/lit/ - Literature

>>13349972
You mean about how a bunch of old white guys made laws about something they know absolutely nothing about, to the extent that there are stipulations that are actually impossible to adhere to and will, in bad situations lead to any number of preventable deaths?
Where's the debate there?

Literally threatening to kill people if they don't get their way. The definition of terrorism. I don't see why we should show these people any sympathy

Which side anon?

I support abortion because, like Gollum clutching the ring as he falls into Mt. Doom, they end their own accursed bloodlines with their madness.

>>13349972
>homicide, robbery, rape is still going to happen why have laws lol

Any decent primer on ethics can be extrapolated upon to form good arguments on abortion.
Abortion is identical to infanticide, and is murder, but should still be incentivized for low-iq people for both eugenic and economic reasons, up to the point when gene-editing actually becomes feasible.

>sanctity of life
*ahem* spook

there i btfo all the uneducated rednecks there is nothing else to debate

>>13349992
I hope this is ironic

>>13350007
Pro-life but I always doubt my opinions. Hence the search for more literature on both sides.

>>13350019
The argument that banning abortion leads to women having abortions through dangerous methods is a cause for concern, but if you look at it the way you do, maybe we're ridding the world of idiots who would risk their own life trying to get rid of a kid.

should women be allowed to have abortions if they are raped by a criminal and impregnated?

>It's my body, it's my choice
Refute this /lit/

>>13350029
Lol so basically the gollum analogy from the anon above?

>Drumpfs interment camps are literally genocide!
>Killing millions of babies each year isn't though

>>13350059
Women are property

retards see abortion as killing a cute innocent baby. i see the baby growing into just another tasteless bourgeois retard. so yea i am all for abortion.

Broke: Absolutely no abortion
Woke: Her body, her choice
Bespoke: What race is it?

>>13349992
How the fuck did you manage to travel through time, late 2000s liberal?

>>13349992
shit tier bait

>>13349972
>Banning abortion won't be effective because doing so will lead to women seeking out other means of aborting their children anyway
>Guns shouldn't be banned because criminals will find other ways to obtain them anyway

Are the two sides in agreement??

>>13350048
>I hope this is ironic
No. If you think the Alabama anti-abortion law is in any way reasonable you're a moron. People will actually die. Entropic pregnancies can not be replanted, non-viable pregnancies will kill a woman if they're not terminated, etc, etc, etc.
It's sheer idiocy, and if you think it's worth a debate at all, then reevaluate your life.

>>13350060
If you consider emotionless realpolitik similar to a meme fiction analogy, yes.
The last thing this planet needs is more third-world-level IQ humans from broken homes.
Raising your own healthy, intelligent children in a functioning family should be considered a civic duty.

>>13350096
Who's going to concede their position? It's the same line of thinking.

>>13350096
Abortion should be legal because it would end the bloodlines of minorities and Liberals
Guns should be legal because an armed citizen body is key to a functioning Republic

Let them drown in the coals they reap on their own head. Abortion clinics on every street corner. Rip and Tear

>>13350055
SOMEBODY ANSWER ME

>>13349972
the dragons of eden by carl sagan
pretty much solved the whole fucking problem back in the 70s

>>13350138
>>13350055
the argument hinges on whether or not we consider abortion infanticide. by the most common ethical systems, we wouldn't say rape validates an infanticide.

>>13350138
Shouldn't be allowed. Can demand the death penalty on anybody who is traumatizing to me?

>>13350055
Regardless, woman should have no say in the matter regarding who, if anyone gets aborted.

>>13350138
There should either be absolutely no abortion or a finely tuned eugenics system; in the former, she should be forced to bear the rape baby, in the latter, the rapist would never have been born in the first place

>>13350158
Summary of his argument?

>>13350138
No, give birth to it and then throw it off a cliff.

>>13350059
The "right to control your body" is actually a really bad argument because treats your body as if it was property. Ownership does not give you the right to kill innocent people who you find on your property, and you're liable to held responsible for anyone who injures themselves while on your property. You shouldn't have any right to expel an innocent person from your property if you know that doing so would result in their death.

The worst part about this argument is that the people who put it forward never hold to it consistently, or at least they're just not thinking it through. Nobody argues that we should stop people from killing themselves or masturbating in front of a preschool, but people who engage in those activities are just doing whatever they want with their body. Everyone supports at least some restrictions on speech but that's also violation of bodily autonomy.

>>13350178
Take the baby to Taiwan and hide in Hong Kong

If I ever met a woman I knew had an abortion, I wouldn't ever acknowledge her presence. I wouldn't reply to any communication from her, I would try to walk right threw her, I would turn off the lights if she was the only one in the room. She would be a complete non person to me

>>13350190
absolutely based

>>13350182
It's freedom of bodily autonomy/speech up until it affects another individual. A baby may be inside of you, but it's a separate entity you'd be affecting.

>>13350055
I don't want to live in a society that kills the children for the crimes of their progenitor. I'm really tired of seeing this question because it's nothing more emotional manipulation. Either the child is human or it's not, it's either wrong to kill innocent humans or it's not.

>>13350190
Create a culture of shunning women who have had abortions. The new caste system where these criminals are the pariahs and untouchables.

>>13350201
But it's just a clump of cells. It has no nerves or anything to be considered "alive" or "human"

>>13350206
but if you let the child live, it'll be fatherless and may grow up a wreck in an unstable household

>>13350190
Can't trust a haunted pussy.

>science (wich is the only way to know truth) claims life starts at conception
>abortion literally means murder your OWN kid is okay because "i was horny i make a mistake -_-' xDDD"

>>13349972
Kant's Metaphysics of Morals

>>13350213
just kill woman who have abortions instead

>>13350190
It'd probably be reciprocal if you ever met a woman.

>>13350224
Then why not go into economically challenged neighborhoods and hand out sterilizations?

>>13350224
From the moment of conception it is a distinct human organism that is in the state of development. That is by definition a human being. I can even bust out the embryology textbooks if you like me to prove it scientifically.

>>13350228
Do you think we should kill everyone who doesn't have a father or lives in an unstable household?

>>13350231
Heh. I'm going to use this, going forward.

>>13350246
It's best to not have any contact with damned souls

>>13350246
Women aren't capable of sincere beliefs or actions. The are merely controlled by their hormones. Literal machines for producing children.

>>13350252
>Do you think we should kill everyone who doesn't have a father or lives in an unstable household?
yes, i do think we should kill black people

>A woman in an unstable position will be burdened by a child
>The child will not receive the proper care and fostering
>Abortions are beneficial to both the mother and child

Pathetic attempt at making it seem like pro choice is for the baby. We should help more children by sterilizing the poor population of Africa.

>>13350264
Well then be honest and up front instead of hiding behind arguments about rape and bodily rights or "clumps of cells."

>>13350235
Ha. That guy is unattractive. OF COURSE, he would support that opinion.

>>13350269
I think the child would rather be alive then dead.

>>13350269
The future of the unborn isn't determined or set in stone. They could grow up to be good productive people or not. If we're killing people because they're growing up in unprosperous homes then why aren't you targeting the already born kids who we know live in such circumstances?

>>13349972
read the judith jarvis-thompson paper and the Marry Anne Warren paper and realize the case for abortion rights is pretty weak

>>13350287
This.
At what stage of a human's life are we allowed to kill him or her. It's arbitrary to say that 5 months is any more allowable than 20 years.

>>13350279
The left is oversocialized and exclusively uses dissociation propaganda. It's extremely effective against them. Simply post an image of someone with low social capital who vaguely supports something you are associating with and suggest that this means you are both equivalent in the eyes of outsiders. Worse, you literally ARE that person. Presto, you now get people wanting to disassociate with the thing.

>>13350307
There are considerable differences between 5 month olds and 20 year old. Have sex.

I wish I was aborted

>>13350323
Does having more experiences make someone's life more valuable? Why is it okay to kill a child, but not an adult? Abortion is an act of murder that is grounded on an arbitrary premise that exiting the vagina give you worth.

>>13350287
>why aren't you targeting the already born kids who we know live in such circumstances?
People tend to get wrapped around an axel when you start killing kids, anon.
Just incentivize having their parents sterilized permanently, and them temporarily.
You'll sift out poor time preferences in two or three generations. EZPZ.

>>13350276
>don't leverage Machiavellian principles to get your way
I wouldn't never do that, trust me. :^)

>>13349992
>a person's ability to hold an opinion on a matter is dependent on something they cannot choose to be
Sexist.

>muh black market abortions

Lmao do people take that argument seriously?

"who cares" -me, My Diary Desu

>>13349972
A Personal Matter by Kenzaburo Oe maybe?

>>13350352
I hope women get black market abortions. The chance of the woman dying goes up exponentially. More dead roasties is always good news.

>>13350334
>Does having more experiences make someone's life more valuable?
They are phenomenally distinct, incel. a 20 year old isn't just a 5 month old with lots of anecdotes.

>>13350352
Pro-choice people take a lot of very bad arguments seriously. We don't need to make robbery illegal because people are just going to keep robbing others, and they might get hurt in the process.

>>13350357
>advocating for killing babies
do not have sex

>>13350059
Make better choices with your body.

>>13350379
>thinking there is inherent value to human life when it's mostly comprised of people like yourself or worse

>>13350391
you only degrade yourself by posting such things

>>13350357
Then what qualities of a human of any age above 9 months makes him or her have more worth than one in the womb?

>>13349972

Read the Romans

>>13349997
>Parasites complaining about parasites

>>13350484
Kek.

Abortion should be legal but only if you get it first term honestly. Anything past that is too far. We should also add on proper sex education courses mandatory in school that actually talk about contraceptives, the emotional weight of fornication, the actual risks of fornicating with contraception, and other things.

>>13350055
Yes, but the court system is slow and a bunch of #metoo esque cases will put a lot of innocent people in jail.

>>13349972
>B-but banning guns will stop "mass" shootings!

>>13349997
that's a terrible comparision
it's like saying a car is the same as a plane because they both got drivers, people in it, windows, are made of metal, have wheels etc. (the img doesn't say fetus is the same as cancer, but I guess it implies that, and even if it doesn't, that's at least what some people will get from it, out of context like that)
cancer is a clump of cells, an >uncontrolled process<, it just happens without meaning/information/sequence, it just propagates itself disorderly, erratically etc. it's a disease, or whatever is the right term for it
a fetus is a >controlled process< with information (dna) and meaning. it's the beginning of life

>>13350059
>it's my body too - the infant

>>13350103
Absolute brainlet. The only exception for an abortion is if the mother's life is in mortal danger. Let's not address HOW someone gets to where they need an abortion, i.e., accident (your fault, take responsibility), rape (murder isn't justified by rape/two wrongs don't make a right - give it up for adoption dumb ass), being a whore, degeneracy, etc. etc. Keep doing your mental gymnastics in order to convince yourself that infanticide is in some way your, or anyone's, right

>>13350190
What if that person was your boss at work? Good luck holding on to your job.

>>13350190
>threw
Third world nigger or american education?

>>13350326
Actually the only good post in this entire thread.

Even tho OP is a faggot who doesn't care about literature on the abortion debate, I enjoyed Hills like White Elephants by Hemmingway

>>13350190
Very based

>>13349972
Abortions would be tolerable if they were used for actual eugenics programs instead of a dumb latte HR thot enabler.

>mandatory abortions for unplanned pregnancies would have improved /lit/ %100
prove me wrong

>>13350573
If they want to sour our professional relationship by sharing a fact like that, let them. It shouldn't be considered a privilege to not be forced to be around whores and murderers, but that's just me. You have to have values if you are going to respect yourself as a person. If I make the type of people that would get angry at me for this mad, I must be doing something right
>>13350624
Sorry, I'm drunk and angry

>>13350366
>We don't need to make robbery illegal

Actually, what if we were to legalize robbery? Make it a government regulated profession, you'd need to pass a 3 month "how to rob" course and receive a robbery license, give it a more severe tax rate than normal, all robberies will have to be reported by the robber and robbee. There would be a monthly list of future robberies and any unlicensed robbers would be subject to criminal prosecution and they'd be targeted by licensed robbers, who would receive a cut of any recovered stolen capital. That way business owners would be able to plan for losses from theft and we would have a whole industry for unqualified individuals who have difficulty maintaining a normal job for whatever reason. People are gonna steal anyway, might as well make them pay taxes.

>>13350955
This lost exemplifies the liberal belief that commoditization of an action makes it moral.

All of this abortion bullshit simply originates from the ever increasing lack of responsibility that women face in modern life.

>I want to divorce my husband whenever I want to!
>I want to have as many relationships as I want to!
>I want to fuck whomever I want to, no strings attached!
>I want the man who fathered my children to take care of them even if I divorce him without reason!
>I want the government to take care of me if I become a single mom!
>I want the government to finance my anticonceptive methods!
>I want the government to give me access to abortions in case I fuck up!
>I want the government to give me FREE access to abortions so I can virtually use them as an anticonceptive method!
etc. etc.

Of course, like most modern malaises, this has ultimately its root in the relentless development of technology.

>>13349972
A parallel world where women could flip their own fertility switch at will would undoubtedly view abortion as barbaric. Abortion rights are a rationale for a convenience. We do the same with the slaughter of animals and our consumption of meat.

>>13351165
>women could flip their own fertility switch at will
That's already the case with the myriad contraceptive methods we've got you fucking imbecile

>>13351175
so really abortion should only be available to women that aren't on contraceptives and got raped by a black or Mexican man?

>>13351175
Yet rape babies and unwanted children still exist. I'm talking about an innate ability that would take literally zero effort whatsoever, so the woman would basically have to decide herself that she wants to make herself fertile, rather than temporarily choosing to be infertile via an external item.

>>13351186
Abortion should only be available if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life or if the baby is gonna come out retarded

>>13351194
Fascist!

>>13351196
u w0t m8

>>13351194
why no allowance for rape babies but for the mentally handicapped?

>>13351202
How do those two compare?

>>13351210
We should harvest retards like we harvest pigs desu

>>13351201
Um sweetie, I shouldn't have to show you how ableist you're being right now
Educate. Yourself.

>>13351221
Sorry :(

are you niggas seriously gonna sit here and tell me that you give a SINGLE FUCK about dead fetuses? I thought you hated people? why don't you care this much when people get gunned down or blown up?

The kind of woman who would consider getting an abortion is the kind that should never be allowed to procreate in the first place. Society wins and the unborn wins by not living long enough to be abused by his whore of a mother.

>>13349972
“But gun laws will stop people from getting guns”

>>13351311
Because abortion affects everyone, not just the fetuses

>>13351311
Are you going to tell me you give a single fuck about women who abort? lmao

>>13351313
Tbh this is the best argument in favor of abortion.

Things burgerfats are retarded about:
- telco monopolies
- healthcare
- tuition
- abortion & thumpers
Virtually every other civilized country has figured those ages ago, to obvious benefit. Only fatlords are the drooling retarded baby, still lost in their smoke and mirrors of political lobby 101 for toddlers.

This is counterweighted by:
- being world police
- open carry in some states
- cheap gas, burger and coke

Women should be allowed an abortion, but have to be sterilised after

Fuck off not literature

>>13351343
Not enforcing abortion laws is an inaction. If you don't care about any of the parties involved, inaction is the logical course.

>>13350190

breh my mom is a pretty "traditional" person and she's had three abortions, all for medical-related reasons (baby #1 would have been retarded, baby #2 had already died in the womb, baby #3 had a bone disease and was unlikely to make it past birth). It's not uncommon, it's also not a thing normal people talk about because it's rude, it's personal, and it's usually a decision nobody wants to make.

my sister was in the same position, her twins were going to both be retarded and partially deformed too so she had them both aborted in the third trimester. It destroyed her marriage, but it also allowed her to have healthy children with a white father later on.

Life is pain and cruel. The sooner you understand this the happier you will be.

>>13351143

>>I want to divorce my husband whenever I want to!

Why is this bad? Divorce primarly benefits the husband, since it allows him to dump women once they discover most are psychos. Just look at how the one country that doesn't have divorce, the Philippines, has a huge amount of ruined men who cannot do anything because half their income is taken by the courts for their wives for ever because they do not recognize divorces. As a result of this the woman can just leech off the man until he dies ("death do us part").

This is very common and I'm surprised you're defending it. It's especially dangerous because the Phillipines has an extradition treaty with the US, so foreign sex tourists get their shit kicked in too if they are dumb enough to get married thinking it's like Vegas where they can call it off at any time.

>>I want the government to take care of me if I become a single mom!

Most women dump their spawn off onto the state at the hospital, it's clear you have never been around really trashy people

>>13351311
>why don't you care this much when people get gunned down or blown up
Because I can't do anything about it.

>>13351959
you can't do anything about this either, incel.

>>13351972
>incel

>>13351383
This, why would we want women who seek abortions to be mothers anyway? We should also highly encourage them to get themselves sterilized before getting an abortion if they plan on ever doing it, like with fines/jail time for needing an abortion.

Anti-abortion people are profoundly sick in the head. "Pro-life", more like "pro-suffering of unwanted children". And after that they get angry about crime levels and suicide statistics lmao.