/lit/ - Literature

I'm surprised I don't see this book mentioned more often. It's literally homosexual kiddie porn novel by a man lauded by the establishment as a "genius."

Throughout the book, children are continuously raped and beaten.

The author, Samuel Delany, admitted that he wrote the novel as a pornographic fantasy for himself and his homosexual lover. He further admitted that they masturbated each other to scenes that he'd written. Hogg has no plot. Its a series of scenes in which the most grotesque child rape fantasies are expressed.

Delaney, a black man, currently teaches creative writing at Temple University. He's regularly profiled by magazines and newspapers like the New Yorker and New York Times. These profiles promote him as a literary icon. Junot Diaz, among others, cite him among their heroes. He's celebrated as one of America's most important LGBT writers.

>>12640226
>Turns out this post is actually accurate
We should unironically gas the whole LGBYQIJHKLBU community

*AHEM*
Sieg Heil Hitler

>>12640254

If you don't reserve a significant portion of your outrage for the publishing / critical / academic industry, you're missing the point.

This man is beloved by the current literary establishment. He has tenure at Temple University. He likely makes around $120,000 annually.

He's black, homosexual, and suffers from a learning disability. He's not especially bright. He writes kiddie porn novels in which boys are raped to death.

This is the current state of "approved" American literature.

>>12640226
>>12640254
>>12640329
seething

>>12640258
Based and Piercepilled

>>12640226
>Hogg has no plot.

i thought it was about that crazy guy who got injured, who was slowly rotting away and who would show up every so often to let us see how badly his infected injury was getting.

>>12640329
>He writes kiddie porn novels in which boys are raped to death.

i don't think he's lauded for "Hogg", which most people have never even heard of, much less read. i thought "Babel-17" was cool, "Empire Star" was weird, and "Dhalgren" was, as indicated above, gay porn.

he did once write cool stuff. then he stopped giving a damn.

>>12641704

Again, this misses the point. The issue here is that this man is held up as a "genius" by those in control of the American literary establishment. What values do they champion? Who do they promote? Why would they choose Samuel Delany over others?

Most readers of /lit/ accept that American contemporary "high literature" is a disaster: most of it is boring; few can sit through a story in the New Yorker or Ploughshares or Harpers or the Missouri Review without nodding off. But the literary establishment isn't just full of harmless ideological hacks like the Union of Soviet Writers was during the 60s, 70s and 80s. It actively encourages debasement, perversion, weakness, exhaustion and nihilism. It's both boring and purulent.

The sickness of this culture runs so deep that few can see it clearly.

>>12642338
>The issue here is that this man is held up as a "genius" by those in control of the American literary establishment.
Not really, he's a minor figure -- a genre fiction writer with a slightly elevated reputation because of Dhalgren and Times Square Red/Blue. Most of the libtard moralists you're talking about probably aren't familiar with his work, except that he's a gay black dude, and probably wouldn't care to read it.

>>12642360

I respectfully disagree. Given the attention he's regularly given by the NYRB, Bookforum, etc., who fight over themselves to praise him, I'd argue that Delany -- despite being a hack -- has become a treasured author in their eyes. It doesn't matter whether he's widely read. What matters is that he's lauded by today's tastemakers.

>>12640329
He's black?

>>12640226
>The author, Samuel Delany, admitted that he wrote the novel as a pornographic fantasy for himself and his homosexual lover. He further admitted that they masturbated each other to scenes that he'd written.
Source?

>>12640226 is right that Delany is a hack who's praised because he's a gay mulatto. Dhalgren, Delany's most acclaimed work, is a plodding mess. If you desperately want social commentary sci-fi then read Ursula K. Le Guin or Robert A. Heinlein instead.

>>12642807
Midwits:
>Ursula K. Le Guin or Robert A. Heinlein
Patricians:
>Sameul R. Delany

>>12642856
Delany is sci-fi for homosexuals who are too insecure to admit they like genre fiction. He's a hack and you're a pseud.

>>12642958
Crying?

>>12642968
Gay?

>>12642958
You sound like a bitch. Delaney must therefore be quite ok. Gonna check him out now, thx.

>>12642984
ProbleM?

>>12643008
Enjoy 800+ pages of boredom and gay sex.
>>12643014
AIDS?

>>12642742
He has none. I’ve searched far and wide. Just inflammatory homophobic nonsense.

>>12643035
>if it doesn't exist on the internet, its not real

The interview ran in a journal around the time of the book's publication by Black Ice in 1996. If I remember correctly, it was conducted by Dennis Cooper. You can doubt this all you like, but a quick gloss of those authors' positions on "unrestricted sex" is telling.

The book was written around the early 60s and 70s, when child pornography was sold semi-openly in pre-Disneyfied Times Square. It was the heyday of pornographic novels. Gay subculture hadn't yet been sanitized and controlled. If you think Delany wasn't beating off to his sadistic gay kiddie porn fantasies, you're either naive or delusional

>>12642338
have you ever read Hogg? it's actually good. reads a bit like Burroughs

>>12643286
I could only stomach about 30 pages. The book isn't literature; it's pornography that involves endless child rape, child slavery, shit-eating, etc. I skimmed various sections ahead. I read the ending. But please try defending the value of books like this. Defend why a man who writes these books is right to be celebrated. Defend a culture that raises him to prominence over others.

>>12643421
I take it you've never read Burroughs then...

>>12640226
sounds based af, into the backlog it goes

>>12643429

I'm waiting for your defense of a culture that extols this type of writing. How do books that joyously describe children being gang raped, tortured, and murdered ennoble a people? Or are they just there to destroy, dehumanize, debase, confuse, disgust, and titillate the perverse? If they're only meant to draw us deeper into the blackness of nihilism, admit it.

>>12643508
I'm not a massive pseud so I don't look at art through utilitarian lenses; I could care less what it was "meant to do".

>>12643530
>thinking that was an attack on the basis of "utility"

Confirmed for an absolute moron. Still waiting

>>12643530
That's not an utilitarian angle, but didactic.
Whatever, it's still retarded.

i want to read it, sounds rad

>>12643561
any effect art has on culture is a consequence of the art, fucking obviously it was a utilitarian attack; don't tell me you're illiterate too.

>>12643568
if you are asking yourself "how much harm will this do society?" you are dealing in utilitarian logic

>>12643579
>>12643585

Utilitarianism is slippery nonsense. In terms of these books, a case could be made that they serve society by offering a "safe" outlet to those with a predisposition to sadistic pedophilia. Even if a trolley diagram proves that this is the case, I'd still be opposed to it.

My argument against Delany has nothing to do with his book's utility, and everything to do with its place and function within contemporary culture. What does it mean that he's lauded by the establishment? What does this signify? Is it indicative of a culture that's rotten through with decadence and perversion?

>>12643651
>My argument against Delany has nothing to do with his book's utility, and everything to do with its place and function within contemporary culture.
Retard alert

>>12643651
I have to ask, do you rally against the Odyssey for it's role in promoting misogyny too? What about the Bible promoting slavery? What's a safe book I can read without hurting other people?

>>12643855

I have to ask, why do you defend a novel that pornographically depicts child rape?

What culture would defend a man who writes this? What culture would laud him for doing so?

>>12644009
Good riddance to the Symposium, the Greeks are off limits now. You know people read Lewis Carrol to children? Degenerates.

>>12644071
>>12643855
>>12643846
>>12643576
>>12643530
>>12643436
lol white knighting for a gay pedo pseud

>>12642338

How does it promote what it depicts? Isn’t it preferable to write about these horrible things to exorcise them, rather than bottling them up and exploding some day and actually doing these base actions?

Have you never had intrusive immoral thoughts?

>>12643855
yeah op, what gives? this novel sounds like a perfect fit for my wife's son's book group

triggered moralcucks go back to tumblr.net

ITT: fags sticking up for a 300 pound gay black gandalf who writes about little boys getting ass raped

never change /lit/

>>12644291
>nhw81taywx911.png
go back

>>12644273
triggered LGBT white knights go back under the queensborough bridge

>>12644175

Whether it promotes what it depicts is immaterial. The point that I keep making is this: What culture celebrates authors who write works where young boys and girls are continuously raped, forced to eat shit, and murdered? Is that something a healthy culture would promote?

None of Delany's defenders have yet answered this. Why? What's the problem?

>>12644295
>heh that got em

>>12644361

The culture does not celebrate this work, though. He is mostly celebrated for other works.

I'm a trans woman who sleeps with men. I'm reading up on this novel and I genuinely can't understand why someone would write something which is just about endless child rape, let alone that someone would read it.

Like I understand using elements of taboo and shock but this is just pointless. Reminds me of ''ass goblins of auchwitz''

>>12644445
go back

>>12644445
works like delany's helped open a path for you to be the beautiful creature you are today. thank him.

>>12644490

How did a work about child rape help trans women at all?

>>12644506
works like delany's means every book that had a coloured in it and some of those probably led to transexuality, anyone got a good YouTube vid on this?

>>12644525

this is a reach anon

>>12644506
it opened peoples minds about all the possibilities related to sex and sexuality, and how we have to be free in our desires. don't be so closed minded. your whole persona is built on books like hogg whether you know it or not. who you are is all about what kind of sex you like, and opening this desire to the world without shame. without authors like delany to break the old culture, the culture we enjoy now wouldnt be possible.

>>12644541
kys stalinigger

>>12644548
>the culture we enjoy now wouldnt be possible

>>12644419

The establishment culture may not celebrate Hogg, but it doesn't condemn Delany for writing it.

On the other hand, the establishment goes out of its way to defame writers like Lovecraft, to name one popular example. They use his racists works to do so.

Again, the focus of my criticism is on the literary establishment.

Imagine asking a critic from NYRB to name the more "problematic" writer: Delany or Lovecraft. Is there any doubt which they would choose?

>>12644646
so your saying we have to choose between a guy who writes about dudes that assfuck baby boys and a guy who named his cat niggerman

hold on this is going to take me a second

>>12644578
Your meme sucks.

>>12644736
>t. proud and loud member of the LGBT defense brigade :^)

>>12644752
umm your post isn't about memes why did you use a meme arrow :-?

When did soccer moms start posting on 4chan?
>I could only stomach about 30 pages! My heart almost gave out!

>>12644944
A book about the fetishistic abuse of children as pornography is not akin to finding out someone was concealed carrying at a Safeway.

>>12643508
>How do books that joyously describe children being gang raped, tortured, and murdered ennoble a people?
With good writing.

tipper gore please go

>>12644361
>What culture celebrates authors who write works where young boys and girls are continuously raped, forced to eat shit, and murdered? Is that something a healthy culture would promote?
If this work was "promoted", then
1. it would be much more popular with audiences (instead of being a fairly obscure book that had a small cult-following)
2. since it would be more popular with audiences, there would be more books with writing like it (instead of works of degeneracy dissapearing after the beats)
What I'm saying is, shut the fuck up. You don't know what you are talking about.

>>12645601

Promotion of an author by the New York literary establishment doesn't necessarily lead to popularity among a broad readership. In fact, today it rarely does. (See Rowling vs. Ferrante, e.g.)

If you read the thread, you'll see that my attack is against the current literary establishment. There's no question that they promote Delany. Hogg may not be one of his popular works, but it's never been used to question his standing.

Given its content, why is this? Why instead do they attack authors for a host of other reasons: sexism, racism, etc.? In other words, in an era where fiction is torn apart for ideological reasons, why is a book like Hogg conveniently overlooked?

We all know the answer to this. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being disingenuous. It's telling that nobody defending Delany has been able to answer.

>>12645601
>conveniently overlooked
it's incredibly controversial, only edgy fucks like Ballard praise it openly

>>12645727
This book isn't promoted idiot. I've answered you. Nobody knows this fucking obscure book other than authors like based ballard as >>12645745 said and burroughs. Hogg itself is one of the most irrelevant out of the true degenerate collection like naked lunch (which had an amazing handle on slang and prose so dense that it was marked as Joycean) and crash (Ballard's prediction that we will use technology to fulfill our unfulfilled desires).

With that being said, Delaney himself is promoted, and if you want to know what that is, it is because he is gay and edgy. And what type of culture supports gayness and edgyness? One striving by any means to be ahead of its time.

>>12645894
>what
why*

>>12643508
>joyously describe

i think you're deliberately exaggerating there.