/lit/ - Literature

>>13548963
no, if you read the fucking book and think that it’s condoning pedophilia you’re a brainlet

>>13548963
You actually have to be braindead to think it's condoning pedophilia. It was written in a time when art didn't have the sole objektive of ideological indoctrination.

>>13548971
Explain. The book glorifies Humbert's pursuit.

>>13548963
It’s not condoning pedophilia. Also, the age of consent for thousand of years of human history was roughly 12-13 years old- only in the last 100 years has the law raised it to 16, then 18. Hell, you can be a man in your late 20s today, dating a 19-20 year old, and people will call you a “pedophile.”

>>13548963
>administrative leave with pay
So she got to get paid to do nothing? Based.

Pedophilia is the new "racist" everyone finds attractive things attractive, regardless of age.

>>13548995
Yes like American Psycho glorifies Patrick Bateman's pursuit

>>13548995
He glorifies his own pursuit as the narrator desu. Only a brainlet wouldn't understand that Humbert is an unreliable narrator.

>>13549030
Change glorifies to romanticizes and this is an unironic post

>>13549059
That's a very masturbatory romance.
>>13548963
Fight to get a competent English prof

>>13548963
>not mature enough to teach Lolita at a college level

She's not fit for her job then. You have to be a stronger person if you want to teach uni.

>>13548995
>glorifies

You didn't read it, did you. The book's argument is that girls don't know what the hell they want

>>13548963
I want to have disgusting, debauched, and depraved sex with your dimwitted alcoholic professor.

>>13549059
I found it very shallow and pedantic

Art is not inherently political. The best art isn't. Explain this to your professor.

>>13549284
>t. cowardly centrist

>>13548963
well, ...it's easy. the people who think tv/movies/video games cause violence think this book will cause pedophilia.

Lolita masquerades as not promoting pedophilia by showing Humbert as weird/ insane but the actual author's opinion is probably secretly that pedophilia is natural. It was written to be interpreted either way for that purpose.

Nobakov almost certain had attraction to young girls just like Thomas Mann was attracted to young boys. Intelligent people seem to always be willing to push boundaries regarding their pleasures.

>>13549471
His argument is that the highway system makes it easier for pedos to escape. Wtf did you think the road trips were for?

>>13548963
Your professor was an immature moron.

>>13549481
Trains were a boon to serial killers desu

>>13549284
Jesus christ if I was ever such a brainlet I'd want someone to kill me.

All art is political. Everything is political.

>>13548963
>a lustful [...] nymphet
they got gaslit by Humbert

>>13549481
That's not much of a premise to write a book about.

>>13549504
Until we tore them up because highways are forever lol. The lack of police cooperation combined with those two major communications led to definite spikes in serial killers' activity. The mail service and newspapers being invented had smaller similar spikes, but highways in particular make their surrounding populations particularly vulnerable.

>>13549534
It took the FBI and US police departments longer than the Zodiac killer to work out that it was the best focus of tracking serial killers and to decide to cooperate on a database. It's pretty prescient it only took Nabokov one abduction to work it out.

>>13549284
Things do not have a say in whether or not they are political. Thugs become politicalnif they become relevant to a political discourse, which most things do

Something truly un political is either just profoundly centrist or as yet simply unaconowledged

>>13549513
Sure it is, kiddo. Never mind the definition of political.

>>13549978
The definition of political involves the relevance of public affairs- if art is part of a public discussion it’s part of public affairs
See>>13549947
And stay retarded

>>13550026
Things don't cease to be art without an audience.

>>13550037
What in God’s crotch are you even trying to say here? Who said anything about art ceasing to be art?

>>13550050
Your mother

>>13550059
Thanks for taking my advice and staying absolutely retarded

>>13549947
>>13550026
I suppose that what anon was trying to say is that art is good when the creator doesn't have a political agenda to promote in mind while creating it.
And that art can be understood and appreciated even though you personally don't agree with it's moral/political implications.

>>13550066
But the qualification as political is a posteriori designation
As much as I’d like to cite all the hack pieces of propaganda that masquerade as art to say “art is best when it’s not political” it’s a mistaken statement
Whether or not something ends up political is not a statement on the thing but on the state of politics.
Trying to remove the politics from art is a pointless cause- politics is inherent in everything that can be spoken of or understood.
What makes the best art the best is a convo for another thread but I can assure you the best art has a place in political discourse

>>13548963
>she
truly the jew of genders

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Casanova#Relationships
In 1774, when he was almost fifty, Casanova encountered in Trieste a former lover, the actress Irene, now accompanied by her nine-year-old daughter. "A few days later she came, with her daughter, who pleased me (qui me plut) and who did not reject my caresses. One fine day, she met with Baron Pittoni, who loved little girls as much as I did (aimant autant que moi les petites filles), and took a liking to Irene’s girl, and asked the mother to do him the same honor some time that she had done to me. I encouraged her to receive the offer, and the baron fell in love. This was lucky for Irene." (XII, 238).

>>13550085
>politics is inherent in everything that can be spoken of or understood
But if you take it to this level, even the way i take a shit can be "political".

>>13549265
hm, yes. Shallow and pedantic

>>13550085
There is no such thing as political discourse. Politics is the management of a state. It is either being managed or not. Everything else is a circus. I know the pretty colors and bright lights are exciting but you should try to focus on reality.

>>13550144
Now you’re getting it
>>13550165
But you’re completely fucking lost
The government is run by people, no?
And people are fallible and subject to outside influences, no?
Then why would one not talk about the exterior to the operations of politics as somewhat relevant to politics?

>>13549513
>Everything is political
"My creepy politics know no bounds."

Get away from me, totalitarian nut.

>>13550165
>Politics is the management of a state
You can make a work of art that has a message that will promote certain political views and influence the elections, thus changing how the state is managed.

______________________________________________________
^ Nabbed Line ^
Everyone above this line has been Nabbed On.

>>13550165
>no such thing as political discourse
>people don’t think about or discuss things in politics they just self actualize and happen
Pls dear god tell me you’re not this stupid

>>13548963
That's a retarded opinion, read the book.
On top of that, even if it did subtly argue that, it's a retarded argument and insanely easy to dismantle. Killing others is a natural but not okay.

>>13548963
its ok but read pic related its better

>>13549253
and its 100% correct t. talked to multiple 16 year old girls in my life

>>13548963
Well what are the standards for condoning something?

If a story features a character who engages in illicit activity does it condone it if the character is punished? Does it matter how he is punished? What if he really really likes it before he is punished, is that condoning it?
This question can’t be answered without first addressing this issue

>>13548963
I'd make her come again and again and again if you know what I'm saying. I'm a lolicon personally.

>>13550448
Aside from the physically revolting act of lusting over a child, pedophilia is truly disgusting in its solipsism
In few other sexual fantasies does the autonomy of the object of love become so thoroughly disregarded- even in an BDSM relationship the pained/submissive/obedient character of the object is essential or at least an aspect of the mindset. For a pedophile, projection of the subjects own subconscious inconsistencies must be placed upon the object to the point of making the object nothing but a murky mirror of the subject.
Tl;dr kys

>>13550473
christ, you never had a crush on neighbors girl when you were twelve?

>>13550503
I would have also been a child then, no?

>>13550546
yes

>>13550550
So I would consequently not be imposing any of my subjectivesexual attributes onto the other child because we would both be sexually naive, no?

>>13550598
yes, but what if an adult is sexually naive too?

>>13550473
It's not solipsism. It's possible to love little girls with mutualness. It's not revolting it's natural.

>>13549332
>t. braindead black and white thinker

>>13549351
Nobody actually thinks these media cause violence, they just want to be outraged cause it makes them feel good.

>>13550705
That would require such outrageous and specific circumstances that would come with their own game changing side effects (chemical castration, complete isolation, etc.) that even if it was “ok” it would be horrendous for other reasons- not to mention it’s an exception to the rule and is ultimately a moot point
>>13550742
>not reading the tl;dr
Try again

>>13550764
I'm not killing myself because some normalfag homo on /lit/ tells me to

>>13550764
Its not impossible or improbable, there are many adults (especially nowadays) who have been sheltered their whole lives and who are juvenile and sexually naive when it comes to relationships.
If an adult is psychologically tested and certified to be sexually naive and juvenile then I see no problem him or her having consensual relationship with a child or a teen (as children can have relationships with each other)

>it would be horrendous for other reasons
can you specify?

>>13550777
>not wanting to rape a toddler makes you a nomrlfag
I can guarantee you most members of any decent society around the world would be inclined to agree with my recomendation

>>13550802
what if she consents tho

I don't know and don't care if it condones pedophelia, the 90s movie adaptation was pretty hot.

>>13550791
Being naive in terms of relationships is not being sexually naive like a child, thats just being a fucking loner- ironically these are some of the most sexually solipsistic people because of this “stunting” which, again, is not the same as being truly naive in the way a child is
Sex is almost everywhere- especially in this modern world, not to mention it will literally self actualize in a human who reaches puberty, hence why I mention chemical castration (just so you don’t have to ask, this means a fifteen year old just learning about sex would be imposing themselves on another assuming the other was too young to have reached this point of biological development)

>other side effects
Use you imagination?
Sending even a “sexually naive” person in the pseudo naive state you’re talking about comes with potential consequences (just ask the incels on 4chn how fun and easy dating is) imagine someone was kept in a ducking Skinner box their whole life- they did be like one of those kids raised by animals who never learn to talknor walk upright

>>13550805
>a toddler can understand consent
Hey there’s that repugnant and rapacious solipsism I was talking about, right on cue!

Also i know you’re b8ing but sick fucks unironically think like this a lurk here and they need to know how ready everyone else is to castrate and hang them as soon as they make themselves known to exist

>>13550473
You are on the right track. Allow me to repost what I said elsewhere:
You see, lolicon is a fetish that arises in a man who is incapable of feeling pleasure from ejaculation, is unhappy about his own male body which he perceives as filthy and in a desperate bid for some level of independence wants to separate himself from his mother. In order to do this last thing he goes for a loli, one old enough to have had her first menstruation, and having sex with her is in fact a sort of metaphor for him having sex with himself (an alternate version of himself that is growing into a clean female body) in order to functionally give birth to another version of himself, the 'true' self, free of all the anxiety and weakness his current self must suffer.

>>13550838
FUCK you normalfag redditor. Loli is justice.

fuck lolis

cute & funny

>>13550829
>Being naive in terms of relationships is not being sexually naive like a child, thats just being a fucking loner- ironically these are some of the most sexually solipsistic people because of this “stunting” which, again, is not the same as being truly naive in the way a child is
>Sex is almost everywhere- especially in this modern world, not to mention it will literally self actualize in a human who reaches puberty,
Naivety is relative, a child might be naive or he or she might not be, it should be judged on individual basis

>a fifteen year old just learning about sex
what about a 15 yo imposing him/her self on a biologically developed 16 yo who is also just learning about sex?

>>13550912
If sexual naiveity cannot be adequately determined if someone is sexually naive; a child cannot consent because they have no implications of what consent might mean
I’m not using this to justify the opposite- to imply that all adults have some heightened awareness of sex. Adults MAY be naive, but children ARE naive- what more they are literally legally wards of someone else, letting them consent is just bad legal practice desu

>the second thing
That’s fine as I’ve already implied- naiveity is not the problem in itself it’s the imposition of someone non naive on someone naive- to do so requires a sort of “positive statement about the noumena” type thing that is inherently solipsistic and predatory since it ultimately amounts to one person sexual gratification

>>13550951
That first “if” in this post is a typo, not supposed to be there, my bad

>>13548963
>Amerimutt obscurantism
Yeah, nothing new under the sun

>>13548963
Let’s just admit for a moment that it does, or some people could misinterpret it as such.
If you censor a book(provided that censorship is effective), you prevent its diffusion, not the idea behind it, so probably some fag in the future will figure out a similar thing on his own.
Instead, do like based medieval monks, who copied and diffused pagan texts after adding glossae and scholii to them to explain why something is fake and gay
Or maybe they can’t argument that?

>>13548995
>work features x
>therefore work glorifies x
this is your brain on post-modernism

>>13550951
>naiveity is not the problem in itself it’s the imposition of someone non naive on someone naive-
what about a younger possibly below legal age person sexually imposing on an older (of legal age) somewhat more naive person?

>>13549253
that's too heavy a redpill to drop on college kids

>>13551014
>Instead, do like based medieval monks, who copied and diffused pagan texts after adding glossae and scholii to them
>to explain why something is fake and gay
you mean like bible and appropriated pagan culture and traditions which were then made it into christian traditions?

>>13550764

As someone who works with the developmentally disabled, it is just as wrong to exploit an adult with the mental faculties of a child as it is a child. The argument about pedophilia being wrong cannot stem from biological preparedness/maturity (I've seen 13 year olds that look 18) but because they are intellectually unable to provide informed consent.

>>13551045
>they are intellectually unable to provide informed consent.
in that case they shouldnt be allowed to have sex until they are 35 years old or older

>>13551025
As I’ve already stated, the “naivety” of the older person is a pseudonaivety (read my posts if this confuses you, I’m at freaking work) so why you’re describing is a naive person imposing themselves on a pseudonaive person
1.) they wouldn’t even know how to do this so it could only ever be a posturing at sexual imposition improperly understood
2.) the pseudo naive (assuming they were also a pervert) would react to these advances in a way that quickly inverted the imposition making the pseudo naive revert to the “teacher” by sheer don’t of their small surplus of experience or knowledge

>>13551045
Intellectual impairment is a biological circumstance breh

>>13551063
I am talking specifically about a younger 14-15 year old imposing themselves on a 16-17 year old person who is naive (its quite possible that at this age there are still naive people). One is of legal age, the other is not.

>>13551070
Discimination based on intellectual impairment (due to young age) is bad. I dont discriminate.

>>13551086
My response wouldn’t change. The older person, although only slightly, is less naive than the younger. The event would unfold (IMO) as I’ve describes

Although I’d be understanding enough to see how this was more of a “bad thing to do” than a “vile act of indecency” because they would be so close- but then that’s just another deflection
When we’re taking oedophilia as a principle rebellion talking sexually developed adults with naive children- all this now is just hairsplitting and tacitly accepting the truth of my initial claim

>>13551093
Then that’s fucked up?
Are you really acknowledging you’d like to fuck someone simpler than you knowing that they could potentially not comprehend consent because of their impairment
Honestly revolted rn desu

>>13551105
>The older person, although only slightly, is less naive than the younger
Age difference of two years is not that great, its entirely possible that the younger person can be more mature and less naive than the older one.

>>13551044
refute what you can, take what you cannot

>>13551137
Maybe but I’d doubt it just based off of oceans razor type reasoning

>>13551152
>oceans razor
Jesus Christ- you know what I mean though I hope

>>13551133
>someone simpler than you
yes, most people are, at least the ones I meet in real life (I know /lit/ has iq of at least 150 and intellectual/emotional development of a 70 year old)
So why should I not gain maximum benefit for myself from a situation, and instead do "good" for others? In all honesty I think good deal is when both sides benefit? so I get sex and a (young) woman gets security, money, affection, maybe even love.

>>13551191
>the solipsism has returned!
Just as vile as it always is
Only the sick pervert I’ve been describing this whole time could see their imposition on a naive child as beneficial for the child who cannot even process the extent of what you’re saying
again, kys

>>13550248
BASED

>>13551235
>sick pervert, a sick murderer, sick thief, sick adulterer, sick drug dealer, sick profiteer, sick warmonger
Its use or be used, Id rather live a nice comfy life but the world is out there and its sick and vile.
You seem nice enough, do people take advantage of you often?

>>13551266
>I may be stupid but at least I’ve got my edge!
Nothing like a 14-year-old soft kid advocating black-and-white jungle morality on an anime forum

>>13551305
>14-year-old soft kid
thanks, I can finally have sex with girls my age...

>>13551328
Not after all that loli hentai, you pseudo-naive

>>13551337
that wasnt me though, not interested in hentai, 3d>2d

>>13549253
Holy shit!

>>13548995
The nigga is a sociopath who at leasts openly considers killing his stepdaughters mother so he can sex her more

>>13548995
>i love her so much
>everything else in the book very clearly shows the opposite
Wow i guess he really really loves her :)

>>13551918
>sociopath who at leasts openly considers killing his stepdaughters mother
I dont remember, did he say it out loud or just thought about it?

why does no one ever mention how the book is funny as fuck

If i see any of you reading this book in public ill beat you up.
Pedo scum

>>13551023
actually, that argument is actually one that pomos consider fallacious

>>13553920
TF even is postmodernism? I mean hell half of its thinkers contradict the others and yet still somehow makes a sliver of sense. its truly remarkable!

>>13548963
>So does this or does this not condone pedophilia?
I don't know but I got a boner at the scenes were he talks about laying in bed with her after sex and she is crying

>>13553978
seek help

>>13552959
If I remember right he wrote about it in his diary in the book, then the mother discovers it along with his writing about wanting to fuck the kid, she storms out of the house and is then hit by a car.

>>13548995
of course it glorified humbert's pursuit - humbert's telling the story. but you know it's seedy, humbert makes no attempt to diminish that lolita is a little girl, in fact thats the quality that gets him off. the shocking thing is that you, the reader, keeps reading and it put you in the strange position where you become complicit in humbert's pedophilia. The book is supposed to strike an ethical response in the reader, rather than just reading to be satisfied, one reads for pleasure - and lolita illustrates the difference - and then highlights the ethical problems associated with pleasure. but everyone freaks out over anything that looks close to a monster that they close their eyes to it, instead of confronting it. this is the postmodern condition - the constant conflation of satisfaction with pleasure.

>>13554173
that's retartet anon. pleasure ends when youre satisfied. gtfo

>>13548963
The book does not condone pedophilia. The two movies about it are full of underage foot fetish and sexualization though.

>>13549284
have you read anything other than very hungry hungry caterpillar ever

>>13548963
some natural things are bad.
>>13548971
this

>>13550899
What the fuck

>>13548963
>it is natural and therefore okay.
It is natural (in the sense that pedophiles are born with pedophilia), but it does not follow that it's okay.

>>13548963
The book, or this new thing the article is talking about? I think Lolita probably accurately depicts how grooming happens, and romanticizes it at least in the aspect of Lolita herself. She's a stereotype of the precocious girl who acts like an adult and seems to demonstrate a reasonable attitude about her responsibiltiy for everything that happens. On the other hand the story wouldn't have worked had she been written any other way, because we only know her through the perspective of Humbert. Nabokov mostly refrains from pornographic lechery.

>>13548963
No, Humbert admits directly in the begining that he is wrong, not to mention it begins in a courtroom. Clearly demonstrates that it is not okay to bang kids.

>>13553966
Nobody who says this shit can even name more than like three of those "thinkers" without googling them and has certainly never read a single one

>>13555471
It's not okay to kidnap them into a life of living in a car and bang them out of pure lust with no regard for them as a person

https://vocaroo.com/i/s00ZjHzRPJ2K

>>13548963
>She
It is baffling to me that women are allowed to become professors....just what do they even do?

>>13548996
>only in the last 100 years has the law raised it to 16, then 18
Why has that been done?

>>13556366

holy kek

daily reminder 12-13 year old girls are already horny as fuck and usually have had some sort of sexual experience. additionally they regularly fantasize about older men.

t. worked with and been around adolescent girls

Anyone feel like attraction to cunny is a result of porn sensitisation?

>>13556463
of course it is

>>13551045
What if it's a really intelligent loli then?

>>13556366
t. Highest Observable IQ ITT

>>13555175
>born with paedophilia
that's equally as stupid as saying people are born gay, no man properly raised is attracted sexually to prepubescent children or men.

>>13556395
tl;dr it's easy to have the age of consent be 12-14 in self regulating medieval societies, it's less easy in victorian london (or any other large city of the late 1800s)
it's due to a combination of shifting attitudes towards state involvement in relationships as well as a concern over the well-being of children in a more modern society, around the same time this was going on there were discussions in parliament over rape between married couples with a common defence being that the state should have no involvement in the matters of the bedroom between consenting adults (consenting in the sense that wives consented to be married and could divorce over abuse/rape) which should set the scene, and the concern of children being that pure/virgin girls usually under the age of 16 were being lured to the cities or even sold to brothels often unwillingly and would be drugged or outright raped, once in such a situation they would have little means to escape as the alternatives would be homelessness (if sold into it) or face the prospects of returning home no longer a virgin
if you want a reading suggestion then 'the maiden tribute' newspaper articles are responsible for raising the age of consent in the uk from 12-13 to 16, and if the idea of people not caring about blatant rape or abuse seems foreign to you then consider that modern pedo gangs operate under the same principles: the police and state rarely care about the safety of the most vulnerable in society unless held accountable

>>13556463
You mean desensitization? If so, yes.

I started watching traps and then gay porn because I got bored of vanilla straight porn. I never would have thought myself as gay, I still don't cause I'm not attracted to men and I can only really watch the most feminized guys.

>>13556366
https://vocaroo.com/i/s1ZshNIvfbo3

>>13556783
Did you just make this?

>>13550401

I. Fucking. Hate. This. Book.
Unlike Lolita (which is amazing), this one lacks nuance and straight up casts the protag's relationship with an older man in a completely positive light, while the one character who questions it (the aunt) is basically the book's only one dimensional villain. When you read the Author's Note at the end it all starts to make sense. The author said she had a relationship with an older man when she was a young teen and that it was a positive influence for her, so she set out to write a book about that. The problem is, she was so gung ho about preaching about how a relationship between a man and a child can be a good thing in the right circumstances, sometimes, that she never even acknowledges how fucked up that situation truly is.

The subject matter had such potential, but the characters were so one dimensional that they could not do it justice.

>>13556366
>>13556783
Highest-quality posts ITT.

>>13548995
If you think it glorifies Humbert you weren't paying attention

>>13550050
>Art trascends the need for an audience to be defined as such.
>Yet politics is a cathegory that covers the public discusion.
>Without audience, there's no public discusion.
>Ergo art can be apolitical desu.

>>13556366

funniest thing on /lit/ in years

>>13556783

seething jealous new jersey guido vocaroo poster (please also keep posting)

why do cunny thread always attract all the patricians?

>>13553742

extremely erudite book too. get an annotated copy

Lolita is a very well-done book. disturbing and intense in the soaring of its prose. some passages were so well written I put the book down and simply laughed with amazement. The scene where Humbert goes to the shack where she is then living and where Dolores calls him "baby" is deeply moving on the level of Hellenic tragedy. Also the final murder scene with Quilty is simply phantasmagorical. one of my favorite books.

>>13556783
Are you that anon who made the tf2 one the other day?

>>13556480
Ah, those guys?

Ever since I met her I've been tortured. I didn't think this would happen to me. I'm not the least bit ashamed.

>>13556783
based

>>13556807
>author said she had a relationship with an older man when she was a young teen and that it was a positive influence for her, so she set out to write a book about that.
I see nothing wrong with any of that

>>13556366

I INSTANTLY knew what this was going to be.