laughable they would think the Christians are when they start talking about how this God is also pUrE aCt of acTuAlITY and/or the One.

>> No.14176393

>>14169873
It’s cooming that caused the amnesia. When a man cooms inside his wife’s vageen it causes the soul of the coming babykin to have temporary amnesia. Cooming is the devil because it causes more souls to be materialized. Living not to coom is the only just thing.

>> No.14177590

can neoplatonism and kant be reconciled?

>> No.14177648

>>14177590
No, Kant has to be discarded if you want to proceed into the realm of divine wisdom

>> No.14177706

>>14177648
gay

>> No.14177971

What's /lit/ opinion on Philo?

>> No.14177986

>>14177706
Kantism leads to a denial of the validity of Neoplatonic theurgy and of the possibility of the intellectual intuition used by Neoplatonics in deducing their metaphysics.

>> No.14178687
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14178687

Let us pray for the return of another Philosopher King.

>> No.14178881

>>14169537
Shit. I watched the first video in the OP yesterday, and today it's private and I can't watch it anymore...
Did somebody leave negative comments or did the influx of views spook the uploader?

>> No.14178922

How do forms manifest (connect) in reality if they exist in a perfect state outside the world ?

>> No.14178942

>>14173417
t. never read a single work of Plato's

>> No.14179042

>>14178922
They exist more "within" the world, in the mind of the Demiurge. like Panentheism. Everything is God, but the God is also above everything

>> No.14179188

>>14178922
the divided line
The true highest forms are more like laws of existence and the paradigms of genus, or like modern set theory.
>Unlikeness, likeness, and mixed.
The form of "horse" is better known as 'morphe'; since it is a sub-sub-sub-substrate of an eternal form.
There's not a form of the cup, to use the meme, rather a cup has the efficient cause of two composed forms that are also the forms of handles and lakes. Like an enclosed semicircular container is the paradigm of a cup. But this paradigm is derived from the ideas of containment and enclosure and perhaps "the cave", lakes being a type of cave.

This was a tl;dr, all the forms are related and, in the highest actuality, all one.

>> No.14179201
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14179201

>>14179188
as elucidated in Plato's Sophist and Statesman

>> No.14179385
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14179385

>> No.14179490

>>14179385
Christards are reaching maximum cope levels

>> No.14179504
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14179504

>>14179490
>christard

>> No.14179507

>>14176363
bUt AnOn, JeSuS iS tHe WaY, tHe TrUtH, aNd ThE LiFe! A HiStoRicAlLy-cRuciFied RaBbi Is ThE PuRe AcT oF AcTuAliTy! YahWeh mIgHt deMand GoAT SaCrIFIcEs, sURe, BuT He (and JEsuS) iS StiLL tHe OnE!

>> No.14179517

>>14169537
more like neoplantationists LMAO!!!

>> No.14179526
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14179526

>YOU MISTOOK THE STARS REFLECTED IN A POND FOR THE NIGHT SKY

>> No.14180365

>>14178881
Damn. She had a lot of other good content too. Shame on y'all.

>> No.14180529

>>14177590
Kant himself would say no (tho one can read certain platonisms into him) but fitche and schelling and hegel and schopenhauer try to backdoor mysticism into the system to varying degrees of success.

>> No.14181336
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14181336

>>14179385
>shroom dealer
>mfw catholic tradition is nothing but hysteria, sexual perversion, impressionist word salad, ritual cannibalism, and they have the gall to question others' sobriety

>> No.14182827

>>14181336
Pkd next bro

>> No.14182838

>>14169537
I've been working on translating a large chunk of Plotinus' Enneads for a few years AMA

>> No.14182867

>>14169537
William James says platonists are just soft skinned intellectuals who are afraid of chaos

>> No.14182955
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14182955

>*does nothing to block your path and allows your going under*
Heh, nothing personal

>> No.14183011

>>14182838
Favorite passages?

>> No.14183084

>>14182838
What do you think of Thomas Taylor and what books do you recommend to know Neoplatonic thought?

>> No.14183154

>>14183011
On Beauty brings me to tears. It was the first passage I ever translated and I continue to visit it.

>>14183084
Never read Taylor. Your best place to begin is with Plato. I recommend the Timaeus, the Parmenides. Read the Timaeus and just learn to actually appreciate the beauty of the story. Read the Parmenides and pay attention to how the gymnastic is done. Take notes if you have to-- though it isn't necessary -- don't worry about the content of the argument as much as how it goes.

If you are really set on using secondary sources I can really only recommend Stephen R. L. Clark's Plotinus. Camus wrote his dissertation on christian mystcisim and metaphysics but it is not very good. Fun to read. Hegel's Philosophy of History lectures also help show the Alexandrian school's place in history but I think he fails utterly to grasp Neoplatonic thought. He is more interested in coopting the work like most Christians.

>>14182867
William James also failed to understand that the mystical path is not a thing that is walked alone. Mystical experiences hold true for communities with teaches and are not pure independent events. I don't think he has the definite view of Platonism.

>> No.14183215

>>14170998
What went wrong with this breast-fixated, poetry-loathing lad?

>> No.14183223

>>14171554
Plotinus became a stranger in his own body later on. Early Plotinus > late, switch to Iamblichus to remedy such

Also, it's kind of impossible to "be a gnostic" or to "be a neoplatonist" in some ways b/ there's not collective institutional intersubjectivity at play feeding into the human spirit deliverance unto the divine a la Kant (objectivity is just, like, what a bunch of people happen to assent to dude).

For it's metaphorical kind of systematization it gets things right I guess. It'd probably be more productive to break Neoplatonism down and pour into postmodern (post-secular?) moulds.

>> No.14183405

>>14183154
Are you a Christian, if so, name one Christian author. What is your opinion of the International Society for Neoplatonic Studies?

>> No.14183570

as some here may know, the neoplatonists had a huge influence upon some arteries of christian theology. namely, the stratification of higher-order beings (angels) and the hierarchy of roles in the church...with sacraments mitigating the gap between the corporeal and incorporeal realms. particularly iamblicus and plotinus.

>> No.14183580

>>14179504
He is only criticising people who think that the Demiurge is evil though.

Hermetics are a type of Gnostic and they dont think Yaldabaoth is evil...

>> No.14183582

>>14183580
I think that this has been said many times on the board already, but whenever someone hears the word "Gnostic" they think of Sethianism.

Neoplatonism, ironically, is a form of Gnosticism like Hermeticism and Valentinianism

>> No.14183654

>>14183582
Reverse that.
Hermeticism and Platonism predate gnosticism. Gnostics no matter who, are a corruption of tradition. "Neoplatonism" is a recent Christian term, they were only going back, away from middle platonist, stoic, peripatetic, skeptic, and "gnostic" confusion.

>> No.14183676

>>14183654
Omg please explain this to /x

>> No.14183702

>>14183676
>Neoplatonism is the only coherent interpretation of plato, notwithstanding the fact that all of the Scholarchs were divinely inspired through contemplative henosis.

>> No.14183743

>>14183654
>>14183676
I think people are getting too hung up on the semantics of the word "Gnosticism". remember in the second/3rd centuries there were no groups that actually identified as "Gnostics", thats just a word that scholars use to define a number of groups that believed in the acquisition of a type of hidden knowledge.

Sethian groups (and the orthodox church) corrupted the original teachings of Jesus and Yahya, who were Hermetic sages, and part of the Essenes (Hermetic Jews). But their esoteric teachings can still be found in Valentinian texts like the Tripartite Tractate, and other early texts like the Gospel of Thomas, and earlier texts from the Essenes in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Mandean Book of John.
Theres nothing in Valentinian Gnosticism or the Dead Sea Scrolls that actually opposes Hermeticism or Neoplatonism. Its just the "Le Sad Demiurge" meme that the Sethians somehow came up with, that makes everyone hate Gnosticism.

Scholars have made a huge mess of everything by using the label "Gnosticism" for every early first/second century esoteric movement

>> No.14183927

>>14183743
>uses the same terms
>not related
>muh ENTIRETY

>> No.14183935

>>14183743
Gnostics are the ones who disregard all coherence and grab for all and every text as their own, since
>ayy lmao it's all allegorical and only my sect know the correct reading.

>> No.14183984

>>14176330
Person, yes.
The writings left behind? No.

>> No.14183988

>>14183935
Alright tell me then, how do you define someone who is "Gnostic" and someone who isnt?

>> No.14184003

>>14176363
>seeing how Christianity clearly does not fit at all with Greek thought and Platonism
Read Plato, Plotinus, and any other random Neoplatonist Commentary, like Damascius commentary on Phaedo. Then read Augustine, the Cappadocian Fathers, Pseudo-Dionysius, and Maximus the Confessor; these men are the most influential Church Doctors concerning Christian Doctrine (protestantism isn't Christianity). You'll find that it is almost the same system, a total rip off.

>> No.14184033

>>14172967
He agreed with the hypotheses when his book came out in 2001. He touched on the motivated reasoning of Indian nationalists behind denying the aryan invasion and how evidence most strongly points to it. This was all even before we had the pretty much conclusive evidence by David Reich 's genetic research.

>> No.14184037
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14184037

>>14183988
If they believe christ was a God-man, and that creation was some form of mistake or evil, or that even matter is inherently evil. Sure this might put some of Plotinus tractates 'gnostical' but Plotinus wrote for over 20 years and was very ill later in life, while he might casually describe matter as evil: in Plotinus system, Evil is solely a result from the individual soul's choices, matter here taking a secondary role (the drug of the addict). It was mythically expounded in the myth of Narcissus. Matter is a pond, the bottom of THE FULLY GOOD hierarchy of reality, like water it is formless and thus reflects all the light from God, the soul sees the reflection and for a moment that becomes a life confuses the stars in a pond for a crown.
But even the fall of the soul has a divine purpose, one from Necessity. It might not be so nice for you, but in the whole this too is beautiful.

>> No.14184044

>>14169537
What do I read after Plato to get into Neoplatonism
Do I even have to read the entirety of Plato do so

>> No.14184062

>>14184044
According to some neoplatonists one should read Aristotle's Organon before reading Plato.

>> No.14184087
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14184087

>>14184044
You can skip 1 and 2 but that would be a mistake and a loss.

>> No.14184136
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14184136

>>14184037
I can work with that.
I am a Hermetic-Perennialist, but I believe Jesus was a messenger of the same God of Hermes Trismegistus, like all the Prophets. I dont believe he was a literal God in the flesh, thats just a meme made up by the church, but he did embody the Logos, thats what Hermes Trismegistus said is like a "Son" of God.
I dont believe the Demiurge or matter is "evil" per se, but I do believe it is an illusion, like the concept of Maya in the Hindu tradition, not evil in itself, but like Plotinus said, based on the decisions the individual makes regarding it.

I still think there is alot of value in Valentinian texts and Dead Sea Scrolls, even if the Sethians then exaggerated the teachings of Jesus from what they were originally. The Gospel of Thomas is the best preserved text that contains the original "Esoteric" teachings of Jesus and has nothing related to the Demiurge & matter being evil. 1
I am still reading through the Enneads but I see a lot of the same concepts that exist in Heremeticism and Esoteric Christianity

>> No.14184699
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14184699

"I never wrote anything on Plotinus, and admit that I never had the time to study him closely; but I know that there are many similarities to be made with oriental doctrines...Only there is one thing that has always shocked me: this history of states that Plotinus would have attained a certain number of times in his life, and, from which, seem to have left nothing permanent, which is poorly understood from the point of view of initiation; there would have been, in any case, something very incomplete in relation to his realization." - Rene Guenon, letter to Dr.Duby, 14 December 1936, Cairo

>> No.14184752

>>14184699
>and admit that I never had the time to study him closely
>to have left nothing permanent
Because how are one meant to fulfill all virtue and duty by being a self-centered egoist permanently sitting under a tree never helping others?

>> No.14184774

>>14184752
But why can't the states of unity that Plotinus attained have been permanent? Why were they only temporary glimpses?

>> No.14184791

>>14184752
>>14184699
Plotinus spent most of his time joyously raising and educating orphans, these acts did more for his salvation than finding the pathway to God that all after him have followed.

>> No.14185202

>>14183405
I am not a Christian, I'm a Muslim. As far as Christian authors I like? Aquinas. One of the people who helps me with translation is busy in the ISNS, good people there but I stay away from academia.

>> No.14185774

>>14185202
Read Pseudo-Dionysius.

>> No.14185805

>>14169537
>thread inspo:
>https://youtu.be/3ltsSfOZzJI
>Not available

>> No.14185816
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14185816

What is the difference between platonists/ neo platonists/ and Perennialists?

>> No.14185890
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14185890

>>14178881
Can anyone post the channel so we can subscribe to it?


In return:
https://youtu.be/2to8cJdv17o

>> No.14185992

>>14184699
Plotinus BTFO!

>> No.14186015

>>14184699
Guenon is the biggest hack that has ever been peddled on this board.

>> No.14186158

>>14185774
I have. What exactly are you trying to point to?

>> No.14186232

>>14185202
>Muslim
>Aquinas
>Liking the ISNS
>translating Plotinus
I won't read it even if it was free. Opinions discarded.

>> No.14186450

>>14185816
Platonists and Neo-Platonists are based and redpilled. Perennialists are the globalists of spirituality.

>> No.14186481

>>14185774
Read Eriugena's books, much better than Pseudo-Dionysius

>> No.14186560

Look up Eric Fallick on youtube or his blogspot for platonic asceticism. Highly recommended.

>> No.14187039

>>14186560
>74 subscribers
That is you isn't it?

>> No.14187147

>>14184136
Check out Meditations on the Tarot

>> No.14187242

>>14186015
he's right, temporary union that one returns from is a surefire sign of stopping short of the Absolute, it seems Plotinus never fully attained the One as easterners have long known how to do, it's a shame really I wish it were otherwise

>> No.14187319

>>14187242
Yes. We easterners have permanent union with the divine. We have overcome materialism through sheer force of will. We just refuse to use our psychic powers to conquer the westerners. Conquering is for the weak. If you want my ancient secret oriental knowledge then buy my books and donate money -- obviously I don't need money because I am enlightened but if I don't make you pay then you won't take me seriously. Silly westerner.

>> No.14187384

>>14187319
>We just refuse to use our psychic powers to conquer the westerners.
That you would assume that someone who had reached the eternal would seek applications of this in the contingent and the ephemeral just shows how far you still have to go

>> No.14187406

>>14187384
Name one guru who doesn't do questionable shit (no qtub bullshit either)

>> No.14187483

>>14187406
Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj

>> No.14187531

>>14187406
Sankara

>> No.14187744

>>14186450
This except the complete opposite.

>> No.14187802

>>14186232
It's not for public distribution. Mashallah.


>>14186481
I agree.

>> No.14188284

Can someone explain the anima mundi to me?

>> No.14188583

>>14188284
Veltgeist

>> No.14189227

Can you guys make a chart or a reading list?

>> No.14189600
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14189600

>>14189227
Pythagoreans/Presocratics, Plato, Aristotle (to laugh at), Alcinous, Numenius, Plotinus, Iamblichus, Proclus, Syrianus, Simplicius, Damascius

Philoponus, Eriugena, Origen, Augustine, Meister Eckhart

Thomas Taylor (not his Plotinus translation), Ananda Coomaraswamy, Algis Uzdavinys, Deirdre Carabine, and last but not least: He who shall not be named.

Forbidden path for /sci/: Alcinous>Euclid>Iamblichus>Roger Boscovich>Oliver Heaviside>James Clerk Maxwell>CP Steinmetz>Eric Dollard>Oleg Jefimenko>Robert Distinti>He who shall not be named.

>> No.14189669

>>14189600
>not Proclus Commentary on Euclid
>No Pseudo-Dionysius

>> No.14189672

>>14186481

>> No.14189677

>>14186481
Yeah, do you have 4000$ to share?
Eriugena is a mix of Plotinus, Gregory of Nyssa, Dionysius, and Maximus the Confessor.

>> No.14189715

>>14184774
Because suicide is immoral, and to stay in henosis while still having the body attached to your soul will rip that part of your soul from your higher soul once the body dies from starvation, since you forcefully tried to escape physicality.
Wanting to "die" is understandable, willing to actually die is not; union isn't achieved through pure self obsession.
All easterners who die from asceticism only doom themselves to fall even deeper into body in their next life in order to retrieve their whole soul.
We aren't led down here by Necessity just to go up again, this life has a purpose and that purpose isn't to only redeem ourselves. This is what the deamonic theurgist is that Iamblichus spoke of, and Plato mentions in The Republic. The saved soul, who is completely purefied and whole, must according to virtue redescend into time and matter, solely to guide others. This is who Plotinus was, and who Plato was, Socrates, Homer, the heroes, etc,. The Sages.

>> No.14190179

>>14189600
Plato and Aristotle were in agreement about everything. Read Ammonius Saccas.

>> No.14190182

>>14189715
ok this is based

>> No.14190828

>>14189600
Why not Taylor’s translation of Plotinus? I think Stephen MacKenna’s is pretty good but Taylors is also recommendable. I’m curious, could you explain please?

>> No.14190852

>>14190828
It's not all of him.
Taylor has a proclean reading of platonism; and Proclus, for all his ingenuity, made some fundamental errors concerning the gods and principles posterior the One. He had a Titanic mind, constantly multiplying the orders of divinity to and almost absurd degree.
Taylor is therefore the best translator of Proclus.

>> No.14190919

>>14190852
Interesting. I ordered Taylor's translation of Proclus' Elements of Theology and his commentaries on the Timaeus last week. What do you think of MacKenna's translation of Plotinus?

>> No.14190926

>>14190852
>Taylor has a proclean reading of platonism; and Proclus, for all his ingenuity, made some fundamental errors concerning the gods and principles posterior the One.

explain

>> No.14190936

So if the One is completely unified, does not change, has no specific qualities, and is not part of "being", what is the difference between the One and non-being? They seem like they would be the same to me.

>> No.14190948

Can anyone here help me understand what Plato meant by the universal good? I feel like I’m close to understanding it but just need a couple more insights.

>> No.14191021

>>14190936
Being is supported by the One, it emmanates from That. The One is neither Being nor non-Being.

>> No.14191046

>>14190936
the One is the principle of individuation, not a thing or state or reality

>>14190948
all things strive for their own integrity. that is the Good. unity = intelligibility = goodness

>> No.14191183

>>14191021
>Being is supported by the One
Then how can you call it Being? Since it is clearly conditioned and has something more fundamental as its support.

>> No.14191198
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14191198

>>14190926
Intelligible gods.
Intellectual gods.
Intelligible and intellectual gods.
Don't forget the intellective gods. Or something like that. Connective?
And each come in threes.

>637 pages of this
Only 5 pages left, ahahah

>> No.14191199

What are some good works for a vedantic to read if hes interested in more western philosophy

>> No.14191209

>>14191198
read Edward Butler's work on Proclus, it's far more elegant a system than you give it credit for

>> No.14191213

>>14191199
Uzdavinys, Philosophy as a Rite of Rebirth

>> No.14191237

>>14191209
Probably, Taylor suffers a bit from the problem of mackenna, who chose some unpoetic names of the titles of the orders.
And this is also Proclus systematic work, more like a textbook of his system.

>> No.14191247

>>14191237
it's an incredibly beautiful system once it clicks.

the way butler interprets it is this way: instead of the problem of multiplicity being generated from unity, instead we have unity generated out of a primordial multiplicity.

>> No.14191274

>>14191198
>no bruh there are actually three Ones
neoplatonism did get pretty silly after awhile

>> No.14191385
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14191385

>>14191274
The three heads are more virtual aspects of the One, not actually distinct. Just as we can say the One is Being in an Ineffable way, since God as Intellect and Demiurge [of wholes, so to say] is the actuality ("pure act") of the One, since one cannot truly say that the One 'is'. He is all things but not a single thing, to paraphrase Plotinus
>>14191247
I need to read a modern translation, but the next stop is Damascius' Problems and Solutions, not more Proclus.

>> No.14191390

>>14191385
Three Henads*

>> No.14191418

>>14191274

Damascius is the cure.

>> No.14191639

>>14191183
Being is not the ultimate reality. The One is not Being (and Being is not the One). The only condition of Being is Unity.

>> No.14191738

>>14189600
who is He?

>> No.14192305

>>14191639
So then western Being is not the same as in Being in the eastern traditions? I thought Being was that which had nothing else but itself as a basis.

>> No.14192750

>>14189669
Already recommended Proclus, but you don't really need to read his shit at all if you're a /sci/on.
>>14189677
The four volume Periphyseon and his take on Predestination, I was able to illegally dl them for free. If you want the physical books, you're on your own.
>>14190179
The later Neoplatonists clearly takes a shit on Aristotle's sneaky bullshit, but some of Aristotle's works is right, just never equivalent to Plato and it takes a certain level of insight to straighten Aristotle out, even at times using his own logic against him to disprove Aristotle's inconsistencies.
>>14190828
Read whatever translation you like, all are insufficient.
>>14191738
It isn't me nor you, but he's real and still alive, just too good for /lit/ and often disparaged by his innumerable critics at all fronts of his interests in anything he talks and writes about. A few people already know who he is based on my recommendations, that's the only hint I'll give.

>> No.14192944

>>14190852
Proclus was right though. Plotinus is a dualist.

>> No.14192962

>>14192750
>The later Neoplatonists clearly takes a shit on Aristotle's sneaky bullshit,

Doesn't matter. Plato and Aristotle are in agreement on everything. Only brainlets think otherwise.

>> No.14192978
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14192978

>>14192750
>It isn't me nor you, but he's real and still alive, just too good for /lit/ and often disparaged by his innumerable critics at all fronts of his interests in anything he talks and writes about. A few people already know who he is based on my recommendations, that's the only hint I'll give.

Probably based Ken Wheeler. Weird that these neo-platonists on /lit/ are too cowardly to mention this guy because they're afraid of internet arguments.

>> No.14193218
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14193218

>>14192978
shit storm incoming lel

>> No.14193304

>>14192978
>>14193218
literally whom

>> No.14193341

>>14193304
look up theoria apophasis on youtube. he talks about photography and ancient monist metaphysics.

>> No.14193578

>>14192978
>>14193218
What's wrong with ken? seems like a smart lad if not a bit awful as a personality

>> No.14193585

>>14193578
Literally nothing. He's based and it's strange that these so called neo-platonists can't recognize that and stand behind him.

>> No.14194155
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14194155

>>14192944
How?
>>14192962
No.
>>14192978
The previous "Neoplatonist" thread had a bunch of aescetics that claim he doesn't know anything because of phrenology, he's also hated by Buddhists and Vedantists alike on here since he's against the Mother Sanskrit Theory as well as all Buddhist sectarian garbage. He also hates Guenon despite reading all of his works. He's hated by alternative scientists for denying the electron particle, and he doesn't give a shit about imageboard posts. You are the couple of people here that do recognize his genius. He's not a professional amateur photographer, he just focuses on product photography since that's where all the real money is at. Make some effort to not use the same old images, I recognize your threads and posts and usually they're infested with profane goons so I usually avoid them. Drop your Youtube channel name and I'll subscribe to you ;) I'm no coward, I just am not the type to care so much about posting about him when I'm more busy trying to make sense of what he's saying and why. I usually lurk on here with disappointment but I decided to throw my two cents at that anon who didn't know what to read. Who know, I might post again in the future.

>> No.14194208

>>14194155
>he's also hated by Buddhists and Vedantists alike on here
Not true, he speaks very favorably of Advaita Vedanta in his videos and says that it and Neoplatonism are the purest metaphysics closest to the truth. Very few people who've actually studied Vedanta and watched his videos would dislike him.

>> No.14194277

>>14194155
based wheelerposter.

>> No.14194366
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14194366

>>14194208
I've seen Vedantic ascetics hate on him because well, all ascetics in general believe in the Brahmin heresy of living like a dirty lunatic hippie as the path to enlightenment, all ascetics are metaphysically detestable scum, which is really the stance Gotama the Buddha made against the Jain ejects that converted to Brahmayana by association and not because they understood what Gotama was saying but that's a whole other topic. Everything Shankara (or Advaita Vedantists borrowing his name to refute sectarian Buddhism) said about Buddhism doesn't apply to presectarian Buddhism. Vedantists usually hate on Gotama because he was "Sramanic" as in your social caste doesn't affect if you can be liberated or not, but Gotama didn't deny that people weren't born into a caste, rather, what they do determines if they move up or down the caste and none of that has anything to do with transcendence. It's also wrong to say that Buddhas are against "Sanatana Dharma", Ananda Buddha had made Dharma the successor. I'm not going to bother posting this in the Indian threads, they're all inferior to Greek monism when it comes to knowing the metaphysics of physics anyways.
>>14194277
I'm not your typical run of the mill wheelerposter.

>> No.14194377

>>14192962
Can you enlighten this pleb and tell me how Plato and Aristotle agree on everything?

>> No.14194670

>>14172203
What are your thoughts on Manicheanism (Religion of Light)? Buddha Mo-Ni was onto something that was later picked up by Islam, the paraclete that Christ spoke of.

>> No.14194698

>>14194366
>>14194155
Who gives a shit?

>> No.14194708

>>14194670
Monists and Dualists are equally wrong.

>> No.14194857

>>14194708
so whats the middle ground? henotheism?

>> No.14194930

>>14194708
Depends on the type of monism while dualism as well as pluralism is as wrong as Creationism.
>>14194857
Terms like henotheism doesn't explain much. Metaphysical Monism is Holism for example. Trying to use labels to concepts that only describe a deeper system is like reading a book title and so claiming to had understood the contents of that book which is to assume the title explained anything about the contents of the book without knowing for yourself. How do you define henotheism? How is it different from your notion of monism and dualism? It isn't really monolatrism when there's a rejection of immortal psycho-physical beings to be real, while it isn't merely worshiping one 'god' at a time too. Terms like theism itself devolved from ideas of the divine essence behind phenomenal reality into worship of a persona that exists outside of existence which is really a projection of the fallen existential identity upwards to the intelligible realm as an object to be devoured through a physical ritual is not true just because you equivocate spirit with matter doesn't mean spirit is bound to matter forever nor does matter 'matters' as the means to the assent which must be inverted from upwards projection to downwards reversion, like doing a 360 moonwalk back out of the door that you fell into.
>>14194698
I love you too fren.

>> No.14194957

>>14194930
>How do you define henotheism? How is it different from your notion of monism and dualism? It isn't really monolatrism when there's a rejection of immortal psycho-physical beings to be real, while it isn't merely worshiping one 'god' at a time too. Terms like theism itself devolved from ideas of the divine essence behind phenomenal reality into worship of a persona that exists outside of existence which is really a projection of the fallen existential identity upwards to the intelligible realm as an object to be devoured through a physical ritual is not true just because you equivocate spirit with matter doesn't mean spirit is bound to matter forever nor does matter 'matters' as the means to the assent which must be inverted from upwards projection to downwards reversion, like doing a 360 moonwalk back out of the door that you fell into.

henotheism = worshipping multiple gods while acknowledging one overarching being. Think of the early Israelites time with Yahweh and Asherah worshipped side by side

>> No.14195004

>>14194670
I respect Both Manicheanism and Islam, and I definitely believe Jesus was referring to a physical person as the parakletos, not the Holy spirit.
But I cant say with certainty, weather it was the Prophet Mani or the Prophet Muhammad

>> No.14195024

>>14194957
In that definition, you need to define what kind of overarching being, for the lesser gods can never be the Absolute. There can only be one first principle yet there's different ways to describe the relation of the Absolute to totality, totality to the absolute, the mixing of the two, and the Absolute in and of itself. There also can't really be equal gods without one of said gods interceding between the higher and the lower but then there's no equivalent Absolutes, plural. Metaphysical Monistic systems borrow names of the ruler of pantheons as the means to convey something beyond that which their ancestors didn't elucidate upon, so Zeus Hammon as the Monad isn't therefore stating Zeus as described by the worshipers of Zeus is the Monad. The first, second and third hypostases aren't three different "gods" neither are they the primitive gods of ancient man.

>> No.14195071

>>14195004
I just recently acquired a Qur'an ( publisher: The Book Tree) that is extremely elaborate in that it goes so far as to include hadith, several interpretation and why he chose which translation for which reason. It's also in like 3 parts, classical arabic, transliteration and english. It has a DO NOT RESELL sticker on it and it looks like it's worth at least $60 that I got for free at a behavioral health care sentence I was staying at.

I'm also with you on whether the Paraclete is Muhammad or Mani. The same as if they are the prophets seal. The last of the prophets.

I'm finishing up a Religious Studies degree and wrote on this topic Neoplatonism stemming from the Orphic religions. Asram Vidya Order might be a place you want to check out. It has some pretty good books and not snakeoil sales man. The book on Parmenides is what I read. I have the Pathway to fire one but I haven't delved into it much as Parmenides and Orphism

>> No.14195111

>>14195071
Thanks, I might check it out. I have heard a similar idea, that Platonism & Neoplatonism stemmed from Orphism, and then that Orphism had stemmed from Zoroastrianism.
Which is very interesting for Perennialists

>> No.14195169

>>14195111
Sounds like the kind of stuff David Livingstone writes

>> No.14195220

>>14195111
>>14195169
https://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog/mithraism-zoroastrian-gnosticism
http://mailstar.net/gordon.html

>> No.14195488

>>14195071
>>14195111
It's not even up for debate that Orpheus was the progenitor of the hellenic Golden Chain; the hellenic seed of the many prior fruits (Egyptian, proto-European, Anatolia, and Zoroaster [before his revelation was turned into Ontological Dualism, I.e that there's two primordial principles and not a higher one that causes the two symphonic antitheses]). We say that most of the Ancients were either vague or silent about the First Principle, because it is Ineffable and their daemonical guidance about it was of poetic and symbolic.

>> No.14195562

>>14195111
Most "perennials" of the past 200 years have been hacks.

>> No.14195569

>>14194366
>>14194208
>>14194155
>>14193218
A fat fuck can't be right.
How much true understanding can there be in one who isn't virtuously whole?

>> No.14195570

>>14195562
Nah there have been some Good ones.

Good tier Perennials:
-Rene Guenon
-Julius Evola
-Carl Jung
-Arthur Schopenhauer
-Nietzsche


Shit tier Perennials:
- Helena Blavatsky
- Bahá'u'lláh
- Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
- & pretty much any Liberal/Coexist cuck

>> No.14195580

>>14195570
I thought about reading Guenon
Then I read.
>>14184699
And it's the first and last of Guenon I'll ever read, and if I find a book quoting him with approval I'll return it. It

>> No.14195591

>>14195580
Hey man theres so many different religions/philosophies Perennials need to read up on to know their stuff, he genuinely didn't have time to read Plotinus.

It's not like Guenon is supposed to be an infallible Prophet or anything, he just has some pretty Good ideas regarding Esotericism, Perennialism and criticism of modernity (anti modernity is the part im most interested in)

>> No.14195595

>>14195580
You shouldnt drop an entire philosopher based on one quote either/.

>> No.14195599

>>14174208
He was tempted to fuck Alcibiades boypussi but abstained to keep it real and practice philosophy 24/7.

>> No.14195797

>>14194377
It's what Plotinus' teacher literally taught.

>> No.14195799

>>14194366
>I'm not going to bother posting this in the Indian threads, they're all inferior to Greek monism when it comes to knowing the metaphysics of physics anyways.

Elaborate.

>> No.14196268
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14196268

Who, here, knows Apollonius of Tyana? The most based neopythagorean.

>> No.14196292

>>14195595
a quote that says everything
>>14195591
If he hasn't read Plotinus he probably hasn't read any of the Neoplatonists, or seemingly any Greek myth and theology. no surprise he became muslim if all he knew was poorly deduced Indian thought.

>> No.14196296

>>14183654
Plato's influence over hermeticism is over rated, remember, it is said that the hermetic knowledge comes from Egypt. Also, Corpus Hermeticum has elements of the cult of Mithras and some in common with Zoroastrianism. It is said that Pythagoras went to Persia to gain wisdom with the magis. It could be a common source, maybe the ethics and metaphysics were inate to Greece's world view. However, that's just an opinion.

>> No.14196316

>>14196292
I agree he should have studied neoplatonism more in depth. But you know he wasn’t ignorant of Greek thought, right? He studied Plato and Aristotle, the latter is always cited in his works.

>> No.14197029

Can someone help me understand just what the forms really are? I get that they are abstract archetypes, but how abstract? Is there a form of a human, a form of dirt, a form of a tree, or is it more abstract than that like a form of time and a form of space? As I understand it even Plato was not sure how far they went, so what did the Neoplatonists have to say about this?

>> No.14197059

>>14194366
>the Brahmin heresy of living like a dirty lunatic hippie as the path to enlightenment, all ascetics are metaphysically detestable scum, which is really the stance Gotama the Buddha made against the Jain ejects that converted to Brahmayana by association and not because they understood what Gotama was saying but that's a whole other topic
Buddha was an ascetic you absolute retard. The whole "Buddha abandoned asceticism for a middle path" is just a huge meme, the rules for the sangha when Buddha was alive are objectively ascetic by any modern standard. The had no possessions except their robes and begging boles, they could to remain chaste, they only got food from begging and would not eat after the mid-day meal, only eating two small meals a day, they would constantly wander from place to place so as to not get attached to their surroundings. They just didn't engage in extreme austerities like fasting for weeks etc. Ascetism is the ultimate pleb-filter

>Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted.
Plato - The Republic

>> No.14197063

>>14196268
bart ehrman uses him as an example of other jesus type salvation figures that were around the time of jesus. does miracles, killed by the romans, achieves spiritual victory resurrection after death, divinity etc

>> No.14197076
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14197076

>>14197029
Imagine before the physical world existed there was only God. He wanted to create stuff but only had himself as a reference point. Therefore he created the world as we know it from himself. Everything that exists or is being made by humans is an imitation of a single aspect of god. You can count backwards too. Suppose God just made this one universe, then this universe would contain all matter. This would make the sum of all matter in that universe everything that god is because god made everything from himself as there was nothing else but him. Except the sum would be more like a clone.

>> No.14197077

>>14197063
Yes, there are plenty of parallels. Also with Paul The Apostle.

>> No.14197099

>>14197076
Christians like to larp as Neo-Platonists. How does this square with the Christian creation of ex nihilo?

>> No.14197107
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14197107

>>14197076
Then again you could argue since "god" and the universe exist next to each other there must be a real super god that serves as the singularity of these two. I think thats called the monad but I dont know

>> No.14197200

>>14197099
They don't larp, they are platonic since the early times

>> No.14197281

>>14197200
It's a long larp I'll give them that

>> No.14197422

>>14197281
Kek. What I mean is that it's difficult to be catholic while denying platonism, the platonic christians became saints, so Plato is already part of the essence of catholicism. I don't know if we could generalize that for all christianity tho.

>> No.14198005

>>14169537
People figured out 1700 years ago that plato is out of date. We have better philosophy now.

>> No.14199134

>>14197059
Staying healthy and living cheaply is to avoid being distracted by physicality as means to spend more time on jnana, dhyana, sati, samadhi is true asceticism not because of the lifestyle but the means of negating what's not the Self as means to know thyself, unites the citta in brahman as buddhi in theurgic synthesis of the Self through vijja. The profane form of asceticism is those that claim all must live like an unkempt hippie to be saved and those who stop living like a dirty madman are unsaved, it's a form of Annihilationism. You don't have to live like a devotee to know what the teacher is trying to convey, one needs some guidance and retroductive logic to actualize vijja. Those who have the truth as well as knowing the path to come to the truth, all else doesn't matter. If you can lose the truth, it was never true to begin with, while the persona will of course die and will never transcend, that one who have mastered the Mind(Citta/Nous, not vinnana) to come to the know the Self cannot be destroyed in principle, just as Gotama succumb to the poison of Cunda used by Kassapa, Buddha never died, the mara, that namarupic vessel dies. The buddha is akimcanna, just as there is no soul in the body but that is not the denial of the soul.

>> No.14199178

>>14197059
Except the idea of the middle path meant rejecting the idea that wisdom was to be found specifically by punishing the body to the point where it hovered on the line between life and death.
The middle path means living with enough so that one is neither causing himself pain or enjoyment.

>> No.14199237

>>14199178
I'm no buddhologist but where in scripture was middle path used?

>> No.14199649

>>14197029
Noetic wisdom that which is inseparable from the Divine Intellect which isn't the same as that brain which experiences consciousness. Abstractions are closer to descriptions of attributes to better describe the principle but is not the same as understanding the Platonic forms. Whatever forms that "exists" without the Intellect are abstractions, not Platonic forms. So called objects of intellection are not really objects but the idea of the subject that shape and matter represents in its noetic, eidetic, unmanifest potentiality, not in its physically actualized state which is imperfect but can be perfected to be a close representation of that which has no phenomenal identity.

>> No.14201002

>>14199134
instead of reading Advaita views into Buddhism that 99+% of Buddhists disagree with and which you have to strain really hard and scrape the bottom of the barrel to find in the Pali Canon you know you could instead just ..... study Advaita....
>>14199178
Regardless of however you want to equivocate, the Buddha's requirements that people who wanted to join the Sangha had to renounce their possesions and become monastics who get their food from begging in itself constitutes asceticism, and not even a moderate one at that.

>> No.14201377

>>14197099
Ex nihilo just means that matter wasn't co-eternal with god, Christians can easily affirm creatio ex deo

>> No.14201432

plato gives no yoga. I hear him talk about all these forms and ideas, but if I want to participate in them, what do I do?

I'm a Christian. I have spirituality. But I'm curious what a pre-Christian platonist did.

>> No.14201555

>>14201432
Plato's audience were pagans so a yoga was presumed, although Plotinus stressed contemplation and in later Neoplatonism theurgy became prominent.

>> No.14201559

>>14201555
What was Greek yoga like?
People were trying to achieve union with Zeus or some shit?

>> No.14201603

>>14201559
Henosis

>> No.14201619

>>14201559
Theurgical rituals which would probably be something akin to Catholic or orthodox liturgy

>> No.14201699
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14201699

>>14201432
>>14201555
>>14201559
fuck "yoga" tho, nothing to do with contemplation

>> No.14201722

>>14201699
Contemplation is yoga (jnana yoga).

>> No.14201794

>>14201002
Not all Buddhologists are Advaitins. I did study Advaita, as well as presectarian Brahmayana/Buddhism. I understand the truth behind both, all without conversing to, nor spending a single penny to any Swami or Bhikku. I however despise the mental dribble and drama that comes with identifying with either Advaita Vedanta or Buddhism when speaking to most people despite how both are essentially explaining the same things also found in some passages of Plato's dialogues and in Neoplatonic writ on the nature of the soul and the metaphysical hierarchy, but I find reading the topics the later Neoplatonists had on physics against Aristotle interesting and of more use to come to know the nature of the physical world needs to rely on a conceptual omnipresent ideal medium for both light and matter to manifest through and within but that's more into Ken Wheeler stuff you probably might not care about because he's physically repulsive, yes, please don't look into his translations and articles and books on various topics, it's a waste of your time because he's fat.
>>14201559
Some go to the temple of Apollo to talk to the Oracle of Delphi about someone who had died, but they usually don't seek to worship the gods the way commoners do. Some avoid being persecuted for not believing the gods by using the names of the olympian gods in the metaphysical hierarchy to convey nonreligious concepts, metaphysical or otherwise. Some go to various sacred places to try to know what they can about other systems and cultures to test and expand their own understanding of the divine. Some just are too busy with other matters. All seek to know thyself.

>> No.14202442

>>14201722
>knowledge
nope

>> No.14202467

>>14201794
>because he's fat.
This.
A fat fuck clearly lacks a holistic understanding, doesn't matter how knowledgeable he might be if he isn't completely invested in what he studies.

>> No.14202517

>>14201794
>>14202467
fat dudes with a shaved head are peak aesthetics

>> No.14202578

>>14201377
It means creation out of nothing. Which is illogical.

>> No.14202579

>>14169537
>
Heretic

>> No.14202584

So, the form of the good is the highest form, all other forms partake in it (the perfect circle is not the good, but only part of the good), and we can use our (perhaps subconscious) knowledge of these forms to interpret the world? (As the teacher would draw a circle on the board, the illustration may not be perfect, but the students know that it is meant to be perfect because they know what a perfect circle ought to be). Am I understanding this correctly?

>> No.14204212

>>14202467
Man you are really despicable.
>>14202517
I don't care about his looks, he's been on keto for awhile believe it or not. Aesthetics and ascetics, both are two sides of the same attachment to material reality.
>>14202584
Descartes and Jung has ruined western philosophers by the conflation of Intellect/Mind, psyche, and the psyche expressed through the brain/body.

>> No.14204235

>>14201699
How is bhakti different than say catholic contemplation?
Bothiving in constant reverence to divinity

>> No.14204738

>>14204212
>Aesthetics and ascetics, both are two sides of the same attachment to material reality.
to deny the lower virtues and lower goods is to clearly not have the good nor justice or beauty
To have (be) the higher is to naturally perform and produce the lower, since the lower are the energies of the power and essence of God. It is the nature of Soul to mimic Being (who is the perfect image of the One), and the world is the playground of mimicry.

>> No.14205848

>>14204738
>>14204738
>being(namarupa) is perfect
>dies
Wrong. The heaps are not the Self in principle, grasping onto impermanence is mara dhamma.

>> No.14206171

>>14189715
this sounds like the bodhisattva lol
that’s cool

>> No.14207644

>>14205848
Being is eternity itself.

>> No.14208058
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14208058

>>14207644
Neither corporeal being nor becoming into corporeal existence is eternal in principle, both are attributes of agnosis that depends on the Absolute to be perpetuated, it isn't what which is eternal, rather attributionally coeternal to the divine principle which doesn't partake in emanation directly in a causal system. That which is the physical universe is the world soul, the Nous in agnosis, procession, expression. That expression is not within the noetic realm of the indefinite dyad/Nous in gnosis and the Monad. To say that matter is Brahman as insinuation upon a total rejection of the hierarchy is also no different than profane physicalism or even more utterly pedestrian like animism, for there is then no reason to even seek liberation to begin with since there's no transformation of essence to 'return' when it was already actualized regardless of individuals realizing it or not. The Soul is the inverted image of the One projected onto matter and metaphysical agnosis and suffering is the identification of that illusory self as the True Self. What is expedient to stay alive long enough to attain gnosis is not the means to the end, it is merely one of many means to not be distracted from the true means to the metaphysical recollection, reversion, theurgic subject synthesis which is through disobjectification, not identifying impermanence as the undying principle. The methexis of the psyche with temporal hyle(since matter isn't eternal nor stable which some presocratics understood well that the end of motion is too the end of hyle) as corporeal being, that 'consciousness'/vinnana dies with the brain but the identification to that body prevents the return of the psyche/Nous in agnosis back to the Monad for it objectifies after disembodiment, which is what is the manomayakaya, 'Mind made body' spectre which cannot properly interact among the living and is vexed by their own self imposed suffering due to the failure of gnosis and attachments to phenomenal existence. People like you on /lit/ are innumerable as the sand, common puthujjana in a mind loop of Zen Buddhist tier religious cult brainwashing in whatever profane corrupted "Vedantist" school teaching metaphysical heresies that damns the soul to lesser and lesser hells, reifying attributes as principles in therefore denying attributes and distinctions of metaphysical systems. Like white paint on a coffin of bones, the worshipers of Mara takes another pious fool.

>> No.14208323

>>14208058
Being is Eternity itself, one simultaneous whole, timeless.
Soul is dialectics itself, the precursor of time (being the stream of consciousness, X after Y).
Matter is absolute formlessness, it is in a way also an image of the One, nonbeing and beyond Being, the absence of all things seemingly being alike the absolute fulfillment of all things. That the floor and ceiling of the All are both ineffable is a sign of the Ineffable above in and under both (raw matter and the One). Matter by being nothing it can be everything, indefinite, the other being the potential of all things before all things.
Matter is as we can see directly from the One, it is the absence of Limitation. Strangely it is the total absence of Oneness. Yet by being such it is in a way the very reality that lies in-between.
The reality is that the reason why the immaterial Soul is drawn to a hylomorphic existence is because matter and immaterial is the first division. Hylomorphic life is the actual path of initiation to fulfilled union as the One. For matter to from the one must be returned.
The One is fulfillment, and fulfillment naturally begets the other, this is emanation; the reality of soul is that it is ignorant of heavenly matter. The turning from the Nous is that a-gnostical intuition that as soul in heaven living in half-time is becoming filled yet always losing something of itself (being matter falling away from it), bodily existence is the realization of soul that it needs its whole self to ascend. We must descend, to ascend higher, then descend deeper than before to once more ascend higher. It is a vertical spiral.
Only we glorify matter, fastening the reigns of the whole soul, and enter the vehicle of soul, only then can we ride and follow Zeus to the peak of Olympos. Many times, after each death, we attempt this ascension yet wonder why we fail. When we fail to realize that everything is from there, including matter, nothing is evil in-of-itself, evil is result of false hierarchical order.

>> No.14208373

>>14208058
>>14208323
Matter is that which is permanently impermanent.
From the One is Limit, Unlimited, and their union (mix). Being, as in Nous and Intellect itself, the fatherland of the Soul, is all three.
Matter is solely the unlimited, indefinitely indefinite.

>> No.14208384

What do you guys think of Heidegger? Is his ontology and critique of metaphysics relevant to neoplatonism?

>> No.14208622

>>14208323
>>14208373
The first division is absolutely not spirit from matter, it is spirit against itself. You also are conflating and misusing the terms I'm using out of context. Matter is a byproduct of "space"/magnitude/rhea/flux, it can be destroyed because it is a mere modality of a FIELD that is QUALITATIVE, has no quantity because there is only one FIELD. Matter vanishes when motion ceases for all force is magnitude, but beyond the vanishing point is the total antithesis to all phenomenal force vectors yet is also the generator thereof as the MEDIUM that extrapolates hyper-eucledian hyperbolic negative curvature into toroidal magnetism from a moving electrostatic point-charge. The 1 in principle and the aoristos dyad or the second one is the 1 in attribution, like illumination is what light does but not what light is when there's no perturbation of the AETHER that IS LIGHT in principle. Illumination is the motion of the AETHER and the aether IS PSYCHE, it is the eikon of the Monad, the aoristos dyad, the primordial agnosis of the One that knows not but can know thyself THROUGH THE INVERSION OF AGNOSIS leads to anamnesis back to the eidos and the epistrophe to the Monad through the theosis of the disobjectified psyche with the Eidos comes to know the extrinsic attribute of the Absolute can "return" to the Monad. Nosce te Ipsum. Quantum physics is a dead end which is why they are open to revitalizing the electrical theory and concepts of an ideal medium for a realm orthogonal to this cartesian 3D space. Time is the measuring of cycles of matter in relation to other cycles of references bound to other matter. The medium between this realm and the unmanifest pure potential realm hat phases in and out of this world is the Nous, the second hypostasis, but the medium between phenomenal being and phenomenal becoming of Zoe is the third hypostasis.

>> No.14208787

>>14208622
Hi, Ken. Love your work.

>> No.14209091

>>14208622
Matter isn't mass, mass is a product of something hylomorphic.
Without form matter is energy.

>> No.14209251

>>14208622
Ken, have you read Shankara's commentaries? I only see you mention his non-commentary works in your videos

>> No.14209563

>>14208622
>>14179385

>> No.14210642
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14210642

>>14169537
hey can anyone prove the existence of the soul i've been plagued by this lately

>> No.14210992

>>14209091
>Matter isn't mass
Magnitude is magnetism, the mimetic-hylic shadow of eidos that the psyche uses for hylic phenomenal force divergence. Dielectric condensate of the aether/psyche becomes matter/mass because of its reciprocating magnetic field orthogonal to the dielectric point source emanation and reciprocation into dielectric acceleration that the field has generated to conserve the angular momentum at all scales from the micro to macro. There will always be quantity generated from the destruction of quantity but the system at any scale relies on an unquantifiable quality of the aether itself that never partakes in physical reality directly due to its metaphysical inertia of the Monad. Shadows aren't "hylomorphic" in and of itself and by itself, no. Every hypostasis has the image of the previous hypostasis it comes from but it is weaker and weaker at every expression of itself, less and less real, which matter/mass is not the true limit to agnosis, there is no real limit to agnosis but there is no agnosis without that which partakes in gnosis. There is a limiting principle that keeps people from throwing infinite supersets of supersets upon each other as something valid without being exposed for the fools they are. Dreams are less real than physical shadows for example, so are dreams of dreaming about dreaming less real than dreams. Mathematics therefore loses metaphysical meaning at certain scales, wholly irrelevant to the truthseeker. Knowing the true metaphysical identity of the noetic cosmos is the means to know the principle behind manifestation as well as the attributional byproducts thereof that terminates into.
>>14208787
>>14209251
I'm not him, seriously. Ken Wheeler suspects that the commentaries by Shankara might not be from him exclusively but also by Advaitins.
>>14210642
The soul is not an object to be obtained, the knower can attain the truth and wisdom of the True Self, tat tvam asi.

>> No.14211137

Excellent playlist of Pierre Grimes
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp6rnhCy8XkocvDGQ2us0cxbC59bFblZq

>> No.14211176

>>14169767
the psyche is the soul (or the lower part of it) though. the psyche is made in image of the pneuma (spirit) and the body in the image of the pneuma/psyche

>> No.14212559

Could Jesus be interpreted as a Neoplatonist whose message was merely corrupted? Has he ever been interpreted as such?

>> No.14212697

>>14210992
Read Plotinus - On Matter

>> No.14212888

>>14208384
His critique of ontotheology is not.

>> No.14212889
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14212889

>>14212697
Read every 61 occurences of Aoristos in the Enneads. https://archive.org/download/IndefiniteDyadPlotinusMetaphysicsMysticism/IndefiniteDyadPlotinusMetaphysicsMysticism.pdf

>> No.14212902

>>14212559
Many people see him that way.

>> No.14212926

>>14212889
Yes? Matter is the substrate, the undefined upon which the ideas and soul are transfigured.

>> No.14213104

>>14212926
There is no true essence in the substrate, the substrate is generated and emanated from the second one, the divine aoristos of Monad and Nous. The false aoristos of Magnitude and Matter is not the same aoristos as the aoristos dyad. The false aoristos is the externalization, expression of the second hypostasis/Nous in agnosis into the third as the third hypostasis of the Plotinian trinity, the world soul, of which the psyche in psyche tou pantos is the Monad divided by Nous, or the Nous seeking One outside of the One acausally or the uncaused cause of the coeternal principle of gnosis and attribute of gnosis which is agnosis. The Monad is not 'God' while Nous in principle is one with the Monad and can know the Monad but in emanation uses eidos/reflection to 'form' the 'shadow puppets', mimesis-hyle to express phenomenal being. There was a will to emanate but it wasn't the kind of corporeal conscious intention done like a father would intentionally feed his children, rather, primordial ignorance as I've already mentioned in previous posts. Matter and light share the same medium in reality, matter is 'hard light' as Ken puts it, which Walter Russell and Nikola Tesla both understood that. Matter is metaphysically unreal, physically apparently real, but matter cannot have any true principle. All space, time, matter was always there not because the aisthetos and noetos are by any means fully separate, nor does the physical cosmos by any means are equal to or greater than the noetic cosmos, but because there is no principle without at least one attribute, so the first principle has a coeternal attribute to be known through but without the noumena, there is no phenomena. That which is timeless is not within time, you cannot be timeless and bound to time. To destroy principle and attribute is to reject any theurgic liberation and transcendence since in such a flawed and foolish system there is no dis-objectification without dis-subjectification and so there too is no expression nor impression of what's Self and not the Self, which is the failure of understanding real nondual monistic pan and holon.

>> No.14213216

>>14213104
Yes that's what undefined and indefinite means.
There's no such thing as false, only lesser, matter might three degrees of derivative off of the chariots of the gods, but it still the same basic function (being the canvas of the demiurge's pretty painting called the world).

>> No.14213282
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14213282

>>14213216
>No such thing as false
False.

>> No.14213638

>>14213282
Ontologically speaking.

>> No.14213681

>>14213104
Soul is neither in time nor timeless, yet it 'touches' both, being one and many. Irrational soul is always in time, Soul herself the Queen of Heaven, as the meta-subject of all subjects, is pseudo-timeless being in a way each soul in time across all time. That which was, which is, and is yet to be—all simultaneously.
Nous/Being/Dyad/the All/God (the triadic Henad) is both object and subject, eternally unbecoming the One.
The One is neither subject nor object, yet one cannot truly state that God as the Dyad isn't God as the One: he can only be known as thrice unknown.

>> No.14213729

>>14213104
Also.
Phenomena is inherently pneumatic, it is thought they eyes of the living that objects in the world are perceived through pattern (form) recognition, but there's not actually a single form in the world only thee confused reflection of their image. Mind of man paints our vision to appear comprehensible. An example being how our physical eyes are made to block out 99.99% of all visible light, because to see all light would be to see the complete [reflection] of God. (The One is best understood through the analogy of the color spectrum and white light, when all visible color is available we see their true reality as just whiteness, now "try" to imagine the entire spectrum of light).
This is also one reason why Soul descends here, since she can see all light she confuses the reflection for the real, being unable to process all information simultaneously and rather sequentially (dialectically).

>> No.14213733

>>14213729
Through the eyes*

>> No.14214050
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14214050

>>14213638
>>14213681
>>14213729
>>14213733
It is ontologically false to say a cat is a dog for that is to ignore the distinctions of dissimilarity. It is ontologically false to reify superpositions of different distinctions of qualities of essences to be same just because one is generated from the other as the other returns to the one. It is ontologically false to conflate pure noetic unmanifest potential with the impure manifest kinetic expression. Just because there's intermediaries between all that depends on the One for there to even have a "many" doesn't mean the One as all is in the same ontological state as the One in One. The One in nothing expresses infinitude in the emptying of one into nothing. Nothing therefore is infinite, infinite is nothing, both are the one "pole" on the One that deludes in thinking that there's multitude of One and so that attribute is very much real because the One is absolute, the attributes are not. The infinite sees nothing and nothing sees infinite, but true wisdom sees the One and that wisdom of the One is what liberates the One in attribute return to the One in principle because there's distinctions of ontological states.