/lit/ - Literature

Copy pasting some posts that people found helpful on advaita. Thanks again to the advaita poster:

Adi Shankara's Prasthanatrayi commentaries (his most important works)

>Commentary on 8 of the Muhkya Upanishads part 1
https://archive.org/details/EightUpanishadsWithSankarabhashyamSwamiGambhiranandaVol11989

>Commentary on 8 of the Muhkya Upanishads part 2
https://archive.org/details/EightUpanishadsWithSankarabhashyamSwamiGambhiranandaVol21966

>Brahma Sutra Bhasya (commentary) of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/details/BrahmaSutraSankaraBhashyaEngVMApte1960

>The Bhagavad-Gita with commentary of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/details/Bhagavad-Gita.with.the.Commentary.of.Sri.Shankaracharya


Adi Shankaras non-commentary Prakarana Granthas (philosophical treatises)

>Atma Bodha (Self-knowledge)
http://www.lovebliss.eu/Download/Atma%20Bodha.pdf

>Upadesasahasri (A Thousand Teachings)
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Sri_Shankaracharya-Upadeshasahasri%20-%20Swami%20Jagadananda%20%281949%29%20[Sanskrit-English].pdf

>Aparokshanubhuti (Direct experience)
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.216548

>Vivekachudamani (Crest Jewel of Discrimination)
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/18/items/Vivekacudamani/Vivekacudamani.pdf


Non-Adi Shankara Advaita texts

>The Ashtavakra Gita
https://realization.org/p/ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita.html

>Voga Vasistha
https://archive.org/details/VasisthasYoga

>Advaita Bodha Deepika (The lamp of non-deal knowledge)
https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Advaita-Bodha-Deepika.pdf

>Drg-Drsya-Viveka (An inquiry into the Nature of the 'Seer' and the 'Seen')
https://vivekananda.net/PDFBooks/Others/DrgDrsyaViveka1931.pdf

>The Ribhu Gita
https://archive.org/stream/RibhuGitaRamaMoorthyH./Ribhu%20Gita%20%20Rama%20Moorthy%20H.%20#page/n1/mode/2up

>>13401233
What's with all the Guenon threads? Is this some stealthy muslim shilling?

>>13401237
>Of the works you've listed, where does one begin?

Read the Ashtavakra Gita for a quick TLDR. After that either read the Yoga Vasistha or read through the core texts of Advaita (Shankara's Prasthanatrayi commentaries, roughly 2,000 pages). After you read one of those read the other. The prasthanatrayi texts that Shankara comments on are earlier than the Yoga Vasistha but the Yoga Vasistha may slightly pre-date Adi Shankara. Reading both Vasistha and his commentaries would round out your understanding exceptionally well. After that really any order.

There are two high quality abbreviations translation of Vasistha, both by the same guy, my other link has the longer one. The original Sanskrit has roughly the same # of verses as the bible and the only full English translation was awful so I'd not recommend it.


>How would you contrast traditional metaphysics in the West with Advaita Vedanta? As for initiation

A. Coomaraswamy wrote an excellent article on that subject titled 'Vedanta and Western Tradition'. I couldn't do it more justice than him.

http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=The_Vedanta_and_Western_Tradition_by_Ananda_Coomaraswamy.pdf

>>13401242
Here's a short text on the exoteric-esoteric distinction:
http://www.fatuma.net/text/Haqiqa_and_Sharia_in_Islam_by_Rene_Guenon.pdf
Here's an exchange of letters between an Islamic Traditionalist and a Christian critical of traditionalism, specifically debating over the idea of non-dualism:
http://www.sacredweb.com/online_articles/sw17_bolton-upton.pdf

>someone saved my copy pasta for the original trad threads
I approve

>>13401248
Guenon chart. Any anons who want to put together charts or recc lists related, even only tangentially, to traditionalism will be appreciated.

Schuon said this...

Makes you think

>>13401253
also here's an Evola list someone made

>>13401259
What does it make you think

>>13401260
>English is primitive as fuck compared to other languages
Trash heap

>>13401304
this is a better recc post for evola

Been reading Jean Borella and the other trad christians.

Pic related is interesting. He makes the claim that guenon was mistaken about a strick esoteric/exoteric origin to christianity, that it was always both esoteric and exoteric in a similar way to hinduism, that there is no divide, that its outer form is always exoteric, it becomes more esoteric as you journey towards the metaphysical center.

Any thoughts on christian guenonians:
Jean Hani
Jean Borella
Wolfgang Smith
Rama Coomaraswamy

>>13401280

Aristotle had a touch of the Kshatriya in him--worth examining the philosophical consequences of his teachings in the Platonic tradition through an Evolian lens...

>>13401331
Well he says that esoteric/exoteric aren't "things". He says they are just a hermeneutic. It's an interesting book, for sure.

>>13401341
>>13401259
Guenon respected the scholastics, whose metaphysics were christian aristotelian, so the antagonism isnt what you might get from this.

>>13401240
He was a Christian.

>>13401233
>>13401237
>>13401240
>>13401242
>>13401248
>>13401250
>>13401253
>>13401259
>>13401260
>>13401280
>>13401304
>>13401310
>>13401331
>>13401341
>>13401347
>>13401349
Imagine being this mentally pozzed

>>13401358

>>13401347
I'm so glad you've read it.
I'm not 100% on his ideas since I've only read that section once so far, but yes that sounds right.

I especially liked his adjustment of the classic guenonian circumference as exoteric, radius as path to esoteric, with the addition of a perpendicular vertical dimension that is the prime source of all knowing. Thus esoteric/exoteric is relative to your position towards the center but also in relation to your access to the prime source of knowledge (a right angle?).

I also liked how harsh he was on Guenons ideas, since so many traditionalists treat Guenon much more delicately.

>>13401233
Any love for Lord Northbourne? He was the only Traditionalist who wrote on farming and ecology.

>>13401357
This is true.

>>13401364
Go on, interesting.

>>13401260
That list is outdated since many texts have received English translations from the time that image was made. Tge Recognitions and Tge Bow and the Club are far better introductions to Evola than Mystery of the Grail and The Hermetic Tradition.

>>13401240
>What's with all the Guenon threads? Is this some stealthy muslim shilling?
Theres been some of that, but the trads talk about all Religions. Theres always a good deal of talk about hinduism (which Guenoncwrote about most) and now more Christianity (which I am glad to see, guenonians dont talk about christianity much due to the below).

>>13401357
>>13401375
>He was a Christian.
He (Guenon) was... but he converted to Islam due to his pessimism about Christianity's continued traditionalism. However, some Guenonians have disagreed and used his metaphysical terminology applied to christianity

See:
Jean Hani
Jean Borella
Wolfgang Smith
Rama Coomaraswamy

>>13401392
>but he converted to Islam
This is true, but he didn't consider it a "conversion", just an outward adoption of forms. It was purely a matter of expediency.

>>13401392
>guenonians dont talk about christianity
It's a shame, really. Over all, I agree with Guenon's metaphysical views, but Christian literature is some of my favorite, and has some of the most potent and moving symbolism. I love the Gospels and Book of Revelation.

>>13401404
Based.

>>13401380
I wish I could. My understanding of Guenon, Christianity, and Borella himself are limiting factors for me. I am working on these subjects currently.

Borella's analysis of the Grail Myths was interesting, he puts it in an apostolic context. This is a sort of apologetic, since Guenon seemed to respect it more than more regular christian esotericisms. However, Borella uses this as a springboard to say that Guenons idea of an original esoteric/esoteric distinction in the sense of a taoism/confucianism distinction was incorrect. Borella claims something like that Christianity was a continuum like Hinduism from the start.

Borella has a neat section on how the trinitarian debate was a method that unlocked the metaphysic rather than being a dogma. Dont really understand this section, but it was really spiritually raw and enlightening at the time.

I like Borella's defense of using Guenon to interpret Christianity in the same way Augustine used Platonism or Aquinas used Aristotle. Not to distort, but to make clear.

>>13401399
Okay. Might be good to be clear on that, cause people use it to make Guenon out to be antichristian.

>>13401404
I find that Guenon enlightens christianity for me (opens it up), so I completely agree.

I've been talking about Borella in this thread, so I can say several Guenonian writers agree with you as well.

>>13401425
>Okay. Might be good to be clear on that, cause people use it to make Guenon out to be antichristian.
https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=262
"those who, for reasons of an esoteric an initiatic order, adopt a traditional form different form that to which they would seem to be linked by their origin [do this] either because their native tradition provides them with no possibility of an esoteric order, or because their chosen tradition give them a foundation that is more appropriate to their nature, and consequently more favorable to their spiritual work.

Contrary to what takes place in ‘conversion’, nothing here implies the attribution of the superiority of one traditional form over another. It is merely a question of what one might call reasons of spiritual expediency, which is altogether different from simple individual ‘preference’."

>>13401233
that interview with evola is so comfy, he seems like a really nice guy

>>13401431
That's in-line with my understanding of Traditionalism as a whole, all traditions hold the true primordial religion.

However, Guenon thought that Christianity had lost the truth at the beginning of the 13th century, and was only worsened by the protestant reformation 200 years later.

He hoped that Hindu metaphysics could show Catholicism what it had lost, but it would be incorrect to say that Guenon put the Catholicism of his time on the same level of metaphysical purity as Hinduism or Islam during his time.

His view was that Christianity had been badly distorted by modernity.

>>13401453
What was Guenon’s opinion on the Christ story?

>>13401417
One interesting point that he brings up in that book is that the fact that the Christian Mysteries are open to all does not prove that they are not esoteric, since the word Mystery is obviously a comparison to the Eleusinian Mysteries and those were similarly open to all, even slaves and women, which is quite remarkable for ancient Greece. Participation in the mysteries is open to all, it is the actual understanding of those mysteries that is a privelage. I did not previously know, before reading Borella's book, that the Eleusinian mysteries were so open. I had the common misconception that they were some kind of small secretive club.

>European >White >Aryan >Western
>Worships the Tradition of the Semitic world

what the fuck?

>>13401458
Have not read his thoughts directly, but heres some items:

- It seems clear that Guenon believe that Christianity was a true religion with esoteric validity. This would at least make Christ a true prophet of God. Christianity was true, is what I mean, according to Guenon.

- I've read that in his posthumous collection "Christian Esotericism" he writes that Christ did rise from the grave as a fact. I have not read it though, so I cant say.

>>13401470
If you expected Guenon to be a western supremacist, you have not done the least amount of research on him.

Opinion on reincarnation?

>>13401488
Guenon did not believe in it, while I'm undecided. The studies of Ian Stevenson on reincarnation are somewhat suggestive of its reality, but there are other ways to interpret the data. I'm somewhat partial to the possibility that reincarnation does exist, but as an exception rather than a rule.

>>13401466
Yes, that's a part I had forgotten. The exoteric/esoteric divide he had with guenon was based around this important point. It was available to all, but true understanding was the key.

I also liked the support he gave, that Guenons idea that maybe some hidden cloister of bishops or priests still carried the truth, was ridiculously strict because it would have made christian esotericism open to only several hundred people at a time throughout its history. Whereas Sufism and Taoism had large amounts of people. It would've been saying Christianity, which is a religion for all, had from its beginning held the truth for a tiny fraction of its members, which wasnt in line with any other trad religion.

>>13401501
Christianity honestly has a great appeal to me, but it bothers me tremendously how opposed their major theologians and such are to Universalism (in the strictly metaphysical sense) and the possibility that other faiths/traditions might also be "salvific".

>>13401516
See, that's why I've been loving the Trad analysis of it, it opens it up to reveal universal truth.

I wouldnt worry about it really, same thing happens in most traditional religions. Sedgwicks book talks about how (iirc) the place that Guenon frequented in egypt as a muslim, doesnt even give access to his books. They are behind a couch. They only offer strict islamic texts in their library.

Rama Coomaraswamy was barred from teaching theology at the Catholic Sspx due to his fathers guenonianism.

Many Islamics think sufism is heresy.

Ecumenism is almost a greater sign of modernity than it is of strict tradition.

>>13401546
>Ecumenism is almost a greater sign of modernity than it is of strict tradition.
Unfortunately a lot of people conflate religious ecumenism and metaphysical universality. They are totally different. Someone who is an actual metaphysical traditionalist does not want some wishy washy blending of all the religions like some people push for today

>>13401498
>Guenon did not believe in it
That's incorrect, it's a common misconception that he didn't believe in transmigration. His whole contention was with the word "reincarnation" because it has different connotations then transmigration. Vedanta teaches that the Atma (which you are) never actually transmigrates or reincarnates, only the subtle body (which you are not) does while the Atma observing it remains ever the same, all-pervasive like the ether, neither coming nor going anywhere. If you read through Advaita primary texts you'll see this mentioned in them. Similar to how he took issue with people/orientalists describing Vedanta as idealism or pantheism, he considered that people misunderstood the Hindu doctrines when speaking of reincarnation because they conceived of it as individual beings being born again, Bob being reborn again as "Bob" in another life and so on. Also the primary Upanishads only say "transmigration" but don't use the sanskrit etymological equivalent of "reincarnation" once. In the proper understanding the thing/entity which people "Are" in reality never transmigrates while the subtle body that transmigrates is no more Bob then it was every other past person it inhabited. This is not just me reading into Guenon my own interpretation either but in the series of articles and reviews at the end of the Sophia Perennis edition of 'Studies in Hinduism' he explains all of this himself in writing. Im traveling home at the moment but when I get there if I can find the passage I'll post it.

>>13401570
From what I understand his rejection of reincarnation was rejecting that idea that we return to the human state again. He contended that we move on to a different state of being, since there are an indefinite multitude of such states. It would be "arbitrary" to return to a state we have already experienced, since the All-Possibility is infinite and does not repeat itself. Something like that.

>>13401568
Yeah, I agree.
This is why occultism usually looks so shallow. It's a bunch of exoteric symbols thrown together from disparate religions and is sold as some sort of primordial cult, if it even has that much depth.

I am interested in Schuons reverence for Mary in his weird syncretic group, however.

>>13401516
I too find that tendency to be a little irritating and disappointing, although at the same time one should remember that according to the official doctrine of the Catholic Church currently, people outside of the church can still be saved by a mysterious grace connected with or coming from Christ, and this is itself a fairly recent change in doctrine which I believe wasn't even present in the middle ages when Guenon viewed it as housing some form of esoteric/Traditional initiatic metaphysics; so there is still some leeway for non-Christians. One can read into that to whatever extent one wishes but it's still an important distinction that could be viewed as having important metaphysical significance.

>>13401586
>I am interested in Schuons reverence for Mary in his weird syncretic group, however.
I find it creepy. His whole group was very weird. They used to do naked purportedly native american rituals together, and he slept with a lot of women, including but not limited to his follower's wives, which may be something permissible in some traditions (like if you're an ancient Egyptian pharaoh or something) but is definitely not allowed in Islam. If he is gonna larp as a Shaykh, he should do it properly, if you ask me. His whole group strikes me as incredibly cult like. I've heard his contemporary followers chant his name in their dhikr sessions as well. His writing can be insightful, but often it strikes me as a tad sentimental or just having sloppy reasoning.

>>13401602
I think that's a factual and fair point of view. Schuon has many issues for a strict trad.

Some Guenonian Christian books for anyone interested.

>>13401570
What does that mean experientially?

>>13401382
>Evola
What do you think of "Hermetic" and "Grail" as books by themselves?

>>13401584
Im pretty sure I've seen that passage that you are basing that on, correct me if I'm wrong but he never says "not returning to the human state" but rather "not returning to the same state". He means that it would be redundant for Bob to return as Bob again in another life with the same attributes, mentality, tendencies etc again, not that you are automatically reborn as an alien on another planet or in another dimension or whatever. Also, he generally regards Adi Shankara as being a sort of "first among equals" and never contradicts him insofar as Guenon wrote about Advaita being the purest and most direct expression of the same doctrine reflected everywhere else and cites him constantly as the basis for his ideas. Shankara and the Upanishads certainly did accept transmigration from one human life to another and in one of his commentaries Shankara writes that the residual effects from the past life explains people being born with an inherent talent at speech, music etc.

>>13401699
That makes sense, actually.

>>13401233
What should I read before diving headfirst into complex/esoteric traditionalism like Guenon and Evola? Like, pretend I’m a retard who’s only read Harry Potter, how do you introduce me to traditionalism? Should I read some holy books? The perennial philosophy? The Greeks? What would be an entire passage from someone with no knowledge whatsoever to a traditionalist?

>>13401728
Sedgwick's Against the Modern World for a historical background.

The Essential Rene Guenon is a pretty good intro.
Guenons Introduction to Hindu Doctrine is the general starting point.

The Worlds Religions by Huston Smith for a soft trad view of religion, I guess.

>>13401728
Familiarize yourself with basic philosophy, mainly from antiquity. So start with basic stuff like Presocratics, Plato, Augustine, and Aristotle. I found Jung helpful, as well, in a way. I first discovered him years before I had heard of the traditionalists, but he helped me to appreciate the depth and complexity of religious/mythological symbolism. The difference between him and traditionalists, or at least one difference, is that he limits himself only to their psychological meaning, while the traditionalists also posit a metaphysical/initiatic meaning to the symbols. Huxley's the Perennial Philosophy is also helpful, but suffers from similar limitations to Jung. Definitely read sacred texts as well.
>>13401743
Mircea Eliade is also good for "soft trad" views.

Is traditionalism essentially Hinduism for non Indians ?

>>13401743
Not him, but I'm someone who's still not willing to fully reject some aspects of the modern world, but as a Christian still interested in delving deeper in modern christian thought and how it can maintain and justify itself in a modern/post-modern world, I have a few questions if you would not mind me asking.

What is the position of Guenon, Evola and other esoteric scholars in regards to the rise of fascist and communist ideologies? Do they differ in their treatment of different political ideologies of the time, or do they more or less reject them as a whole?

How much attempt is there to reconcile certain aspects of modern life with traditions? I would imagine they don't freely embrace all traditions, but have a specific idea of what would be the christian tradition. I see there is a considerable degree of focus on a more metaphysical and cosmological treatment of Christianity. Would it be closer, then, to medieval christian thought, such as Augustine or Anselm?

How much, if any, do the traditionalists focus on morality? How much do they expect out of christian followers, and what do they emphasize in the bible as the proper way of living? Is it more of a catholic perspective which focuses on the deeds of Jesus and his love, charity and humility, or is it more of a protestant take such as emphasizing traditions relating to society that are not about how one ought to treat others, but what God does, and does not permit?

Their theology, judging from the titles of the books, seems to be motivated by a rejection of modernity. What do they find most important to reject in modernity? The obvious answer seems to be the erosion of traditions, but what do they see in this process that is important not to be lost? How much of it should adapt, and how much should stay the same? Or is this "modern" christian esoterism more of a metaphysical theology rather than a social critique? Perhaps both?

Sorry if I repeated myself, I'm kind of sleepy right now.

>>13401760
>Mircea Eliade
Yeah, I have my eye on his alchemy book

>>13401813
>What is the position of Guenon, Evola and other esoteric scholars in regards to the rise of fascist and communist ideologies?
Evola: Ultra Fascist
Guenon: Professed apolitical, wanted traditionalist caste society, so still right wing and hierarchical, but against industrialism. Theocratic monarchist brahmanism might get you in. The neighborhood.

>How much attempt is there to reconcile certain aspects of modern life with traditions?
Evola said to ride the tiger.
Guenon moved to egypt and lived as traditional a life as possible.

>Would it be closer, then, to medieval christian thought, such as Augustine or Anselm?
Guenon respected the medieval scholastics, so that would give you an idea. His ide christianity was the catholic church from Charlemagne to the end of the 12th century.

>How much, if any, do the traditionalists focus on morality?
Guenon was against moralism, so you might think of things in terms of virtue and being inline with God.

>How much do they expect out of christian followers, and what do they emphasize in the bible as the proper way of living?
A christian trad would see the bible as the word of god. Catholics believe salvation is based roughly on baptism, eucharist, confession, and refraining from mortal sins.

>Is it more of a catholic perspective which focuses on the deeds of Jesus and his love, charity and humility?
I dont know that this is the only catholic perspective, but a guenonian perspective would be medieval catholic, definitely not protestant. As hardcore catholic as you can think. SSPX and so forth.

>Their theology, judging from the titles of the books, seems to be motivated by a rejection of modernity. What do they find most important to reject in modernity? The obvious answer seems to be the erosion of traditions, but what do they see in this process that is important not to be lost?
True metaphysics, being in touch with primal reality and primordial religion, God, the nondual. Quality is lost to quantity in the modern world.

>How much of it should adapt, and how much should stay the same?
Primordial truth takes on the outward forms of the individual cultures and religions. What must stay the same is the True Metaphysic.

>Or is this "modern" christian esoterism more of a metaphysical theology rather than a social critique? Perhaps both?
Guenonianism is both a metaphysical theology and a social critique of the modern world. This is true of all guenonian trads really.

is there a book that discusses what traditionalism islam and christianity has in common?

>>13401902
The is actually.

>>13401868
Thank you for the answers.
>I dont know that this is the only catholic perspective
Oh, I never meant to imply, it's just what I take from the way many of the saints they revere acted on. It might be idealistic of me more than anything.

>Primordial truth takes on the outward forms of the individual cultures and religions. What must stay the same is the True Metaphysic.
But are individual cultures and religions justified in having a wide variety of differences? Say, Zen Buddhism has intense focus on the individual, though possessing metaphysical arguments for it. Did Guenon believe Hinduism and Christianity had this True Metaphysic in common? On a more speculative matter, do you think Genon would argue globalization is the result of cultures being eroded by this focus on quantity over quality?

>>13401913
Cool, thanks. his book on hinduism also looks good

>>13401868
>Evola: Ultra Fascist
he wasn't fascist at all, what he said was that he was beyond Fascism

>>13401938
You are correct, but he did greatly admire the SS

>>13401927
>But are individual cultures and religions justified in having a wide variety of differences?
Yes, Guenon even saw no issue with an individual changing to a different traditional religion if it fit his spiritual disposition better.

>Say, Zen Buddhism has intense focus on the individual, though possessing metaphysical arguments for it. Did Guenon believe Hinduism and Christianity had this True Metaphysic in common?
Yes, he did. All true religions had the true metaphysics in common. The question is whether they still do.

>On a more speculative matter, do you think Genon would argue globalization is the result of cultures being eroded by this focus on quantity over quality?
I would imagine that he saw them as heavily related. Globalism, quantity over quality, industrialization, all these are the disease of the modern world forgetting that which is most important.

>>13401938
>Evola: Ultra Fascist
>he wasn't fascist at all, what he said was that he was beyond Fascist

I suppose that somewhat accurate. Not fascist at all? I dunno, he saw some potential for Italian fascism and national socialism to be moved in the direction of traditionalism. He lectured to national socialists, who rejected him. So there are similarities at least.

I'm sure a strict definition of fascism as reactionary modernism could remove Evola, but the issues that one might have with fascism would likely have a good deal of overlap with their issues with Evola.

There were evolians who revered Hitler and national socialism as seen in Sedgwicks book. So it's difficult to say exactly what one means by connecting Evola and fascism.

Marty Glass is soft Trad. If you're trying to find someone that connects Traditionalism with Marx (his critiques, not Marxist policies) he would be it.

>>13402027
anyone got a pdf or epub?

>>13402027
How much does the book emphasize marx?

I know someone who likes marx and guenon. So is it a heavy synthesis?

>>13402041
Here you go.
https://mega.nz/#F!4pEmgaBS!IR5WhM6ZRu5PnRR5XVfcVQ

>>13402042
Marx is only a part of it. He also brings Baudrillard, Ellul, Mumford, and other Trads into the picture. I admit, a lot of the book is a polemic against modernity, but there is something about his prose I find captivating.

>>13402112
I like the sound of some leftist/trad synthesis.

>>13402112
>Here you go.
>https://mega.nz/#F!4pEmgaBS!IR5WhM6ZRu5PnRR5XVfcVQ
Taking a look at it now, and it’s a lot weirder than I expected. I am intrigued, but wtf am i reading

>>13402158
Yeah, the writing is unconventional, especially the table of contents. It can be a bit stream of conscious-y here and there, but it's still communicable that even a brainlet can understand what he's talking about.

>>13401237
>>13401242
OP, I'm the guy who originally compiled the Advaita copypasta so many months ago, it's outdated and has incorrect info at certain points (Vasistha is actually for sure post-Shankara, and Shankara's commentaries are more like between 4000-5000 pages). Here is a new one if you want to post it in the future, it has a bunch of free pdfs of translated Vedanta texts. I will reply to this post with it because it won't fit in the same post as this.

>>13402191
>Intro books to read first before any Vedanta text (read 1 or both)
https://archive.org/details/EssentialVedanta.TheANewSourceBookOfAdvaitaVedantaSeeAdvaitaVedantaAPhilosophica_201701
https://archive.org/stream/reneguenon/1925%20-%20Man%20and%20His%20Becoming%20according%20to%20the%20Ved%C3%A2nta

>Shankara's commentaries (most important)
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Eight-Upanisads-Vol-1.pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Eight-Upanisads-vol2.pdf
https://archive.org/details/Brihadaranyaka.Upanishad.Shankara.Bhashya.by.Swami.Madhavananda
https://archive.org/details/Shankara.Bhashya-Chandogya.Upanishad-Ganganath.Jha.1942.English
https://archive.org/details/BrahmaSutraSankaraBhashyaEnglishTranslationVasudeoMahadeoApte1960
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Bhagavad-Gita.with.the.Commentary.of.Sri.ShankaracharyaN.pdf

>Shankara's non-commentary works
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Sri_Shankaracharya-Upadeshasahasri%20-%20Swami%20Jagadananda%20%281949%29%20[Sanskrit-English].pdf
https://gita-society.com/pdf2011/vivekachudamani.pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Sri_Shankaracharya-AtmaBodha%20%28and%20Other%20Stotras%29%20-%20Swami%20Nikhilananda%20%281947%29%20[Sanskrit-English].pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Aparoksha-Anubhuti-by-Sri-Shankaracharya.pdf
https://www.swamij.com/shankara-vakya-vritti.htm
http://shiningworld.com/site/files/pdfs/publications/books/1_Knowledge_of_Truth_Tattva_Bodh.pdf
http://www.vidyavrikshah.org/SIVANANDALAHARI.pdf
http://www.vidyavrikshah.org/SOUNDARYALAHARI.pdf
http://theheartofthesun.com/Nirvana.pdf
http://jagannathavallabha.com/pdf_engl/prasnottara%20english%20for%20amazon.pdf

>non-Shankara Advaita Vedanta texts
https://realization.org/p/ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita.html
http://www.shiningworld.com/site/files/pdfs/publications/scripture/avadhuta_gita.pdf
http://www.bahaistudies.net/asma/dasbodha.pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/jivanmuktiviveka.pdf
https://www.beezone.com/Ramana/tripura%20rahasya.pdf
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/AtmavidyAvilAsaH_trnsln.pdf
https://archive.org/details/SriJnanadevasAmritanubhavaAmbrosialExperienceEnglishTranslationOfOriginalMarathiChangadevaPasashti
https://archive.org/details/VasisthasYoga
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.238117/page/n3 (Vedantasara)
https://www.nevernotpresent.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Panchadasi.pdf
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/vedAntakalpalatikA_Madhusudana_Sarasvati.pdf
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/vedAntaparibhAshA_dharmarajavarIndrA.pdf
https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Advaita-Bodha-Deepika.pdf
http://ramana-maharshi.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/7/2/24723372/kaivalya_navaneeta_-_cream_of_liberation.pdf
https://vivekananda.net/PDFBooks/Others/DrgDrsyaViveka1931.pdf

>>13402191
Of course, thanks bro. I remembered these threads from a while ago and wanted to kickstart them back into regular discussion. If there are better versions of what I posted, let’s see it

>>13402206
>>13402203
Hey guys, I’m the original OP of those threads, feel free to modify the copy pastas and the OP post for future threads. Do whatever works. I mainly stopped making them because the early threads garnered so much hostility. It was honestly quite surreal. It seemed completely out of any reasonable proportion. That made me hang back for a long time as far making threads on Guenon, but other people kept it going, especially under a more Advaita/Eastern philosophy banner. I’m also the creator of the Guenon chart btw, so I hope you found that helpful.

>>13401233
Noone cares about your islamic cult. Go larp alone.

>>13402229
>after 80 replies: “nobody cares”
You also know nothing about traditionalism and it shows

>>13401812
Bumping for an answer to this post

>>13402237
The metaphysical ideas Guenon refers to can be found in many traditions, not only Hinduism.

Excellent thread. Bump

>>13402222
Love for Guenon
Love for you

>>13402274
But isn’t it a primairly Hindu outlook and foundation as the orthodox branches of those religions reject Vedanta ?

>>13402222
>I’m also the creator of the Guenon chart btw, so I hope you found that helpful.
It was thank you, in fact you just reminded me that I recently made a slightly changed 1.1 version of it with some helpful notes that I thought would be good, namely that Rose (while good) is not at all perennialist, that despite what the chart indicates it's not needed to read Studies in Hinduism (which is just a bunch of random essays) before Man and His Becoming, and that Man and His Becoming should ideally be read before the metaphysical works which were written later and which reference it like Symbolism of the Cross, Multiple States etc.

>>13402310
Trads find parallels in all legitimate religions.

For instance, Jean Borella was a catholic and had a daughter who became a benedictine monk. I assume he didnt think he was hindu.

Coomaraswamy's son was a catholic priest.

Guenon approved heavily of Taoism.

Many orthodox religions have issues with guenonian traditionalists and their perennial philosophy, but that doesnt make it hindu.

>>13402203
Can you tell me why Eliot Deutsch's book is a good intro? He starts with direct passages of some Upanishads (Br and Chandogya if I recall correct) after a brief (one or two pages) introduction, then proceeds to direct passages of the Bhagavad-Gita. Wouldn't it be better to read the Upanishads and the Gita and then proceed to the second half of his book?

>>13401619
>Rama Coomaraswamy
He was a sedevacantist that thought the mainstream church lost apostolic succession, not even SSPX believes that, I would take what he says as a grain of salt.

>>13402321
That’s actually something that had occurred to me some time after I made the chart. I agree with that edit.

>>13401233
i dont get vedanta
shouldnt traditionalism actually be shrautist

>>13402412
Guenon thought the Catholic church had lost its viability since the end of the 12th century, so I dont think Rama is out of line here. In fact, the christian guenonians who believe the catholic church still provides legitimate intuition are in the minority really.

>>13402442
I suppose thats true but his argument is entirely on the plane of exotericism (theology)

>>13402446
Rama's argument?

How is theology exoteric when it's the study of God?

>>13402442
guenons worldview is totally incompatible with old catholic church
>Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
although after second vatican council hed find more of a home in it

>>13402453
Yeah, I know, everyone knows. We hear this every thread.

Rama Coomaraswamy wasnt allowed to teach theology.
Iirc, Guenons sufi group has his books blocked off and only allows orthodox Islamic books in their library.
Nasr has had some issues with orthodox Islam due to being trad.

Orthodox religions having issues with guenonians is fairly consistent, it doesnt discount what I wrote.

>>13402467
guenonian traditionalism is insightful, but in the end if you dont follow orthodox teachings you dont really believe in the religion
it is really self contradictory

>>13402446
Yes, I mean Rama

>How is theology exoteric when it's the study of God?
Well one would normally think that, but Guenon in his first book makes the distinction between philosophy, theology and metaphysics (esotericism so called)

>>13402490
>>13402450
replied to wrong post

>>13402335
So is there a difference between a traditionalist and practioner of Vedanta?

If the orthodox religions are correct in traditionalists having a belief set that is incompatible with their own what would that make traditionalists ?

Well I'm reading about Joan of Arc again and
>The English and Burgundians gave their own unwitting tribute to her: the Duke of Bedford would later say that it was the "Pucelle" who shattered the English fortunes at Orléans, admitting that she inspired terror among his troops - echoing Burgundians such as Jean LeFevre de Saint-Remi and Enguerrand de Monstrelet, who noted that their English allies feared her "more than any other commander" (to use Monstrelet's phrase).

>>13402480
That's a fair view, I dont disagree.
Guenon does recommend you follow one religion without syncretism however, but their belief would still be out of line with there being no salvation outside the church.

>>13402490
I did not recall reading this. Thank you.

I would assume Rama's issue with post Vatican 2 theology and liturgy had to do with an underlying issue for true initiation and metaphysics however.
How could you change the exoteric theology without it distorting the underlying esoteric metaphysic?

>>13402508
its most obvious in the catholic church were the liberalization and modernization movement has taken the guenonian traditionalist movement's claims as one of their main points

>>13402504
>So is there a difference between a traditionalist and practioner of Vedanta?

Traditionalism is not synonymous with vedanta, no.

Guenon thought that using vedanta as a vehicle for universal metaphysical truth would get around the barriers that people had built in their mind towards christianity. According to trad thought, he could have used any religion, which is indicated by him being a hardcore sufi, even moving to egypt. The idea is that hindu is perennial, not that perennial is hindu. Sufi is perennial, as is catholicism in the middle ages, and taoism, etc.

>If the orthodox religions are correct in traditionalists having a belief set that is incompatible with their own what would that make traditionalists ?

Guenonian Traditionalists are their own animal. They are perennialists who are against syncretism. Some scholars note their similarities to the occult and theosophy, even those these are syncretic.

Academics have an issue with trad thought "polluting" their studies, because they often dont come out as guenonian. So they see their work as hurt by a early 20th century construction projected on original religious sources.

I would never tell anyone that when you read guenon you are understanding the religions he is referencing. You are understanding a specific philosophy of religion.

He does have some respect, maharishi for example. His local sufis thought he was in touch. In my experience, religious orthodox types are often very amenable to his ideas if you dont tell them where its from. That's what makes trads dangerous to academics. It's so intuitive you dont realize you're agreeing with somthing not empirical. Scholars are generally anti-intuitive.

>>13402442
>>13402530
im interested to know why exactly was he against post-tridentine church and why did he think it lost its way

>>13402514
It is ironic, guenonians are against modernity but modernity makes the catholic church more amenable to a major position of theirs.

But, I would imagine most liberal catholics would not like guenons thought, and many traditional catholics could find overlap.

It's not just the catholics though, I find this universal view of all religions in most religious people I talk to. To think otherwise would be bigoted in the modern world.

I do see your point however. Traditional catholics wouldnt like guenonian traditionalists, which is why Rama was barred from teaching.

>>13402538
>post-tridentine
Do you mean Rama. He was against it for most reasons a trad would be against Vatican 2. Modernization.

Why was guenon against post 12th century catholicism?

Once again, modernity. The reinessance brought humanism and killed off the metaphysical truth of christianity.

I dont know specific theological points however, and Jean Borella shows in his book that Guenons understanding of christianity is actually pretty lacking.

>>13402543
well modernists have used a lot of concepts which are not necessarily bad like tolerance or ecumenism into justifying their own unorthodox thought and gave them bad reputation
i think there would be a lot more space for openminded discussion if that were not the case and if it werent such a priority to preserve orthodoxy of the teaching today - in such a case people like rama probably wouldnt be as toxic

>>13402550
i was using post tridentine baroque more mystic and personal development of catholic faith as opposed to earlier medieval one
ive always seen it as necessary organic development to amend too corrupt and "institutional" medieval christianity
>The reinessance brought humanism and killed off the metaphysical truth of christianity
however baeoque tridentine christianity is the exact opposite of renaissance humanism
i dont get the aversion to counterreformation thought

>>13402554
You make an interesting point. The orthodox catholics definently dont want to seem adjustable right now, I see that.

A church gone guenonian would be an interesting sight, but would it be true catholicism? I would say, no. However, Aquinas used Aristotle for his Christian metaphysic. This is the case Borella makes for Guenon.

An event along these lines happened with Seraphim Rose. Rose was influenced by guenon, but then joined Greek Orthodox and dropped the perennialism, seeing the Greek Orthodox as the one true church.

>>13402562
I think I see your point, and most orthodox Latin Catholics would be closer to what you're saying. Jean Borella probably would make more sense to you than Guenon himself.

Guenon thought the reinessance killed the west, so he was probably unconcerned with any counterreformation thought, as it was a lost fight.

The guenonian catholics since then have made the claim that guenon was too quick to dump catholicism and it is still viable.

>>13402569
>A church gone guenonian would be an interesting sight, but would it be true catholicism?
im not saying to become guenonian or anything of the sort, but merely to have a more open philosophical discussion, like in the early christianity when it was debated on influence of antic philosophy on christianity, in the toxic atmosphere of today figures like saint augustine wouldnt be possible
ironically modernization led church to become more close minded and more rigid
>However, Aquinas used Aristotle for his Christian metaphysic
thats kinda what im talking about
of course other religions are false, but that doesnt mean we cant research them and learn from them

>>13402569
>A church gone guenonian would be an interesting sight
That would be interesting indeed, since it is a possibility and the Pope being infallible and having the coercive power to pull it off.

>>13402573
>Guenon thought the reinessance killed the west
our categorization of historic eras isnt really correct and its a result of the enlightenment - id rather put it like this
1) late antiquity - rise of christiantiy and dominate era crisis and transformation of roman empire to early middle ages - ending with carolingian renaisance which is its culmination
2) from high middle ages and the ottonian renaissance to the renaiisance which is its culmination
i think its a great pity that contemporary thought and science is so poisoned by enlightenment trash

>>13402562
I also want to note, your understanding of catholicism is above mine, so all I can really say is that Guenon thought it had been corrupted. I like the guenonians who say it hasn't been, and hope to learn more in the future.

>>13402576
Right, I understand completely where you're coming from. It makes sense.

I see similar issues with the protestants around me. Everything they stood for is now amenable.

>>13402580
Oh God, I'd convert today.
That would be wild. What a world that would be.
St. Rene Guenon
What would the art look like?

>>13402589
This is above my head. Respectfully, what point are you making here? What affect does this have on guenons thesis?

>>13402603
im saying that history is very complex and theres a reason why renaissance became what it is - and in the end it ended an era of corruption in the catholic church and purified it through counterreformation

>>13402608
Fascinating.
Do you have some counterreformation writers you would recommend?

On a different point, what do you think of deMaiste?

What do you think of the Scholastics?

>>13402603
>Oh God, I'd convert today.
>That would be wild. What a world that would be.
>St. Rene Guenon
>What would the art look like?

It was his dream to restore perennial metaphysics to catholicism, although he despaired of such a thing in his lifetime it seems I suppose due to the critical attitude of some such a Maritain who tried to put his books on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum and his mistaken assensment (imo) of the iniatory character of the sacraments.

>>13402736
>It was his dream to restore perennial metaphysics to catholicism
Tfw you will never be a member of a perennially restored catholic church.
Why even live?

>That guy who read Guenon but still hasn't attained moksha and even doubts if it is possible
Keep reading and meditating and maybe one day you will "get" it bro...

>>13402825
dude, you're projecting

>>13402828
A little bit maybe, but i got a little "glimpse" of a truth of a traditional order so to speak, and now i feel cocky and want to make Anons feel inferior.

>>13401233
Is Borella worth picking up?

I’m a Christian and thought it’d be cool to see a metaphysical analysis of Christianity

>>13402842
If you like guenon, I really recommend it. Great book.

Pocket related is the same book, under different titles.
Christ the original mystery is the newer cheaper version.

>>13402530
Thank you for your answer anon

>>13401399
To expand on this somewhat.

When someone converts to Islam it is done by proclamation. Firstly they believe inside themselves and the proclamation is then made.
The outward forms of the religion are the reflection of the inward belief, both are necessary.

>>13402363
He does begin with some text selections but he adds explanations at the end of them giving their context and from there moves into a discussion of the historical context of Vedanta and Shankara's ideas. Part of the reason I chose it is that he specifies that he only cites and bases his writing on the works of Shankara and early Vedantins and not later Neovedanta and the late-medieval stuff that sometimes departs from the earlier stuff in certain ways. You might find that you prefer 'Vedanta: Heart of Hinduism' by Torsten

https://archive.org/details/VedantaHeartOfHinduismHansTorwesten/page/n7

If you have any suggestions for what you think would be a better recommendation as an intro text for people to read before reading Vedanta primary sources I'm open to hear them

>dubs itself traditionalism
>believes in pig-disgusting universalism and switching denomination like they do shoes that no traditional religion or society would have accepted

>>13401233
traditionalism is a meme and you larpers are not fooling anyone, have an ounce of self awareness, you're posting on a site that hosts pornography
whose tradition?
from what place and what time?
tradition doesn't exist in a vacuum, none of you fucks even know who Schlegel is, you've just compounded a list of writers that fit your idea of what "traditionalism" means with no bearing how they fit together
all you retards want is to "rebel" against muh degenerates while being chronic masturbators and closeted degenerates yourselves

>>13402837
If you want others who are well meaning and striving to feel inferior it is indeed every meagre glimpse you have got.

>>13401233
https://discord.gg/sJpcEqV

>>13403865
have sex

>>13401373
>James later applied the theories of Rudolf Steiner to the family estate at Kent. In 1939 he travelled to Switzerland to visit the leading exponent of biodynamic agriculture, Dr Ehrenfried Pfeiffer.[3] The outcome of that visit was that he hosted, at his farm in Kent, the Betteshanger Summer School and Conference, the first biodynamic farming conference to be held in Britain.[3] James subsequently coined the term "organic farming"[4] from the concept of "the farm as organism" and has the best claim to being the "father" of organic agriculture [1]. He published the book Look to the Land in 1940, which raises many of the issues current to discussions of organic agriculture. After reading Look to the Land, the philosopher and author Marco Pallis contacted Lord Northbourne and later introduced him to the writings of the Traditionalist (also known as Perennialist) philosophy. Lord Northbourne eventually integrated this thinking into his own writings and life, and became a correspondent with many of the most prominent writers of this school, as well as with Thomas Merton.[5] He was also a frequent contributor to the quarterly journal, Studies in Comparative Religion, which dealt with religious symbolism and the Traditionalist perspective.
holy shit kek

>>13404364
wtf I love organic farming now

>>13401868
What would be the difference between 'living virtuous' and 'living morally'?

>>13404503
According to the traditionalist view of things delineated by Guenon et al morality has to with subjective sentimentality and changes according to culture and era whereas virtuous could be seen as more in accordance with eternal truths that transcend any specific era. I don't remember him making that exact point in connection with the word virtue but that's most likely what his position would be, and what that poster was referencing

>>13404563
He contrasts the moral point of view with the ritual point of view. He considers the ritual point of view superior. I forget which book he discusses this in, perhaps "Initiation and Spiritual Realization", but I'm not sure. "Virtue" is more of an Evola thing, since the root of the word is "Vir" or "man", and thus designates manliness, which is in line with Evola's Kshatriya dominant point of view (i.e. to be virtuous is to be "heroic", strong willed, detached etc).

>>13404563
So if I were to derive my 'morality' from the idea that God is Good(ness) itself, and that things that are 'in God', must be good and things in which God is not present evil, in the same manner as darkness is absence of light. So that to be (morally?) good is to be like God, is rather a case of virtue than of morality? I don't know which Tradition I should adhere to, I've been an atheist for most of my life but started struggling with it since a few years and find myself to be both drawn to and repulsed by Catholicism

>>13403865
Do yourself a favor and quick search for traditionalist school of philosophy. Now realize that it is you that have taken the bait.

>>13404610
Catholicism is based as fuck. Epic churches, epic tradition, non-catholics go to hell ETERNALLY. It's not soft fag shit like protestantism.

>>13404621
Most prot sects are even more hardcore with the whole "everyone but us is going to hell" thing. They aren't traditional, though.

>>13404621
>YEAH ULTRA BASED DEUS VULT XDDD
fucking embarrassing

which tradition should i follow if i want to btfo homosexuals

Read Guenon's Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines and it was so garbage, that I've lost any interest in Perennialism. It has the typical new age hippy attitude of "oah woah, broh. Easterners are like, so much more enlightened than all those misguided silly Europeans, man." On top of that, a lot of the information is outdated, badly argued for and his attempt at prefiguring any criticism by waving it away in a few pages just seems petulant. Very clear, that he wanted desperately to accept a certain viewpoint and will just discount any facts or scholarly argument that goes against it.

Also, the following is from the Linguistics Research Center of the University of Texas at Austin, on Ancient Sanskrit:
>Perhaps around 1000 BC (all dating in prehistoric India is only approximate), editors gathered the ancient poems together and arranged them, together with some more modern material, into ten books according to rules that were largely artificial. They gave the collection the name by which it continues to be known, 'Rig-veda', or 'praise-knowledge'. Other collections came into being, based on this sacred material, and they were given parallel names. [...]
>This vast body of derivative material remains the subject of extensive study by Indologists. However, from the point of view of understanding the earliest Sanskrit text -- the Rigveda itself -- it has always been, and continues to be, crucially misleading.
>Because the poems were put to ritual use by the ancient priests, much of their vocabulary was assumed by the authors of the later texts to refer in some way to ritual activity. The word paśú 'beast, cattle' came to designate a sacrificial victim in texts of the Brāhmaṇas, for example, and juhū́ 'tongue' was thought to mean 'butter ladle'. Abstract words of sophisticated meaning particularly suffered. The compound puro-ḷā́ś 'fore-worship' (from purás 'in front' and √dāś 'worship') acquired the specific sense 'sacrificial rice cake', despite the fact that the word vrīhí 'rice', found in later texts, does not occur in the poems of the Rigveda. The complex noun krátu 'power, intellectual ability' was misunderstood to mean 'sacrifice' by the authors of the commentaries. Similarly, a number of important verbs of abstract meaning were thought by the editors of the Sāmaveda to be related solely to the production of milk, and to refer to cows. Many ancient mistranslations continue to be maintained with unshakeable conviction by Vedic scholars. [...]
>The sophistication of the earliest Indo-European poetry lies buried beneath a mass of inherited misunderstandings that overlay the text like later strata at an archaeological site. Not surprisingly, few Sanskrit scholars today are interested in studying the Rigveda.

So, a lot of the Hindu doctrines that these people champion are literally based on earlier mistranslations.

>>13404652
Greek paganism is pretty good if you want to beat off homosexuals

>>13404664
>oah woah, broh. Easterners are like, so much more enlightened than all those misguided silly Europeans, man
He considers Westerners of antiquity and the Middle Ages the spiritual equals of Easterners. His view only pertains to modern Europeans, and as far as that go, he considers most modern Easterners to be just as bad. Can't reply to the sanskrit/vedas point because I don't know much about that

>>13404669
I want them to suffer for being degenerate faggots, my older brother has a boyfriend. He's a faggot, yet everyone in my family seems to respect him more than me just because he's got a job and looks after our mother in his aids infested faggot home. I need to break their LGBTQASDAFE brainwashing and make them see he's breaking natural law and should be shunned. He's a fucking doctor, and he's treating terminally ill patients with his STD infested hands.
Contemporary society is a fucking clown world, I'm far closer to God spiritually yet I get punished for it?
Honk fucking honk I guess.

>>13404610
If you wanted to be a guenonian, you're somewhat limited to what's available in your area. Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Islam, would all be options. The idea is joining and being initiated into a legit tradition.

Theres usually hindus in large cities, Buddhists probably too. I have no idea to their legitimacy.

Guenon wrote favorably of freemasonry, dont know if he still would, but theres a further option.

Evola never joined a tradition...
Most trads seem to join islam due to its availability and general devoutness.

>>13404689
Sounds like your brother actually is more respectable than you.

>>13404690
Guenon considered Freemasonry an initiatic organization that was complementary to Abrahamic religion. From his point of view there would be no point of being a Freemason if you weren't also a practicing Christian/Muslim/Jew. He also considered the organization to be completely degenerated, but considered the rituals and initiation to still be valid as long as it was done properly.

>>13404664
>Mfw assmad brainlets because so desperate to attack Guénon that they think some misunderstood words in the Vedas having any bear upon the Upanishads and Vedanta that Guénon means when he writes 'the Hindu Doctirnes'; which themselves largely reject ritual and say its not necessary
typical of the degenerated 'academic' mindset

>>13404708
Not him, but holy shit bro proofread your posts, please

>>13404697
That's what I said you retard, and that's what I'm trying to fix. They're wrong for respecting him when he's an active sodomite and wants to spend the rest of his life with a fucking man.

>>13404689
You say you are spiritually closer to God, yet you are obviously attached to your loved ones and the fruits of your actions. Yes, homosexuality is life denying, and thus a sin. But as long as you keep your heart full of hatred and not feel compassion for his situation, you will never reach Liberation.

>>13404719
No I'm saying he is actually respectable. He has a job and is independent. I'm not defending homosexuality, but there are worse things out there, and at least he isn't leeching off his family.

>>13404739
I think you're right. I should probably abandon my faggot loving family and focus on myself and God. I'll explain the situation and hopefully I can convince them to pay for a flat away from them -- that or I'll join a monastic order.

>>13404742
Kek. You're obviously a brainwashed modernist. God hates faggots, actually read Paul. All faggots go to hell for eternity, and they bring it on themselves.

>>13404664
This is a viable criticism. I've heard trads called right wing new agers, lol.
Godwin and Quinn both make the case that Guenon and Theosophy were both attempting the same thing, despite how much guenon hated theosophy.

Guenon is a very specific philosophy of religion, that's how I approach him, which means you have to be careful of the ideas he presents through that lense.

It's similar to Foucault, his history is bad, but the philosophy he presents with his bad history is still valuable in some respects.

I wouldnt ever say, oh you want to learn a specific religion? Pick up guenon.
You read guenon if you like his specific philosophy of religion.

Everyone is aware it's not respected by the dominant secular scholarly philosophies of religion.

Guenon believe in arctic Hyperborea, the ultra-ancients being super advanced intellectually, was against evolution. So if you want to say Guenon was wrong about some things, most will agree.

>>13404706
Makes sense, thank you.

>>13404739
>>13404742
Dont engage

who else here traditionalist but still respect crowley? reading his biography atm and man did he live an exciting life

Coming into this thread late, thanks for the links and recs. I couldnt care less about Evola but the Hindu stuff is of interrrst to me

>>13404844
I'm interested in Crowley and Western Magic. I like Guenon as well.

>>13404763
This amount of hatred you have is far worse than anything your brother has ever done. I pray that you let it go and understand that as long as you cannot learn to feel compassion you really are just looking for an ideology to justify your hatred and Christianity is just your tool for that end. I pray your heart will find peace one day

>>13404844
Crowley hated Theosophists more than Guénon.

The A ∴ A curriculum itself is the most comprehensive introduction and most methodical system of learning yoga, meditation, hermeticism, alchemy etc.

There has never been devised so complete system in English that would prepare the student in as many ways.

Even Evola praised Crowley:
http://www.gornahoor.net/library/EvolaOnCrowley.pdf

>>13404889
Do you practice "Crowleyan stuff" (sorry, don't know the technical term)? Are you involved with his "organization"? Can you talk about your experiences with either of these, if you have any?

>>13404889
>crowleyfag
yikes, don't think we've forgotten that you are the one who endlessly spams the Evola sperm copypasta

>>13404904
>Do you practice "Crowleyan stuff" (sorry, don't know the technical term)

I do agree with the doctrine or Law of Thelema that is Light, Life, Love and Liberty.

Just as I do agree with the philosophy of Nietzsche and certain other thinkers who believe in Freedom of man.

Pic related is Liber Oz and I do agree with every sentence written on it.

>Are you involved with his "organization"?
OTO? It died with Karl Germer

The current Ordo Templi Orentis or "Caliphate" has never had proper authorization directly from Crowley or his successor Karl Germer. As far as I know same goes with A ∴ A ∴.

Even Typhonian OTO is more legitimate than the current OTO led by Bill Breeze.

>Can you talk about your experiences with either of these, if you have any?

I would stay away from them. It has nothing to do with Thelema.

>>13404935
Forgot pic. It is Liber Oz and manifesto regarding the rights of Man.

Will any of this help me find peace?
I've been intending to start meditating but Asthma is preventing me

>>13404925
You deny the magical potency of
lo sperma negroide?

>>13404935
Yeah, but have you done any of his practices on your own, and what is your experience with that?

>>13404925
>>13404947
Guénon would also probably roll in his grave considering Crowley's once banned work "The Scented Garden of Abdullah the Satirist of Shiraz" or "Bagh-I-Muattar" has veiled symbolism of Sufi homosexual rites.

Really depraved stuff.

>>13404942
ehh, I don't know how I feel about this. I think the whole concept of "rights" is bunk

>>13404942
>just be yourself 2: extra-spooky electric boogaloo edition

>>13404955
If you take Book of the Law as serious, accept perhaps that Crowley truly was a prophet in his own right, and accept the Book of the Law, I think it inevitably makes you incapable of adopting any sort of "old aeon" religion from the point of view of Thelema

>49. Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs. Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.

This refers to Golden Dawn ritualism and Freemasonic ritualism. Thelema reconstructs these through Crowley's new attributions and system.

>46. Nothing is a secret key of this law. Sixty-one the Jews call it; I call it eight, eighty, four hundred & eighteen.

Referring to the doctrine of Jewish Kabbalah and Ain (That has gematria of 61)

>49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.

>51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

Referring to Christianity.

>52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.

Referring to Islam.

>53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

Referring to the doctrines of East.

So perhaps think twice before "initiating" yourself to Thelema or any Thelemic current etc.

>>13404999
Crowley seems, by definition, the counter-intitiaion Guenon warned about.

That being said, I like both of them.

>>13405024
The Counter-Initiation is of a purely psychic character, psychic in the sense of a three-tier world in which we have soma (coporeality), psyche, and nous. Their point of view does not go above psyche, and they are only concerned with things of that sphere. I'm very new to Crowley, so I don't know enough to comment. If he was after a metaphysical/noetic realization of any kind that would by definition make him non-counter initiatic. Could still be psuedo-initiatic, in that case. I don't know what his relation, if any, to metaphysics is, however

>>13405024
>Crowley seems, by definition, the counter-intitiaion Guenon warned about.

Does this come as a surprise to you?

>"This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade ‘Know Thyself!’ and taught Initiation. He is ‘the Devil’ of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection."
-Aleister Crowley

Of course he is counter-initiation from the point of view of Guénon: the counter-initiation are literally called the Awliya es-Shaytan = “saints of Satan in Islam/Sufism.

Yes, Crowley did identify with Shaytan/Serpent

>>13405045
I mean, if theosophy is counter-initiation, then how is Crowley not?
How would Theosophy not go beyond the psychic, they're concerned with universals and abstract principles as well?

>>13405046
No, not surprised, lol.

>>13405103
I don't think he considered theosophy counter-initiation. I think he said they were pseudo-initiation that was made by the counter-initiation. The counter initiation, according to Guenon tends not to be recognizable names and organizations. They put up pseudo-initiatic organizations and figureheads as a visible front.

>>13405103
>I mean, if theosophy is counter-initiation, then how is Crowley not?

Crowley does not defile the doctrines. Have you read his version of Tao-Teh-King? It is perhaps the most faithful western versions in regards to the original.

Same goes for other practices. Theosophy went full bonkers claiming all sorts of funny stuff with Acsended Masters etc.

The only claim of Crowley was
1) The authorship of The Book of the Law was from a being called Aiwass and not himself
2) The Aeon of Horus has come and world will be bathed in purifying Fire (Both world wars happened not long after 1904)

The Book of Revelation and symbolism found in it forms the basic blocks of Thelema.

You see, you have to pretty crazy to accept Thelema in the first place, you ever read the Revelation? The bad guys get thrown into lake of fire for all eternity. Crowley identified with the baddies.

>>13405108
So the pseudo-initiation are concerned with metaphysics, but are used as a front for the counter-initiation that is only concerned with the psychic?

Do these CI types not believe in the metaphysic so they use PI to push a false metaphysic to cover their psychic pursuits?

>>13405131
Pseudo initiation distorts metaphysics

>>13405131
>Do these CI types not believe in the metaphysic so they use PI to push a false metaphysic to cover their psychic pursuits?
I don't know, honestly. Guenon just said the initiation of the CI were legit initiations, but they were only of a psychic variety.

>>13405119
I guess I can see what you mean, but he did seem to defile the doctrines. He respected taoism for sure, but what about the whole fly in the face of Muhammed, peck at the eyes of christ business?

He might not be counter-initiation based in the definitions I'm being given, but he did seem to be counter traditional at least.

He was stoked about the aeon of horus, while guenon was bummed about the kali yuga, so they seem pretty diametrically opposed.

>>13405119
>1) The authorship of The Book of the Law was from a being called Aiwass and not himself
Isn't that just "channeling"? There are loads of channeled new age texts. Why would you believe something just because some random channeled entity told it to you?

>>13405141
>>13405148
Fascinating, guess that's what I get for thinking I know more than I do.

Seems like theres a missing piece here. CI has a legit initiation but it only goes to the psychic, they then use the PI to push a twisted version of metaphysics, which imply they believe in metaphysics.

Why if they (CI) believe in metaphysics, and push a twisted metaphysics (PI), do they (CI) stop their initiation at the psychic?

>>13405176
Honestly I don't know. Vexing and obscure questions. This is quite a bit out of my competency.

>>13405160
https://bethelkhem.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/who-was-aiwaz-the-strange-story-of-samuel-jacobs-and-aleister-crowley/

>>13405151
>How Mohammed, who followeth, is darkened and confused by His Nearness to our own Time, so that I say not save with Diffidence that His Word ALLH may mean this or that. But I am bold concerning His Doctrine of the Unity of God, for God is Man, and he said therefore: Man is One. And His Will was to unite all Men in One reasonable Faith: to make possible international Co- operation in Science. Yet, because He arose in the Time of the greatest possible Corruption and Darkness, when every Civilisation and Every Religion had fallen into Ruin, by the malice of the great Sorcerer of Nazareth, as some say, He is still hidden in the Dust of the Simoom, and we may not perceive Him in His true Self of Glory.

With Crowley there is a bit difference how do you understand Christ and his formula of INRI.

Crowley regarded the prophets simply as Magus -type of people who proclaimed their word to the mankind at various stages and various parts of civilization. Thus the word of Gautama was "Anatta", the word of Jesus was "INRI" etc.

Now of course, it should be understood as summarization of their respective doctrines. For example, the doctrine or word of Lao-Tzu was simply "TAO"

But with Crowley he clearly differentiated with the Sorcerer of Nazareth and Jesus Christ.

Same goes for Islam or Muhammad; he clearly revered highly the Sufi doctrines as it is apparent in Bagh-I-Muattar but probably had little to none respect for traditional Islam.

>>13405205
>https://bethelkhem.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/who-was-aiwaz-the-strange-story-of-samuel-jacobs-and-aleister-crowley/
Thanks, I'll save that link for later. Still reading Crowley's biography, so I'll see what it has to say on this first, and then check out your article.

>>13405219
>At first Crowley interpreted the Cairo Working, as he called it, as an astral vision and the Book of the Law an automatic writing. Crowley, who intensely disliked spiritualism, was embarrassed by the Book of the Law and distanced himself from it, but, clearly, it also fascinated him. He doodled on the cover page of the Book. There is a large stain on the first page of the third chapter. He took the Cairo Working seriously enough, however, to inform S.L. Mathers, the Chief of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, that a New Æon had been proclaimed with Crowley to supplant Mathers as the Head of the Order. Mathers’s reply, if he wrote one, is not preserved as far as I know. After some preliminary cabalistic analyses, Crowley ruminated whether to include the Book in his collected works, then promptly lost the manuscript.

You should read how he came to study the text once again. Crowley disliked channeling himself and thought nothing out of the text at first.

>>13405197
I appreciate your input. It's always fun to find and solve the problems in a philosophy (or my understand of it, at least).

>>13405252
I haven't gotten that far in the biography yet. Just read about him getting initiated into 33 degree of Freemasonry while in Mexico. He hasn't gotten his "revelation" yet.

What is the point in pursuing all of this?

>>13405262
Metaphysical knowledge is something we are all after whether we know it or not. Some people pursue the feeling of "completion" in things like sex and other pleasures, but those have no finality to them. The real thing pleasure seekers are after is gnosis, only they don't know it. Plotinus has some great comments on this.

>>13404690
I am not sure I want to be a guenonian, I am barely informed on most philosophy, theology, mysticism, metaphysics and the views of the traditionalist school, far more than your average person yes, but nonetheless my knowledge is quite superficial, I'm studying most of this on my own at home however. I feel a strong draw towards authentic religions (mostly catholicism/orthodox, islam and hinduism) and the ideas of the perrennialists. It will probably take a few months or years of studying before I can truly start to make up my mind, but insofar I don't feel anything for tantra, buddhism or taoism. Metaphysically I lean closest to advaita vedanta and can see some similarities in especially islam, which is why I would consider a 'conversion' to sufi islam most, that being said, it feels so distinct, cultural-wise, but then again catholicism feels as if it is a dead tradition, maybe I'll go with the Orthodoxs

Exactly what is traditional about this pastiche of religion you (in my view erroneously) call traditionalism?

>>13405273
I've studied Orthodoxy for a while. It's a fantastic tradition.

>>13405261
> Just read about him getting initiated into 33 degree of Freemasonry while in Mexico.

I would take it with a grain of salt. Don Jesus Medina who "initiated" him might not have even existed.

Was Crowley knowledgeable about Freemasonry? Most probably. He had extremely deep understanding of the various rituals etc. but that Mexico initiation is just something that he might have came up with and claimed.

It was also where he first created his discontinued magical order "Lamp of Invisible Light", that later developed into the Argentum Astrum.

>>13405288
Tradition comes from tradere which means to pass down. The tradition in question is that of metaphysical knowledge which has been passed down through a variety of channels from prehistory down to the present age.

>>13405296
>I would take it with a grain of salt. Don Jesus Medina who "initiated" him might not have even existed.
Yeah, the book I'm reading mentions that.

>>13405267
I understand.
I'm not sure it's gnosis I'm after, but perhaps its the same thing with another name.
I just seek a state of peace.
Isn't this all a bit picky and choosy though? As if you pick the tradition that you feel best matches you? Something strikes me as insincere about this, but I am an idiot and in no position to cast judgement

Did Guenon ever mention the Crusades? I really would like to know what he thought about it. I remember reading somehwere he pointed a mutual understanding between Westerners and Easterners and said that they even shared their knowledge with each other.

>>13405311
>peace
Knowledge, peace, the Good, etc are all different aspects of the final state that metaphysical initiation aims at. Guenon discusses this in a number of his books. "Peace" refers to the central state, from which you ascend to final liberation.
>Isn't this all a bit picky and choosy though? As if you pick the tradition that you feel best matches you? Something strikes me as insincere about this, but I am an idiot and in no position to cast judgement
I agree with this. It does feel that way. That's why it's best to stick with your own tradition, rather than go shopping for another one. You would only switch to a different one if you didn't have another choice, practically speaking.

>>13405320
> I remember reading somehwere he pointed a mutual understanding between Westerners and Easterners and said that they even shared their knowledge with each other.
*during the medieval ages

>>13405320
Yep. He believed the Crusades to have been how the Knights Templar got their esoteric knowledge in the East. He was a big proponent of the Knights Templar, and considered their downfall to be a spiritual cataclysm for the West. Evola also comments extensively on the Crusades in his "Metaphysics of War", but from his own Kshatriya dominant point of view.

>>13405301
Except you buy into universalism which no one but modernists believe in.

>>13405327
I have no idea what my tradition is to be quite honest. I'm English with mostly celtic heritage. The Church of England seems empty, the Catholic Church seems foreign, most Celtic paganism seems like a hippy larp in contemporary times

>>13405311
>I just seek a state of peace.
Try Zen Buddhism. Ignore all the pop culture bullshit, heavily distorted western trash surrounding it; westerners are completely clueless about the core of Zen. Delve into Rinzai's teachings, mumonseki (gateless gate) and proceed from there.

>Isn't this all a bit picky and choosy though?
Yes, you have to pick one that resonates more with you, but in a sense you will end up following a path that you truly think is the right one. You have to reject other paths. Post-modern secular syncretism is forever a contradiction because it always rejects closing any paths, but then picks by finger which ones to reject while pretending to not be walking in a path when it does so.

>>13405337
Interesting, but what did he say about its negative aspects? Also in what book he said it?

>>13405352
>universalism
*metaphysical* universalism, which ancients did believe in. read plutarch, or plotinus or whatever

>>13405357
I can't remember in what book I read that. I haven't read his book on Christian Esoterism, and I'm sure he has more to say about these things there then the scant references I read.

>>13405288
>>13405301
In the same way metaphysics is beyond physics, traditionalism is supposedly beyond any one tradition. They are traditionalist in the sense that they admire what is, in their mind, similar behind all traditional religions.

But yeah, orthodox members of the individual traditions have issue with Guenon and his cadre, as has been explained elsewhere in this post. Guenon is a specific philosophy of religion that believers think is ancient and skeptics think is constructed.

This point is made in this post several times, and is made every time theres a trad post.

>>13405353
Not the anon you're replying to but more important than an ethnic tradition is that if you look at a particular religion and be able to approach it in a genuine manner, it's important you have some metaphysical thoughts and ideas, no matter how vague, roaming around your mind. You end up stumbling upon traditions as you read through books and talk to people.
But you have to think hard, and never forget to question the premises you stand upon, otherwise you will end up with the typical secular, physicalist, empiricist, nihilistic and hedonistic worldview that most educated young people have. You also have to be careful to not be driven explicitly by a contrarian spirit, where you find yourself looking for tradition just for the sake of validating some sort of frustration you find in the modern world, and when you immerse yourself in it, you explore it superficially with just enough information to reject the empiricist, nihilistic worldview (like one individual has done so in this thread).
If you are going to seek a tradition, you have to accept a wide variety of dimensions of it, read the great writers and sacred books, and understand the different forms it takes throughout history up to modernism, and how it reacted and changed in the modern period. Then you start to think about how it relates to the current world you live in. This is my take on it at least for you to avoid just becoming a contrarian larper.

Tl;dr expand your knowledge and think for yourself, then seek the tradition (important that it is on the singular) that aligns with your thought

>>13405386
>traditionalism is supposedly beyond any one tradition.
To which i'd quote d'Maistre on politics, just as applicable to this theoretical religiosity that claims to be a purer belief than real ones: "a constitution that is made for all nations is made for none: it is a pure abstraction, an academic exercise of the mind, according to some hypothetical ideal, that should be addressed to man, in whatever imaginary realm he inhabits."

>>13405427
Good post. Sometimes I wonder whether I really do hear a calling to a higher truth or if my pride for being authentic in a secular and prosaic world is getting in the way. I fear it may be the latter and pray that it is not.

>>13405427
at the core of it i'm just tired and want to find peace

>>13401233
best one to read if Im a muslim? Dont care about all the Hindu larpers in Traditionalism

>>13405481
I think your point is fair and unfair at the same time.
The trads never advocated for a worldwide single religion. They hated syncretism, so the individual cultures would have their own religion, albeit ones with true metaphysics that are universal.

A university math department is going to teach universal math, but the organization if the university will take part in the material conditions of the local culture.

Truth is truth, so a constitution for the whole world is worthless, but individual constitutions taking equal parts the laws of nature and the individual culture does seem workable.

>>13402203
Oh dude this is a godsend thanks.

>>13405545
>best one to read if Im a muslim?
Nasr maybe, he's respected in islam and academia.
Guenon was a muslim but didnt write much about them.
Schuon wrote about islam but was a syncretist....
Martin Lings?
Most the trads were muslims eventually, so theres a good bit of content for you.

>Dont care about all the Hindu larpers in Traditionalism
You really dont know anything about trad then, cause almost none of them even pretend to be hindu.

are gays allowed to be trad

>>13405545
Martin Lings
Seyyed Hosein Nasr
William Chittick
Titus Burckardt

>>13405580
I'm bisexual and my degeneracy is something I am trying to come to terms with. I want to say yes.

>>13405572
>>13405586
thanks
You really dont know anything about trad then, cause almost none of them even pretend to be hindu.
Yeah I dont i just dont really care about their (or at least renes) discussions of hinduism desu

>>13405599
depends on the tradition you follow
obviously Christianity won't allow it, Islam is a bit less homophobic
iirc the Japanese and Chinese have had homosexual relations in their traditions at various times

>>13405580
By most modern standards, trad would be considered bigoted. So if someone was gay, and didnt hate their homosexuality, I wouldnt recommend allying with trads.

>>13405639
>Islam is a bit less homophobic
Wait, really? What about homosexuality as a death punishment? I do know in Iran it's legal to be transgender, so it wouldn't surprise me. I also get the impression many muslims don't hate gay people per se but just find the homosexual act sinful.

>iirc the Japanese and Chinese have had homosexual relations in their traditions at various times
Yes, I believe zen and other far east buddhist traditions do not pay much attention to sexual relationships, since their focus and morals are framed in very different perspectives from abrahamic religions. I do know Zen has much more emphasis in developing a philosophical, meditative buddhism as opposed to, say, Bhutanese Buddhism which has a wide variety of Gods which are central to their teaching (though I do know japanese Buddhism has gods, just not as much emphasis). So following eastern buddhism might give you a path into traditionalism especially since in the very teachings of the buddha there's really no concern with sexuality. It's a lot more existential if anything, though its way of dealing with existentialism is... weirdly reminiscent, I find, of Wittgenstein, much more so than modern existentialists, or christians with an existentialist flavor like Simone Weil, or Anscombe in a tangential sense (her moral prerogatives for belief in God for example).

>>13405643
I don't seek allies or hatred
I just want to be a better person

>>13405675
The death punishment comes from one hadith which isn't accepted by all muslims e.g. Hanafis

>>13405675
According to sharia it's the act which is punishable, bear in mind there's court and a number of reliable eye witnesses are called to testify.
Whomever says Islam is all cool.with homosexuality is being disingenuous.
It's basically ok to be gay but don't be actually gay, best keep it in the closet and don't act on it, get married to a woman if you like.

>>13405639
>>13405675
I'm this >>13405599 poster. I feel ambivalent towards my homosexual tendencies. I love to suck cock, but I do believe it's a sinful act on the basis that it is life denying. I do find most of what I've read of Traditionalism to be agreeable, and i want to be initiated in a tradition, but I want to join one that I can genuinely dedicate myself fully, and not for selfish and superficial reasons, like validating my sexuality. I also believe sexuality is conditionable and not genetic.

>>13405737
It's all selfish

>>13405737
Might look into occultism. Most groups influenced by Crowley have some homosexuality involved.

>>13405636
>Yeah I dont i just dont really care about their (or at least renes) discussions of hinduism desu

I'm in the same boat somewhat, I'm interested in guenonian christianity, not so much hinduism.
However, all trads recommend guenon, and go read guenon you have to read about hinduism. So I would recommend getting interested.
Besides, the whole idea is that the universal principles are the same in all religions, so him writing about hinduism was more pragmatic than ideological.

>>13405768
>Recommending occultism in a Trad thread
Fuck off. Besides, I find a group that incorporates sex rituals to be cringy af, so Tantra and Vajrayana are out. Actually, scratch out Buddhism entirely, since it's just watered down Vedanta anyway.

>>13405794
god you sound like such a pseud

>>13405794
Trad and occultism are basically attempting the same thing. That's why guenons hatred for theosophy is funny.

Besides, I like the literature of both. Ya nerd.

>>13401331
do you have a pdf? been looking for it for a while

>>13405955
I dont, but the book is available for cheaper under a different title.
Christ, the original mystery.

>>13401470
You haven't read him. He thinks esoteric Islam is literally Hinduism, and Hinduism is Aryan.

If anything he's a much less retarded Savitri Devi.

>>13401812
yea, crypto-Hinduism LARPing as trad Catholic or Sufi Muslim

To the more knowledgable anons in this thread, what do you think of this: https://ocoy.org/dharma-for-christians/upanishads-for-awakening/the-shvetashvatara-upanishad/brahmanishwara/

>>13405690
I'm not aware of this. I'm Hanafi madhab myself and as far as I'm aware the hudud is the same, ie. thrown from cliff or wall dropped on them, if they survive nothing further.

>>13404942
is that a cock superimposed over a septagram? it looks like a cock facing toward you. seriously what is that?

>>13405852
>Trad and occultism are basically attempting the same thing
No. Occultism is anathema to Traditionalism.

>>13406231
occult means hidden, i.e. esoteric. if you take occultism in its more common sense as stuff like summoning, talismans, astrology, divination, etc then it refers to traditional sciences which guenon considered authentic but of secondary importance. it’s definitely not “anathema”

>>13401233
Evola was one ice cool nigga

>>13406231
Sure, obviously I know technically since its anti-modernity, anti-enlightenment, anti-syncretism.

The point of people like Godwin and Quinn is that both are making a perennial claim about a primordial religion, cycles of time, and initiations or transmissions of esoteric truths. This makes the underlying structure of trad and occult somewhat similar when that is ironically not shared with orthodox religious traditions as noted elsewhere in this thread.

Guenons connection to theosophy through Papus makes this clearer despite his hatred for it.

I get what you're saying but you're spitting hairs when it's obvious what I meant.

>>13406237
>occult means hidden, i.e. esoteric
Occultism is not synonymous with esotericism, it's misleading to attempt to rationalize the language of the terminology in this manner.
In both Islam and Christianity the occult practices, such as divination, are prohibited by the law.

>>13406991
The academic definition of occultism is western esotericism in modernity.
I get what you're saying, but I think a more accurate approach would be that esotericism as a term is somthing trads project on religion a lot more than it actually shows up in the religious traditions themselves.

>>13406991
Not all forms of occultism are restricted in Islam. The restrictions are very precise and specific. Talismans, for example, are a big part of Islamic esoterism. Forms of divination like astrology and palmistry also play a major role. Guenon has an article on palmistry.

Islam is more Western than Christianity

>>13407043
How?

>>13407043
There literally wouldnt be a "west" without christendom.

>>13407051
The inner/greater jihad and the outer/lesses jihad are very compatible with Traditional Aryan culture. Modern Islam focuses almost entirely on the the latter.

>>13407043
Anything monotheistic and priestly cannot be Western. The twice-born Aryan knows himself to be a demigod, his own law-giver, his own priest, his own spiritual center, imbedded in his own private Tradition and hereditary nobility. Mass religions, which is practically synonymous with Semite religions, have none of this and can have none.

Anyone know of hindu criticisms of Guenon and Traditionalism?

>>13407078
You are looking at a very particular angle of western culture there.

>Among those who came to meet her was the same Friar Richard who had been responsible for the abundant fields of beans; as Joan would later say, he initially approached her cautiously while sprinkling holy water, which seems to have amused her: she called out, "Approach boldly, I shall not fly away".

>>13406138
Are you surprised of the Phallic symbolism? Pic related is Crowley's signature. It is more than obvious that the first letter of Aleister is a penis -type of symbol.

The symbol you have highlighted is "Mark of the Beast" found in Crowley's "Liber V"

The symbol consists of Sun and Moon conjoined (The circle with a dot in the middle represents Sol and under it is the Moon)

The Sun and Moon co-joined with ‘2 witnesses’.
The 2 witnesses of the Revelation.

So that is the meaning of your symbol.

>>13407802
Crowley was such a child. Who signs their name as a penis? Austin Powers?

Hes cool tho, I want to know his thought better. So influential in the occult.

>>13408199
I've always found Thelema extremely interesting. I also like the works of Kenneth Grant, who explored the "Tunnels of Set" and Ufo type of stuff mixed with Thelemic doctrines.

At the same time, I also understand that especially the works of Kenneth Grant are everything what Guénon talked about infra-psychic forces and counter-tradition.

The main tenets of Kenneth Grant (who was a secretary of Crowley) is the Magician to explore Mauve-Zone, a state between sleep and awakening.

I've also noticed that with a lot of New Age people, like Kenneth Grant also, they have this obsession with the dog-star Sirius. The various ufo-contactees all claim to have some sort of Sirius-connection. Kenneth Grant even went so as far to claim that Argentum Astrum, or Silver Star also stands for Sirius Star.

I still consider these books extreme interest of mine, among with "Zos Kia Cultus" developed by Austin Osman Spare.

I feel a bit emasculated reading only traditionalist writers such as Guénon, Schuon etc. even though I am bound to agree with them 90% of the time, but at times I come back to Crowley, Evola and more Tantric type of approach regarding the world.

Theosophy on the other hand is Buddhism or Hinduism for eunuchs.

>>13408199
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=335Qnh-GRcA

>>13408266
I'm a fan of Kenneth grant as well, I collect his books, osman spare also. Havent dug into them much, due to my limited knowledge of Crowley.

Have you read levenda's book of Grant? Really great overview.

Even though it isnt accurate, I see Guenon as the Indo-Aryan spirituality due to his hinduism, and Crowley as babylonian due to his egyptian and qabalahistic influence.

Chumbley is another individual influenced by grant, took it into Trad Withcraft.

Bertiaux took grant/crowley into voodoo, which is interesting as well.

>>13408294
>Have you read levenda's book of Grant? Really great overview.

You mean The Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant, and the Typhonian Tradition?

I've read it, and quite frankly, I found it quite crazy. Even crazier than Grant. It does have some interesting parts, but I think Levenda got carried away and made connections where they do not exist. It is a shot in the dark.

The thing with Chumbley, Bertiaux for me is that it is too much talk, too much symbolism, and way too complicated.

Aesthetically I understand why Chumbley might be of extreme interest to some, but I come back to Crowley and Guénon because they rarely talk bullshit and go straight to the point.

Same way in traditionalist writing I dislike Schuon and Charles Upton. Schuon can talk
for 20 pages of nonsense of a thing that Guénon summarizes in few lines.

>>13402603
If it weren't for Guenon I might have remained Catholic (and that was hell for me). I owe my conversion ("reversion") to Islam to him. Alhamdulillah.

>>13408408
I dont disagree with any of this.
Guenon and Crowley are much dryer than most would guess give their reputation, not that it's at all a criticism. I like them for similar reasons to yours.

Bertiaux is absolutely out there, art is so tied up with what hes doing.

To be fair, Kenneth Grant gets wild with the qabalistic correspondences, so I think a good deal of the craziness comes from him.

>>13408408
>>13408473
Another thing interesting to me, given how opposit Guenon and Crowley can be, is that they both endorsed Taoism heavily.

>>13408473
Have you seen the Bertiaux letters he sent to G.M Kelly? I personally like G.M Kelly, he bashed Grant in numerous articles and called him a lunatic back in the 90s

http://www.gmkelly.com/bertiaux.html

Pic related is the letter Bertiaux sent to Kelly. It is seriously some deranged and comical stuff:
>For one thing the F-H OTO is pre-Crowley - it is concerned with RAW ENergy! We are not a history club or a nostaglia-buffs' coffee shop by any means -

>WE are out for sheer power & good times - Fuck the goody-goody worship of the goddess - shit in her Face - I say - CHORONZON!

>>13408486
Is there anyone Kelly doesnt bash?

Kelly seems overly dogmatic and spiritually pompous, if I'm being honest. Seems to know his shit, and takes it seriously. Not of much interest to me other than to see what an orthodox thelemite would be like. I dont know many into thelema to be orthodox, really. What do you like about him?

I love this letter from Bertiaux. I like bertiaux and his thelemic voodoo deal. I like david beth as well and that whole cadre talks about guenon a lot. Never heard bertiaux talk about guenon, but I wonder if they got it from him.

Plus you get more of the lovecraft element from grant through bertiaux, which i like as well.

>>13408481
Guénon was paranoid when it came to Crowley and accused him of stuff that is just ridiculous.

Here is for example letter of Guénon send to Evola where he claims:
>Actually, he went to Berlin to play the role of secret adviser to Hitler who was then at his beginning. It is probably this that had given rise to certain tales about the Golden Dawn, but in reality it was only about Crowley, because it does not seem that a certain English colonel named Etherton, who was then his “colleague”, had ever had the least relationship with that organisation.

>A little later, Crowley founded the Saturn-Lodge in Germany; have you ever heard of it? There he called himself Master Therion, and his signature was to mega Therion (the Great Beast), something that in Greek gives exactly the numeric value 666.

This is the most absurd thing of Crowley being some sort of secret advisor to Adolf Hitler, because even Crowley's secretary Karl Germer, and who succeeded him in the A. A. after Crowley's death, was put into concentration camp for being associate of the high-ranking freemason Aleister Crowley.

Did you know that the American offshoot lodge, unauthorized OTO called "The Solar Lodge" robbed the widow of Karl Germer? Germer did not give permission to continue the OTO or A A activities in America: so after Karl died, the Solar Lodge members came to the house of the widow, drugged him sedatives and stole all the Crowley stuff that Germer had owned.

Most of the original manuscripts, including the Abramelin talismans, were owned by this renegade group. The original ritual robes of Crowley too etc.

Most of this stuff burned in the Solar Lodge fire and in the aftermath what became to be known as the "boy in the box" case. I consider these people extremely counter-initiative group considering they had no direct auhorization, except from Ray Burlingame, who was early member of Choronzon club before joining Agape lodge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Lodge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_in_the_Box_(Vidal,_California)

>>13408515
This is some wild business. Thanks.
I dont know what to make of it all.

I figure Guenon and Crowley are directly counter to each other, just even in terms of spiritual vibration really.

>>13405599
Fuck you. You're a disgusting creep.

Occult/crowley

>>13408266
>I feel a bit emasculated reading only traditionalist writers such as Guénon, Schuon etc. even though I am bound to agree with them 90% of the time, but at times I come back to Crowley, Evola and more Tantric type of approach regarding the world.
Are you me?

>>13408408
>Same way in traditionalist writing I dislike Schuon and Charles Upton. Schuon can talk
>for 20 pages of nonsense of a thing that Guénon summarizes in few lines.
YESssssss, I couldn't agree more

Has anyone here read Schwaller de Lubicz? I've been wanting to read him. His work on Egyptian symbolism seems like it might be reminiscent of Guenon's work on symbolism.

Very good thread I’m proud of you /lit/

>>13404844
>anglo
>degenerate
>literally a fed
that's a hard no from me, bud

>>13410360
being an international agent sounds fun as hell though

does anybody actually take this stuff seriously?

>>13411139
>not realizing Guénon was right about everything

>>13411139
Some people do, yes.
Some very seriously.

>>13411128
is that a masonic lodge or some other offshoot like the martinists

Why just mentioning Sedgwick causes so much butthurt amongst tradicionalists?

>>13411917
Mainly followers of Schuon because he exposed their weird Bloomington cult. I personally enjoyed his book and plan on reading his other book on Western Sufism

>>13411917
Been mentioned several times in this thread, no one cared.

>>13411936
>Been mentioned several times in this thread, no one cared.
Not here in particular. Just noticed that when I googled him.

reminder: if you consider yourself trad and you support capitalism you're a retard

>>13411951
The contradiction is so fundamental that I don't think any trad in their right mind would actually support capitalism.

>>13411951
>>13411973
I'm not trad, but I dont think this is true.
Traditional societies allowed ownership of means of production. Sheep herders owned and sold sheep, potters owned and sold pottery.

What you're really talking about is consumerism and industrialization rather than ownership of property.

>>13411981
Well, one could also add the caveat that landed property was by and large owned by a hereditary aristocracy, with the exception of sacred temples and cities. The hereditary character of land was really important for the stability of society.

>>13412006
I dont know enough about all trad societies, but I wouldnt be suprised.

There was trade of good in the ancient sumeria, iirc. While I know this isnt considered "capitalism." It is ownership and sale of goods.

I dont think guenon was advocating for communism or any leftist style society, most put him firmly on the right wing.

I don't know enough to say, but surely anti-industrial.

>>13412006
>>13412021
In a caste society (which guenon seems to be in favor of), I would assume some have the privilege of ownership. This would move it away from the democratic nature of modern capitalism where all can have ownership.

Makes me wonder. Does anyone know Guenons take on property rights and markets?

>>13412037
There is a chapter on money in Crisis of the Modern World, and also on the traditional attitude to work.

>>13412021
Native American and other shamanic societies were traditional going by the definitions of Guenon, Evola, Schuon et al, and can be considered closer to communism.

What are some trad mysticism books with elements about astral travel

>>13412118
Native Americans aren’t philosophical materialists and don’t subscribe to a dialectical theory of history and social classes.

>>13412097
>There is a chapter on money in Crisis of the Modern World, and also on the traditional attitude to work.
Great to hear, I own this book, havent read it yet. I'm rereading Hindu Doctrine currently.

>can be considered closer to communism.
Wasnt it still caste based and gendered. You had shamans priests, warriors, women tended to the children, large emphasis on honor, etc.
Not exactly the leftist style communism you see pictured.
I don't see natives as particularly focused on equality.
I know schuon considered the native americans trad, but did guenon?

I see you point, however.

>>13412130
I would look into theosophy or occultism.

Trads focus on metaphysical realization and would probably consider astral work as a form of mysticism (taking place on a religious plane) which they disrespected.

>>13412137
>but did guenon
Yes, he was glad that Schuon was doing research on Native Americans in line with traditional philosophy. This was before he realized that Schuon was starting his own little universalist cult, but Guenon did consider Native American religion traditional. They are largely shamanistic, I believe, which is a legitimate traditional category.

>>13412154
Good to know, thank you.
Do you have any interested in this area yourself?
Anything you've gained from native american studies?

>>13412165
I haven’t gotten around to studying it myself, though I am somewhat curious about it. I can’t recommend any books on the subject, unfortunately.

>>13412168
No worries, I have my hands full with Advaita, Guenon himself, and the Christian Guenonians.

>>13412168
>>13412178
What are your current areas of study?

>>13412021
I don't know about industry, but (high) technology would not in itself be either trad or non-trad, although industry and technology can easily lead to the non-trad issue of quantity over quality (and various other issues).
Concerning capitalism, it depends again on what you mean. If you are talking about the typical American mentality consisting of greed, running after profits, overtly hard focus on 'work', consumerism,... then of course it is not trad in any way, but to me it seems that all true traditional societies resembled something close to ancap (in that the markets were mostly free - even if it was only the result of the ruling powers' lack of control on the market transactions). A few remarks must be made here: rather than the individual, the family operates as the smallest economic unit (not always) and indeed, most land was owned by aristocrats who could lend their land to others. During the Roman kingdom and early Republic the pater familias had the right to do on his property whatever he wanted, 'the law' could not infringe his property (except sometimes by example when the father had killed his son he might had to pay some kind of fine and then again often to the gods, not to the state). You must understand that there are no 'earthly laws' or 'rights' existing on themselves, they are mostly contractual rules that a community makes to stay in agreement. The only laws that are real in themselves are those that are truely Divine and for those you will be 'judged' by the most high judge. Of course it's debateable wether or not earthly laws passed by rulers with divine authority are more than spooks or not. I would consider myself to be an anarcho-monarchist or even rather an anarcho-theocrat, it sounds LARPier than it is

>>13412188
Mainly antiquity, but I’m a bit all over the place. Last book I finished was The Greek Alexander Romance, which was full of the sort of symbolism Guenon expounds in his Symbols of Sacred Science and Lord of the World. It was a fascinating read. The figure of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran is almost certainly based on Alexander’s portrayal in this text. I also recently read the Theogeny of Hesiod and Works and Days, with a similar intention of studying the symbolism. My impression, actually, was that over all Ovid is more profound. I’m generally coming around to Evola and the UR group’s high estimation of Roman civilization and plan on reading more on them. Currently I’m reading Maimonides’ Guide for the Perplexed which is a metaphysical exposition of the Bible by a medieval Jew. His explanation of Biblical terminology is great, but I feel like he too much interprets Biblical imagery as merely figurative, and is lacking the conception of the “symbolic”. Still, you could say that, in a sense, he represents the radical “Advaita” position relative to Judaism.

>>13412212
>(high) technology would not in itself be either trad or non-trad
I heard Schuons crew talked about how metal just seethes evil energy.

>American mentality consisting of greed, running after profits, overtly hard focus on 'work', consumerism,... then of course it is not trad in any way
Undoubtedly

>seems that all true traditional societies resembled something close to ancap
I like the recent work on combining austrian econ and aristocracy. Hoppe, Moldbug, and Land. However, I dont know that guenon would like ancap at all.

>the family operates as the smallest economic unit
Yeah, caste based patriarchy I would imagine.

>pater familias had the right to do on his property whatever he wanted, 'the law' could not infringe his property
>The only laws that are real in themselves are those that are truely Divine and for those you will be 'judged' by the most high judge.
Religious aristocracy would be Guenons judges and rulers. Corporatism, all corporations in line with state (theocratic in this case) power, is somthing that comes to mind.

>anarcho-monarchist or even rather an anarcho-theocrat
Any literature on this?

>>13412245
Sounds great, pretty out of my depth. My greek knowledge is basically platonist at this point. I think all that detail work your doing will be beneficial though.

>I’m generally coming around to Evola and the UR group’s high estimation of Roman civilization and plan on reading more on them.
It might be out of line here, but I really love the protestant conspiracy of the catholic church and roman civilization being a carry forward of babylonianian civilization and paganism. It seems slightly founded, due to egyptian and sumerian civilizations interrelation to greek civilization and modern scholars putting the rise of civilization at sumer.

I have an interest in Catholicism so it evola/guenon allows me to view it through Indo-European lense, while the babylon conspiracy allows me to tie it up in egypt/babylon and their influence on occultism.

>>13412432
So the end of the kali yuga is in 2025?

>>13412432
That isn’t a traditional diagram of the Yugas, btw. That’s the New Age “evolutionary” model, where we gradually evolve out of the Kali Yuga back to to the Dwapara and so on until we reach the Satya. The traditional model is “cataclysmic”. The closing of the Kali Yuga marks the return to the Golden Age (Satya Yuga) in more or less sudden and extreme fashion. I think the “evolutionary” model might be traced back to the Jains, some of whom held such a view, but its prevalence nowadays I think is mainly from a book by Sri Yukteshwar on astrology, if I’m not mistaken. But if anyone thinks I am mistaken here, I’m to dialogue and correction and would like to hear your views.

>>13412502
open to dialogue*
>>13412491
It’s probably from some new age website. There have been lots of attempts to calculate the Yugas and fit them to our timeline. I don’t think there is a definitive answer. If you want to see a genuine attempt, check out Alain Danielou’s “While the Gods Play”. Should be a pdf on libgen, and it’s toward the end of the book where he presents the figures. I can’t vouch for its accuracy, but it seems like he knows what he’s talking about.

>>13412502
>>13412523
Thank you.
If you felt like writing any more about the specifics of the kali yuga, or any interesting points, I would read it.

>>13412502
>>13412523
>New Agers come up with a descending-ascending model of the Manvantara
>Places our current time on the tail end of the Kali Yuga, with the mid-point of the Yuga around the end of Late Antiquity
>Five more years until the end of the Yuga
>Meanwhile, feminism, multiculturalism, globalization of communication and capital, capitalist-egalitarian-democratic imperialism/colonization, and LGBT+ faggotry are all at an all time high with no end in sight and that's a good thing
All the work of the counter-traditionalists. I must say, it's pretty clever.

>>13412631
They didn’t so much come up with it, as adopt it. It did exist in antiquity, but it’s not a traditional Hindu belief. I think it comes from Jains, iirc (it’s discussed I think in Thomas Mcevilly’s The Shape of Ancient Thought) and they have LOADS of views that you could consider untraditional. For example, their version of reincarnation is the crude kind that really resembles theosophy, they are philosophical atomists, have a puritanical morality etc. The book I mentioned has a lot of interesting info on them, and Alain Danielou, who I mentioned before also critiques them extensively.

>>13412669
>puritanical morality
I wouldn't put that in a list of characteristics about Jainism. Their rejection to cause any harm towards any living creature is one of the tenets of their thought.

>>13412691
I mean, sorry, I don't think I made it clear. I mean that it's such an important part of their religion that it deserves to be emphasized separately.

New thread, when?