/lit/ - Literature

No, it just keeps being corroborated by historical records and archaeology.

But the Bible doesn’t say the Bible is correct. It is correct, but it never says so of itself.

>>14117742
How can you post this in good conscience? A man existing under historical record doesn't equate to a man existing as the son of god. Why are you making it easier for people to dismiss Christianity? Good grief

>>14117635
I love this Kierkegaardian Chad memes

>>14117767
>son of god
Do Americans really believe in that stuff?

>>14117635
Why can't I use the same argument for the Qur'an?

>>14117742
It doesn't. Genesis? Denied by cosmology, geology, and evolution. Exodus? No archaeological evidence. The only parts of the Bible that have been demonstrated to have some truth are the books after the Israelites reach Israel.

>>14117759
>It is correct
What's your evidence for that?

>>14117767
It is not easy to explain how a man came to fulfill millennia-old prophecies and convince people he is the Messiah. And it was all wonderfully written with masterful parallels to the OT. How the whole thing was allegedly forged is a mystery, especially considering the motivations of the ones faking it all.

Obsession with correct or true is for idiots. The only important thing is utility. Does christianity give you a good way to live your life? Well of course not, but you must use that to refute it not truth

>>14117767
The historical records also detail the things that were believed about Him by His contemporaries.
There are only 3 probabilities: He was a liar, or He was a madman, or He was God. 12 men who were His contemporaries held that He was God, and all but one are recorded as having died for that belief. Compare that to Nixon's conspirators: All of them broke in a day of questioning.

>>14117806
Missing, one the most likely one. He was delusional but not mentally ill.

>>14117806
You're just citing stories attested to by the Bible, the relevant stories from which aren't independently verifiable. It would be one thing if pagan Roman sources spoke of Jesus doing miracles... but they don't.

>>14117772
Some of us do, and (in the general or vaguely ietsist sense) most of us have a strong belief in the transcendent.

>>14117775
>It doesn't. Genesis? Denied by cosmology, geology, and evolution.
How? The planet is covered in sediment thousands of feet thick, space is expanding from a beginning point, and last I checked there's still missing intermediate genera and species between Australopithecus and Homo.
>Exodus? No archaeological evidence.
Dawkins-tier. Get with the times, boomer.
>Dated to c. 1219 B.C.E., the Merneptah Stele is the earliest extrabiblical record of a people group called Israel. Set up by Pharaoh Merneptah to commemorate his military victories, the stele proclaims, “Ashkelon is carried off, and Gezer is captured. Yeno’am is made into nonexistence; Israel is wasted, its seed is not.” Ashkelon, Gezer and Yeno’am are followed by an Egyptian hieroglyph that designates a town. Israel is followed by a hieroglyph that means a people

>>14117814
that would fall quite easily under "madman"

>>14117826
>You're just citing stories attested to by the Bible, the relevant stories from which aren't independently verifiable
Incorrect.

>>14117851
How do you reconcile the first sin with evolution?

>>14117864
>symbolism (n.)
>1650s, "practice of representing things with symbols," from symbol + -ism. Applied to the arts by 1866; attested from 1892 as a movement in French literature, from French symbolisme (see symbolist).

>>14117861
I think he meant Jesus' miracles, resurrection, ascension, etc.
>>14117877
Exactly. It didn't actually happen.

>>14117851
The planet is 4 billion years old. The sun was created hundreds of millions of years before the Earth, and the stars in the sky existed for ten billion years before the sun. The existence of animals preceded the existence of humans, and humans clearly weren't literally created by God. All of these pure, scientific facts directly contradict the narrative presented in Genesis.
>there's still missing intermediate genera and species between Australopithicus and Homo.
I believe I'm linking the correct clip: https://youtu.be/UuIwthoLies (the relevant bit is near the end).

>>14117861
Provide citations.

>>14117889
Addendum: I realized that per genesis, animals actually did precede the creation of man. The rest of my points stand; Genesis doesn't present an accurate history of the world.

>>14117889
>has never read Kierkegard

>>14117895
>Genesis doesn't present an accurate history of the world.
Seriously who are you attempting to argue you with? nobody believes it does.

>>14117908
Why do I see this kind of post on /lit/ so often - these "read X" posts? It's as if you're afraid to actually present X's point, and you think it's a safe bet the person you're talking hasn't read X, so you think by saying, "read X", you'll "win" the argument by default.
My point is this: present the actual point or fuck off.

>>14117908
>has never read Spinoza

>>14117915
This guy (>>14117851 and >>14117742) seems to.

>>14117915
Read through the thread before jumping in and airing your confusion

>>14117851
>Merneptah Stele
...Attests to the existence of the Israelites - but not that the Israelites were in Egypt. Idiot.

>>14117916
It was kind of a shitpost. I agree with you, it annoys me and I wanted to make fun of that practice. Now I will stop posting.

>>14117933
I apologize for autistically not recognizing it as a shitpost.

>>14117922
You're confusing your autistic understanding of their comments with what they're actually saying, at no point did >>14117851 argue that genesis is a literal historical account of the creation of the universe.

>>14117780
How do we know he fulfilled the prophecies? If all we have is written records, rather than more substantial evidence. How do we know that the apostles didn't turn a historical figure into a Messianic one, for reasons we could speculate? Why, if Jesus were God, would Jesus not write any of his own words himself, instead leaving others to do so for him, despite the uncertainty of whether they'd record it at all, let alone accurately. Better yet, if Jesus is God, why not simply broadcast himself telepathically to everyone, in such a way that few would doubt his Divinity? Why are Christians the one trying to prove their deity, when their deity has the power to prove itself to the whole world? If your daily prayers are reaching Jesus and the Father, then why could they not simply assuage our doubts in the here and now, by displaying some kind of sign?

I'm asking all of this in good faith, not to mean you any harm. I'm not an atheist personally, I'm a non-dualist. And I'm open to believing many things. But the foundation on which Christianity rests has always been quite shaky to me, and the culture is continued more by societal convention rather than by philosophical weight. I still do have interest in knowing who the real Jesus was, and what really went down in the first-century. But I'd prefer something more substantial to base such fundamental beliefs around than the historical hearsay which Christians seemingly can't provide more than. No offence meant by that.

>>14117932
It’s referring to a people who had been in Egypt. Israel didn’t stop existing in 1219 BC. It follows hat the stele is referring to a group that was in Egypt, but no longer.

>>14117826
I'm not Christian, but from what I know Jesus was recorded as a "sorcerer" in Jewish records or something? I'm not sure if he did perform real "miracles", but at the very least he might have went through the motions of them and gained a reputation as a magician of some kind.

>>14117806
You're not the first person to contrast the twelve disciples with Nixon's conspirators. That's never been a very compelling point. The apostles were cult members; the conspirators were motivated by fear and self-interested. Of course they're not going to respond the same way to questioning.

>>14117950
>Better yet, if Jesus is God, why not simply broadcast himself telepathically to everyone, in such a way that few would doubt his Divinity?
That’s boring

>>14117956
Others like the Pharaoh's men were said to have performed miracles

>>14117861
Celsus? I'm reading him at the moment and he says nothing in favor of Christ, only the opposite. Where does he claim Jesus to have "miraculous power" or an immaculate conception? He mocks the very ideas, in what I've read so far. Claims that Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier, and calls Jesus delusional.

>>14117950
>why not simply broadcast himself telepathically to everyone
He didn't need to, the decision to believe was never your voice to make, it was predestined.

>>14117977
God delights in suffering

>>14117962
>the conspirators were motivated by fear and self-interested
You mean like cult members?

take the Taleb pill
https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/789792985529679872?s=19

>>14117977
elect and gracepilled

>>14117954
The Merneptah Stele refers to military conquests by Merneptah, brainlet. It in no way attests to the Israelites' presence in Egypt, which remains a story only attested to by the Bible.

>>14117949
That effectively is what he's arguing.

>>14117983
No

>>14117981
Suffering allows for greater meaning and understanding. Create a better world if you can

>>14117981
Yes.

>>14118003
Not if you're in Hell lmao

If Genesis isn't a real story, is original sin, Cain's descendants etc also not true? When does the old testament stop being unreal symbolism?

>>14118014
Whenever it's convenient for Christards

>>14117968
More like rational. The Christian religion, which seems to be entirely perpetuated by the writings of non-Divine men, and subsequent authority figures controlling the rest of the population, gives us plausible reason to doubt the narrative it contains as being accurate of reality.

What's the point of being a God if you can't even write your own scriptures, let alone just communicate to everyone directly? Everyone who wasn't there in the first century has instead had to rely on the glory of...vocal conjecture, or words written on paper - which isn't very "glorious" at all. Why did Jesus, who was God incarnate, teach his ministry for no longer than 3 years? Highschool is longer than that, man. Where was he during his lost years? What could have been more important than delivering humanity the most important message it had ever received?

>>14117742
What does the talmud say about Jesus? Is he mentioned a lot?

>>14118014
Genesis is a real story, it isn't a historical document, learn the difference.

>>14118022
He was cooming

>>14118022
And yet, God is glorified every day. I think He knows what He’s doing

>>14118022
>Scripture is any text of the Bible brought to Christians by the holy spirit and read by Christians in faith and by the leading of the holy spirit. Trusting scripture to convey the word of God to us is just as much a matter of faith as is any other article of faith.

>>14118040
>Trusting scripture to convey the word of God to us is just as much a matter of faith as is any other article of faith.
Which makes it unconvincing

>>14118003
How does suffering that kills people allow for greater meaning and understanding? Why did God create diseases with high mortality rates?

>>14118014
It becomes semi-historical (emphasis on 'semi') when the Israelites reach Israel. It's almost complete bullshit before that.

>>14118027
The Pharisees really hated him.
>>14118022
Prove to me that Columbus landed on San Salvador in 1492 using anything besides contemporaneous accounts and documents.

>>14118055
*blocks your path*

>>14118058
>How does suffering that kills people allow for greater meaning and understanding? Why did God create diseases with high mortality rates?
Otherwise there’d be a bunch of plot holes. Slippery slope etc. We live in the best of worlds

>>14118067
*knocks you over and steps on your shades*

>>14118083
You need to form a complete sentence.

>>14118061
There are multiple contemporaneous accounts - in addition to Columbus's own journal, you have Spanish records of the voyage being approved and financed. You have a plausible account from him of what the Bahamas would have been like in 1492 - an account that would have been a complete guess if he hadn't actually landed. You have him literally bringing back artifacts (which we still have) and people from the Bahamas (whose presence in Europe are attested to by Europeans). More to the point, unlike the Bible, Columbus isn't claimed to have performed miracles or anything that defies plausibility and his account withstands historical scrutiny.

>>14118022
>let alone just communicate to everyone directly?
God doesn't break promises, he doesn't do "backsies", he promised he wouldn't do things the old fashioned way any more, he said this is how he would do things in the future and he kept that promise.

>>14117742
It honestly is insane how purposely ignorant these people are. It reminds me of Hitler's famous quote on the Jews, how he would correct them and then come back tomorrow and they were saying the same retarded shit they were saying the previous day, completely unchanged, learning nothing, all pretense.
>>14117767
He obviously means the existence of Jesus as a historical person you complete insufferable retard, stop shifting the goalposts.
>>14118027
It doesn't have a lot of good things to say about him, that's for sure. Seems the rabbis really, really did not like Jesus. IIRC it accuses him of being a sorcerer and claims he is in hell.

>>14118109
So all you have is contemporaneous accounts and objects that people CLAIM are from the Bahamas, got it.

>>14118094
*shoots lasers into your eyes*
seems you've forgotten that the shades prevent Kierkegaard's eyes from shooting lasers.

>>14118109
If he follows his argument he's going to ask you to prove each of those things happened until he gets you to admit you have faith that they happened and somehow that means it's sensible to have blind faith in the Bible.

>>14118111
He didn't have to promise that

>>14118129
I'm saying he's being arbitrary in what does and doesn't count for historical evidence.

>>14118152
Does it bother you there's more evidence for Columbus landing in San Salvador than for Jesus' resurrection?

>>14117780
He never fulfilled any of the prophecies. The NT authors had to take them out of context or rely on mistranslations from the Septuagint to make it seem like he did.

>>14118203
>he says, with faith

>>14118209
What?

>>14118122
Multiple, independent contemporaneous accounts of historically plausible events. Conversely, the Bible is a compilation of contemporaneous accounts by authors working together to tell the same story and edited by the Church over the course of centuries to make it all internally consistent - and moreover, the stories told in the Bible aren't plausible.
>objects that people CLAIM are from the Bahamas
Columbus delivered seven or eight natives from the Bahamas to Spain and accurately described the people of the Bahamas. His accounts also accurately describe the positions of a variety of large Carribean islands. I could go on and on, and none of this could he have described without actually having arrived in the Carribean. Consider what would have to go into fabricating the story of the entire voyage without actually going there - correctly predicting the existence of America, correctly predicting the positions of islands, correctly predicting the level of technological development of Native Americans, correctly predicting some aspects of the culture of native Bahamans, their style of dress, etc, convincing people in Spain to write accounts about the Bahamans he brought back, convincing the crown to fabricate records of the voyage having been financed, and so on. It would be an implausible thing to fabricate.

>>14118152
I'm really not. Use your brain.

>>14118129
I suspect you're right.

>>14118120
Skimmed the wiki about Jesus in talmud, seems like there was a bunch of different guys named Jesus. Doesn’t seem like they made all that much fuss about the Christ one.

>>14118213
>He never fulfilled any of the prophecies
Can you prove this? No. You have faith in this claim. How interesting.

>>14118203
>The NT authors had to take them out of context or rely on mistranslations from the Septuagint to make it seem like he did
Here, red Isaiah 43 in Koine Greek, straight from the Septuagint
https://en.katabiblon.com/us/index.php?text=LXX&book=Is&ch=53

>>14118061
I'm the anon you replied to. While I don't know much about Columbus specifically, the information surrounding his figure is not unique either to history (linguistic information, which I have to believe on faith), or to my natural surroundings (sensory information, which I also have to place faith in). I have seen men, boats, humans travelling between landmasses for various purposes. I can presume, based on this, that there were men in previous eras engaging in the same patrerns of behavior. Because I've seen these items, they form my mental conception of "natural". I have not personally seen humans turning wine into water, walking on water, or raising the dead and themselves from death. On the basis of not having seen these things, they form my conception "supernatural". Not because they are against the laws of possibility, but they are against the regularities which I have myself observed. If I had seen those behaviors, I'm sure they'd be a part of my conception of the "natural" as well. I'm open to their potential existence, but if the primary evidence for them is contained in the form of written information, then I'll reserve my belief (i.e agnostic) until something more substantial is presented. I have nothing against someone who'd take the opposite stance and affirm the phenomena as historically accurate, merely encourage them to rationally catalogue the presuppositions their position entails, which is what I attempted to do above.

>>14118242
This is a very good argument - thanks anon.

>>14118235
I'm not the guy who said that, but I'll step in anyway. If both of you rely on faith, what makes your faith correct? How can you say it's correct if you can't prove it?

>>14117977
Graced and breadpilled

>>14118247
No problem. Thanks for the compliment. Have a nice day.

>>14118266
One faith is uplifting, hopeful, regulating, while the other is depressing and out of hatred. He wants God to be fake because he does not want to acknowledge his sins. The end goal of life is not to minimize our possibility of believing something false, or else we would never move.

>>14118242
What kind of physical evidence would you hope for?
For instance, wine doesn't last 2,000 years.

>>14118328
>muh feels
wew

>>14118346
That’s what everything boils down to. Truth only matters with respect to how we perceive it. It is foolish to abandon faith if it results in negative consequences. How is that virtuous? What is your reward?

>>14118203
If we, as Christians, read the Hebrew Bible through a historical-critical lens we will not find Christ or a triune God. However, if we read the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament through Christ we will find orthodox meanings.

>>14118328
>One faith is uplifting, hopeful, regulating, while the other is depressing and out of hatred.
I am not depressed nor do I hate anyone or anything. I enjoy life and wish well for others.
>He wants God to be fake because he does not want to acknowledge his sins.
You want God to be real because you do not want to acknowledge death.
>The end goal of life is not to minimize our possibility of believing something false, or else we would never move.
A meaningless platitude.
None of these points acknowledge the existence of other belief systems than atheism/agnosticism.
>>14118357
And if it doesn't result in negative consequences? What is virtue? Why do I need a reward?
>>14118368
You find what you look for.

>>14117775
Holy shit do you seriously think that genesis is not about a methaphor but an exact scientific explanation of the world’s creation. The Bible is not a science textbook.

>>14118342
Maybe Jesus should've thought of that

>>14118379
>You find what you look for.
We find the true meaning.

>>14118387
Name one thing you'd expect to find. All we have for many historical figures is word of mouth that's been written down somewhere.

>>14118368
>christian accidentally btfo's himself

>>14118342
The Shroud of Turin is an interesting document, when I looked into it last. A great candidate for what I consider "evidence of a miracle". It has a level of detail, and kinds of details, which are completely unique among archeological documents. There isn't anything like it out there, from what I know. I haven't looked into it recently and so I'm not sure if there's any new verdict on it, but that would be an example of "physical evidence" which I consider positive in favor of some kind of "supernatural" phenomena, or better said "a natural phenomena which the majority of humanity have never encountered before". It would be one even without any additional Biblical testimony connecting to it, but I'd argue that if there is historical testimony that could be connected to it, it only adds legitimacy to both.

>>14118408
Here.

>>14118398
That's the fucking point you retard. God is supposed to be omnipotent, but for some reason decided to leave the evidence of himself to word of mouth.

>>14118403
I'm well aware of all the issues regarding the authorship, corruption, authenticity, and historical reliability of the Bible. I just happen to be a faithful man.

>>14118422
Think through the alternative for 10 seconds. It’s boring and stupid. Imagine you’re God

>>14118430
That's a terrible argument.

>>14118430
I can't imagine God would feel bored or stupid lmao

>>14118415
That's the file which introduced me to the artifact in the first place. Very interesting stuff.

>>14118441
What exactly do you think God is doing

>>14118428
That's no problem anon. As long as you're following a vegetarian/vegan diet alongside of it, of course. We have to take care of the animals, not take their lives.

>>14118452
Assuming God exists, I imagine he exists outside of time

>>14118452
Lurking this thread.

>>14118457
Atemporal existence sounds boring desu

>>14118457
OK. Now what was the purpose of creation? Why not do nothing?

>>14118469
Have you not read any of your own theology? I'll assume you're baiting

when will you retard fedora tippers finally get a clue, that it doesnt matter if the bible is right, nothing about that matters at all. it's needed by smart and stupid people alike to be the ultimate truth. for the stupid to be guided, for the smart to guide the stupid. you've finally overcome god, but to what extend? to be flooded by a new religious group, their god, their moral highground which they are entitled to, for not being as stupid as to demolish the foundation of their society awhole.
good luck at being right, while being crushed by the ultimate truth, which in the end will be a bloody mob rule, but without your kin even being selfaware about that.

>>14118471
What? I'm an agnostic. It makes sense to me that such a god would not need to create this world since it would be perfectly content in it's own existence.

>>14118471
>Why is there something rather than nothing?
This has been a question for thousands of years. We'll never know. Don't even bother asking it.

>>14118474
yeah yeah whatever nerd

>>14118120
>>He obviously means the existence of Jesus as a historical person
>A man existing under historical record doesn't equate to a man existing as the son of god.

I don’t deny that religion plays an important social and cultural function, and I personally believe that without an unquestionable system of ethics, beliefs, and etiquette that society can not fundamentally function, long term. To maintain a society you need a homogenous system of social norms, and religion just so happens to provide the best content for this. Not only is it something that in a healthy society is universal, therefore creating an all encompassing belief system which is agreed upon by the great majority, church and other religious institutions serve a great role within the community, they are the one thing that has brought everyone together in harmony, as a collective not only vowing to be faithful to the one system of ethics, but as a family, vowing to look out in one another. I don’t necessarily think you need the voodoo for that, but it makes things simpler and more concrete.

My main problem with religion is that it often fools the more intelligent members of our society. I see religion as essentially being the glue holding together the masses, but I find the idea of genuinely intelligent people falling for such nonsense to not only be ridiculous, but worrying. It is understandable why the average unquestioning man would fall for it, and as I’ve said before, a necessary thing, but why a critical mind would fall for such nonsense is beyond me.

And as for Christianity itself. I’d be wholly against it, but I’m not retarded enough to think Paganism is a viable option at this point, unfortunately. I don’t like Christianity mainly because it’s not only a universal religion, but a foreign one. Just thinking of millions of Europeans dying in some desert in the Middle East for a foreign Jewish God sickens me, oh yeah and what happened during the 13th and 14th centuries was pretty unfortunate too. But seriously, the idea that so many Europeans now, and then died in service of such a foreign and insidious religion does sicken me.

And that’s not to mention the fact that Christianity is the biggest copout imaginable. The idea that simply believing in a Jewish deity or getting half drowned as a child makes you a moral person in this religion is once again sickening. If you are a genuinely moral person you don’t have to be forced by the hand of God, or outright forgiven for all your sins, you will simply by your nature be a good person, not for a God, not for yourself, but because it is the right thing to do.

>>14118474
>you're right but you're also WRONG
fuck off mouthbreather

>>14118479
>>14118484
Herein lies the common misunderstanding of God. Without creation, God isn’t God. God is Truth, and is glorified when that Truth is displayed through creation. This is why both joy and suffering exist. God is on a mission of perfect self understanding. But the mission has always been completed.

>>14118500
> I don’t like Christianity mainly because it’s not only a universal religion, but a foreign one. Just thinking of millions of Europeans dying in some desert in the Middle East for a foreign Jewish God sickens me, oh yeah and what happened during the 13th and 14th centuries was pretty unfortunate too. But seriously, the idea that so many Europeans now, and then died in service of such a foreign and insidious religion does sicken me.

>>14118500
yeah yeah whatever nerd

>>14118503
you're mostly stupid 2bh

>>14118514
>without creation, God isn't God
So are you saying creation exists coeternally with God?

>>14117775
>the bible is literal and not a collection of allegorical wisdom
how do people like you find their way to this part of this website and remain the way you are

>>14118518
>responding to an effort post with le spicy meme

>>14118521
>calling someone on /lit/ a nerd, unironically

This is why I rarely use this shithole.

>>14118536
God exists beyond time, so he does not exactly coexist with this world. But the idea of this world has always existed. The future is already known to God.

>>14118503
what does being right about the potential nonexistence of god but at the same time that thinking being your own demise make for a too complex idea for you to fanthom it?

>>14118551
But you said without creation God is not God. So if he doesn't coexist with creation then he cannot be God.

>>14118544
shh nerd

>>14118559
Speak English

>>14118574
>sub 100 iq people
i swear

>>14118544
>responding to an effort meme a meme post

>>14118565
God and the idea of creation have always existed. I’m not sure about creation itself. Maybe this world already exists for God, seeing the temporal dimension as we would see length or width, and we are riding the illusion of time. God is incomplete without the knowledge of creation, is what I’m saying.

>>14118579
>reresponding to an effort meme a meme post

>>14118578
>i swear
Don't, that's a sin.

>>14118574
oh im sorry
i think it should be
>how does being right about the potential nonexistence of god but at the same time that thinking being your own demise make for a too complex idea for you to fanthom it?

again sorry, im not putting to much effort into spoonfeeding retards like you.

>>14118583
For God to have an idea of something he wants (not a good word I know) to exist, that thing will already be willed into existence since God does not exist within time. Thus the "idea" of creation and creation itself, for God, are the same. Now we've returned to your assertion that God needs creation to exist. This is absurd if God causes creation since God would already need to be God to cause creation. If creation exists in God (which I don't think you wanted to say) I'd like to hear the argument for that.

>>14118597
I understand what you mean. I disagree that it will be my own demise.

>>14118626
God is Truth, which exists regardless. But God is not complete if He is not aware of all truths, if there is nothing to reflect on. Everything is the movement toward Truth. The statement “truth exists” is self-referential, demanding knowledge of the “I” which sees the truth. God is the Truth that sees itself as such

>>14118644
>God is truth
>God is aware of this
That seems sufficient. Where does creation come into this? What exactly is "moving" toward truth if God is truth and is aware of himself as such?

>>14118669
Because truth cannot understand itself without first describing something else, otherwise there is an infinite regress

>>14118698
Can you explain this further to help me understand? What is to be described? Why would there be an infinite regress?

>>14118698
In case it isn’t clear, the statement “I exist” is lacking in truth unless you also know what the “I” is. But this is the end goal, as summed up in the phrase “I AM THAT I AM”

>>14118720
If God is incomplete (and thus not God) until he recognizes himself as the truth which is God, he either
1) is already the truth which is God, making recognition unecessary for his completeness
2) is not complete until he recognizes himself as the truth which is God (which is complete)... which is absurd
Sorry if the way I write comes off as annoying

>>14118027
One passages claims he is in hell being boiled alive inside a vat of feces.

>>14118712
Let’s ponder the possibility of there being nothing (which there never was). Then it would be true that there is nothing. This truth, this IS, reveals the absurdity of nothingness, because non-existence...exists. And this truth is real as well. So truth must do away with this non-existence for something tangible and non-contradictory. In this transition phase, it may describe itself as existing, in order to stay existent, but it is describing the original truth that nothing existed, which will soon no longer be the case. So what is truth? How does it still exist? I’m saying that truth first needs something to latch onto before it can look back at itself, saying “I am the truth of all these things, and this I know to be myself.” Without that relation, that going beyond itself, then there is really nothing to be described.

>>14118740
It’s useful to think of the process as a causal movement, but I don’t think it is. God has always been, but for the causal reasons I’ve described. There never was contradiction or lacking.

>>14118750
You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of nothing. Nothing is not a thing; you cannot say it IS something. It cannot be the truth, because for truth to exist there is something which is not nothing. In nothing there are no laws. To describe nothing we are best leaving a blank space.
[ ]
Also you say there never was nothing, but you then go on to describe how truth moved from this nothing to existence which is the transition phase. Is it a hypothetical or is it not?
>>14118764
If God has always been and is never lacking, I fail to see why God would need a transition phase from nothing to existence.

>>14118750
You also didn't point out the infinite regress.

>>14117635
The virgin literalist exegesis vs. the chad mystic revelation

>>14118638
i stated it in more detail in the first post, if you have an actual argument against that i'll gladly listen

>>14118802
I can not communicate the reason, sorry. Maybe someday you will see it. Remember that God cannot not be truth itself, or “logos,” because then God’s existence would be explained by logic outside of himself, rendering God an effect and not a true Cause. God is that logic that explains itself.

>>14118824
>to be flooded by a new religious group, their god, their moral highground which they are entitled to, for not being as stupid as to demolish the foundation of their society awhole.
This is a statement, not an argument. Argue for it and I'll gladly respond.

Which Bible should I read/buy? Haven't before

>>14118870
>cannot not

>>14118873
Like nice prose and don't care about accuracy? KJV
Want accuracy and readability? RSV

>>14118882
Yeah sorry I realized I misread it as I hit send.

>>14118839
im making my case for Europe. Forced by their godless nihilism they invited the world and lost themselves.
see 2015 refugee crisis

Their religion is dying and so is their groupthink.
see the "we are all equal blabla" gibberish the mainstream regurgitates

on the other hand you have a strongly religious group of islam, which is in itself faceless, there is no coherent race or nationality to it, yet their groupthink overcomes those of europe more and more by the day.
see in example the creation of political parties in belgium openly wanting sharia law instead of their current legislation or the biggest survey in europe yet on views on democracy of muslims in england, which was in favor of sharia to everything else

on the otherhand you can clearly see the inequality to christian groups in europe
see here the change in teachings of homosexuality and lgbt nonsens in schools in england for example
when rejected by christians, they were just told to suck it up, while the rejection by muslims led to actual changes, all the while they are still a minority
but there are more cases of this inequality, while banning christian symbols from schools germany chose to take pork of the menue in school kitchens to favor muslims

so all which was achieved by overcoming christianity is a swap of christianity for islam, and while christianity had a reformation to make it bearable for freethinking individuals the muslims will eat europe awhole, if there wont be a rebuilding of europes old groupthink(see islamisation of african states and how they dealt with nonbelievers).

>>14119027
Are you American? Islam is getting neutered, too.

>>14119074
in which way is it getting neutered?

>>14119085
Hijab girls in universities are all about progressivism and shit

>>14117635
Remember to report low quality posts

>>14119124
same goes for you, Redditor

>>14119118
thats kind of an "anecdotal evidence" isnt it?

well to get to a university as hijab girl you either have to already have "liberal hijab parents" or be a liberal signaling "how we are all equal" so it's most logical for them to favor progressivism.

i'll give you them being "real muslims". that cant portray the majority tho, as the survey i mentioned (which was the biggest survey on muslims in europe) clearly stated otherwise

im not speaking for individuals here, im speaking about the collective

a progressive muslim doesnt make islam progressive (while were ignoring the fact, that progressivism and a lack of god is what gave them europe for free basically, so i wouldnt oppose it aswell, aslong as it favours me)

>>14119118
الحالة المطلقة للمرأة

>>14119161
Honestly? Have sex

>>14117635
yes, it is

>>14117895
Actually genesis says both that animals came before Adam and also after Adam. The book starts contradicting itself almost straightaway.

>>14119118
We have "progressive, leftist" Muslim girls in Germany, even in political Positions.
Talking about Feminism and all that shit, while behind shut doors screeching Death to israel and jews. Those people are Radicals in disguise.

>>14119141
Yeah, I didn’t come from r/thedonald like you and I did report the post.

>>14119171
i like my views challenged to improve on them, and im glad they are as impenetrable by now as for you to resort to spouting memes. good feels

>>14117977
>Okay so its like atheism but its Christian
>Why?
>Because fuck mysticism. Rationalism FTW!

>>14117950
>Why not simply broadcast himself telepathically to everyone
He literally did/does, the problem is that because God loves you, you are free to ignore it, and because freedom is not truly freedom if it is not exerted some choose to ignore His voice. Where do you think, and I say this plainly and without allegory, the final synthesis of materialism is? It is to argue that consciousness does not exist, your experience of reality, your ability to self identify and be aware is the voice of God inside you. A piece of him given to you freely. But because consciousness is a subjective process it is, by definition, in complete opposition to the very foundation of empiricism. This empiricists, who currently talk about emergence that they cannot explain, have already begun to put out the idea that there is no consciousness. Rather you are like a computer that believes it is self aware, a cascade of proteins and switches that parses a stream of sensory inputs and makes decisions to maximise survival. There are already scientists who argue no one even sees colour, they simply believe they see colour. Faith isn’t about believing something in the promise of a reward, it IS the reward. Consider that you, upon dying, were to be ushered into paradise, to see divine and infinite beauty for yourself. You would surely still be free, correct? And in that freedom you would be free to doubt you are in heaven? You could say to yourself “perhaps this is a dream/simulation/hallucination”, God cannot prove to you that anything is real without violating the sanctity of His gift: the ability to doubt. Thus only through faith can you rejoin God, not because He is cruel and capricious, but because He is kind and generous. He would never “prove” something because epistemologically true proof violates the freedom to question.

8/19 images so far in this thread are wojack/pepe.
The comments posted with those images should be ignored.

>>14118228
There are a couple of quotes about "the Christ one" in there, do more than skim next time
>>14118493
Many retards try to deny that the historical person Jesus existed. But of course you already know this and are just playing dumb, tomorrow you'll be another NPC pretending you never saw this thread and saying the same shit you've always said since you were 13.

>>14118500
>hes a functionalist
ok dawkinsfag

>>14117775
>Not understanding that literal reading of the Bible hasn't been a historically supported view and Biblican literalism and evangelicalism is a 29th/20th/21st century thing

>>14119257
I respect your views anon. I'm personally a non-dualist and I believe that consciousness is God. I agree with you that certain branches of materialism found today are utterly nonsensical. The part you mentioned about "not seeing colors" is a great example of it, which is beyond my belief that an esteemed scientist could utter something so silly. That said, I think you and other Christians should follow your faith to the fullest it helps you, while not necessarily expecting the rest of the world to converge to your views. And don't worry about people who doubt your worldview or try to mock it, simply believe what resonates for you without worry of societal perception. The Christian worldview is not for me personally, but it brings happiness to many people in the world and they should continue to follow it so long as it does.

>>14117772
It’s pretty much fundamental to Christianity

>>14118471
I think this is the one question that humans can never understand

>>14118474
>religion is a utility
Hello Marx

>>14117915
I had a girlfriend who did. Her parents did. That pretty much killed our relationship. There are retards who take it all very literally. Go into any Christian bookstore and you’ll find books expounding Biblical literalism.

>>14119902
>christian bookstore
>bookstore
>just go into any bookstore
I didn't need this feel

>>14117635
>>14117635
The Bible is correct because the Catholic Church which is the Body of Christ told me so.

>>14120346
weak b8

>>14118328
I'm pretty sure projection is a sin, have fun in hell

>>14117773
no replies

>>14117775
You do realize that Manetho mentions the jews in his history of Egypt right?
And there has been archeological evidence to support Manetho's Aegypticia right?

>>14119902
How did that "kill your relationship"? I have friends who think Genesis is literal. Just don't comment on it and privately find it mildly amusing or w/e and move on, it never really comes up in conversation and I say that as someone who is part of the leadership at a Midwest church (yes I know its comical that I post on here)

>>14117759
it's implied