/lit/ - Literature

>>14161128
yes

>>14161128
no

maybe

Middle of the road desu

>>14161138
pleb-tier opinion desu

Yes

>the Upanishads aren't the greatest piece of writing ev-

>>14161128
given how women love it, i say yes

Besides Vasistha's Yoga, yes.

they would be if the original upanishads survived unedited by brahmans, as it stands the brahmans edited them all to support (obviously) brahmanism. same prob with the buddhist canons, ruined by later dickheads trying to make everything fit their gay sect nobody even remembers.

we've lost 90% of ancient greek philosophy, 99% of zhou era chinese philosophy, and all the indian philosophy we have is butchered by subsequent priestly caste faggots who were basically the legalistic jews of hinduism

>>14161440
I doubt it, Brahmins had to memorise them so unless there was a pan indian conspiracy...

>>14161440
very likely to be true. I heard another posters opinion on the Upanishads that the name Upanishad originally was supposed to be translated as the "end" of the vedas, and by extension the end of the caste system. But instead the "end" of the vedas, it was interpreted as the "summary" of the vedas, as a commentary on them. which allowed the Brahmans to stay in power.

The Upanishads were to the Vedas what the Gospel was to the bible, and was corrupted by the priestly caste in the same way. Thats why Gnostics saw the coming of Jesus as an end to the old testament.

desu, Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, (Non-Sethian) Gnosticism and the Upanishads are just expanded forms of the core concepts in all religions.

>>14161501
>pan indian conspiracy
Not the only way it could have happened

>>14161501
no conspiracy, just cultural change over time. it's like saying judaism in 500AD is the same as judaism in 800BC. lots can change over time. different cultures, different states, different writing systems and all that.

the main thesis since the mid 19th century about the brahmanical phase of indian religion and philosophy, which is what most people think when they say "hinduism" and assume that it's a single coherent tradition going all the way back to the vedas, is that the brahmins substantially edited and interpolated the vedic corpus over hundreds of years. just google brahmanical tampering, brahmanical interpolations and so forth. this is the standard scholarly thesis since at least max muller, and it's trivially demonstrable. it's not a conspiracy, it's just hundreds of years going by and priests having agendas.

the same thing happens with the deuteronomical source layer in the old testament or really any source layer, and the same thing happens with the new testament taking 300 years of councils to decide what is heretical and which bible books are "real."

pic related is a brief summary of the mainstream view of vedic literature, if anyone's curious

>>14161537
that is the standard thesis, the brahmins have been viewed as the pharisees for a long time. it started as a german meme but to be honest it fits pretty well.

the brahmins especially tampered with the bhagavad gita and mahabharata, those are actually quite late texts.

>>14161648
also if you are into the racial hypothesis, then the "brahmanization" (witzel) of the indian philosophical scene was also a "dravidianization," it was a loss of the distinct aryan qualities

so actually hinduism and brahmanism smothered the best parts of upanishads, they did not preserve them. most scholars are quite hostile to the brahmins lol, which is funny because hindu nationalists HATE this and write lots of engrish books attacking it

>>14161648
>>14161651
That is very unfortunate.
It feels like Neoplatonism is the only metaphysical philosophy that hasn't been tampered with by people with agendas. There was a similar discussion in the Gnostic thread
>>14151166

>>14161128
O agree Butkus for this reason it shouldn’t be divulged among the NPCs and pseudos. It’s a reading for yourself and a few.

Gonna have to Sage.

>>14161666
neoplatonism definitely has been as well, just take a look at the Platonic Theology of marsilio ficino, or frances yates' book on bruno and the hermetic tradition. the 15th century renaissance authors thought they had discovered an actual hermetic corpus and they were very credulous about taking it at face value. you can still read ficino for entertainment or beauty, or for pure philosophy, but we simply know too much now to think that the straight-up narrative of the hermetic history is plausible. source criticism reveals many hermetics texts supposedly of "ancient egyptian origin," supposedly like 50,000BCE, to be obviously from 200CE. lots of things like that.

any text is going to drift, change, be edited and added to by later authors, be copied. there are a million pseudo-whoevers for every actual whoever. the platonic corpus itself is extremely dubious, we know for certain that many things are not by plato's hand, we have some strong hypotheses (for example that the two Hippias dialogues are by students in the academy but not by plato) but certain ones are still ambiguous to this day. most famously whether the all-important seventh letter of plato is genuine or not. similar problems abound for the aristotelian corpus, even worse since we're missing 90% of it and what we do have is in fragments.

things get even worse if you have a priestly caste. it's surprisingly easy to edit things while claiming to be transmitting them. isn't it amazing how homeric bards ca. 800BC are telling stories that took place ca. 1200BC, but aside from superficial and glaring things, all of the customs and culture depicted in the songs are reflective of 800BC social conditions, and in fact major basic things that the bards should have known about mycenaean culture and politics (because they would affect the story) are missing altogether?

the way we break up "hundred schools" philosophy into legalists, confucians, taoists, and so on is actually reflective only of sima tian and sima qian's division of the schools, many years after the burning of the books and scholars by qin shi huang di, making it almost impossible to verify anything. subsequent confucian hegemony in chinese society naturally depicted "confucianism" as coherent tradition, but would confucius have thought the same? did mencius even know who the fuck confucius was?

the only thing to do is to read the texts critically to figure out as much as you can, try to rescue all the unique "voices" in them, and then do real philosophy yourself. after all, if something is right, it doesn't matter whether nagarjuna was fudging who he heard it from or incorrect in thinking it was originally said by King So-and-So from 13728BC

>>14161691

>>14161440
You are confusing Mahayana wirh Theravada. There isn't anything biased in Theravada which is why it's profoundly unpopular among "practitioners." In other words, there isn't anything for any group to benefit from.

Tremendously courageous people - they have not even signed their names. In fact it would have been ugly to sign because they were not the writers, they were not the composers, they were not the poets. The poetry was coming from above, from beyond. They were simply vehicles.

Because of this, you will be surprised also to know that the whole Koran consists of Hajrat Mohammed's statements, the Gita consists totally of Krishna's statements, but each upanishad consists of many peoples' expressions - anybody who had reached to that beyond and allowed the beyond to descend through him.

The Upanishads have not bothered to collect the words of one person. Each upanishad contains the words of many enlightened people, and without any signatures. Words have never been so golden. Words have never taken such high flights, and yet the people who allowed them to happen have remained anonymous. This is so beautiful, immensely beautiful, because they knew, "We have nothing to do. We have just been passages. Something has come through us."

One upanishadic rishi, one upanishadic seer - the name, of course, is unknown - is reported to have said, "If there is any mistake in my statement, that is mine. And if there is any truth, I cannot claim that it is mine. The truth belongs to the universe; the mistake belongs to me, I was not such a good vehicle." These were rare people, unique human beings, the very salt of the earth.

I would like my sannyasins to become this very salt of the earth again.

It is because these are not religious scriptures, that's why there is no religion following the Upanishads. These are the very few books which contain the greatest quantity of truth and have remained unorganized. There is no organization around them; there cannot be - because of the very methodology there cannot be a church, there cannot be a pope or a shankaracharya.

>>14161922
The Upanishads are not commentaries on the Vedas, neither are they extensions of the Vedas. Of course, Hindus go on insisting that they are commentaries or extensions of the Vedas, but that is a falsehood perpetuated by the priesthood for their own reasons.

In fact, the Upanishads are rebellions against the Vedas. Another name for the Upanishads is Vedanta. The priests have been saying that Vedanta means the culmination of the Vedas; the word can be interpreted that way, but in fact it means the end of the Vedas and the beginning of something absolutely new. The Vedas are very ordinary compared to the Upanishads.

The Upanishads say that there are two kinds of knowledge: the lower and the higher. The lower knowledge is the realm of the priesthood, the scholars, the pundits; and the higher knowledge is the world of the buddhas, of the awakened ones. The priest is a businessman, his whole effort is to exploit people in the name of religion. He oppresses people, dominates people, and of course he goes on saying, "It is for your own sake." He makes people afraid of hell and greedy for heavenly joys. This is a psychological trick. He knows people are afraid, he knows people are greedy, so these are the two things that he goes on manipulating: fear and greed. And this is done by all the priests of all the religions in all the traditions all over the world.

The Upanishads are rebellions against the priesthood. The Upanishads are not at all commentaries on the Vedas - the Vedas are very mundane, ordinary. Yes, once in a while you can find a sutra in the Vedas which is beautiful, but that is only one percent at the most. Ninety-nine percent is just rubbish, while the Upanishads are one hundred percent pure gold - they are statements of those who have known.

The Vedas are full of prayers asking for worldly things: better crops, better cows, more money, better health, fame, power, prestige. Not only that, the Vedas are continuously praying, "Destroy our enemies, destroy those who oppose us." They are full of jealousy, anger, violence. They have nothing to do with the Upanishads.

https://www.osho.com/osho-online-library/osho-talks/upanishads-vedas-isa-upanishad-db44ba67-02a?p=e6037a796bd396d8d7d6141c32f87bf3

>>14161440
how were the upanishads edited by brahmans if the upanishads reject precisely that that constitute the brahmans' duties lol

>>14161694
can you expand on how ficino ''distorted'' platonic/neoplatonic texts?

Upanishads discuss the greatest philosophy ever conceived by human minds, but it was used only as an instrument to remember what was already learnt orally. That is pretty evident in their structure. So while I think Yoga philosophy is the best in the world, I don't think Upanishads are the best book ever written.
Yogananda, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Vivekananda are still better writers.

>>14161648
>>14161440
This is complete bullshit, there is no evidence that Brahmins "tampered" wity the Upanishads and changes their meaning from what they originally were. The image you posted does not support that.
>just google brahmanical tampering, brahmanical interpolations and so forth. this is the standard scholarly thesis since at least max muller, and it's trivially demonstrable. it's not a conspiracy, it's just hundreds of years going by and priests having agendas.
Yea it literally is a conspiracy lol, that's why you feel the need to preemptively defend it, that's not something which is believed by most scholars. All the posts you have made in this thread have been a bunch of nonsense repeating half-baked theories that one might see on an amateur blog.
>>14161537
>heard another posters opinion on the Upanishads that the name Upanishad originally was supposed to be translated as the "end" of the vedas, and by extension the end of the caste system
There is no proof of this and it's not at all a position held by academics, it's just baseless conjecture

>>14162054
The token Hindu nationalist has arrived to defend his religion to the death.

What's the Hindu version of taqqiya, anyway?

>>14161440
Holy fucking based. Same with the Gospels.

>>14162058
Are you Chinese? That would explain the self-assured willingness to post completely incorrect claims that anyone familiar with the academic literature on the topic could pick out as false right away. Yes Chang, everyone actually hates the Brahmins, who ruined Hinduism and its scriptures (how convenient to someone looking to discredit Hinduism) and anyone who disagrees with you is a Hindu nationalist.

>>14162054
t. seething Brahmin
enjoy being a slave of Yaldabaoth

>>14162054
the word Vedanta literally means "end of the vedas" anyone who hasnt been brainwashed by Brahminism would interpret that as meaning the vedas were made obsolete by the Upanishads

>>14162058
>>14162122
then answer him and >>14161982

>>14162054
>not at all a position held by academics

well, since last time i posted you a cutting-edge source by a major scholarly press in the last 10 years, covering recent academia, this time i'll post the single most famous and seminal indologist of all time, max muller, being even more direct about the brahmins "brahmanizing" the vedas

so now you're covered for about 150 years of people saying the same shit about your pharisaic religion bro

always remember: hinduism ruined authentic vedic religion. the real indians were doing philosophy and metaphysics before the brahmins showed up and turned it into a sekrit club for priests only

>>14162132
no you stupid idiot, it can be like the culmination of the vedas and the end as the aim, where they lead to, you dumbfuck
the upanishads expressly reject brahmanic rites and attachment to action

>>14162139
>max muller
>academia
>western scholars
off yourself

explain how brahmins edited the upanishads and the upanishads REJECT brahmanic duties
the older vedas were much more sympathetic towards brahmanism than the upanishads

>>14162122
How can you relate an evil gnostic deity from semitic origin with indian philosophy? Are you relating Yaldabaoth with Mara or Yama?

>>14162150
you should maybe read some of those books you're so hostile to, since you have a cartoon conception of history where everyone acts in the same completely transparent way, and nobody has ulterior motives or incentives or biases. kind of like a brahmin actually

here's the 101 "literally everybody knows this" answer to your question. i could have gotten it from any of ten books but i got it from doniger because i know that will piss you off as a hindu nationalist.

>>14162139
on the third page of that pic it says the Vedic literature escaped the remodeling puritianism of the Brahmins, your own source argues against you there and proves you wrong, he only is talking about them editing the Mahabharata there and not the Upanishads. The first picture you posted doesn't say that the Brahmins changed/edited them either. Are you even reading the pictures that you're posting?

>>14162142
>>14162150
Thats the point though, the Upanishads reject the vedas, like the Gospel rejects the old testament.

>>14162215
>Thinks deities arent universal
>Thinks the Demiurge originated specifically from Hebrew mythology

in hinduism, they refer to Yaldabaoth as 'Indra'

>>14162218
she doesn't say anything in that picture about them editing the Upanishads, your original claim remains unproven

>>14162227
>>14162232
once again you demonstrate your cartoon brain. the same thing is said here, too: >>14162218

that's the whole point: doctrinal transmission is fluid. it's not going to go ALL one way OR the other way. with increasing social and cultural pressures, for example the "vulgate" pali canon's availability to the masses, or kshatriya classes getting pissed off, or jains, etc., people were trying to break away from the existing order, but rarely does an order completely shatter. some people broke away, some were remediated and stayed within the fold.

what is the situation of the brahmin today?

>>14162231
are you retarded? neither the upanishads reject the vedas nor the gospel rejects the old testament.
both gospel and upanishads reassure the most profound and ''esoteric'' substance of their older scriptural traditions. they even quote from them

>>14162256
Yes, there is esoteric substance in both the Old testament and the Vedas, but despite how much christians deny it, there are clear changes in the law from the old Testament to the new testament
-Abolishing divorce
-Abolishing an eye for an eye
etc. There are a ton of other similar arguments that Jews would make against jesus "changing" the laws

if these laws were authentically given by God, to Moses there would be no need to change them at all, Gods word, truth, cant be changed right?


the same goes for the Vedas, if the Brahmins duites were important, and divinely given, why would the Upanishads criticise their rites and attatchment to karma? unless the Upanishads came from a higher source of knowledge than the Vedas, and Jesus came from a higher source of Knowledge than Moses

ie. The Plemora, the Aeons

>>14162246
>once again you demonstrate your cartoon brain. the same thing is said here, too
No you stupid chink, all you've done is demonstrate that you don't even read the sources that you cite to support your arguments. You came into this thread claiming that the Brahmins edited the Upanishads and changed what their original meaning was. You posted several pictures from books, none of which supported your arguments. All the pictures you posted talked about Brahmin cultural influence or them influencing the Mahabharata and Puranas but nowhere in any of the photos you posted is it asserted that the Brahmins edited the Upanishads, which would have been highly difficult to do as the Upanishads were part of the orally memorized Veda that the Brahmin class would memorize and pass down to the next generation, such an editing would have required a massive pan-Indian conspiracy. In this photo here you cited Max Muller >>14162139 but in the third page of the picture he says that the sacredness of the Vedic literature means that it escaped editing by the Brahmins. You have failed to post a single good source backing up your argument of the Upanishads being edited, the "most famous and seminal Indologist" that you cited btfo your own claims.

>>14161694
>after all, if something is right, it doesn't matter whether nagarjuna was fudging who he heard it from or incorrect in thinking
True, but Nagarjuna was wrong, his logic in the MMK was destroyed by a philosophy professor (pic related)

>>14161999
With Christian bullshit
For example the Platonic ideas become “angelic intellects”, etc.

>>14162280
That said, I dont actually believe Yaldabaoth is evil, I subscribe more to the Neoplatonic and Valentinian Gnostic worldview that Yaldabaoth is a tool or a force of nature, used to establish the world based on the divine pattern (thats the plemora, or Platos world of Archetypes)

Yaldabaoth being an "evil God" is more of a meme and a misinterpretation by groups of Sethians that still exists today

>>14162300
damn i really gotta read all that shit don't i

>>14162291
seething schizo

why would i be a chink, because i mentioned chinese philosophy one time while also mentioning ten other things? hindu nationalism makes you dumb dude, you react to the first thing you see in any post and immediately melt down

brahmins are the shittiest most legalistic group in history and ruined hinduism, deal with it.

>>14162291
Only a Hindu Nationalist would be shilling Brahminism this hard

>>14162280
Maybe they were all wrong.

>>14162363
Or they were all right.
I see lots of the same concepts in basically every single religion, the biggest one I see in every religion without fail is the renunciation of worldly wealth, anti-materialism, idealism etc

You know something is true if the krauts and anglos attack it endlessly.
>b-b-but max muller said
Go fuck yourselves

Can someone explain this thread to me? What’s going on?

>>14162306
oh yeah thats based

>>14162400
BASED

>>14162380
I couldn't find this pattern in all believe systems. It's not possible to find it in Charvaka, Ajnana, Democriteanism, Epicurism or Mohism.

That said, I've found 4 different "arché" in different cultures, some of which mixed with time.

Those arché and their civilitas are:

Logos / Greek
Covenant / Semitic
Dhamma / Indian
Li / Chinese

>>14162400
>>14162461
>hindu nationalist can't get any friends so starts samefagging himself

BASED XD BRAHMANS ARE EPIC!!!

>>14162447
Guenonfag is mad.

>>14162322
>>14162330
lol i knew you werent serious

>>14162561
as serious as all the sources proving that shruti has been constantly edited and brahmanical tampering is evident at every level of the vedic corpus, including the upanishads

>>14162589
>as serious as all the sources proving that shruti has been constantly edited a
what sources? the only ones posted in this thread have discussed the editing of smriti texts and not sruti. There hasn't been a single piece of evidence for tampering with sruti texts posted in this thread yet. You were already called out for this and just ignored it.

>>14162620
blatant lying and refusing to read, typical hindu nationalist

If someone edited the vedas it was most likely those filthy anglos

>>14162641
actually true, they did that too. most modern hinduism is very heavily influenced by anglo and german scholarship and occultism. hinduism was basically reinvented on a european foundation in the 19th century

>>14162627
where in the pictures you posted does it mention editing sruti?

>>14161724
mahayana probably did fabricate a lot of their sutras but that doesn’t change that they by and large have a much, much better understanding of dependent origination and emptiness than traditional Theravada which all too often adopts naive realism

>>14161128
yup

>>14161648
The image is useless unless you cite the book and page numbers. In any case, it says brahmanic material was constantly re-worked, not that there were ever some pristine Upanishads that the wicked Brahmins covered up. Simarly for the Itihasas, they are hypothesised to originate as groups of Kshatriya narratives that accrued together and took up theological material from Brahmins along the way. The critical editions of the Mahabharata and Ramayana both say there is no perfect original of either text, they are highly composite. You're peddling new age nonsense that claims to know the "real" meaning behind ancient texts, without any consistent way to extract this supposedly pure original theology.

Does anyone know of a quality copy of the Kama Sutra. Both the sex stuff and the other stuff on courtship, health, attraction, etc.

>>14163187
Alain Danielou's translation is unabriged and was generally well-received from what I've read about it, although I havn't read it myself

>>14163187
Oxford World's Classics has an unabridged translations with traditional illustrations

>>14161154
Seems awfully heavy-handed. I suppose that's why it became so popular after Romanticism and with the fascists.

>>14163256
>>14163257
thank you. many blessings

>>14162280
>the same goes for the Vedas, if the Brahmins duites were important, and divinely given, why would the Upanishads criticise their rites and attatchment to karma?
Because as Shankara explains in his works, the Vedas contain different teachings which are suited to fit the various types of people who study them. For people who are still concerned with attaining worldy ends, aquiring a wife, sons, cattle, the heavens etc the Vedas prescribe rites and rituals to be undertaken in order to attain those things. For someone who has grown tired of transmigratory existence and who seeks final liberation the Upanishads teach the path to reach it. There is really not any huge contradictions or problems concerning the Vedas and Upanishads and if they come from different people or if they disagree or whatever, it only seems that way if you are ignorant of the Hindu commentarial tradition and don't realize that they already answered all these sorts of questions long ago.

Can someone give me a very very short summary of the Upanishads and what actionable lessons it teaches?

Here's a degenerate female in return

>>14161128
Maybe. its subjective.

>>14161501
>Brahmins had to memorise them
Doesnt that make it even more likely? Its kinda hard to twist a source when you have primary written evidence, everything after that writing can only change in interpretation of the words or the destruction of it. While if you are just remembering it orally, its not that hard to change "seems" to "is" for your own personal reasons or fancy, even if it is not intentionally malicious.

IMO The best way to maintain a doctrine over time is too both write it down and use oral tradition. than the two can cross examine each other to detect meaning shift. The oral tradition protects the prose in the short hand if someone destroys the original copies, and the written protects it from temporal word shift by the orators.

But all and all, Brahman kinda have a vested interest in shaping the words to their design.

>>14163597
"The Upanishads ... are among the noblest and most inspired books in the world; in them, the whole of the Indian wisdom is already contained; later teachers could but expand and comment on them, but in no way departed from this original treasure of wisdom." ... "The Upanishads teach the wisdom of Atma, the Supreme Self of all beings; the same divine Life which Philo of Alexandria later called the Logos, the Divine Mind, the collective spiritual consciousness of our universe. They tell us that, while each of us may seem to be a wanderer and exile, lonely, desolate in our world of shadow and of sorrow, we are in reality neither alone nor desolate, but undivided, unseparated rays of the Universal Self, the Logos. What is needed to secure our immortality—an immortality which is still conditional, until this victory is won—is the realization of our oneness with the Supreme Self. The Upanishads show how, step by step, we may mount the golden stairs; they tell us what we must leave behind; what we must gain, as we tread the small, old path; what we must achieve; with the promise that we shall in the fullness of time be initiated into the fullness of that eternal, universal Supreme Self of all beings. "The whole aim of their teachings is this: to point the path by which the personal self may win immortality and divinity, by becoming united with the Higher Self, which always possessed immortality and divinity." - Charles Johnston

>>14163724
Ok so it tells you that

>Immortality is possible
>But you have to actually do stuff to attain it

What exactly do you have to do?

>>14163597
God exists. Everything belongs to Him. The soul is immortal, but that doesn't justify killing others.

>>14163741
Yes that's fine and all but tell me what the Upanishads say you must do to become immortal

>>14163751
They say you have to seek out and receive initiation/instruction by a realized teacher, who shows you the way. Then it's up to you to follow it.

>>14161440
This is probably accurate. We may never know for sure.

What we DO know is that the later literature highjacked the philosophy of the upanishads for sectarian purposes.

The same goes for samkhya, yoga, tantra... all original philosophical and spiritual systems that got engulfed by the great Hindu blob.

Btw any (so-called) “upanishads” that is not one of the principle upanishads is a late sectarian fabrication trying (and failing) to mimic the spirit original principle ones.

>>14161142
desu desu desu

>>14161922
Very well written, I'm genuinely starting to believe that the Vedic culture was the most advanced, and it's appalling to see how much it's overlooked literally everywhere, including Bharat (India).

>>14161440
The beauty of it is that you then have only yourself to truly rely on for the spiritual path. Not some teachings

>>14161440
based skeptic

>>14164035
>What we DO know is that the later literature highjacked the philosophy of the upanishads for sectarian purposes.
proof?

>>14164035
>the great Hindu blob.

Good way to put it. It's sad when one broad and shallow religion or culture encompasses a bunch of other smaller but deeper ones. Hinduism would be fine if it hadn't blobbed out and smothered everything good in Indian traditions, only letting glimmers of their original brilliance through.

>>14163256
>>14163307
Danielou's translation gets heavily heavily shit on these days.

>>14164326
Vedic culture was the original Aryan population that's why. Brahminism is dravidian, it's the corrupted local folk religions. That's why modern India is so dirty and backward.

>>14164628
So is Bvddhism and possibly Vedanta essentially retvrning to Aryan tradition?

>>14164628
>Brahminism is dravidian
its the opposite you absolute retard, all the genetic studies shows high Aryan/indo-european/steppe anceatry in the Brahmins compared to the other castes, there have been studies showing that the higher up someone is in caste the more aryan ancestry they tend to have. Brahmins were responsible for the spread of Aryan languages like Sanskrit amid non-IE speaking regions, Brahmins were a major "aryanizing" force in India over its history.

>>14164647
When Europeans do it yes, because they can purify it of the H*ndu element.

>>14164655
Lmao literally a
>Bro I'm ancient Aryan, look at my skin!!! Look!! I'm basically white bro!!!
LARPer like in the old tales

>>14164603
>Hinduism would be fine if it hadn't blobbed out and smothered everything good in Indian traditions, only letting glimmers of their original brilliance through.
where is the proof that Hinduism has done this? I see no signs of that being true

>>14164686
>>14164531
>>14162054
>proof? proof? where is proof?

So many resentment-filled people flooded into this thread like flies to honey. You guys would do well to read some Hindu philosophy, you might learn a thing or two.

>>14161128
That setting looks comfy af

>>14161154
Thank you, Anon. It's great to discover this for the first time.

Just so you know, max muller, who was the first peddler for the "aryan invasion" propaganda, later regretted his position and even glorified the vedas in his last book.

>>14165424
You're welcome. That was from Adi Shankara's commentary on the Katha Upanishad. You can read the whole thing here, it's one of his best commentaries.

https://estudantedavedanta.net/Eight-Upanisads-Vol-1.pdf

>>14165524
The aryan invasion is objectively true though, except people prefer to say migration than invasion.

>The thread that killed Guenon
Good riddance, time to move on pseuds

For all the anons shitting on Hinduism, tell me, why is the caste system so bad?

Hard Mode: No Marxist or Foucauldian analysis on class or power relations.

>>14165649
>if I make up a bunch of bullshit about Brahmins being muh evil wicked boogeyman who ruined muh pristine Upanishads and ruined Hinduism then I can get everyone to not like Hinduism anymore or something...
you'll have to try harder than that

>>14165692
It’s not. It’s perfect.

>>14165692
Because it makes them shudras. From the perspective of varnashram, even people who own a business are shudras. (No, they're not vaishyas; those are the landlords, owners of cattle, merchants). They all want to be "higher caste" but they wouldn't last a day as brahmins

>>14165692
It seems to ossify the worst arrangements of a community

>>14163713
>While if you are just remembering it orally, its not that hard to change "seems" to "is" for your own personal reasons or fancy, even if it is not intentionally malicious.
That's the thing though, you had people all independently orally conserving and passing down the Upanishads across the whole Indian sub-continent for a very long time. Especially before modern communications, it would have been virtually impossible to organize a way for everyone across the sub-continent to all implement the same change in the texts, let alone getting them all to agree to it in the first place. If people had tried there would have been many different copies of the Upanishads surviving but this is not the case. There are a few recensions of a couple of the larger and older ones like the Brihadaranyaka but the changes between the recensions are fairly minor and don't impact the central ideas of the text. To anyone who is familiar with the circumstances of the oral transmission of the Vedas and Upanishads the notion that the Brahmins edited the texts over time for power reasons or whatever is self-evidently absurd. The poster who made that claim just has some weird personal animus towards Hinduism and was looking for any avenue to express that feeling, no matter if the underlying factual claim he was making was bullshit.

>>14165755
this
>>14165763
If they are born as a Shudra, they have only themselves to blame, one's actions in one's past life determine the circumstances of one's birth. Furthermore, in practice being a Shudra isn't even bad and just like medieval European peasants many of them had better lives with more sex, more leisure time, more profound spirituality etc than modern-day wageslaves. The prohibitions about not marrying or dining with Brahmins is far outweighed by the fact that Shudras have to obey way less prohibitions than the upper-castes and face much less severe punishments than them for breaking rules according to the Hindu texts that deal with caste rules like the Dharma-sutras. In the Dharma-sutras the amount of responsibilities and rules that one has to follow as well as the magnitude of punishment one receives for wrong-doing both increase the further one goes up in caste, contrary to the misconception of caste as a system of oppression or control by Brahmins.
>>14165768
How so?

>>14165692
It's bad because, as Buddha and Mahavira noticed, it's not based on spiritual critea. The castes must exist, but it must be related to an ascendant path crossing the river of Maya until reaching an absolute fullfilment through moksha or nippana.

>>14165890
How what you describe is not the case of Hinduism?

>>14165890
That's more or less what >>14165869 was getting at.

>>14162300
>his logic in the MMK was destroyed by a (western) philosophy professor
but you just said that western scholars are not legitimate not too long ago, you can't even be logically consistent mr guenonfag

>>14165890
> it's not based on spiritual critea
Not directly but it is indirectly, and this has to be admitted by the Buddhists and Jains themselves according to their own view of rebirth. According to Hindus, Buddhists and Jains, one's destination after death is determined by the actions/karma/tendencies that one had in life, if one behaves more virtuously etc than one is attracted to a more auspicious/beneficial birth circumstance according to the teachings of all three religions. In most cases, being a Brahmin would be a more auspicious birth-circumstance from the perspective of spirituality. Hence, if people are born into a Brahmin family then that implies that they reached a certain level of spiritual attainment in the past life, that they deserve to be there. Furthermore these qualities may still inhere in that person, moreso than the average farmer or trader.

The converse is also true that someone born as a Shudra also deserves to be born one. The notion that every individual in a society can be evaluated and then directed to their proper place in that society based on their level of spirituality at that moment sounds nice but in practice is impossible. Caste by birth is a proxy spiritual criteria as birth is determined by spiritual progress. You can't have it both ways, if you accept as Buddha and Mahavira taught that one's birth follows from one's actions and inclinations then you also have to accept that people ultimately deserve the circumstances of their birth.

>wow the caste system is so based
said the would be Shudra who marvels at the street shitting state of India

>>14164800
t. mentally unstable schizoposter who claims to be so enlightened he constantly flips out when his integrity and knowledge of hinduism is questioned

yea 'a thing or two' indeed

>>14165964
>having no arguments left and defaulting to personal attacks

>>14166013
>WUAAAAAH STOP ATTACKING ME IM NOT A SHITSKIN I SWEAR AND BY BRAHMA INDIA WILL BECOME A SUPERPOWER NEXT MONTH

>>14161440
this 100%

but to add further, brahmanism was merely a reaction to the growing influence of the pre-buddhist/pre-jain Shramana movement. The brahmins obviously didn't want to relinquish their power and status but simply could not compete with the philosophy and metaphysical prowess of Shramana which lead to the schism between the old IE-based Veda and the newer metaphysical thought of the Upanishads.

It is one of the reasons the rishis hid the Upanishads AMONG the Vedas during oral transmission so as to confuse their adherents into thinking the Upanishads descended completely from the Vedas when it was clear as day that there was no correlation between the sacrificial observance and deity reverence of the Vedas to the absolute monism and serene inwardliness of the Upanishads.

Like the other guy said, it is the same in Christianity with the ~70 year gap between the crucifixion where the apolistic fathers likely tampered with the new testament and the same in Islam with the burning of all known Qurans except for the Uthmanic compilation of the Quran (which happened to be the one that was, you guessed it, owned by Caliph Uthman).

There is no such thing as the 'original text'.

>>14165869
>the amount of responsibilities and rules that one has to follow as well as the magnitude of punishment one receives for wrong-doing both increase the further one goes up in caste, contrary to the misconception of caste as a system of oppression or control by Brahmins
I know that. That's why i said they wouldn't last a day as brahmins. They love the taste of british cock
https://youtu.be/5gpd8KbvPh8

>>14163891
Ok

How do I find a "realized teacher"?

What must you actually do to follow the way?

>>14166143
>but to add further, brahmanism was merely a reaction to the growing influence of the pre-buddhist/pre-jain Shramana movement

"Patrick Olivelle, a professor of Indology and known for his translations of major ancient Sanskrit works, states in his 1993 study that contrary to some representations, the original Śramaṇa tradition was a part of the Vedic one.[35] He writes,

Sramana in that context obviously means a person who is in the habit of performing srama. Far from separating these seers from the vedic ritual tradition, therefore, śramaṇa places them right at the center of that tradition. Those who see them [Sramana seers] as non-Brahmanical, anti-Brahmanical, or even non-Aryan precursors of later sectarian ascetics are drawing conclusions that far outstrip the available evidence.

—Patrick Olivelle, The Ashrama System[36]
According to Olivelle, and other scholars such as Edward Crangle, the concept of Śramaṇa exists in the early Brahmanical literature.[24][25] The term is used in an adjectival sense for sages who lived a special way of life that the Vedic culture considered extraordinary. However, Vedic literature does not provide details of that life.[37] The term did not imply any opposition to either Brahmins or householders. In all likelihood states Olivelle, during the Vedic era, neither did the Śramaṇa concept refer to an identifiable class, nor to ascetic groups as it does in later Indian literature.[38] Additionally, in the early texts, some pre-dating 3rd-century BCE ruler Ashoka, the Brahmana and Śramaṇa are neither distinct nor opposed. The distinction, according to Olivelle, in later Indian literature "may have been a later semantic development possibly influenced by the appropriation of the latter term [Sramana] by Buddhism and Jainism".[22]"

>>14166262
>(((western scholars)))
Dropped

>>14166402
Olivelle is Sri Lankan

>hindufags literally defending the caste system ITT

And they wonder why their country is fucked.

>>14161128
No they're pretty Obviously mediocre pieces of moral philosophy

>>14166566
By birth only. He’s American by nationality, studied under tutelage of a western scholar and received his credentials in the west (Oxford and UPenn). So yes he’s a western scholar.

>>14167104
>NNOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST SUPPORT THE CASTE SYSTEM UNCONDITIONALLY

>>14167491
Hi Guenonfag. Still editing your filenames to avoid being archive searched again, I see.

As always, get some help, and try actually learning Sanskrit instead of being a Neovedanta LARPer.

>>14166143
Yea this kinda makes sense. I’ve always wondered how Hinduism went from mindless Indra praising to realising the absolute from Atman to full blown calendar art Bhakti.

There’s just no chronological consistency and I have yet to find a common thread that retroactively binds Hinduism together.

>>14167817
>using the R word in his presence
subtle

>>14167817
Coomaraswamy demonstrates in his book 'perception of the vedas' that many of the concepts and ideas people assume only first appeared in the Upanishads are actually poetically expressed all throughout the Vedas. The Upanishads are just a further elaboration and specification of what's already there in the Vedas.

>>14168115
That’s retcon though

>>14168115
That’s retcon though.

Also the Vedas are not an ecstatic collection of texts. It also has “geological layers” of texts, with some books being written much later than others, as evidenced by linguistic analysis.

>>14164603
A Buddhist scholar once wrote, that no matter what is the dominant religion of India, as long as the Brahmins have the monopoly on the priesthood (of said religion).

The analogues of Samkhya, Yoga, Upanishads, Tantra, would all be considered heretical under Christianity and suppressed or relegates to the underground of “occult” or theosophical literature. Such is not the case in Hinduism. The priesthood there used a different strategy, which is to engulf all possible heretical sects and harmonize then with orthodoxy.

>what’s this new teaching? Oh yes, we believe that too, and btw the founder of your school was an avatar o Vishnu or something

They tried to pull that shit with the Buddha! Can there be a system that is more openly opposed to Brahmanical orthodoxy than Buddhism? But no, hurr durr the Buddha was actually an avatar o Vishnu. Fast forward to the 20th century and you see ISKON founder trying that same shit again with Jesus!

Rama, Krishna, jagannatha were probably local cults that were incorporated by a similar process of fagocitosis.

tl;dr Hinduism is a syncretic, ever expanding blob with the Brahmins at the helm

>>14168181
One example. The Samkhya system expressively denies the existence of a deity (Ishvara). Fast forward you see orthodox Hindu texts like the Bhagavad Gita, and even Shaivite agamas claim the Samkhya system then turn around immediately and say yeah, and such and such is Ishvara. They give zero fucks! It’s like they never fathomed that one day someone would come and critically read the texts.

>>14168181
>>14168214
Interesting, thanks

a good answer to someone asking above how the Brahmins can be in charge if Upanishads criticize Brahmins also

>>14167104
Varna ashrama is transcendental you commie. It's always "in". Even in your degenerate hyper consumerist society. Real socialism is dividing people according to their intelligence and skills

This is one of the best threads here in years

>>14168181
Interesting dichotomy between Hinduism and Christianity. Both will absorb local cults. But the difference is that Christianity does it in order to ultimately erase all traces of the local cults through systematic destruction of the; at least, exoteric doctrines/rituals over the ages. Hinduism will absorb them and make them parts of the whole.

>>14168236
No, Hinduism will absorb them and make them a sanitized trivialized lump that still supports useless Brahmin "leadership"

>>14168115
>Mighty is Indra, yea supreme; greatness be his, the Thunderer: Wide as the heaven extends his power. Send to us bounty manifold, O Indra, worthy of our wish, For power supreme is only thine. O Indra, stimulate thereto us emulously fain for wealth, And glorious, O most splendid One.

vs

>'When one perceives, then one understands. One who does not perceive, does not understand. Only he who perceives, understands. This perception, however, we must desire to understand.'

uh yea 'poetically' expressed....

>>14164628
>

>>14168181
No, no; retardo. There were two Buddhas. The one born in a brahmin family is Vishnu. The Buddha of buddhism, Siddhartha Gautama, was born in a kshatriya family, in nepal
https://youtu.be/unHZeSQ0Lqg

>>14168115
That is btw the same exact rhetorical strategy that Neoplatonists used with Homer and Hesiod.

>Homer actually is (Alexandrian Neo)Platonism in poetical disguise bro!
>but what Plato banning Homer from the Republic?
>I-It’s because people just don’t understand because they are brainlets like u!!

>>14168239
Did you just describe christianity?

>>14168272
OH NO NO NO

The extreme level of retcon!

>>14168289
It's okay man, you don't have to save face on an anonymus website.

>>14168315
>no ur retarded
> The Buddha has been important to Hinduism since the ancient times, given his teachings and royal support. The Hindu views (Brahmanical tradition) for the Buddha have neither been consistent nor constant. They have ranged from actively contesting the Buddhist premises and theology to sharing or adopting terminology, concepts as well as more recently, the persona of Siddhartha as someone who was born in and matured into the Buddha in a Brahmanical system.[8] One such integration is through its mythology, where in Vaishnava Puranas, the Buddha is adopted as the ninth avatar of Vishnu.[8]

>>14168181
>The priesthood there used a different strategy, which is to engulf all possible heretical sects and harmonize then with orthodoxy.
Would you rather them have persecuted and suppressed them like the Abrahamics did?
>They tried to pull that shit with the Buddha! Can there be a system that is more openly opposed to Brahmanical orthodoxy than Buddhism?
In the Puranas that describe Buddha as an avatar they actually say that he taught a bunch of bullshit fake teachings to distract and waylay some demons, they don't say that Buddhism is good. Not everyone is aware of this and some Hindus see Buddhism as good but the Puranas which say Buddha is an avatar say that his actual teachings were garbage.

>>14168315
> Buddha is considered as an avatar of Vishnu, by traditions within Hinduism. Buddhists traditionally do not accept the Buddha to be a Vishnu avatar.[2][1] The adoption of Buddha may have been a way to assimilate Buddhism into the fold of Hinduism.[2][3] Much like Hinduism's adoption of the Buddha as an avatar, Buddhism legends too adopted Krishna in their Jataka tales, claiming Krishna (Vishnu avatar) to be a character whom Buddha met and taught in his previous births.[9][note 2] The adoption of the Buddha in texts relating to Hindu gods, and of Hindu gods in Buddhist texts, is difficult to place chronologically. According to Alf Hiltebeitel and other scholars, some of the stories in Buddha-related Jataka tales found in Pali texts seem slanderous distortions of Hindu legends, but these may reflect the ancient local traditions and the complexities of early interaction between the two Indian religions.[5]

>>14168272
>Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist. -Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.24

so this is the so called brahmin buddha? the one deluding people into atheism? lmao

>>14168315
>>14168324
>>14168327
I guess the whole story about the Buddha being an avatar of Vishnu is so embarrassingly regarded that Brahmins realizes it might reflect badly on them so they are changing the narrative now.

Too late!

>>14168325
>Would you rather them have persecuted and suppressed them like the Abrahamics did?
No I wouldn’t. Of course persecuting and suppressing is the worst of the two. I’d rather they’d be honest.

>>14168327
In hindu puranas, buddha is said to be born in keekat(gaya) on a brahmin household. In buddhists own texts, buddha is born in nepal on a kshatriya household.

>>14168239
seething Buddhistcuck detected

>>14168333
I mean it was bad enough that some Brahmins were caught plagiarizing Buddhist ontology (Gaudapada, Shankara, etc) but they couldn't help resorting to literal wewuzzing the Buddha.

>>14168331
You can't into reading comprehension? "For the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist".
He's deluding the already atheist. Not making new ones

>>14168348
>seething Buddhistcuck detected

>>14161128
No, don't be silly.

>>14168361
Why doesn’t Chad Vishnu just draw his discus and chop their heads off?

>>14168343
gee I wonder which one is true, the one that predates the other by hundreds of years or vice versa....

>>14168357
You're just repeating bullshit you've heard without researching yourself.
>plagiarazing from buddhists
The very description of buddha you posted (long ears) is in the agni purana!

>>14161440
>same prob with the buddhist canons

If you mean later purely Mahayana texts, maybe. But when it comes to large swaths of the Pali Canon there is a huge degree of overlap with the Chinese Agamas, Sanskrit fragments, and Tibetan translations. Those sutras were most likely disseminated pretty early on and managed to stay largely unchanged (some passages are in slightly different order or clearly inserted from other sutras though). This can be inferred because you have multiple sources from a large geographic distribution across nearly a thousand years. Now, it is entirely possible that the early canonical sutras were altered after the death of the Buddha, but that would had to occurred within the first two or three hundred years while they were still being transmitted orally.

>>14168376
Because it's kali yuga. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was about to behead two atheists, but Shri Nityananda stopped him because he might as well kill the whole population. The whole world is degenerate now

>neovedantists ITT right now

>>14168405
this

not too mention there is outside correspondence in the form of Pyrrhonism, which ported Buddhist ideas like 3 marks of existence and 2 truths doctrine from India during Pyrrho's visit to the subcontinent alongside Alexander the great.

>>14161128
yes

>yfw Buddhists are so eternally butthurt about Hindu thinkers btfoing Buddhist teachings and vanquishing Buddhism from India that they are unable to see a thread about Hinduism without descending into a frenzy of angry trolling, bait-posting, ad-hominem posting, writing long angry rants etc

"From whatever new points of view the Buddha's system is tested with reference to its probability, it gives way on all sides, like the walls of a well, dug in sandy soil. It has, in fact, no foundation whatever to rest upon and hence the attempts to use it as a guide in the practical concerns of life are mere folly. Moreover Buddha, by propounding the three mutually contradicting systems, teaching respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of ideas only and general nothingness, has himself made it clear that he was a man given to make incoherent assertions or else that hatred of all beings induced him to propound absurd doctrines by accepting which they would become thoroughly confused…Buddha’s doctrine has to be entirely disregarded by all those who have a regard for their own happiness."

Adi Shankara - Brahma Sutra Bhasya 2.2.32.

https://youtu.be/omM3vnHsVik

>>14168499
>quote is actually btfo himself
so this is the 'mighty' shankara....

>>14168500
>posting irrelevant street shitters
Go read a book pajeet

>>14168250
The Vedas may actually be better than the gay af Upanishads

>>14168512
>quote is actually btfo himself
how?

>>14168499
>writing long angry rants etc
t. projecting ved*ntoid

The supreme reign of the Advaitins on /lit/ is clearly over. The Buddhists are striking back.

But who will come out on top?

guenonfag and his neovedanta bullshit flailing desperately ITT

i wish this board had a real advaitin, they are at least interesting. guenon might as well be ISKCON. probably is.

>>14168603
The Noble Buddha preemptively refuted Vedanta when he first turned the Wheel of Dharma and when he first struck the Drum of Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings.

>>14165952
This is the correct caste system:

AStream-enterer(Sotāpanna) is free from:

1. Identity view

2. Attachment to rites and rituals

3. Doubt about the teachings

AOnce-returner(Sakadāgāmin) has greatly attenuated:

4. Sensual desire

5. Ill will

ANon-returner(Anāgāmi) is free from:

4. Sensual desire

5. Ill will

AnArahantis free from all of the five lower fetters and the five higher fetters, which are:

6. Attachment to the four meditative absorptions, which have form (rupa jhana)

7. Attachment to the four formless absorptions (ārupa jhana)

8. Conceit

9. Restlessness

10. Ignorance

>>14168499
Buddhism has fared much better in the modern era than has Hinduism, though. I grew up in a Hindu household but I consider Buddhism, at least in it's originally-intended form, to be far more sophisticated as a spiritual culture than the immense fog of conceptuality which Hinduism requires you to see the world through. Quite simply, there is absolutely no need to believe or know of deities in order to self-awaken, and Buddhism's phenomenological approach remains far more innovative than the praise-the-deities-endlessly culture that Hinduism is claim to. Sure, it adds color to culture, and I enjoyed partaking in it growing up. Very lovely stories, and beautiful artwork around these figures. But they only hinder one from true awakening, by splitting the psyche into a multiplicity of entities, creating the illusion of a duality between worshipper-worshipped, and thereby distancing one from reaching the state of psychical singularity necessary to eventually reach higher states of consciousness. And the Buddha deserves plenty of credit for creating the first mind-oriented culture that history shows to us, which is a very impressive feat in my book. It's not by coincidence or politics that Buddhism, rather than Hinduism, has become so prominent in the modern West, being in line with the sensibilities of more educated individuals, whose spirituality revolves around understanding and augmenting their own mind, rather than worshipping entities outside of them.

Just my opinion, though. I have nothing against Hinduism, I merely consider it less sophisticated than the Buddha's transformation of it.

>>14168919
This post of mine is actually pretty unnecessary, reading it back. Please ignore what I've written here. I personally prefer Buddhism to Hinduism, but both are based, especially Advaita of the latter. Deities and rituals aren't my thing, and the animal sacrifice practise of ancient Vedic culture is the height of barbarism.

>>14168771
Shankara destroyed Buddhism, Buddha never mentioned Vedanta or the Upanishads in the PC and never offered any criticism or rebuttal of them

>>14169210
>Buddha never mentioned Vedanta or the Upanishads in the PC
lel Vedanta didn't fucking exist back then

>>14169233
The Upanishads are Vedanta

>>14169210
Why would Buddha bother with an inferior philosophy?


>>14169233
The absolute state of westerners talking about vedic philosophy.

Remember when guenonfag went so far as to roleplay as a "former buddhist" just to shit on it?

>>14164326
>Very well written
nigger i never write shit. im a fucking nobody and i will die a nobody

https://www.osho.com/osho-online-library/osho-talks/love-upanishads-no-religion-d5961c62-049?p=12b08b1d4197f2da3deeccd12328db65

>>14169261
No. Vedanta is the exegesis of the Upanishads in a systematized way. Even if you take the Brahma Suttra to be the beginning of Vedanta then it was long after the Buddha.
>>14169331
>The absolute state of westerners talking about vedic philosophy.
It's true though

Since there are so many Buddhists in this thread... How would Buddhism respond to this?
>the relative is unintelligible and impossible without the absolute, the contingent without the necessary, change without the unchanging, and multiplicity without unity; ‘relativism’ is self-contradictory

>>14169486
Buddhism and hinduism or the vedas has nothing to do with the Upanishads niggerfaggot fuckface

>>14168343
>not THAT Buddha, the other Buddha, you know, the one no one has ever fucking heard about (because we made him up)??
The absolute state

>>14169491
Don't care.

>>14169524
Good.

Why buddhists hate sanatana dharma so much, bros? :'(

>>14169331
>Why would Buddha bother with an inferior philosophy?
So he could have maybe avoided having Buddhism be vanquished from India and heavily discredited as a result of its teachings being exposed as illogical and inconsistent by Shankara and other Hindu thinkers, which is what happened in real life.

>>14169442
Vedanta insofar as it means the culmination of Vedic teachings can and is applied both to the historical school as well as the Upanishads themselves. Hindu thinkers in their writings including Shankara refer to the Upanishads as Vedanta. In any case, there were enough Upanishads existing before Buddha which formulated their ideas clearly enough that Buddha had a large amount of material from them that he could have attempted to criticize, but he never did. Instead he just recycled their metaphysical scheme with a few twists and copy and pasted their descriptions of Brahman/Atman for Nirvana. Following his example, not a single Buddhist thinker has ever been able to present an in-depth criticism or refuttal of Advaita, nor have they been able to answer his refuttals of various Buddhist doctrines as incoherent and garbage. Instead they continue teaching the same teachers and doctrines that Shankara already exposed as nonsense like Dharmakirti, they just pretend that he was never btfo.

>>14161694
>>14161694
Incredibly based poster, keep on keeping on

>>14169565
>>14169565
>>14169565
>Why buddhists hate sanatana dharma so much, bros? :'(


The word sanatan means eternal, and dharma means Tao, the law, the ultimate law. "Aes dhammo sanantano," Buddha repeats again and again: "This is the eternal law of life." But by sanatan dharma the shankaracharya means Hindu religion. Hindus think that their religion is the eternal religion: that is sheer nonsense.

Religiousness is eternal, but no religion is eternal. Every religion is born and dies in its own time. No religion is beginningless and no religion is endless. Everything that is born in time is bound to die sooner or later, and it is good that it dies because it creates space for something new to arise. Sanatan dharma - eternal religion - cannot be identified with any religion in particular.

Jainas believe that their religion is far older than the religion of the Hindus, and it may be far older because their first tirthankara, Adinatha, is remembered in the Rig Veda, the first Hindu scripture, with great respect. That shows two things: that Adinatha must have already been an established, accepted spiritual leader; he must have preceded the Rig Veda, and the Rig Veda is the ancientmost scripture of the Hindus. Jainas say their religion is far older, but older does not mean eternal.

Thousands of religions have existed on the Earth and have died, and when they were alive they had millions of followers, but now they have completely disappeared. The followers have disappeared, the priests have disappeared, their gods have disappeared. When they were alive, they also used to think they were eternal. But whatsoever happens in time always dies; nothing can be eternal in time.

https://www.osho.com/osho-online-library/osho-talks/religion-no-religion-adinatha-a6b5b915-328?p=44753059bb052db3ba4d20000ea8f668

>>14169606
>he must have preceded the Rig Veda, and the Rig Veda is the ancientmost scripture of the Hindus.
Nooo you can’t say that the Vedas are historical texts!

The four Vedas are eternal, hailing from the four mouths of Brahma (or are they compiled into four volumes in the Kali Yuga by an Avatar of Vishnu? The Puranas can’t make up their mind!)

>>14169632
But never mind anyway because the Vedas only worship the “demigods”, never mention Krishna, and Vishnu and Rudra are minor characters, even though they are supposed to be the main guys in the much later Hinduism, and we don’t quite know what to make of that, so we pay lip service to the Vedas but completely ignore them.

What Buddhist texts are the best for vedantist to read?

Buddhism > Vedanta
Why? Because Buddhism is actually exportable.
>Brahman is the source from which the world came into existence, in whom it inheres and to which it returns. The only source for the knowledge of this Brahman is the Sruti or the Upanishads.

Do you need to learn Tamil or something to fully appreciate Indian literature? Because you definitely need to learn Arabic to full appreciate the Koran because the grammar of the language is a huge part of the text.

Cant we all just be happy we're following dharma?

>>14169810
>what is yoga?

>>14169825
I like all Dharmic religions and philosophies. They are far superior do the Judaic spirit of Abrahamic religions and Abrahamic secular philosophies like Marxism, Positivism...

What is the difference between Turiya and Atman/Brahman?

A common attack on the Maya doctrine by people like Jay Dyer is that if the world is an illusion then the realization that the world is an illusion and that you're Atman/Brahman is done within that illusion and can therefore not be trusted. How do Advaitins respond to that?

Here is one of his videos where he talks about it. Skip to 2:31 for the talk to begin.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q-O5doJ1_8

>>14169598
In real life the buddhist reigns were invaded by white huns. I could argue that 1/3 of population follows Islam, and they're weren't "convinced". History shows that violence was the instrument for the survival of most traditions. In case of jains, they only survived because they're ultimately harmless.

>>14169941
>dude what if evil genius
Fuck off

>>14169941
Ultimatelynyou need faith in the words of the liberated masters who have experienced non-dual truth.
They claim in this state the idea of something being false is no longer a part of the equation.

Hey /lit/ frens

I am a law student and have done psychedelics a few times, read the gitas etc and generally really enjoy Hindu/vedanta philosophy. I wouldn't classify myself as 'hindu' or 'dharmic' by any means but I have come across the masters in classical indian religion in oxford. has anyone studied this degree or something similar, learned sanskrit, engaged with academia etc? is this recommended? I realistically will do a PHD in political philosophy or religion in the end but if I get a scholarship from oxford (quite possible because I have good grades in my undergrad an am working class). anyone have any recommendations? Ive read this thread and the discussions are quite interesting but I do not pretend to be an expert, I am a pretty proud pseud on this.

>>14169941
I’ll add to that: how does the supreme become deluded? Historically Hinduism has failed to answer that metaphysical question and had to reverse to mythological thinking to give an account of that. There are many versions: in one, manifestation is Leela, a pastime of the deity. He creates Mahamaya in the form of Shakti out of himself, this shakti deludes, not himself per se but lower manifestations of himself, he does it in order to experience himself (which is all there is).

So there you have it. Indian philosophy flew, as it were, too close to the (metaphysical) sun and flinched at it, reverting to mythology.

>>14170031
Off course these cute stories defeat the purpose of Brahman being unqualified pure consciousness-bliss

>>14170031
Buddhism hasn’t fared much better either, though. They dodge that question by refusing to talk about it at all because “it’s not conducive to enlightening”.

>>14170031
>So there you have it. Indian philosophy flew, as it were, too close to the (metaphysical) sun and flinched at it, reverting to mythology.
If you read Nietzsche he actually thinks this is one of the great qualities of the pre-Socratics. They took logic as far as they could up the mountain and then just as they would lose their grounding on the last step, they leapt.

>>14169975
>I am a law student
no one cares nigger faggot
>>14169975
>have done psychedelics a few times
cool nigger i have done 5-meo-dmt more times than your dad fucked ur mom in her pussy
>read the gitas etc and generally really enjoy Hindu/vedanta philosophy
good for u dumb nigger
> I wouldn't classify myself as 'hindu' or 'dharmic' by any means but I have come across the masters in classical indian religion in oxford. has anyone studied this degree or something similar, learned sanskrit, engaged with academia etc? is this recommended? I realistically will do a PHD in political philosophy or religion in the end but if I get a scholarship from oxford (quite possible because I have good grades in my undergrad an am working class). anyone have any recommendations? Ive read this thread and the discussions are quite interesting but I do not pretend to be an expert, I am a pretty proud pseud on this.

what a dumb ass nigger. Uni is full of dumb educated niggers, fuck. Most neurotic fucks go to this place called UNI huh
fuck this gay earth lol

>>14170031
That's where shankara falls apart.
Read ramunaja.

>>14170114
hilarious

>>14170031
Here's my non-mythological answer, which I'm not sure whether it corresponds to Advaita or not. There are two reasons for the state of illusion we are under:
1) a spectrum of consciousness
At bottom there is Pure Consciousness, which is the most fundamental, but there are also relatively shallower states of consciousness above it. The purpose of meditation is to bring your region of attention down to those deeper states which have always been there, but your attentional region was not itself at. People who take heavy psychedelics, like DMT, experience these deeper regions of consciousness. If there was only Pure Consciousness, then the problem wouldn't arise. But the fact is that there is a spectrum, of which the shallowest region brings a "perception" of separation from that Pure Consciousness which is in actuality containing it. And which meditators or drug users realize they never lost contact with.

2) the mind's presence
The mental activity we use to classify our world is not the same as the consciousness which sustains said phenomena. Therefore, the mind can easily say things like "I am under illusion", (or "I am not Pure Consciousness", "I am not alive", "Nothing exists", "I am a dolphin eating potatoes" and all other manners of falsehoods) while the consciousness sustaining that statement is not and cannot be, witnessing it as neutrally as it witnesses anything else. Consciousness is incapable of being deluded, since it is "knowing" itself. The mind can therefore create statements which are untrue, but consciousness, which has no such ability to reorder reality into mistaken arrangements, cannot. The only distinction within that knowing is, as said above, a spectrum of consciousness. Ranging from Purest Consciousness to what might be called "impurest consciousness".

I can't tell if the Hindus think the Five M's are a bad thing or a good thing

>>14170274
I was reading a tantric manuscript and it was basically talking about how you perform these impure things, and then you perform basically punishments on the body afterwards (extreme fasting or religious rites) in order to purify that sin and therefore strengthen your reliance on the divine.

Is this a poor misunderstanding of tantra?

>>14170274
Wtf are the 5 M’s my African American friend?

>>14169975
Psychedelics are a trap. Religion is a fool's game. I would recommend sticking with law or politics and get to reading modern metaphysics.

>>14170274
Christians love/hate sex, drugs, and rocknroll too.

>>14169781
What the Buddha Taught
The Magic of the Mind
heart sutra, diamond sutra
the other prajnaparamita texts
familiarize yourself with the teachings on emptiness by reading works from the madhyamika school

>>14169864
Turiya is Atma/Brahman, it's not a separate entity or force but just part of a conceptual framework (the 4 states) for helping people understand the nature of the Atma. Shankara's commentary on Gaudapada's Karika fully explains the 4 states and their significance.
>>14169941
That's not an issue because Brahman is the absolute reality, to fully know Brahman is to be Brahman. So, the complete realization of the illusionary nature of samsara is simultaneous with the knowledge and attainment of absolute reality. So there is no issue of " if X is unreal and I'm a part of X how can I realize that without said realization being unreal" because during moksha you are understanding or seeing samsara as unreal *from* the perspective of absolute reality, the same reality upon which the illusion was superimposed. You (Atma) were the reality all along, and the unreal is negated, leaving the reality of Atma remaining in it's place.
>>14170031
I can't tell if you just are completely ignorant of what you're talking about or whether you're deliberately lying. Either way, what you said is not true. You shouldn't make such condescending remarks about things you don't understand, it makes you look foolish. In Advaita it's taught that the Supreme Being is not deluded, that Brahman/Atma is completely unaffected by samsara. It is only the mind/intellect in which the illusion of being an embodied being inhere, the Atma observing them is unaffected. When people misunderstand this it's because they're confusing the intellect and the Atma. The Witness is never affected by anything it witnesses and it is always the unchanging field of awareness prior to any and all sensations, pain etc. When people say "I experienced pain, I see my body, that proves the Atma is deluded by maya!" what they forget is that prior to those sensations is the unhanging awarness in which those sensations appear and disappear. Any time you try to pin down or delineate any proof of the Atma being affected it escapes you because the Atma witnesses that thought as an object from the position of being the witnessing subject who is different from it. It's impossible to come up with any valid proof of the Atma being affected because all those proofs are observed by a subject who is separate from them. Any time you try to discern whether the Withess is affected it inevitably involves a subject-object distinction which doesn't prove anything about the subject who is the matter of inquiry. If you want proof Shankara's commentary on Katha in this pic >>14161154 states that the Atma/Brahman is completely unaffected "just as the Sun is not tainted by the ocular and external defects".
>>14170116
I like Ramanuja but virtually every attempt of Ramanuja to prove Shankara as illogical or wrong is based on a misunderstanding of what Advaita teaches, such as that wrongly thinking that Advaita says the Atma is deluded by maya and suffers.

>>14170116
For a brief summary of how the charges of Ramanuja and his disciples against Advaita were wrong and were based on a misunderstanding of Advaita read the first six pages in this picture

>>14170738
without the notion of multiplicity, what is the point in calling its absence the “Self?” If the subject-object, self-world duality is maya, how does the Self remain after there is no more notion of a separate world? Is this not like saying “there can be left without right”? “There can be up without down”? Isn’t the distinction “Self” totally meaningless without relation to a separate object?
This is what I’m having trouble with, although I assume calling ultimate non-dual truth the “Self” is a poetic description solely to inspire people to realize it, more than anything else.

>>14168603
I wonder how the advaitins gained supremacy on /lit/ in the first place?
My guess is that they just had it in them to constantly post about it, while the Buddhists didn’t care to.

>>14170071
Advaita actually answers the question fully by saying that Brahman via it's inscrutable power of Maya projects the illusion of samsara while remaining completely unaffected by said illusion, and that the reason Brahman does so is that it is the very svabhava, or self-nature of Brahman to wield His power of maya. Buddhism does not have an answer for what is the reason for the existence of samsara, ignorance, embodiment etc. Some Theravadins believe that dependent-origination explains it but both Buddhist thinkers like Nagarjuna as well as Vedantists have pointed out that is a garbage explanation that contains too many contradictions and unanswered questions. It seems Buddha only intended for it to be a mechanistic explanation for how ignorance and suffering continue to exist and how they are connected to our thoughts etc but not why they exist to begin with.

Alright finally got 2 hours to myself and some beer.
Gonna work my way through this thread.

>>14170845
>It seems Buddha only intended for it to be a mechanistic explanation for how ignorance and suffering continue to exist and how they are connected to our thoughts etc but not why they exist to begin with.
I’d say that’s dead on. The Buddha’s teaching was prescriptive, not descriptive.
t. Buddhist

>>14170827
It's mostly one guy. Pic related.

>>14170847
Tl;dr is ancient texts aren't completely reliable (go figure)

>>14170911
None of us are achieving moksha in this lifetime anyway

>>14170864
So do you Buddhists; personally, not take a descriptive position? Or do you use Buddha's prescriptive teachings and then form your own opinions on the "why's" through another tradition?

>>14170801
>without the notion of multiplicity, what is the point in calling its absence the “Self?”
Because the Atma is not simply the absence of multiplicity but is "Being, Consciousness, Bliss", which can also be reduced to Bliss as it contains the others implicitly because only an existing entity can experience and be bliss.
>If the subject-object, self-world duality is maya, how does the Self remain after there is no more notion of a separate world?
Because the Self is that pure undifferentiated awareness in which false notions appeared, in which they vanish, and it is the awareness which continues on the same when they no longer arise. Designating this awareness as the Self follows from that it is a self-luminous conscious entity, the same one illuminating our thoughts right now that we mistakenly identify with the intellect. The normal subject-object and self-world distinctions are predicated on the intellect and the egoistic self, these distinctions are appearances caused by maya. The Atma observes these as something separate from them. The self- and subject- in these distinctions that vanish in moksha are only the false-subject/self of the intellect etc not the true-subject of the Atma which observed them. The Atma is not the immediate subject of subject-object distinctions, but the Atma observes subject-object distinctions occurring in the intellect as the transcendental subject who is separate from that distinction of the intellect. The true subject reveals itself when the false subject and object both vanish.
>Is this not like saying “there can be left without right”? “There can be up without down”? Isn’t the distinction “Self” totally meaningless without relation to a separate object?
No, it has relevance because it is applied to the previously mentioned pure undifferentiated Awareness which is self-luminous. That Awareness is it's own Self, or rather it is one and the same, the pure Self comprised of Bliss-Awareness. The term is appropriate since Advaita accepts that Brahman is a conscious entity and not just a metaphor for dissolution into nothingness. That there can be no self or Self without an object seems to be one of those assumptions on which Buddhist philosophy rests that they would prefer not to critically examine because of what it might call into question. For the idea of "self" to be applicable, there only has to be an existing awareness that it can have relevance for. If you really want to understand what I'm talking about though you should just read through Shankara's commentaries, if you keep coming at this from a Buddhist perspective it's probably not going to make sense to you.

>>14171125
have you ever read anything besides shankara in english ?

>>14171188
yes

>>14171000
Please speak for yourself anon.

>>14171196
showing it for once would be nice

>>14171125
could you then say, that the true Subject is the observer of the egoic subject-object distinction? The observer of Maya?

>>14171188
>guenonfag reading anything outside his traditionalist bubble

>>14171253
I pray for your success

>>14171253
I am part African American, part Jew, part Mexican.

I identify as homosexual.

My pronouns are he, she, it, I-like-dicks.

>>14171290
Yes. Maya is also one with the observer but from how you put it I assume you already understand that

I'm a newfag to indian philosophy but I have to say it's kind of telling how the buddhist posters constantly appeal to western academia and the appeal that westerners find in it whenever they attack hinduism. The west is spiritually dead so I'm not sure why anyone would actually use what they say as serious examples . Check out this guy >>14162139
sperging out about brahmins coming up with corrupt interpretations of the vedas while uncritically parroting whatever some westcuck academic has to say. What a fucking retard.

>>14170031
I don't really understand why you consider mythological thinking to be inferior in this case. It seems to me that sometimes something can not be described in any other way than the symbolic nature of mythology, especially when it comes to the true teaching of a doctrine.

>>14171803
>I'm a newfag to indian philosophy but I have to say FUCK WESTERN BUDDHIST POSTERS LONG LIVE GUENONFAG (not him btw but he's based isn't he)

>>14171940
kek

He always does this in every thread, pretends to be an impartial poster who just so happens to use his own talking points and arguments. You could just tell.

>>14170306
>Wtf are the 5 M’s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchamakara

Alcohol, Meat, Fish, Grains (but probably actually means drugs), Sex

>>14171940
I have to say, I've never actually noticed Guenonfag posting before (the only decisive evidence that he even exists being that one meme pic with 20 Guenon threads) but I have noticed the hysterical anti-Guenonfag posting in pretty much every thread. Guess it's just the nature of imageboards for autists to constantly shitfling at each other.

>>14171952
Sorry, I don't hang around these threads enough to know how to to not appear like Guenonfag. I notice that neither one of you (I'll presume that you're different posters although maybe this is being too generous) actually have an argument against my post so I'll presume I've won.

>>14171985
>"anti-Guenonfag"
>no argument against my post so I'll presume I've won
even when you try to be someone else you still cannot help but repeat the same lines from previous threads. Astounding.

>>14171992
Not every poster is the evil Guenonfag out to get you, baka. And I'm still eagerly awaiting any kind of rebuttal for my original post, please don't let me down.

>>14172002
see you did it again

>anon please not everyone is the guenonfag boogeyman bro
>rebut my arguments ill be waiting bro

I legit remember these exact posts from a similar thread awhile ago. It's you isn't it....

>>14172010
of course its him, who else could start a thread like this...

>>14172010
I'm telling you, I'm not Guenonfag. I barely know anything about Indian philosophy so I can't shitpost about it. If you don't stop this shit I'm going to become an insufferable anime avatarfag just to prove you wrong.

>>14172043
>uh hey guys im new here but check out this guy he is definitely correct I agree with him wholeheartedly (that's my argument btw)
>hahaha typical buddhistfags, western academics, anti-guenonfags, [insert guenonfag buzzword]
>oh hey did I tell you I am new and don't know shit about the subject topic (except that anon is correct somehow)
you have outed yourself lmao

>>14172037
I know but its still fun to see him resort to samefagging from a different IP (which he's been caught at least thrice now) because his thread didn't go as planned. I could tell he's extremely upset by the 10th post.

>>14172061
I picked all of that up just by browsing this thread. I'm sorry that I can disprove your positions after a mere hour or two of reading this thread. You're just going to have to try harder next time. For what it's worth, i still have respect for the little bit I know about buddhism (I'm thinking particularly about the excerpt I read from the rhinoceros horn sutra), but your westcuck interpretation is garbage.

This thread is haram.

>>14172089
>I know a little bit of Buddhism
>but these western scholars who have studied it for decades and met master practitioners overseas don't know shit lol

>>14172099
There may be some value to the academic approach, but the bizarre conspiracy of brahmanic corruption coupled with an uncritical acceptance of the academic interpretation is just bullshit. I will reiterate: Westerners , especially western academics do not understand the spiritual basis of religions, so I don't see why they should be the final authority if we are to try to take them seriously.

>>14168937
>Deities and rituals aren't my thing, and the animal sacrifice practise of ancient Vedic culture is the height of barbarism.
That's actually the best part of "Hinduism". It is something a modern person lacks, it's a call for a heroic journey, a praise to strength and power.
Your mindgame life-denying religion is a form of degeneracy of this original impulse of (and to) LIFE

>>14172370
>t. 15 year old who just read Evola and Nietzsche for the first time

>>14172137
>westerners simply can’t be spiritual enough to buy into the final authority of pajeets in robe, we all know you have to be a shitskinned yogi to appreciate the eternal word of shruti scripture bro.

>>14172700
Nice non argument Modernity shill

>>14172137
You admit you know nothing yet you simply place all your bets on dogma and classify scholarly critique as conspiracy. Maybe actually go ahead and finish the source material like the rest of the adults in this thread instead of LARPing as a neovedantist drone who just so happens to agree with the lone schizo poster ITT.

I think studying Advaita even if you intend to become a Buddhist is the right way to go. Advaita gives you a good frame of mind to understand the often difficult Buddhist sayings. The early Buddhists would have been ensconced in Upanishad wisdom and through having that basis they would have been able to make sense of what the Buddha taught.

When I read things like
>Originally deluded, one calls the mani-pearl a potsherd
>Suddenly one is awakened---and it is [recognized] as a pearl
>Ignorance and wisdom are identical, not different.
I can't help to see the similarities between this Zen statement and Advaita. If I had not studied Advaita beforehand then I probably would have just seen it as complete and utter nonsense and just typical phony contradictory eastern "wisdom". Although maybe this is a fault, but I don't think it is.

What do you guys think, is this just perennialist nonsense?

>>14161128
I haven't read everything so I won't say as much, but they are absolutely beautiful

>>14173051
As I see it personally the only problem with perennialism is when you start randomly guessing that similar concepts from different traditions are equal. Truth is always the same anywhere but it may be viewed through more than one lens (think of it like having many different jigsaw puzzles for the same picture and then comparing pieces from a specific part). Atman & Buddha-nature may seem similar once you get down to the nitty-gritty and how each teacher taught what they wanted to teach, but ultimately you definitely should keep the rest of each teaching in mind so as to fully comprehend it (otherwise you just have an incomplete picture and that's not enlightenment/moksha/whatever have you).

What should I read before the Upanishads?

I've already read the Bhagavad Gita and the Ashtavakra Gita but that's the extent of it

>>14173113
Generally i'm opposed to perennialism. In their attempts to get at some objective truth they just seem to relativise everything. When these people start talking about how Christianity, Islam, Judaism, pre-Christian European religions and Eastern religions all teach the same thing then I can't help to just tune out when they're on the face so different.

But Advaita to me seems to lie closer to Western philosophy in how it uses similar sorts of logic and with it you can get a "Indian" frame of mind to later learn Buddhism. That Buddhism and Advaita is actually the same is not really my claim. Just that Advaita is a easier jump for a westerner.

>>14173149
Sounds good. I try to stick with Buddhism since to this day a sizeable amount of Asian art is still grounded on it (whether the artist is aware of it or not), so that helps me engage stuff I already like on a new level.

>>14173122
Vedas, but it's not a good read.

This is one of the western masters right here.

>but but you have to wear a robe and walk barefooted to be a sage!
No.

>>14173310
>schloppy-hour
>western master

>>14172370
lol anon, if you want strength and power just go to the gym. and modernity has much better equipment and nutritional knowledge than antiquity had, in that regard.

>>14172061
You're obsessed, anon. Just be forward and ask Guenonfag to propose to you already. I have never seen a more turbulent yet enduring relationship on the whole of the internet. At least meet eachother in person, and see where it goes from there.

>>14173762
t. shitskin

>>14173051
Advaita is Absolutist, Buddhism is not.
Even in Dzogchen when they talk about the primordial purity of the mind, they immediately assert that this mind is also empty, can’t be located/found, is not some sort of creative force or Absolute, lest you mistakenly reify it as such. Buddha-nature is also taught to be skillful means for those who are afraid of the not-self and emptiness teachings, and this is directly stated in the tathagatagarbha sutras.

>>14173762
I'm afraid that his love for me will have to remain unrequited, at first it was kind of endearing but when the depth of his obsession with me fully revealed itself it ceased to be cute and became disturbing. Also, homosexuality is haram.

>A primer on Guenonfag
A Guenonian/Schuonian. He used to post a lot more Schuon but quietly excised those references from his posts when people started attacking him for it. At first he would post "Eastern Thought" or "Oriental" threads, which were thinly veiled excuses to samefag respond to himself with recommendations of Shankara. He would be so hostile in these threads that they all turned into shitstorms immediately.

Eventually mods started deleting the threads, so he started doing pic related once in a while. When he got tired of that, he resigned himself to invading other threads tenuously related to Indian or Eastern thought, especially Buddhist threads, being incredibly aggressive and samefagging himself like before.

He was utterly humiliated by real scholars a few times, who demonstrated that he doesn't know the languages he pretends to know and he in fact doesn't know his "tradition" very well either. His talking points were all traced back to surface-level Neovedanta sources written in Western languages, which he vehemently denies despite many direct quotes and screenshots being traced.

how to spot guenonfag:
>neovedantism
>hates "western academics"
>hindu nationalism
>unhinged hateful shitposting, then switches to being nice like "Aw gee, can't we all just get along?"
>denying being guenonfag while having the same exact posting style
>making threads asking questions just to reply to himself
>replying to his own replies with "Based" or "Wow now I have to read this! Sounds amazing!"
>long posts of "I've never heard of this guenonfag fellow, but he sounds like a great guy. You're the crazy one for thinking there's a guenonfag! I'm not guenonfag but if I were, I'd love that because I'm, I mean he's, a great guy."
>posting 5+ low content threads a day about guenon

>>14174038
>>14174014
>>14173762
>>14172061
this is my favorite subplot of /it/

>>14171558
sounds like duality to me desu, just with the new subject being pure awareness as opposed to the egoic self (identification with psychophysical) and with the new object being the psychophysical.
surely better than average everyday duality, but still seems like duality to me

>>14174058
it's fun, he's like the board's official neovedanta mascot

>>14173810
Funny because in the Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra the very opposite is stated, to wit that non-self is the expedient means to lure edgy atheists and that the true doctrine is the reality of atman/self.

The problem with your narrative is that you assume that Buddhism, or even just Mahayana Buddhism is monolithic and the sutras form a coherent system that refer to each other and should be read in some sort of order of ascending degree of enlightenment, rather than disparate sects often polemicizing against each other in the guise of an authoritative discourse/teaching by the “Buddha” himself (often centuries after his death), in a more or less copy cat style of the oldest sutras... “Thus I’ve heard!”

>>14174124

Keep the Pali Canon as your reference. Anything else should be read carefully.

>>14174075
The post literally says it's not duality

>>14174038
If I remember correctly those Eastern thought generals were ruined because of roving /pol/acks wouldn't stop shiposting in them. I don't remember any of the shit that you're posting.

And yes, I am Guenonfag. Every poster on this thread is Guenonfag apart from (You)

>>14174038
OBSESSED

>he's going to start samefagging again