/lit/ - Literature

The guy that made the slaves and the poor feel virtuous and over thrown the greatest empire on earth. Yeah fuck that guy.

>>13918859
>greatest empire on earth.

Christianity was a crisis cult, the roman empire was rotting from the inside out when jesus begun to speak. you should read this book

>>13918859
>the greatest empire ON EARTH.
there's your problem

>>13918848
I swear this is one poster. He spent the first hour making atheist threads, get bombarded by great quote from the Bible and then changes his position and start a thread about Jesus being so cool.

>>13918869
>life after death
pedantic drivel. not one scrap of evidence for it.

but it is thought nothing of by christians since the christian system consists of one unsubstantiated belief after another.

>>13918886
>life after death
>pedantic drivel. not one scrap of evidence for it.

Do you think that is what I am talking about here? You are chasing a cartoon, friend - "heaven," "hell," the idea of "God" as a person, an intelligence, or an entity - these and more are abstractions made in an attempt to explain a simple yet elusive truth to those who have not seen it. There is no man in the clouds, heaven is not a physical place, there may be no afterlife - but they were never claimed to be, except by fools, and the confused. You can spend your life rebelling against the "man in the clouds" that idiots talk about - you will be correct to do so, but you will not be addressing God. God is love - that is all you need to know. The universe's laws allow for life to spring forth from dead matter, for it to be aware, and for it to love - whatever drives that phenomenon is God. To act in accordance with love, is to bring the world closer toward "heaven." Whether there is a spiritual world filled with literal angels, devils, and other supernatural beings is irrelevant to this, and obviously untrue.

>>13918867
Won't deny the fact that the west part of the roman empire was rotting but that charlattan grabbed the chance to turn the table around, probably for his own interest and not out of "love". What he did was a simply act of changing the main values of the roman empire with their exact opposite.
Strength was now the same with violence, he changed the word's meaning and so being weak was the only way be on the right side.
Wealth was turnt into a symbol of corruption, being poor was again the right path, so now the wealthy had to share their wealth to seek his atonement.
Knowledge, science or in other words the philosohpy of that time, to counter that he preached "μαkάριοι οι πτωχοί τω πνεύματι" that would roughly translate as ignorance is bliss.
He even preached against art and actuall love through his fasting, staying a virgin till you get married, austerity.

>>13918869
Historically speaking it was the greatest empire that ever existed and the one responsible for west's growth in all aspects of civilisation. Your problem on the other hand is the lack of knowledge on history.

I will never believe in God, neither heaven nor hell, because then i would also have to place my faith in a specie that slowly seizes to exist out of its own shitty nature, humans.

>>13918948
>Historically speaking it was the greatest empire that ever existed and the one responsible for west's growth in all aspects of civilisation. Your problem on the other hand is the lack of knowledge on history.
You misunderstood me - I was being cheeky.
John 18:36

>>13918983
Oh god, how did i miss that?
Probably john again

>>13918978
>I will never believe in God
If you saw what others have seen, you would believe in an instant, and realize that you have known it your whole life. You would realize "Ah, that's what they all meant. It wasn't a man in the clouds. Why didn't they just say so?" They didn't say so because they didn't know how to say so. God is not what you think it is - all concepts of it that you have been told by other people were abstracted and corrupted from a simple truth. If you saw it, you would "believe in" it the same way you would "believe in" a table sitting in front of you.

>>13918867
you realise the roman empire continued existing for a bit less than 600 years after his crucifixion. Right anon, you do, don't you?

>>13919010
Whose words are you quoting now?
>You would realize "Ah, that's what they all meant. It wasn't a man in the clouds. Why didn't they just say so?"
These words are familliar to me but sauce please.
I won't do psychedelics to find my faith though like a fucking hippie.

>>13919016
some corpses take more time to rot then others, look at the USA for example. still in existence but all but dead.

>>13919034
USA isn't the corpse. USA is more of a graveyard in the way you try to express it, the corpses are the ones placed on its land but they will all soon rot.
USA was the first country to overcome its utopian state. USA is our leading force into post modernism. Hail USA now you infidel.

>>13919031
I may be quoting someone accidentally, but I was simply explaining my own realization. There have probably been many people who said similar things, as this is an experience available to everyone.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you to do psychedelics. Do them if you wish, but don't base that decision on what another person told you. Psychedelics are not necessary, and not a guarantee. Most people who use them will confuse themselves, find nothing, or worse yet, lose something.

>>13919065
i think it was in a movie, either the 7th seal or evangelion's first movie of 97, the end of evangelion.
To sort this out, have you seen it? Is there a way to put it in a not so abstract way? Or at least confirm to me that if there is a god (in the way you understand it) it has nothing to do with christianity.

>>13919060
the USA is today is exactly at the same point where the late Qing dynasty was before it collapsed

>Corrupt elites ruled from a distance. Industry fragmented in slow motion, plundered by the rich and slowly pieced apart by foreign competition. For common people, the possibility of any sort of stable life slowly faded. The future itself seemed to recede into an impenetrable darkness, thick with the sound of some as-yet-unseen chaos slouching toward the present. The gap between the dim light of everyday life and that rapidly approaching night was filled with bone-deep madness. Tradition rotted from the inside out. Opiates muted the misery of ever-expanding unemployment and unrest bloomed in its thousand forms. Religious sects arose across the heartland. On the coasts, overburdened, underfunded cities sprawled outward even as their cores were flooded with unprecedented wealth. Slums spiraled in a fractal pattern around glittering ports. Foreign powers pressed inward from a distance, the military overextended and inefficient. Weaker armies fought asymmetrical wars against the empire at its edges. Corrupt officials were assassinated in broad daylight. Militias grew in the rural areas, filled with young, futureless men hoping to push out the foreigners and make a great nation strong once again.

>In a way, this story describes every era of imperial decline, or maybe just the general environment of pervasive social collapse. In its specifics, it of course bears a remarkable resemblance to the current conditions of the United States—or maybe, at least, the conditions widely assumed to be impending. There is a truth to this resemblance, certainly. But the picture above is not an illustration of Trump’s America. It is instead a snapshot of the late Qing dynasty in the century following the Opium Wars, when the world’s strongest empire found itself roundly unseated from the helm of global power. Defeat at the hands of “inferior” foreigners, paired with rampant opiate addiction, political corruption and generations of growing economic inequality combined to define the era as one of “national humiliation.”

all dead but in appearance

http://www.ultra-com.org/project/class-combat/

>>13919034
USA is not an empire or a kingdom like any empire before. It has almost no culture, direction, or identity.
Its culture, if it has one, is optimization. That's it. Optimization to no end but the satisfaction of the optimizer. That is not an empire, it is an ideology - and a very powerful one. The whole world is living in America. If you want a complete picture of the true American mindset, play Factorio. All of our companies, our military, our government, down to most individuals, are playing Factorio in real life. You could nuke America now and rename it New China, but the optimization bug is out - and America will not go away until we figure out what to do with it.

>>13919096
ll empires or even states seek "Optimization". there is nothing particularly "American" about it.

The dream of the formation of a world empire is not only found in ancient history: it is the logical outcome of all the activities of power, and it is not limited to any specific period. Though it has gone through many variations, the vision of global domination connects with the rise of new social conditions and has never disappeared from the political horizon...”

— Rudolf Rocker

“The servitude to which the subjects of Rome were subjugated was not slow to extend itself to the Romans themselves [...]. There was no way to avoid the servitude, and those who were called citizens were ready to get on their knees even before they had a master. [...] In Rome, it was not before the emperor as a man, but before the Empire that everyone submitted; and the strength of the Empire consisted in the mechanism of a very centralized, perfectly organized administration, in a large, mostly disciplined permanent army, in a system of control that extended everywhere. In other words, the State, not the sovereign, was the source of power.”

— Simone Weil

“A single law, the law imposed by Rome, reigned over the Empire. This Empire was not in any way a society of citizens, but only a herd of subjects. Up to now, the lawmaker and the authoritarian admire the unity of this empire, the unitary spirit of its laws, the beauty — in their opinion — and the harmony of this organization.”

— Peter Kropotkin

>>13919096
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/crisso-and-odoteo-barbarians-the-disordered-insurgence

>>13919089
I think you do two mistakes here. First is the word collapse, all great empires collapsed under their own weight. In 21st century you have 2 and some could say 3 "empires".
Second mistake is taking history into consideration, even though in the past it proved its usefulness, doing it here in this case won't delivery any results. What brought down Qing dynasty can't happen nowdays in any way. If the lazy zoomers and boomers are called to fight for their rights they will most likely chose to move abroad and away of all that fuss. Complexity is not something people can handle, you have to spoon feed them with c hart pies and information requires to be as simple as possible so that even a toddler would get it.
Just accept what is coming and embrace it.

>>13919123
people dont fight with abstract pies and charts in mind, they fight "embedded" in a concrete reality, like the yellow vests for example, or like them kids dressed in all black are doing in Hong Kong as we speak. you are talking about Management, im talking about the coming Insurrection

>>13919145
There is no concrete reality in postmodern societies, yellow vests and black kids are only real to you through your channel 5, CNN or whatever you are following. You are not in touch with that reality. Don't you see the resemblance of these two situations with our famous "Video game war" at Gulf?
I can write 10 articles for each case and cover it perfectly just by using google. These movements have no effect towards weakening what we most often call "the system".

>>13919088
I don't know if there is a way to put it in a non-abstract way. So many have tried. I'll try here.
I saw a glimpse of it, in a very strange state of mind that I have never been able to replicate. I could see, or was compelled to see, how completely absurd it is to exist. It was hilarious and overwhelming. I was "shown", or was compelled to see/examine everything wrong I had ever done, and everything wrong anyone had done to me, and I saw the fear and ignorance and suffering behind every sin, and how helpless people are in resisting it. That every crime is as much a burden to the perpetrator as its victim, for now they must live with the fact of having done wrong. Every cruelty is a mistake - even if it is intentional, even if it is deliberate, it is done out of ignorance, and fear, and a loss of love. After seeing that, I knew I could forgive everyone, and myself, and I saw that all I ever needed to do, in all my confusion and my faults, was just to be kind. To never be anything but kind. I was suddenly aware of the presence of some strange force - a living, breathing intention, that seemed to say that what I had just seen was the entire point of our existence. That the fact of dead matter being ignited into life, becoming aware, and being able to love, is a GOAL that is "cooked into" the universe. It is a living promise, that as long as you are kind, as long as you can love, the world will get closer to where it is trying to go. This love was the "God" people had been trying to tell me about, a love that can achieve "heaven." What that means, I do not know, and I do not think anyone knew, but I felt sympathy for mystics who had seen this same thing, and then had to explain it to peasants. How can you possible describe it? It doesn't make sense. But the peasants are curious, and want to know, and you want THEM to know, so you make up a story, filled with characters, that approximates the truth. Over time this story gets corrupted and becomes a bulky religion filled with lost people, chasing cartoons of a man in the clouds who commands you to do this and that and stop masturbating. But the core ideas - that love conquers all, that God is love, that love is a real phenomenon, allowed for by the laws of the universe, that is the GOAL of all existence... that is what I saw. I have no way of proving that it is true, that it wasn't a trick, that it wasn't just my own mind talking to myself, or whatever - all I can say is that I cannot help but believe it, because it was more compelling and more beautiful than anything I had ever experienced. It was MORE real than anything that was real. I was, honest to god, a harris/dawkins atheist before I saw this.

>>13919145
Insurrections don't work anymore, there are so many fronts, institutions etc that people don't know where to focus. This is not an Insurrection but kids playing and messing around.

>>13919175
of course it has reality, the yellow vests REALLY do exist, today a cop REALLY did shoot a kid in HK, i live in Israel, this REALLY happened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826OcbRzyK4

maybe it isn't real for you yet but it will be, i guarantee you that, perhaps you're just a spectator, a citizen rather then a "barbarian" but you will have to choose sides soon.

this whole "post modern" thing is just an attempt to announce the "the death of man" to diffuse the danger that arises the death of God. to make man into into a mere lump of social, political, technological and linguistic devices. “desiring machines” as Deleuze and Guattari formulated it.

well, sorry, man is still here, he still can say no. and this is a great danger, my friend, its a big big danger to "the system"

>>13919193
Well i expected this description, don't know why but as i was reading your post i only agreed, didn't even know i was capable to show that much of empathy. Still i have no idea why, all of that again does sound familliar but i can't recall the source in my head. Even tho i say i don't believe in a god, my main goal is to be as humane as possible.

>>13919196
"kids playing and messing around" is by far the most SAVAGE insurrection -

>The cry of the barbarians is much too infantile for them, their boldness much too gratuitous. In the face of the barbarians, they feel as powerless as an adult at grips with roused children. In fact, for the ancient Greeks the barbarian was quite similar to the child, while in Russian the two concepts are expressed with the same word (and let’s consider the Latin infans, infant, that literally means not speaking). Well then, the thing that those who don’t speak, the stammerers, are most reproached for is the lack of seriousness, of reasonableness, of maturity. For barbarians, as for children, whose nature has not yet been completely domesticated, freedom does not start with the elaboration of an ideal program but with the unmistakable din of broken crockery. This is the thing that raises the protests of those who think, with Lenin, that extremism is only an “infantile disorder”. Against the senile disorder of politics, the barbarians affirm that freedom is the most urgent and terrifying need of human nature. And unbridled freedom makes use of all the world’s products, of all the objects, using them as playthings.

--Barbarians by Crisso and Odoteo

and its precisely becouse the richness of targets that qualifies those current rebellions as truly chaotic, hence barbaric

>>13918929
Now this is drivel.

>>13919227
You live in Israel now that explains to me our misunderstanding here and i respect that. But the man is dead in the west. Whether it sounds nice or not the west has entered its postmodern era and the rest will eventually follow. Chosing sides is a thing ever since humanity appeared on earth, it won't go away and even if it comes my time to chose a side, it won't matter.

>>13919175
also, i would like to say that this whole "its not real, we leave in post modernity, all we can do is be ironic about things, affirming thing is so modern, we should be nothing but hipsters. etc.." is a way of warding off anxiety, the anxiety that come to a person in the midst of crises - "i dont need to choose a side"

like conspiracy theories its a kind of bad faith ("all those events are not real, those people have no agency, they are just being manipulated from above, nothing to see here, history is dead and that's it")

the implication of the speaker here is this - "i have no agency, im not free, im being manipulated everyday becouse i exist in a capitalist society, hence THEY lack agency, they are not free" - the speaker of those lines hated the idea that other people have something that he lacks, that freedom REALLY CAN EXIST.

this can drive a person mad with resentment. just imagine, "there is something in the world except this servitude and im missing out!"

>>13919228
One of the most profound realizations of this, if you do see it, is that it was something you had always known, but never called forth, or never realized how powerful and important it was, or thought it was just an "emotion" that only applies to you and whoever you're having sex with.

The experience calls it forth and shows that it is everywhere, in everything, and that the whole of existence is screaming for it.

The difference is that while outside of these sorts of experiences you may be able to understand it intellectually, the experience blows you wide open and hits you in the teeth with it like a sledgehammer, and once that happens to you you can never go back. You lose a part of yourself that was reasonable, that didn't believe in these things because you couldn't "prove" them or see them under a microscope.

The other important thing is that it gives you no answers. You don't know what this love IS, you don't know why or how it could possibly be, but you are forced to accept it as a mystery - again, a concept lots of religions talk about. It puts all religious and moral teaching in a whole new light, though. It also, I've found, has provided me with a good filter for determining whether an idea is worthwhile - if there's no love in it, it's wrong.

>>13919254
If you see it, you will understand exactly what I mean, and what everyone was trying to tell you. Keep chasing the cartoons. They will lead you nowhere.

>>13919175
history is not dead, affirming things is primitive, but we the barbarians are primitive!

>Simply being physically present at or near the scene of an illegal assembly already constitutes grounds for arrest and detention. When you are sitting on the subway train or the bus home, you never know whether riot squads will storm the vehicle and proceed to beat the life out of everyone on board, whether vigilantes have tipped you off to the cops or are following you home, whether the triads will be out in force where you live late at night. Partisanship renders you into a body that can be maimed, tortured and—it appears—killed by those whose acts are authorized in the name of “order.” As the guardians of order make clear, we are “cockroaches,” pests to be exterminated and disposed of so that business can proceed as usual.

>In addition, professing sympathy for the struggle could very well leave you unemployed if you work for a company that has longstanding ties with the Chinese market. Consider the high-profile case of Cathay Pacific, the upper management of which demanded a list of members of a union that had participated in the movement or helped to leak flight information of the police; this company is carrying out a thoroughgoing purge of partisans among their staff, directed by careerist snitches among the crew.

>Teachers at school who tutored you in algebra just a few months ago could aid in your arrest; principals and heads of departments stand idly by as riot squads seize you and your friends outside your school building. This is the reality that protesters are becoming rapidly habituated to. As a consequence, networks of mutual assistance have rapidly formed to address the situation, offering employment, shelter, transport, and meals to those in need.

>In short: the future, as a horizon of foreseeable advancement, an itinerary of fulfillable and forestalled plans and projections, has collapsed, and we are left consulting, moment by moment, the live maps drawn in real time by volunteer cartographers, telling us which stations to avoid, which roads to take a detour around, which neighborhoods are presently being gassed. Daily life itself becomes a series of tactical maneuvers, everyone having to exercise caution about what they say at lunch in cafés and canteens lest they are overheard and reported, experimenting with different ways to ride the subways for free without being too obvious about it, inventing codes to use on instant messaging or social media that evade quick decryption. It is quite extraordinary that so many are willing to forego the craven comforts and conveniences of the metropolis, the enjoyment of anonymity as they go about their business. It is necessary to find and maintain clandestinity in other ways.

>It is impossible to deny that through it all, a sense of invention and adventure saturates the minutiae of our waking lives.

>>13919361
https://fr.crimethinc.com/2019/09/20/three-months-of-insurrection-an-anarchist-collective-in-hong-kong-appraises-the-achievements-and-limits-of-the-revolt

>>13919193
I don't know anything, but I'm glad that you have found your way and that your way is kindness.

>>13919300
You might be right but then again i am not willing to further this discussion about freedom. I think freedom is an abstract idea in our minds, nobody really know what true freedom feels like or if it even exists. We can safely say that we have never experienced and so many great things came out of it. Art is a result of our limited freedom, it is the fruit of that struggle to attain the unattainable. That being said i don't think that any rebel across the globe can claim his freedom, after all they go back to their house and they are welcomed with a table full of bills and taxes. They will have to make time in between their parades to go pay them. I am sorry friend but i am way past my bedtime, would be fun to keep this going.

>>13918978
/lit/ is a Christian board.
>>>/reddit/

>>13919405
>after all they go back to their house and they are welcomed with a table full of bills and taxes

the secret is to cost the bosses more money then you made them.

>>13919193
Have you read Tolstoy's theological works? What I Believe and The Kingdom of God is Within You in particular. I had forgotten about them until today.

>>13918848
The anti-capitalist commie yeah I love that guy

>>13919647
I am familiar with them, but haven't read yet. What I've seen from The Kingdom aligns with my thinking

>>13919647
>>13919758
Tolstoy's entire theology can basically be summed up with 'love even the people who are your enemies/you think are evil'. He said that was the single concept that made him understand Christianity.

>>13918948
>Historically speaking it was the greatest empire that ever existed
Not so fast white boy

>>13919088
Definitely 7th seal. Evangelion is based, it’s Gnostic and either Buddhist or Shintoist in worldview but comes around to Christian existentialism with Jungian aspects as being the correct way to live. To my knowledge Bergman is pretty much straight up Christian existentialism

>>13918867
Interesting, feel the same way. Will have to give it a look.

>cheap apocalyptic ripoff of Judaism and Zoroastrianism
>the most profound theological system ever

Pick one. Just like Islam after it, and Judaism before it, Christianity is little more than a compilation of ideas that were taken from somewhere else, reimagined into another context. If I were to pick a more influential figure, I'd pick either Zoroaster or rabbi Hillel, the two figures Christianity is almost entirely based on. In fact, nothing in Abrahamic religion comes even close to the influence Zoroaster had on thinking in general. Without him, there simply would have been no Judaism, Christianity or Islam, whereas Judaism has survived perfectly well without Christianity. That's probably why Christians hate Judaism: Christianity needs Judaism, but Judaism doesn't need Christianity. This is a massive imbalance of power, one that has to be resolved by Christianity declaring itself as the true Abrahamic religion.

Anyway, Zoroaster was much more influential than Jesus ever could be. 4/10, nice try

>>13919193
great post, thanks for sharing

>>13919301
It sounds like you achieved Knowledge and Conversation of your Holy Guardian Angel.

>>13919016
1400 years mate.

>>13918859
>greatest empire on earth
huh? name one intellectual advance or discovery the romans made.

>>13919193
We’ve had a similar experience. After a dark time of heavily studying religion, philosophy (specifically identity), Christian artwork, fasting, and doing stuff like Buddhist and hermetic meditations and breathing exercises, I experienced the same thing as you where something external from me forced me to reevaluate my actions and revealed to me how my actions harm other people. I didn’t see ignorance, but rather the desire to escape from genuine connection with other people. This part of it felt like an evaluation of all people.

If you think it can help you, I’d like to share my current beliefs with you. It’s largely intuitive and I believe is self-evident to all people, but it feels like I was guided into it through a lot of reflection. I believe we all know truth already, it’s just a matter of being willing to listen to it and act on it

>>13922073
>NO YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE BASELESS CLAIMS WITHOUT CORRELATING THEM WITH AN ENTIRE MUSEUM OF FACTS
>NON-ENLIGHTENMENT SOCIETIES STILL HAVE TO BE VALUED BASED UPON ENLIGHTENMENT JUDGEMENTS

>>13919193

>>13919193
Love is not always kind. Kindness is nothing more than a description of relational intimacy. Sometimes, however, to love someone is to create distance between them and you. Sometimes, to love someone you must be formal with them. Love is the sacrifice of the self for the good of the other. The radical kindness you speak of is not love, but selfishness. You speak it as thought it is all sunshine and hapiness, but most of all it is your way of saying that you need not change--that you need not bow. The purpose of life is not kindness--not intimacy. The purpose of life is to love and be loved by God.

>>13922335
if you wanr to know what love is watch this film. love is savage. love destroys the system. it destroys everything in its path

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GPq7bqs4EA

>>13922365
If you want to know what love is, pray the rosary and contemplate the love Mary had for Jesus, her sorrow and her joy.

>>13922373
stop with the nonsense.

>>13922380
Once you have considered the bottomless ocean of love Mary had for Jesus, then consider the love God, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, had for Mary, that he would entrust himself to her care in perfect obedience for 30 years. Truly, it is an insult to love to call it merely kindness.

>>13919228
maybe the ending of archer?

>>13918859
>le Gibbon maymay
Atheists are fucking retarded

>>13919096
Thats fucking stupid since Twain is clearly American while Zizek is not

>>13918848
Why is this thread still up?

>>13918929
well said

>>13918848
Imagine actually being so inculcated by this bullshit you actually think this

>>13922335
Again, the language corrupts and abstracts the idea - maybe "kindness" was not the right way for me to put it. Correct in one way, incorrect in many others. I think you are correct in that sometimes love is not "kind."

>>13922918
No, I am disagreeing with your idea. Your caricature of religion is beyond false. You are not revering God, but yourself. You complain about the corrupting nature of language, and yet your entire position relies on the ambiguity of your terminology. If you spoke clearly, all would see your gratuitous love of self.

>>13919193
Do you really need all that to justify being kind? You are a nihilist in disguise

>>13922917
this >>13919193

>>13922993
If you think there is a way to describe these sorts of experiences without ambiguity, then you are confused. Still, I want to know why you think this - explain yourself. If I "spoke clearly," what do you think I would say? What do you think it means to revere God, and how is it different from what I described? You are being ambiguous yourself, here.

>>13923007
the path to heaven goes through hell

>>13923016
>You can make something sound sophisticated by applying Platonic cosmology and esoteric meanings to it

Somehow I'm less than surprised

>>13922993
>You complain about the corrupting nature of language, and yet your entire position relies on the ambiguity of your terminology.
and I even admit from the beginning: "I don't know if there is a way to put it in a non-abstract way." Clearly I can't. Can you put YOUR faith in a non-abstract, non-ambiguous way? "To love and be loved by God" may be the exact same thing I am trying to say. And how did you reach these conclusions? How is my "caricature" of religion (as a caricature) "beyond false?"

>>13922098
By all means, share

>>13923029
Your "revelation" is clearly drawing on Christian ideology, without directly invoking any Christian terms, in order to deconstruct the Christian idea of God and the Christian faith. And in all of this, you place yourself at the center of The Truth, but of course pass yourself off as only an ignorant messenger. "Who knows if it's true; I believe it because it is beautiful." You are, over the course of several sentences, claiming that you shared part of a universal spiritual experience which is the experience of all mystics and all people who have any claim to truth. The content of what you're saying is unbearably grandiose, and no amount of false humility can hide it. You equate love with kindness, and offer hardly any definition of kindness beyond a loose sense of "live and let live."

>>13923034
Ah, the ever-rationalizing /lit/ atheist. Clearly there are no mystical experiences and nothing to them, it's all just chemicals bouncing around. Any descriptions of this sort of thing is a trick done by someone "applying platonic cosmology and esoteric meanings" dishonestly or ignorantly! They are not like me, the iron-fisted Rationalist. I will apply my lazy Verdicts and go about my day.

>>13923034

>>13923119
I'm not even an atheist, much less a materialist and I'm well acquainted with the world's religious and mystical traditions. But on the other hand Christianity makes a point of being one of the least mystical belief systems ever conceived of. The doctrine is turn your brain off, don't be a proud inquirer, just accept everything in all simplicity. The only less mystical tradition is Islam.

>>13923110
You might be right - I may have faults in my personality that twisted what I saw without my knowing. I probably sat too long with my own interpretation of it. Is there any literature you can recommend me that might be useful?

>>13923077
Except I defined love as self-sacrifice for the good of the other. So to love God is to self-immolate oneself in God, to abandon even the concept of self in the obedience to the will of God. Likewise, in doing this, we receive the total self-sacrifice of God who perfectly wills what is best for us. How do I know this? Because it has been passed down and carefully guarded and has remained unchanging. Rather than expecting the truth to independently blossom in everyone's mind, we expect the Truth, as an absolute universal, to be the anchor of universalized behavior. It is only fitting that the Truth, if found, would spur a vibrant, and living, and continuous tradition. Your caricature is beyond false because it does not even rise to falsehood; it is so empty and cliche that it does not present a single image that appears like anything in the world. It is the kind of description that rises up from the bored musings of a dorm room carpet with the doors closed, the windows drawn, and ears enveloped by headphones.

>>13923132
>I'm well acquainted with the world's religious and mystical traditions
>The doctrine is turn your brain off
You don't sound fimilar with Christianity at all.

>>13923150
In all sincerity and charity, despite my harshness, I strongly recommend The Confessions of Augustine. If you would rather approach from a distance, you might begin with G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy. A word of warning--take the idea of Spirits seriously. If you go with The Confessions, pay particular attention to Augustine's demonstration that God does not have a body. Most of all, find someone you can talk to, ideally a good priest, because no one can successfully think through these subjects alone.

>>13923181
Do you want several passages suggesting this very idea?

2 Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Romans 9:19 - 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Several places: "Do not lean on your own understanding"

>>13923217
>Independent thought is the only kind of thought
>I would rather suffer than submit

>>13923217
I'm very doubtful you did any serious study, Christianity isn't a religion of the book.

>>13923245
Alternatively, hilariously through independent study of the Bible he came to a conclusion of what can only be described as "ultrafundamentalism".

>>13923231
>>Independent thought is the only kind of thought
>>I would rather suffer than submit

>Is there any greater hubris than Christianity? Besides thinking that a god would give a fuck about you lowly mortals, you get up and spend about three hours getting ready to spend the day entirely within His gaze. Curling your fine locks; slowly inching on exquisite leggings; plucking away at the unsightly; adorning an intricately sewn and soft pair of felt shoes so that the earth remains undisturbed by your fleeing feet; closing yourself within layer upon layer of corsets and featherings to keep all forces and elements at bay while attracting the fancy of the piercing eyes of the world; spritzing your skin and hair with the eternal glaze of a prism; a second layer of leggings and tights to show off your gleamingly placid contours in relaxed poses; a wide-brimmed hat with the sweeping peacock lines of the ethereal; and finally a veiled nightshirt to keep any remaining inclement weather from betraying your fair skin, and especially adding the gravity of the world to those bouncing curls.

>Yes. Yes. You are so fine and beholden to the heavens, an earthen vessel which G-d would love to take in his kind hands, kissing you gently. He will slowly remove all those layers of linen and silk, revealing the blossoming curves of you, the Virtuous Man. A spider woven into His web. And once naked in the light beyond this cursed earth He will ravage your gentle body without making you feel like a whore.

>He will even watch as you spend another three hours piecing together your assemblage of the finest knitwear, just waiting for that gentle jiggling of the buttocks as you tighten your corset. As you gracefully walk back into the earthly delights He will drape your curtain over your pallid shoulders; for You are the Veil of Maya and Logos.

>>13923288
>The guy who wrote Faust is antichrist

figures

>>13922421
love is definitely not a competition so cease your oneupmanship

>>13923245
>Christianity isn't a religion of the book

There really is no greater standard a religion can be held to, in the realm of rhetoric than what its fundamental text says

>>13923307
So Sikhs have it right then? Abolish all gurus, the final guru is the book.

>>13923307
How so?

>>13923311
Because otherwise we'd have to admit everyone's personal "revelation" which is usually just their feelings on various matters.

>>13923306
Love is not a competition, but it is a struggle. It will set one part of you against another. I wasn't asking you to consider me, but to consider Mary.

>>13923307
Those statements aren't in contention.

>>13923316
You wouldn't, a revelation can't go against the word of God, otherwise it wouldn't be a revelation.

>>13923316
History shows us the opposite. When a book is held as the Truth itself, each interpretation of it competes without end. If it is held as only a component of the Truth, then an orthodoxy can be maintained. To prevent private "revelation", one must have a text and a tradition of interpretation.

>>13923276
Thank you for confirming. You would value error over Truth if only the error were free and self-made.

>>13923329
Yeah, "revelation" is in quotes for a reason. My grandma thinks the Holy Spirit tells her to not watch shows she coincidentally already finds distasteful. She'll watch any number of those shitty murder mystery cold-case things with all the blood and gore but South Park is off the table. Its just her personal feelings.

>>13923316
So it's good because it says it's good and if we didn't accept this saying that it's good people might have opposing revelations.
Sounds pretty fucking circular and cucked.

>>13923353
No, I implied that your implications were only implications, Stupid.

>>13923132
>But on the other hand Christianity makes a point of being one of the least mystical belief systems ever conceived of
What? every Western mystical and occult tradition "borrows" very heavily from Christian mysticism, even those pertaining to be anti-Christian.

>>13923033
>I gotta know the taste of shit to enjoy candys

>>13923359
That's not what anon said, though. You simply created a circular argument to put in front of what Anon said.

>>13919193
I don't care how many will (you) me for this but please read The Brothers Karamazov, especially the Homilies of the Elder Zosima chapter, and then the Gospels, I was made to feel the way you just described through them. You've said it very well. I felt Jesus as that which you are speaking of, taking the shape of a man.
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
>All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
>In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
>And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Regarding this Light, it is written:
>He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

I know how you feel because I was the same as you. I found that Jesus Christ was the framework for what you have just described. Give it a chance anon, if only for my sake.

>>13923361
Implying? You've grown very quiet about the actual subject at hand.

>>13923382
I'm not going to deign to argue with poorly drawn strawmen.

>>13923377
>if only for my sake
God already reduced himself to Manhood. Why do you reduce him further to a framework?

This is a strong thread, boys. Nice work

>>13923357
Fortunately Christians have developed a system of tools to adequately determine what is and isn't moral to watch, private revelation probably isn't one of them.

>>13923033
Unless of course, one is fortunate enough to be on set upon no such path in the first place

>>13923387
How is your position not what I described?

>>13923394
>system of tools

Yeah, that's definitely how I would refer to Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, et al

>>13918848
There is no just "life after death". Christ's sacrifice is victory of life over death. It is difficult to truly understand what this means metaphysically. The scope of it is unimaginable. A man without blemish was so full of love for us that he under "our" system suffered a painful death of a criminal. Here in this polarity of the Earthly system and Godly love something had to give. It was the total paradox, the biggest contrast, the clashing of two completely opposite spheres in one single point in history. Two polarities met in one single point and have torn history apart in a way that nothing that has happened from that point forward could possibly be the same. We are still living in time that is torn apart until the time is ripe for harvest.

Again, when you begin to understand the scope of this, you will weep. Open a page of the Bible and try to understand what it means. The lines of Bible are historically, metaphysically, figuratively and literally interwoven together in a way that no other book to this point has managed to even come close to. It has the most profound, meaningful images possible and one cannot shake the feeling the reason they are so powerful is precisely because they are the Truth. Jesus' mock title of King of the Jews at his crucifixion packs so much metaphysical depth relative to the scene that it can only be true. iI is not just some thing that is ironic, the scene itself tells everything God thinks about kingship than any 1000 page manifesto could ever hope to. You do not need to debate Earthly definitions of rulership with a back and forth and an agressive conflict, God has shown in Christ everything that needs to be said and the real beauty of Bible lies in discovering these truths that are present in Christ's life, again in depth that a lived life can offer and that scientific or philosophical discourses can never truly approach.

>>13923388
Logos is not exactly a framework, and neither word can be used to describe the exact Living God. Man is also an uncertain thing. In cases like this, we are compelled to use language that doesn't describe the thing, but gives the closest possible resemblance to the thing. Jesus is a man and Christ is a "framework," so to speak, for the salvation of man. No need to get riled up over terminologies, the rough idea is still being relayed to you I'm sure.

>>13923405
>calls Augustine, Aquinas, and Anselm tools
>Can't space a post
Friend, relax. Attacking Christianity lost its edge about 2000 years ago.

>>13923397
Because I'm working with different information. I do not by necessity at least regard my thought to be freely willed (though I do but that's irrelevant. I also do not, by necessity disregard thought that isn't "free". I also don't find capitulating to a specific religion to be hazardous to my ultimate well-being, much less my exercising of free thought (in fact I would regard that as something conducive to well-being). Once again the internet Christian proves he has no theory of mind.

There is no god.
You are all delusional.
the bible is not literature any more than is "The Turner Diaries" or "5 ways to lower life insurance." It is a propaganda tool for exploiters.

Spam some other board, retards...

>>13923420
These days only christians muslims and satanists believe things to be edgy.

>>13923420
There is literally nothing wrong with double-spacing between greentext and normaltext. Actually, people who go out of their way not to cower in fear of the redditspacing boogie man. And of all places, the fucking literature board should understand how a paragraph works.

>>13923425
The concept you need to believe in God to believe in the Bible was out of date 300~ years ago.

>>13923410
It is interesting to me that you would speak this way about the Bible, trying to draw upon its deep spiritual wisdom, only to make a passing blow at a political system that has had no influence for almost a century now. Perhaps it comes from the mistake that the "Earthly system" and Godly love are poles, which must first make the mistake of assigning God a position other than center and extremity. You seem ready to acknowledge the divinity of Christ when it is awe-inspiring, but less so when it is humbling. You wish to be inspired, but you are not willing first to expire.

>>13923119
>the ever-rationalizing
But christian are the ones rationalizing experiences they don't comprehend through religious cosmogony, just look at this thread, subjetive experiences upon experiences rapidly understood by a christian framework, had been born in a buddhist community they would boast about being enlightened

>complains about spamming
>doesn't reply to anyone in particular

>>13923436
Of all places, the literature board should appreciate the importance of style in writing.

>>13923450
You're spot on, except that all the people here doing what you accuse are actually saying things quite heterodox to Christianity.

>>13923464
Yes and its good style to partition a part of a post that occurs in an entirely different dialect from the body which occurs in another.

>>13918848
>If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Sounds more like a cult leader

>>13923464
spacing is not "style"

>>13923483
It's bad style to ignore the context where the writing is published. You wouldn't put citations in a birthday card.

>>13923491
>You wouldn't put citations in a birthday card

That's where you're wrong.

>>13923487
Yes,
it is.

>>13923499
Alright. I'm an adult. I can admit when I've been btfo'd. You win this time, reddit man.

>>13918848
Literally name me one thing Jesus said that was as Philosophically profound as Diogenes' dialogue with Plato on "cupness"

>>13923702
"Why God have you forsaken me," a direct quote of Psalm 22, by Kind David, a psalm for the death of an innocent, said as he died on the cross, all the events of the psalm having just taken place before the community.

>>13923702
Diogenes was cringe even in his time, the guy regularly got fucking rekt in arguments by uneducated soldiers.

>>13922917
I was raised an atheist, completely free of any Christian influence. I came to the conclusion that Christianity is true on my own, not by being inculcated into it.

>>13918848
>>13918978
Believe on the Lord Jesus Chirst and you shall be saved.

>>13923110
He's sharing sincerely an experience he's had. Even if you disagree with his interpretation on your religious tradition, allow him the Freedom to present his viewpoint without being harassed for it. Your own ideology stands on equal grounds to his, in my view.

>>13923095
I believe we’re here to practice compassion on each other and gain better understanding of ourselves. We’re all connected, not just physically as process philosophy usually speaks of, but metaphysically, sharing a collective unconsciousness and having derived from the same source of spiritual life, which I believe to be God. We are all God, who chose to incarnate in human form, like Christ, which is why I believe he said “ye are all Gods.” God, in essence, rejected the collective body that mystics, transhumanists, fascists, etc long to return to (without considering the reason why we’re here in the first place), from considering this existence as physically divided, but metaphysically connected as superior. This is why I also believe it’s said that God acts through people, as we have the power to connect with each other to save each other from evil. Since the greatest suffering we experience is from the hands of others, I believe the problem of evil is a form of escape from one’s contribution to the overall state of the world that leads to people hurting each other, which is a result of people not striving to understand or respect each other, out of fear of seeing their own self in relation to others. The reason people escape like this is because, on top of recognizing one’s flaws, the second one understands, they have to comply with truth, and that means bearing a great deal of suffering. We’re all finite in our conscious understanding and only understand each other through collective concepts (like, calling someone “nice” even though they fulfill that concept differently from other), but we need the faith to believe there’s a purpose in pushing for better connection with other people, in order to fulfill our purpose here. The Bible condemns mysticism because it’s largely a form of escape, and as I said earlier, a desire to return to the collective body without considering why we’re here in the first place.
I do believe that the material world is less real than the spiritual, somewhat like Gnosticism, but that the greatest reality is found in other people.

>>13918867
The Roman Empire existed for far more time after the death of Christ than before it retard

>>13918848
Zarathustra.
His teachings are encapsulated in the Gathas, which is the only portion which goes back to him.

>>13924857
bump

>>13924441
>He is just saying things. Why should it matter if they are true?
You are very dishonest to say they stand on equal ground. His ideas come from a vague and passing emotion he felt without reference or root. It is unconnected to anything and offers no practical application. It is not useful for anything except feeling good about oneself for having been enlightened. My ideology is not even mine. It has been built up carefully by centuries. Men far wiser than I have spent their lives discussing the most intricate parts, making sure the whole thing holds. It offers deep explanations perfectly married with ordinary practice. Its effectiveness is evidenced by the lives of many saints, great works of art, awe inspiring buildings, entire cultures that have prospered and found peace within its structure. Every dictator has been sincere, and so is every petty thief when he pulls his knife. If you would grant him the freedom to speak without consideration, then please allow me to correct without restraint.

>>13927327
Many people feel exactly about your ideology as you do his, including people who dedicate their lives towards spiritual study. These individuals are found in the Enlightenment, and beyond. That said, you do have every right to attempt to correct someone, but you were being a bit harsh to someone simply presenting their own interpretation of your religion. Also, I would separate the culture from the metaphysics, in that leading a Christian lifestyle can certainly bring one peace and societal prosperity, without this indicating that a man from the first-century did indeed raise himself from the dead, or that a Personal God created the whole Universe, and with Humanity to play a central role in it, and that role specifically being to worship Jesus and the entity He claimed to represent. Other spiritual cultures also bring their adherents peace, and create positive value within their society, including artwork and architecture.

I hope your day is going well.

>>13923762
So your contention is that stupid people don't exist?

>>13918848
Pretty much the only thing Jesus did that was clever was saying "Render unto Caesar" and we have just as many accounts of Socrates and other ancient philosophers doing similarly clever things.

>>13928051
that was by far the lest clever thing he did

>>13919193
In simplicity, you believe in God because it gives you a certain sensation. A sensation of hope, and peace with the destitution of Being, or in other words, you perfectly adhere to Nietzsche's critique of Christianity: That Christians are lowly people trying to come to terms with their impossibility of changing the utter worthlessness of their existence.

>Jesus why do you speak in parables
>To prevent the heathens from understanding
>Any atheist can understand the parables

What did he mean by this?

>>13928198
That was just Jesus aggrandizing himself, as usual. Or maybe the writer of said parables praising his own work.

(not trying to offend anyone here, but it's pretty undeniable that Jesus exalted himself at most opportunities)

Who christian anarchist here

>>13928198
>>13928326
Tell all the truth but tell it slant —
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind —

>>13928446
That's another incoherent idea. Christ said to bend the knee even to the most arrogated and unofficial forms of authority. Its literally the practice of being a floor-mat.

>>13927989
How can you not see the absurdity of your position? You are trying to tone police, for what? I am being too harsh, you say. But what if I say I am not being harsh enough? Certainly, there are those faiths where sacrilege said by any person is punishable by death. It really seems like you have zero knowledge of any of these deep faith traditions, and you only take up this bland equivocation in order to allow yourself to feel more superior than any of them, because you at least have a balanced perspective. I hope your day goes well, but I must also admit that I think the best case scenario for your day would be that you would have the sudden revelation of God in Christ; as much as it would be wonderful for you, it would be catastrophic compared to every value you holdup to now.

>>13928470
Paul said that not jesus. How you expect to win this argument when I have read the actual source material and you haven’t is beyond me

>>13928488
You know its heresy to say that Jesus did not speak through Paul, right?

>>13928470
It's not an incoherent idea necessarily, but it tends to be. If all men's hearts were perfect, there would be no need for laws, and therefore no government in the way it's understood now. There might arise a natural hierarchy, and yet it would be accepted by all and would carry no privilege. The Catholic utopia would essentially be an anarchic monarchy. It is what communism tries to construct, but it cannot be done without faith in Christ, servant and king.

>>13928526
>Holy Spirit
>Jesus
Yikes!

>>13928551
>Dividing the trinity into distinct persons

Double Yikes

>>13928554
>thinking the separate parts of the trinity are god
Omegayikes

>>13928551
It was the Holy Spirit who actively spoke through Paul and the scriptures. But Jesus is the Word of God, meaning that what the Holy Spirit communicates through Paul is Jesus, no? So, yes, it's not right to say Jesus spoke through Paul in a very strict theological sense, it is in another sense not an error. It is however an error to suggest, however it is said, that scripture is not the word of God, and therefore Christ.

>>13928573
Jesus is god incarnate, the metaphysical god is the whole trinity and not just one part

>>13928578
The way you phrase that seems to deny the divinity of each. Each member of the trinity is God entire, and they are the same God, and they are not each other. Jesus is not simply the physical manifestation of God.

>>13928551
>>13928573
>>13928578
Whatever you idiots are debating, you can't say that Jesus is in discord with the Holy Spirit or The Father. They all necessarily have the same things to say.

>>13928611
That's what I said here:>>13928573

>>13928611
Then how can Jesus not know the hour or day of apocalypse but the Father can?

>>13922073
t-the aqueduct?

>>13928634
It is inclusive and not exclusive. One cannot say what would disagree with another. That would be an absurd thought. But they are not the same. The crucifixion happened to the Son, but not to the Father.