/lit/ - Literature

Mid-20th century USA is not "trad"

>>14027670
Traditional gender roles are not even remotely close to popular anymore. You'd have to catch lightning in a bottle to publish something that breaks the current cultural mold.

>>14027679
Do you think it's good that we've replaced a more structured take on people's lives with pretty much an amorphous blob of lost souls without purpose?

>>14027670
What are traditional gender roles? Your image represents only a brief moment even within the context of industrial society.

>>14027693
What evidence do you use to conclude people are more lost and without purpose than 70 years ago?

>>14027698
What my grandparents were like

>>14027679
Spend less time on /pol/

>>14027725
People look happy in all those photos of family BBQs from the 50s

>>14027750
lmao I'm imagining someone from 2100 watching a Nintendo Switch commercial and yearning for the days when families got together every night to play video games

>>14027750
People look happy in all those photos of family BBQs from the 10's.

>>14027732
Mine were working together every day running their farm and raising my father.

>>14027784
>>14027777
fuck off, its a widely accepted fact that the 50s were a better time

>>14027802
Widely accepted by whom? /pol/?

>>14027802
Nice argument.

>>14027812
>>14027814
I mean it kind of was, before the US and Soviets decided to piss it all away with pointless competition.

>>14027827
>it's a widely accepted fact
>i mean it kind of was
Can you actually form an argument rather than stating your opinions?

>>14027846
I'm not that guy. It's just that the 1950s were kind of an "ideal" scenario in terms of resource availability, population and technological development. The world most likely could have become utopic if it weren't for the fact that Americans believe it is immoral to value the integrity of others regardless of productivity and that wageslaving is dignified.

Actually it wasn't, and most people agree with me.

>>14027861
Actually it wasn't, and most people agree with me.

>>14027670
plenty of people write it, nobody would publish or market it.

>>14027725
>What evidence do you use to conclude people are more lost and without purpose than 70 years ago?
Rising suicide rates.
Rising depression rates.
Rising anxiety rates.
Each one can be easily checked by the simplest google searches.
Another interesting statistic is that generalized anxiety disorder is more prevalent in developed countries than in underdeveloped (and more traditional) countries.
But considering today's culture compared to then, you don't have to look far to see the cause. The destruction of community, the disintegration of family, the constant encouragement to hedonistic pursuits, the slow death of religion (which for better or worse did provide a framework for morals for the average person) and so on.

>>14027861
in 1950 the life expectancy for men in the usa was 65
fuck that

>>14027901
Is it not possible that suicide attempts are reported more often, and depression and anxiety are diagnosed more rather than being more prevalent? Also suicide and depression represent a slim portion of the population, and an increase in anxiety would likely be a result of changing ways of life rather than existential considerations? The only factor that definitely relates to it is the loss of religion, but it's mostly religious people who describe the non-religious as "lost and without purpose."

>>14027901
Also what do you mean by the disintegration of family? I know it's anecdotal, but my family is definitely closer than my grandparents' were.

>>14027904
>>14027876
There were several structural issues at the time, I am not denying that. I just believe that around that time the world had the opportunity to develop an ideal society on account of conditions related to technology, resources and populations, but instead chose to piss it away during the cold war.

>>14027996
Do you really think they "chose" to go down this route or was it inevitable that their situation would lead this way

>>14027963
>Is it not possible that suicide attempts are reported more often
Maybe I'm missing your point, but the actual 'deaths of despair' meaning suicides are higher now than in the past 50 years. Not attempts.
>and depression and anxiety are diagnosed more rather than being more prevalent?
The studies that compared the populations did it with comparable-sized groups.

>Also suicide and depression represent a slim portion of the population
You asked for evidence, inasmuch as it can be called so, I provided the declining mental health during this span of time. The fact that those affected are a slim portion compared to the overall population doesn't address that the affected are more rather than less now.

>and an increase in anxiety would likely be a result of changing ways of life rather than existential considerations?
I think those two are inextricably linked. And considering that it is usually negative changes that bring about anxiety, the changing ways of life might not be that good.

>Also what do you mean by the disintegration of family?
The family used to be tribal or clan-like in its original state. You can still see it in Eastern European countries, 3 or 4 generations living in the same village. Different houses but sharing one communal plot of land. You had a large default support system in grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc. Then it got reduced to the nuclear family - parents and children.
Then the divorce rates spiked. Birth rates dropped. Marriage isn't an institution anymore, if anything it's as fake as the Elvis impersonator that officiates it.
The current culture being pushed is that of a complete shunning of responsibility and embracing hedonism - party when young! - through alcohol, drugs and promiscuity. Which as studies show lessen your chances at pair-bonding later on in life.

>>14027802
only if you're some pathetic nostalgia faggot. EVERYBODY says the Eisenhower was oh so great but they forget

1) Communism everywhere, McCarthyism
2) literal nuclear radiation in your milk from nuclear testing
3) getting impaled on your car steering column because no seatbelts
4) Polio
5) Race war due to separate but equal policies in the former CSA
6) Korean War
7) Cancer from cigarettes
and so on.

Stop glorifying the the fantasy and study the reality. read a fucking history book.

>>14028010
It was certainly a choice, as one could have opted to cooperate and develop higher culture were it not for simple ideological reasons.

>>14028011
I used attempts because it's more encompassing. I can see suicides in the past being covered or hushed up.
What was the time range for those studies?
My point is mental health is studied more than ever possibly leading to the appearance of an increase in mental illness.
Life not being good does not imply purposelesness.

I don't disagree with you about the changing structures of the family. Do you think children are shown more compassion and interest from their parents today or no?

>>14028046
What steps would they have taken? Do you really think humans would ever favor higher culture than continue being the retards they've always been?

>>14028066
>Muh higher culture

You'd have define this but obviously its a genocidal hitler state i suspect

>>14028070
Ask the other anon. I'm in the same boat as you.

>>14028032
>literal nuclear radiation in your milk from nuclear testing
oh yes because if we enforce gender roles again we'll get radiating particles in our milk

>>14028100
>"traditional" gender roles is the only defining aspect of the 50s
Honestly I'm not surprised you believe this

>>14028052
>I used attempts because it's more encompassing. I can see suicides in the past being covered or hushed up.
Let's stick to what we know, though.
>What was the time range for those studies?
50s to 2010+ or so if I recall correctly. You can look them up.
>My point is mental health is studied more than ever possibly leading to the appearance of an increase in mental illness.
I understood your point, but in the case of depression and anxiety the markers remain the same as they were back then, as in, there are no new symptoms discovered that would qualify you now that they didn't have back then.
>Life not being good does not imply purposelesness.
We're veering into too philosophical a tangent here, because it depends on what "good" or "purpose" or whatnot can be seen as. I chose the simple, common denominator of 'suffering' as reflected in mental health, which has been declining.
>Do you think children are shown more compassion and interest from their parents today or no?
I can't speculate on how people raise their children, I can only look at the statistics tracking their overall state. Teenage suicides are an at all-time high this year for instance. So I'd argue that something went wrong. There's also a very strong and clear link between divorce and childhood trauma.
Take that and add to it the easy accessibility of porn, unhealthy foods, video games and social media and you achieve almost perfect atomization. An irresistible, addictive cocktail designed to hook your brain under the guise of 'entertainment', giving birth to the modern hermit. A castaway without realizing it - yet feeling the same mental decline as one.
I'm not saying it's a majority, but the numbers are increasing. If you want a case study on a large population, look at millennials.

>>14028066
>What steps would they have taken?
Mainly it would have had to been Americans cleansing their culture of reactionary elements, embracing some form of technocratic socialism and partnering with the soviets.

And yes, I do think it's possible. This has been the essential trajectory of the PRC, despite looming influence of capitalist culture.

>>14027675
This. It's amazing how people revert back to the consumer stereotypes of three generations ago whenever they they get fed up with the consumer stereotypes of now.

GENDER IS A PSYOP

>>14027876
most "people" a resentful third worlders who are trying their damndest to tug at your heart strings so they can get in proximity to come and rape you to death

>>14028032
>mcarthy was wrong about anything
>nuclear radiation killed everyone even though the boomers will live to be 150 years old
>muh chevy corvair
>was already solved
>we're going to have a global race war and (you) will definitely die first
>even the korean war veterans don't remember the war
>zoomers vape 300mg of nicotine a day and the practice has only existed for about 11 years
you're a fag harry

>>14028116
>Let's stick to what we know, though.
But we can't know unless we interpret the data.
>We're veering into too philosophical a tangent here
This chain was started because someone said we've become lost souls without purpose. I guess I'm not convinced those trends alone can be taken to indicate that.
>>14028120
There's no way the US would have teamed up with the Soviets during during the Cold War. That what I mean.
>>14028143
That's cute coming from a rapist.

>>14028171
>But we can't know unless we interpret the data.
The data is clear on the number of suicides, and by extension on cases of clinical depression which precedes suicide.
You wondered about how many were reported and how many were covered up.
I said let's stick with what we know because if we speculate, we'll get nowhere fast.
>This chain was started because someone said we've become lost souls without purpose.
I understand, and my response to it was that our traditional sources of meaning and joy (community, family, religion) have been eroded to the point of almost collapse, helped by the increasing culture of mindless hedonism. I think that is, in large part to blame for the declining mental health of people, or to put it more poetically, as you have - the source of the lost souls and the lack of purpose.

>>14028171
>n-no U
>every single time
you people are diseased

>>14028171
Our liberated and permissive culture is a perfect fit for an hypermediated society based on consumerism. A therapeuthic regime based on the policing and medication of one's 'mental health' has suceeded the christian regime of subjectivity and its outmoded notions of guilt and sin. While publically, the individual is encouraged to express his or her 'authentic self'. likewise, 'traditional' gender roles are inefficient in a highly automated an information and services economy that demands ever more flexibility. Even bourgeoisie mores become increasingly transactional and contractual. A customer of patient centered approach replaces the notion of citizenship. The ideology of the liberated individual actually requires massive bureaucratic support, like any other mass ideology it has to keep its subjects mobilised through an hegemonic system of propaganda. The technosocial structure is atomising by nature, as it functions as an inverted benthamite panopticon where everyone is at once a guard and a prisioner. 2020s America will be more like 1950s America than either the right or the left would want to admit,the high modernist military industrial consumer structure isn't going away.

>>14028171
the question is are you gonna let ZOG socially engineer the human race into a single pink haired mass of genderless, raceless and culturless polyamorous wheelchair bound blobs, or are you going to join the alt right and fight for your freedom?

>>14027670
You mean fat smelly middle aged guys with togas waddling around the Agora looking for 12 year old boys to pick up?

>>14027670
Why don`t current authors stop depicting current society to better fit my personal taste?
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEee

>>14028432
>implying the greeks didn't look like shaved chimpanzees and wouldn't have thrown you over a barn after fucking your boipucci

>>14027802
>Come home from 10 hour long day at the office
>You only make $3 an hour but at least your wife is at home with the kids
>Wife just spend 6 hours doing the dishes
>TV is in black and white, 3 channels
>Black people move in down the street and realtors convince you to sell your house away at a fraction of its value

>>14028540
>In other words, $3 in 1955 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $28.74 in 2019, a difference of $25.74 over 64 years.

>>14027827
The US and The Soviets were butting heads ever since the end of WWII. The latter meddled in the affairs of the Korean War to an extent just to name one example.

>>14027670
This thread was retroactively refuted by Troomer.

>>14027901
The poison fruit of liberalism... Tricky, because it's so sweet at first.

>>14028495
I’m not judging. Just pointing out tradition.

Who, I cry, who among you wouldn’t weep gleefully for a chance to be cornholled by The Mighty Socrates??

>>14028411
It's amusing how the people who believe we're bound to become an uniformized slime have themselves a very uniform and nuanceless understand of politics, history or society.
It's nothing new but alt-righters and discord tranny deserve each other. They should really get an arena containment board to fight all day long and have make-up facetime sex in the evening.

>>14028540
>you can buy a house at all after less than ten years working as a car mechanic
>the average job available with a highschool degree is a white collar job that allows you to save a year's worth of saalry every 4 years
>you brain is not fried by nonstop mindless media consumption, and if you're in the top 60% of the population in terms of literacy you can easily read and enjoy books
>wife is used to doing the dishes so it takes one hour top actually
The 50s were no utopia but you depiction is pointing at the wrong issues.

>>14029003
>how about this brainlets: EVERYONE is stupid but me
Pick a lane or get run over retard

>>14029025
>Everyone is either alt-right or a discord tranny
Incels ACTUALLY believe this

>>14027725
Female happiness has had a steady decker since the 70's

>>14027675
>>14028126
I'm convinced the 50s aesthetic was propoganda to solidify our (white, able-bodied) national identity after the war. Strength in family type shit. Not a bad philosophy, but entirely rooted in historical context. No "truth" about it

>>14029067
This is the most realistic scenario here

>>14029691
Of course it was propaganda. They had to show muh American way was superior to them damned commies.
It's very similar to British propaganda back in the day to stop people thinking silly thoughts about codified laws and getting rid of the aristocracy

>>14028335
Go back to your undergrad sociology class and hang yourself

>>14027784
They were happy before that negro stole their sausages

>>14029691
It was served as propaganda, but what it displayed was real.

>the virgin greatest generation
>the Chad Stakhanovite

>>14029691
Well there was a significant degree of truth to the fact that America demographically was around 90% white and followed a much more patriarchal and generally orderly/functional family structure.

>>14027670
Alcott "an old-fashioned girl"
Bronte "Jane Eyre"
Burnett "the secret garden"
Than of course books written by female catholic saints and a shitton of german books published before the occupation, just to name "Die Kindlemutter" and the famous series "Pucki" which in 12 books describes the life of a young girl from kindergarden to being a mother and grandmother". That's the perfect literature for a girl to read. Further of course the classics, which also talk about female flaws like the "Niebelungenlied" or "Rolandslied" for boys with a shitton of good male exaples and what not to do. Of course "Little House on the Prairie" and "Anne of Green Gables". If you're on Goybook check out the group "Fountains Of Carrots Raspberry Cordial Social Club" for girls. Dunno any for boys, but you should be finde sticking to classics and pre-'45 books.

Ah, missread your post.
Well I do not know any big names in traditional gender role relevant books, as most publishers either belong into parantheses or a female, and therefore most often against "toxic" input. You could prolly find some selfpublished little known works.

>>14030387
>90% white
So only 1 in 10 Americans were excluded from society and denied any civil rights

>>14027670
There's no such thing as "traditional gender roles". Christians have different ones than Muslims, Scandis have different ones than Meds, Indians have different ones from Chinks etc. When you say traditional you must define where and when.

There are only some basic principles like women taking care of home and children, while man do stuff outside. And even then some cultures put women into total submission even inside household, while others let them do stuff outside households.

>>14027802
the constant threat of a nuclear war sure was fun

>>14027670
Do you ever wish you could delete someone else's thread?

>>14030424
Yup, and it would have been better if it were lower than 1 in 10 Americans "denied civil rights."

As it stands now you have a condition where nobody is allowed to openly advocate for the majority population of the US, so I would consider from a utilitarian perspective that only one in 10 Americans being denied rights was better.

>>14027675
Who said it was?

The family structure was, though. Not only in the U.S., but in my country too. Now it's different (many more single mothers + alternative 'immediate family' configurations). Same for gender roles, of course (despite female voting and some new trends - but then again voting was a relatively new thing for many men too).

>>14030690
In a way, it is better to have barefoot black children being burned alive by the KKK than to have a situation where most respectable news outlets won't openly expose white supremacy

>>14030700
>The family structure was, though.
If by "trad" you mean modern thing pretending to be traditional maybe, but rootless nuclear families as the norm is relatively new phenomenom.

>>14030826
Please, blacks murder more white people every couple of years than the total of blacks ever lynched.

It would've been better if blacks were sent back to Africa and if more whites had realized that non-whites will 'game' our humanitarian tendencies to replace us.

>>14030826
Blacks murder more blacks every 6 months than the total number of blacks that were killed by the KKK over the entire history of lynching in the US. Blacks kill more whites every 5 years than the total number of blacks lynched in the US. Tell me more about how the news media won't call out white supremacy when I literally can't say that my political views are pro-white without being made permanently unemployable because of the threat of media campaigns.

>>14032007
>>14031532
>two wrongs make a right
Must be tough being a poor helpless white American in the face of these bullies. Seriously though it blew my mind when I first found out what white Americans are actually like, how scared they are. You'd think they'd be the most confident people in the world.

>>14032060
lol keep it up gay boy see what happens

>>14032114
>he spends his life terrified of a minority group he outnumbers 10-1, who have no political or economic power, who have an entire criminal justice system designed to imprison them on the slightest pretext, and who are de facto segregated from him in every way

>>14032147
Are you talking about CNN and white people?

>>14027670
The french are pretty redpilled about this stuff but why would you write a novel with characters who arent true to life?

>>14032163
Tell me what novel are you talking about, genuinely curious.

>>14032060
Don't know about the other guy, but I'm not a burger.

It's not that whites are scared, it's that we're incredibly indoctrinated. If most whites actually were scared for our people, we'd be able to do something about it.

>>14032147
Non-whites in white nations have the full backing of the establishment, but that isn't power? There are multitudes of laws enforcing 'diversity' and criminalizng even factual criticism of non-whites and the anti-white agenda. Blacks are disproportionately criminal and lower in SES -despite- whites bending over backwards to help them.

Blacks were just the foot in the door; mestizos are flooding in and the majority of immigration is non-white (as is the case in most white nations).

>>14032244
Literally any French novel. They're pretty 'sexist' over there.

>>14028463
have sex

>>14032280
Have you considered that it might be you who's incredibly indoctrinated?

>>14032381
>nou
>every single time
lmao

>>14032385
So you haven't even considered the possibility?

>>14027670
That Leave it to Beaver faggot on the right sucks! What a shitty father; he does nothing but read the paper. His kid will become a fuckup, guaranteed.

>>14032395
>refuses to talk to anon about anything
>nou
>but nou though
have self respect

>>14028140
Based and genderpilled

>>14032060
White Americans are forced into a position where we have to forfeit every since major metropolitan area to be dens of crime at the hands of blacks and browns, and if they do anything but run they will be attacked both physically and financially by the system. Yes, it's not fun being a White American where you are explicitly discriminated against while also being told that you're in control of everything and responsible for all the ills in the world.

>>14032697
>>14032060

Every single metropolitan area*

>>14032381
Yes, I'm indoctrinated, which is why I have these massive cognitive dissonances I have to deal with surrounding why there isn't a single explicitly pro-white political figure with any power in all of these supposedly white supremacist controlled country, all the while white people are able to be fired (and rendered permanently unemployable) and deplatformed from access to major modern logistical functions like visa and PayPal over Twitter posts that people don't like. Yeah totally I'm the one with the problem here.

It's me who is indoctrinated when people are allowed to hold major positions of power in political and media organizations while openly saying how great it will be when whites are minorities I'm majority white countries, when I can't even point out as a white man portions of plain reality like accurate racial crime data without getting fired.

>>14027802

>>14027802
seethe more grandpa

Gender has never been the same during two points in history