/lit/ - Literature

Lucifer in Paradise Lost being misunderstood and a victim

OP is expecting like 1000 replies going "ZOMG RETARDS! FRANKENSTEINS MONSTER ACTUALLY WAS THE VICTIM, THATS THE WHOLE POINT!" but we're not that stupid, now are we kids?

>>13096450
People trying to promote Houellebecq as sex positive are pretty funny.

Leopold Bloom had gender dysphoria and was secretly Muslim

>>13096464
Of course not, sir. *Sniffing* we're better *sniffing* than that. Hmm smells like delicious bait.

>>13096470
>Leopold Bloom had gender dysphoria and was secretly Muslim

>>13096457
THIS
this fucking burns my ass so much
Satan basically goes around twirling his mustache, cackling, and boasting about how EVIL he is
he's also the cause of all his problem and is too much of a vain-ass dickhead to realize it
I really can't wrap my head around how people can think he's the hero, unless it's just because he's the main character and they're that stupid

>>13096470
>Leopold Bloom had gender dysphoria
does being gay counts? because he defnitly was gay

>>13096469
>Houellebecq
didn't the art of struggle had something about this kind of thing?

Satan in the bible being the voice of reason and free thinking rather than pure evil is definitly one.

>>13096450
>starting your point calling other people "snowflake students"
Fucking people don't know how to properly argue anymore

>>13096538
They also haven't read the book in question, obviously

>>13096450
Achilles is gay and in relationship with Patroclus

>>13096538
>>13096545
>murderer
>a literal monster
>not a victim
the book was written as a warning to what technology could bring (by a woman with a poor understanding of it), not as whatever you're making it out to be

>>13096553
There are two aspects to the book: playing God, and the meaninglessness of life.

>>13096450
Holden, Phoebe etc

>>13096534
No, that’s the point. Free thinking is evil to every cult

>>13096555
thats an adaptation
very different

>>13096581
>cult
kys vargfag/fedoralord

Ishmael and Queequeg were gay lovers

>>13096469
Houellebecq is a degenerate fellatio-enthusiast

>>13096596
honestly makes senses
why else would they have a tattoed cannibal on board if it wasn't for rough sex?

>>13096591
You can't adapt something without interpreting it. This adaptation presents a retarded interpretation of the work.

>>13096692
>This adaptation presents a retarded interpretation of the work.
No, they interpreted it jus fine and then they changed stuff around to suit their demogrphic

>>13096594
Oh pardon me

Every One True Faith condemns free thinking. They always demand complete submission

>>13096553
>books can only mean the most literal thing ever
Yeah, you can't make your taste into the book, you can't make an interpretation out of your anus, but literature is open and can be read in multiple ways by multiple readers in multiple times.

It doesn't mean that i agree with the tweet tho

nor disagree

>>13096850
...which results in a retarded, bastardized expression of the ideas in Dante's Inferno.

>>13096874

There's only one One True Faith, silly!

>>13096581
You're not a freethinker and /lit/ isn't a cult. People shit on your posts because they're retarded and unfunny.

>>13096538
It's the British press m8, they're the height of shitty journalism

>>13096555
Hawt.

>Plato's Republic is satire

>>13096450
prove that evil isn't misunderstood and a victim. protip: you literally can't

>>13096464
>murders multiple innocent persons
>constantly forces people to do his bidding using threats and violence
>victim
t. liberal snowflake

>>13096941
Evil is misunderstood by itself and a victim of itself. See Satan in Paradise Lost.

>>13096555
The part where you kill unbaptised babies made me shoot hot spurts of atheist cum on my Flamin' Hot Cheetos.

>>13096523
>the serpent me beguiled
I think Milton anticipated people liking Satan, but set that up to prove how easily it is to fall in to these seductive but dangerous viewpoints. Weirdly enough though, does repeat things that Milton himself had said in his political works verbatim, so that’s kind of interesting.

>>13096596
>SAILORS that sleep together aren’t gay
Whew lad

>>13097277
Not weird at all. It makes perfect sense that he would have the personification of evil misuse what he believed were good ideas. Think less about what he's saying than why he's saying it.

>>13096450

The idea that Shakespeare's The Tempest is all about colonialism.

>muh oppressed other

>>13096469
>>13096530
>the art of struggle for pusy

>>13096470
>Leopold Bloom had gender dysphoria
This is an uncontroversial position supported in the text.

Can anybody recommend any authors/professors that discuss political/social commentary on the west following the fall of the Soviet Union?

>>13096470
But he definitely had gender dysphoria.

>>13096581
>>13096874
>ghuu fnhemd omphj muh free zinkin good!

>>13096874
Jesus rebuked the religious and loved the sinners.

>>13096594
>>13096898

I get the appeal to shit on the trip poster, but catholic-/lit/ is absolutely disgusting.

>>13096882
It's a video game you sperg. What did you expect?

>>13096885
Clearly there’s several

>>13096898
>You're not a freethinker and /lit/ isn't a cult.
I think pretty freely, actually. People hate me for it. It you’re right, /lit/ isn’t a cult
>People shit on your posts because they're retarded and unfunny.
They probably are mentally challenged, true. No need to be mean about it though. Unfunny certainly.

>>13098264
You’re on the wrong, anon. Shove off.

>>13098264
>muh "believe in order to know" isn't absolute nonsense!

>>13096885
Clearly there’s several

>>13096898
>You're not a freethinker and /lit/ isn't a cult.
I think pretty freely, actually. People hate me for it. But you’re right, /lit/ isn’t a cult
>People shit on your posts because they're retarded and unfunny.
They probably are mentally challenged, true. No need to be mean about it though. Unfunny certainly.

>>13098264
You’re on the wrong board, anon. Shove off

>>13098306
Irrelevant. A shitty representation of Dante is a shitty representation of Dante.

>>13098318
You're on the wrong website tripwhore shove off
:3

>>13098313
T. Non-believer
it just works
Are you familiar with the consciousness dot project?

>>13098332
We read books here.
That’s why it says it’s a literature board. Look the word up. This is not a Christian safe space

>>13098332
Stop enabling her with your stupid faggotry :3

>>13098339
>it just works
no it doesn't
it's literally saying "I will base everything on an unjustifiable belief and pretend that it's knowledge"

>>13096450

Frankenstein is a purely misanthropic and antinatalist piece of literature
It makes me very attracted to Mary Shelley to be honest

>>13098362
Who is this Natalie and why did she hate her so much?

>>13098318
And you, by dismissing a tradition of two millennia without ever having as much as looked up a wikipedia article, are the smart one here.

>>13096882
That's their adaptation, you don't get to dictate what the di with it commie

>>13098341

/lit/ IS NOT AN ATHEISTIC, NOR AGNOSTIC, «SAFESPACE»; YOU ARE THE ALIEN HERE.

>>13098406
Why exactly am I not allowed to criticize it? It's an utter misrepresentation of the work they were trying to "adapt".

>>13098405
>He thinks I don’t know
What of the traditions of 20,000 years? Rhetorical question, I know what you’ll answer. Don’t bother.

>>13098408
It is a board for BOOKS, not one book

>>13098329
>the medium doesn't matter

Why do you do this to yourself? It's a video game, it's just using Dante as reference. Of course it's not a good representation of the original works, it's not supposed to be, it's supposed to be fun and make you press buttons and feel rewarded. You're missing the point of the thread.

>>13098454
>It is a board for BOOKS, not one book

CHRISTIAN LITERATURE IS VAST.

>>13096549
This is a big one. It’s no where implied by Homer and only later historians thought it up

>>13098464
>video games are inherently mindless schlock
I don't see a how it's impossible for a video game to accurately represent the Inferno. Can you please help me to understand?

>>13098465
>apologetics
You know what I mean

>>13098479
Literature implies these things. They’ve been greentxting since before the written word

>>13098418

>misrepresentation
They never claimed it was a 1:1 adaptation.
Do you bitch about Apocalypse Now being In Vietnam too?

>>13098516
I literally sat in a class with a dude who thought the Inferno was about a dude going through the circles of hell to kick demon ass because of that fucking game.

>>13096581
>>13096874
>>13098318
>>13098341
>>13098454
>>13098499
1. Click Settings (bottom/top of page)

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faithful Dante's Inferno would be the GOAT walking sim

>>13096555
post the cover, you know you want to

>>13098487
I don't know any good book that came out good by accident. If a book is well thought out and constructed, it was made to be this way by the author.

Developing a game like this one is expensive and involves a lot of people. And the aim is to entertain. It's not going to be deep by accident. Just like you can't expect a deep thoughtful experience out of an avengers movie or the latest Disney garbage.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be good in another universe where shit didn't have to turn a profit, but it's just not the case right now.

>>13096450
That's not a modern interpretation, that's just an obvious part of the story.

>>13098564
None of that makes it not shit.

>>13098544
So why haven’t you? Stfu

>>13098586
honestly, kill yourself

>>13096874
this

Christfags are mentally children.

>>13096450
The wretch does kills people; however, he is also victimized himself, hence the characterization of a 'wretch', which comes from the old English for a banished person. It's not like it cancels out all the evil that he's done, nor does he deserve forgiveness just because society hates him. In the book, both Frankenstein and the wretch victimize each other until they both become monsters banished to the arctic circle. Although, knowing how sjws operate, I assume they take a less nuanced approach and mean he is utterly innocent, which negates his monstrous acts.

>>13098565
You need to go dialate now, soiboi.

>>13096450
But Frankenstein's monster WAS misunderstood. People's dismissal of the Monster is what motivated him to commit the atrocities that he did. Obviously that doesn't mean he's a good boi who dindu nuffin but he definitely started out with good intentions.

>>13098710
>>13098717
this

>>13096450
The Sun is truly one of the, if not the most, retarded popular news outlets.

>>13098479
They literally discuss in Plato's Symposium who was the top and who was the bottom, this argument isn't some modern interpretation, it's an argument that has been going on for millenia jesus read a book

>>13098544
Thanks brother

>>13098479
yes i hate that sjw aeschylus and his postmodern gay agenda

>>13098717
Actually the story about that part was told from the monsters perspective. I have always believed that the monster lied to gain sympathy.

>>13098826
No, he was just an incel

>>13098544
Thanks Brother

>>13098826
>I have always believed that the monster lied
nothing in the book suggests that. if we're going full fanfiction then you might as well say that the sailor is just making shit up to freak out his wife and the whole story is meaningless.

>>13096450
the famous five books have been altered to reduce the sexism and xenophobia and references to corporal punishment

>>13098826
If he was the type of person to screw with people without being provoked why would he be the type to lie to garner sympathy? He's not civilised enough to be manipulative like that.

>>13096457
Or worse, "lucifer was secretly milton's self insert"
byron was a stupid projecting peabrain

>>13096450
Well, he literally was in a sense.

>>13096508
> and was secretly Muslim
makes sense lmao

>>13098318
uh oh, you made a grammatical error in reading to that second post! try again

>>13098537
>misusing the world literally this badly
I'm sorry but you don't belong here.

>>13098710
tldr

>>13098723
If it was unpopular you'd be praising it

>>13096534
>free thinking
well, god certainly isn't either.

>>13096450
That's because Frankenstein was unironically an incel

>>13098544
>>13096594
>>13098264
>>13098339
>>13098405
Notice how much more angry and baseless Christian larpers sound than the average /lit/ post, because they lack actual arguments, and so need to make up for it in toxicity.
They desecrate what they hold sacred in the process (by making people think it produces toxicity), but it's not like they care, because they only respond to protect their fragile ego.

>>13098405
>And you, by dismissing a tradition of two millennia
lol
And you, by dismissing the tradition of shitting in bushes, which has been around for tens of thousands of years without ever having as much as tried it, are the smart one here.

>>13098564
>he thinks Dante's the divine comedy is not entertaining and looks to it for "meaning"

>>13099393
you didn't (You) me and I'm not a larper, but I shitpost similarly so I'll answer you anyway.
I make throwaway non-argument posts like that whenever I can't be arsed to have the same conversation for the hundredth time that usually goes nowhere because virtually all atheists who talk like butterfly hold their beliefs out of emotional pain or insecurity, not thoughtful inquiry. For every one person who has genuine concerns about "if God then why bad things happen" there are a thousand more who just use it as a rhetorical shield for their visceral loathing of all things Christian. Those people aren't worth actual arguments, so they get memes instead.
And I also do make that effort sometimes. It's rarely productive, but I still do it when I have the time.
>They desecrate what they hold sacred
you're imposing a cause and effect that I don't think I or anyone else has to accept. You might assert that these actions are descration, but I think you can't argue it.
Posting brainlet pictures is not any more toxic than calling all of Christianity a cult, and I certainly hope no one labors under the delusion that this is a true and open discussion of religious ideas happening ITT. There are shitposts about everything, why should religion be any different?

I am glad Frankenstein killed himself at the end

I fucking love waking up and going onto lit and immediately getting so angry so fucking angry about a twitter screenshot I should post a angry wojak ahahshahashahahh

Reminder that Satan is literally controlled opposition and that YHVH has cucked all Abratards

>>13096450
https://youtu.be/S9ieF7LVbyI

>>13096596
i wrote a paper on the homosexual relationships in Moby Dick in college. i got an A for a 6 page long shitpost

>>13099539
This, but unironically. I hope twitter gets nuked.

>>13099606
What is this? I'm not watching that?

>>13096450
Wasn't the entire point that the monster was the victim of the doctor's tampering with life and he didn't want to live?

>>13100292
>Frankenstein as antinatalist fable
Cheers anon, you just inspired my next shitty article

The monster had no soul and no moral compass.
Victor tried to play God and lost his humanity.

>>13099393
> (by making people think it produces toxicity)
I’ve noticed this dynamic elsewhere too

>>13099618
Legit internets. Spend them well

>>13096874
And that's good. Piss off tranny

>>13098586
TF;DR (tripfag;didn't read)

>>13100411
>I’ve noticed this dynamic elsewhere too
Cool, so your mother's a faggot too.

>>13096538
And whose fault is that? Perhaps of those people that passed the last 70 years radicalizing public dialogue?

>>13101974
What did he mean by this?

>>13096472
I thought you would say delicious feet

>>13096457
>>13096523
>Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven
Do you not sympathize with that at least?

>>13098544
thanks, now i can stop telling butterfly to kill himself

>>13099468
fuck you

>>13102392
I see as Lucifer in general as a puppet in gods plan in furthering the human. This is better shown in "Faust" where Mephisto is evil but a necessary evil for life.
I dont like seeing the whole of christian mythology in general as a pre-human condition but as an intrinsic part of one human.

I never get christians who seethe at Lucifer but I also never get le enlightened atheists.

Lucifer as person was based though

>>13096450
God, the Sun is an embarrassment to this nation

>>13097358
How the fuck is that even an interpretation, there only one semi-relevant character to support that among a whole play about revenge and love.

>>13102392
Okay settle down Eve.

>>13096581
The point is that we can commit sin because we are free-thinking, we gained self-awareness so now we can understand how horrible things we can do can be - thus doing these things are truly evil because we understand the weight behind them. This is the allegory of Adam and Eve.

The point is to strive to be the best person you can be in the eyes of God, while realising that it is human to make mistakes and sin. Anyone who judges and hates others through Christianity is not Christian, American republican-voting southerners can never be considered Christian, as Jesus said that those that judge others should be judged just as much by God. My point is, can you please respect the religion of other people and at least understand them before dismissing them and critiquing them with a basis on its reputation within popular culture. If you think Christianity was a religion of hate then you are wrong, it was always about love for your fellow man.

this is why liberation theology is so based

>>13103946
Please google "no true scotsman", thank you have a nice day.

>>13104031
But it literally says in the bible that judging others is bad

>>13104035
That's not the operating definition of what makes someone a Christian, please just read the wiki article and it will all become clear.

>>13104035
No it doesn't, it says not to judge people to a standard you yourself are unable to fulfill.

>>13104031
Read the sermon on the mount, the true path is narrow

>>13102392
It's easy to sympathize it, but you should also understand that placing one's spiritual relationship to God in such terms of worldly governance is already a fallen mental state.

>>13098369
The amazon from Wilhelm Meister

I hope this thread is a joke. if you're actually, completely unironically injecting anti-egalitarian "F-F-F-F-FRANKENSTEIN WAS A M-M-M-MONSTER WHO D-DESERVED EVERYTHING TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-TH-THAT HAPPENED TO HIM" bullshit into the book, then you're actually worse than people who inject feminist bullshit into Homer

>>13098313
t. Doesn’t understand how positions work
>>13099393
>psychoanalysis is place of an actual argument

>>13102392
>power lust is good
Nope

>>13106162
Seething

>>13103946
>first paragraph
Redpilled
>second paragraph
Bluepilled

>>13096450
>Shakespeare was serious writer and not a huge meme writer who did advanced parody and comedy

>>13103946
based through and through

Bump

>>13096523
Milton simply had a good Satan. One that many people will directly prefer because of the edge or the pride.

>>13097277
>>13096457
>>13096523
because Lucifer literally represent LIBERALISM and we live in a liberal society, not surprising he is viewed as a hero

>>13102392
Sometimes, but I know it's weakness.
Going full retard because God is above you is pushing it.

>>13096450
>>13096457
>>13096523
>>13096534
>>13096549
/pol/ has really killed every board hasn't it? It's rare to be disgusted by something on here, but it usually happens because some /pol/ incel spouts his anti intellectual diarrhea and his friends then join in.

>>13107518
Intellectuals are cancerous tumor on society with no purpose. It's a dangerous priest class that in ideal society needs to demonstrate its worthiness by passing sati every five years to keep post of intellectual or resign and live as hermit on gruel and water to end of his days. Pol Pot, Hitler, Moldbug, Land, Gentile, Evola and Sowell all understood that.

>>13099393
It is because theyre literal garbage, they're the scum of 4chan and they know it but they hide behind this baseless attitude of being "non degenerate" and "Christian" (add to this whatever flavour of the day definition of Christianity and degeneracy they have)

>>13098733
Well, Plato was a retard and a homosexual anyway.

>>13107520
>/pol/ cross posting cancer calls others cancer
Ironic.

>>13107529
Just like you.

>>13099393
>calling people who help others filter trips toxic
I really don't mind anons arguing. A lot of good points made in this thread. Tripcodes just lead people to believe that their opinion carries more weight because of its tie to a recognizable name.

>>13098341
>This is not a Christian safe space
unironically based.
>moral of the bible is that knowledge is bad
tickled my apricots
>>13099393
lmao.
>npc encounters [bad feel]
>formulating reply...wait...loading
>y=y-y-y-y-you need GOD

>more than 5000 religions
>more than 100 million gods
>the one religion my mommy happened to raise me on is correct RRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEE
eternally seething

>>13107952
You and your /pol/ friends should all get a Tripcode the second you posted on /pol/, at least then we could block you pseudo christian incels

>>13103823
Better than the moon, but of course saying that would be illegal in the UK since it's illegal to criticize Islam
Has your wife spread her kegs for Jamal today?

>>13106162
>monster with no soul
>not evil
Come on.

>>13108565
Perhaps it should be a little yellow band? You know nothing of Christ.

>>13108206
>it is impossible to know the truth, so give up and do evil

>>13106254
Have you read his sonnets?

>>13102392
>>13105574
I guess you can only accept that kind of submission as a good thing if you feel a strong religious connection. For modern secular people the only thing in the story left to relate to is a guy willing to suffer for independence and self determination.

>>13104381
>>13104035
Crucially, it is not the person who is hated, but the sin. Unlike you, we see the torment they experience and feel sorrow. When we see someone engaging in perverse behavior, we are angry that they have done so, and we are angry for the innocent, but we lament that this person has wound up in such a condition.

>>13109248
>the soul is real
come on

>>13106229
its a revolt against power lust you rard

>>13096450
Fight Club is about toxic masculinity.

>>13109445
That is literally what Christians do

>>13102392
materialist worldview

>>13105574
How is a spiritual relationship any different from a worldly relationship different in any way. At the end of the day it's still someone who has more power than you dictating how you spend your time. No one asks to be brought into existence, so the creator incurs a debt to the created. That debt being a "not bad" existence. The creator has no authority to order anyone to do anything, unless you believe that might makes right.

>>13107518
>Can't even use incel in context
You can fuck off back to tumblr now.

>polytheistic religions
>allah,God and Yahwew are different because they have a different name!

Also

>not converting to the true Orthodox faith

>>13099459
>>13100411
>>13106226
>>13107527
>I leave /lit/ for one year and tumblr's poured over into it
Anons, this shit needs to get sorted out. You're letting tripshitting leadditors circlejerk and huff their farts to pseudo-intellectual screeds on your front page. It's like Daily Kos in 2007, Christ. Also, wasn't the butterfly tripfag a camwhore who forced lactation through hormones and herbal supplements on /gif/?

>>13110248
I actually met a Muslim once who claimed that God and Allah are two different deities that actually exist and that sure, you *could* worship God, but Allah is stronger and more righteous so why not be Muslim instead?

>>13096877
>you can't make an interpretation out of your anus
>he doesn't make an interpretation out of his anus every morning

>>13096457
but he was the good guy all along!
t. bill blake

>>13110097
But Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though you are not speaking of Christianity itself, but rather your perception of Christianity as someone who feels like they would be limited and restrained by the moral views of the Church.

I suck off cops.

>>13111635
Does it taste like bacon

>>13110309
muslims can be retarded you know

>>13097358
>>13103849
I think it's fair to say that Caliban is based on European experiences with savage races, and even that The Tempest has some things to say about colonialism, but to say that "it's about colonialism" is retarded. Unfortunately, postcolonialism is an approved discussion subject whereas love, revenge, and loss are not.

>>13108206
I wasn't raised in my religion.

>>13107540
kek, sick burn

>>13111777
Is nobody going to acknowledge these numbers?

>>13112742
Why did you pick this one?

>>13112742
Kek, sick burn

>>13098878
>>13098826
I think Frankenstein himself is the most unreliable narrator, blinded by hubris, shifting the blame towards the monster and not taking responsibility for the thing HE created. The final account by the monster serves to set the records straight, not make himself appear favourable. Why would he lie to appear favourable when he commits suicide directly after talking to walton?

Also I believe the book IS MEANT TO PAINT THE MONSTER AS A VICTIM. Shelley was a Romantic, a particularly humanistic movement that were known for their sympathetic interpretations of Milton's Lucifer. So it would make sense that a similar message is associated with the monster.

>>13115146
>alsoo I believe the book IS MEANT TO PAINT THE MONSTER AS A VICTIM
See >>13100332

>>13115214
its true that victor tried to play god and lost his humanity but the creature clearly has a soul. He can appreciate the beauty in nature, the writing of paradise lost and yearns for the connection of the villagers he watches. these are not things a soulless monster would do.

>>13115364
The monster lied to gain sympathy. It's that simple.

>>13096450
>>13096457
lmao

lmFao if you guys are serious

>waaahhhh I wanna be a slave of my flesh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttxumEkHnKE

Continue seething alone in your room, /lit/ has no place for you, we hold the truth high and examine and celebrate literature, not broken ideals