/lit/ - Literature

Vegans wish to replace a lot of our animal products with shit like palm products which means extensive deforestation.

>let's just divest ourselves of the responsibility we created by symbiotic living with animals for thousands of years and let sheep and cows die horrid deaths and neutering all pets out of existence
Veganism doesn't help animals. It considers most of the animals we care for to be abominations, and in light of that it is hard to take their claims of human cruelty as a valid perspective. Factory farming and the more egregious side of veganism have much in common, and we should instead aim for a responsible and mutually beneficial relationship with our selectively bred codependents.

>>14024899
Enforced vegetarianism would
-drastically lower CO2 emissions
-end the brutal holocaust of trillions of innocent animals
-increase food production by 23%
-drastically lower obesity rates
-result in a healthier population (given we take vitamins, calcium, and iron)
-free up land

And what’s the counterargument? You don’t want to eat “disgusting foods” like pasta, rice, mushrooms, cheese, etc?

>>14024890
I’m not a vegetarian because my turning vegetarian would have a negligible effect on the defunding of the meat industry. My personal conversion wouldn’t make a jot of a difference statistically speaking. It’s the same reason I don’t vote: the outcome is going to be the same either way. For me it would need to be a top down process; I would happily join a vegetarian paramilitary group, overthrow the government, and outlaw the meat industry. But if it’s not a top down process I don’t see a point.

>>14024924
You make a lot of claims but don’t substantiate them at all. Vegans don’t want animals to die horrid deaths nor do they want to illegalise pets. In fact vegans want to stop animals from dying horrid deaths at the hands of the meat industry. As for “bruh we be doing this thousands of years fool”: not an argument.

>>14024948
>given we take vitamins, calcium and iron
Thanks for proving being vegetarian is shit

>>14024890
We need to change how we live, not what we eat.

>>14024980
How is it? Vegan diets cause a deficiency in b12, calcium, and iron. All of these things can be accounted for. I think it’s a worthy trade off since you’ll be less fat, less at risk of heart disease, more likely to live longer, etc.

>>14024986
If you're not a complete idiot you can have both

>>14024986
Why would I want to live longer in a world with enforced veganism? I'd welcome death

>>14024971
>I'll ignore we need animals that now need human care to survive and not die horrid deaths because those animal products not being bad for animals makes me uncomfortable.
Certainly the extreme of veganism is no pets allowed. They often have better arguments from cruelty than those against all farm animals: well cared for farm animals are living their best possible life, and require care from farmers to not boil in their own wool or explode from eating the wrong clover, while pets are more likely to have incurable problems from selective breeding and more likely to die sooner than their wild counterparts than most farmed animals. That factory farming is egregiously awful is not an argument for eliminating all animal farming. Abusus non tollit usum.

I love eating pigs, cows, birds. Wouldnt mind trying dog or cat. I dont care when animals die, as i kill them myself pretty often. Especially in summer, when bunch of mosquitos and flies show up

>>14024890
Hey
I think you got lost somewhere
Just because you link a pamphlet it doesn't make your topic /lit/ related

>>14024890
>implying plants don't have souls the same way animals do

In the Elder Scrolls lore, there is a race of elves called the Bosmer that have decided to take something called the "Green Pact" in which they are not allowed to eat any of the vegetation in their sacred forest. As such, they are only allowed strict meat-based diets. I've always found this to be a pretty amusing take on the polar opposite of Veganism.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that you should ultimately do whatever provides you with the most spiritual fulfillment, even if part of that is trying to push your gay, annoying beliefs on others. I have no interest in veganism as it sounds counter-intuitive in practically every way imaginable, and I also don't care about the slaughtering of farm animals because I don't see them as anything more than creatures for harvest. Nothing sets my mind straight more than a nice, juicy steak. And like >>14025003 said, I'd rather die than give that up because a bunch of midwits think they are somehow better people for eating a stupid, inefficient diet.

>>14024890
>Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?
They are very tasty and filling. I don't support animal cruelty: animals I eat enjoy better feed and safety than they would if wild.

>Do you think veganism is the first step in saving this rotten society and reversing our effect on nature?
Replacing pastures with farmland would decrease biodiversity as there would be no hope of producing enough vegetal fibres and protein without much more extensive monoculture of those goods. Some terrains which are unsuitable (because they are too rocky or arid or steep) to agriculture but suitable to pasture would go to waste. The cessation of fishing would also intensify our land use.

>Is taste more important to you than life?
Depends on the taste and on the life.

>Do you think it's okay to look at other animals as property?
They are de facto property even if we make laws treating them as people, since they can't make the sort of choices that let us function in society for themselves.

>>14025601
>In the Elder Scrolls lore, there is a race of elves called the Bosmer that have decided to take something called the "Green Pact" in which they are not allowed to eat any of the vegetation in their sacred forest. As such, they are only allowed strict meat-based diets. I've always found this to be a pretty amusing take on the polar opposite of Veganism.

Wow, I don't want to be a vegan anymore if this is what you retards think is gonna turn people over

>>14026461
>I don't want to be a vegan anymore

My work here is done.

>>14024890
>another retard blinded by collectivism

there is no we, there is only you and I. some people love dogs, some people hate dogs. There is no universal viewpoint on dogs. If this author was in the east, eating swine and cows would be forbidden by religion and dogs would be fine to eat. By those who believed in religion, anyway.

>>14024948
>-drastically lower CO2 emissions
>-end the brutal holocaust of trillions of innocent animals
>-increase food production by 23%
>-drastically lower obesity rates
>-result in a healthier population (given we take vitamins, calcium, and iron)
>-free up land
lmao, these are literally all wrong. it's like veganshills are just elaborate trolls.

>>14025601
I follow a somewhat similar religion, in that, I don't view the lives of animals and plants as any different. Of course, one does have to eat, but be it plants or animals, I can't kill anything for sport. I can only kill what I eat. Some Indian tribes have this rule, but only for animals.

>>14025601
>Nothing sets my mind straight more than a nice, juicy steak
>I'd rather die than give that up
I'd give you this satisfaction for mindlessly following your belief

Life survives by feeding on life.
You aren't wrong comparing the meat packing industry to the Holocaust in its mechanistic disregard for life's value. Contrast that with hunter-gatherer tribes like the buffalo hunters of the Great Plains had rituals that were supposed to resurrected the killed animal, or stories telling of a pact between themselves or the animals they hunted, and you get the sense that they were intensely aware of the gravity taking life had for them.

But you can identify with animals without believing you are the same as them. You were born a hunter. You were born with an instinct and taste for violence that modern neuroticism and self-domestication suppresses. Life must cannibalize itself in order to continue. Saying "no" to that process on principle is saying no to life.

>>14024948
Millions of animals would still die in each year's harvest (this would be less animal deaths, but would still be considered a "holocaust" as you put it). I highly doubt obesity rates would lower given the large amount of vegetarian junk food.

>>14024890
>Why do you eat animals
Because I'm intended to.

>>14024890
Why would I care about animal suffering?

Do not unjustly eat fish the water has given up,
And do not desire as food the flesh of slaughtered animals,
Or the white milk of mothers who intended its pure draught
for their young, not noble ladies.
And do not grieve the unsuspecting birds by taking eggs;
for injustice is the worst of crimes.
And spare the honey which the bees get industriously
from the flowers of fragrant plants;
For they did not store it that it might belong to others,
Nor did they gather it for bounty and gifts.
I washed my hands of all this; and wish that I
Perceived my way before my hair went gray!

>>14024948
>drastically lower obesity rates
i didnt know animals were made of bread

>>14024986
>he fell for the "eating fat makes you fat" meme
BIG yikes

>>14026573
The only difference is that in the 21st century you can survive and even be healthy by not eating anything but plants. So why would you choose to support murder of other sentient beings?

>>14026585
Actually no. All other teeth are meant to grind plants not meat.
Also our gut is more similar to a herbivore than a carnivore.

>>14026597
because you are not a sociopath?
Animals have the same emotions as humans, just because they can't speak our language doesn't mean we should treat them as low level scum.

>>14026694
>Animals have the same emotions as humans, just because they can't speak our language doesn't mean we should treat them as low level scum.
hahahahahahaha

killing unintelligent animals is not cruel if it's done painlessly

/thread

>>14024890
We love dogs because they constitute a desirable pet. Why the hell would you want a pet cow unless you were some kind of eccentric?

>>14024890
This is how the book starts out:
Imagine, for a moment, the following scenario:
You are a guest at an elegant dinner party.
The room is warm, candlelight flickers across crystal wineglasses, and the conversation is flowing freely.
At last, after what feels like hours, your friend who is hosting the party emerges from the kitchen with a steaming pot of savory stew.
The aroms of meat, seasonings, and vegetables fill the room.
You serve yourself a generous portion, and after eating several mouthfuls of tender meat, you ask your friend for the recipe.
"I'd be happy to tell you," she replies, "You begin with five pounds of golden retriever meat, well marinated, and then..." Golden retriever? You probably freeze midbite as you consider her words: the meat in your mouth is from a dog.
What now? Do you continue eating? Or are you revolted by the fact that there's golden retriever on your plate, and you've just eaten some?


If you realize that animal are not so different than us I'd recommend reading it.
Here's the whole book in pdf:
https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/podzim2017/ENS283/um/Joy-Why-We-Love-Dogs-Eat-Pigs-and-Wear-Cows-An-Introduction-to-Carnism-2009.pdf

>>14026702
He's right.

>>14026573
> Life must cannibalize itself in order to continue. Saying "no" to that process on principle is saying no to life.

I'm glad you admit this universe is a giant machine eating itself, why wouldn't you say "no" to that? What is this sacred cow called Life you're gesturing towards if its fuel is death and suffering? Because fuck me, you got yours?

>>14026772
Wait is this book pro-vegetarian? The title makes it seem like it's trying to btfo vegetarians. Answer the title question would properly show that vegetarians are retards

>>14026759
>unintelligent
You do realize that plants have intelligence too.
How do you define intelligence?
It's murder. If you take away someones life it's called murder. Just because the animal can't say fuck you you piece of shit doesn't mean it's okay to kill it.
Watch some slaughter house video or go to a village in eastern europe and see how the animals know when they are going to get killed and you can see the fucking fear in their eyes and also the screams are pretty fucked up. They don't want to be killed. Who are you to say it's okay to kill them.
Meat is not necessary for you to keep on living.
Why do you think taste > life ?

>>14024948
Non human animals aren’t capable of innocence.

>>14026785
It is a book about carnism.
Carnism is a concept used in discussions of humanity's relation to other animals, defined as a prevailing ideology in which people support the use and consumption of animal products, especially meat.[n 1] Carnism is presented as a dominant belief system supported by a variety of defense mechanisms and mostly unchallenged assumptions.[1][2][3][4] The term carnism was coined by social psychologist and author Melanie Joy in 2001 and popularized by her book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows (2009).[5][6][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism

It's a quick read. Give it a try. It changed my perception on this topic a lot.
The author is a psychologist.

>>14024948
You may as well kill yourself because you will never effect that kind of change as an individual. Even if it were a "top down process" that happened to align with your personal desires, you'd have personally nothing to do with the outcome. It would require millions of like-minded individuals, which is where all change starts

>>14026826
But you said
>animal are not so different than us
and plenty of animals eat each other in significantly more gruesome ways than people do. If you truly believe that we're not different than animals why would we stop eating meat?

>>14024948
all it takes is enough people to throw their hands up and rationalize their personal contribution to the system like you do for the system to be what it is. don't you understand that?

>>14026863
Lions don't create assembly lines of death for gazelles. Oh but if they could they would, right? Yeah, I guess, just like if my grandmother had balls she'd be my grandfather

>>14026802
absolute nonsense, you can kill animals in a second with them having no idea what's going on if it's done right, or you can use anaesthetics to put them to sleep before killing them

>>14026888
This post is nonsense, because that's not what happens

Veganism incl. the abstinence from animal husbandry is a response to a legitimate issue (industrial farming) but in the end is simply hiding from the issue. Humans are stewards of the land, and raising animals to non industrial scale is a healthy aspect of tending to the land. This will have some effects that mirror the fantasy of "forced vegetarianism", meat being a more rare and expensive food, leather goods being particularly unaffordable, etc, as sustainable practices are unlikely to produce consumer products for the mass market.

>>14024890
Honestly, the reason I'm not vegan/vegetarian is because it is too damn difficult and expensive (in terms of time). I like to eat and focus on the taste and texture of the stuff in my mouth and the fumes I smell, but as a vegetarian or vegan you have to play minesweeper before you can really activate your senses with anything you didnt prepare yourself and if you lose you cant fucking eat. You might be a vegan because you love nature, but it is really unnatural.

>>14026870
But you're not just arguing that we shouldn't slaughter animals in factory farms, you're arguing that we shouldn't slaughter animals period, which is in direct contradiction with the presupposition of your entire argument.

>>14026913
vegetarianism is a moral necessity only for modern systems like ours

>>14026870
>if my grandmother had balls she'd be my grandfather

Is this supposed to be illogical? Because it sounds pretty logical to me.

>>14026928
But now you're essentially outlining that man has made a system entirely unlike anything an animal could, which is still in contradiction of the idea that animals are just like people. You did that here >>14026870 as well.

>>14026948
semantics, animals participate and suffer in a world like people do, that's all that means

>muh animals

Lol, pls

>>14026954
But animals clearly don't care about the suffering of the animals they eat, in some cases they'll even eat each other alive. If we're just like animals shouldn't we be equally as indifferent to the suffering of those we eat? Factory farms certainly aren't ideal, but are you really implying that the suffering that's undergone by an animal in a factory farm is worse than the suffering undergone by an animal that's eaten alive, and that this difference of suffering is so significant that it forms a line over which animals would not cross?

>>14026976
>Factory farms certainly aren't ideal, but are you really implying that the suffering that's undergone by an animal in a factory farm is worse than the suffering undergone by an animal that's eaten alive, and that this difference of suffering is so significant that it forms a line over which animals would not cross?

factory farming isn't replacing predation in nature, it's being heaped on top of it. this is a problem of scale. and besides, an animal that is eaten in the wild at least lived the life adequate to it

>>14026992
But animals don't care about scale, they'll kill as many of each other as they need to in order to survive. I don't know of any instances that show that animals are somehow concerned with the scale of slaughter necessary to keep them alive. They're certainly not concerned with whether the animals they eat had an adequate life beforehand. None of these arguments of suffering or scale or quality of life follow logically from the foundational premise.

>>14024890
>If you think of yourself as a moral person.

Vegans don't have a consistent set rules for morality regarding animals. They've never made any attempts to clarify their views or come up with any standard.

>Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?

Animal cruelty still happens regularly in agriculture. Many animals that are considered pests are killed via pesticides, harvesting combines, and manual extermination such as rabbits, coyotes, caterpillars, earthworms, etc.

Where do you guys draw the line between the living beings that are appropriate to kill/harm and inappropriate to kill/harm?

To what extent would you go to ensure that your actions and lifestyle won't harm any animal, directly or indirectly?

In what circumstances are appropriate to kill an animal?

What is your stance on microscopic animals like tardigardes?

I support it because humans are naturally adapted to eat meat. Also bring vegan/literally literally shrinks your brain size

>>14027028
>Also bring vegan/literally literally shrinks your brain size
citation needed though

>>14024890
>If you think of yourself as a moral person. Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?
i don't think of anyone as moral or otherwise, but one could very easily justify eating and wearing animals and not doing the same for humans. it's quite simple actually: a cow can't help me build a house. they are only valuable to me in as much as they feed me, clothe me, and pull plows.

>>14026992
>an animal that is eaten in the wild at least lived the life adequate to it

That's just a romantic fantasy. Many animals don't live their full lifespans because of predation. Heck, many don't even live past their youth. When they're predated, these animals suffer gruesome deaths. Being attacked, maimed, and eaten alive by a predator is even more agonizing and cruel than being slaughtered in a factory.

>>14027037
https://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html

Human brains became the way they're now because our ancestors ate meat. It doesn't take a genius to figure that being vegan isn't good for your brain. The only animals that eat plants exclusively in nature are dumb prey animals. If we all became vegan, we would regress to a society similar to what's depicted in the movie Idiocracy.

>>14025669
>They are very tasty and filling
If eating a human was very tasty (it probably is) you would be okay with us killing and eating each other?

>since they can't make the sort of choices that let us function in society for themselves.
Neither can kids or people with disabilities.

>>14024890

western culture evolved alongside wild dogs and domesticated them for companionship, and protection. We also domesticated cows and pigs, but either for labor or food.

>this is arbitrary speciesm

yes, if you consider 100s of years of social and physical evolution as arbitrary. Also the idea of speciesm is speciest. Go fuck a cow peter singer.

>>14027065
Are you implying that humans and animals are the same?

>>14026863
Animals are not different from us in respect to how they feel. They feel love, fear, joy etc like we do.
Do you like to hurt others? Probably not. So why would you support the slaughter of millions so you can satisfy your taste buds?

>>14024890

How is eating animals immoral?

>>14027098
If animals are no different from us in respect to how they feel than why do they not care about the suffering, scale, or quality of life of the animals they eat alive bite by bite?

>>14024890
>If you think of yourself as a moral person. Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?
I'm not a moral person though. I'm a pig. The West is basically a colossal pig house of freaks whose existence depends on exploitation of both humans and animals. Just eating them is nothing compared to how modern society treats animals. I don't care enough to actually change it. Almost no one else does either. Because we're pigs.
>Do you think veganism is the first step in saving this rotten society and reversing our effect on nature?
We can't really reverse it since breeding is permanent. Chickens can't go back to being undomesticated again, nor can cows, pigs or any other domesticated species.

>>14027103
Dumb privileged kids got brainwashed by PETA videos

>>14024890
>Is taste more important to you than life?
My health is more important to me than a cow's health. Now hurry up and Go extinct, evolutionary throwback.
Saged.

>>14024899
>palm products which means extensive deforestation.

Pretty sure that growing grain for livestock uses far more land than palm trees use.

>>14027081
Are you implying that matters?

>>14024948
>I would happily join a vegetarian paramilitary group, overthrow the government, and outlaw the meat industry.

No you wouldn't you stupid fuck. You would use the same excuse of "they already have 10,000 members, what would 1 more person do? I'll stay home and continue being a part of the status quo".

>>14027183
Pretty sure palm trees can't be grow everywhere and have far less usable product than grain.

>>14027187
If it doesn't matter, then leave society and go live in the jungle.

>>14027211
Not an argument

Dogs are more useful alive than dead.

Also:
>eat pigs
>photo of a hot dog, which is typically made of beef

>>14027187
I wouldn't ask it if it didn't, so is that a yes or a no?

>>14027230
No it doesn't matter.

>>14024890
>If you think of yourself as a moral person. Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?
My morality depends on genetic closeness. I don't necessarily support animal cruelty, though I do buy animal products that are probably from factory farms.
>Do you think veganism is the first step in saving this rotten society and reversing our effect on nature?
No. The only positive thing it will do is slightly reduce the suffering of the animals the vegan would have eaten and the environmental effects, maybe.
>Is taste more important to you than life?
Yes.
>Do you think it's okay to look at other animals as property?
Yes. Humans as well.

>>14027236
It clearly does matter as I've argued pretty successfully here-
>>14026785
>>14026863
>>14026913
>>14026948
>>14026976
>>14027016
>>14027109
You made a moral equivalence between humans and animals by likening the slaughter of animals to the slaughter of humans. If humans are the same as animals then we really have no obligation to treat them any differently than they treat each other.

>>14027216
Looks like you enjoy the comforts of human society too much to live like an animal.

>>14024948
People like you are the worst, it’s always someone else’s problem to fix because you don’t want to take the responsibility yourself.

>>14026863
Humans have choice and morals. An animal kills another animal for survival. Also curious by your own logic you don't eat herbivores right?

>>14027053
wtf i love factory farms now

so let's optimize and mechanize the universe's cruelty then, I suppose

>>14027060
kek, if only you knew the ontological death slide that meat-eating has initiated for this species. look around you and what all these big, bulging brains are building lmao, was it worth it?

>>14026777
Animals experience emotions and may have some form of emotional memory but that’s nothing compared to existential dread. They have very little concept of death and thus don’t fear it. So long as they don’t have a bad life (factory farming) I see no problem with their death.

>>14027339
Okay, so if we're not the same as animals because we have higher capacities for thought and feelings, isn't it entirely unjustified to assign the same value to humans as to animals? Shouldn't we have different standards for how we treat humans and animals?

>Also curious by your own logic you don't eat herbivores right?
What? Herbivores aren't herbivores out of some misplaced morality like vegetarians are. Even strict herbivores like cows and deer will occasionally eat meat. You can find plenty of videos of farm cows eating chickens alive not out of hungry desperation but simply because they felt like it.

>>14026802
You literally put the counter argument in your comment. Plants have intelligence too and have been seem to emit a chemical response to damage and even tell neighbouring plants. Why are you confident that we shouldn’t distinguish between man and animals but plants are still put to one side?

>>14027387
I wouldn't either, if we just were always cognizant of this system of death and consumption we participate in. But that's the farthest thing from anybody's minds today. Just shrink-wrapped corpses falling out of the void, out of sight, out of mind.

>>14027402
If an alien race that was much smarter and much more powerful than us came to earth do you think ethically they should be able to wipe us all out because we don't have the same capacity as them?

>What? Herbivores aren't herbivores out of some misplaced morality like vegetarians are. Even strict herbivores like cows and deer will occasionally eat meat. You can find plenty of videos of farm cows eating chickens alive not out of hungry desperation but simply because they felt like it.

You are really using that argument. You scared of a cow. Just because there are some psycho cows who munch on chickens that look like leaves doesn't mean it's a good argument for eating an entire species that wouldn't eat you or any other animal 99.9% of the time. Humans eat other humans too sometimes you know but we don't write off the human species.

>>14027501
Don't listen to him. He contradicts himself every other line. Animals are lesser creatures we should eat and they deserve nothing from us, but hey oh would you look at that cow eating a chicken, we should be more like that cow.

Completely incoherent. You're either above nature's round, or you're not. If you want to meat, that's fine, but don't appeal to your enlarged prefrontal lobe.

>>14024890
>If you think of yourself as a moral person.
I don't.

>>14027550
Not an argument

>>14027575
I pointed to a contradiction in your thinking, you pointed to a YouTube video.

>>14027618
I'm not the guy you think your replying to.

>>14027501
>If an alien race that was much smarter and much more powerful than us came to earth do you think ethically they should be able to wipe us all out because we don't have the same capacity as them?
Well sure it would be ethical for them just as it would be ethical for us to exterminate them to eliminate an existential threat to our survival as a species.

>psycho cows
Are you like 12? Do you really fucking think herbivores are herbivores for ethical reasons? Do you think every deer in the world just up and decided to eat grass because muh poor animals?

>>14027550
Please point out a contradiction I've made. I haven't expressed my personal views once before this post where I was asked about aliens. Other than that I've only explored the logic of other posters, and the contradictions they themselves are holding.

>>14027191
It depends how high ranking you are. A private might not make much of a difference but a general or commander would. Plus, 1/10,000 is a lot different to 1/billions

>>14025096
>Certainly the extreme of veganism is no pets allowed.
>Certainly the extreme of not eating animals is never, under any circumstances, giving them food and shelter out of a sense of love and obligation.
If anything, a consistent vegan would advocate for an increase in funding to animal shelters, with the end goal of placing animals in homes that would adequately care for them.

>>14027661
>Well sure it would be ethical for them just as it would be ethical for us to exterminate them to eliminate an existential threat to our survival as a species.
Animals provide an existential threat to you as a species? The aliens would be having an ethical debate as to whether or not they should kill us for pleasure. You think they would be justified in just murdering us all for pleasure?

>Are you like 12? Do you really fucking think herbivores are herbivores for ethical reasons? Do you think every deer in the world just up and decided to eat grass because muh poor animals?
It doesn't matter why they do it obviously. Your slaughtering an animal that isn't gonna harm you in anyway yet you feel justified.

>>14027661
Two questions one do you think torturing an animal for pleasure is okay and two do you think it's ethically justified to kill and eat a human who kills other humans?

>>14027717
>Animals provide an existential threat to you as a species?
Of course not?

>You think they would be justified in just murdering us all for pleasure?
No, they'd be justified in murdering us for resources or really just to snuff out a potential threat considering the realistic implications of an inter-species war across space. Of course if they were murdering us for pleasure I'd assume it's because they hold us to different standards than they do themselves. I guess that would be an apt analogy for hunting.

>Your slaughtering an animal that isn't gonna harm you in anyway yet you feel justified.
I don't think anybody who eats meat does it because they feel the animal they're eating was an existential threat to their existence, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here?

>>14027772
>Two questions one do you think torturing an animal for pleasure is okay and
Generally no.

>two do you think it's ethically justified to kill and eat a human who kills other humans?
Hmmm, I don't think it's unethical, assuming the person being killed was unjustified when he killed. I personally wouldn't eat someone and I wouldn't associate with people who do for health reasons, but I don't think it's unethical as long as the kill itself was justified.

>>14024890
>Do you think veganism is the first step in saving this rotten society and reversing our effect on nature?
No, moralization and castration of desires is what makes life more shitty and decadent.

>>14027801
>Of course if they were murdering us for pleasure I'd assume it's because they hold us to different standards than they do themselves
Let's say it was because they wanted to consume your flesh. How is this not justified? We are lesser beings.

>I don't think anybody who eats meat does it because they feel the animal they're eating was an existential threat to their existence, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here?
I'm saying your argument for eating herbivores is a cope. If we were to find a herbivore that never ate a piece of meat (and would never) in the history of the species would you say it's unethical to kill it?

>Generally no.
Why is that?

>Hmmm, I don't think it's unethical, assuming the person being killed was unjustified when he killed. I personally wouldn't eat someone and I wouldn't associate with people who do for health reasons, but I don't think it's unethical as long as the kill itself was justified.
So you would be fine with people going to the local jail and taking out all the murderers who are doing 20 year sentences and eat them lol?

>>14027849
>Let's say it was because they wanted to consume your flesh. How is this not justified? We are lesser beings.
So like the Tom Cruise War of the Worlds? Sure they'd be justified but we'd be equally as justified in exterminating them and generally doing whatever we can to escape fate. At the level of inter-species competition where losing is extinction, really anything is justified.

>I'm saying your argument for eating herbivores is a cope. If we were to find a herbivore that never ate a piece of meat (and would never) in the history of the species would you say it's unethical to kill it?
I don't think any herbivores exist that are capable of that level of thought because I don't think animals have the capacity to hold moral principles. Sure they can be compassionate but they don't hold overarching, unbreakable beliefs. I think you're focusing on herbivores for the wrong reasons and that you misunderstood me when I talked about animals eating other animals, which I really only brought up to break presupposition that humans are the same as animals, which a lot of other posters were standing by. I don't personally hold the distinction between herbivores and carnivores to be important to the justification of meat-eating at all.

>Why is that?
It's suffering with no purpose. I'm not morally opposed to the idea of torture, like say if you were torturing someone for information. I think that would be justified. Of course it becomes questionable when you don't know whether the person you're torturing actually has the information you're torturing them for, and it becomes immoral when you're torturing them for no real reason at all beyond hedonism.

>So you would be fine with people going to the local jail and taking out all the murderers who are doing 20 year sentences and eat them lol?
It depends on whether the prisoners being executed committed a crime warranting execution. I wouldn't want people in my community eating humans because of the diseases associated with cannibalism, but my qualms with it aren't ethical. That said, the whole idea of long-term jail sentences seems really weird to me in general. Bring back banishment and maybe more creative punishments rather than feeding and housing someone for decades.

>>14027825
>Nietzsche would have WANTED me to eat this burger

Here we go again. We need a coomer equivalent for meat eaters like this

>>14027893
Shit. Not that board. Sorry.

>>14027065
>If eating a human was very tasty (it probably is) you would be okay with us killing and eating each other?
I'm not morally opposed to eating humans that die, in principle, but it would be an extemelly likely venue for disease transmission, specially prion diseases. It would also create perverse incentives to activelly prevent safeguards for other humans.

I don't think cannibals are specially evil for not wasting as much food as other equally violent cultures, but it's not a universally adaptive strategy.

Anyway, we, as a collective, value human lives over their taste and we value minimal human welfare improvements over the lives of non-human animals - the law reflects this. As to particular animals and people, the value can vary a lot on a subjective basis. I obviously care about my house pets more than about strangers on the other side of the country and I care more about making my pets happy by giving them food that they love than about the animals that are ground up into that pet food. But those considerations have no place in a court of law, where we vie for objectivity and expect neutral arbitration.

>Neither can kids or people with disabilities.
And we treat them like property, somewhere between private and public. Where abortion and euthanasia are legal we confer the legal guardians, usually relatives, sometimes the state, the decision over life and death. They have rights, same as animals, and corpses, and legal constructs. How many rights and how strongly the rights of each entity type are enforced reflects closely how we (or state powers) feel about them collectively. I personally like pitbulls more than witless babies, but I get why the law sides with the babies over the pitties.

>>14027951
>He thinks i would do things just because Nietzsche would've wanted
To be honest Nietzsche would very likely be agaisnt veganism as in the moral sense that you try to impose.

But again, i like eating meat and neither is it making me unable to obtain some other objective that i see in life, so it isnt a problem like masturbation is for some people in here.
Telling me that i need to stop eating animals because of their suffering is life denying.

>>14027944
>So like the Tom Cruise War of the Worlds? Sure they'd be justified but we'd be equally as justified in exterminating them and generally doing whatever we can to escape fate. At the level of inter-species competition where losing is extinction, really anything is justified.
It's not a war though and you have no chance. It's just them deciding if they want a tasty snack.

>I don't think animals have the capacity to hold moral principles.
What about disabled people?

>It's suffering with no purpose.
The purpose is pleasure for whoever gets pleasure from torturing animals. Killing them and eating them is okay but torturing isn't? Killing is worse than torture imo. It's like saying you aren't allowed to torture humans but you are allowed to execute whoever you want. If they are lesser than us to warrant killing there is no ethical argument for not also being able to torture them.

>It depends on whether the prisoners being executed committed a crime warranting execution. I wouldn't want people in my community eating humans because of the diseases associated with cannibalism, but my qualms with it aren't ethical.
That's really fucking weird dude.

>That said, the whole idea of long-term jail sentences seems really weird to me in general.
Are you a pol guy?

>>14028008
>It's not a war though and you have no chance. It's just them deciding if they want a tasty snack.
It would be a war it would just be very, very one-sided.

>What about disabled people?
I mean some disabled people definitely don't have full human capacities lmao it depends what you mean by disabled.

>Killing them and eating them is okay but torturing isn't?
I didn't say that, I said torturing for no reason other than personal pleasure is not okay just as killing for no reason other than personal pleasure isn't okay. Torturing for information or killing for meat? You're not torturing for the sake of torture there or killing for the sake of killing, there's a material reason for what you're doing. Of course these rules apply differently to humans, to cows, to rats, to aphids, etc.

>That's really fucking weird dude.
I mean I think most people I know would at least try a piece of human if they knew it wasn't unethically sourced. Of course beyond just the danger of prions the problem with cannibalism is that you have to kill someone to get it, which is immoral. I'd still say cannibalism is general should be illegal, but there's really nothing immoral with eating human on it's own.

>Are you a pol guy?
I used to go to /pol/ years ago but I haven't posted there in years at this point. I mostly stick to /fit/, /lit/, and /biz/.

>>14028076
>I mean some disabled people definitely don't have full human capacities lmao it depends what you mean by disabled.
Disabled people who don't have the capacity to have morals.

> I said torturing for no reason other than personal pleasure is not okay just as killing for no reason other than personal pleasure isn't okay. T
What is your reasoning for this in regards to animals? You kill and eat them for pleasure. Why can't you torture them? Both are suffering.

>I mean I think most people I know would at least try a piece of human if they knew it wasn't unethically sourced.
I think the problem is them not consenting to have their remains eaten.

>>14026802
>judaism
>naturalism
vs
>aryanism
>idealism
>

>>14028111
>Disabled people who don't have the capacity to have morals.
What about them?

>What is your reasoning for this in regards to animals? You kill and eat them for pleasure. Why can't you torture them? Both are suffering.
No, animals die because I need to eat and I try to eat the healthiest diet possible, which includes meat.

>I think the problem is them not consenting to have their remains eaten.
Prisoners forfeited the right to consent afforded by the social contract when they violated it in a way warranting execution. But again I'm not advocating for it, I'd be against grinding up serial killers for food for non-ethical reasons.

>>14028135
>What about them?
Why shouldn't we be allowed to kill and eat them. Unless you think we should.

>No, animals die because I need to eat and I try to eat the healthiest diet possible, which includes meat.
I'm not much into the nutrition part of veganism but I don't think there is much debate there. With supplements there is no reason to eat meat for health reasons and I doubt that's the only reason because let's say it was healthier to not eat meat I would bet you wouldn't stop because you enjoy the pleasure of eating meat.

>Prisoners forfeited the right to consent afforded by the social contract when they violated it in a way warranting execution.
Who owns the remains?

>>14024890
I'm not drinking cockroach milk, now get a job hippie!

>>14028164
>Why shouldn't we be allowed to kill and eat them. Unless you think we should.
I suppose if they were braindead, and had agreed that it was okay to euthanize and eat them prior to being braindead it would not be unethical.

>With supplements there is no reason to eat meat for health reasons
They're called supplements, not substitutes, for a reason. Meat offers all kinds of nutrients that a multivitamin or protein supplement is not going to contain. We still don't entirely understand this stuff and there's a constant back and forth in nutritional literature as to whether things like red meat are good or bad. It seems incredibly short-sighted and frankly arrogant to think we know enough about this stuff to eliminate entire food groups from our diet that have been present there for the lifespan of our species.

>I doubt that's the only reason because let's say it was healthier to not eat meat I would bet you wouldn't stop because you enjoy the pleasure of eating meat.
If things were different, they would be different

>Who owns the remains?
I suppose it would be handled the same way their possessions are handled, via will.

>>14028228
>I suppose if they were braindead, and had agreed that it was okay to euthanize and eat them prior to being braindead it would not be unethical.
Why would consent matter if they can't uphold the social contract?

>If things were different, they would be different
It kinda changes everything if the only reason your eating meat is because you want to be healthy.

This would mean killing animals that weren't beneficial to your health would be bad right?

>>14027999
>Telling me that i need to stop eating animals because of their suffering is life denying.

Life denial is the unreflective pursuit of desire

>>14028265
>Why would consent matter if they can't uphold the social contract?
They never violated the social contract so the government is not punishing them. However, they don't have the capacity to make their own decisions so they're in the stead of their family. That doesn't mean they don't have legal rights it just means they don't have the capacity to understand they have rights. If they did once have that capacity and they made a definitive decision about what was to be done with their body, like say allowing cannibalism, then there's nothing immoral about eating them.

>This would mean killing animals that weren't beneficial to your health would be bad right?
I said I try to eat healthy, I'm not a robot so I don't always eat healthy 100% of the time. I try to no eat too many empty calories, avoid sugar, and get the vitamins and protein I need. I lift so I eat a meat-heavy diet. Cutting meat out of my diet would be a conscious decision to alter my diet in an unhealthy way, which is the sort of thing I avoid.

>>14024890
Invertebrates don't feel pain

>>14028338
>They never violated the social contract so the government is not punishing them.
What if an animal doesn't violate the social contract?

>like say allowing cannibalism, then there's nothing immoral about eating them.
Based I wish our society was like yours so I could pay off mothers to eat their downy babies.

>I said I try to eat healthy, I'm not a robot so I don't always eat healthy 100% of the time. I try to no eat too many empty calories, avoid sugar, and get the vitamins and protein I need. I lift so I eat a meat-heavy diet. Cutting meat out of my diet would be a conscious decision to alter my diet in an unhealthy way, which is the sort of thing I avoid.

So you are also eating meat for pleasure then.

>>14028339
>this animal in clear distress is not actually feeling it
>I don't have an ulterior motive to convince myself of this, not at all

Sure, sure

What about places with (virtually) no arable land, like the Middle East or the Faroe Islands, that rely on meat/livestock to survive?

What about the multiple cases of children becoming malnourished after being fed vegan diets? Or indeed any vitamin/testosterone-deficient person that needs an amount of protein or iron or whatever that non-meat sources simply can't provide?

Do bugs deserve the same animal rights? Should bug sprays or mouse traps be banned?

How about the ratio of introduced invasive predatory animals to native animals being killed? Wouldn't it technically be better for animals as a whole to allow the culling of cat for example?

I could go on - Veganism is completely retarded on multiple levels.
As for 'animal rights' in general, of course there's nothing wrong with wanting to treat animals nicely - even from a selfish perspective it's better to look after livestock to allow for a healthier animal product - but until a cow writes a symphony, or ape invent space travel, animals will *never* be our equals, and we have every right to exploit them to our gain.

>>14024890
>Why do you eat animals
It pleases me to do so, and is good for me. Animals only exist for my benefit anyway.

>support animal cruelty
"Factory farming" of animals is bad but I just don't care that much. The main ill effects are on those who actually run the industry.

>>14028365
>What if an animal doesn't violate the social contract?
Animals aren't humans, they don't have the capacity to understand social contracts.

>Based I wish our society was like yours so I could pay off mothers to eat their downy babies.
Nah that's a great way to get prions. I've got no problem with eugenics though.

>So you are also eating meat for pleasure then.
I eat healthy foods that I enjoy, but I certainly avoid unhealthy foods that I enjoy. I don't like peas but I eat broccoli and cauliflower and green beans so the fact that I don't eat peas doesn't impact my health in any kind of significant way. Like yeah, sometimes I'll eat steak because I like it but I'm not going to stop eating steak because that would be unhealthy. I don't see vegetarian "alternatives" to steak or pork or chicken to be actual alternatives. I'll eat eggplant or portabello mushrooms instead of meat sometimes but it would be unhealthy to substitute meat with stuff like that for my entire diet.

>>14028449
>It pleases me to do so, and is good for me. Animals only exist for my benefit anyway.
I want to eat your butthole because it's pleasing to me and you only exist for my benefit.

>>14024948
>drastically lower CO2 emissions
global climate change is a cult, you might as well tell me that it would drastically reduce the power of Adrammelech the Greater

>muh animal holocaust
who cares

>increase food production
Is there a shortage? There is not.

>lower obesity rates
Replacing meat with vegetable oil is not going to solve obesity, in fact it will probably make it worse.

>healthier population
live longer? maybe. Stronger, more vital? No.

>free up land
For what? Cattle grazing is about the most marginal land use there is.

>>14028414
>invasive species
Yes, I agree, we should eat cats

>>14028457
>Animals aren't humans, they don't have the capacity to understand social contracts.
Neither do disabled people.
>Nah that's a great way to get prions. I've got no problem with eugenics though.
You are a pol dude. I should went further on that. What's your ideology?

>I eat healthy foods that I enjoy, but I certainly avoid unhealthy foods that I enjoy. I don't like peas but I eat broccoli and cauliflower and green beans so the fact that I don't eat peas doesn't impact my health in any kind of significant way. Like yeah, sometimes I'll eat steak because I like it but I'm not going to stop eating steak because that would be unhealthy. I don't see vegetarian "alternatives" to steak or pork or chicken to be actual alternatives. I'll eat eggplant or portabello mushrooms instead of meat sometimes but it would be unhealthy to substitute meat with stuff like that for my entire diet.
So you do eat meat for pleasure then.

>>14024890
>Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals.
Yes, that sounds accurate
>If you think of yourself as a moral person. Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?
I am on the whole moral and ethical. I do not support animal cruelty. I do eat meat. Livestock can be raised well and humanely for food without cruelty or abuse.
>Do you think veganism is the first step in saving this rotten society and reversing our effect on nature?
No.
>Is taste more important to you than life?
Than whose life?
>Do you think it's okay to look at other animals as property?
Yes.
>Has anyone read this book:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Love_Dogs,_Eat_Pigs,_and_Wear_Cows
No, and I don't have much interest in it either.

>t. someone raised on a ranch where animals were treated well, but still ultimately recognized as means to a livelihood. Also, dogs are the best.

>>14028479
>Neither do disabled people.
Sufficiently disabled people are in the stead of their families.

>pol
I don't know where you're from but it's not here

>I should went further on that. What's your ideology?
Anti-capitalist nationalist.

>So you do eat meat for pleasure then.
You're comparing macro and micro here. Meal-to-meal I'm going to eat what I like in a balanced way from the group of foods I deem healthy enough to eat. Looking at my entire diet, I eat meat because it's healthy and it would be unhealthy to not eat meat. Like, if I went to a restaurant to get a steak and you said "here try my portabello mushroom instead its really good" I'd probably try it. If I went to a restaurant to get a steak and you said "cut meat entirely out of your diet" I'm not going to do that because it would be unhealthy to not eat meat at all.

>>14028555
>Sufficiently disabled people are in the stead of their families.
Ok so disabled people who have no family.

Go more on the eugenics I'd like to hear your arguments.

> I'd probably try it. If I went to a restaurant to get a steak and you said "cut meat entirely out of your diet"
The steak goes in your mouth you like the taste your brain say good. Pleasure. You get pleasure from the meat. It's not neutral right? You don't eat meat like you eat a supplement just to get your daily vitamins but because you enjoy or is it like vitamins?

>>14026772
>What now? Do you continue eating? Or are you revolted by the fact that there's golden retriever on your plate, and you've just eaten some?
Am I in a dog eating culture like Korea? If so, I probably keep eating. If I'm not, then no.

But dogs are a bad example, as we have evolved side-by-side them and influenced eachother as species. Mankind and dogs have a special relationship that doesn't exist between mankind and other species.

>>14028587
>Ok so disabled people who have no family.
Like the mentally ill who are all alone? Bring back institutions (of course that would require psychology being a functioning discipline rather than a political tool for radical liberals). 3/4 of homeless people are mentally ill.

>Go more on the eugenics I'd like to hear your arguments.
Well, the most innocuous way I go about supporting it is by supporting abortion. A lot of people on the far right are anti-abortion from a Christian perspective but I'm not religious and frankly I'm fine with stupid people and minorities self-selecting for abortion. It's always funny to have a smarmy feminist bring up abortion only to realize I'm on their side because 2/3 of abortions are black or Hispanic, they never know what to say. The government should offer welfare for voluntary sterilization as well. There are a lot of simple, realistic carrot-and-stick policies like this we could enact without going full autismo gas da retards.

>The steak goes in your mouth you like the taste your brain say good. Pleasure. You get pleasure from the meat. It's not neutral right? You don't eat meat like you eat a supplement just to get your daily vitamins but because you enjoy or is it like vitamins?
Of course I like meat. I like soda even more, but I don't drink soda anymore because it's incredibly unhealthy. I still eat meat because it's an important part of a balanced diet. That I enjoy meat is not the make-or-break here on whether I eat it in my diet.

>>14028651
>It's always funny to have a smarmy feminist bring up abortion only to realize I'm on their side because 2/3 of abortions are black or Hispanic, they never know what to say.
Why you love white people so much when they are just as fucking retarded? Like 80% of the white trash in America believe in ghosts and stupid shit like that. There is no good culture in whites anymore too. It's just rap music and call of duty.

>Of course I like meat. I like soda even more, but I don't drink soda anymore because it's incredibly unhealthy. I still eat meat because it's an important part of a balanced diet. That I enjoy meat is not the make-or-break here on whether I eat it in my diet.
No but it shows that pleasure is a part of eating meat and if we took out the health factors of meat you would still want to kill animals for pleasure.

>>14028684
>Why you love white people so much when they are just as fucking retarded?
Because I'm white and a pro-white society would obviously not discriminate against me or my family for being white the same way our current society does implicity (and increasingly explicitly) or our future society will do explicitly. If I was black it would be a different story and I would be pro-black.

>No but it shows that pleasure is a part of eating meat and if we took out the health factors of meat you would still want to kill animals for pleasure.
That's such a ridiculous hypothetical, if meat had no nutritional value or was actually harmful to us is such an alien scenario. Human society would not exist as we know it, it probably wouldn't even exist at all considering all of the recent studies pointing to the idea that the transition to eating meat in our ancestors lead to acceleration of their brain growth. Like I said, pleasure is not the determining factor in whether something is a part of my diet or not.

>>14028765
>Because I'm white and a pro-white society would obviously not discriminate against me or my family for being white the same way our current society does implicity (and increasingly explicitly) or our future society will do explicitly. If I was black it would be a different story and I would be pro-black.
What discrimination do you have as a white person lol. Black art hoes posts mean tweets about you?

> Like I said, pleasure is not the determining factor in whether something is a part of my diet or not.
Alright then. So in this ridiculous hypothetical there would be no need to kill animals because pleasure is not the determining factor.

>>14026694
>Also our gut is more similar to a herbivore than a carnivore.
Ah yes, I too have 4 stomachs.

>>14028807
>What discrimination do you have as a white person lol. Black art hoes posts mean tweets about you?
One of my roommates was black in college a few years ago. We were both in engineering and while he wasn't stupid, I was smarter than him both on paper and in actuality. But he got about half of his tuition payed for because he had all sorts of grants from African American interest groups for blacks in engineering. No such thing really exists for people like me, despite the fact that I was a better student than him. Plus all of this shit came out where the Asian group sued the Ivy Leagues for discriminating against Asians (and whites) in favor of Hispanics and blacks. It ended up getting thrown out because the schools don't directly discriminate based on race, merely on factors that are directly predictive of race. How many of the schools I applied to but didn't get into were because of something like this? At my job we have Asian business groups and Black business groups and Indian business groups that get all sorts of brownie points and attention from executives, how do you think it would go over if I formed a white one? You think this is going to get better or worse? It's certainly been getting worse over the years in my view, and I doubt it'll get better as whites become a smaller and smaller proportion of the voter base. In South Africa whites aren't allowed to apply for government jobs. I don't see how that's not in our future here as well, and then some.

>Alright then. So in this ridiculous hypothetical there would be no need to kill animals because pleasure is not the determining factor.
In this hypothetical everything would be so different that I couldn't say. My tastes would probably not be the same anyway if we lived in a world where meat was bad.

>>14028875
>No such thing really exists for people like me, despite the fact that I was a better student than him
Yeah blacks have preference in school but whites don't have to get shot on sight by police, arrested and sentenced for longer than whites/crimes they didn't commit, have to deal with their entire race being enslaved and segregated until the 1960s while the whites prospered and secured a future for their children. Cut them some slack no? Your life isn't that bad.

>>14028875
Also since your anti capitalist I'm sure your also enraged with how fucked our system is because of the rich whites in politics/business. They cause much worse things in your life than blacks have ever done.

>>14028949
The police fuck with everyone and there are plenty of videos of them shooting white people. Blacks commit crimes at an absurdly higher disproportionate rate than whites so it's logical that they're going to shoot more black people. And fuck, everyone was enslaved. Blacks enslaved each other and sold them to white people, North Africans enslaved millions of Europeans in the Mediterranean, Turks enslaved millions from the Balkans, and thousands of Irishmen were enslaved in the US. I was born in the 90s and I only have memories of the 21st century, I don't give a fuck about the 60s. Now white people have a skyrocketing drug abuse rate, skyrocketing suicide rate, etc all in a country that used to be ours but is now slowly being weaponized against us. Whatever prosperous times there supposedly were 60 years ago or 600 years ago is long gone, so spare me that bullshit. I don't blame black people for trying to get the most then can out of the system, and I don't blame Hispanics for cheering on the fact that they're going to turn us into a minority in our own country. But at the same time, I don't give a shit about them whining when I say that it's in my and my family's best interests to send them all back and retake control of my country. That's just how it is and I'll do anything to accomplish that goal because in the long-term, it's life or death.

>>14028974
Of course, the white and Jewish elites of our country are perpetuating these anti-white policies for personal gain. Flooding our labor market with cheap labor from the Third World keeps wages suppressed, selling out our industries to China is cheaper, and convincing women to forgo families in favor of a career gives them more worker bees. I'm not against the idea of having very rich people, but they should not have the decision-making capacity that they currently do because they'll gladly sell out the nation as they've been doing and will continue to do. The bourgeoisie need to be subjugated by an ideologically-driven martial class that punishes through force any of the bourgeoisie who seek to undermine the nation for personal gain.

>>14028464
>If you do X to animals you must also do X to people!
ok

>>14029045
Do you think if you get the aid you wanted for college you wouldn't hate black people?

>>14029110
Where did he say or even imply that he "hates" black people?

>>14029045
>, I don't give a shit about them whining when I say that it's in my and my family's best interests to send them all back and retake control of my country.
Where are you going send American born citizens back to?

>>14027681
No, they view it as animal slavery. It's the same reasoning behind why they can't have honey or wool or milk or silk or leather. The animal isn't necessarily harmed but they view it as slavery. The extreme end think that keeping cats is basically the same as being the owner of a cotton plantation in the pro slavery south. Vegans have a lifestyle not just a diet. That's why you see soaps and shoes that advertise themselves as vegan because they can't have any animal products without contributing to animal slavery.

>>14029114
I don't think he denies that he hates black people lol are you retarded

>>14029118
Where did the French Algerians get sent back to?

(Not him but I don't think we can or should send African-Americans "back" anywhere).

>>14029123
What did he say that made you think he hates black people? That he thinks it's unfair they're legally privileged in applying for jobs and education?

>>14029110
>>14029123
Where did I say I hate black people? I don't hate them, on an individual level they're usually pretty jolly people. That said, their having a political say in my country's democracy has been a disaster for my people and the remedy has to include them no longer having that.

>>14029118
Wherever, I don't really care where they go or what they do after they're not here but I don't see anyway simultaneously that these people can stay here as full citizens and my people can have a prosperous future.

>>14029138
No It's him saying he is a white nationalist who supports abortions because it kills hispanics and blacks, how he supports eugenics, and wants to send non whites out of the country. I don't know about you but I would guess he isn't the biggest fan of blacks.

>>14029142
You ever watch this guys videos. His name is Destiny on YT. He debates people who make the same exact arguments you do word for word. I think you should watch his videos. I'm not telling you to watch them because I want to destroy your arguments. The arguments you make are not strong ones even for nationalists. If you watch his videos you will see the underlying problems with the arguments you make. If you do you will make your arguments for nationalism stronger if you see the holes with your current line of thinking and make a more well thought out functional system. Just search up Destiny debates ethnostate or race realism whenever you got some free time.

>>14029209
How about not

>>14029209
I don't really watch youtube shit like this. If there's a book that makes the arguments he makes I'll look into it, but I don't see the utility in these kinds of debates. They're more about the ability the debaters to push the other person into a 'gotcha' moment rather than the validity of the underlying ideas.

>>14029209
Pedophile Steve and his gay buddy Hasan got embarrassed by Nick Fuentes

>>14029229
One of his most used lines is "I'm trying to gotcha here". He is just literally for truth in whatever argument the person brings. I don't think you will find a book as useful as his videos. The people he debates are like you and he will ever go over the entire belief system and how a functional nationalist society would actually work in a debate with someone who doesn't actually know how it would realistically work. The arguments you use are the easily debunked ones. Once he starts debating more experienced nationalists you will see the arguments switch to different ones. Just listen while you cook food or something.

>>14029229
>"I'm not trying to gotcha here"*

>>14029267
>"watch the video equivalent of 4chan it's good"

>>14029269
What?

>>14029263
>The arguments you use are the easily debunked ones
Well yeah I could keep going if I was challenged, there's more to it than I wrote in a single paragraph obviously but I don't really feel like writing a political manifesto after arguing for like 5 hours about vegetarianism. Someone mentioned Nick Fuentes so maybe I'll watch that one since I actually know who Fuentes is and have listened to him before.

>>14029270
Were you not implying that I was trying to gotcha people here in arguments?

>>14029291
You can start there but Destiny and Fuentes have a history so there is a lot of memes in it. Not as serious as his other debates. That one is literally just gonna be a gotcha debate since he is trying to embarrass Fuentes not actually get into a discussion with in like he does with the other people.

>Were you not implying that I was trying to gotcha people here in arguments?
No a line he says often is "I'm not trying to getcha here" when asking a question to someone. He isn't trying to win debates points but actually get to the truth of whatever subject he is talking with someone about.

>>14024948
Enforced veganism would make all animals our competition and we will kill them so they didn't eat our crops and vegetables. Animals like cows, pigs and chickens would likely go extinct without us raising them for consumption.

>>14029302
A history of pedo Steve getting blown out and exposing himself as the effeminate 90 IQ retard he is

>>14029326
I can never tell if these are Destiny fans larping as booger nick supporters or real ones.

>>14029302
I'll give him a listen at work tomorrow I guess

>>14029338
Your meat eating debate skills are on point though. Destiny also a social contract meat eater like you are on and also uses the same arguments you made in a debate with a vegan. I ain't no vegan I was just larping.

>>14029356
Thanks. I could keep going with my political views in the same manner and obviously there's more depth to it than a single paragraph but it's been hours debating here and I'm basically down to a shit-posting mood now.

>>14029146
I mean, I'm a racist but I still oppose "abortions for blacks and hispanics" because it's morally impermissible to murder babies for convenience. If I didn't believe abortion was murder, I'm sure I'd be in favor of it as a practical and humane means to decrease the numbers of people whom I'd prefer there to be less of.

As far as eugenics, who cares. There's immoral ways to pursue eugenics, but everybody is an amateur eugenicist at the very least. That the other poster has some self awareness about this is no discredit to him.

As far as mass deportations, they're certainly not good per se but they've happened repeatedly in recent history without necessarily causing a complete disaster. Again, nobody cares about the "deportation" of the French Algerians, or Iraqi Christians, or any number of other groups.

>>14029302
Oh yeah, he's definitely a guy who argues honestly, without sophistry, and isn't just there to demagogically pander to the apes who like their XY FUCKING DESTROYED WITH LOGIC AND FACTS flavor of the spectacle. Get the fuck out of here.

>>14024890
Why would I care if humans kill animals? Animals get killed all the time out in the wild; it's just how things work. Animals are stupid, have no sense of morality, and don't deserve human rights.

>>14029584
What else is there but logic and facts?

>>14029610
Do I really need to tell you why the Ben Shapiro school of rhetoric is retarded?

Fundamentally the problem is human runaway demography. Veganism and the likes are at best half mesures to limit our footprint on the environment.

>>14024890
You should be protesting your local synagogue or Jewish center for their inhumane Jewish ritual slaughter practices. The Nazi German Government required anesthesia before killing cattle and banned animal lab testing. What are Vegans doing? They just relabeled 'Dieting' with a trendy self rightous, self justifying label

>>14024899

Nice strawman faggot

>>14028283
Oh ok chief, why dont you also deny your desire to see the animals happy then? Like just accept that they are going to get killed.

>>14024890
>If you think of yourself as a moral person. Why do you eat animals and support animal cruelty then?
I don't think of myself as a moral person and anybody who does is fucking delusional. At best we are people trying to be moral.
>Do you think veganism is the first step in saving this rotten society and reversing our effect on nature?
No, of course not.
>Is taste more important to you than life?
Yes, obviously.
>Do you think it's okay to look at other animals as property?
Yes and no. Property, yes. Chattel slaves, no.

>>14028464
>I want to eat your butthole because it's pleasing to me and you only exist for my benefit.
You're welcome to have it if you can take it.

>>14024890
A wild hypothetical here
>Suppose scientists figure out a way to genetically engineer an animal that eats mostly basedbeans and has actual tofu under its basedskin as muscle matter
>It eats, bleeds, mates, raises its children, and dies just like any other animal
>They are released into the wild and become a fully independent animal population which can be raised or hunted for food
>Can vegans eat them?

>>14030105
Veganism is not about not eating meat because it's meat and not tofu, it's about not eating meat because to obtain it you have to kill animals, so the tofu animal of your example would be exactly like any other meat animal to a vegan. Worth noting that some follow veganism more for the ecology implications than the moral ones on animal cruelty, but this tofu animal would still be the same as a meat animal in that regard too.