/lit/ - Literature

No being intellectually honest will make you a fascist.

just flip him upside down

>>13782544
>can you be a hegelian idealist
Dialectists get out

>>13782553
no

>Is Gentile worth reading?
Of course

>>13782721
why

>>13782727
the origins and doctrine of fascism shaped one of the biggest political forces of the last century and its influence can still be felt today.

Okay does any of you retards actually know what Hegel thought? Where does the idea that his thought can lead to fascism or is compatible with it come from?

fascism is just crony capitalism

>>13783693

>>13783641
Gentile? A literal Hegelian philosopher, who was the official philosopher of Fascism?

>>13784963
but why would hegelian idealism lead there?

>>13783641
It comes from the immediate postwar years when it become fashionable in the West to blame German fascism on Germany's "illiberal" tradition, which was associated with conservatism, state-worship, and nationalism. A popular meme about Hegel was that he was the high philosopher of state worship and raisons d'etat. Supposedly he thought the Prussian authoritarian state was the culmination of history, and since most people associated the Prussian state (and its successor state, the fascists, who supposedly smothered Weimar liberal democracy) with the ultra-conservative Junker aristocracy, Hegel was commonly lumped together with everything bad about the Wilhelmine and fascist eras. Same goes for German historicism (the so-called Prussian school), German romanticism (often affiliated with nationalism, obscurantism, and mysticism), and Nietzsche (the philosopher of the will to power and the amoral blond beast, until he was rehabilitated by the English into a jejune liberal dandy who was above partisanship and by the French into a norm-transgressing queer AIDS faggot).

In reality Hegel was a proponent of the French revolution, Enlightenment, and constitutional monarchy.

>>13783693
Fascism intends to break with the capitalist system, so no.

>>13785833
I should add that this doesn't necessarily mean that Gentile's philosophy is wrong either. If you want to know what Gentile thought, read Gentile. Hegel would be the first to admit that the real content of a philosopher's thoughts might not be transparent to him. Nothing rules out the possibility of Gentile's Hegelism being an organic development of Hegel.

>>13782547
>idealist
The part Marx gets rid of

>>13782546
scientific consensus says race aint real and ancedotally we can produce viable offspring so no not really

>>13785836
In Germany and Italy this intention was spat on. In exchange for supporting the fascists and lending them their ears, the high and mighty of business were treated to backroom deals, political influence, and guaranteed state protection against any opposition. If anything, it was an escalation, amplification, and fortification of conditions often extant under even the most liberal interpretations of capitalism.
It is difficult to even consider imagining something of that description as something new, different, divergent enough.

>>13785849
>scientific consensus says race aint real

do not post while jewish

>>13785849
Maybe in social anthropology, but in genetics that is absolutely not the consensus.
t. Geneticist

>>13785887
It's been a while since I've seen a post as worthless as this one. On this board, specifically.

>>13785897
what did i just say to you?

>>13785903
Yikes. /pol/tards are control freaks on anonymous image boards

>>13783693
Are you just... Why are you even breathing oxygen?

>>13785892
>maybe if I larp as a geneticist I can convince people to believe my racist bullshit
lol fuck off faggot.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/

>>13785984
>https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/
>https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/
>2018/

>Editors-in-chief
>Susan Goldberg (April 2014 – present)[1][11][12]
>In 2014 Goldberg became the 10th editor of the magazine and the first ever woman.[24][25][1][26][8][2] She is also the first Jewish editor in chief of the magazine.[27]
>In January 2017 the National Geographic published an issue that explored gender issues, "Gender Revolution."[29]
>In 2017 the Washingtonian Magazine selected Goldberg as one of Washington's most powerful women.[34]

>>13785984
The conclusion of the article is "race is more complex that we previously understood it and categorization should be more precise", not "human populations do not exist in groups with similar genotypes and phenotypes therefore a pygmee and an anatolian cannot exhibit very noticeable differences that we would categorize as different races if we were talking about dogs or poultry"
Name it something else than race you want, but if being able to trace your lineage with DNA is not a proof that human groups have noticeable enough differences among them. Same species, different sub-groups that have always been exchanging and mixing. No, there's no "caucasoid" or "negroid" race indeed, it's more complex. If you're retarded enough to believe an australian aboriginal and a japanese person do not have a greater genetic difference between them than between them and their peers, go ahead.

>>13785892
hmmm, so german fascism was a aberration it seems

>>13785991
stop noticing things

>>13783641
Hegel is the basis for Nationalism in Central and Eastern Europe along with Herder and Fichte. You don't need to turn him over his head like Marx, you just need to follow dialectics of the Nation State(the most rational government type to exist) to the end and you'll find forms of fascism. It's Orthodox hegelianism when giving Philosophy of Right as the prime hegelian text.

>>13787621
this discounts the preface where Hegel says humans are totally useless in determining the future and cannot instrumentalize the state to the ends of history the way Fascists like Gentile thought you could. If he read German he might not have been so easily mislead

>>13782544
I thought Hegel was particularly associated with Marxism.

>>13787798
No that was his cousin lǝƃǝH.

>>13787798
Only because Marx butchered him and took him into a materialist dead end. Hegel himself was an idealist.
>>13787784
>Walter Kaufmann
Kaufmann intrudes his own opinions everywhere. His Nietzsche translations are most notorious for this.

>>13782547
Marx was coomer?

>>13787972
Anon, I don't think the material dialectic necessitates ontological materialism

>>13787972
Gentile didn't corrupt Hegel with his shitty reading, it was the most well respected German translator!

>>13788092
>Kaufmann is notorious for inserting his own thoughts where they dont belong but that's certainly not a problem here
I bet you think calling Nietzsche an anti-fascist isnt an issue as well, huh?

>>13787784
Why use that line as an influence of Hegel on totalitarianism? Fascism is secular and both Gentile and Mussolini were atheists, they have no reason to use that as a justification for the state. And they dont need to, since Hegel made plenty of assertions that can be seen as 'proto-fascist' that do not require God, but rather the praising of great men and nationalism, while showing contempt for public opinion and democracy.

>>13788132
What are you on about?

>>13788188
So you're problem is with Gentile and Mussolini not understanding fascism?

>>13788214
I have no idea how you could possibly conclude that from my post. Also
>you're

>>13788220
What, do you think Gentile wasn't actually influenced by that line? Have you ever read him? Gentile's argument was that this implies there is no higher appeal than to the state, not even transcendent appeals a la religion. He didn't interpret it as:
>woah God is alive man and it's like pantheism but he's like cities or something man woah

>>13782544
>Can you be a Hegelian idealist without ending up as a fascist?
why?

>>13785836
They claimed it wrong, corporatism is a type of capitalism.

>>13785984
>national geographic
lmoa

>>13788253
Like I said, there were plenty of other sentences that Hegel used to describe pseudo-totalitarianism or descriptions of the State as being the highest and purest authority. Even if we take Kaufmanns interpretations of 258, we're still left with statements like this:

>"The really living totality, that which preserves, and continually produces, the State and its constitution, is the Government. In the Government, regarded as an organic totality, the Sovereign Power or Principate is ... the all sustaining, all decreeing Will of the State, its highest peak and all pervasive unity. In the perfect form of the State in which each and every element ... has reached its free existence, this will is that of one actual decreeing individual; it is monarchy. The monarchical constitution is therefore the constitution of developed reason; and all other constitutions belong to lower grades of development and the self-realization of reason."
and
>"The origin of a State involves imperious lordship on the one hand, instinctive submission on the other. Obedience - Lordly power, and the fear inspired by a ruler - in itself implies some degree of voluntary connection ... it is not the isolated will of individuals that prevails; individual pretensions are relinquished, and the general will is the essential bond of political union."

Which are both either pro-monarchist or very close to what would eventually become fascism.

>>13785880
Government intervening and working with corporations isn’t capitalism

>>13788349
Yes Hegel was pro-monarchy, but constitutional monarchy, by which the unity of the state is expressed through a monarch who is a conduit to reason. The monarch in Hegel's system is not all powerful, he should be bonded to the reason of both universal and particular interests, which emerge from below. It's not much like the fascism we see in the 20th century at all.