/lit/ - Literature

>>13268407
how do you mean?

>Why the modern world can't produce masterpieces of literature and culture like in the old days?
kys redditor

It's doing it right now, but they will only be recognized as such years and years from now.

>>13268407
Late stage capitalism’ Only concern is profit.
Why do “trads” defend the profit motive so fiercely?
Existentialism existed before during and now after the age of gods and divine rights. Nixing state and capitalism and challenging all hierarchies would produce an ideal world of daring and intellect.

>>13268416
Masterminds were already recognized when they were alive. Vivaldi, Da Vinci, Wagner, Shakespeare were all very famous among their contemporaries.

>>13268415
>Redditor using /pol/ memes and calling other people redditors
lol

>>13268447
How many da Vinci’s or Beatles do we need?

Read Spengler if you want to know why. Cultures are organic entities with set stages of birth, youth, maturity, decay, and death. Western culture has exhausted all its creative possibilities and entered the period of civilization, when science and reason succeed instinct and intuition, and when the world cities come to dominate. Sic transit gloria mundi.

>>13268407
Bc in the actual world superficiality prevails

>>13268453
>>Redditor using /pol/ memes and calling other people redditors
>lol

>>13268480

>>13268439
this

>>13268407
Nobody wants to study and contemplate the transcendent potential for beauty within the humble shitpost.

>>13268407
Only in a world of relatively few distractions could someone be both bored and autistic enough to write something like Finnegan's Wake. And that was published barely 80 years ago, before even television took off, let alone the Internet.

>>13268472
Thats quite a good explanation actually. But Spengler is a fan of Nietzsche, and Nietzsche wrote like shit.

He is more understandable?

>>13268540
>Nietzsche wrote like shit
pleb kys

>>13268540
I hear he turns it into a mathematical equation.
If you can’t take Nietzsche, forget it

Good art requires a connection to divinity. Modern humanity has lost its connection to the divine among the majority of its population. The art is bland and the only stuff we make approximating goodness is generally aware of its own lack of the divine element, which makes it interesting contextually, but not when compared to the whole of art, hence rapid fads.

>>13268540
Spengler's prose in the original German is quite good and enjoyable to read. Spengler isn't convoluted like most 19th century or later philosophers, he hated arrogant intellectualism and had great respect for practical men like engineers and scientists, and for their constructions and discoveries. Still, Spengler's philosophy gets to the fundamental questions of history and existence, while maintaining clarity and intuitive answers.

>>13268407
Napoleon is modern

>>13268407
Corporate Culture in every media
Social Justice
Lack of New Talent

>the modern world can't produce culture
Then what do you call this?

https://youtu.be/YlpUgTJa4tQ

>>13268447
Back then there was also people that wouldn't get recognition until years later, like Baudaliere.

When I was a kid I used to draw all kind of stuff
Then when I became interested in sexuality I lost my divine spark and only drew tits and asses.

It's kind of like that. We lost our innocent spark.

>>13268472
The West can never again produce a Goethe, but it can produce new Caesars.

>>13269042
Why?

>>13269044
It's a quote from one of Spengler's essays. He means that the time of high culture is past and the only cultural development left for the West in the future is the transition from democracy back to primitive monarchism.

>>13269052
Even when Spengler was alive or after his death the west produced great artists, like Kafka, Faulkner or Borges.

>>13269027
you´re so dumb

>>13268459
>utilitarian art
Remind me how that worked out

>>13269067
Yes he was blind to contemporary art. In general I think Spengler was a man born too early, like he accused Nietzsche of being born too late. For example his nationalism and hatred of democracy led him to believe Caesarism was coming in his time, when it's about 200 years off in his own charts. But that quote is definitely applicable today.

>>13269067
>Borges
Is Argentina "the West"?

>>13269027
>"I became a pervert, QED we're all perverts"

>>13269079
fuck off redditor
it's a good analogy

>>13269096
>believe Caesarism was coming in his time

Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Salazar are not a clear example of caesarism?

>>13269096
>definitely applicable today
And what if we also are blind to contemporaty art?

>>13269111
>poor of me i only focus on sex that´s why i´m not creative anymore


grow up kid

>>13269130
>Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Salazar
>Caesars

>>13269106
I don't see how it could be anything but the West.

>>13269137
>grow up kid
never in the history of the internet has this phrase accompanied a good post

>>13269137
>low test beta basedboy detected
Almost all men of significance in history and science had libidos high as fuck, they just channeled their sexual energy into creativity or something.

Can anyone give me insight into where Spengler thought of Hitler fit into his worldview? I know he didn't consider him Caesar but he's sort of an outlier.

>>13269130
That's a question I've been struggling with for a while. If Spengler was correct and fascism was Caesarism, then how come Caesarism disappeared after WW2? And why did it appear so early? Caesarism is supposed to be the final conflict between Money and Blood, where Blood always wins in the form of Caesarism. But Money definitively won WW2, and here we are 70 years later still under the dictatorship of Money which has gotten so much worse since that time. According to Spengler's timeline Caesarism should occur around the end of the 21st century as the state form disintegrates because of massive wealth inequality. This is happening in front of our very eyes in my opinion. So where does that leave fascism? I think this is something else Spengler was blind to because of his nationalism: fascism was just another attempt at world-improvement, like Marxism. People followed the ideology, and only superficially followed the man. My theory fits well within Spengler's timeline, world-improvement being a characteristic of the centuries preceding Caesarism.
>>13269136
There are individual masters here and there. But for the most part Western art is finished nowadays. In all popular art today I see only repetition and provocation, signatures of a culture's art that's being finished off.

>>13269187
food for thought for you anon: there were two important alien cultures present in the events of ww2, Russia, and entirely different civilization, which may well have destroyed the natural development of the west(like the west did to the aztecs for example), and the Jewish population in the US, England, etc.

ignore all this "le captialism" and "le things are actually the same shit

here you go Op https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613000470

>>13269166
>Almost all men of significance in history and science had libidos high as fuck, they just channeled their sexual energy into creativity or something.

i don´t disagree with that, i have a high libido too but don´t consider myself uncreative because of it

>>13269187
I was going say that maybe the caesarism process was interrupted because of the WW2. But your thesis is more accurate, since caesarism is supposed to defeat money. Also, in the Wikipedia page says that Spengler though that Hitler would fuck up the whole process.

You seem well informed about it. Any suggestions to start reading Spengler? I personally dislike everything to do with Nietzsche and existentialism because of their atheism.

>>13268407

>>13269177
Spengler wrote extensively on building a Third Reich after WW1. He initially thought Hitler might have been able to bring one about but quickly came to view him as a moron. He didn't like Hitler's materialistic racism or romanticism and was critical of the Nazi party in his last book which the Nazis banned.

>>13269215
>IQ
nothing to do with creating art

>>13269187
I think you're definitely right, and so was Spengler. Fascism wasn't the coming of the new Caeserism; I think we're seeing that at this very moment. Fascism's just sort of a weird ideological dead end, albeit one that's had kind of an interesting afterlife.

Porn addiction

>>13269235
retard

>>13269231
I want to avoid the /pol/shit, but how honest was his critic? He was part jewish.

>>13269246
Slaves out of the US created multiple different music genres and none of them were that educated

>>13269231
Did he ever make an analogy between Hitler and Antiquity or any other civilizations? If Hitler wasn't Caesar who was he?

>>13268407
because the jew asserts that reality is subjective, has enough power to maintain the illusion for a little while, and everyone who falls for it (everyone) goes insane and is incapable of perceiving objective reality and therefore cannot create anything at all let alone survive another generation or two.

Kill the jews. Kill anyone who disagrees. Any other attitude is suicide.

>>13269263
I think it's worth pointing out, though, that all the genres of music that American blacks invented--blues, jazz, rock and roll, rap--were never part of "mainstream" culture until whites adopted them. White culture essentially parasited off of black counterculture. That's essentially what mainstream Western culture STILL does today, it takes countercultures and underground cultures and applies capitalism to them to make them mainstream.

When was the last time mainstream culture ITSELF was great? It feels like it's been at least a century now.

>>13269263
>Slaves out of the US created multiple different music genres
I thought we meant art, not entertainment.

>>13269281
'mainstream' culture has never been great, the masses are disgusting

>>13269277
based and red pilled

>>13269229
You need to know a decent overview of Western and Classical history for The Decline to make any sense. There's 3 chapters I think in the second volume on Arabian history which mostly went over my head because I don't know much about it. Also expect metaphysics and mysticism, Spengler has a peculiar way of writing where he rarely just comes out and says something, he alludes to it with analogies. I actually like the style but the seemingly deliberate obfuscation turns a lot of people off. For the most part Spengler tries to be impartial but here and there in The Decline his opinions creep up, mostly on politics. He was irreligious but completely neutral on religion, recognizing it as central to an early culture's development before rationalism sets in.
>>13269247
Spengler believed the will-to-character of the Faustian spirit was what created the Western concept of race in the first place. Racial superiority has no actual basis outside of the Western world-feeling and to base a regime around it is a falsehood.

>>13269263
>>13269281
>all the genres of music that American blacks invented
The most influential one, Rock and Roll, isn't really a black invention. It has ninety percent of its roots in folk music of the South. The others are transient shit.
> White culture essentially parasited off
I wonder why Africans who had never been exposed to white culture never invented these things. Hmm.

>>13269290
The mainstream culture of Renaissance and Enlightenment Europe was great.

>>13269268
Spengler wanted a man like Bismarck to lead the West into Caesarism, instead he got Hitler who he thought would mess it up. He prophetically remarked in 1936 that Hitler's thousand year reich would come to an end in less than a decade. As far as I know he never made a comparison between Hitler and antiquity, because there is no comparison to be made. Fascism and totalitarianism in general can only come from a Faustian mind because only the Faustian will-to-conquer demands absolute control over the state.

>>13268439
>Existentialism existed before during and now after the age of gods and divine rights
No!

hello fellow humans, I can't wait to see what's in the trough tonight

just came here to repeat some jargon and buzz words for my self esteem

>>13269292
Thanks anon.

>>13268407
Because the world has changed. It produces other kinds of masterpieces now.

>>13269419
fucking kike

>>13269424
You aren't human just because you can see the ugliness in the world today. You have to be capable of seeing the beauty in it as well.

>>13268459

The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all times are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Jazz critics grow up listening to a lot of jazz music of the past, classical critics grow up listening to a lot of classical music of the past. Rock critics are often totally ignorant of the rock music of the past, they barely know the best sellers. No wonder they will think that the Beatles did anything worthy of being saved.

>>13268439
>getting rid of hierarchies produces intellect
>literally placing your idea objectively above another
>not using metaphysical hierarchical structures

>>13269292
race is real, you'd admit so to The Truth Demon, stop being a coward

>>13268439
Getting rid of you would increase intellect substantially

>>13269444
can you name one of the "masterpieces" so I can have a hearty laugh at you please

>>13268407
>Why the modern world can't produce masterpieces of literature and culture like in the old days?
Classics, like diamonds, begin their life by being obscured by tons upon tons of dirt. With enough time, those diamonds are usually appreciated for what they are.

>>13269445
I know this is a copy pasta, but to an extent it is true. We're yet to hear how amazing rock can be.

>>13269482
So no one is doing good work today?

>>13269486
This is not even a little bit true, read a book you fucking moron. 9 times out of 10 what we consider classics today were also considered great works of art in their day. The whole "neglected while alive famous after death" artist meme is exceptional

>>13269472
Racism in the modern sense, maybe. I mean there must be some reason that Africa and Australia are the only places on Earth to not produce a high culture. But maybe it isn't their time in the spotlight, like it wasn't the Germanic's time until relatively recently. But Hitler's racism is ridiculous. Idealizing racial purity among Europeans is pure 19th century thought. Even today Hitler's racism has completely disappeared in favor of the generic "white" moniker which has no defined boundaries and nobody can even decide what country is white and what isn't.

>>13269263
>none of them were that educated
Education =/= high IQ

>>13269096
He sounds like an idiot.

>>13268407

>>13269507
this

>>13268407
Preoccupation with happiness it is the will killer, We as a society have abandoned the idea that melancholia is a thing to be cherished. It is the soul of creation, imagination, even the appreciation of life.

>>13268480
>redditor using /pol/ meme, calling other people redditors and then calling a redditor who called him out as a redditor a redditor
holy reddit, I just upvoted this entire thread! Well played sir, the whale beacons at midnight!!!!

>>13269342
Heracleitus? Yeah, it sure did.

>>13269445
Copy/pasta or not, we really ought to destroy capitalism asap

>>13268439
>Nixing state and capitalism and challenging all hierarchies would produce an ideal world of daring and intellect.
Which would just produce new hierarchies, considering that's how the current hierarchies formed.

>>13269850
Well I always mean to qualify it by saying “all unjustifiable hierarchies”. Pardon for the confusion. Are you still confused?
The titanic effort it’s going to take to bring statists and law-lovers to heel, sticks and carrots all, including the challenges of fixing this climate catastrophe, would all forge an impressive society.

>>13268439
I love u

>>13269507
Exactly. Shakespeare was one of the most famous men in the British Isles by the time of his death. Samuel Johnson was a celebrity. Borges was an international sensation, as was Goethe. Joyce was celebrated by the end of his life, as was Tolkien.

The trick is that it DOES take time for great works of art to be appreciated, but that amount of time is usually not as long as is commonly believed. It's generally a few decades. So, if the artist takes care of himself and doesn't meet with an unfortunate, early demise (like Kafka did), he will usually live to see his work appreciated by the masses. If it's any good, that is.

>>13269915
What is an unjustifiable hierarchy? It seems undefinable, or easily redefined for misuse at any rate. Maybe I am a brute, but I would say "all undesirable hierarchies" and leave it at that. Statism not only secures, but even promotes and eventually show preference for, people who I consider sick and useless, so I want to see it abolished.

>>13268439
But if Marx is right then this type of art is lost forever unless we somehow return to feudalism and I sure don't want that.

>>13269977
Compared to modern working conditions for the average person, would feudalism really be so bad? Especially if it was accompanied by the yearly cycle of festivals and feast days that it had in Catholic Europe.

>>13269984
I like being a free man, a free man with rights that some big ass intermediary called the government guarantees and all I have to do is chip in some bucks to make said big ass intermediary work. I also like having vacations, healthcare, public education etc.
I wish it was like those animes you like but those days were dark my friend.

>>13269987
Well we wouldn't go ALL the way back, of course. We wouldn't give up our modern technology, like vaccines, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, etc.. We'd just be marrying modern science to ancient and medieval modes of sociopolitical organization. Imagine a landed aristocracy that used social media to communicate to its subjects, or online polls that were used to petition the local lord for grievances. The old and the new, fused together to make something both similar and different to both.

>>13268407

It's become too centralized and streamlined. "The West" is effectively American in various manifestations. You still see remnants of localism in Europe. Regional dialects for example. Look at the map of the HRE. In Italy there used to be small towns with sub <50k people with their own dialect/language, customs, etc.

Even our food is a fragile monoculture.The same corn, grain, etc for everyone. Meanwhile in Mexico they used to have hundreds of varieties of corn. Every farm grew their own variety of tomato - a deep diversity we cannot even imagine today. A return to "fractal localism" as taleb calls it, would bring back a diversity of culture that we haven't experienced for hundreds of years.

>>13268472
i dont believe any of this. we are living in an age of unprecedented technological progress, social upheaval is enormous, as you say, world cities are being birthed. all of this is fodder for a grand epic, but instead of drawing inspiration from this everyone is watching dumbfoundedly. surely there is someone intelligent enough to channel this incredible zeitgeist. and if western culture is in decline, then shouldnt it follow that some cultures are in bloom? where are the chinese shakespeares? the middle eastern dante's? oh wait there are none and none of what i said is being realized because the entire world is being subsumed by american hollywoodian schlock including the 'blooming' cultures such as the chinks. was plutarch not governed by reason? Lucan? Why do you suggest that reason is the enemy of artistic genius? are not reason and artistic intuition linked? spenglerism is a cheap cop out IMO
i.e.
why is western culture dying? dude, it just is, because all civilizations must die. i dont buy that.

>>13268439
>nix capitalism, return to jesus
based butterfly tranny, I agree 100%

>>13269027
>We need to make kids horny on ideas and art
interesting take, pedo

i tell you guys in every thread, none of any of this shit you complain about is going to change until one of you guys mans up and becomes dictator. time to man up like old Nappy and forcibly abolish the world through threat of violence. and do it ASAP, im waiting on a masterpiece here

>>13270023
>A return to "fractal localism" as taleb calls it

a patchwork you say?

>>13270064
If someone is going to become a dictator they're probably a member of the military and dont post here

>>13270084
yes exactly

>>13268416
I'm so tired of empty, beaten arguments like this one. It's exactly like rebuttals to criticism of modern music claiming "it's out there bro, you're just not looking well enough!" At least make a minimum effort to come up with your own points.

>>13268459
>comparing the Beatles to Da Vinci
I'm at a loss for words.

>>13269977
The past is consistently forever lost to us. The culture that arises out of a socialist revolution (See it like a clock. The aim being to go from midnight to noon. All so-called revolutions have gone from midnight to 3:00am, some making it to the dawn but getting smacked down
), would naturally be something entirely new, and nothing I can predict.

>>13270023
Nice

>>13270064
Naw man. We organize and rise together. The only way to do it.

>>13270123
I could have brought up Einstein.
I think Björk is a genius

>>13269937
People alive now get their work recognized by the masses. You just don't think the people currently being celebrated are great because you're a contrarian shitbag.

>>13269504
answer the question.

>>13268439
Must be first time I agree with this bitch

>>13268920
Unironically looks like a great time, and culture in it's purest organic form

>>13269937
As an interesting fact, even Mick Jagger admired Borges.

>>13268920
this is why you dont take away white people's maypole's festivals

>>13270341
Borges is the ultimate dream for any great writer. He was so interesting and so unique that his writing languished in obscurity for decades, and he was almost unknown outside of Argentina. He wrote and published most of his works in the 1930s, and then he spent more than 30 years being virtually nobody outside of his own, increasingly unimportant country.

Then he rocketed to international fame when he won the Prix International in 1961, sharing it with Samuel Beckett. All of a sudden, he was a celebrity. And THEN he lived 25 more years, finally dying in 1986 at the age of 86. So he got to experience both sides of the literary coin: he got to be the genius toiling in obscurity, and he got to enjoy a quarter-century of rock star status. It's handy to be long-lived.

>>13269106
much much much more than mutt-world. It's probably more western than france or germany at this point

>>13270290
I have no interest in answering your question because I can tell that you don't consider the products of corporations to be valid out of some backwards philosophy you possess, given the thread.

>>13270395
i'm not the guy you were talking to. i just found it ridiculous how you decided to completely dodge a very simple question which was foundational to your initial claim while still acting like you were saying something substantial

>the masterpieces are products of corporations
which ones?

>>13270450
I "dodged" the question because that guy quite literally said he wanted to just laugh at whatever examples I provided. What's the point then? Whatever I provide as examples won't prove anything to him, clearly.

>which ones?
There are many to list. Let's start with corporations that make smartphones, such as Apple and Samsung. Smartphones are works of engineering, are they not? And we can compare and judge works within a given category, can we not? Each smartphone is different, so we can compare them all, and eventually judge some better than others. There are corporations that invest hundreds of thousands of hours of manpower in order to perfect the design and utility of these devices. Is the final output, such as an Apple phone or Samsung phone, not an example of a masterpiece of modern engineering, when compared to the many weak knockoffs and failed experiments we never even get to see that are abandoned behind closed doors? You can make this kind of examination in a number of thriving industries today. The fact that there are thriving industries at all suggests that there are still good things being created today.

>>13270490
You're redefining masterpiece to something completely dissimilar to the standard meaning, which was even specified in the OP. You can find wonder in improving smartphones but it has no relation to the topic being discussed. Don't conflate different concepts because you want to share your value judgements about them.

>>13270511
>You can find wonder in improving smartphones but it has no relation to the topic being discussed.
That is wrong, considering my first post here >>13269419

I specified right at the start that not all kinds of masterpieces are being made anymore, and there are different kinds being made now. So literary talent has gone downhill overall, but other talents have developed. And if talents are being developed at all, there must be a culture to produce them.

>>13270528
Your post says nothing about what the other masterpieces are and then you didn't specify when asked. It makes complete sense to assume you meant new categories of masterpieces of culture and literature (which is what was being discussed and what people use the word 'masterpiece' to refer to) which are dissimilar from old types. If you want to change the topic from that to smartphones the onus is on you to state that.

Additionally the historical world has produced masterpieces of math, science, and engineering much more novel and revolutionary than the latest optimization of smartphone.

>>13268571
Does it matter if the divinity is the right one or not? I thought Homer was good in spite of being connected to Zeus and Hera rather than Christ.

>>13269549
Who do you think will score higher on an IQ test? Someone who never went through any education or someone who did

>>13269294
Exactly. And what were the roots of these “black” inventions? The only the slaves heard were the Christian songs and white folk music which were taught to them

>>13268439
>Late stage capitalism’ Only concern is profit.
This isn't true because artists don't care about profit but only about making art yet the art today is still shit.

>>13268472
yeah but Virgil wrote the Eneid during the Empire, which was something like our present situation actualized back in Rome

>>13269109
That's not what QED means, brainlet

>>13269268
>If Hitler wasn't Caesar who was he?
From Carl Jung;
He was a Mohammed like figure.
>Heil Hitler -- Allahu ackbar

>>13269263
>Slaves out of the US created multiple different music genres and none of them were that educated
From European influence.
And Blacks did have families, employment and education back then too.

i think the art we have in the 21st century does just fine; the internet is full of archives of retarded things we did in this century and the images of great things that happened

>>13269524
>Even today Hitler's racism has completely disappeared in favor of the generic "white" moniker which has no defined boundaries and nobody can even decide what country is white and what isn't.
Because the white moniker was applied to the anglo saxon Americans when fighting the Indians. It's as retarded as calling every african a black man.

Outside of that Cultural sphere you are just an European.
But of course the media has made sure it remained alive.

>>13268459
>or Beatles do we need?
>praising the Beatles
>muh counter-culture
hahahahahaha

pls someone play fortnite with me pls my parents r arguing

>>13268407
No one creates anything new. Well, it's not so much about creation or lack of creation, it's more like the approach. Today everything is too steeped in prefabs, no one knows how to be original, how to just make or do something without it being like arranging prefabs and mandatory signals (to satisfy the consumer's conditioned need for them), there's so much preestablished stuff that it takes all one's attention and skill to repackage it. It's like operating on mythology vs. scientific investigation. Or respewing entrenched assumptions vs. starting from the bottom and thinking philosophically. One is repacking, one is a unique unfolding from some basics. And the repacking is aggressively supported by the status quo and the audience.

>>13268407
>le modern world
the most tired trope on the internet

>>13268472
>Read Spengler
back to pol, retard

>>13268407
the internet

A 'masterpiece' is considered a masterpiece if it reflects the tastes and value-judgments of the ruling class. These tastes and value-judgments are consequences of the material conditions in which this ruling class lives. There are masterpieces being produced today, but either
A) you aren't rich enough to experience them
or
B) your tastes and value-judgments aren't aligned enough with those of the ruling class for you to perceive them as masterpieces

>>13270192
>björk and beatles being compared to davinci
Ask me how I know you have never seriously played an instrument. I played violin, piano and guitar from the age of 5, so the absurdity of your claims is very transparent. My problem isn't with your lack of perspective, but with the certainty you speak of something you obviously don't understand. What's next, le Corbusier was a genius? BB King will be compared to Shostakovich and JK Rowling to Dostoyevsky?

>>13268407
world war 1

>>13270192
>björk is literally me

>>13271607
There is something very important you're not mentioning: the economic elites don't really give a damn about proper cultural upbringing anymore, which is why you see kids from rich families dancing to mumble rap, for instance. The difference between an elite derived from a bourgeois perspective and that of nobles who were taught from the cradle about high culture is extremely clear. Today, most people will tell you that if something sells then it's good. Any notion of standards has been lost, all value judgements are subject to whatever monetary (and therefore social standing) results a work produces.

>>13269915
Good god your posts turn my stomach, namefag. Stop being a name faggot, you're not special.

>>13269281
Read Deneen. Liberalism is an anti-culture.

>>13268472
St augustine said all civilizations colllapse in a seventh year

Might lasy 607, 1007 years or more but they end in 7

Silly I know but christianity is the currently accepted religion

Because nostalgia yo

i like sucking dick. I might be a shemale, but I like it. I am also deeply mentally retarded, which I became after letting a pencildick guy fuck me in the brain through the ear canal. I cannot spell the word tubreculoses

>>13268439
This

>>13269915
>all unjustifiable hierarchies
no such thing

>>13268459
>praising popular music shite like beatles instead of ligeti and lutoslawski
anon I...

because someone strangled the culture, no idea who

>>13270593
>much more novel and revolutionary than the latest optimization of smartphone.
If you want the bigger revolutions for comparison then look at things like supercomputer technology, microchip technology, robotics/drone development, AI, 3D/printing, gene mapping, particle acceleration, etc. Advancements are still made, very often, some very large, most small, but even small ones are important, and there were periods in history where there were only small ones besides the current one.

Also, all of these qualify as masterpieces of culture. I didn't specify that before, so sorry for that confusion.

hello fellow humans, I can't wait to see what's in the trough tonight

just came here to repeat some jargon and buzz words for my self esteem

>>13271666
>>13272247
Clearly you don't understand my intentions. You had a Da Vinci already. Why do you think there should be a second Da Vinci? The past is gone, by definition. Deal with it.

>>13271681
Oh stop. She's prettier

>>13272243
>My boss is better than me. My older sister who beats me up is better than me. Trump is the smartest man in the world.
You're a twit, so the above is no doubt true for you

>>13271709
>name, namefag, name. Name name namename, fagname? name name name.
You're psychotic

>>13268407
We've all become trapped inside our own assholes

>>13272341
oh it's butterfly, I'd better stop posting. This place is about to get a whole lot shittier for the next few hours.

Because the most influential portion of the population are neo-yuppie tech dweebs with no sense of taste or culture. These people are happy to live the perpetual adolescence encouraged by the by every corporation in existence.

>>13270033
This is a massive cope. John Glubb wrote something similar in fate of empires. There are four stages: conquest, economic expansion, abundance and decay. The first two stages are filled with art and what have you in an aristocratic sense, the later two stages are degenerate noncultured money grabbing. Guess in which stage we are

>>13268407
Read Culture of Critique.

>>13268439
LOL good one! :-D

>>13269187
>But Money definitively won WW2
Not really. Capital won the cold war though

>>13268407
Wrong

>>13270084
>YAAAAASSSSS LOCALIST-GLOBALIST HYPERCORPORATISM!!!

>>13272644
https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2008/11/patchwork-positive-vision-part-1/

>>13268407
We're only 19 years into 21st century and 2666 was released in 2004. What masterpieces were published between 1900-1919, Ulysses?

>>13272653
I’m told he’s a rightwinger. What’s this book about?

>>13272698
a reboot, transition from a western neoliberal democracy towards a join stock republic/monarchic state

>>13268472
The West is just completely fucked in the head for unnatural reasons. You don't see all this "there are 10 genders so let's dilate and fuck some drag kids while we listen to mumble rap and smoke weed and replace ourselves with foreigners" shit going in Japan, whose cultural decline has been miniscule by comparison.

>>13272653
>>13272644

>>13272721
take it easy buddy

>>13272698
>>13272644

>>13272712
>monarch
Hahaha. Okay thanks.

>>13272725
>why, yes, i do in fact support a hypermicromacrocorporatist patchwork of relativist economics

>>13272738
lol i don't know why do you get so mad, chill out

>>13272754
>why would you btfo my retarded ideology
>it must be because U MAD
The absolute state of 21st century right-wing meme theorists.

>>13272773
it´s not my ideology, but i´m interested if a country play by moldbug´s rule just for curiosity sake, for me all type of governments are inherently flawed and utopia is wishfull thinking

>>13272785
So, given that utopia is wishful thinking we should simply regress to the worst ideas possible.
Great idea.

>>13272804
who said that? lol, i prefer living in a democracy btw

>>13272855
yikes
You need to go back.

>>13272929
>hey kid, shut the hell up

>>13272939
hyperreddit

>>13272698
unironically "what if the matrix was real but instead of machine overlords we had corporate overlord"

>>13272954
https://youtu.be/V3ESC2mxxgc?list=PLLebhvV93W4O8DsXSkzeCzUbO8062G8Y4&t=40

>>13269106
Latin America is part of the West.

>>13269937
Borges was not really that famous outside of Argentina until the 50s, when he started to became blind. He wasn't an overnight success. Only the literati and some readers knew him before the 50s.

>>13273008
>/rdt/ band
>thinks i'm going to watch an interview

>>13271693
They never did. look back and you’ll see that it wasn’t the moneyed nobility that set the fashion any high-art they patroned was in performative imitation of the King, Nor did they have the great minds of the time you’ll find that more in lowly monks. The trope of the destitute artist is an ancient one, because it’s always been true.

>>13268407
lack of true sexual abstinents, who dedicated their lives to art and religion

Because there is no true aristocracy. Marxists and traditionalists agree that's the reason.

>>13268407
Because we make TV shows now you fucking idiot

>>13271693
>proper cultural upbringing
Boo hop. Good riddance.

>>13271795
Our civilization collapsed in 2007

>>13273569
lol aristocracy is a meme, aristocrats are responsible for only a tiny portion of art, including whatever they contributed by patronage

it's 90% the inherent capability of a population

>>13273797
this.
a lot of people don't realize we live in a dystopian/cyberpunk reality because it has happened so slowly. If you pick up someone from the year 2000 and put them in 2010, they would probably be alright, but if you put someone from 2010 in 2020 they will freak out,

>>13273797
bingo

>>13273848
>>13273797

>>13268414
I'm fairly left wing but this gives me the creeps. When I think that corporations will use these kids to push cosmetics for males, and the fucking retards will gobble it up, I just throw up inside my mouth a little bit.

>>13275579
>>13273848

In a sense the 1950's were far more dystopian than the stuff you see in the movies or propaganda made within that era. The average person had far less ability for artistic output and freedom compared to today. It was an extremely conformist era which was stifling for all but upper middle-class white people.

>>13275734
Yeah I'm sure the "Hey I can vote and drink out of the same water fountain as white people" would quickly be overshadowed by "Jesus fucking christ everyone is obese, blacks still live in poverty and have ridiculous rates of crime and murder, blacks can go to college now but I can't even begin to afford it, the job market is pathetic and I'm twice as poor as I used to be"

>>13275886
at least minorities are treated as actual human beings nowadays in most parts of society, not saying that the modern world is all sunshine and rainbows, but it is more convenient

>>13268407
I blame Protestantism and Martin Luther specifically for rejecting the arcane practices and iconography popular with the Catholic Church, as well as modern Capitalism for promoting the lowest common denominator because it gets the most attention from a poorly educated, ADHD-riddled plebian consumer class and therefore, more money.

>>13275892
nah, we're all just treated like negroes nowadays.

>>13275924
better to suffer with everyone than have only an entire race get privilege, now we all are equal in corporate slavery

>>13275928
word.

>>13270085
They should be though. All the best ideas are coming out of /lit/ and /pol/ these days.

>>13270023
>Even our food is a fragile monoculture
>Every farm grew their own variety of tomato - a deep diversity we cannot even imagine today. A return to "fractal localism" as taleb calls it, would bring back a diversity of culture that we haven't experienced for hundreds of years

FUCK FOOD

THEY'RE COMMODITIZING PEOPLE -- P E O P L E -- F U C K I N G P E O P L E

THE FUCKING PSYCHOPATHIC GLOBOHOMO ELITE NEED TO BE TERMINATED WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE

WHY HAS THIS NOT STARTED HAPPENING YET?

>>13271693
True. Money is the arbiter of masterpiece now

>>13268439
You, along with everyone who resonated with this statement, are missing the real question--by extension, the real answer--at hand. Obviously, a culture is going to be influenced by its economy, and, obviously, this will influence the individuals in a culture, but the problem with leaving it here is: culture and economy are as much the products of the individuals participating in them as the individuals are of their culture and economy. Our society didn't just end up how it is for no reason, nor is it some autonomous entity that acts on its own accord--it changes as we changes and does as we do. So, the real question is: what is wrong with modern individuals? Why are modern individuals more content with cannibalizing than producing? When did we get this way and why did we get this way? You can't simply blame late capitalism without blaming its building blocks.
As to your solution, how do you explain the unending wealth of great art that came about BECAUSE of capitalism and states and hierarchies? How would Joyce or Melville exist without them? How would Spenser and Shakespeare and Rabelais? In fact, I would go as far as to say that daring and intellect DEPEND on claustrophic institutions to inspire them through their rejection.
The real answer to OP's question lies somewhere in the realm of what has changed about that.

>>13272644
lel

>>13275928
>better for 90% of the population to suffer than 10% to suffer
????????????????????

>>13272962
YES! This is it. And it's so horrible everyone is checking out, zoning out, shitposting out, vidya'g out, suiciding out, SJW literal shaking out, rage posting out, tranny cuck fapping out, obsessing about sub Saharan African starving children out, white genociding out, Satanic Talmudic paranoiaing out, Tindering out, opioiding out, compulsively consuming out, junk fooding out, compulsively, hedonistically, addictively, escaping into their own Matrix. A Matrix inside the Matrix. An Inception Matrix to protect themselves from the horrors of end stage Globohomo Corporate Capitalism.

mfw I just realized everyone is living inside their own matrix inside the matrix. This is why everyone seems so retarded. It's like everyones' head is inside a blacked out bubble boy bubble and they'er wondering around aimlessly bumping into things

>>13269187
apparently caesarism hasn't even happened yet
it's meant to happen between the year 2000 and 2200

>>13273008
How did his hair get like that?

>>13268439
My nigga

>>13268407
Because all the old shit has been through a filter of time and only the really good shit is the stuff people anymore.

The world died with the Cold War. That's why there's nothing new. That's why everything is so absurd. The world should have ended. We're living in the wrong timeline.

>>13273797
It collapsed with USSR

>>13275734
Think about who told you this and why. The 1950's weren't suddenly more conformist and stifling than a decade before or 5 decades before. It's not like the 1950's were some conformist aberration. The aberration is now. This is Weimar Germany or the end of the Roman empire or 1929. THIS is the aberration for no other reason than it is not sustainable. Current standards run counter to nature plus EVERYONE hates this, though for different reasons.

>>13276213
The parallels between all those and the world as it is now makes me sad and scared. I want to be wrong.

>>13276223
Embrace it but don't let it into your soul. Become strong and project your spirit out.

>>13269106
Yes but we're being overran by brown niggers

remember when a video game was almost made that portrayed a terrorist group kidnapping and executing corrupt wall street bankers as the bad guys?

>>13276256
No, can you tell me more about this.

>>13276245
Are there even examples of late-stage cultures rebounding and becoming better?

>>13276260
it's called rainbow six patriots, part of the long-running rainbow six franchise, although the early games were slow-paced tactical shooters this one took a huge turn and became more of an interactive movie with a daring premise
of course it was cancelled in 2014 and was replaced by a newer game called rainbow six siege which is just a typical multiplayer shoot em up, like cops and robbers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_Rainbow_6:_Patriots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLhALiOnvs8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCQysh2Ci0c

and to think all of this was made by ubisoft, one of the biggest vidya developers in the world

Lots of autism here but still a great thread, bump

>>13273573
Tradcons don't understand anything about modern forms of craftsmanship. It's why they are tradcons.

>>13276275
Very interesting

>>13269187
Caesarism hasn't happened yet. Fascism was an attempt at revitalization, not caesarism. Spengler didn't support Hitler because he thought he wasn't the right man to guide Germany through that process.
>>13269618
He was one of Wittgenstein's favourite thinkers actually.

I think you're overestimating how many masterpieces there are. There's good, then there's landmarks of culture that only come around centuries (unless it happens to be Ancient Greece or Europe in the 19th century). Then there's a lot more "really good" besides that. There's not much more than that.
The modern world also is extremely ugly so to represent it accurately is to make something ugly.

>>13269130
Not really. If anything in his time the United States were transitioning to Caesarism.

>>13276205
based.

>>13276320

>>13276266
No. And that is a hard fact to swallow. But as Spengler said, we shouldn't dwell on the past, as it is just another form of escapism, and makes you no better than other mass men who engorge themselves in video games, television, etc. By doing so, you renounce your role in history all the same.

We must make the most of the opportunities available to us in this particular age. There are still many avenues open for men of talent to distinguish themselves. But these are now in the fields of statesmanship, science, engineering, etc, as for the arts, those are all but closed.

>>13269187
Which is so odd to me since everyone with the potential of genius has deep access to every source of knowledge and high culture ever produced! There’s got to be someone right now taking in the best of it all and creating another Faust!

>>13276866
posters that use this many exclamation marks are cute

>>13270021
HAVE SEX!

>>13268453
>/pol/ memes
Really?

>>13269106
South, If you may.

>>13269106
>Is Argentina "the West"?
lmao
who the hell in their right mind thinks any south american country is western?
its westernised, sure, but how can you call any country full of non-europeans "western"?

>>13270839
Our present situation mirrored to Rome would be the late republic, probably the time of the Gracchi more than a century before Virgil

>>13277001
Yeah the assassination of jfk by the cia was probably analogous to the murder of the gracchi brothers

>>13269915
>wanting to produce justifiable hierarchies instead of unjustifiable ones
You'd simply get to square one. Previous hierarchies were once thought to be justifiable too, and why would your justification be better than that of old? Maybe back then it was superstition, while nowadays it's science? Regardless of how much of modern social science is actually science (not much in my opinion), the best you'd get from accurately applying science to the problem of hierarchies is something like Brave New World, and that seems even more shitty than what we have.

>>13268472
science and reason =/= instinct and intuition
Really hope it’s more nuanced than tbis binary style thinking, esp. given the sheer pluralism of motivations and preferences in the world, unless of course he’s trying to smuggle in Capital as the dominant symbolic order that defines “science,” “intuition,” etc., but I’ve never heard that take on Spengler. You sure you’re not just giving a shit explanation?

>>13268540
>Nietzsche wrote like shit
Found the reddit and/or /pol/ transplant

>>13268571
Oh shut the fuck up you absolute retard. You think Shakespeare’s degenrate ass gave a single fuck about your imaginary friend? Weak bait.

>>13277397
He means that culture period man lives life as destiny, the world-as-history as spengler calls it, he doesn't question his existence. The civilization man beginning with Schopenhaur becomes overly critical of life and sees it as something to be analyzed and dissected, what spengler calls the world-as-nature. That kind of man sterilizes the culture through rationalism. It's feeling vs reason.

>>13268576
This is just further evidence you are a pleb. Hw tf are engineers and scentists any more “practical” than philosophers? You have a really unhealthy view of the world, it was honked from the start, etc.

>>13269052
Ah, so he’s your typical late modern nostalgist ala Marx. Good to know he’s a waste of time then.

>>13269294
>Rock and Roll isn’t a black invention
HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA you are absolutely the dumbest person I’ve seen in this thread today. Like how could you even begin to maintain such an uncontestably established view?
but also giving any sort of cultural preferance t rock and roll as “dominant” at any point in its cultural existence is laughable and shows a high school tier understanding of history and cultural influence. read more and play less vidya

>>13277412
>Comparing spengler to marx
Good joke

>>13269492
How’s 17?

>>13269281
>White culture essentially parasited off of black counterculture.
No, whites were *infected* by black counterculture. Its also why the west is so absolutely shit at modern culture, its basically 100% garbage.

>>13277429
Dead serious. Why should I take any thinker serious whose grand solution in nostalgia? Whether you’re a proper Hegelian, a Nietzschean, or whatever there’s no viable historical theory that calls for a “return” to anything.

>>13277406
Yeah not convinced culture vs. reason is really a thing. Criticism has always been a thing in literature, for example.

>>13277455
Spengler isn't advocating a return to anything. Part of his philosophy is accepting the times you're born into. He's just saying that the early period of a culture is its most creative.
>>13277457
It's rationalism more than basic reason. The defining aspect of the culture period is religious piety, the civilization period is sterile urban rationalism. Read Nietzsches essay on "the problem of Socrates" for a quick introduction

>>13277455
>spengler
>nostalgist
Maybe you should start by reading them you retard

>>13268459
>need
The need for a 'need' in everything is the surest sign of a banished mind

>>13276123
>Why are modern individuals more content with cannibalizing than producing? When did we get this way and why did we get this way?
Capitalism, simply put.
>You can't simply blame late capitalism without blaming its building blocks.
Feudalism, monarchism and Christianity.
Art, springing from artists minds, need time, time to develop their craft, find their style and perfect it. Some are able to “make a living” and do this, many are kept back or just obscured by mountains of bad art.
But this is just art. Think of everyone else. Having the concept of debt lifted off their shoulders, given time and means to take care of the wants and needs, tending to the wants and needs of the natural world. There’s an art we need now. If only there was a profit motive, phffffsh

>How would the past have turned out if there were no hierarchies?
Boohoo. Different. Far better I’d say.

>>13277333
No. Disagree. A director on a movie set has reason to be the director. No needs direct an assembly line.

>>13277625
We have painters, we have helicopter designers and anatomy illustrators. Da Vinci’s time has come and gone. We need a world that will recognize the next geniuses and not make them worry about student debt, poisoned water, medical bills and general poverty

>>13276950
>but how can you call any country full of non-europeans "western"?

are you sure about that?

>>13277903
Based

Where does this anti-capitalist meme that there are unlimited resources and that society could function properly by equally providing everyone with the same luxuries (which is essentially the same as removing said luxuries from society) come from? It is the same nonsense that Socrates pushed. It's pure idealism, and not even desirable.

>>13277903
We just have to Damian Hirst this bitch

>>13278039
a sizeable amount of leftists have basically no limits to their ideology especially when it comes to equality, you either have absolute equality or none at all because accepting inequalities is not an option (no matter whether they are necessary or not); they don't want to improve society, they want a perfect society and of course they need to bend reality to achieve it, a perfect society would just werks because it's an equal society

>>13268439
why is this tripfag fagging in every thread?

>>13278303
You must be new here.

>>13269773
You're like a low-rent troll, that everyone here secretly enjoys.

>>13268439
thisthisthis.

truly great art -- that is to say, art which is not merely technically adept but reflects aspects of the human experience and makes a lasting impact -- is best achieved in times of upheaval by artists unburdened by patronage.

Late capitalism means that all art, even "subversive" art, is commodified and rendered inert. It is goddamn close to impossible to make art which shocks elite sensibilities, reveals truths meant to be kept secret, or feels in any way original anymore. Capitalism poisons spiritual innovation. Gotta get rid of it -- or at least materially challenge it -- before culture can move forward without being weighed down by money.

>>13278039
thanks to modern science (accomplished, of course, on the backs of unpaid or underpaid students and government funding) we can get real goddamn close to a 100% renewable economy. we can return to the land with our new wealth of knowledge behind us and keep the wheels turning more or less forever, at least long enough to start pulling rare minerals from space.

>>13270033
>we are living in an age of unprecedented technological progress

are we?

https://www.edge.org/conversation/john_horgan-why-i-think-science-is-ending

>>13278401
No we can't because no one would want to work the machinery and power plants when all of the luxuries are gone, and in order to remove all our luxuries. Again, this is pure idealism.

>>13278380
>Capitalism poisons spiritual innovation.
Dumb materialist talking about spiritual innovation

>>13272773
Xenotranny can suck a fat one. Fucking faggot

>>13272773
Who the fuck cares about any of these people?

>>13270818
>Yeah, im an artist, like all other artists, i do not eat, drink or actually do anything which costs money, i live under a bridge and do the art, haha, like all artists do.
Retard

the impetus to worship is more dilute now

>>13268439
<3

>>13268439
never thought i'd come to like butterfly so much, but i do. never leave darlin (not that you could if you wanted to)

>>13278380
>art which is not merely technically adept but reflects aspects of the human experience and makes a lasting impact -- is best achieved in times of upheaval by artists unburdened by patronage.

This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread

>>13276223
What are the parallels?

>>13277408
Modern philosophy is just mulling over again and again ideas and problems that have already been formulated and answered 100 times before. Modern engineering is the design and construction of great complex machines. Better to invent a new aeeoengine, Spengler says, than reformulate the Will to power again.


>>13277412
>>13277455
Jesus Christ kys. Spengler is the complete opposite of a nostalgist he's a fatalist to the core. Go at least read the wiki before you embarrass yourself again.

God the absolute state of /lit/
It's amazing the sheer number of you who are giving your opinions on someone whose books you've clearly never even read.
It's like every second post here is getting pleb filtered by Spengler

>>13268853
Exactly. I don't even know what OP thinks he's proving by just posting a mugshot of some dictator in a tacky outfit who did more than almost anyone to modernize Europe.

>>13268407
Not true. So called "masterpieces" were considered pleb trash and memes back in the good, old days. When something you created or did bit you in the ass, they would say "You got French Revolution'd!"

>>13278857
t. not an artist and never will be.

>>13279015
Not sensing a refutation here. Getting the sense you haven't read him either? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

>>13268407
>Why the modern world can't produce masterpieces of literature and culture like in the old days?
It does. It's just not as popular anymore. I like the New Weird genre and a lot of modern picture books such as Pettson and Findus. I personally define the picture books I like as "spenta genre".

>>13279406
>New Weird genre
which includes figures like Ligotti and Laird Barron*

>>13270880
what your gamertag?

>>13279574
veganmarxist1998

Capitalism

>>13278655
actually lol'd
thx anon

>>13279579
fr?

>>13269745
This. People are distracted. Entertainment is king. Video games, TV series, YouTube, the Internet. All you have to do is be a spectator. It's difficult to say no to these things and rather than consume, produce.

>What is practiced as art today--be it music after Wagner or painting after Manet, Cézanne, Leible and Menzel-- is impotence and falsehood. One thing is quite certain, that today every single art-school could be shut down without art being affected in the slightest. We can learn all we wish to know about the art-clamour which a megalopolis sets up in order to forget that its art is dead form the Alexandria of the year 200. There, as here in our world-cities, we find a pursuit of illusions of artistic progress, of personal peculiarity, of "the new style," of "unsuspected possibilities," theoretical babble, pretentious fashionable artists, weight-lifters with cardboard dumb-bells--the "Literary Man" in the Poet's place, the unabashed farce of Expressionism, which the art-trade has organized as a "phase of art-history," thinking and felling and forming as industrial art. Alexandria, too, had problem-dramatists and box-office artists whom it preferred to Sophocles and painters who invented new tendencies and successfully bluffed their public. The final result is that endless industrious repetition of a stock of fixed forms which we see today in Indian Chinese and Arabian-persian art. Pictures and fabrics, verses and vessels, furniture, dramas and musical compositions--all is pattern-work. We cease to be able to date anything within centuries, let alone decades, by the language of its ornamentation. So it has been in the Last Act of all Cultures.