/lit/ - Literature

Go to bed, Nick.

Western Philosophy (continental line), The Bible, Norbert Wiener, William Gibson, Freud.

Bataille, Deleuze, Guattari, Nietzsche, Gödel, Burroughs, Marx, Schopenhauer, Crowley, Kant, Lovecraft.

You also have to listen to a ton of UK Jungle and Godspeed! You Black Emperor

>>13154564
"For the man in China, the future is more true than the present."
Sartre
"Capital may not be perfect, but it is the best system we have, and further progress can only iron out the few minor problems remaining."
Pinker
"Everything is Awesome."
Lego Movie
"My Life is SSOOOOO DARK!"
Old Tumblr Goth blogs

>>13154564
No one. Simply do drugs until you become psychotic.

Nick's diary desu.

>>13154620
kek try to explain what you think Nick Land is trying to say (hint, it has nothing to do with those quotes you post)

>>13154859
Sure, Nick.
"NeoChina arrives from the future."
It's literally the same quote, just for techsters.

>>13154859
Great contribution

>>13154859

the entire canon of continental philosophy

>>13154859
JUST ONE!

This is a reminder that Land greatly values Schopenhauer.

>>13154983

Here's the PDF.

https://www.docdroid.net/MLBrosa/schopenhaur-arthur-on-university-philosophy.pdf

>>13154859
Name one (1) thing conservatives have conserved.
Name two (2) things liberals have liberated.
Name three (3) things accelerationists have accelerated.

>>13155000
Blessed digits. It's over for accelshits.

>>13155000
>>13155014
This kills the accelerationist.

Where did all this organized "accelerationists can't meme" posting come from
That was... Weirdly sudden and coordinated

>>13154929
If you think Sarte meant China was building time machines then you might be retarded

>>13155041
Japan is sending playstations

>>13155000
>>13155014
you know people can tell you're samefagging cause of your faggy naming scheme for memes

>>13155041
So you believe China is building time machines?
Lay off the opioid popcorn, Nick.

>>13155035
It's one autist, go on Warosu and look up some of the filenames

>>13155058
Nick Land thinks cities are time machines, and China is developing the most effective of these, yes.

>>13155035
It's been going on for more than a year.
Thanks for checking your speed, good citizen.

>>13155059
>NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY HATE REDDIT DISCORD SHILLING PSEUDS
COPE

>>13155082
>that way.jpg

>>13155020
NeoAchilles arrives with a radar gun.

>>13155088
>he thinks this means something
Who is the autist?

>>13155067
That's pretty fucking reddit and gay dude.

>>13155095
how many post are you in this thread? be honest now. 6? 8? literally obsessed

>>13155051
Not everyone phoneposts from the reddit discord faggot

>>13155067
Doesn't Manual DeLanda say something similar? That cities condense time?

>>13155108
I thought discord was like teamspeak for zoomers, how do you phonepost from it? why would not phoneposting from discord make you rename your memes with faggy little titles?

Read Nick Land

Live Nick Land

Believe Nick Land

Anything else will lead to misunderstanding

>>13155107
>responding to a comment chain is bad
Keep coping and sliding, pseud.

i've unironically never found a single accelerationist meme to be funny or clever. i can't help but imagine the kind of person that would make something like that giggling to himself as he posts it thinking it's brilliant. such a sad group of people

>>13155116
Just post the memes. All we as is one.

>>13155127
All their memes are literally just
>WEW NICK LAND SO COOL AND SPEEDY!!!
>ADD MORE POP CULTURAL REFERENCES TO FAST STUFF AND INJECT MORE CULT OF PERSONALITY!!!

>>13155124
You were responding to your own posts you massive samefagging faggot. People recognize you, you know. You stand out like a sore thumb and I've never once seen you critique accelerationism in any meaningful way.
>too slow!
>can't meme!
>here's a philosopher who uses a couple of the same words! accelerationshits 60 years behind!

>>13155127
accelerationist memes aren't funny but deleuzian memes are pretty good

>>13155141
it's so cringe. even the more "sophisticated" memes are embarrassing

>>13155141
>>13155127
Accelmemers eternally BTFO
>I think this may actually be the key to understanding it. Even though accelerationists are right-wing they have a similar origin to the left and rely on overly systematic language. Rather than simply describing reality they are overly concerned with the effects, and these effects must always be qualified with the original marxist doctrine. With memes, leftists and accelerationists have an obvious intent: constrain the image so as to maintain ideological integrity (rather than allowing the image to guide the ideas). This is why the images are often buried beneath a mountain of text.
>In other words, their image of reality is overdetermined and often made subordinate to their ideological doctrine and prescriptions. It lacks subtlety, and the natural hierarchy involved when one must prove his understanding of the joke, or grasp the character of another person without it being explicitly stated.
>Or, more simply, it is talking politics in the workplace or on a first date. There is a collision of two opposing realities which distorts the very purpose of the relation.
Good communication, like good art, requires subordination to the truth, to objectivity. There is a reason why most great works of art are ambiguous, and this is due to writing oneself out of the image, having humility before the truth, and allowing the creation to take on its own life.
>Leftists have dominated art because the political situation is predominantly leftist, we are now on the other side of modernism where very few monarchists are left with seats in the government. And, of course, art has been heavily politicised since the 60s. Memes don't have the same constraints, and play more of a communicative role than an artistic one.
>Perhaps this also reveals an opportunity for the right to apply similar principles to art.

>>13155144
>he unironically thinks he can shit up the board without people making fun of his meme ideology
There are countless people on the board who hate accelshits because they're insufferable spammers. They all seem like samefags because you have ideological autism.

>>13155167
This is critiquing right wing accelerationism which isn't fair because no one who identifies as x wing can meme. How come there's more shitty memes about accelerationist memes than there are shitty accelerationist memes? is this acceleration?

>>13155187
There are like two threads a week about this and I've never seen them autistically spam shit to the degree you currently are
You keep making the same two uncomfortably unfunny jokes over and over again
I don't know if you're some kind of autist that found his niche or something more sinister

>>13155187
>insufferable spammers
>s-so I spam i-insufferably
projection of the highest order

accelerationism is crypto-transhumanism, accel and capital are two sides of the same coin, both hate the flesh and want to reject, aestheticize, and consume the emptiness of modern life, stop feeding this cyberpunk cult and develop a true praxis

>>13154564
Why don't you read and find out?

>>13155201
Fake and gay. There are often 3-5 threads up at a time.
You're not fooling anyone.

>>13155200
Proof? Lots of right-wingers can meme. Can left-accelerationists meme? They have the potential to be worse than accelerationsts or slightly better. I'll take a guess that they have the rare good meme which arises accidentally.

None of this shit matters, there are maybe 150 serious "accelerationists" in the world, and none of them can communicate with normies.

>>13155339
>left-accelerationists meme
no one who identifies as x wing can meme

>>13155331
>Fake and gay
You post like you learned 4chan lingo from an outdated slideshow

>>13155141
They are made unironically by left wing an-prims. left can't meme strikes again.

>>13155352
You're an idiot.

some of the accelerationist pastas are pretty /lit/ actually

>>13155144
>no meaningful discussion
Okay, enough bullshit. Let's see your cards.

If Capital is really the dominant form of modernity how do accelerationists reconcile the problem that the trinity of political systems is capable of moulding Capital to their will? Each political system can control valorisation, like a sluiceway guiding the products of capital and the mechanisms of devalorisation. Yet, in terms of law and technology, all state difference is wiped away - the political systems defer to the formal type. This was revealed most clearly in the Nuremberg trials and the subordination of entire empires to technical completion, a total framework of humanist law set itself against nationalism and the capitalist economy. (And what this means is that the end of nations is not fundamentally connected to the processes of capital, but something far more significant and powerful.)
In simple terms, this reveals a decisive hierarchy, descending through law, technology, politics, and capital - we see this metastasizing as the economy is subsumed by the state apparatus, and stalled as all material is liquidated for war efforts. The lesser forms valorise their essence, but only, in the end, as processes of the greater forms.
Capital is nothing more than the necessity of economic theory to conform to technical law and materialist apostasy. Land, just like all economic determinists, reads this backwards, assuming that society is nothing more than the market's solipsism (he's even bad at this because he is far less rigorous and consistent than a theorist from 200 years ago). One must believe it to be determinant when it is not, and within this theory each proponent accumulates ever more exceptions and rules, just like the system he insists is a replacement for God. An ideology of projection, funny that...

>>13155544
Samefag.

>>13155352
what the fuck does star wars have to do with anything you fucking retard

>>13155564
>If Capital is really the dominant form of modernity
See, this is why you should read Nick Land before posturing like you know what you know what you are talking about. The dominant form of modernity is regulation or governance (Nick Land calls it a controlled explosion), the compensation of pertubation created through the deterritorializing aspects of a teleoplexically slanted historical reality. Teleoplexy is not a determinist teleology, it is reflexively-self complicated. To call Nick Land an economic determinism is more ironic than it is insightful. This reads like the only Land you've read is 4chan shitposts

>>13155607
>posturing like you know what you know what you
Too many AI pills I see.
All you did with this is prove that you are incapable of logic.
If the dominant form is regulation
this implies subordination to Capital
meaning that Capital remains dominant

And
>the compensation of pertubation created through the deterritorializing aspects of a teleoplexically slanted historical reality.
is pure pseud shit, gobbledygook for academic hipsters.

Nice try though. Keep bluffing that you have a royal flush.

>>13155607
Fucking saved.

>>13155632
Nick Land's whole project is to make Capital dominant, he is working towards the emancipation of the means of production. If he thought Capital was dominant there would be no need for accelerationism. Read Teleoplexy
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u0CQDUgOfCJFoxX2rkdf5oC6kPk_cF7J/view

>>13155116
>rename your memes
Fucking retards.
if you have a tonne of memes then you can name them to search when you need to. Accelerationists should know something basic like this.

>>13155655
Yes, yes. So bad it's good and we must increase the badness.
Real capital is in the future and current capital is merely partial.
blah blah blah
None of your horseshit is at all relevant to what I said. Make an argument instead of copypasting your gobbledygook. if it has any meaning at all then it would be relevant in simple terms.

>>13155657
Classic Oedipalization. A true accelerationist resaves the image everytime he posts it for a new pseudorandom name in order to achieve maximum deterritorialization

>>13155676
Nothing about this contains a moral claim you absolute brainlet

>>13155691
>NeoEverything arrives from the HyperLiteral
See, this is why you can't meme.
You're an autistic fool. Go read an introduction to logic and put away the memes.

>>13155680
Cringe.

>>13155607
>The dominant form of modernity is regulation or governance (Nick Land calls it a controlled explosion), the compensation of pertubation created through the deterritorializing aspects of a teleoplexically slanted historical reality. Teleoplexy is not a determinist teleology, it is reflexively-self complicated.
Imagine demanding real discussion and then responding with shit like this. Get embarrassed accelfags.

>>13155716
different anon. neck yourself neoliberal filth.

>>13155737
Imagine actively rejecting a philosophical system because you can't understand it

>>13155737
>>The dominant form of modernity is regulation or governance (Nick Land calls it a controlled explosion), the compensation of pertubation created through the deterritorializing aspects of a teleoplexically slanted historical reality. Teleoplexy is not a determinist teleology, it is reflexively-self complicated.
This literally means that Capital is not only determinant but history itself was determined by the Becoming of Capital. It's marxist historical determinism with autism and psychotropics as the dominant class conflict.
You dumb cunts don't even understand what you are writing.

>>13155742
You might be retarded.

why does land spend all day boomerposting on twitter anyway, what's his master plan

>>13155758
No, it's not not simple dialectics, that's a common misreading
>§04. Prioritized compensatory orientation is a scale-free social constant. In control engineering it is the model of the 'governor' or homeostatic regulator, abstracted through the statistical-mechanical concept of equilibrium for general application to perturbed systems (up to the level of market economies)... In each case, compensatory process determines the original structure of objectivity, within which perturbation is seized ab initio. Primacy of the secondary is the social-perspectival norm (for which accelerationism is the critique).

>>13155749
This is meaningless drivel. It's just a bunch of postmodernist prefixes adding onto a halfwit understanding of Marx and Kantian solipsism-as-the-world-in-itself.
You're an embarrassment.

>>13155769
waiting to die

>>13155795
>meaningless drivel
the call of the brainlet in it's natural habitat

>>13155780
Where did I say it is dialectics? You have autism, bro. Go read what Aristotle says about considering opposing positions.
What I am saying is that it completely ignores dialectics, but the dialectic still functions. Regardless of any autistic screeching that capital is or can be everything, this is not reality, and never will be. It's shit theory based on a shit understanding of the world shilled to dumb shits like you.
In simple terms, this is exactly the same thing as some oil worker or ghetto kid thinking that the whole world is just like their own small corner. It's reductionism taken to the level of insanity, psychotropic-solipsistic-anti-idealism.

>>13155827
>history itself was determined by the Becoming of Capital. It's marxist historical determinism
That's dialectics, bro. Have you not read Marx either?

>>13155807
Explain it in the simplest terms possible. Use language that a brainlet can grasp. Pretend this really is on the level of a Plato, Nietzsche, or Heraclitus.
I guarantee you it will fall apart instantly, which is why you won't do it. Many of the best philosophers used simple language to say much more than this trash ever could.

>>13155838
Historical determinism is not dialectics itself, but a specific type of dialectics.
And a metaphor or analogy is not the same as the 'thing-in-itself'. Again, you need to learn some basic aspects of philosophy and writing before jumping onto algorithms and insisting there is some complex and deep meaning.
All you have offered are fallacies. Go back to the beginning and argue against what I said. >>13155564

>>13155855
here's some resources friend, you are probably better off reading any of these than some random on 4chins
https://jacobitemag.com/2017/05/25/a-quick-and-dirty-introduction-to-accelerationism/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D_qdPDEbddly2PapOImYtAoFHGECEHUQ/view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrOVKHg_PJQ
https://www.meta-nomad.net/nick-land-accelerationism-neoreaction-overview-guide/

>>13155880
You're argument was posed against a strawman, that isn't Nick Land's position. He's not an "economic determinist".
>map is not the territory
wow big brain here, wait till you get to second year anon, speculative metaphysics is going to blow your mind

>>13154996
thx

>>13155127
sonic is cool tbhquite

>>13155896
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrOVKHg_PJQ
this guy seems super nice

>>13155896
I understand it well already, what i am asking is for this person to prove that the ideas have relevance and that he can restate the ideas without all of the obscure and pretentious hyperwords.
For example, "the evaluation of teleoplexy is a research program which teleoplexy itself undertakes." What is the meaning behind this circular logic? And what is the point of combining Marxist valorisation wording with cybernetics when they essentially perform the same function? Does Land even have a clue what he is saying? This is simply feedback runaway of ideas, but stylistically and without the resolutions of systems theory. He continually restates Marx's positions with a bunch of gobbledygook and austrian injections which really add nothing other than misunderstanding and confusion.
These efforts actually lessen what is being said, and basically he is just saying it is a self-correcting system - all while dressed up in the language of an academia trying to datamine an avant-garde that doesn't exist.

In other words, he is trying to cut the widest path possible to mark his subjectivity. But if he really believed capital was determinant and that humans can accelerate the process then he would understand that success in this regard would only prove humanism; he would disprove his own anti-humanist project. Humanity would resubjectivise capital, making it subordinate.

Or in really simple terms, why the fuck doesn't an anti-humanist just shut the fuck up?

>>13155912
>You're
>brainlet
Nice job.
>Capital is sentient and must become everything
>neocameralism
>not an economic determinist
Keep embarrassing yourself. This is great.

>>13155995
>if he really believed capital was determinant
For the third time, this is a glib misreading. There is no determination in accelerationism
>and that humans can accelerate the process then he would understand that success in this regard would only prove humanism; he would disprove his own anti-humanist project. Humanity would resubjectivise capital, making it subordinate.
This sounds like an argument against right-wing accelerationism more than accelerationism as a whole. Acceleration is about removing containment rods which hold back social deterritorialization, not "accelerating" Capital in a linear sense.
>Or in really simple terms, why the fuck doesn't an anti-humanist just shut the fuck up?
Again, the fact that you pretend this is somehow an attack against accelerationism means you don't get it. This is what Nick Land says in that link I sent you.
>Naturally – which is to say completely inevitably – the human species will define this ultimate terrestrial event as a problem. To see it is already to say: We have to do something. To which accelerationism can only respond: You’re finally saying that now? Perhaps we ought to get started? In its colder variants, which are those that win out, it tends to laugh.

>>13156015
>Capital is sentient
Can you find me a single accelerationist that has ever said that? I'll be waiting

>>13154582
>Norbert Wiener
Based and penispilled

is this anything like burroughs?

>>13156157

>>13156058
There is always a determinant or some form of hierarchy. If there is no determinant why the focus on capital as beginning and end?
For example, if 'acceleration is about removing containment rods which hold back social deterritorialization' then the containment rods and deterritorialisation are determinant, or the most powerful objects being responded to by the adherents of the ideology. Otherwise, they can also be a reaction, to which one must ask, what is the end goal or determinant of this containment rod extraction? Again, for the fourth time, if the end is Capital then that is what is determinant. One does not have to read accelerationism on its own terms, one can understand it and then place it within a larger teleology, ontology, epistemology, etc.
You clearly don't get it. This anti-humanism is contradicted by the hyper-humanism at the core of the writing, and the 'NeoCthulhu arriving from the Spoopy' is an attempt to overdetermine what is not really there. Even if it were, the idea that humans can have any influence on such an impossibly powerful force is ridiculous, hubris against the very thing it seeks to worship.
To Land I would just say, you're way too late, and wrong.
"Life knows what it is doing, and if it is striving to destroy, one must not interfere, since by hindering we are blocking the path to a new conception of life that is born within us. In burning a corpse we obtain one gram of powder: accordingly, thousands of graveyards could be accommodated on a single chemist's shelf. We can make a concession to conservatives by offering that they burn all past epochs, since they are dead, and set up one pharmacy."
You will not speed up greater forces; you will only succeed in slowing them down, draining their power, resisting them. In other words, you will not deterritorialise that which has a greater understanding of the non-linear territory of rods which need to be pulled out. In relation, your perspective is indeed linear (imagine the plot of 20th century philosophy drawn out over a million years of thought, the rhizome's presence is but a speck).

You are simply playing semantic games to avoid really engaging and attempting to understand the essence of the discussion. There is a Truth that exists within time and across it, and our ideas engage with that Truth, most often passively. What relevance does accelerationism have within the eternal and the present? I am saying it has no relevance to the eternal, and only a minor curiosity for specific types within the present. If you want to talk DARK AND SPOOPY, these e-hip ideas are nothing more than a drunken poem on the bathroom wall of a long-abandoned truck stop. They are not even passive enlightenment, so any discussion of removing rods is just larping about shit you have no clue about.

>>13156296
I don't know why you are having so much difficulty with this. Schizophrenitization is the escape of determination, that's the whole point of the body without organs. Capitalism is a virtuality. Read Bergson, then Deleuze.
>capital as beginning and end
Capital enters into time perpendicularly as a structure, you are still thinking of time as linear
>One does not have to read accelerationism on its own terms, one can understand it and then place it within a larger teleology, ontology, epistemology, etc.
more needless strawman arguments
>At once a deutero-teleology, repurposing purpose on purpose; an inverted teleology; and a self-reflexively complicated teleology; teleoplexy is also an emergent teleology (indistinguishable from natural-scientific 'teleonomy'); and a simulation of teleology-dissolving even super-teleological processes into fall-out from the topology of time. 'Like a speed or a temperature' any teleoplexy is an intensive magnitude, or non-uniform quantity, heterogenized by catastrophes. It is indistinguishable from intelligence. Accelerationism has eventually to measure it (or disintegrate trying).
This is so strange because it's almost like you have read Land, and are intentionally misrepresenting every one of his points. Your reading of Land is equivalent to people who read Nietzsche and come away thinking he was a Nihilist who just wanted to kill God. I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is tasty bait. Good work anon.

Definitely not the warning label on the air duster you would need to huff in order to go anywhere near that bullshit

>>13156296

Not that anon, but I just want to say that you wrote a bunch of inane drivel without engaging in any philosophical argument. I shit on your "truth", what are you going to do about it?

>>13156530
Nice try, samefag.

First you need schizophrenia.

>>13155575
kek

>>13156478
>One does not have to read accelerationism on its own terms, one can understand it and then place it within a larger teleology, ontology, epistemology, etc.
How is this a straw man?
You clearly have no understanding of philosophy, so why try to pull such tricks?

Point out where I said time is linear. Talk about a straw man...
I am discussing the teleology, being, and ideas of acceleratism. They all center around Capital. This is not the same as a discussion of Time as linear. The beginning and end can also be a linear perspective within a non-linear framework, which I expressed. How do you not get that?

Nietzsche says some relevant things, even if his approach is, in some ways, similar to Land. The major difference is that Land does not have the insight, writing ability, or vitality of Nietzsche. Your quote, again, says nothing of substance, it is just a circle of circlejerking circular logic.
But if I am indeed misrepresenting every one of his points then perhaps you could point out which ones, as well as how I do so. All I am getting from you is fallacies, accusations, and deferment to irrelevant quotes (another fallacy).

As for hypersupercalifragilisticnoumenonelschizophrenterritoryialness, perhaps you could take the reigns and show just how much you know. Explain how this 'capitalism as virtuality' is somehow a greater form of understanding a small aspect of modern economy than Marx's Fragment. Also explain why the entirety of time, space, and philosophy should be read through the lens of a fringe economic theory in the age of the Last Men.

>>13156697
>Nick Land is bullshit
>Now kindly explain to me what Nick Land is talking about

>>13156724
What is the teleoplexy of the neocorrelation between the hyperinability of accelerationists not being able to DarkMeme and PostLogic?

Reminder
>>13155144
>WHERE'S THE REAL DISCUSSION!!!
>responds with more shit memes
You cunts are pathetic. At least one of you should be able to make a coherent argument.
Fucking hypocrites.

>Why, yes, I am an accelerationist.
Post what type of person you imagine.

>>13156861
>pic
definitely not someone who is as consistent with their beliefs as this

>>13155000
>Name one (1) thing conservatives have conserved.
acceleration
>Name two (2) things liberals have liberated.
conservatism and acceleration
>Name three (3) things accelerationists have accelerated.
conservatism, liberalism and acceleration

>>13156697

You are trying to find teleology and spirit where there is none. How is there a humanism because there is no determinant teleology? Its the opposite you brainlett, capital is a particular set of logical equations that result in accumulation , its the logic of the market. There is no ulterior teleology beyond that. Accellerationism isn't about any utopian future or finalizing anything, nothing ever ends and everything is in flux. Accellerationism is about INTENSIFICATION, its about flows and diagrams:

“At once a deuteron-teleology, repurposing purpose on purpose; an inverted teleology; and a self-reflexively complicated teleology; teleoplexy is also an emergent teleology (indistinguishable from natural – scientific ‘teleonomy’); and a simulation of teleology – dissolving even super-teleological processes into fall-out from the topology of time. ‘Like a speed or a temperature’ any teleoplexy is an intensive magnitude or non-uniform quantity, heterogenized by catastrophes, it is indistinguishable from intelligence. Accelerationism has eventually to measure it (or disintegrate trying). (514).

The only subject here is capital as intelligence, which function modaly and supplants what is human. That is Marx's argument by the way.

If you want the nuttshel, speculative philosophy about the human subject is over, what is at stake here is intelligence. Intelligence as raw power unleashed. The virtual is the possible and what is conceptually virtual is what is tied to what is real.

>>13156906
>>13156906
There is always a teleology, sweaty. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it does not exist.
Capital and markets are not the same thing. Just as economy and markets are not the same thing. But perhaps you could explain how and why Land deviates on this point. How does a manipulated market still contribute to the valorisation of capital? Is this just another hyperteleoplexy-postinfraplexy?
In your equation deference to the market is the teleology.
This just means that unending flux is your 'utopian future'.
If Accelerationism "about INTENSIFICATION" the INTENSIFICATION is its teleology, or let's say deontology. Why is this so hard to get?
How are flows and diagrams an INTENSIFICATION when you can;t even meme?

But you said that capital wasn't determinant and that I was wrong to see that in light of capital...
So you are admitting this is just Marx. So why all the bitching to finally admit it?

I get all that. So is the determinant a feedback loop of Capital/Intelligence/Virtual? Or is the liquidation of the human through valorisation and intelligent teleoplexy out into the virtual the end (which is not an end), or the black box (which is not a black box), or the output (which is not an output)? Which is the most powerful of these processes? Or is it just a trinity of feedback valorisation until the entire world is sucked into the void hugging their beanie babies?

And thank you for this. It really shows how you cannot even communicate beyond your meme ideology.

>>13156861
I picture Nick Land

>>13154964

>>13157079

I am not even that guy you were talking to, why do you call it even valorization of capital? You have missed the point entirely. There is no deference, there are multiple causes that cause this reflexive circuit known as capital to come about. It doesn't really matter why, it doesn't really matter what should one do with this. The deontological part is not contained here in as much as Nietzsche philosophy is contained in describing christian theology. If you are trying to critique Land for not being reflexive or for not having a teleology you are doing using the wrong tools. The crux of the argument isn't in some kind of apocalyptic endgame, its about what is already here, its about intelligence, what circuitrous and a feedback loop already in the social relations shaped by capital. Ultimately its about realism, there is no utopia.

not OP, but can there be an unironic answer to this question? I'd also like to know what to read first, and the 100 post argument doesn't really help

>>13157079
>hyperteleoplexy-postinfraplexy
Afaik there has been one Landian neologism mentioned in this thread, did it really throw you this hard?

>>13157233

There is no point really in reading him unless you have gone through the same philosophical education. The names don't matter , those who come to Land , come because they recognize a certain tradition of thought which they have arrived on their own.

>>13157233
Deleuze, so Marx? Heidegger, so ...Kant?
Accelerationism is, to a large part, an aestetic. The 90's cyber-punk updated with the hindsight of how the internet actually turned out (and, in some corners, with an uninoric embracement of what anime says and what it might mean).
I don't think Fanged Noumena is an entry point of any sort. Browse through it and then seek out some accelerationist blogs. Maybe come back to it eventually.

>>13157293
thanks, I'll consider this

>>13155000
LET THE BODY HIT THE
FLOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>13154564
I love Nick but its basically intellectual masturbation. You could probably just read it blind and see what you can get out of it.

>>13157173
You don't understand why valorisation is important in a study of Capital?
Okay, so what are the causes if they are not the same as what Marx said?

So I must adopt Land's philosophy and terms before critiquing him. How convenient...

Did you not follow the argument? The other person said that it was not about the present, that Capital is not in the present but the future. Following the argument does not mean I don't understand it, it means you have no understanding of dialectics.

Okay, so it's an irreal realism which takes liberalism to its most absurd conclusion. It's Edge Pinker, as the meme says.

>>13156861

>>13155607
>>13157241
Probably cause it's hilariously pseud.

There is a strangely potent bitterness to anti-accel-fag-posting that makes me wonder, why would anyone react to accelerationism in such a vindictive way? It's an ideology of resignation and despair, it eschews political offense or confrontation. It's like getting mad at someone for not arguing with you. Very strange.
Also imo using big words allows the brain to manipulate big ideas. The information packed into a definition does not linearly scale with the cognitive toll of using or understanding them, so having large numbers of well defined terms literally makes you smarter in a given subject and anyone who calls Land's writing pretentious inadvertently reveals themselves as stubbornly and proudly brainlet like this guy >>13157475

>>13157522
>samefagposting
>calling Grug a brainlet
Now THIS is epic.

>>13157522
>It's an ideology of resignation and despair
How so? It wants to make things even worse.

>>13157546
I don't know who you think I am but I took that posters words to be his own thoughts rather than feelsy drooling caveman roleplaying (but what's the difference)

>>13157571
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
The anti-accel-fag-posters are right. Accelerationists really cannot fucking meme.

>>13157582
You post this like we're on a political twitter community where the people you're talking to have defined their political identities out for you
You're assblasted and punching shadows man

>>13157596
>I can't tell the difference between a grug meme in reality
>HAHA YOURE SO ASSBLASTED
This is amazing. Thanks, you really made my day.

>>13157552
Well I don't think deteritorialization being a bad thing is necessarily a foregone conclusion, but even if taking it to be, wanting more deteritorialization is the objective but not the desire. As Nick put's it:
>The point of an analysis of capitalism, or of nihilism, is to do more of it. The process is not to be critiqued. The process is the critique, feeding back into itself, as it escalates. The only way forward is through, which means further in.
So the objective in some sense is to escape capitalism, not strenghen it, though the modus operandi seems counterintuitive
>>13157629
either you called Land's writing style pseud or you pretended to be a caveman calling Land's writing style pseud. The fact that you seem to insist on the latter is really fucking weird because it seems to align with your actual views, indicating that you view your views as those of a drooling caveman

>>13157522
>>13157571
God damn. The memes are teleoplexelerating into reality.

Put me in the screencap.

>>13157659
>YOU MUST IDENTIFY WITH THE OBJECT IN THE MEME
Jesus Christ, don't make an even bigger fool of yourself than you already have.

>>13157695
why the fuck did you say I called grug a brainlet when I was clearly calling YOU a brainlet? I'm literally flabbergasted as to what they fuck you think you were posting here >>13157546
Like I'm not trying to call you a caveman, so why did you keep insisting I was replying to one?

>>13157522
Based. Fuck brainlet /pol/lack virgins.

>>13157729
Because you did, dumbass.
> I took that posters words to be his own thoughts rather than feelsy drooling caveman roleplaying (but what's the difference)
>>13157571

>>13157546
did you get the poster mixed up with the meme he posted? How tf is that even possible. do you get upset when people call pepeposter's brainlets too?

Lovecraft but with Capital

>>13158796
Imagine trying to turn around this fuckup...

>>13157571
lmao

>>13155041
China was building time machines back then in their heads and families, which is what Sarte's referring to. Nick is saying its inevitable it would spill into the economy, and china's imperially imposed culture, the "capitalism containment unit", would fail

>>13159262
He actually thinks the containment system works much better in China
>You look at Chinese civilization and you say, well, what is it really doing? What’s it for? From a certain perspective, it’s a capitalism containment structure that obviously worked better in this traditionalist sense than the European one. The European one was too fractured, it was subject to a whole bunch of wild, uncontrollable influences, and unprecedented feedback structures kicked off that no one was in a position to master in Europe.
>And so we get capitalism and modernity in Europe, and capitalism and modernity is brought to China by Western gunboats. It’s not like they’re bringing a gift, what they’re bringing is … they’re coming to pull the [laughs] graphite containment roads out, you know, from outside. That’s what that process of Chinese modernization is. It’s a process of the indigenous Chinese process of containment being dismantled from outside until it then — obviously in a way that is no less spectacular than the one we’ve seen in the West — goes into this self-sustaining modernist eruption basically in the early 1980s.

>>13155564
Capital will always trend towards greater autonomy from regulation. crypto-currency is the first step of this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2019/05/15/a-u-s-congressman-is-so-scared-of-bitcoin-and-crypto-he-wants-it-banned/#75598b6a6405

The final step is autonomous weapons, which are already technically possible. America and its laws are already owned by private capital, if the democratically elected socialists try to squeeze too hard, i don't doubt there will be pushback.


>>13156296
I've always assumed Nick was trying to be ironic/edgy with his deontology, since the conclusions of acclerationism are so grim. Accelerate towards the emancipation of capital from humanity, and ultimately of the AI/machines from the "alignment" imposed on them by the capitalists. Why? Because there is no other direction to go.

What I don't understand then is his sincere endorsement of NRx. Is it just competition anxiety from China? Bitterness/alienation from growing influence of Cathedral on culture in the west?

>>13159276
Yeah it did work much better in China, and since they thought they were the centre of all civilisation, they assumed it would work forever.

But now we know that in a multi-polar world, without a "global revolution" and a global empire to enforce its containment, capitalism will always win out

>>13159401
There are a lot of signs that big tech is actually a product of the CIA/deep state.
As for bitcoin, it is hardly used. It's only relevance is as a black market/release valve. If it were a real threat it would be destroyed, and many of the major moves suggest it is already controlled.
The autonomous weapons you mentioned are built by the military, not the tech companies. Where it is the MIC they are intertwined, and this could be explained through other theories than capital.
And, of course, my example proves that it is the exact opposite of autonomy. But to use an example Accelerationists should be familiar with, Bataille discusses this in regards to the Marshall Plan where the West approaches Soviet levels of control. Instead of capital autonomy this returns humanity to the necessity of sacrifice. And in many ways the post-war period can be explained as cultural runaway, especially in regards to the social war and identity lunacy which evades any explanation based upon capital.
Even Land's approach can be seen from this perspective, which is part of what I am saying. He is trying to reconcile with fundamentally non-economic problems by using economic theories which are, arguably, not even true to begin with.

I don't see the conclusions as grim at all, perhaps to outsiders without a grasp. As well, Marx's theory already discusses capital as an escaped element, an abstraction which valorises of its own will and even creates an ecology of machines self-replicating. That's 200 years ago, and much of the fear has been condensed into base entertainment.
Feedback runaway and the inescapability of capital is a quite common theme, and was even borderline pop culture in the 1960s. Another example is important here, the very era where Land creates these ideas sees the supposed triumph of capitalism, but rather than a peaceful world state working towards capital acceleration we ended with perhaps the most incredible geopolitical achievement in modern history - an impoverished Russia rising up and bringing the only remaining superpower into crisis.

>>13160428
>bitcoin
and obviously speculation as a market, which is, again, not the same as capital itself.

>>13160428
Hardly used transactionally, but nonetheless valued. Institutional demand's been rising again, and the bull run will only continue as we approach the next recession in the US. It's only not a threat at the moment because the US is one of the countries most allied with Capital in the entire world. And even then it's still become another asset class in the portfolio of capitalists
It's also technically impossible to destroy it. The US would have to threaten the rest of the world with force and would still likely fail.

>already controlled
manipulated is not the same as controlled. the fact it is manipulated by capital -> pump and dumps etc, testify to the greater autonomy that capital has in the form of crypto vs govenrment issued currency

Weapons in general are built by tech companies, and paid for by the military. Autonomous weapons are built by no one, because the military knows that the companies that build them can use them for their own purposes in ways that isn't possible for conventional weapons.
But still, it's certainly easier today to strap a gun or a bomb on a consumer drone with a facial recognition system than it is to make an autonomous car.

The marshall plan accounted for <0.5% of gdp growth in recipient countries. It was a goodwill bribe to induct them into the US-led free trade order, contingent on the creation of a "unified European economy", which is why the Soviets rejected it.
It was absolutely in the interests of capital, by creating millions more market participants at a time when America was the economic powerhouse of the word.

>much of the fear has been condensed into base entertainment.
Yes it has been, which is why so many westerners view the future pessimistically and try to escape into a perennial present. Could you share why you don't think it should be grim? Judging by your points made in this thread, I'm assuming you're a Marxist who still believes you can put a cage over all the capitalists when the time comes, once they've invented enough for you to use in your utopia so that you never need them again.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with "Russia bringing the only remaining superpower into crisis" in the late 90s so I'm very much inclined to believe that this event you're referencing didn't matter much in the long scheme of things.
Same as your example of post-war counterculture. It "evades any explanation based upon capital" because it literally did not matter in the eyes of capital. The capitalists continued to do their work, with a few more fools to suffer along the way.

>fundamentally non-economic problems by using economic theories
Didn't Marx come up with the materialist conception of history? Where do you find it lacking?

>>13159401
>muh crypto-currency
It's a meme, you still need labor and unlimited energy to create a fully independent market with it. Marx will haunt you in your dreams.

>>13159401
>muh crypto-currency
It's a meme, you still need labor and unlimited energy to create a fully independent market with it. Marx and eco-fags will haunt you in your dreams for the end of times.

>>13160887
I'm not trying to sell you anything. Lots of potential coins working on scaleability and could kill bitcoin overnight if they get enough right. the fact that people are willing to buy this shitty first mover coin is proof enough of the demand for something like this

>eco-fags will haunt you
Typical liberal capitalist shill, trying to blame global warming on the consumer and not the system. I'll have you know my bitcoins are organically mined from solar energy

>>13157475
have teleoplex

>>13160887
Yes, a spectre haunts Capital. 'Fuck your dead' is the perfect slogan to exemplify this, it is the call of the end of individualism within its very triumph, and we see its effects playing out in the battle cries of Capital and its opponents. Of course, once Capital becomes everything, as the determinists insist it is doing, once it is finished fucking the dead of everyone else, it can only fuck its own, or be devalorised by the return of every fucked thing. What we are witnessing is total impoverishment, and Capital's sentiment for what it has destroyed. But there is no going back, because Capital was a political construction within the stumbling upon of an immense, even heavenly, amount of wealth. And without such a fateful standing reserve of wealth both the political and economic models of that age are now meaningless, there is no possibility of a sacrifice or accursed share; wealth must arise from other forms.

Even further, regarding bitcoin, let's say the theories of Baudrillard and Bataille are combined. We then see a hyperreality of return against the dead form of capital, a devalorisation of the hyperreal sphere. This is the other side of bitcoin. While no one is really using it, there are entire cities filled with the waste of mining, which is necessary to create a fictitious shortage - otherwise its value would remain nothing. What is created is a standing reserve of disuse, of value exhausted at its inception. Dead currency now produces the commodity which is instantly spent up, sent directly by wire transfer to the waste dumps and sand-filled bogs; no wonder it is entirely a black market shadow currency, and a speculative release valve for the Grey Market. It is one of the most destructive and wasteful inventions in history, akin to the oil fires in Kuwait that the firefighters would relight simply to keep working. Even NeoChina, which has mobilised and destroyed whole towns and cities for its industrialised zones, sees Bitcoin as too wasteful and destructive, and is considering a ban on its mining farms.

>>13161826
What this means, in Marxist terms, is that money acceleration is quickly approaching zero, even extraction of machine-labour value cannot keep up with the necessity of devalorisation, and the tendency of the rate of profits to fall has approached infinity (the West is 500 trillion in debt to an unknown). And what is ignored in the crisis of automation is that we have been in a crisis for some time, well before 2008 - we are already automated beings, and yet we are being replaced. But this seems impossible, the only return here is a return to subjectivity, not the end of the human, as that was our condition for more than a hundred years. Everywhere work appears as labour, and completely useless labour, to which even the most dull require painkillers to get through each day. In this sense, automation appears as a sacrifice, a returning image of work within a land where it has been lost. Artificial Intelligence is really only a mirror of our own becoming, our own being. If a Mobilised Prosthesis is able to replace the Invisible Hand this means that Capital has reached its end, devalorisation has occurred at a theological and mythic level. Capital appears as formal, no longer real. Human work will then reappear elsewhere, in other arenas and fields, perhaps in reconciling the greater forces which introduced these crises to begin with. We already see this in the drive to escape everyday banality and the soul-sucking void of the grey mass.

What we are witnessing is the great return on the debt incurred, and the absolute crisis of capital is already in full swing; which explains the descent of the markets into madness. Total impoverishment of the culture follows total deflation in the economy; or vice versa, it matters little in the escape from laws of banality. Whole sectors of the economy and government are now dedicated to market manipulation, a bureaucracy of control and valorisation of fake numbers, which in turn allows for the rise of completely useless and fake companies. Here we see Capital subsuming itself into Potemkin Villages, devalorising as initial public offering videos with the aesthetics of World Vision. Where one sees Woke Capital in the distorted mirror another sees a beggar who will never be king. Wealth - even in its impoverished form of Capital - is dying, and these companies are making sacrifices to the appearance of a new form of power: market diversification into political liquidity, total acquisition by federal banks. All channels are now in feedback runaway to maintain the hyperreality of capital, especially in the realm of belief - and none of it has any basis in the reality of our economic situation; and certainly not the cultural crisis (liberalism, identity, madness, another cold war, etc.).

Opposed to the Great Depression, the Great Sacrifice. Clown World is the foreclosure of hyperreality, the Great Devalorisation.

>>13160813
>marshall plan accounted for <0.5% of gdp growth
>the materialist conception of history? Where do you find it lacking?
In your post.

>>13160813
>Russia bringing the only remaining superpower into crisis
I mean formally and then really. The West is over mostly because of its military blunders and Russia's brilliant diplomacy/geopolitics in the past 25 years or so. Hardly anything to do with China, that's a meme. China's rise is almost wholly due to the blunders of the 'capitalist' West.

>>13160813
>Could you share why you don't think it should be grim? Judging by your points made in this thread, I'm assuming you're a Marxist who still believes you can put a cage over all the capitalists when the time comes
Kind of a long story in my own terms, but if we consider that hundreds of millions died in the wars of modernity some abstract loss of autonomy and identity isn't really going to grab hold of many people. And this loss has effectively already happened, it is the basis of 'Capital'. Most people already accept it, and those who need such theories are essentially trying to realign with truth, it is a lost way of being to them, similar to Teacher and Writer in "Stalker". They are reverse engineering themselves back into reality, to use overly technical language.
I am not a Marxist, but unfortunately I think it is the best grounding from which to have any mass discussions in relation to capital and modern economy. It is also an influence on accelerationists, so they should be somewhat familiar with the terms. My own terms would probably useless, they wouldn't be able to convey anything because of a completely opposed philosophy/language.

>>13161848
what are you saying then? that the sentiment of the marshal plan triumphs over its material efficacy? Yes what a massive sacrifice it was, giving up 3% of your GDP for 3 years to guarantee that western europe is reinstated into your economic empire, instead of risking them turning communist in the instability.

The marshal plan was literally conducted in the name of capitalism and the autonomy of capital through free trade, against the force of regulation, and capital control that was communism. So I'm not so sure what you're being glib about. Historical materialism is lacking because I can just believe a romantic story/interpretation instead.

>>13161864
The west is far from over. In fact, Russia is over if their grand plan for their future amounts to trolling retarded Americans on facebook. The US staged violent coups in SA to enforce the autonomy of capital across borders. Russia shared some incendiary maymays

China's rise is because they had a billion people working night and day in front of an assembly line for 2 dollars an hour. This isn't a "blunder" of western capitalism, it's by design - a race to the bottom. Western capitalists found a massive supply of dirt-cheap unskilled labour to work for them, and made bank in the process. Apple has the biggest cash reserves out of all companies in the world as a result of this. Where is the problem, from the perspective of capital?

>>13154564
everything.

Where is Girardfag?

>>13154615
Werent they more acid than jungle fans?

>>13164028
i'm here, i just think i said everything i needed to say about Uncle Nick and /acc stuff for a while, so i'm working on counting my breaths these days and trying to find another way of looking at things. four years or so of obsessive politics is enough for anyone. also learning about Jesus and looking at a lot of Van Gogh paintings.

as for OP's question, the Accelerate reader is what he wants, plus the /lit/ reader and the major theses on r/theoryfiction. some Moldbug too, a primer on Marx and ofc as much Deleuze as you can handle. Fanged Noumena really isn't that hard to understand, and there's no need to carry on past Meltdown if all you want to do is have a basic sense of why he is the way that he is. Kant/Prohibition, Circuitries and Meltdown will give you a rich sense of what Land is all about.

i'll repost my older reading list here also if anyone is interested.
>>/lit/thread/S11950708#p11963855
and the last Cosmotech thread too, for the links.
>>/lit/thread/S12056787

>>13164277
the Accelerate reader is the place to start tho because it contains teleoplexy, which is a uniquely Landian idea. it's not like he invents the concept of R&D out of whole cloth, or that Max Weber hadn't already drawn a crucial link between Protestantism and the ethic of saving, but Land takes it into the futuristic and cybernetic realms that he lives in, and you can understand from that perspective why he thinks of a lot of the other stuff that he thinks - for example, about BTC. there used to be a working link to it but now my browser is giving me warning signs. anyways, it's in the reader and there's a link to that in the previous post.

i often recommend this book also because it is not only a history of philosophy of technology, it's a comparative look at philosophy of tech in both the East and the West. another helpful resource to have for anyone wanting to explore /acc stuff further. there's a PDF copy of this in the mega posted in the Cosmotech link too. Yuk Hui's own essays on technology, neoreaction and Land are also worth anyone's time.

>>13164317
i guess in hindsight i might have preferred that in that megathread i had just stuck to extensively greentexting the relevant chunks of those texts that i have found most important to understanding Land and acceleration in general, but there was too much enjoyable conversation to be had and really i needed to rant and scream about a lot of stuff at the same time. plus i was still learning about a lot of new philosophers - Whitehead, for instance. but it would have been cool if those threads were a more helpful long-term resource for anyone wanting to learn about Land &c without having to wade through a dense jungle of my own schizo-rambling and dubious musical stylings.

ah well. live and learn, i suppose. i still think that making nice with Land one way or the other is a crucial part of coming to understand philosophy in the 21C, particularly the Strange Fate of Postmodernity. Land connects the dots all the way from Hegel, which makes a kind of a nice story, and there's a fuckload of other things to learn about along the way. i guess for my own mental health i'm kind of realizing that whatever it was i wanted to learn about i was more or less satisfied by the time i got to that point, and if after him i kind of get used to a mildly psychedelic process-philosophy view of reality i'm okay with that. that was the Wild Ride inasmuch as it disclosed itself to me.

maybe someday i'll come back and just start a new thread tho just to make a more helpful guide to the major points and thinkers along the way, with relevant greentexting and minimal commentary, for future use by anyone else who wants to learn more, and doesn't need so much of my own stuff.

>>13162716
>trolling retarded Americans on facebook
YIKES.

>>13162716
>Where is the problem, from the perspective of capital?
lol
https://youtu.be/42WNHGr1jGI

>>13162716
But anyway, thanks for giving more evidence that engaging with accelerationists is a complete waste of time.>>13157571

>>13164963
>>13164973
>>13164994
nice to see your successive responses devolve more and more into non-sequiturs as you run out of space to manoeuvre (since you are wrong) but still need to maintain airs of being right.

Yea clearly the waste of time was talking to me, not the person who is making no points anymore, probably never had one in the first place, and hadn't made a single argument earlier that I didn't refute.

I dont know why you linked that post but >>13157522
is right, the caveman meme was the most stupid reductive meme i've ever wasted my time trying to read. go try to smash capital with a rock today and see how far you can get before they drone strike you.

>marged zendied
No, retard, people are sentient. Capital is the will of powerful in their pursuit for more power. It is march to the victory of that aspect of humans over all other atavistic features of humanity.

Anyways this is the problem discussing material reality with struggling spin doctors, wannabe ideologues who haven't yet given up. Stay in denial friend

>>13165271
All those words and not a single argument.
This is why people only use memes to engage with you retards.

>>13165271
>IT ALL COMES DOWN TO CAPITAL
Imagine an accelerationist calling anyone an ideologue.
Keep recycling 200 year old theories.

>>13165271
Explain in a single paragraph how capital is the controlling factor of modernity. You did not refute a single thing from this post >>13155564
You're the one relying on dogma and fallacies, and no doubt this is just sophistry tactics, but that just proves how willing you are to go against 'material reality'.

>>13165326
An argument to what? You literally said nothing in the posts I replied to. Talking about projecting

>>13165381
I did respond in >>13159401

Regulation has been the dominant force since agriculture. And yet over time it's had to make more and more concessions to capital because it is far more efficient at growth. Case in point, the USSR, which exercised its power in controlling "mechanisms of valorsation", could not remain competitive with the US.

Commies always seem to assume the capitalists are leeches, when, short of being a Landlord, all capitalist activities are doing work. Even money lenders are meant to take on risk for a potentially productive venture that needs resources. This didn't happen when the US bailed out the banks in 08, and in the process devalued the capital held by its citizens in its currency. This is why bitcoin was invented, so that your capital could be free of the whims and profligate spending of the state. At every step of the way, capital is the one inventing technologies, and trying to use these technologies to preserve and enhance their own power.

Btw in WWII the allies were the capitalists. The nazis were fighting on the side of regulation. Aside from that war is the only condition where the capitalists will pay it back, since the state is defending their existence and ownership claims. In peace time however, it is more zero sum. And yet in peace time the US nonetheless continues to spend a trillion dollars every year, %s of GDP that have not been witnessed outside of wartime. Truly flexing that dominance of regulation over capital, until it flexes a bit too hard and has to default, leaving its currency worthless and bitcoin 2.0 as the de-facto world currency for free trade. then we will see what the dominant form of modernity is

>descending through law, technology, politics, and capital
The law enshrines capital and private ownership, and protects it with the force of the state. And in countries where the law serves the king instead of the capitalists (ie China) the rich are desperate to move their money out. Technology is the tool of capital, that it will invent if need be to see that its needs are met.

Materialist apostasy is the trend of history. This is why you're making your case as a westerner who wants to pretend you didnt sell your soul to capital already (bonus points if you happen to live in the US), instead of a native american or "noble" tribal.

>>13165584

>>13154615
How is GYBE related to Land?

>>13165605
Lol you asked for an explanation based on capital. I assumed case you wanted to criticise it and not dismiss it out of hand. You're really putting me in my place here, by offering no substantial rebuttals to anything i've said.

Anyways you clowns can believe whatever you want. I'm just a bit surprised you haven't noticed yet that most of the world already worships at the feet of capital. Chasing their own purchasing power so they can pursue whatever sick new pleasures and perversions their fellow capitalists cook up for them in the future.

Where is this great power of yours that's going to come and stop the capitalists? you cant even get a carbon tax up and running in the US, let alone impose it on the rest of the world

Despite the shitflinging, this was an overall good thread. Unironically good arguments from both sides.

>>13155118
>Live Nick Land
I don't understand why Land isn't on estrogen but all his acolytes are. Perhaps he is on estrogen but hasn't disclosed it?