/lit/ - Literature

>>13404202
Spiritual understanding has two complementary aspects, faith and knowledge. The only real issue is which comes first, as you’ll eventually need both. That is, to the extent that faith is true, it entails knowledge, and to the extent that someone who is rational must believe in that which one knows to be true, knowledge entails belief. [...] Many atheists will tell you that there is “no logical or scientific reason” to believe in the existence of God, but they are mistaken. So the first thing you must do in your search for God is to disregard their opinions, which are in any case devoid of logical support. Remember, the vaunted correlation between atheism and IQ peters out above the “danger zone”, where a danger-zone intellect is one that is sharp enough to be dangerous to ordinary people, but too dull to recognize and acknowledge its own limitations.

>The Leibnizian Cosmological Argument
1. Every contingent fact has an explanation.
2. There is a contingent fact that includes all other contingent facts.
3. Therefore, there is an explanation of this fact.
4. This explanation must involve a necessary being.
5. This necessary being is God.
>The Kalam Cosmological Argument
1.0. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.0. The universe began to exist.
2.11. An actual infinite cannot exist.
2.12. An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
2.13. Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.
2.21. A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
2.22. The temporal series of events is a collection formed by successive addition.
2.23. Therefore, the temporal series of events cannot be an actual infinite.
3.0. Therefore, the universe has a cause.
>The Argument from Consciousness
1. Mental events are genuine nonphysical mental entities that exist.
2. Specific mental and physical event types are regularly correlated.
3. There is an explanation for these correlations.
4. Personal explanation is different from natural scientific explanation.
5. The explanation for these correlations is either a personal or natural scientific explanation.
6. The explanation is not a natural scientific one.
7. Therefore, the explanation is a personal one.
8. If the explanation is personal, then it is theistic.
9. Therefore, the explanation is theistic.

1/4

>>13404270
>The Argument from Reason
1. Either at least some of the fundamental causes of the universes are more like a mind than anything else, or they are not.
2. If they are not, then it is either impossible or extremely improbable that reason should emerge.
3. All things being equal, worldviews that render it impossible or extremely improbable that reason should emerge should be rejected in favor of worldviews according to which it is not impossible and not improbable that reason should emerge.
4. Therefore, we have a good reason to reject all worldviews that reject the claim that the fundamental causes of the universe are more like a mind than anything else.
>The Ontological Argument
1. It is possible that the greatest conceivable being exists.
2. The greatest conceivable being is unlimited.
3. Everything that is unlimited is so if and only if it does not depend on anything else for its existence or nonexistence and it neither just happens to exist nor just happens not to exist.
4. Everything that does not depend on anything else for its existence or nonexistence is such if and only if no other being causes it to begin to exist and no other being causes it to cease to exist.
5. Anything that begins to exist is caused to begin to exist by some other being, or it just happens to begin to exist.
6. Anything that ceases to exist is caused to cease to exist by some other being, or it just happens to cease to exist.
7. Anything that neither begins nor ceases to exist exists necessarily if it exists at all, and fails to exist necessarily if it exists at all.
8. The greatest conceivable being exists.
>The Moral Argument
1. If EN [Evolutionary Naturalism] is true, then human morality is a by-product of natural selection.
2. If human morality is a by-product of natural selection, then there are no objective moral facts.
3. There are objective moral facts.
4. Therefore, EN is false.
>The Teleological Argument from Fine-tuning
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.

2/4

>>13404276
>Gödel's Ontological Argument

3/4

>>13404279
>The Modal Perfection Argument

4/4

>>13404202
Read the book incel

Jesus said no one see me unless the father reveals me to them, and likewise he says no one can come to the father except through Him. You can't believe in something that is impossible like God becoming a man logically, there's no system of logic to ease you into Christianity, this is understandably difficult bordering on despairing for people naturally, but Jesus says come to me all who are burdened and heavy laden, for I am meek and gentle of heart and you will find test for your soul, he doesn't appear concerned about how you come to believe on Him, only that you understand and trust him, like riding a bike he says pick up your cross and follow me, does a good father if his child ask for bread receive a stone? Knock and the door shall be opened unto you seek and you shall find


Cs Lewis mere Christianity is a good place to begin, but the gospels are what you are to search for truth in, if his has revealed himself then he truly wants you to find Him, go down that rabbit hole anon, it truly has changed my life into something bearable and I wish everyone on here could experience it for themselves

>>13406005
Rest not test

>>13406005
I guess he hasn't been revealed to me for a reason
Hell for eternity it is

>>13406005

This made me smile to read ! You're completely right in this post anon, God opens the heart's of those who seek Him with sincerity and humility. Logic cannot wholly grasp it, but by frequent prayer and sincerity I think He certainly shows His Face to anyone. I found it last year (through Islam, but please no hate because anyone who has found God makes me happy and I would hate for a nice moment to be ruined with politics) and it has changed my life tremendously. The process of refining oneself for the sake of God is arduous but infinitely rewarding. It all starts with seeking and prayer. If OP is even ASKING about how he can understand then he is on the right path!

>>13404202

>>13404202
Deuteronomy 4:29
>But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Proverbs 8:17
>I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
Jeremiah 29:13
>You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:7-8
>Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Isaiah 55:6-7
>Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Lamentations 3:25
>The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
James 4:8
>Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
2 Chronicles 7:14
>If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Matthew 5:6
>Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Eternal hell is such bullshit tbqh
Especially when people go just for not getting some water sprinkled on their head

>>13406092
If you don’t wanna be near God, then you won’t

>>13406102
Further bullshit

>>13406115
Not only is it impossible for sinners to be near God, but it’s also very painful for the sinner. It would be much worse than hell. Even atheists admit this, saying they would rather go to hell than be near God.

>>13406136
I would gladly be near the truth, be near the good, be near the just. But words such as yours make me think God is none of these.

>>13406146
It seems you have trouble accepting the fact that if you don’t go near the good, then bad things will happen. Jesus could have spoken softly and not described Hell as such a bad place, but then people wouldn’t have been concerned with following the good. I just don’t understand your mindset. If you know that not eating food will lead to starvation and suffering, then that’s no reason to abstain from food entirely!

>>13406251
my problem is, its a bullshit system, and a perfect god would have made it better
its a horrid lie to claim that everyone who isn't a christian secretly believes but doesn't because they actually want to go to hell

>>13406272
>my problem is, its a bullshit system, and a perfect god would have made it better
How so? How do you know that you wouldn’t have done the same if you were in God’s position? How would you improve the system?
>its a horrid lie to claim that everyone who isn't a christian secretly believes but doesn't because they actually want to go to hell
I never claimed that. What I might claim is that atheists are unwilling to give up their pride to believe. They would rather go to Hell than humble themselves before the Lord.

>>13406136
Bullshit Albert Fish just nutted all over me with no problem.

>>13406102
I am in everyhing dumbass.

>>13406282
I'm too tired to go into "How so? How do you know that you wouldn’t have done the same if you were in God’s position? How would you improve the system?".

If Hell is just a distance from God and he wants us to be with him, why must it be permanent?
Also re "atheists". I'm on about humans in general, including Christians who don't fit your specific brand

>>13404270
Thank you for compiling these arguments.

>>13406306
>I'm too tired to go into "How so? How do you know that you wouldn’t have done the same if you were in God’s position? How would you improve the system?".
Then your point won’t be taken seriously.
>If Hell is just a distance from God and he wants us to be with him, why must it be permanent?
The world is made of opposites. There are those who love God and are near him, and those who hate god and are away from him. This ultimately actualizes Truth. God’s ultimate goal is to be God, to be complete. Part of that goal includes being perceived in various ways, and in understanding what it’s like to be away from God.

>>13406369
>The world is made of opposites. There are those who love God and are near him, and those who hate god and are away from him. This ultimately actualizes Truth. God’s ultimate goal is to be God, to be complete. Part of that goal includes being perceived in various ways, and in understanding what it’s like to be away from God.
Is this the power of christian convincing
No wonder so many people are going to hell

>>13404270
>>13404276
>>13404279
>>13404285
How are these arguments for Christianity? If anything, these just argue for Brahman or some similar being. It tells you nothing about whether the Bible should be believed.

>>13406375
some similar principle of being*

>>13406375
this is correct. these are arguments for a metaphysical god, not for any particular religious god. if anything, to derive any further conclusions from these arguments is overreaching and almost definitely false.

>>13406375
basically everyone believes in jesus as a default
those who claim they don't are going to suffer for eternity because they hate god (oh sorry i mean "be distant from god :)")

>>13406383
not OP, I'm already there spiritually but I still consider myself an agnostic because I'm not connected to any particular religion. What do people do to make that jump from metaphysical god to a religious god? Are there any books that argue for the adoption of dogmatic beliefs?

>>13406402
Yes see >>13406042

>>13406402
Pick Christianity only if you hate humans and are happy with the idea of the majority of people going to hell for eternity

>>13406402
I’d also like to add that, aside from the prophecies, wisdom, history, etc. of Christianity that separate it from other religions, it is perhaps the most exclusive religion. Many popular religions don’t claim that you must follow that religion to benefit in the afterlife. Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, etc. mainly emphasize being good. Even Islam affirms Christianity:
Quran:
>(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

But what about the Bible?
>Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So considering this, if you were to dive headfirst into a religion, Christianity seems like a safe choice.

>>13406470
This. I love knowing that other people are going to hell when they don't have the same religious views as me. I also love to hedge my bets to make sure I get big cummy pleasure after I die.

>>13406463
I'm not really trying to pick anything, I'm just wondering if any Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. have written any books arguing for the truth of their specific religion. Could make for some interesting reads.
>>13406448
will check out, thanks.

>>13406474
Only Jesus can take away our sins completely, and he’s the only one that claimed to do such a thing. That’s the only way to go near God. All other religions pretend that you can just “try your best!” and somehow go near the perfection of the Lord.

>>13404276
What is objective moral facts?
I don't get it
Can moral be objective?

>>13406490
Just disregard that argument. It’s bad. Though the argument that one should believe because it gives us an objective framework of morality is good.

>>13406485
The fucking smug arrogance of Christians
Satan must use your kind as his agents, thanks for pushing me away from this awful sounding "faith"
Good bye

Faith is not knowledge, nor can it be generated from knowledge alone.

With Christ, we are dealing with something of another order of being. Christ is not like George Washington. He cannot be grasped as a collection of historical facts, nor as a set of ideas or actions recorded in words.

>>13406496
I would be contradicting my religion if I said Jesus is not the only way

>>13406485
>>13406474
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_exclusivism
Uh oh what are your odds now? Isn't there something disingenuous and arbitrary about your faith if you acknowledge yourself that you're only selecting it based on odds?

>>13406743
>Islam
Already shown to be inclusive here>>13406470
>Judaism
https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/what-proof-do-you-have-that-jesus-was-the-messiah/
And even if Judaism is true, Christians still believe in Yahweh and are supposed to follow the commandments.
>Buddhism
What’s the worst that can happen if you’re a Christian and Buddhism is true? You get reincarnated as a human? Surely someone who tries to model his life after Jesus will not be too far away from Buddhist principles. But what about the Buddhist when Christianity is true?
Also, Buddhism is a joke, since Gautama simply claimed to be enlightened without the assistance of God. How easy it is to talk about reincarnation and nirvana as if they’re true! But Jesus fulfilled centuries-Old prophecies and performed miracles and claimed to be the Son of God. If Buddha isn’t lying, then it’s still possible that he’s not right about everything. But if Jesus wasn’t lying, then how could he be wrong?

And is this all you have? Where are the infinite religions that the atheists like to fall back on? How can you possibly think that it’s better to follow religion x instead of Christianity?

>Isn't there something disingenuous and arbitrary about your faith if you acknowledge yourself that you're only selecting it based on odds?
As opposed to choosing at random? I’m trying to convert people here. I don’t wake up everyday and have to convince myself that my religion is true. I’m beyond that stage. But before you begin to strive for faith in some religion, you have to see the reason first.

>>13406813
>I’m trying to convert people here
You're doing a shit job at it.You just come off as delusional and arrogant.

>>13406824
What is unreasonable about being a Christian? Why shouldn’t an atheist try to become Christian?

>>13406859
I'm talking about you

>>13406864
Ok how am I delusional or arrogant?

>>13406883
Maybe god will tell you :)

>>13406890
You have to know that this makes yourself appear incapable of defending your claims. It’s easy to call people delusional and arrogant. I could do the same to you if I want!

>>13406900
Do as you please
Your intent is to convert
I'm not here to argue and win

>>13406364
He didn’t compile shit, he just took them from WLC word by word
Very low effort if you ask me

>>13406859
As someone who is trying to convert atheists you shouldn't be asking this question you should be answering the question of why SHOULD an atheist try to become a Christian. Your dismissal of religious exclusivism is pitifully weak. Obviously Christian theological rhetoric is sound when you are operating on the assumption is Christianity is true but you have to realize that demonstrating internal consistency within a Christian metaphysic doesn't rule out other metaphysics and soteriologies or an absence of one.

>>13406923
Many atheists already know the basic arguments for why people should become Christians. I’m first interested in what’s holding them back and addressing those issues.

>>13406932
because they are not self evident you brainlet, oh my g*d. it's called a faith for a reason.

>>13406939
This. The arrogant schmuck can't seem to grasp that.

>>13406932
What basic arguments? The only one I know is the argument from the resurrection, and that’s hardly a formidable argument

It makes western society and all the philosophy and literature within it way more contextualised. Also not religious either, but some passages are genuinely beautiful and surprisingly deep

>>13406939
>because they are not self evident you brainlet
What isn’t self-evident?
>The only one I know is the argument from the resurrection
you can’t be serious

>>13407084
What other arguments for christianity (not theism) are relevant nowadays?
And I mean academic arguments, not pop-philosophy trash

>>13407098
Prophecy is evidence of divine influence. It’s not 100% proof, but it’s enough reason to have faith. The numerous parallels between the OT and NT is something unique to Christianity and no other religion (to my knowledge). If Christianity is fake, it’s a literary masterpiece regardless. This is just an evidential proof/reason to believe.

>>13407122
These don’t sound like academic arguments to me, instead it sounds like evangelizing

>>13407084
>What isn't self-evident?
Anything that can't be determined a priori and logical elaborations on a priori ideas. The formal arguments at the top of the thread are examples of such arguments. You will notice that they don't say anything about the Bible or Jesus or sin or the Resurrection or anything else of that sort. There is nothing self-evident about the stories from the Bible. Theologians, and later, philosophers are certainly able to synthesize some a priori concepts that may have been based on the Bible but there is nothing fundamentally self-evident about mind or matter that demonstrates that Jesus was God and was crucified to atone for the sins of humanity.

>>13407122
I mean seriously dude it seems like you lack the mental capacity to comprehend a non-Christian worldview. How can you expect to convince anybody if you are unable to understand anything other than what you were raised on?

>>13407152
I was once an atheist. What type of evidence do you want from me?

>>13404202

see>

>>13405206
>>13406142

and pic related

>>13407136
What’s an academic argument?

>>13407365
Arguments discussed in philosophy of religion journals/papers

>>13407179
something that proves that your soteriology has any truth to it

>>13407454
Not him, but what would you accept as proof?

>>13406448
>I had a most shameful and distressing interview with poor dear Tom Eliot, who may be called dead to us all from this day forward. He has become an Anglo-Catholic, believes in God and immortality, and goes to church. I was really shocked. A corpse would seem to me more credible than he is. I mean, there's something obscene in a living person sitting by the fire and believing in God.

>>13406005
This post brought to you by pic related

Christianity and Islam scare me into not looking into other religions as most other religions don’t have such severe penalties for doubting and believing in them fully - this then gets amplified by the fact you then have to believe in the correct denomination or version of it or likewise face the severest penalty possible. I don’t get how people can move beyond these two for this reason

>>13404202
This book made christianity so clear and understandable to me that I no longer consider myself an atheist. fitting, as c.s. lewis himself converted to christianity from atheism

>>13407510
Which part in particular?

>>13407509
Islam allows you to worship as a Christian >>13406470
And don’t worry about denominations. Just follow the commandments in the Bible! It’s very clear on what it takes to be saved

>>13407585
Islam allows Christians to worship without state oppression - provided they don’t try to convert muslims but the Koran is clear in that Christians face damnation for their corrupted understanding of Jesus

>>13406402
Religious belief isn't some absolute condition brought on by a miraculous flash of lights, and you will never know with 100% certainty whether what you will believe is true. Read the Bible and go to the church. If you find it convincing, you'll keep going and you'll start believing, even in your own time. If you don't, you'll stop going. It's that simple.

If you'd like an account about how someone converted, listen to a video of Peter Hitchens talking about how he became Christian and how it was more a long accretion than a sudden bewitching.