/lit/ - Literature

>>13733947
What do you mean? Nihilism might be the least defense mechism-tier "ideology" there is.

It's reality.

>>13733947
A justification for nervous jitters, inflated fantasies, and difficulty maintaining eye contact

It's just the acknowledgement of an objective and uncomfortable fact, with no sugar coating. I'm not a nihilist because im too weak to accept the truth, but intellectually I know it's true.

>>13733959
>>13733961
Like a fish that does not notice its environment until it's out of the water. What is the body communicating through its death spasms?

>>13733981
we all know that you have watched that speech video of dfw and accepted as an objective truth.

>>13733947
It can be either. Stoicism can also be a defense mechanism, but that's really just "Pop stoicism" and not real, literate stoicism.

It can be both depending on how bitter you can be but you can never reach full *enlightenment* so to speak since we have too many defense programs in our head to counter the ascension into accepting the bleak and utterly repulsive depravity called existence. You can know and acknowledge you are just a biological puppet on strings but you will never really accept or realise this due to built in limitations. If we could we would commit global suicide.

>>13733947
Nihilism is just reality in its purest form.

>>13734100
The anon writes, "meaning meaning meaning."

pop culture nihilism is, ironically, a meaningless fad that will go away

>>13734132
what is pop culture nihilism?

>>13734196

>>13734196
have you ever seen rick and morty

Nihilism is reality, there is no ideology of nihilism, just reality. Everything else is defense mechanism and cope.

>>13733947
It's an incoherent coping mechanism employed by people who want to indulge in their sinful passions without reprisal.

>>13734215
no but saw few /tv/ memes floating around

>>13734241
cope

>>13733947
is 4chan peak postmodern contrarian nihilism?

>>13733947
That picture is so fucking gross

>>13734256
seethe

>>13733947
It’s a defence mechanism by brainless who cannot into the relationship between subjectivity and objectivity. I have never met a nihilist that didn’t get triggered by saying some shit like “the holocaust never happened” or “fuck niggers” or “the Earth is flat” because they’re all hypocrites who deep down believe in value statements and some form of morality.

>>13734391
Doesn't trigger me. I don't care about any of it. Life is just a gigantic slaughterhouse. We are nothing but dust particles in the giant void of decaying stars and planets. Why would words or events coming forth gtom something so insignificant as our existence hold any merit in a fabricated reality we perceive to experience.

On the contrary, nihilism is neither "reality" nor "objective". It's a belief based upon empirical experience. It is not knowledge a priori. Any conclusion about a meaning to life, even the lack of, requires a leap to faith.

I have nihilistic tendencies because I find it to be a useful belief system. That is, all moral choices not predicated on laws established by Nature/God are life-affirming and immediate. My choice to help (or ignore) my fellow holds more value between both parties involved. Eleanor Roosevelt once said "Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility", and I find it a greater virtue to be responsible to humans than to another being.

it's all a repetitive circle like this: no award, seek award, get award and this eventually wears out, when it wears out you seek a change but after a few changes you realize even changes go through the cycle of award, and no matter how many layers you go you are trapped in this circle because those hormones are just like light. darkness (sadness) is the origin and the base but lights comes to flatter us.
if you dig deep enough you will eventually alienate your consciousness from your endocrinological self and you will see your body as a predictable machine while you just observe unable to do anything.

>>13734577
Unable to do anything but know the pleasure received to a body well-rested from the glow of the morning sun which is not deserved, simply is, without language.

>>13734490
>>13734577

For me at least, I used it as a defense mechanism against my conscience. It wasn't a rational process at all.

Religion and nihilism are the only two logical possibilities. The real coping mechanisms are the reasons nihilists give for why they don't kill themselves.

>>13733947
Nihilism is the result of the loss of Christian dogma as a realistic belief in the west. The weak minded who would in centuries past cling to the idea that "God is truth, truth is God" now know that God is not real but they still cling to that unstated cultural maxim which therefore now translates as "truth is not real". In the absence of God they are unable to create their own values or beliefs and revolve themselves around the specter of self-annihilation.

As much as defeatism

>>13735447
>destroy carefully put together moral system that preaches good and gives people a goal and sense of belonging
>"I dunno just make your own values lmao"
>"the guy who figures this shit out will be very smart, I bet"

Nietzsche was a hack

>>13735470
He wanted each individual to follow their own instincts and value what they felt as their own authentic virtues. Also Nietzsche wrote like 3 how to guides specifically on the topic. The geneology of morality was basically showing how the slave and master moral axis was created and therefore you should be able to do it yourself.

>>13734460
I hate this type of melodramatic reasoning because it is shallow and completely bereft of any content. Consider the statement:
>we are tiny specks of dust in a vast and infinite space
You, as have many others in the past, claimed that this makes us and our choices meaningless. The frequency with which this statement is uttered leads me to believe that nihilists generally parse this fact as one supporting this view. But the implication of that is that the opposite would work against nihilism.
So if you imagine hypothetically that you lived in a box, a large box perhaps 1000m^3, and that the sum of your existence occurred within that box, everyone you met lived in that box, and reality literally did not exist outside that box.
In other words you, in relation to the entire cosmos, were huge. If being small is evidence of being meaningless, then being large must conversely be evidence of being meaningful. So you believe that a life in which we are giants living in a small cosmos would be more meaningful?

>>13735553
it's almost as if nihilists don't have anyhing to say other than "we don't matter"

>>13733947
Neither. It's just lazy and boring. Well, actually most 'nihilists' or at least the pop culture nihilists don't even understand it. They think it's just woooaaaaahhhh everything is like meaninglesss duuuddee because uh spaaaccee is big n stuff and um social conditioning exists aaaanndd omg fukin DRUMPF. Without understanding what it means philosophically. This is obviously a shallow and barely defined ideology, it's nothing more than an edgy sentiment become trendy because it's extremely easy to espouse and entertain. In that way, I respect the few that aim to be true (biologically/mentally impossible) nihilists. I still disagree with it because it remains essentially Christian and is yet to consider beyond or be critical of its basis in any capacity, too content with itself, itself being nothingness and intellectual death. Also, it's a good exercise to be able to take a step back, a bit of nihilism is something we all need no matter how strong we want our fulfilment and purpose to be. Online meme ideologues need it the most.

>>13736952
absurdists are massive faggots. who are way too afraid to accept that basically it's just nihilism in hip new packaging for normalfaggot consumption.

Nihilism (defined as a belief that life is meaningless by default) is literally the ONLY possible description of reality, once you reject the existence of a conscious God.
However "meme nihilism" (memes about depression etc.) is just a cultural fad for edgy younglings, just like "emo" back in the day.

>>13733961

>>13737063
Epic. Pray to that dead Jew. Your prayers will come true.

>>13737021
Each word of what you're typing would pure schizo nonsense. If what is written is true, I'd comprehend you as well as squirrel would if I'd squatted beside one and asked it about its family.

Life is quite literally packed with meaning

>>13735553
Well I agree with ur argument because that "we are nothing in space" conclusion is fucking retarded our fucking galaxy is nothing for space. So we have to consider our meaning on earth as smth worth analyze and when u do that reality says that most likely u will live and die without achieving jack shit as most people so nihilism is just philosophy for people who are not dumb but found out that they are not special either.

>>13733947
nihilism is for narcissistic white men
so yeah it's bad

>>13737124
>Life is quite literally packed with meaning
It's just your opinion

>>13733947
Nihilism is pretty embarrassing.

>>13737428
>said the tripfag on 4chin

>>13737388
You grasped the meaning somehow and in some manner. The former is the mystery of being and the latter is the miracle of technology that allows this species unparalleled social engagement. What a fantasy, a literal fantasy.

>>13733947
Can Nihilists refute this?

>>13734263
Yes.

>>13735553
Based.

>>13733947
It's an impossible position. You can't exist and not act according to value

>>13733947
Which type of nihilism? Existential nihilism is legit, life has no inherent value. Epistemological nihilism is a contradiction.

>>13737822
What is there to refute? Life has no inherent value, but my life has subjective value to me, and your life has subjective value to you. If you try to kill me I'll defend myself. If you succeed my family will try to get revenge. If you value your life like most people, you probably won't do it.

>>13733947
why would it be a defence mechanism

>>13738132
You can act according to subjective value.

>>13738162
>what is there to refute, life has no in–
>*BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**BLAM*
Now you're no longer a nihilist, you're a corpse.
Refuted.

It's the default state of the midwit mind. Just enough IQ to doubt existence, but not enough to understand it. A pitiful but ultimately forgettable state of affairs. One of quick wit ought to dwell on midwits not.

>>13733947
Nihilists are the philosophical equivalent of those people that are clever and good at learning a subject but too cowardly/lazy to actually dedicate any time to learning about that subject. It's like those people you meet who were really good at physics in high school then went on to study some easy meme degree but still feel the need to periodically spout their theories about ontology and how we're in a simulation. Every argument I've ever gotten into with a self proclaimed nihilist has revealed them to have virtually no understanding of formal logic or sylllogisms etc. They just endlessly spout completely unfalsifiable statements about how X truism means we live in a Y world. Usually arguments like 'dude we're just matter' or 'every decision you make is evolutionary biology' or 'determinism DUDE life is absurd'. They occasionally add window dressing to these statements but any serious conversation with these people will reveal that their entire viewpoint of reality is informed by intuition. Other hallmarks of the nihilist are an incessant need to namedrop entry-level scientists and philosophers and make reference to pop culture. I don't even have a problem with nihilism as a philosophy but the problem is the idea is populated entirely by people who just like 'reading and thinking about stuff' and the minute you have them on the ropes they just dismiss your reasoning as cope.
Every nihilist is basically someone saying 'here's my hot take on life'.
The absolute hallmark of psuedophilosophy is presenting ideas that cannot be negated with counterfactuals such as >>13735553 points out.
Just try this DIY test to see how serious someone is:
>ask them why they believe life has no meaning
>present a hypothetical counterfactual
>ask them in what way that reality would have meaning
It's particularly grating as a chemist because of the number of times I have heard the word 'dopamine' uttered by philosophy majors I meet in college makes me want to shoot myself.

>>13734209
She looks all dark and shit but every time she opens her mouth she’s a basic bitch. Is this the normie of the future?

>>13734236
Defense mechanisms and cope is also a part of reality. get rekt stupid.

>>13733966
Perhaps. But also the cause as well.

>>13739126
To demonstrate my case in point:
>>13738162
Claims life has no inherent meaning. In other words this anon believe that X observed experiences/facts about this reality has led him to conclude that life only has relative meaning. I would now like to ask, describe a conceptual negation to your premise. Describe a reality that did have inherent meaning and explain to me how that reality differs from this one?
If we were immortal, would our lives have meaning suddenly? We could always ask ourselves what is the point of living eternally.
If there was visible, definitive proof of a benevolent god promising us an eternity in paradise in exchange for us to obey certain laws, would that make life meaningful? We could always ask why does god wish to reward us, is there more to life than just obedience in exchange for paradise?
It's almost as if the concept of 'inherent meaning' is in itself an entirely subjective standard you apply to reality that you yourself have no way to actually grasp, that you have created a metric perpetually out of reach because it is paradoxical and antithetically to sentience and subjectivity. The ability to be subjective necessitates that ability to question, the ability to question means that anything and everything can be questioned ergo you will never have an answer to your question. Could it be that the real issue is attempting to filter the infinite potentialities of existence and thought through a framework designed to solve finite problems (what is the purpose of this gear within this engine) is an impossible operation. Could it be that the answer isn't that life has no meaning but instead that meaning itself is to specific and narrow a concept that to attempt to transpose it to life is like trying to divide a number by zero. That because consciousness is a product of existence it is illogical to attempt to process the sum of existence through the perception of consciousness? Could it be you're just bitter at life?

>>13738132
I agree with this. Although you can't ever truly embody it the more you do you lose all sense of a self, suffer from anhedonia and lose all drive to do anything.

>>13738670
Kek

Nihilists trying to convince others of nihilism seems like bad game theory. The most they can accomplish is convince me life has no meaning. In which case I have no reason to not try and force my beliefs onto them by any means cause its not like I have to any longer worry about that being immoral right? And making people behave the way I find convenient still has relative value to my own life, even if that has no "value" long term.

>>13738670
lmaoooo holy fucking shit

>>13733947
how funny that the board supposedly centered around literature is the one that provides the worst replies when it comes to explaining what nihilism is, it's so clear to me none of you have never read a book in your lives much less any of the intricate masterpieces of nietzsche

>>13739549
What is nihilism?

>>13739549
>haha lemme call out these stupid plebs. i am too much of a big brained intellectual to provide any arguments haha

Well this thread is full of people who doesn't read a book about nihilism in their lives. Which is kinda weird considering the subject matter and 4chan is a match made in heaven.

>>13739126
>why they believe life has no meaning
There is none. It just is. Existence is a horrorshow for us, humans, due to the surplus of consiosness that happened for reasons unknown. If life had any meaning, you and people around you wouldn't buy and read thousands of books and articles about why you should continue to live and why to be alive is a good thing, or to spend money on scammy psychologists who'll temporarily fix your lack of belief that life is a good thing, or go to place of faith and pray to fictional beings for reason of eternal afterlife bliss thinking that this is why being alive is a good thing, because otherwise it would be obvious to you. Nothing alive in this world fully realizes the horror of existence except humans, because we are not a part of natural world anymore, we became fully aware of where we are and who we are, and this turned badly for us.

>>13739746
>Nothing alive in this world fully realizes the horror of existence except humans
Spot on anon.

>>13739746
>meaning
>is none
>just is
>is a horrorshow

Wrap it up, we smoking meth and going homeless tomorrow. Hit me with another dose of schizo bullshit ASAP.

>>13739791
I know you are being derisive but this is why people spiral into alcoholism and other addictions. Something minor falls out of place and then again, many times until it all comes crashing down.

>>13739746
Assuming that you're a nihilist, why do you believe that the individual cannot create meaning for himself? What's wrong with living to fulfill a purpose? And why do you seemingly assume that every non-nihilist is either a doomer or religious? Have you ever met anyone outside of your depressing circle of friends and relatives?

>>13739791
Understanding the meaningness of life is not always a path to decadent lifestyle, but rather, to a existence free of moral constrains. There is a thing called egoistical nihilism. If life has no meaning, you can create the meaning of your own. Nothing stops you from sinning, fucking bitches and snorting coke while driving a sportscar, or watch anime or finishing as much vidia as possible. You can still enjoy what you can until it all ends. All nihilists are either losers or hyperchads.
>>13739875
>why do you believe that the individual cannot create meaning for himself?
Also answering your question above.
>What's wrong with living to fulfill a purpose?
Nothing, except that this purpose is an act of self-hypnosis that you cast upon yourself everyday to believe that your life has a meaning. There is nothing bad about it, it's just a defencive mechanism that keeps madness at bay.
>And why do you seemingly assume that every non-nihilist is either a doomer or religious?
Well I'm not from USA and I constantly see that americans are very God fearing for some reason.
>Have you ever met anyone outside of your depressing circle of friends and relatives?
That's a strange question.

>>13739746
You made a statement, that statement is 'life has no meaning', this is *by definition* a belief of yours. As in you must have, using some faculty of your mind, concluded that life has no meaning. It is a valid assertion to make, no doubt. But now I am asking you what observations you have made that lead to that conclusion, and conversely if had you observed the opposite of those observations would you believe the opposite?
I am simply trying to understand the journey taken from when you were born and knew nothing, to this moment where you exist and know that life has no meaning. Surely some or many logical observations lead you to reach your conclusion. Or do you acknowledge that your viewpoint is nothing more than unfounded dogma whereby you intuitively hold that it is true without examining the premises under which it is true?
Some have said to me that they have searched for meaning and found none, but the problem is that without a rigorously defined criteria for meaning they cannot demonstrate its absence.
Like I said my biggest issue with nihilism isn't the core conceit, it's the lack of intellectual rigour applied to the conclusions. Of course some could argue that in being a nihilist they do not believe in logic or proof since nothing has meaning, but this is circular logic and is a fundamentally incoherent way to operate. It is essentially saying that 'now that I am a nihilist I am a nihilist because I don't believe in anything that would disprove nihilism'.
So which are you? A dogmatic fatalist who simply asserts an unfalsifiable claim? Or someone who has actually examined life using specific criteria and found life to have no meaning? If you are the latter, then I would like to know your criteria and the conditions of falsifiability. I.e. in a hypothetical universe what observation would lead you to conclude life has a meaning?

>>13739941
>There is a thing called egoistical nihilism. If life has no meaning, you can create the meaning of your own

That's called existentialism. You can't just put random adjectives before nihilism and say it's legitimate. Are you 100% sure you're a nihilist? You seem to be defining the term in your own sense.

>>13739941
You're misunderstanding. I'm insulting him for talking schizo nonsense.

>if life has no meaning, you can create the meaning

Then there is meaning, it is the necessary component to action, down to the beating of the heart.

Something compels you to explaining, knowing English and good grammar, and of keeping sound enough mind and body to express yourself. Your self being the infinite void of nothing where meaning is vomiting out of in attempts to conceive meaningnessless.

>>13734263
Postmodernism is philosophy of subjectivity, but nihilist are largely ignorant of subjective reality. They are modernists pretty sure.

>>13739941
So because you see sad religious fucks in american media you assume that anyone who doesn't share your idiotic beliefs is just like that? How much of a narrow minded, self-centered elitist cock sucker do you have to be to follow this ideology? And why do you even bother replying to this thread if any of this supposedly holds no meaning? Is it maybe because convincing others that nihilism is not stupid means something to you?

>>13739978
>That's called existentialism.

Isn't it Absurdism? I thought Existentialism was that life has found meaning -- the thing in itself, or whatever; whereas Absurdism has created meaning.

Eitherway, that guy just wants his cake and to eat it, too.

Nihilism is the only defensible conclusion of philosophical enquiry.

>>13740049
Absurdism is when you keep eating ass during a shit

>>13740062
Flat earth is defensible conclusion too. It only depends on how hard you defend.

>>13740049
both are kinda broad terms and we can discuss all day which one means what, but it's clear as day that this guy does not understand nihilism no matter how often he wants to play the "life is meaningless" card.

>>13733947
Nihilism is imply the outward rationalization of severe clinical depression. It is depression that has been value-transformed, dressed up, and put on display ad an attempt at a semi-coherent philosophical outlook. A healthy, functioning human mind/body politic takes no stock in nihilism and the empty frivolities it speaks.

>>13739154
>Describe a reality that did have inherent meaning
Okay.

A reality with inherent meaning would have observable moral laws that had real effects brought about by natural processes of the universe if not adhered to.

For example, a universe where karma is real - where the universe itself really does react to whether your actions are good or bad and this reaction has measurable effects.

In a way you could describe the instinctual human social order (if you take such a thing to exist) as a form of inherent meaning within the human social universe by my definition, but because it is limited to humans it's still socially constructed.

>>13733970
Because the universe is valueless does not mean human life is valueless. That value can be asserted by fiat, determined by the valuing process of the mind directly, without cosmic intermediaries or a "godly stamp of approval" from on high.

>>13733947
It is a legit ideology created and kept relevant by people using it as a defense mechanism

>>13740102
So karma is what would make life meaningful? How? Some people would still end up on top and others would still end up on the bottom, with people on the bottom being those who violated an arbitrary moral code, and those who end up on the top those who obeyed an arbitrary moral code. Either that or even would simply do good in order to be rewarded and you'd have a world in which everything was distributed evenly and predictably.
Is an entirely predictable universe where every action is predetermined to lead to a certain outcome not infinitely more meaningless than a random one?

OP here, nice thread boys, keep it going

>>13734019
Link it

>>13740136
Agree, I think the absurdist doctrine is right on this point. Even if the universe had some "moral code" or a God dictating it, that would make it no less absurd and anti-human, given that the universe has the hostile and deadly character that it has. Any value to be brought from existence has to originate from within and imposed one existence, rather than "essence preceding existence" as Sartre called it, with the meaning of our lives being stamped onto us and decided by nonnegotiable objectivity.

>>13740102
Observable moral law shown through your grammar, well structures pose, and civil response.

Good karma received through response complimenting your chosen order as passed from others, your language and civility to a question.I

Social constructions are not limited to our species. You'll find ants with ants doing ant specific things. And for certain we have instincts, how is that questionable to exist.

>>13734263
It's pseudo-edgy reddit cancer. Pseudo, because they heard edginess is fashionable and nihilism is the most edgy concept their 100IQ normie brains can understand.

>>13739126
>why they believe life has no meaning
No objective* meaning because I dunno I don't feel like there is one, there might be tho
You could invent a subjective meaning for yourself if you want

>>13740136
>So karma is what would make life meaningful?
No, a universe where karma is real is an example of a universe in which morality is a fundamental law and not a matter of opinion.

We're using the word "meaning" but if you go back to the post which started this discussion it talks about the value of life (in the context of whether it's good or bad to preserve life). So it's not really a question of whether karma would give life meaning. But to answer that question anyway, no I don't think that it would. Good and bad are separate from meaningful. It's good to be kind but it's not really meaningful to be kind.

You mention that the moral law is arbitrary, and you're right. The problem with my example is that this law of nature can exist without you agreeing with it as being a moral law. For example, the law of gravity exists but we don't call it a moral law. It just is "the law." In a universe where moral law is real, moral discussions would probably be quite different. So this example only makes sense in the context of us observing that universe and not from the context of people in that universe commenting on their own universe. Basically - a universe with inherent morality could only appear to have inherent morality from an outside perspective. People in that universe wouldn't see it as morality, but rather as physics.

But the question is: what would a universe with moral law - or "moral physics" - look like? And I think the answer to that question is that there would be a force or forces occurring naturally in the universe that are affected by what we consider the morality of your actions and then, as a result of being so affected, go on to cause other things in that universe. So, for example, a noble-hearted and purely intended donation to charity causes X to happen whereas the exact same donation in the exact same circumstances but done with sneaky and manipulative intent (even if kept perfectly secret) causes Y to happen instead because the difference in your intent affected the immutable moral physics of the universe.

What is actually caused is immaterial, I think, but for the sake of argument let's say that reward is caused by good acts and punishment is caused by bad acts - and the goodness and badness of acts is judged by the universe also by whether or not they are done for the reward.

>>13740102
Bad actions have effect: people feel bad about doing them. And when they don't it means they are stupid, and stupidity has a lot of its own effects.

>>13733970
actually once you accept it things look better than you'd expect

100th reply :^)

People overlook that Nietzsche saw the Übermensch in those people that managed to go past Nihilism and still live, without enslaving themselves into a lost cause like religion, history or philosophy.

So every person saying they're a nihilist, say they don't find meaning in life other than entertainment and buying products, those are the losers. Those are the stay behinds.

>>13740485
this isn't a nietzsche thread though.

>>13740611
Nietzsche wrote extensively about nihilism.
And really, what is this thread? A miserable little pile of secrets.

>>13740224
But my point is that no matter what kind of a universe was constructed, no matter what kind of laws existed whether they were objectively moral or not, is that by the very fact that we were born into this universe and can never experience any other kind of universe, we would also why wonder “why is it like x” and thus we would perceive every scenario as random. If there was some god telling us what to do we’d ask “why is he god” and “why does he want us to do this”, you see nihilism isn’t a statement or observation about the universe, it’s a consequence of confronting the finite (this reality) with the infinite (all possible realities).
If you died and woke up and it turned out this life was a dream you would inevitably ponder whether the “real life” was in fact a dream, regardless of whether it was, and you could never truly prove it wasn’t. In reality nihilism is simply our inability to come to terms with the consequence of free will/consciousness. When you say “I’m a nihilist” you are really just saying you are a solipsistic skeptic, you aren’t making any qualifiable statement about reality itself. Every conceivable universe you ever occupied, you could ask yourself “why x and not y, it is random/chaotic/absurd”