/lit/ - Literature

How about not splitting the church again because we apready know sectarianism has devastating effects? How about finding parishes or religious orders within the church which accomadate the particularities of your spiritual needs within the sanctioned variety of Mother Church?

How about trusting the Spirit to guide the Church through these difficult times even when it is difficult for you to understand why this or that aspect of the Church seems to be changing or not changing?

Pray for the Church and be faithful to Her! She does not need more naysayers and enemies.

>>13003657
Wait a second are you trying to Avignon me right now?

Become a priest. Purge the church of the bad influences from the inside. Who knows, you might even become Pope one day.

>>13003723
>in my lifetime a pope may come into power who frequented this board

>>13003657
What kind of orders follow the trad catholic way?
What are the requirements for these orders?

The Destruction of the Christian Tradition by Rama Coomaraswamy is probably the best exposition of the sede vacantist opinion. If that last name sounds familiar, it is because Ananda Coomaraswamy. the great Sri Lankan metaphysician, friend of Guenon, and religious scholar was his father. The book makes some good arguments, but again, I think the issues in actually implementing sede vacantism make it better to support the FSSP and similar orthodox traditionalist organizations. I.E. Rama Coomaraswamy was ordained as a priest while married and the legitimacy of the ordination was questionable at best. Most sede organizations end up either splitting up quickly due to internal disagreements (if you deny the Church once and split, why not do it again according to that logic) and then losing influence as a result.

The way of create a rebirth in the Church is to reemphasize the monastic - Church relationship like what occurs in the Eastern Catholic Churches, allow for priestly marriage (Nearly all the Apostles were and it is already accepted in the Catholic Church, just not in the Latin rite which most Catholics are a part of), and return to the traditional mass. Let the stragglers fall off if they don't like it.
I would happily become a Priest at this very moment if I didn't have to be celibate and deny my parents the opportunity of having grandchildren. In fact, I would consider being ordained in the Byzantine rite but I would need to find a wife before ordination.

>>13003788
The SSPX, FSSP, and Institute of Christ the King are all reactionary traditionalist orders. The Dominicans are known to be somewhat more traditional in their leanings, but most often are fine with Vatican II. The Carthusians, Benedictines, and other monastic orders are almost always traditionalists in their outlook. The Ukranian Greek Catholic Church and other eastern rite Churches are always traditional in their liturgical outlook, but not always in the theology (usually they are conservative though).
They all have similar requirements. They all want to see young men who are committed to some sort of job/school before entering the seminary and isn't a neet; they generally look for a recommendation from a few other priests/religious leaders in the community that you would be a good candidate; some won't take men who are in debt, although some are very generous and will help you pay it off. Ultimately, you should be praying daily, going to confession weekly, and attending mass as often as you can.

>>13004540
>deny my parents the opportunity of having grandchildren

That is an extremely bad reason to have children.

>>13003657
did you see who's running the church? he's literally laundering the money of venezuelan dictators and argie political criminals
the church needs a purge from within, from the top down, problem is the top needs to be cut off too

>>13004628
Go to bed, Martin Luther.

>>13004628
Anyone from the New World needs to be banned from positions of power in the Church. USA is a fountain of heresies and Latin America is too intertwined with Communism.

>>13004605
Its one of many for me.

>>13004640
Most of the Second Vatican Council's chief theologians were from Europe.

>>13004662
They were probably influenced by America in some way.

>>13004668
>Probably
No, they weren't. I am not defending America here for it has its fair share of issues, but Europe produced some very poor theologians recently as well. The issue can't be subject to simply one group of people

>>13004636
fuck off i have to nail some shit on the church's door

>>13004640
marxism won in latin america, cardinal sarah was the best man to sit on the chair of st peter

>>13004540
Any more thoughts on Christianity from a Guenonian point of view?

>>13004540
the USA has 125 married priests. It is possible if they are converted after the marriage and already were priests in other denominations or eastern catholics. Married catholic priests are more in favor of the celibacy than non married priests.

I started that book some time ago. Rama is a peculiar figure. He was also friends with the exorcist Malachi Martin, who's also controversial (no one knows if he had his vows lifted etc). One thing that puzzles me is the fact Rama says he converted to catholicism because it would be impossible to practice hinduism outside of india. So how sincere was his faith? Judging by the book he was very traditionalist but stil...

>>13005001
Jean Hani. I'm reading Orthodoxy and the religion of the future right now, by the way.

>>13005155

Jean Borella
Jean Hani
Seraphim Rose

The the core (Guenon, Schuon, Coomaraswamy) all have writings on Christianity as well.

Have you read much from Angelico Press?

>>13004590
The Dominicans are the sharpest thinkers in the Church, and I find them, in general to be extremely trustworthy.

The trouble with Vatican 2 is that, as much as we may not like it, it IS a valid ecumenical council. To deny that it's valid is to deny that the Church has the right to call councils at all, which would undo the Church's rightful authority.

Vatican 2 doesn't need to be rejected, it needs to be reinterpreted. Specifically, we need to distinguish between the actual texts of the Second Vatican Council and the "spirit of Vatican 2," which is pure 60s and 70s awfulness. It's the "spirit" that is responsible for the clown Masses and the stupid guitar music, not the actual Vatican 2 texts. Basically, what we need is for all the fucking Boomers to die off in the Church, and then we'll actually read what the documents of the Council said and integrate them into the broader Magisterium of the Church. This is what Benedict XVI was getting at when he talked about the "reform of the reform." It was an acknowledgment that the actual implication of Vatican 2 had become vastly different than what the original framers of the Council had in mind.

>>13005191
*actual implementation of Vatican 2,

>>13005183
I haven't. Do you recommend me one?

There's also Wolfgang Smith who is catholic --- although the only book i've read by him was more of a critique of the scientific estalibshment (science and myth).

Guenon ignores christ and christianity to an extent it's very noticeable (why would he do it?). On christianity there's basically "insights into christian esoterism" and "the esoterism of dante", both of which I disagree with. His theory of 'exoterization' based on the sacraments is wrong and the esoterism he sees in dante is very dubious.

I know nothing of Schuon.

>>13005191
the church needs to restore the holy office and restablish the vow against modernity Pius X established.

>>13005237
All in due time. Like I said, the biggest obstacle to fixing the Church is all the "spirit of Vatican 2" type Boomers and old men who are currently in charge. But one by one, they'll die. Cardinal Danneels in Belgium died recently, and he was one of the rotten ones. They'll all die in the next ten or twenty years. That won't solve ALL our problems, but it will certainly help.

>>13003756
God willing.

>>13005257
indeed. The new generation has proven to be more traditional. The traditional mass is increasing in numbers.

>>13003723
ummm you guys aren't serious about this i hope.
this would ruin the church if one of you idiots got in. this isnt a game. you cant just larp you way to being a priest and if you do, this is probably like the most despicable thing you can do.

>>13005237
> I haven't. Do you recommend me one?
I havent either. They just seem to operate like a Catholic "Sophia Perennis." Have a lot of overlap, publishing Borella and Hani.

> Wolfgang Smith
I've seen his books, seems like he attacks scientism a lot. I want to read him.

Supposedly, Evola considered himself pagan catholic? His reputation is pretty much shot. He did write a book on the Grail Myths, which I'd like to read.

Grail seems like a good avenue to Christian esotericism.

>>13005257
"Tolerance...doesnt live here anymore."

People are talking about esotericism, but how many of you guys have dug into Christian mysticism at all? I got The Cloud Of Unknowing for Christmas, and I'm getting ready to start reading it soon.

>>13005325
What's your dileneation of esotericism vs. mysticism?

>>13005325
you are completely right. we return to the true christian mysticism instead of guenonian thought. but i study the traditionalists on a historical basis only. that because they have influenced many seminarians and there are very obscure things that is said about them i'm collecting. if they wanted the destruction of the church then it's something to keep an eye on.

>>13003625
>Sedevacantism

>>13005001
Seraphim Rose is not Guenonian despite being on the Guenon chart. Sure, he is against new age religion and has good metaphysics, but his book, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future reads little different from some boomer protestant book with regards to eastern religions. He has some good points, but his reduction of all non Christian religions to nothing more than demonic cults is certainly not a Guenonian idea. I really don't see the appeal from him and Jean Borella/ Wolfgang Smith is much better for a scholarly Guenonian Christian. Seraphim Rose was influenced by Guenon which ultimately led him to lose interest in eastern charlatanism and focus on orthodox belief, but it would be completely wrong to consider him a member of the traditionalist school.

>>13005155
I have no idea where you are getting that statistic from. There are thousands of married priests if you count all the eastern Catholics, episcopal converts, etc. 125 is completely false and I almost know enough personally to prove that wrong. Regardless, the number does not matter and if anything, shows the importance of improving the number thereof. To be traditionalist is not synonymous with supporting clerical celibacy among diocesan priests, a doctrine that has never been universal.

>>13005237
In the Symbolism of the Cross, Guenon specifically says that he believes in the historical fact of the resurrection. Additionally, he says that Catholicism is perfectly good for the salvation of man (salvation though, not Deliverance from all metaphysically conditioned states). He further says that Eastern Catholicism is still in possession of the primordial tradition. He is frequent in his use of Biblical allusions to show points and he married in the Catholic Church even after he had begun experimenting in Gnosticism and western Occultism. It is clear that Guenon has respect for the faith at least to some extent and I don't buy into the notion that Guenon was some sort of anti-Christian thinker if interpreted in the right context.

>>13005191
I loathe the notion that there is somehow a difference between the council and the spirit thereof. The council undermined basic principles of Catholicism that led to the corruption of the mass, consequently causing the spirit of it arise in the first place. As soon as you begin to undermine the tradition doctrines of the Church and give them an inch, modernity will take a mile.

>>13005303
Evola's books on the grail myth are from a specifically non-Christian, Pagan perspective. He though they were not Christian and were rather expressions of ancient pagan metaphysics.

>>13005325
Mysticism is separate from esoterism. Both are good, but are ultimately concerned with different matters.

>>13005353
Guenon has not influenced many seminarians at all. He is fringe in the west and virtually unheard of in the mainstream Catholic Church. I say that as a fan of his.

Someone here read Meditations on the Tarot?
Also thanks for the thread, pleasant surprise.

>>13005422
Also, I have a SSPX parish somewhat near, I'm interested though I fear they might be way too dogmatic and think about my interest on christian hermeticism as heresy.

I think I'll just test the waters by assisting their french courses.

>>13005381
>I have no idea where you are getting that statistic from.
got it from https://cal-catholic.com/as-many-as-120-catholic-priests-in-the-u-s-are-married/

father paul sullins is also a sociologist and a married catholic priest. he has all the info on catholic priests one can find. he said he interviewed pratically all of the married priests (which is a number lower than that of 120)

>Guenon has not influenced many seminarians at all. He is fringe in the west and virtually unheard of in the mainstream Catholic Church. I say that as a fan of his.
I've talked to a semirian who affirmed guenon was read by part of the seminarians (i don't remember if it was 1/3 or 2/5). Rama taught history in a SSPX seminary while he was still member of Schuon's tariqa and so on. Seminarians have more contact with guenon than one can think.

It’s odd that the deeper I get in Catholicism, the more depressed I become due to the severity of it all.

>>13005381
this is father paul sullins' book

>>13005422
Yes, I've read it and frankly thought it was quite good; it is quite possibly the most complete and orthodox synthesis of Catholicism and Esoterism ever written. Very interesting synthesis of Christian Mystics, Hermeticism, Kabbalah, and even has a few references to Guenon interspersed throughout. While I think it is good, the issue is, the level of spirituality it presents is rather dangerous to partake in for the average person and most people, including myself and many who read the book, are not ready for it. In theory though, I think the book is very interesting and actually quite orthodox (hence why Hans Urs von Balthasar a man who was going to be a Cardinal wrote an afterword for it). Additionally, the abbot of Saint Joseph's Abbey, a Carthusian Monestary in America, was quite familiar with the book if I remember correctly. I think there is much spiritual profundity among certain intellectuals (especially Monastics) of the Church that simply isn't heard of enough. I really can't say enough though, one should be at an extreme level of person devotion to Christ before beginning to implement any of the teachings of this book.
Before anyone comes at me, saying such subjects are certainly non-Christian, this book doesn't attempt to provide dogma. It is merely a lens through which to view spirituality and the Catholic faith. It is suprisingly orthodox if you actually read it and understand that according to the Guenonian definition, esoterism and exoterism are concerned with different planes of the spiritual experience, and thus, there can be no overlap.

>>13005464
Severity regarding what? Speak me not in riddles for I am not quick of mind.

>>13005459
That is quite amazing and I've never heard that information about Guenon before. It makes me want to learn more about the SSPX seminary process frankly.

>>13005513
there is a lot of controversy on it though. Such as the reason why Rama was expelled from SSPX by Lefebvre. Lefebvre was well aware Rama was son of Ananda and did not allow him to teach theology.

Lefebvre probably did not know Rama was part of Schuon's tariqa back then. Members of SSPX tend to be against traditionalists although they give Guénon some merits.

>>13005500
Mortal sin, specifically. Granted that I’m scrupulous, but mortal sin is something that I feel is always near. This makes it seem like I’m walking on eggshells. Serious question: how are you all not driven almost insane by the fact that hell is one thought away? I’ve wept more than once over the seemingly endless ways one can misstep so easily, and in turn damn your own self; it wasn’t necessarily because of my own actions that I fretted over, but more of an absolute dread of the future. I’ve examined myself over the years, and I find peace a nearly impossible commodity.

>>13003625
>Is it the way?
Jesus is the way, retard.

>Or is progress the only answer?
Most tradcaths and sedes are larping morons who don't actually go to church because it isn't celebrated in latin. The rest are genuinely upset priests who nevertheless continue to serve their communities.

The whole movement is a reaction against vatican 2 and the scandals and the diminishing number of people attending church. The ONLY way it is going to get better is by building up the church and evangelism. Schismatics would tear it down.

>>13005587
As cliché as it sounds the hardest trial is against oneself, anon. I think there are some sins you can escape of, at least under the most common conditions, but if it's a matter of ending up dead, with enough repetance everything can be forgiven.
Of course this isn't a get out of jail (hell) card, and it will longer in your memory always, but you can do better and don't cede to the desperation. The Lord is always there for you and will be there until your time runs off.

I think that if you feel so heavy about it, your repetance seems sincere, maybe wiser words can be found within your local church, but my advice is try to keep a clear conscience, act with good will (though that doesn't mean you should let yourself be played with), and pray when you feel in doubt, pain, or fear.

Dunno if my answer was good enough but I tried to convey some peace.

>>13005587
I'm not the person to whom you replied, but frankly, I feel a bit the same way sometimes as well. I am not good to be giving advice, for I am unironically a degenerate, but when I have weeks where I am a bit more virtuous, I do find myself obsessing over the past. I do find certain types of prayer to be more calming than others, and sometimes always doing personal prayer dealing with moral matters can be too much for the psyche; perhaps try a different form of devotion that is more meditative. The invocation of the name of God tends to calm me down. But I must admit, I am not good at dedicating myself to celibacy and that tends to bring my ruin quite quickly; once I fall deep into sin, I just cope with it through distractions, so that's I suppose how I deal with it. I do go a bit crazy once I return though, as I always inevitably do. I think certain people are just naturally oriented to scruples but certainly not all Catholics are that way.

This presentation on St. Therese particularly helped me with regards to scruples for she too suffered from them so badly she was bed ridden and went into fevers. I think it might help you too. Sorry for the blogpost above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MMv56UNZFw

>>13005587
Not that anon but it seems to me like you need and deeply earn for special graces. Do you attend regular mass? Do you go to Confession once every two weeks? Do you familiarize yourself with the lives of the Saints? Do you pray the full rosary everyday? Do you spend one hour with Our Lord in the Eucharistic Adoration at least once a week? Do you wear the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel? Do you wear the Miraculous Medal? Have you consecrated yourself to the Blessed Virgin Mary?

>>13005649
>Dunno if my answer was good enough but I tried to convey some peace.

It’s good advice for most people. Unfortunately I’m not like most, and I would doubt even a saint’s words would ease my conscience. I have no idea how Mother Theresa dealt with this similar thing for fifty years.

>>13005683
I go to mass and confession regularly, and I pray every day. I can only assure you that the lion’s share of the other stuff that you recommended would only deepen an already ruinous introspective nature that tends toward hopelessness. The only thing I can say to all of you experiencing it is this: you either weather the storm, or you don’t. I can give no better advice. I wish that I could.

>>13005695
Okay man, I hope that something (that isn't another mortal sin) could quench your thirst for peace of mind.

>>13005587
I feel the same way, sort of, life just feels like a burden that I wish I'd have never had to shoulder because it's so easy to commit a mortal sin and you can die randomly at any time.

>>13005464
learn the jesus prayer and pray it

>>13005747
Are you the scrupulous anon? Those things will help because you're not fighting sin on your own. You need Mary's help because he's the new Ark of the Covenant, the OT Jews would win every battle along as they brought the Ark with them. You're just a simple human being and you can't hope to beat sin by yourself and without Her help. I'm sorry you feel this but I've never had a problem with being scrupulous, I'm just confident in resting my struggles with Jesus and Mary, I fall into sin, someday i'm not as sanity as am I in others, and I recognize that not even the best people in the OT and NT are free of from sin until death, but I remember that Jesus tells us in the Scripture to not fear.

Mark 4:39-40
>39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

>40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Mark 6:50
>50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

Hope this helps in anyway. You need prayers directed at you, anon.

>>13005817
To add to this good post, I've always found these verses comfy
>And why take ye thought for raiment?
Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow;
they toil not, neither do they spin:

>Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Sometimes one needs the active path and sometimes one needs like the path of renunciation. If you've reached a point in personal virtue where you are getting diminishing returns in the active path by which virtues are affirmed, sometimes taking a step back may help. We must realize that we are not alone and that God is not some evil demon who only wishes to judge us. Keep your chin up anon!

>>13005817
>You need prayers directed at you, anon.

And many like me. Some of you might not be familiar with the term “dark night of the soul,” but it’s basically desolation without consolation. God’s presence seems removed entirely so as to test you. I have no grand delusions that I’m on another level of spiritual existence to warrant experiencing this or something like it. I’ve been gone from the church for ten years and just recently getting back into it since about October. This experience isn’t new to me, though. because I was like this from the start. You guys have no idea how blessed you are to not experience scrupulosity in all its poisonous forms.

>>13005381
Do you know of any good Christian grail interpretations? Especially by traditionalists?

>>13005498
>While I think it is good, the issue is, the level of spirituality it presents is rather dangerous to partake in for the average person and most people, including myself and many who read the book, are not ready for it.

What do you find dangerous about it specifically?

Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us;
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

>>13006099
The Christian Grail interpretations are the standard ones; Evola was deviant from the standard interpretation of the myth as far as I know. I I don't particularly know any books particularly off the top of my head as it isn't my specialty. If you read Parzival and have read a fair amount about traditional symbolism/metaphysics, you should be able to interpret it decently well on your own.

With regards to what makes it dangerous, the book is about ceremonial magic; it is not so much literally dangerous as it is likely to be misinterpreted and misapplied. It is quite different that most people imagine it to be, but nonetheless it is not for the weak of spirit. In discussing such things it quickly begins to descend into topics that are rather murky like the psyche and the ego and whatnot, but to say it simply, there is great danger first of all in learning such spirituality without a proper teacher and initiation. This is a Guenonian approach to spiritual development. Besides that though, there is the danger in the jump from one stage of being to the next too quickly. The book itself sort of talks about it in the arcanum of the tarot entitled The Chariot where the individual is underneath a covering, signifying the importance in maintaining a subject object distinction in the process of spiritual development. It additionally warns the individual, giving examples of how certain men went too quickly into esotericism without any exoteric support and literally went crazy, raving with schizophrenic delusions. That is not to say that is going to happen from you reading the book, that would be absurd; however, taking a huge spiritual jump from a rather humble level to such a hugely advanced one is likely to be of some disturbance to the soul. There is really nothing special about magic anyways. Evola and Guenon both are in agreement that magic is merely a novelty of the lower castes and is not of essential importance in the spiritual process; this is an opinion shared by the author frankly for he says to know magic is to be a sage, but to practice it is to be a charlatan.


I would ultimately just recommend you read Guenon if you are interested in esoterism and then come back to this book. It is super long at around 700 pages and is really all over the place with regards to different esoteric philosophy. I'm no expert on it and this is just my opinion on it, but I do think that, while it doesn't have the exotic novelty to it, pious orthodox devotion on the exoteric plane is far better for your soul in the long run and if you desire higher things, will lead you to them when you are ready.

>>13006139

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

>>13006220
Yes, I've been studying guenon, Hinduism, neoplatonism, and Catholicism.

Was into the occult for so long, but it brought only darkness.

I am seeking higher things. I do want to do good works. Pray for me brother.

>>13006327
not him but I'll be praying for you, anon. And please consider dropping hinduism.

http://orthochristian.com/80417.html
http://orthochristian.com/69124.html

>>13006247
For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

>>13006362
Thank you

Is anyone else in this thread from the US, and finding that the more devout a Catholic they become the more they despise America? I keep realizing, more and more, that the United States' system of government, and its core ideals, are completely at odds with the teachings of the Church. I've gradually come to realize that US Catholics need to make a choice: are you going to be a good American, or are you going to be a good Catholic? Because I don't think you can be both.

>>13006413
That's because the US was founded on 'Enlightenment' ideals. The founding fathers were the liberals of their days.

>>13006444
Not him but, freemasons then?

>>13003756
lmao

>>13006465
Freemasonry isn't the ONLY problem with the United States, but it's a big fucking problem.

Remember, Harry Truman was a Freemason, and he dropped the second--completely unnecessary--atomic bomb on Nagasaki, the most Catholic city in Japan. It's often referred to as "The Rome of the East."

>>13006444
Nah, a lot of that liberal Enlightenment stuff was dropped after the First Great Awakening (depending on how you count) kicked in. America's culture is more turbo-Protestantism than "muh Enlightenment Masonry", this is a common error by Catholic critics imo. This is why so many Enlightenment Liberal types like Pinker are so baffled at why American leftists are betraying Enlightenment principles - those aren't the principles they're operating on, they're operating on turbo-Protestantism that denounced God as some kind of bigot in the 60s instead.

>>13006465
Many of them were.
Anyone who is a free mason is a heretic and enemy of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church.

>>13006536
as a non american who views the USA from the outside i agree. there are countries that are better examples of masonry. USA is pretty much a protestant country

>>13003723
>>13003756
>/lit/ in charge of the Church

>>13006543
It's not JUST protestant it's derived from English Protestantism particularly of the low-church variety. While Lutheranism errs in various respects you can still sort of get a functioning society out of it, in the US without a central Church to regulate things you are going to get all kinds of bizarre holiness spirals. Many of the states had state churches but someone has to take power eventually and that ended up being Massachusetts more or less.

>>13006558
what the fuck, dude. sounds like you are against separation of church and state.
church has no business in state business, asswipe

>>13006563
Separation of Church and State isn't real. When you try this the State will just create a new religion as has been borne out by the US, the State religion is now Progressivism which is descended from left-wing Protestantism.

When the US had SJW movements in the past, and there were many of them, you have to realize that these were typically also left-wing Protestant evangelical revival movements.

>>13005281
>people on 4chan have aspirations and closely held beliefs
"STOP LARPING!"

>>13006563
Not him, but I am absolutely against the separation of Church and State. I've become increasingly fond of the idea of Integralism, in which the Church has an important role to play in the functioning of the State. Obviously, some day, the First Amendment is going to have to be gotten rid of, and instead the United States government is going to need to sign a concordat with the Church, one which lays out the Church's particular responsibilities and privileges within the day-to-day business of the United States.

>>13006543
Also now that I think about it, how many countries were both Protestant and had a strong Communist Party presence and/or became part of the USSR? It's always seemed to me that Communism has caught on in countries where Catholicism or Orthodoxy reigns supreme. I guess East Germany and Latvia? Scandinavian socialism really isn't orthodox Marxism-Leninism, neither is Anglo Progressivism.

>>13006413
Are you familiar with the "Americanism" heresy? and the Pope Leo Xlll's encyclical about it? America has a lot of problems, sure, but there's good Catholicity in it as well, mainly thanks to the Spanish and French empires and some English speaking colonial Catholics as well. The dominant culture is still Protestant, the idea of voitng for a Catholic president seems almost unthinkable to most Americans even after JFK. If you believe in E. Michael Jones, America and the CIA sabotaged Vatican ll making it the sideshow it became and many high level Americans like Obama are anti-Catholic, he once forced a Nun monastery or something like that to pay for some girls abortion. America is like ground zero for many heresies and evil's but Christians everywhere, Catholic, Orthodox, and even some Protestants need to stand firm and pray together for the conversion of the people, government, and culture.

>>13006605
Based

>>13003625
The best books are by Hutton Gibson. Also Patrick Henry Omlor. Mr. Gibson had a website with many excellent books and resources for free, but ti's temporarily down.

As to your question, YES it's the answer - the only way. It's also the biggest taboo in the world. They don't want you to realize that we are sede vacante and they don't want you to do anything about it. If you do, and if we restore the papacy and the Church, the whole world will change overnight. Radically.

Other resources:

This is a good video for normies just to show them the big picture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWl7WN1ItHQ

mostholyfamilymonastery.com has a lot of good articles and videos

traditio.com commentaries often have good newsworthy info

calefactory.org is a good site with basic info

the basics of real catholicism:
www.baltimore-catechism.com

many good articles, old catholic resources, papal bulls of note:
traditionalcatholic.net

God bless you always.

>>13003657
>How about not splitting the church again because we apready know sectarianism has devastating effects?
He's talking about sedevacantism, not sectarianism.

Basically this is the realization that clown world is the result of the Catholic church not having a genuine pope since 1958. The recent papal claimants, all ineligible, are usurpers. In other words what we're in right now is deeper filth than the Great Western Schism. When you realize the depth of the apostasy, clown world makes perfect sense. There is no greater joy than being a real, trad cath and understanding our popeless age.

>>13006546
Based Bishop Barron poster.

>>13005378
Don't be a fag. We're not playing games and posting dumb pics. This is real.

>>13006624
>If you believe in E. Michael Jones, America and the CIA sabotaged Vatican ll making it the sideshow it became
May or may not be true, at any rate this is not so different from how various countries used to de facto control the Papacy, America just made it bad like everything it touches. At any rate E. Michael Jones always writes from an anti-British, anti-American, Irish-American (larping as German?) perspective so who knows. It's not as if Europe didn't have left-wing movements.

>>13006413
i feel ya. Every week it feels like mass gets a little more protestanty in addition to the core freemasonry and rampant materialism. I stayed in a small town in Italy for a month and being surrounded, almost at all times, by beautiful icons, paintings, church bells ringing,and festivals made me miss a tradition I never even knew I had before.
I mean I don't know how strong the faith is in Italy overall, but being part of the culture and and tradition really makes me fell like a foreigner in my own country now.

>>13005437
They're not dogmatic. Zoomer kids who don't know anything about genuine Catholicism are fooled by their incense and costumes. The SSPX are not and never were Catholic. They're liberal wofves.
Read Hutton Gibson's books. I can't recommend them enough. He calls them $$PX, and for good reason: they're fakers, not real priests, whose sole intent is to take the money and time of unsuspecting Catholics who would otherwise be fighting the battle.
Their founder, Marcel Lefebvre, was not properly ordained. His priestly ordination AND episcopal consecration both came from the hands of Achilles Lienart, a devil worshipper. Lefebvre admits on tape that he saw Lienart dressed in his occult paraphernalia. Lienart, on his deathbed, laughed that the Catholic church was dead.
Sorry Lienart, now in Hell, I hope you can hear me. I exist, as do many others. We're Catholic. The Church is not dead - to the contrary. You lose.

>>13005464
>It’s odd that the deeper I get in Catholicism, the more depressed I become due to the severity of it all.
Friend, you should be overjoyed. Because it is indeed bad, but the number of trads is on the rise. Catholicism always grew best in times of persecution. We are clearly winning. I believe we'll have a pope in my lifetime. Maybe sooner than many people think.

>>13006678
>Lefebvre admits on tape that he saw Lienart dressed in his occult paraphernalia. Lienart, on his deathbed, laughed that the Catholic church was dead.
W T F

>>13006653
Sedevacantism is a game and a heresy. I'd rather sede's turn Orthodox than pretend they're still Catholic. You're not the first people to think the end is near and all that. People have been thinking that since NT times, the time there was 3 popes, the Black Plague, the Borgia Popes, 30 years war, French Revolution, the World Wars, etc. If the historical record says anything, is that thinking the current year time is near the apocalypse is arrogant and foolish.

>>13005464
The truth hurts.

>>13005587
God is Great. The limits of His mercy have not been set.

>>13005543
Rama had a great correspondence with Mother Theresa. It exposed her as a total apostate - when it became obvious, during the course of their correspondence, she asked that it not be published.
Lefebvre had a habit of keeping good men by his side and then expelling or trying to ruin their influence. He was indeed a total fraud and his fruits from the modernist and contradictory SSPX to the illogical and invalid SSPV are evil.

>>13005613
>Most tradcaths and sedes are larping morons who don't actually go to church because it isn't celebrated in latin.
No.
Most good Catholics don't go to church because there isn't one. There aren't many Roman Catholic priests out there at all. And of the ones who are, not many celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass (sorry, the '1962 rite' doesn't count). And who are not 'una cum' a notorious heretic.
The Church expects you to worship God on Sundays and holydays, in a church at Mass ... if such a thing is available. If it isn't, you have no obligation to commit mortal sin by attending a simulation of Catholic worship by a non-priest with no jurisdiction let alone priestly powers.

>>13006696
i dont know who was honest anymore. Because on one hand there's people accusing Rama of trying mine the traditionalist movements --- being the treason of SSPX members the reason he got expelled --- and now this. So who was in the wrong? Rama or Lefebvre? Note that when Rama was ordained Malachi Martin was present, and Malachi spoke greatly of Lefebvre.

I never heard of this, but I knew Rama had made a cirurgy on Mother Theresa.

>>13006714
>sorry, the '1962 rite' doesn't count
citation needed

you can disagree with the hokey boomer traditions around novus ordo, but there is no denying it is a valid rite without denying the church's authority

tldr u dum

>>13006327
More prayers for you, anon. This is a special unique time in Church history and we've been born into it for a reason.
I just posted a list of genuine Catholic sites and books and videos - I hope it is of use to you.
Consider praying all 15 decades of the Rosary, even once. It's an amazing, powerful tool for discernment.
http://www.themostholyrosary.com/

>>13006717
>If Sedevacantism is true, you go to hell for attending an invalid simulacrum of a Mass
>If Sedevacantism is not true, Sedes go to hell for schism
Awkward...

>>13006733
the kingdom of heaven is within

>>13006413
I'm with you. I feel like America is on the verge of collapse. It was always too Protestant, but we did have our moments: the state of Maryland was named after our Blessed Mother. We have wonderful shrines and many stand to this day despite the apostasy and the luciferian "bishops" in charge.
But yes, I feel like today's America is a drag and there's no hope for it. Catholic monarchy is the only governance I can stand.

>>13006733
God sees beyond these things. It's the people in unawares of this predicament who should fear.

>>13006696
cont.
some of the bishops consacrated by Lefebvre said the reason Rama was expelled was the fact he derailed 9 men from the SSPX, which turned them into "traitors" against their superiors. But there's another man who was an associate of Schuon who met Rama and said Rama's intent was ultimate islamization of europe, which was discovered and got him expelled.

In the words of this former disciple of Schuon who met Rama, he said: Rama told me (in his house, 1986) "Lefebre is fool, but he works for us." could it be both were actually frauds?

>>13006754
Global Papal State run by the Holy See is the only viable form of governance for the multitude of people.

>>13006730
Thank you, for all the resources. Your support gives me more hope.

>>13006759
Honestly having Hell in the back of your mind with every thought and action is bad enough but now apparently you need to be able to discern whether or not the pope is not or whether you were baptized/confirmed validly and so on. I'm Catholic but I have to admit sometimes I wish I had never been born instead.

>>13006768
All is grace.

>>13006689
Exactly. Lefebvre is a fraud. Read Fr. Noel Barbara's book about the evil he saw in Econe. And most importantly of all, Hugo Maria Kellner's expose of masonic Lefebvre and his plan to create an invalid trad clergy. That was the joke: SSPX, SSPV, whatever, not only do they have no jurisdiction but they have no valid orders, so even if they stopped the filthy Vatican II era 1962 rite and did the real TLM, it wouldn't be valid.

How close does this sentiment coincide with traditional catholic views?

Are there real catholic resources in this spirit?

It may seem stupid, but it really does inspire me to be better; the small door.

>>13006800
Heres the clip:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=591n8GKvyaY

>>13006780
so if Lefebvre was a fraud then Malachi Martin also was? and what about Rama? Please provide me with all sources or directions you can. I've been trying to gather infos on this confusing story.

Malachi on Lefebvre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVhYrWdvJI

pic is Rama's ordination and that's Malachi's back

can you address
>>13006717
>>13006760

>>13006691
>Sedevacantism is a game and a heresy.

Don't be a pansy.
I've known the Church is sede vacante since before there was a 4chan, and I've been fighting like a man for the real church.
You, on the other hand, are on an anonymous internet forum spouting off untrue and ridiculous statements. Does it feel better to do so?
Let me correct you. If you realize the pastor at your local parish was never ordained, and therefore not a priest, what do you do? You make that known, and you do NOT attend his Mass, because it's not valid and not Catholic.
That's not a heresy.
How could you even say that recognizing that a prelate is not ordained is 'heresy'? How could you think that a Catholic who points out that a church authority is a usurper who is INELIGIBLE to hold that position is a 'heretic'?
I never said the end is near, btw. Most educated Catholics who recognize that we are sede vacante do believe the Church has a long future, although all educated Catholics know that the end of the world will come, one day, a day we do not know - tomorrow, or 50,000 years hence, who knows. Recognizing that a See is held by a usurper and an imposter has nothing to do with the 'end times.'
The Orthodox are in schism, I would never join them, but I recognize that the Catholic Church could use their help, and I do wish that more of them would convert.

I'd rather sede's turn Orthodox than pretend they're still Catholic. You're not the first people to think the end is near and all that. People have been thinking that since NT times, the time there was 3 popes, the Black Plague, the Borgia Popes, 30 years war, French Revolution, the World Wars, etc. If the historical record says anything, is that thinking the current year time is near the apocalypse is arrogant and foolish.

Can you guys please stop larping and grow up..

>>13006717
>i dont know who was honest anymore. Because on one hand there's people accusing Rama of trying mine the traditionalist movements --- being the treason of SSPX members the reason he got expelled --- and now this. So who was in the wrong? Rama or Lefebvre? Note that when Rama was ordained Malachi Martin was present, and Malachi spoke greatly of Lefebvre.
>I never heard of this, but I knew Rama had made a cirurgy on Mother Theresa.
He did, and if you want to be entertained you should read it It's great. Mother Theresa was an amazing heretic.
I have questions about Rama's ordination, but he did write some good material. Pray for him if you can. I do that. Lefebvre was bad news all around. His 'bishops' are equally bad, sowing heresy and wasting the time of good-meaning Catholics.

>>13006809
Wait until we bring the racks back, heretic.

>>13006768
>I'm Catholic but I have to admit sometimes I wish I had never been born instead.
It sounds like a cliche and many "spiritual not religious' people say something like this, but you, me, and everyone ITT have a purpose in this life, we're not insignificant in the eyes of God, are sufferings and confusions are not meaningless.

>>13006811
I'm waiting for you to move out of your parents basement and get a job, virgin.

>>13006812
I guess so but that doesn't stop almost all people from going to Hell depending on who you believe.

>>13006729
>citation needed
>you can disagree with the hokey boomer traditions around novus ordo, but there is no denying it is a valid rite without denying the church's authority
>tldr u dum
Are you kidding me?
Do you want to learn, or do you want to wallow in ignorance like the pagans? Because the attacking tone of your post tells me you're not really interested. It's easy to make smart aleck comments on 4chan. A bit harder to actually discuss theology and learn things and exchange ideas.
But, if you're interested, sure I'll teach you about it. The 1962 rite came from the robbers, the criminals of the Vatican II sect. They destroyed the canon of the Mass. "Canon" is a Greek word meaning something that cannot be changed - oh, but they changed it.
If you read the Comentaries on traditio.com, you'll find a lot of great and smart answers. They talk about the 1962 rite a lot. Here's one page:
http://www.traditio.com/off.htm

>>13006808
this feels like bait and pasta

>I never said the end is near,
But that's what every sede's actually think, the prophecies used by sede's and "trad" cats are about apostate popes and all that, it's all boring and tiresome. So many people think Francis is the last Pope and Benedict is was last "true" pope.

>>13006811
>Doos vault!!

You are going to look back on this phase of your life and cringe so hard..

>>13006733
>>If Sedevacantism is true, you go to hell for attending an invalid simulacrum of a Mass
Only if you know that it's false and you willingly choose to commit idolatry.
Most people who go to these evil simulacrums are unwitting partakers in idolatry. They gain no graces from it, but God grants them graces for their desire.
>>If Sedevacantism is not true, Sedes go to hell for schism
Except, no papal pretender of the false Conciliar church has ever told any of us Catholics that we are in schism. It isn't formal at all by the Newchurch standards. The best they've done is with the SSPX simulacrum, which they've declared "irregular."
It's interesting, isn't it. And I guarantee you, they don't want us talking about it.

Sedevacantism is nothing but a heresy, really. They call themselves the "true" Catholics, but they've failed the most basic of all tests that Catholics must face: they believe that the Church, and the Pope, have fallen. They believe this even though Christ promised Peter that "the gates of the netherworld" would not prevail against the Church. They took Vatican 2 and believed that the Church had failed. They love the vestments and the trappings of the pre-Vatican 2 Church, but they've forgotten the absolute faith that was at the core of this.

Vatican 2 was not implemented well. So what? There has been bad theology in the Church before. Francis is not the best Pope. So what? We've had bad popes before. All that matters is this: do you believe that the Catholic Church is protected from ruin by Christ Himself, or don't you? If you don't, you're not Catholic at all, but something else. If you do, just go to Mass every Sunday and have faith. Everything will work out, in the end. It always does.

>>13006818
Vanities because you admire men more than God. I'm going to become a priest instead.
>>13006830
You're going to look back on your entire life when you're burning in hell.

>>13006760
They could be, but Lefebvre is the worst of the two. Rama indeed helped show "the nine" (as they were called) that what was happening in the Society was fraudulent. They left, but the only problem is, they weren't priests themselves. So they continue to pretend (and take money).

>>13006807
>Malachi Martin
Yeah, he was an agent and a faker. He was published by a mainstream press and was promoted very heavily. A certain type of person - neocon Catholics - loved his lurid details of homosexuality and devil worship. Martin himself embraced heresies and, well, read if yourself - a good article here on some of the fake trads. The stuff on Martin is especially good:

https://fitzinfo.wordpress.com/2018/12/09/right-wing-catholic-media-gatekeepers-for-masonic-anti-catholic-hate-industry/

>>13006854
To me, Lefebvre may have done some good things, but when push came to shove he refused to submit to the Pope. He did not submit to John Paul II and he consecrated those bishops anyway. What kind of faithful Catholic doesn't submit to the Pope? That was a test and he failed it.

I'm lucky to have an FSSP church very close to me. I'm glad to go there for Mass from time to time, because they preserve the Latin Mass but they're also in full communion with Rome.

>>13006811
based

>>13006818
Dude, I *am* the parents. Not a virgin since the 90s. I work for myself. And I have a huge basement.

>>13006853
You need to do some serious introspection. It's clear to everyone else that you are using religion to feel superior to others and justify your resentment towards others. Probably you were bullied. Dues vault and killing heretics has nothing to do with Jesus teachings, hence why no one takes you seriously. You clearly don't really believe in any of this. You are just using religion to inflate your ego.

>>13006878
Why are you lying on an anonymous image board?

>>13006879
You couldn't be more wrong.

>>13006828
>this feels like bait and pasta
If 100 words is too much for you then I don't think we can talk. I wrote those words right now for your benefit, btw. I'm not interested in baiting anyone. FYI, I want to make your life better.

>>I never said the end is near,
>But that's what every sede's actually think, the prophecies used by sede's and "trad" cats are about apostate popes and all that, it's all boring and tiresome.
I'm sorry that genuine Catholic saints are tiresome and boring to you. I think that says more about you and your spiritual depth and health than anyone else. The prophecies are not about "end times." I know them all. Anna Katharina Emmerich in multi volumes talks basically about what's happening right now. Impostor popes, massive apostasy, world evils ... but not 'end times'.
. So many people think Francis is the last Pope and Benedict is was last "true" pope.
Benedict, lol. I know some people think that. They're misinformed. Benny the Rat was a rebel modernist priest who doubts Transubstantiation. He's not and never was a bishop, so he was never bishop of Rome.
The 'last pope' thing comes from St. Malachy's prophesy. And you know it's interesting, perhaps the whore Bergoglio is indeed the last antipope of the Vatican II sect. It could be. I don't see this game going on much longer with them.
It's interesting, isn't it?

>>13006879
Only Christ exists. I have no ego. People who were bullied become police. I stood up for the bullied.

>>13006879
>>13006830
>>13006818
>>13006809
If you are all the same guy it's you who is the problem. This isn't /pol/. Anons have been going back and forth talking about books and personal experiences. It's one of the better threads up right now. You don't have to come in and antagonize people.

>>13006906
Sedevacantists are lying scum

Fuck off nigger

>>13006906
The Saints aren't boring but people giving too much credit into private relaxation and telling others that Francis, Benedict, everything since Vat ll is just "bad" and only "bad" is boring to me now.

>>13006926
Don't say that. We need only pray to Mary, the destroyer of heresies. Sede's hate the stewards of Her son.

>>13006864
how do you know all this? the things about: (especially the one about them being called the nine)

>Lefebvre admits on tape that he saw Lienart dressed in his occult paraphernalia. Lienart, on his deathbed, laughed that the Catholic church was dead.


>Mother Theresa. It exposed her as a total apostate

>Rama indeed helped show "the nine" (as they were called) that what was happening in the Society was fraudulent.

if malachi, rama and lefebvre are in the wrong, who's in the right side of the church?

>>13006851
>Sedevacantism is nothing but a heresy, really. They call themselves the "true" Catholics, but they've failed the most basic of all tests that Catholics must face: they believe that the Church, and the Pope, have fallen.
Hey there anon, why do you lie? Or do you really, honestly believe this? If so, I'm happy to tell you that you don't understand what sedevacantism means.
Sedevacantism isn't a heresy. The Church does not view it is a heresy at all. To the contrary: the Church professes that DOUBT is not permitted in any of its Sacraments. If there is reasonable doubt, it MUST be rejected.
Sedevacantists recognize that John 23 was not eligible to hold the papacy, and therefore could not have been a pope.
By the way, you do know that there were dozens of antipopes in the Church's history, right?
For instance, Anacletus II was a notorious Christ hater, and yet he illegitimately got into Rome posing as the pope. He wasn't a real pope, yet he sat there on the Throne of Peter. He began melting down gold crucifixes and giving his friends the gold. A rotten, evil antipope. The Church didn't fail. Nor did the papacy. The papacy was USURPED by a wicked man.
And that's what's happened now. No one says the Church has failed. No one says the gates of Hell has prevailed, except for people like you who don't understand the issue or the concepts. So I hope this helps.

> They believe this even though Christ promised Peter that "the gates of the netherworld" would not prevail against the Church. They took Vatican 2 and believed that the Church had failed.
No, that's not what sedevacantism means. Nope. Vatican II is a Robber Council. Read "The Robber Church," a good book. Just because a thief comes in and takes control of an institution doesn't mean that it has failed. You do realize this has happened dozens of times in the past. See, since Vatican II all Catholic education has gone to hell. So people are so ignorant of basic church law, basic church history, canon law, and they don't know the issues.
> They love the vestments and the trappings of the pre-Vatican 2 Church, but they've forgotten the absolute faith that was at the core of this.
Think about what you're saying. You mean to say that the Church, from 33AD when it was founded until the early 1960s was a thing of "trappings"? Do you see the evil?
>We've had bad popes before.
We've had bad popes, yes. AND we've had antipopes. Francis can come out tomorrow and say "ok we are DELETING all Vatican II errors and going back to traditional Catholic practice," but guess what? He's still invalid, he's still a wicked antipope.
> All that matters is this: do you believe that the Catholic Church is protected from ruin by Christ Himself, or don't you? If you don't, you're not Catholic at all, but something else.You're so confused. This is not true at all. Yes, the Catholic Church will exist until the end of time, but that's NO GUARANTEE that an antipope will usurp the See of Peter. Get it?

>>13006951
>if malachi, rama and lefebvre are in the wrong, who's in the right side of the church?

How about those who have never participated in this nonsense, but are nonetheless traditional and maintain the timeless teachings of the Church?

What about Cardinal Burke? He's never dabbled in any of this SSPX stuff, but he's every bit as traditional as any of them. He maintains his loyalty to Pope Francis, because Catholics should be loyal to the Pope.

>>13006870
>To me, Lefebvre may have done some good things, but when push came to shove he refused to submit to the Pope. He did not submit to John Paul II and he consecrated those bishops anyway. What kind of faithful Catholic doesn't submit to the Pope? That was a test and he failed it.
Lefebvre was part of the anti-Church . He was the false opposition. Sometimes he talked a good talk - almost admitting that John Paul II was an antipope. Almost. But he insisted that John Paul II was a pope, and then didn't submit to him.
John Paul II kissed the Koran and took the mark of Shiva on his forehead. Of all the antipopes in Church history, he was probably the most notorious.
>I'm lucky to have an FSSP church very close to me. I'm glad to go there for Mass from time to time, because they preserve the Latin Mass but they're also in full communion with Rome.
They're not valid priests. They're ordained in a new and invalid rite. The Mass they have is in Latin, yes, but it's not even the 1962 rite - it's a brand new modernist mess. I understand if this might seem confusing to you, this is a confusing time. You should read some of the material from mostholyfamilymonastery.com.

>muh sedecatvism
>muh pope francis
Reminder the Papacy is a position for life and one you cannot quit.
Pope Benedict is still the only valid pope. All of Francis's edicts are null and void. Francis will only ascend the position of Papacy AFTER his death.

>>13006980
I like to add Cardinal Sarah to that as well. I don't know much about the Church in Africa but apparently they're traditional and can't wrap their heads around the state of the West.

>>13006926
>Sedevacantists are lying scum
Nice argument. But you're wrong. And you're not elegant, either.
You should really try to learn something.
Nothing I said in that post was a 'lie'. I have the whole set of Anna Katharina Emmerich's works. The St. Malachy prophesy is found with an easy Google. These facts make you uncomfortable and irrational. Why?

>>13006994
I think I'm just going to go to the average, humble parishes around me, thanks. I think I'm going to go to all the normal, boring Catholic parishes in my diocese, and receive Confession from them, and go to Mass there, and receive the Eucharist in them. I don't always like the NO, but I don't think it's invalid, either. I think I'm going to do all this because I don't think the average, humble Catholic is wrong. The bishops and cardinals may be guilty of terrible sin, but I don't think the vast majority of the faithful would be undermined and destroyed the way this thread seems to have suggested.

>>13006998
I have had a premonition that Benedict will outlive Francis. I can't explain why I know this, but it's something I really, strongly know. I'm hesitant to call it a prophecy, but I guess that's what it is.

this is getting confusing
>catholic attacking both sedevacantism and traditionalism
>sedevancatist attacking traditionalism and the popes

>>13006950
>The Saints aren't boring but people giving too much credit into private relaxation and telling others that Francis, Benedict, everything since Vat ll is just "bad" and only "bad" is boring to me now.
People who ignore the Saints and try to brush them off are suspect to me. I can't understand why you want that.
Francis, Benedict, John Paul II, Paul VI, John 23 are worse than bad, they're the most evil men who ever lived. No way will I ever be quiet about that. This is war. Either fight or step aside.

>Sede's hate the stewards of Her son.
First of all, you are literally calling people seats, like chairs. Do you know that? Whether your position is sedevacantist or sedeplenist, the word is Catholic. And Catholics don't "hate the stewards of Her son." Francis, Benedict, and these other pigs are not the stewards of the Church, they are imposters. They will be tried, btw. When there is a real pope, and when the head of a nation recognizes the real pope, these pigs will be put to trial. I hope Francis is alive to pay the ultimate penalty. If dead, his body will be put to trial. You do know this happened before, right? An antipope's corpse was put to trial, the pope found him guilty, and the corpse was dumped into the sewer. One day the body of John Paul II will go there, too. Remember that.

>>13006994
Do any hold the actual chain of initiation to Christ?

>>13006490
holy fuck... Is this real? I never understood why he chose to drop the second bomb in Nagasaki

>>13006951
>how do you know all this? the things about: (especially the one about them being called the nine)
I've been fighting for the Church for a long time. My family knew Lefebvre. I've known some of these characters. "The nine" made a big splash in the early 80s when they broke off. But alas, it was all smoke and mirrors - they seemed to recognize everything, from Lefebvre's love of the modernist 1962 rite to his sloppiness with allowing Novus Ordo prelates to celebrate Mass. But the conveniently ignored the fact of their own dubious ordination.

>if malachi, rama and lefebvre are in the wrong, who's in the right side of the church?
Almighty God, Mary the Mother of God, all the Saints, all the true and genuine Popes, and the Church Militant, which includes you.
Some good resources from people on the right side of the church here in this post:
>>13006630

>>13006980
>>13007035
you are loyal to the papacy but you claim the last popes were imposters while being a critic of sedevacantism at the same time. now that's something ive never seen before

>>13007035
>People who ignore the Saints and try to brush them off are suspect to me.
Never said that, genius. No Catholic is bound to believe in every private revelation, not even Pope Leo Xlll's dream about Jesus letting the Devil have a 100 years to attempt to destroy His Church.

>>13007035
>First of all, you are literally calling people seats,
Stewards are a title, not a name. "King" ins't a name. Stewardship is biblical, look up Steve Ray.

Notice too, how as soon you came ITT you trashed the peace and tranquility I knew as soon as I saw "Sedevacantism" in the OP I know some internet warrior is going to trash it all up.

>>13007056
thanks. you should start a blog or something if you havent already. this whole mess needs to be clarified

>>13006980
>What about Cardinal Burke? He's never dabbled in any of this SSPX stuff, but he's every bit as traditional as any of them. He maintains his loyalty to Pope Francis, because Catholics should be loyal to the Pope.
Bully Burke, the hero of the neocon Catholics, is a manifest heretic. Just because he doesn't put on a clown wig doesn't mean he's a traditionalist. He's a total apostate and is not a Catholic in the least. He was ordained a presbyter in 1975 by the wicked Paul VI, in the new Montinian rite - invalid, totally null and void. He was never a priest. His 'consecration' in 1995 was also in the new Vatican II rite. And, as you point out, he maintains his fealty to his fellow molester in chief, Francis the destroyer.
Burke doesn't even wear traditional vestments. He dresses in the radical look of the novus ordo, he's been in trouble for embezzlement, he loves transsexual nuns - don't be fooled by people who try to push Burke as a "traditional "option". They're either totally fooled by the enemy of Christ, or they are the enemy themselves.
God bless you and all who read this, including all good hearted people and even you enemies of Christ who are on here reading, too - I sincerely pray for you all.

Hello recent Catholic convert here.
My experience of rcia and everything has actually been really bad. I do not regret the experiences but... It made me very awake to things.
The classes I where apart of where extremely poor and consisted of poor protestant tier discourse with no exclamation on the Catechism, no presence of the rulling Authority of the one True Faith.

I WAS MAD.

>>13006998
>>muh sedecatvism
> >muh pope francis
> Reminder the Papacy is a position for life and one you cannot quit.
Please stop. This is wrong, friend. St Peter Celestine reigned gloriously as Pope Celestine V for five months until he resigned.
Benedict, on the other hand, was never a bishop. So was it possible that he was ever a pope? Nope!

>>13007017
>but I don't think the vast majority of the faithful would be undermined and destroyed the way this thread seems to have suggested.
You need to read a good catechism then and really think about it. Because it's a basic tenet of the faith that there will be a great Apostasy, one bigger than the day of Athanasius. In fact, read about Athanasius. In his day, most bishops were heretics - they accepted the Arian heresy. Most churches EVERYWHERE were heretical, they accepted the Arian heresy. Athanasius and his flock kept the faith, but they couldn't even go to Mass on Sundays. Imagine if you were born in that age. Would you accept the Arian heresy, ad say, "I can't imagine that most people in most boring Arian churches are doing anything wrong. I think I'll go to Confession there and go to Mass there." You wouldn't be a Saint if you did that, and we were all born to be saints. Of course, as Marshall McLuhan pointed out, the Saints are insufferable. So they are. But we must keep the Faith. I write this with good will towards you and hope you receive it with such. God bless you.

>>13007038
I don't know what that means. Do you mean apostolic succession? Yes there are valid bishops out there and valid priests. They're not common, but they do exist. There are a lot underground as well in various countries.

>>13007091
What are the difference between a traditional vestment and a NO vestment?

Do you have resources on the vestments and meanings and how the were subverted?

>>13007049
Nagasaki was the greatest Catholic city in Japan.
Yes, this is real.

>>13007153
The Cathedral there and all those inside lived I believe.

>>13007068
>you are loyal to the papacy but you claim the last popes were imposters while being a critic of sedevacantism at the same time. now that's something ive never seen before
I'm not a critic of sedevacantism. Lefebvre was a sedeplenist.

>>13007146
I just assumed that jesus initiated his apostles, the Paul being the first Pope initiated his successors and so forth.

If the current church has lost its legitimacy, I was wondering where I could find a legitimate place to learn and worship.

>>13007085
>Never said that, genius.
You called me a seat. Remember that.

Pope Leo XIII's vision wasn't a dream. He *saw* it.

> Notice too, how as soon you came ITT you trashed the peace and tranquility I knew
News for you: There is no peace on this earth. We are at war.

>>13003625
have sex

>>13007160
*sorry Peter being the first pope.

>>13007168
You'd like that, wouldn't you?

>>13007089
Appreciate it. I'm writing a book on it. But I'll take your suggestion to heart - maybe a blog would be more timely and effective than putting together a big book.

>>13007149
I do. It's 2am and I have to get to bed. But check traditio.com - there's plenty there about vestments as well as Burke's antics.

>>13007177
Do it now, before the thread ends and we never find you again!

so what do sedes do? They pray for for a new and true pope? and meanwhile? they attend no masses? are all sacraments being given invalid? what about the real presence?

>>13007160
Pray the rosary.

>>13007179
Thank you brother, sleep well.
Christ be with you.

>>13007177
please do

>>13003625
Sedes are the middle ground, they've noticed the way the Papacy has been going since forever and know that things aren't the way they should be, and rejected the Papacy in all ways possible, which of course makes them not exactly loyal to the post-Vatican II Papacy, but they still cling to the idea of a non-existent perfectly functioning Papacy, and so they haven't formally abandoned Catholicism for... a variety of a personal reasons I imagine.
They need to reevaluate their Christian faith as a whole and either go back to being loyal to the current Papacy completely, or convert to another denomination they find the truth they're looking for in, but this indecisive middle ground is just not going to work.

>>13007155
Not sure about Nagasaki but in Hiroshima 8 Jesuits survived the blast in a house near their parish even though the bomb hit near them

https://www.tfp.org/the-amazing-story-of-the-hiroshima-eight/

>>13007004
This. I'm Orthodox, so I don't know too much about RC hierarchy but Cardinal Sarah seems like a good traditional Christian. I probably would have become Catholic if he was representative of the Roman Church.

>>13007244
Don't convert around based on the current Earthly state of some church Anon, convert only because of the theology behind the church being legitimate and truthful.

>>13007244
You're doing it wrong... :(

>>13007244
You're good where you're at, brother. Only convert if you discerned God wants you to become Catholic. I know my place is with the 'Roman' Church.

>>13007262
That is exactly why I converted to Orthodoxy desu. Originally I just wanted the Protestantism that I was raised in plus tradition, but the actions of the Catholic Clergy in my country are so despicable that I decided to look Eastwards and found that the theology of Orthodoxy is far more coherent to me than Western theology.

>>13007295
His post comes off as so humble and wholesome I can tell he's true Christian. Post like that will save the thread from the near shit flinging that just happened.

>>13007299
Based, God keep you my friend.

>>13007307
I care more about his soul than I do the shitflinging in this thread.

>>13006923
No it's you who is the problem. You all need to wake up to yourselves. Pretending to worship a dead kike because you think it will save the west is beyond pathetic.

>>13007307
Sadly I find in some places that people will be damned for not aligning with their theology, no matter what. If you don't follow X, you're damned. To bad so sad, should've been with us.

The arrogance is angering. And although I understand the logic and steady reasoning behind. I think of all the great battles fought, and I simply cannot look at all those dead men and think "They're in hell, they're damned because they didn't conform to this theology".

I just can't.

>>13007320
>muh kike on a stick

>>13006912
The idea of having no ego has inflated your ego. You are delusional.

>>13007320
its not about save the east or west but of the souls.

>>13007320
>Pretending to worship a dead kike because you think it will save the west is beyond pathetic.

The West? He came to save our Souls brother. This Kingdom will die, His is eternal.

>>13006926
Superior Christian virtue everybody.

>>13007328
>>13007329
Holy mind

>>13007105
What did you expect from christcucks? You didn't really expect the priest to lambast heretics?

>>13007299
Are you American? I am, and i'm still staying in the CC but I have you know i'm Hispanic as well. There's nothing about Orthodoxy that pulls me to convert, no offense. The spirituality, the saints, and the Marian doctrines and apparitions make me stay like a rock. I have also have a personal belief that Mexico City is the holiest site in the Western Hemisphere. More Catholics visit the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe than the Vatican every year to see Our Lady.

>>13007328
Nobody believes you.

>>13007324
I find both Catholics and Orthodox are guilty of this but on 4chin at least Orthodoxy got meme'd hard and many prots who already had a bad taste in their mouth regarding Catholicism use Orthodox theology as a kind of weapon against Catholics. They already viewed Catholicism as the "whore of Babylon" and when they converted to Orthodox they become even more emboldened because now they feel like they have the "true" religion and use arguments to tear down people's faith.

>>13007347
I don't care if they believe me, That is up to them and God.

>>13007380
You are only deluding yourself.

>>13007387
What am I doing that deludes my self? Do you not do the same thing with your own religious identity?

>>13007387
As opposed to you who dismisses Christianity if not a religion as a whole based on very surface level observations that millions have made before you?

>>13007367
It's even worse on cripplechan too man. You hope to be around sensible and good men, which they are. Fiercely intelligent and pious, not even just in religious matters but in education of all forms, university educated. But the intolerance, the mere smear and finality without remorse of "They're damned, too bad", is kinda shocking. The Church said so, so it must be. There is no salvation outside of the Church sorta shit. The Church must always be right, except for those other times when it was wrong, and there was three Popes at once.

>>13007345
>Are you American?
No, I'm Australian. Our Catholic Cardinal has basically been confirmed to have been molesting children and covering it up. I think that most Catholics here are sincere but I don't think I can put myself under the authority of men like that.

>There's nothing about Orthodoxy that pulls me to convert, no offense. The spirituality, the saints, and the Marian doctrines and apparitions make me stay like a rock.
None taken. I think the opposite in many ways. The spirituality of monastic life, even out here in Australia, is unlike anything I've seen in any other Christian denomination, here at least. The early saints we venerate are mostly the same, the saint I intend to take as my patron, St. Guthlec of Crowland, is usually considered a Catholic or Anglican Saint, but he is ours as well. As for the Marian doctrines, they are a matter of theological opinion in Orthodoxy, you can certainly have particular devotion to the Theotokos, but they're not dogmatised either. As for the Apparitions, I've not researched enough, I'm not completely sold that they are real but I'm not going to claim they are faked either. I'll have to do more research honestly.

What do you think of Byzantine Rite Catholics? they differ from us only in that they accept the office of the Pope as you accept it. But they also canonized St Gregory Palamas, so I'm not sure where most Catholics stand on them.

>>13007399
Don't go to cripplechan's Christian boards the main one has a discord and It's absolutely disgusting.

I have pictures of other users and mod chats.

>>13007402
Not the one you're answering to but...

>Australian
Do you know of Father Lazarus? He's an Australian who picked up the monastic life and has become an Anchorite in Egypt, at St. Anthony's Monastery, while he has become Oriental Orthodox and not Eastern Orthodox, I think you might appreciate his personal account.

>>13007396
You delude yourself into be a christcuck because of Pol memes and lit larper threads.

>>13007398
Nobody has any logical reason to be Christian.

>>13007409
Dude, I've been in the discord for years now. I hardly like to post because I can't have an actual conversation without a lot of the personality less jannies ruining everything. Not even bad stuff, and any conversation or debate comes down too, "The Church said it, it must be true, if you say anything more it's heresy and I'll ban you".

Seriously? Shit like that gets my blood boiling.

>>13007409
Argument with the mods.
I got banned for this btw.

>>13007418
I converted because of personal experiences not because of 4chan

>>13007418
And you're one to talk? It's pretty clear you're being dismissive of Christianity exactly because of Pol memes, larpers of your own circle and generally, online memery. And not because you have any real knowledge or experience of what you're being dismissive of, read, it's what we do here.

>>13007414
I am aware of Fr Lazarus. He was actually Eastern Orthodox before becoming Coptic. He went to a Serbian monastery and heard the Theotokos answer his prayers the first time he venerated her icons. He stayed in the Serbian Orthodox Church for a few years but eventually went to Egypt for more ascetic monasticism. As far as I know, he became Oriental more so he could go to Egypt than for the theology, not that there is much difference in theology between us. There are quite a few Copts who attend the Liturgy at my local Greek monastery. I don't think there is much of a difference between us desu

>>13007441
There really isn't much difference theologically, they split mostly because of socio-political reasons at the time and most Copts and even plenty of parishes have no issue with Chalcedon, the Schism should be mended and it could be done fairly easily but you know... church bureaucracy on both sides is slow and troublesome.

>>13007431
Lies.

>>13007435
I'm dismissive of Christianity because at one point I considered becoming Christian, but once I rationally evaluated it and concluded it is kike bullshit designed to keep stupid people under control.

>>13007449
wrong egypt culture heavily modified the religion dramatically different the western culture did

>>13007449
This is what I mean. The Copts don't participate in the mysteries at the EO parishes but in every other way we consider them basically in the same as us. Hopefully we can rejoin with the OO soon.

>>13007459
I'm not lying? Why would I lie?

>>13007402
1/2
>No, I'm Australian
My condolences. One of our Cardinals, Mccarrick, did horrific things and he's the most infamous criminal of the so-called "summer of shame" of 2018.

> I think that most Catholics here are sincere but I don't think I can put myself under the authority of men like that.
My local Bishop seems kinda based. He talked about the abuse crises and urged the laity to pray and not give up hope. Some Catholics across the country said their bishops and priest said nothing.

>As for the Apparitions, I've not researched enough, I'm not completely sold that they are real but I'm not going to claim they are faked either.
Not all of them are real but the two biggest ones on the top of my head, Guadalupe, and Lourdes, have been approved by the Popes.

The story behind Guadalupe is kinda long for this post but basically a recently converted native Mesoamerican, Juan Diego, was visited by Our Lady several times and she told him to tell the local Bishop to build a church for her there at the spot of her visit. The Bishop told Diego to ask Our Lady to give him a sign, when he saw Our Lady again She told him to collect the nearby Castilian Rose's, which are not native and weren't brought to Mexico, and put them in his Tilma (cloak). When Diego presented the roses to the Bishop, the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was miraculously printed on his cloak and to this day it still exist and is venerated.

Really there's too much to say about it, like how the Mesoamericans, who still understood hieroglyphics saw the Image as a message from God.

I''m not a fan of this sede channel (lol) but he does a good job telling the story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds7nD_QNeKA

>>13007459
>>kike bullshit

Just listen to yourself. Seriously?

>>13007345
I'm a white American Catholic but I appreciate you, Mexican/Hispanic bro. I too believe that Mexico City is holy, more holy than any US city I can think of, except maybe for New Orleans.

I also take the Marian apparitions deadly seriously, and I count them as a mark in the Catholic Church's favor. The incredible healings at Lourdes, and the signs and wonders at Fatima, are too powerful for me to ignore. These are marvels that we can't simply deny. We have to account for them, as Catholics.

>>13007475
You worship a Jewish storm god. Who is the ridiculous one here?

>>13007475
It's not worth casting pearls before swine I'm afraid, he already "rationally evaluated it" in his mind when he was 15 without doing any research, reading theology, getting catechized or anything of that sort, we can only hope for the best for him.

>>13007467
You convinces yourself it's true , that's part of the larp.

>>13007493
But I actually experienced spiritual grace.
How do I lie about that?

>>13007490
Actually I was 28, and read every single major work of Catholic and orthodox theology and mysticism, around 150 books, as well as talked to 5 different Catholic priests, one protestant and one orthodox.

All of them were clearly homosexuals and only 1 really seemed to believe in his religion.

Ultimately though it's just kike bullshit.

>>13007499
You imagined it.

>>13007402
>>13007470
2/2
>What do you think of Byzantine Rite Catholics?
I don't know about them too much. I'm vaguely aware there's Eastern Catholic sects who are close to the Orthodox traditions and yet are in full communion with the Holy See. I plan on researching them some more but understanding the history and theology of my church is pretty overwhelming that I don't spend enough time on fellow Orthodox Christians.

>St Gregory Palamas
I don't know who he is but I've opened a tab and bookmarked. It's getting late over here and I need to pray and read scripture before bed. Peace be with you, brother. :)

>>13007502
Don't you have better things to do then lie on a Mongolian basketing weaving blog?

>>13007481
Oh, I appreciate you too, brother. I wanted to briefly bring up Lourdes in particularly as one the major apparitions. The whole story of St. Bernadette inspires me, I'm not confirmed yet but I think I might have her be my patron saint. Okay, now i'm going to sleep. Good night and peace be with you.

>>13007513
Why would I lie? It's a very specific 'lie'

>>13007525
Most lies are specific. Still don't know why you feel the need to though.

>>13007510
God bless, friend. Hopefully you'll have some good reading tomorrow.

>>13007529
You are wrong. It isnt a lie.

Your christkike psychological defense mechanism doesn't allow you to consider the possibility that an adult could sincerely investigate your cult and conclude it's not real, so you automatically accuse me of lying. It saves you from entertaining the idea that you might be living a lie.

>>13007540
Nope, it's still a lie.

You are lying. On an internet image bulletin board.

>>13007505
huh. just like this conversation with you in 3 days.

>>13007547
Keep coping christcuck.

>>13007557
Hey man, you're the one going on and on with your profanity and your euphoric intelligence.

I'm just saying you're lying. The only person coping is you.

>>13007566
You are coping with the fact that you can't accept rational people reject your kike storm deity worship.

>>13007574
Except I never once said I was a Christian, for all your rationality and reasoning it all seems to come down to insults, lies, and assumptions.

I mean seriously dude, why you coping so hard man? I can feel it.

>>13007582
>I know you are but what am I

The absolute state of christcucks.

>>13007593
>>I know you are but what am I

Come sir, explain in greater detail. You continue to insult me with nothing to work off of except the insult itself. From any creditable point of view, your insults are low-tier and try hardish.

You can't just keep saying stuff like "Christcuck" and "dead kike on a stick" like you're the first person to come up with it. You have to be more creative with your bait, less forecoming and retarded.

All you seem to do is lie and fail at baiting.

>>13007574
You're not rational and you're lying.
You're telling me that as a grown adult man, you've read 150 books solely on one religion while giving none of the names of siad books, saying you've even went out of your way to speak to several priests of differing denominations, receive several forms of catechisms. possibly even attend church and only then, were you convinced that "nah, there's nothing to this, it's just some kike bs lol, kike on a stick haha.".

And all that, has lead to this point, where if anyone brings up Christianity, you just become a physical manifestation of a rooster that can't stop saying "cuck" for 3 hours straight, without actually saying anything of remotely substantial against the religion despite supposedly being more educated in regards to the it than most top Atheist apologists and certainly more knowledgeable than most theologians just by the number of books and wide range of ground you covered alone.

And the peak of all that knowledge, research, pondering, thinking and going out of your way to experience the religion is the word "cuck" and "kike on a stick".

You're not fooling anyone my friend, as long as you're not being honest with other people you're not worth anyone's time frankly.

>>13007605
>You can't just keep saying stuff like "Christcuck" and "dead kike on a stick" like you're the first person to come up with it.

Why do I need to come up with something original when this is actually factually what Christianity is? A slavish cult for cuckolds.

>>13007615
Correction:
*none of the names of said books

>>13007617
Ah, the classic; only responds to a single sentence out of an entire paragraph. For somebody with the intelligence of Einstein whose studied the ancients with such rigor, it seems your so called rationale is only capable of comprehending a fraction of a fraction within any given paragraph.

No wonder you could read 150 books, you only had in reality processed the smallest fraction of a sentence within a paragraph contained on a page sided by hundreds of other ones.

So you're right, you're not a liar. You're just a retard.

>>13007615
>You're telling me that as a grown adult man, you've read 150 books solely on one religion while giving none of the names of siad books, saying you've even went out of your way to speak to several priests of differing denominations

Why would I start listing the names? Basically everything published by Paulist press on Catholic mysticism, I've read it. I attended mass for several moths, entered an rcia, sincerely giving it a chance, I was willing to believe , but ultimately it's bullshit. I say that now with several years behind me. Now I can simply enjoy upsetting you death cultists.

Christianity has nothing to do with knowledge. You can read 1500 books and it won't make you believe. Ultimately it has no rational basis for acceptance except the command to obey and believe, with some post hoc rationalisations invented by homosexual monks from the 13th century.

>>13007641
>upsetting you death cultists

I'm having fun?

>>13007646
No you are upset. Im having the fun.

>>13007649
There is no way for you too know whether or not I am having fun or not having fun with complete certainty.

I can ensure you I am having fun, whether your wish to believe that is entirely up to you.

It doesn't change the fact that you're a liar.

>>13007654
You are the liar here. Lying about having fun when you are actually mad.

>>13007658
I am enjoying myself! I am reading a book right now while watching this thread.

But you are the liar.

>No you are upset. Im having the fun.

>>13007666
>666

Begone Satan

>>13007658
You're still a liar

>>13006546
I call papacy dibs
I'll crown londonfrog Holy Roman Emperor if he hasn't necked himself by then

>>13007685
You are

>>13007691
nope, u are

>>13007691
It's been five minutes since your last reply, which means your basically admit to being a liar, which means you are.

>>13007713
U r the liar

>>13007770
no u

>>13007848
U

>>13007910
im rubber ur glue everthing u say to me bounces back and stix to u

>>13007916
>T. Dead kike worshipper

>Sedevacantism appears to be centred in, and by far strongest in the United States, and secondarily in other English-speaking countries such as Canada and the United Kingdom, as well as Poland, Mexico, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, and Brazil.[43][44] Anthony Cekada has described the United States as a "sedevacantist bastion", contrasting it with France, where the non-sedevacantist Society of Saint Pius X has a virtual monopoly on the traditionalist Catholic movement.[45]
Best argument against Sedevacantism, imo. If it's coming out of America it's probably wrong.

>>13007615
Rejection of christcuckery is the only rational position.

This thread makes me feel Catholics worship the Church as much as they or even more than they worship God.

>>13008683
>on this rock Peter you build my church and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it.

I'm a searching christian and a russophile who sees a lot that's attractive about orthodox Christianity. How can you bring me around on Calvinism?

>>13007201
>Sedes are the middle ground, they've noticed the way the Papacy has been going since forever and know that things aren't the way they should be, and rejected the Papacy in all ways possible, which of course makes them not exactly loyal to the post-Vatican II Papacy, but they still cling to the idea of a non-existent perfectly functioning Papacy, and so they haven't formally abandoned Catholicism for... a variety of a personal reasons I imagine.
>They need to reevaluate their Christian faith as a whole and either go back to being loyal to the current Papacy completely, or convert to another denomination they find the truth they're looking for in, but this indecisive middle ground is just not going to work.
Catholicism isn't a "denomination"
Using 'sede' as a name for people isn't accurate or recommended. The opposite of someone who you would call a sedevacantist is a sedeplenist - they believe (wrongly) that whoever is sitting in Rome, in the chair of Peter, is "the pope." They think you can't be rational about it - in other words, may the best dog and pony show win.
You can be a pope and commit all kinds of sin. But, you have to be Catholic. For one thing, you have to be ordained a Catholic priest and then consecrated a Catholic bishop. (If a layman were elected pope, these things would then happen before he ascended to the papacy.) You also have to profess the Catholic Faith. All of it, not part of it.
Since Vatican II, we've had men who were ineligible to be priests or bishops, men who were not bishops, now even men who were not priests. And, of course, men who rejected the Catholic Faith and professed something different.

>>13008758
Calvinism is a demented belief system. Orthodoxy God can see past. Calvinism leads to the God being the source of evil.

>>13008725
But no guarantee that they will ALMOST prevail

So.... what are the best texts to read about sedevacantism?

My family are protestant, are they saved? How can I be saved when even the catholic church is corrupt?

Will the lord guide me to the good?

The only trad catholic guy I ever met was a deeply closeted bisexual who wanted to establish an ethno state and was miserable in college because he creeped girls out. His brother dressed like a jedi with a bad haircut. Eventually this guy moved to the West coast for a silicon valley comp sci job.

>>13010074
Thank you for sharing, but I dont think that discounts there thought at all, not that you were trying to.

That webm is terrifying.

I'm a trad cath marxist.

>>13005464
You're doing it wrong if you're not experiencing "the fruits of the holy spirit".

>>13010057
Please, PLEASE ignore the sedevacantists in this thread. They are completely wrong. The seat is not empty. Paul VI was a valid pope, as was John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and as is Francis. They weren't all GOOD popes, but they are all valid popes. Sedevacantism is a heresy. As a trad Catholic I know once put it, "They're Protestants LARPing as Catholics."

If you want to learn about the Catholic Church, learn about the actual Catholic Church, the one with 1.2 billion members.

>>13010151
Yes, I am working on this. I havent attended mass, but I have been reading and listening to audiobooks on it.

Just got this one (pic related).

I just recently discovered the experience of objective good, so I'm basically starting from scratch. Before that I was bought and sold on relativism and darwinian nihilism.

>>13010181
Read Augustine's Confessions. It's a very wonderful, moving story of personal conversion and an intimate relationship with God. You'll love it. You might also check out some of the lives of the saints, like Saint Athanasius' "The Life of Saint Anthony." The lives of the saints are incredibly inspiring because they're ordinary men and women who became extraordinary due to their faith in Christ.

Be warned, the current modern Mass (the Novus Ordo) can be done very badly and may put you off the Faith. It can be done very well, but it can also be done very badly, and seems to be done badly more often than not. When you want to attend Mass, try to find a parish that has a "reverent" Novus Ordo, or on the other hand a parish that offers the Latin Mass. They're more common than they used to be.

>>13010211
Yes, St. Augustine is on my list! I definitely want to learn about the saints.

St. Francis of Assisi is so incredible. He gave us so much, for his beliefs.

>>13010247
One other book I can recommend is "The Introduction to the Devout Life," by St. Francis de Sales. Unlike a lot of books you'll find, which were written for clergy or monks or nuns, this book was written specifically for laity, and it's a guide on how to live a holy, saintly life within the confines of the everyday world. It's perfect for someone just getting into Christianity.

>>13010257
Awesome, downloaded! Sounds really great. I appreciate the help.

>>13006614
Clearly Protestantism is synonymous in most ways with modernity, and these communist revolutions are concerned with bringing a traditional or "outdated" country into the modern age, so it makes total sense. That said, in the case of East Germany and others in a similar position, communism actually became the outdated concept compared to post-war liberalism in the west.

>>13010419
Moldbug, as jankey as he is, along with Land, as jankey as he is, both have a good deal of writing on the relationship of protestantism to atheism as well as the long form destruction of hierarchy and the Godly kingdom. Whig histiography.
Guenon writes about this as well. He pins the beginning of the downfall at the Reinessance.

>>13010074
dang that shark was just taking a nap

>>13010537
Protestantism is the way

>>13006490
Extremely contrived explanation for a decision that Truman himself was deeply unsecure about.

>>13006572
>>13006605
You guys are seriously underestimating the level of strife that has been going on between Church and State (and their earlier incarnations) for basicallt millenia. Read Rémi Brague.

Anyone read "Is the Pope Catholic?"
Anyone have thoughts on Hutton Gibson?

>>13003657
fpbp
Sectarianism is a fruit from the pride tree.

>>13011673
>Evangelical Israeli-flag-waving end-times boomers
>Dead-eyed shysters selling prosperity gospel nonsense to rob the elderly
>Bearded youth pastors in acid-washed mom jeans talking about how they have SEX with their BEAUTIFUL WIVES because christianity is HIP
Protestantism is dogshit

>>13011863
Certainly not all protestants are bad:
John Milton if Paradise Lost
Jacob Boheme
Emmanuel Swedenborg

>>13004640
There goes 80% of the church then.

>>13005191
Your interpretation of history is selfish. No one denies that the Latin Rite properly performed is profoundly beautiful. But the responsibility of the bodily church is not just to create a beautiful mass. Their calling is to shepherd the faithful. When an old tree is cut down, there are many who mourn its passing, but cannot see the deadwood for what it is. In their lamentation, they blind themselves also to the new growth. Novus Ordo is not a modernist heresy. Neither is it a permanent solution. Rather, what we might call the vulgar mass is a clearing of the dead wood. Examine the form. It is not like the Latin Rite, in which the entire congregation pays beautiful homage to God. Instead, it is an elaborated Mass of the Catechumens. Its purpose is to reeducate the laity, which grew complacent. How could the 60's have happened, if bad seeds had not been planted many decades before? What did Catholic people do in light of the industrialization of society? What did the Catholic people do to thwart the modernist heresy? Generations watched and participated. It is true that there have been certain visible sicknesses in the bodily church. But what do you see of the invisible church? The reform of the reform is already happening. It is happening in people's hearts. But when you misplace your focus as you do, you slow this rejuvenating process. Jesus himself tells us, it is not our purpose to separate the wheat from the chaff. We are not called to root out the evil in the world. It is not for us to thwart the enemy. We are called to care for all. What is good will, as a matter of course, as a matter of nature, as a matter of God's will, inevitably outgrow what is evil. Novus Ordo is good and the Latin Rite is good. Because you can appreciate the traditional mass, go to the traditional mass. When you find others who are interested, bring them with you. But do not disparage the Novus Ordo. Do not discourage those who attend it. Understand it has a different purpose, and that it is serving its purpose. If you attend the latin mass. And you raise your family in the traditional way, then look--soon latin mass will be the common mass again. And what's more, the common person will understand it. If you hear older priests talk, they will tell you that latin mass as it is today is not like it was. Before, people were disrespectful and impatient. Even priests would rush through the ritual. It was seen as an obligation only, and not the joy that it is. Now, because the uncaring have left, only the caring remain. The numbers are fewer, but the faith is greater. Faith grows by ferver, not by popularity. Leave the clerical litigation to those in the halls of the vatican. For yourself, live your faith truly and without distraction.

>>13011891
Different anon. There is no problem with protestants beyond the problems found in all men. Protestantism however is a terrible snare that has deceived many.

>>13011931
Do you think that a protestant who fears God and does charity for his fellow man will not be allowed into the kingdom of god?

>>13012124
It's a false question. All are invited to the Kingdom of God. Jesus died for the sins of all. The question is whether or not a protestant will be able to accept this sacrifice? Will they be able to recognize God's grace? At the moment of death, will they know Jesus? As Catholics, we find that the protestant churches (each in different ways and proportions) teach dangerous things, misleading things, harmful things. So what will happen to the protestant? I cannot say. But I am confident that protestant teachings are to the detriment of God's children.

>>13012145
you can criticize protestantism, especially american protestantism, justifiably, but at least they've managed to stay opposed to abortion unlike large numbers of catholics nowadays, which is worth something

>>13012334
Catholics were the ones who fought tooth and nail against abortion, contraception and divorce on the first half of the 20th century. It were WASPs and kikes who promoted all of that.

>>13012334
That's untrue. No one is more opposed to abortion than the Catholic church. Many other churches don't even have a strong argument from the sacredness of sex, so rely on biological arguments of fetal development and emotionally compelling, but logically invalid appeals to emotion through graphic imagery. If I had one criticism of Protestantism above all other criticisms, it would be its slow and tragic attack on the dignity of human life. Protestants industrialized. Protestants pushed for mass production. Protestants disregarded the sabbath. Protestants have diminished the value of labor and of craft and of art. Protestants introduced contraceptives. Protestants pushed the idea of the nuclear family over the extended family. Protestants created modernism.

>>13012644
that's mostly just England and the US. this is not to absolve protestantism itself, but rather, the primary force at work is "UK/US bad", they would be bad if the Reformation had never happened

>>13003723
Anyone plan on becoming a priest here?

>>13013221
Aesthetic.

>>13013286

Sedevacantism is obviously wrong to me.

Trad Catholicism is fine. I prefer the Extraordinary Form. However I don't mind just going to my local parish which happens to be run by an order of monks who do a rather barebones interpretation of the Ordinary Form.

I would like to see more Ordinary Form parishes take a cue from the Oratories in the United Kingdom. They usually have a dignified liturgy, frequent confession times, communion rails, etc. with the vernacular for the readings and Latin for parts such as the Agnus Dei, the Credo, etc.

I am more or less content with the state of things in my personal life and my relationship with the Church. I desire to see the changes I mentioned above, but not much else. I know I would be much happier if I could kneel and receive the Eucharist in a dignified manner without looking like a complete weirdo in the Communion line. It would also be nice if more priests made themselves available for Confession without having to make appointments.

>>13013332
>Extraordinary Form
What does this mean?

>>13013362
It refers to a form of the Roman Catholic Mass. The Extraordinary Form is the Latin Mass as it was said in 1962. The Ordinary Form is the form after Vatican II typically said in the vernacular but does not necessarily need to be in the vernacular completely. There are other things besides that which I am too tired to get into. But sedevacantists make the argument that Ordinary Form Masses aren't valid which is just tinfoil hat crazy. All that is needed to consecrate the bread and the wine is for a priest to use the words of consecration... at least as far as I know.

>>13013385
So the Latin Tridentine Mass is the extraordinary form, and if I went to mass locally it would be ordinary?

>>13013402
Yes, that is perhaps the easiest way to explain it from one layman to another layman.

I'm a Sedvacantist, but it's going to get harder and harder (it's already hard0 as the few remaining priests ordained prior to Vatican 2 and the beginning of the degeneracy in the church are nearing death. We need jus a total break. After Notre Dame, they've shown they aren't even responsible custodians of our heritage.
The throne of Peter has been empty since Pius XII. a VERY interesting piece of this puzzle are the Fatima prophecies. This isn't some insane bullshit BTW, look into it. Thousands and thousands of people, including academics, reporters, doctors, people from all walks of life witnessed the events of that day. Even people who lived miles away and didn't know what was meant to happen on that day remarked on the bizarre phenomenon in their diaries.
We've never been told what message was actually given to Lucia, but quite interestingly she specified that if she died before it could be done, the letter should be opened in 1961. Now why would she pick that date back in he early 20s? What was happening in 1961? Why, they were planning Vatican II of course.
What the Church WAS before Vatican II and what it has turned into can be witnessed simply by looking into the life of Tolkien. He was English who spent some time in South Africa, hardly the type of background you'd expect to produce a fervent Catholic. And yet, when he was left an orphan, the priests were the only people who showed him kindness, took him in, and helped him further his studies. which is the reason he remained devoted throughout his life.
And this fucking pope, the jesuit scum that he is, he really, really needs to go. Scum, communist, "liberation theologists" like all the Jesuits. I won't get into anything else since this is /lit/, but I'd invite you to look into the Fatims Story with the most skeptical mind possible, and see if you can explain what happened using logic.

>>13013411
Thank you

>>13013426
Do you know what a private revelation is?

I have a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima but there's no way you can justify holding a sedevacantist position and thinking that a private revelation could somehow support the sedevacantist position. If Our Lady of Fatima revealed something as contrary to the faith as sedevacantism, then her apparition would not be an approved private revelation.

Simple as.

....

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

The Catholic obsession with this ritual is so faggy. Why do you care how some faggot pedo priests sing some bullshit songs made up only a few hundred or 60 years ago. Why do you in 2020 give a shit? It has nothing to do with you and means nothing.

>>13013426
Fascinating.
Can you direct me to your resources on this so I can get a good look without tainting?
Do you have any other phenomena or insights you can share with me?

>>13013446
der ewige baptist

>>13013446
>The Catholic obsession with this ritual is so faggy. Why do you care how some faggot pedo priests sing some bullshit songs made up only a few hundred or 60 years ago. Why do you in 2020 give a shit? It has nothing to do with you and means nothing.

>>13013442
>Do you know what a private revelation is?
Are you telling me you were born Catholic, baptized, confirmed, learned church history and the history of the martyrs, etc... and you are still talking out of your fucking ass like this?>>13013442
>would not be an approved private revelation.
It was NOT a "private revelation," as it was witnessed by tens of thousands. and for you to try to apply rules for what sort of Revelations the Origin would or would not make in time of the greatest crisis in the history of the Church is hubris on a level that is almost unimaginable. This is a totally unique situation in which the church has become ROTTEN to it's very core, to the point where the bones of martyrs like St. simon of trent were dumped into an unmarked grave at the behest of the Jews.
I still don't get your argument or what you're saying. so, you are AGAINST Sedvacantism and you say that the Virgin could Not warn the people of a coming calamity because...part of Lucia's message she did not make public, while the miracle that announced her as being truthful was public? What does that even mean?
And do you agree that that this is the worst, most egotistical pope the church has ever had (that includes the Borgias and the Avignon Papacy popes) since he has not only left the door open for wolves to attack the European catholic flock, but he is ENCOURAGING MORE OF THEM! My guess is that you're a mexican who has no real understanding of Church dogma since you mix it with your bizarre Aztec bullshit. We have NOT been told the real 3rd secret of fatima, and there is a reason Pope Benedict became the first pope in history ever to resign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22-cb9fTan4

St. simon and what the Jews did to the Church after Vatican II:

http://www.stsimonoftrent.com

>>13013462
I assume you're being Sarcastic, but, as I said, I invite you to go into looking at Fatima a with your "richard Dawkins Book" in hand and your Jewish New Age guru Hat and to do your best to explain logically what many thousands saw that day. see video below hymie:

>>13013462 In particular, he dwelt on the case of St Simon of Trent. This two-year old child from the Italian town of Trent was kidnapped by a few Ashkenazi Jews from his home on the eve of Passover 1475 AD. At night, the kidnappers murdered the child; drew his blood, pierced his flesh with needles, crucified him head down calling “So may all Christians by land and sea perish”, and thus they celebrated their Passover, an archaic ritual of outpouring blood and killed babies, in the most literal form, without usual metaphoric “blood-wine” shift.
The killers were apprehended, confessed and were found guilty by the Bishop of Trent. Immediately, the Jews took their protest to the Pope and he had sent the bishop of Ventimiglia to investigate. He allegedly accepted a hefty bribe from the Jews and concluded that the child was murdered by a Hamas mine in order to besmirch Israel, as there was no Tsahal ordnance found on the beach of Trent. “Simon had been killed by Christians with the intention of ruining the Jews”, said the pre-war Jewish Encyclopedia, in a clear case of premonition: the same argument was used by Jews in 2006 while explaining away the mass murder of children in Kafr Qana.
However, in 15th century the Jews were influential, yes, but all-powerful, no. They could not deal with the world like they did in 2002 after their massacre of Jenin by ordering everybody to buzz off. They had no American veto in the Security Council. They could not bomb Rome, and the word “antisemitism” was invented 400 years later. They were given a fair deal which is much worse than preferred treatment: Pope Sixtus IV assembled a commission of six cardinals chaired by the best legal mind of that time, for retrial; and this Supreme Court found the murderers guilty. See more for a Catholic version and a Jewish version of the events. The records of the trial have survived centuries and are still available in Vatican.
In 1965, the Roman Catholic Church entered a perestroika[i]. These were the halcyon days of the Vatican II when the modernizers uprooted the foundations of tradition hoping to update the faith and to fit it into the new Jewish-friendly narrative of modernity; in plain prose, the bishops wanted to be loved by the liberal press.
The ever-watchful Jews used the opportunity and pushed the bishops to decommission St Simon of Trent. They were happy to oblige: already in bizarre ritual, the Church leaders had found the Jews free from guilt for Crucifixion of Christ while admitting the Church’s guilt for persecution of Jews; the crucifixion of an Italian baby was a small matter compared with this reversal. In a hasty decision, the bishops ruled that the confessions of the killers were unacceptable because obtained under torture, and thus the accused were innocent, while the young martyr was anything but. His cult was discontinued and forbidden, and the remains of the martyred child were dumped in a secret to avoid resumption of pilgrimage".

"And now we come back to Dr Ariel Toaff. While going through the papers of the trial, he made a staggering discovery: instead of being dictated by the zealous investigators under torture, the confessions of the killers contained material totally unknown to the Italian churchmen or police. The killers belonged to the small and withdrawn Ashkenazi community, they practiced their own rites, quite different from those used by the native Italian Jews; these rites were faithfully reproduced in their confessions, though they were not known to the Crime Squad of the day. “These liturgical formulas in Hebrew with a strong anti-Christian tone cannot be projections of the judges who could not know these prayers, which didn't even belong to Italian rites but to the Ashkenazi tradition," Toaff wrote. A confession is of value only if it contains some true and verifiable details of the crime the police did not know of. This iron rule of criminal investigation was observed in Trent trials.
This discovery has the potential to shake, shock and reshape the Church. The noble learned rabbi Dr Toaff brought back St Simon, the double victim of 15th century vengeance and of 20th century perestroika. This called for repentance of the Vatican doctors who forgot the murdered child while looking for friendship with important American Jews, but they still do not admit their grave error. Monsignor Iginio Rogger, a church historian who in the 1960s [mis]led the investigation into St Simon's case, said that the confessions were completely unreliable for “the judges used horrible tortures”. This was an antizionist and hence antisemitic remark, for rejection of confessions obtained under torture would let all the Palestinian prisoners out of Jewish jails; this was an anti-American remark, for the US recognizes the value of torture and practices it in Guantanamo and elsewhere. This was a holocaust-denier remark for thus they invalidate the Nürnberg trials. The renown Jewish American lawyer and adept of torture Alan Dershowitz could have argued against Rogger; but somehow he did not.
"I wouldn't want to be in Toaff's shoes, answering for this to historians who have seriously documented this case," said Rogger to USA Today. Toaff’s shoes are vastly preferable to those of Rogger who will have to answer for slighting the saint in Heaven."
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Eng11.htm

>>13013489
I wasnt being sarcastic at all. Truly interested.

>>13013489
Thank you, brother.

>>13013493
>>13013511
Wait, is this antisemitic? Not sure I should've thanked you. Looks suspicious.

>>13013486
>http://www.stsimonoftrent.com
i follow E. Michael Jones and im well aware of all the jewery but padre Pio never said that about the jews. puts all the rest into question to be honest

>>13013466
Incorrect

>>13013486
Private revelation cannot change the deposit of faith as contained in public revelation. Do you know what is the difference between public and private revelation? They are precise theological terms.

>>13013589
What's your delineation

>>13013844
What's yours?

>>13013543
>padre Pio never said that about the jews.
After searching, I sound ONE website that is post Vatican-II, jew-loving POZ that claims he didn't. Since every other quote there is correct, I'd go with them. Will actually email the webmaster to get their source....

>>13013520
>Wait, is this antisemitic? Not sure I should've thanked you.
Jesus Christ. The Church is, BY DEFINITION, before the Vatican II heresy, anti-Jew. Recall, "the prayer for the perfidious Jews" that was in the Goof Friday liturgy that forced them to take out? It's fucking moral cowards lie you that are the reason the Church is where it is now-- full of pederasty, theologically lost, without any of the backbone of is first 150- years in terms of morality, afraid of their own shadows and willing to be fleeced by the Jews, etc...
It's now~55 years since the (((reforms))) of Vatican II-- look where the Church is right now. And you, I assume, are Catholic and your biggest fucking concern in life-- on an anonymous website-- is "wait, is that website anti-Jewish?" Recall "the are of your father the evil and the lusts of your father yes shalll do?"
Just count the Jews in this very thread trying to make a mockery of everything. Look on the people pushing every sort of vice and corrupting the entire traditional catholic world. The Pope, speaking ex cathedra, HAS EXPELLED THE JEWS FROM CHRISTIAN LANDS NUMEROUS TIME. THEREFORE, IF YOU ARE CATHOLIC, BEING ANTI-JEWISH COMES DIRECTLY FROM GOD, SINCE THE POPE SPEAKING "FROM THE CHAIR OF AUTHORITY"ON FAITH OR MROALS IS GOD'S MOUTHPIECE.

>>13013589
>Private revelation cannot change the deposit of faith as contained in public revelation. Do you know what is the difference between public and private revelation? They are precise theological terms.
I'm sure there are. There are also precise definitions against pederasty, but that hasn't stopped the post-Vatican II church right up to the 3rd in command, has it? The entire edifice post-vatican II is a rotten, worm-rotten, diseased filth that is no longer eve fit to oversee irreplaceable cultural monuments, which was the one reason I kept my mouth shut and was willing to tolerate it. No longer.

>>13013462
>Fascinating.
>Can you direct me to your resources on this so I can get a good look without tainting?
>Do you have any other phenomena or insights you can share with me?
Hey, you greasy, leering, hook-nosed monster KIKE, where'd you go? I'm just a dumb Catholic, how do you think I spotted your high kikery all the way in Tel-aviv?

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!"
~ St. Gregory of Nyssa

Don't forget, both AH and Himmler ere born Catholics, and so will be the next man who FINALLY SOLVES the Issue...

>>13006413
Obviously. This has been the argument of almost every great Catholic social theorist. Christ calls us to a fundamentally radical life. Not one in plush bourgeois capitalist comfort in the imperial core. God stands in judgment of soulless materialist cultures--especially when they shore themselves up on hatred and exploitation.

>>13014059
t. Non-Christian

>>13014079
I'm Catholic. I go to Mass daily. The fact that the logical practical conclusion of Christ's message makes you uncomfortable is a sign of its truth and urgency. Our praxis as it relates to our neighbor should be radical, self-mortifying love of the other.

When He told the rich man to give everything up and follow him, and said it was harder for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven, that wasn't just hyperbole. If God isn't the center of our lives, then we're failing to imitate His Son. I'm certainly not living on the streets in sack-cloth or joining the Carthusians or embracing poverty of my own free will, but it's better to be honest about it and at least acknowledge that Christ will judge me unfavorably for it.

>>13006247
This kills the Orthodox.

>>13014112
>the logical practical conclusion of Christ's message

But Christianity is only about worshipping Jesus and not at all about his supposed teachings. And it has never been about finding “practical logical conclusions” (something the Saducees cared a lot about, incidentally) by using sophistry. But who are YOUR Christians? Who are you contrasting with us Americans? Impoverished foreign people have all the arrogance and haughtiness and spite and avarice and prejudice that you wish Americans had. And these supposedly blessed foreigners are still more likely to join the kind of hateful street riot that caused Christ’s martyrdom.

If anything makes anyone uncomfortable, it’s the practice of the actual Christian religion as opposed to the doctrine of Jesusism.

>>13014176
>But Christianity is only about worshipping Jesus and not at all about his supposed teachings.

What does this even mean? Christ specifically calls us to take up His Cross and follow Him. By emptying ourselves in imitation of Him, we can participate more actively in His love for us, and better adore Him in others. If we love Him totally, why shouldn't we try to imitate His perfection like He told us to, and behave how He said he wanted us to?

What kind of "sophistry" is "we have an obligation to take care of the poor?" Seems soulless to reduce Christian practice to the liturgy. And hugely Protestant. You can't compartmentalize Christ, and no one can serve two masters.

>who are YOUR Christians

This doesn't mean anything because it's not about "serving Christians," or anything like that. Love of neighbor is by very uncontroversially about self-sacrifice for other people, and about not sitting idly by when other people are trounced on by the world--greed, lust, apostasy, what have you. And this is standard Catholic social teaching. It's not about "foreign people," because that's an arbitrary distinction. We're all one in Christ. And surely you can't deny that the ideology underpinning America isn't Catholic, doesn't impel submission to the Church, and upholds feel-good liberal ideas like "freedom," "equality," and "opportunity" (already indicating a distorted sense of priority) only in name, in fact generating tons of violence.

Western Capitalism might as well be a heresy for all it owes to Protestant egotism, anti-clericalism, and materialism. It wants to subjugate the sacred to the material and assert that the immediate, supernatural demands of our religion should be deferred and placed into the private sphere so there's more room for people to pursue comfort and personal satisfaction at all costs. Does that sound like "the practice of actual Christian religion" to you?

>>13014260
Christianity is not a recipe book for creating a perfect society, like a naive political manifesto. It’s not a list of tedious thou-shalts and thou-shalt-nots for scrupulous believers to live their lives by, like the stupid Quran is. Christianity can only teach by inspiration. That’s why in Catholicism the flock is encouraged to admire the saints and to identify with the sufferings of the passion (the stations of the cross is a great example of this). We’re supposed to be inspired by the celibate priesthood into being less attached to powerful worldly influences (the most powerful being familial attachments). This kind of teaching by inspiration is why different people can attach greater or lesser significance to certain episodes in the Bible. There are no obligations, but there is supposed to be awe and fear. The worship of a suffering and persecuted Jesus is what inspires the awe and fear.

And yes the underpinnings of America aren’t catholic, but the underpinnings of the whole world are non-catholic. Which is why we have to reject the world. Isn’t Satan called “the lord of this world”? But no I’m not less virtuous than you just because I don’t sympathize with people who have low incomes or few savings. And America is less anti-clerical than certain traditionally catholic countries like France and Mexico.

>>13014352
We basically agree actually. Except America is at the helm of a neoliberal capitalist order (which it's eager to violently defend) in the way that, e.g., Mexico is not, nor is Sri Lanka, nor is Croatia (at least not to the same extent). It's perfectly sensible to disdain capitalism and capital's exploitativeness under Christian influence, and then try to act based on political reality in such a way as procures justice for the poor.

>But no I’m not less virtuous than you just because I don’t sympathize with people who have low incomes or few savings

I didn't say that, and even if I did it wouldn't be up to me.

However:

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? 38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

We owe God everything. We have obligations to Him. God bless.

Fuck off christcucks

>>13014592
no u

>>13014352
>there are no obligations

t. prot. have you ever heard of mortal sin?