/lit/ - Literature

>>13628644
I know this is a troll thread but it's hilarious that pagans are now trying to claim Tolkien, who was so ultracatholic that he insisted on singing the Latin lyrics in mass after Vatican 2 even when everyone else was singing in English.

>>13628644
no, catholicism being filled with pagan lore and culture doesnt mean we are pagan, religion and culture are not the same thing, we still believe in catholic religious teachings and are a part of religious organization

>>13628644
The theology of his fantasy works ultimately sounds like a fantasy version of paganism subdued under Christianity.
Vargfag here is forgetting that Christian scholars, even devout Christian scholars, have had a pretty great track record of showing genuine interest for cultures that were antithetic to their own beliefs. Tolkien's fantasy work is derived from his work in linguistic and his interest for Finnish mythology.

>>13628668
even what we know of norse mythology was preserved by catholic enthusiasts

Ah yeah, as a modernist infested interwar ivy league university in fucking England certainly demanded its professors to be Roman Catholics...

>>13628644
>His books show where his heart was
His books that are thinly-veiled Christian allegory? Those books?

>>13628644
>he was Christian because he had to be! Pagan at heart!
despite the fact that he was roman catholic in early 20th century anglican england
it was probably easier to be pagan then and there than catholic

>>13628644
>“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion’, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” - Letter to his friend Robert Murray, S.J. (December 1953)

pagans btfo

Louis Cachet is a cuck.

Fucking larpers lmao

>>13628655
If that is true then why did all the greatest saints of the Church like Shenoute, St Basil, Cyril, Benedict of Nursia, Chryostom, Augustine and Ambrose all advocate and/or actively take part in the destruction of the classical world?

Are modern Christians that think they're compatible just not as authentically Christian as all the early Christians that tore down the shrines/temples, smashed all the idols and refused to copy the texts etc?

>>13628703
augustine, who was the student of ambrose included ancient philosophy into catholic world
they were basically making the move kaiba did at beginning of yugioh when he tore apart yugi's blue eyes and monopolized entire western civilization in the ultimate chad move

>>13628644
If he was "what everyone around him expected him to be" he'd be Anglican, not Catholic.

>>13628699
christcucks were reading all the correspondence at that time looking for wrongthink. He had no other choice but to mask his true beliefs even in his letters.

>>13628703
Answer is it's complicated. Go read Name of the Rose

Tolkien was such a Christianchad that he converted C.S. Lewis.

>>13628725
>That all superstition of pagans and heathens should be annihilated is what God wants, God commands, God proclaims!’ - St Augustine
>Writings such as Cicero's De re publica overwritten by Augustine's on Psalms.
>‘All the pagans were under the power of demons. Temples were built to demons, altars were set up to demons, priests ordained for the service of demons, sacrifices offered to demons, and ecstatic ravers were brought in as prophets for demons. - St Augustine
>Augustine evidently assumed his congregants would be taking part in the violence – and implied that they were right to do so: throwing down temples, idols and groves was, he said, no less than ‘clear proof of our not honouring, but rather abhorring, these things’ - St Augustine, Letter 47.
>In AD 401, Augustine told Christians in Carthage to smash pagan objects because, he said, that was what God wanted and commanded. It has been said that sixty died in riots inflamed by this burst of oratorical fire. - St Augustine, Sermon 24.6
>A little earlier a congregation of Augustine’s, eager to sack the temples of Carthage, had started reciting Psalm 83. ‘Let them be humiliated and be downcast forever,’ they chanted with grim significance. ‘Let them perish in disgrace.
>All temples, idols and shrines of Caelestis in Carthage destroyed and "No craftsman will ever again make the idols that Christ has smashed," gloated Augustine. "Consider what power this Caelestis used to enjoy here at Carthage. But where is the kingdom of this Caelestis now?"

>>13628644
British people weren't expected to be Catholics in the early 20th century.

>>13628740
Christians believe that people of any origin have a soul.

>>13628747
>All the pagans were under the power of demons. Temples were built to demons, altars were set up to demons, priests ordained for the service of demons, sacrifices offered to demons, and ecstatic ravers were brought in as prophets for demons
catholicism doesnt recognize existence of pagan gods, catholic church was quite fedora historically calling all such things superstition at best or like st augustine said that only thing these rituals can do is summon demons since actual pagan gods dont exist, its the only thing they can be and they were right - these temples were generally markets and whorehouses filled with degenerate rich kids
>Augustine evidently assumed his congregants would be taking part in the violence – and implied that they were right to do so: throwing down temples, idols and groves was, he said, no less than ‘clear proof of our not honouring, but rather abhorring, these things
yes, catholics shoahed the pagans religion and then took their culture as their own

its not my fault you guys were such losers and got rekt by us and now your entire civilization is ours lmfao

>>13628771
>catholicism doesnt recognize existence of pagan gods,
LOL catholicism is literally oriental paganism.

he was a very devout catholic- is this thread some sort of in-joke?

>>13628786
>he was a very devout catholic
Are you saying he was a pagan? Really?

>>13628736
I'd rather read original sources of church history. Such as when st Cyril conducted house to house searches trying to find haram pagan literature to burn.
>>13628771
>c-christianity and pagan lore/culture is not in opposition to each other
>yes they are and here is what all the early Christians thought about it
>not to mention that we live in the 21th century so we can actually look at what happened after the fact
>WE CHRISTIANS STRONK WE SMASH CULTURE AND ART

>>13628795
Based and romepilled

>>13628803
>romepilled
Why are you implying I have any link to this stinky oriental city?

>>13628686
did you honestly expect tolkien fans to figure that out?

I think something important to note is that The Lord of the Rings have a very Christian sense of morality, not a pagan one.
If Tolkien was such a pagan, why do his stories follow the Christain morality of staunch good and evil, rather than the more often moral gray, or perhaps more base and objective morality, of pagan belief?

>>13628785
yes, we do have superior culture, use fancy architecture, fancy stories and such, but we in fact are orthodox christians and dont actually believe in pagan gods as surprising as that may be to you
being a christian doesnt mean you have to be an iconoclastic philistine tard
sometimes i feel like contemporary western paganism is an offshoot of protestantism
>>13628786
its a memeworthy conversation referring to an idividual known as varg vikernes and his colourful alternative vision of reality

>>13628809
On the contrary, it means you know the truth about the gilded antichrist that thrones in the city of Nero and Diocletian

>>13628799
are you trying to equate destroying opposing pagan religious monuments and symbols of opression and genocide with vandalizing museums?

>>13628831
>we in fact are orthodox christians
So you are an orientalist pagan.
>protestantism
Protestantism is also orientalist paganist bullshit.

>>13628843
>symbols of opression
So it's true huh?

And yes, that is what I am equating and so will any thinking man.

>>13628835
>antichrist
Sorry, I don't speak middle-eastern, and I won't buy your stinky carpet.

Did Varg skip Joyce again?

>>13628853
>So it's true huh?
yup, when your people get genocided in slow and painful way for centuries in name of pagan gods it tends to be perceived rather poorly
>that is what I am equating
bolshevism is materialistic, it doesnt even recognize metaphysics as real and its artistic and cultural expression is completely different

>>13628831
>varg vikernes
This guy has literally no celtic blood, he is an oriental from the east, from Germany or some similar eastern foreign land.

>>13628864
overwhelming majority of us are aware of his retardation, but he is a fun person to talk about

>>13628868
>he is a fun person to talk about
not really. I wish people would stop giving this retard so much attention

>>13628874
maybe you are just a boring old man

>>13628868
Tolkien was also a retard: he was unable to write in any brittonic language, so he wrote his books in this shitty oriental romance-germanic creole called "english".

Why is every devout Varg fan a 500 IQ retard?

>>13628644
If the movie about him ignored his Catholicism, its pretty clear that Catholicism was a big part of his like and works

>>13628890
thats the iq it takes to larp as a pagan

>>13628654
Varg claims Catholics as 80% pagans and rightfully so.

>>13628905
You're not wrong.

>>13628934
If Catholics are fundamentally pagan why is Varg so butthurt about Olaf Tryggvason drowning all the Norwegian volvas and Charlemagne mass-converting the Saxons through forced baptisms?

>>13628973
because less pagan and virtues people, urbanites prevailed over the village pagans.

>>13628973
Varg just explained it

>>13628644
I can't imagine anyone being this retarded. His nonfiction books are so Christian, it's obvious this dude is just reading wiki articles and blog-posts.

>>13629043
>glass of water with 10% poison
Alcohol?

Reminder that this brainlet is turning kids into white supremacists

>*destroys every other religion*

>>13629076
based

>>13629092
lmao
i wonder whose belly is that

>>13629065
He is teetotal I believe.

>>13628934
Varg is an unbalanced murderer and arsonist.

>>13630185
based varg btfo papists and slavs with his internal logical consistency

This reads like some fedora's end reasoning:
>dude, christianity turns your mind into mush incapable of critical thinking or creativity
>therefore, anyone who was creative obviously wasn't a christian

>>13630194
> murderer
not inherently bad
> arsonist
not inherently bad

>>13630544
>not inherently bad
*ahem*

>>13628934
>If we claim everything as paganism then we win!

remember that varg is a criminal and as such should be ignored. a real man would've become politically engaged and changed norway from within, or become a revolutionary leader and brought down the government from without. varg ran away to the south of france with his rich wife and decided to live like peasants in the middle ages.

Varg is so fucking cringe

>>13630931
He did become politically engaged, you retard. It wasn't worthwhile.

>>13628644
He was a Catholic.

>>13630194
That's why I like him.

>>13628843
>symbols of opression


hahahhahahahahhahahahahah OH NO NO NO NO ON ON NO ONONON NO NONO NO hahahahahhahahahhaha

>40 something boomer LARPing on Twitter
and you guys respect him?

>>13631506
Because he doesn't understand his "opponents", just the inaccurate specters he manufactured

>>13628644
>everyone around him expected him to be...
anglican
He was catholic.
A "minority" in England, second class citizens untill not long before his birth.
Varg is a fucking double agentplaying divide et impera and You pagan shills must be dumber than bricks.

>>13628934
...just like his best friend, Luther, did!

>>13632087
His extended family outcast him and his mother for converting, and then later his wife's family too

>>13628654
That sounds like something a person LARPing as a Catholic would do.

>>13632112
too true

>>13632108
Exactly

>>13632112
Yes surely someone willing to be ostracized by most of his relatives to do What he believes is the right thing is a LARPER.

>>13632112
That would be the case if he were an American teenager circa 2008. Since he was a trained linguist his commitment to the sacred language of Mass makes sense.

>>13632187
>sacred language
The holy sacred translation into vulgar Latin, lol. You people are too much sometimes, really.

>>13628654

He was a linguist.

My low IQ take on Tolkien and christianity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_Zrccue0II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyYnBzZdb0I

>>13628644
>a CHAD pagan
HAHAHAHAHAHahhaah

What the fuck is "chad" in genuflections to idols made of wood and stone? Or in worshipping comic book super heroes? Perhaps its the exaltation of grimy pirates who pestered Christian monasteries a shit ton of years ago? Get a hold of yourself and tell your people to stop burning places of learning (churches, libraries, etc).

His philosophy of man's "sub-creative" power hinges on the idea of a single supreme God.

>>13628644
how in the FUCK would he know. He's a larping boomer hasbeen with a tired ideology.

>friend claims he's "highly intelligent, but lazy"
>keeps spamming Varg videos because "he's mostly right about everything"
>recently started unironically shilling Pewdiepie and Paul Joseph Watson because they are "redpilled on society"

>>13628934
Catholics literally made canon a fictional work, Dante's inferno.

>Chad pagan

>>13628644
Tolkien was very catholic, but it's clear he was sympathetic to pagans and very interested in all their stories.

>>13632418
>recently started unironically shilling Pewdiepie and Paul Joseph Watson because they are "redpilled on society"
what the fuck, man

>>13628885
He actually wanted people to read his books.

>>13628644
Fucking kek, what a fedorable loser.

>>13633366
Tolkien hated his own celtic blood. He was unable to speak any brittonic language. He had the mindset of a slave.

He was a Catholic linguist interested in Norse myths. You can't be both or what? Just because you're Catholic doesn't mean that you HAVE to be obsessed with Semitic languages. But he knew his Latin.

>>13633622
always a pleasure to read your rants brittonposter

>>13633643
>He was a linguist
LOL

>>13628644
He was a Catholic linguist interested in Norse myths. You can't be both or what? Just because you're Catholic doesn't mean that you HAVE to be obsessed with Semitic languages. But on the other hand he enjoyed a good ol' fashioned Latin Mass.

I love Varg but this is retarded. What if he was just a traditionalist and he thought of the myths of old with much respect AND didn't need to endlessly put it against christianity all the time?
I could just quote all of his Catholic notes but this won't do as they would all be refuted as "forced by his environment".

>>13633649
philologist if you will

>>13633656
>He was a linguist
LOL
Where are his books about linguistics then?

>>13633659
>What if he was just a traditionalist
LOL Tolkien was just a fantasy writer.
Nothing more.

>>13633665
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien#Languages_and_philology

>>13633661
LOL
Tolkien was just a fantasy writer.
And he wrote in english, because that's the only language he knew.

>>13632087
It's "weird" how people forgot how discriminated against Catholics were in Anglo countries.

>>13633680
Just like I said. He was an english teacher.
He wrote ZERO books about linguistics.

>>13633665
>every linguist publishes books

>>13633693
>>13633694

>>13628655
The real question is to define what pagan means. If pagan generally means "non abrahamic" then the point is stupid. But if pagan can include abrahamics as well, then the term is fucking useless.
The Catholic church was the first church and defined dogma. If it is pagan, then all of Christianity must be so as well

>>13633665
>>13633693
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien_bibliography

look at the Nonfiction section

>>13628934
It's the other way around. Pagans are 80% Catholic.

>>13633694
He was NO linguist.
He was an english teacher, who wrote some fantasy books about elves and other phony stuff.

>>13628747
Is Augustine's Confessions worth reading? I was gonna move onto it after I finished Plato

>>13628644
>muh Tolkien was just larping as a Christian
reminds of trump supporting wignats believing that trump is secretly an anti semite.

>>13633719
All phony stuff without any scientific value or impact.
LOL

>>13632418
This defines the alt right

>>13632232
>you people
You mean catholics? Because I'm not one, but nice try.
And yes the Roman Church rests on something of a dual authority it has sometimes troubles to acknowledge, just like its law is derived for Roman law and just like the language of its offices isn't the same as that of its scripture. But it doesn't matter where the Latin mass comes from, it's been the official language of liturgy for most of the Church's history, so it makes sense a man attached to language would make a point to keep his mass in Latin. Is it clear enough now or must I dumb it down even further?

>>13633747
nice of you to move the post's goals, now they have to be "impactful" when you said published first
LOL @ your life

>>13628644
Token literally subverted his religion and made it Christian now this fag is defending him. Proof again that pagan are proud cucks.

>>13633251
The inferno isn't canon, though it's influence has been officially recognized by the Holy See.

>>13633747
>moving the goalposts
at least you admit you got btfo'd

>>13633765
What he wrote about linguistics has literally no value. His book about Welsh and English is so embarrassing... Tolkien was unable to speak welsh, but he wrote about it, like a dumb little english teacher. LOL

>>13633765
Tolkien was an english teacher who wrote some books about elves and faeries. He was no linguist. He hated his own brittonic ancestors. He was totally unable to speak welsh, breton or cornish. Period. LOL

>>13633805
Do books about linguistics have any real value or impact in the world, though? I don't think so. He wrote some things about it, some care, some don't, so what's the issue here exactly?

>>13633820
>He hated his own brittonic ancestors
Being honest, I'd hate them too if it meant being an obnoxious faggot like you LMAO

>>13633836
>Do books about linguistics have any real value or impact in the world, though?
Tell that to the Britons who actually care about their native culture. Do you really think that the modern brittonic languages don't need linguistics to survive? Tolkien hated his ancestors and their brittonic culture, but all british people aren't traitors like him.

>>13633841
>I'd hate them too
Diskouezit 'ta pegement a garantez ho peus evito... N'eo ket diaes, n'ho peus ken 'met skrivañ un dra bennak en ur yezh predenek, ha gwelet 'vo.

>>13633888
fuck off with your dying meme cave tongue LMAO

>>13633888
Google Translate detects it as Catalan HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA that's how irrelevant your language is

>>13633894
>dying
We are 200000 breton speakers in 2019
East-Brittonic is already dead.
You already are the loser of History here.
Keep speaking this french sub-dialect you call "english", Pierre!

>>13633919
>Pierre!
OHNONNONONONONONNO

>>13633927
The Breton language came from Britain you stupid moron. It's a brittonic language, like Welsh or Cornish.

>>13633934
cope

>>13633940
>cope
Why?
Breton is not dead, like East-Brittonic.
And Breton is not a french sub-dialect, like the "english" language.

>>13628655
>religion and culture are not the same thing
Three digits IQ take here.
Do larpagans think that, say, Botticelli wasn't Christian because he painted a few Aphrodites?

Now that I think of it, how is it always snowniggers being larpagans and never med bvlls? Protestantism? Metal/edgy music scene?

>>13633940
>cope
How do you say "cope" (OF coper, colper) in english, Pierre?
Are you a french supremacist or what?

>>13633970
>Are you a french supremacist or what?
As a matter of fact I am, so what are you going to do about it, sheepfucker?

Neo-Paganismis ridiculous , how the fuck could such a conservative who lived in rural England author be unidentified with such a late 20th century larping trend.

In his letters he even worries that his children are not Catholic enough, he was an ultra fundie.

>>13633958
>hates English
>uses it

>>13633984
I'll just keep watching you spraying your butthurt all over the place, Pierre.

>>13634000
>hates English
???

>>13633985
>Tolkien
>conservative
LOL

>>13628735
that's the exact same argument i used to explain why Tolkien was secretly intending Jews=Dwarves=Orcs, because the london jews would have had him killed if he had been more explicit.
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/23165508/#23165508

>>13634001
Do what you want, Yann.

>>13632187
>circa 2008

>>13634070
You won't do what you can't, Pierre, even if you want it, because it's too late for you.
LOL

>>13634088
I'm an ESL, though, but whatever. I'm sad to see languages dying and/or endangered, don't get me wrong.

>>13628885

MAE HEN WLAD FY NHADAU

Dw i ddim yn hoffi chwarae sboncen

>>13634152
>>13634240
is this an actual language?

>>13634250
It's Welsh.

>>13634250
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language

>>13634274
is that the same language Enya likes to sing in? looks cool, either way

>>13634250

>Not only can he not speak a Brittonic language, he can't even recognise one

You're the linguistic equivalent of lacking a vital sense

>>13634286

This has to be a troll

>>13634286
Enya sing in Irish Gaelic, in English, in Spanish, in Latin, and in Quenya, a language created by Tolkien.
Welsh is a celtic language, like Irish Gaelic, but Welsh is a brittonic language, and Irish Gaelic is a gaelic language.

>>13634305
>You're the linguistic equivalent of lacking a vital sense
I suppose this is considered a grave insult among your fellow ethnics? It just looked like a conlang to me, lad.

>>13634320
Any literature of worth in any of those or is it mere farmertalk?

>>13634341

No, there's no literature in Irish, English, Latin, Spanish or Welsh

>>13634355
I meant the minor ones, Irish Gaelic and Welsh.

>>13634341
>in any of those
Like english literature?

>>13633674
Literally false. You seem not to know much about his life and body of work.

>>13634359
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_literature_in_Irish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh-language_literature

>>13633692
The story about Anglos/Jews nuking the Catholic centrals in Japan can only take attention from the Shoah, so it cannot be given attention to! Just imagine if people were to equate their own group's suffering with things they must learn from!

>>13634312
get over yourself

>>13634374
I don't care about the life of British writers who don't write in any brittonic language, because traitors deserve nothing.

>>13634359

Can't speak for Irish but yes for Welsh. Read the Mabinogion

>makes a children's book out of funny names and stories from the mythological texts he and his colleagues translated and studied
>he was totally a pagan and believed in thor
hello?

>>13634398
And you said you didn't hate English, just imagine if you hated it kek

>>13634398

>He can't speak the tongue of the Beaker Folk, despite having more of their DNA than Celtic DNA

LMAO

>>13634409
will check it out

>>13634417
I don't care about english, the english language is just an empty shell. Guillaume de Normandie destroyed it long ago.

>>13634433
And Dr Ben Johnson put the final nail.

>>13634425
This is good too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywarch_Hen

>>13634424
>having more of their DNA than Celtic DNA
LOL

>>13634458

The Celts only contributed about 5% of the modern British genome, we're mostly a mix of Beaker Folk and Anglo-Saxon, in fact the Welsh don't have much less Anglo-Saxon DNA than the English

>>13634425
not that guy, but there's a story in the Mabinogion that's probably my favorite European legend, Gereint son of Erbin.

>>13634474
Bullshit. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
Also, I'm Breton, and we have NO germanic admixture, because we beated the Franks at war, two times.

>>13634489

>He thinks haplogroups mean anything

You are either a troll or a fully deluded Celtic nationalist

>>13634489

Why can't you lot make your own national anthem btw? Why did you have to rip off Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau? Not creative enough?

>>13634493
>Single-nucleotide polymorphism
>haplogroups
Read the study, it's NOT based on haplogroups.
https://abp.bzh/pdfs/4/48491-geneticsoffrance.pdf

>>13634495
Say that to the "English", their native brittonic language IS dead, not mine.

>>13634506

Diolch yn fawr

>>13634398
Okay but first of all 1) you wrote this sentence in English; why? for me and other people here to be able to understand it; this is the same reason why Tolkien did so as well; 2) if you have no knowledge on the topic due to not caring, then don't spout statements about them as they might come out incorrect

That being said, yeah fuck Engl*sh. By far one of the worst European languages AND the angl*s are scum.
t. English philology major

>>13634513

Speak to me in Breton, I want to see how much I can understand

>>13634433
a language you're forced against your will to speak in order to communicate globally. go eat some more cowshit.

>>13634522
Mar karit. N'ouzon ket gwall vat petra a fell doc'h ober... klask hennadiñ gerioù 'zo a vefe heñvel ouzh gerioù romanek anavezet ganeoc'h, moarvat...

>>13634538
Say that to the "English", they have lost their native brittonic language, not me.

>>13628644
Varg sounds like he's becoming deranged. Is he okay?

>>13634557

Ok it doesn't look as much like Welsh as I was expecting. Interestingly Cornish to me looks similar in terms of spelling conventions to Breton, almost like Welsh with Breton orthography

Varg is right. Even Zizek pointed this out.

>So is not Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings the ultimate proof of this paradox? Only a devout Christian, which Tolkien was, could
have imagined such magnificent pagan universe, thereby confirming that paganism is the ultimate Christian dream.

>>13628644
>Is Varg right
No

>>13628644
It was the 20th century not the 12th, no one gave a shit if someone was being a fedora lord.

>>13635920
Men are cannon fodder regardless of the religion. Its biology based.
What a pleb this varg.

>>13628644
>Is Varg right?
No, he deleted that thread after getting #btfo by catholics and orthodox who actually know history.
He's trying to force the meme again though, not working, sad.

>>13636893
>Varg is right because [marxist interpretation of Christianity]
kek ok

>Only a devout Christian, which tolkien was....
That's not in agreement with Varg, who thinks Tolkien was a crypto-pagan forced to pretend to be a catholic in anglo-protestant England, lmao

>>13628644
>his true love for his folk
the AIDs is just dripping off of this post

>>13634040
Tolkien's answer to the Nazis asking him if he had Jewish ancestry speaks for itself.

>>13634076
Is it not the proper phrasing? I'm not native.

bump