/lit/ - Literature

>>12627900
Reduce ALL suffering

Increase unnecessary suffering

>>12627900
produce unnecessary suffering

>thinking suffering is reducible
This is how you know you're talking to a utilitarian brainlet

Those who hide from any inconvenient suffering hate life and will get their hands cut off

>>12627900
>Suffering is a product of deterministic causes like all else in life
>There's no point you dilluding yourself into thinking you can reduce it
>Have a shekel for your troubles though

deduce unnecessary suffering
>and love it

Define "unnecessary".

>>12627911

Clean up your room and stop telling lies!

>>12627920
The argument between these six would be priceless

Duce: suffering necessary

>>12627909
My nigga

Do we have to recycle the necessary suffering then? Because I can get behind that, but not landfill.

>>12627911
Life is defined by the struggle against suffering, in the fleeting moments when we are free of our animalistic needs and able to be in the higher realm.

>>12627930
Soyuz nerushimy respublik svobonyk

Which is better? You have ten people, suffering goes from 1 to 10
>two of them have maximal suffering of 10, rest of them are at 1
or
>all ten of them are suffering at 3
in the first group, the summary of all suffering is 28, while in the second group it's 30. So in the first group the overall suffering is lower at the expense of two extreme sufferers

I believe this is the gist of all political arguments

>>12627998
You're assuming you can just add them like that
maybe one guy suffering at 10 is worth much more than two guys suffering at 5

>>12627904
based

>>12627900
peterstein got btfo by benatar in a debate regarding this subject

>>12627998

It's Okay as long as the 10s are white males.

>>12628001
Yeah maybe the suffering scale is non-linear like the hardness scale.

Also i think if you could rate suffering at a scale from 1-10 we are all at least at 1

>>12627998
The answer is second. The first scenario falls apart upon analysis
>2 people experiencing extreme suffering, 8 are in near-bliss
A) Assuming the group of 8 is composed of moral human beings capable of empathy who know about their situation, it's a logical paradox - these people couldn't possibly experience bliss knowing that two humans are paying for it with extreme torment. A is impossible
B) Assuming the group of 8 is composed of immoral, sociopathic humans who don't care, it's easy to rule out against them deserving any state of bliss.
C) Assuming the group of 8 is composed of moral human beings capable of empathy who DONT know about their situation, it's a moral paradox - the blissful state of a larger group is predicated upon a malicious lie, undermining the very value of their bliss. C is thus also impossible.

>post Peterson on /lit/
>get replies
If you don't like him just sage instead of complaining about it. First page threads are always trash.

>>12627900
How to be the best wage slave

>>12627904
>to marry means to halve ones rights and double ones duties
>implying minimizing one's duties is desirable
>we forfeit three quarters of our freedoms to be like other people
Sounds like choosing to use your freedoms in a particular way. "You're using your freedom the wrong way, REEE!"

>>12627904

Honestly how the fuck was on man so based

>>12627904
Who is that?

>>12628459
schopenhauer

>>12627904
wait, can someone PLEASE reply to the other people saying who this is? I want to know, and I can't google the quotes, lol (because im lazy)

Embrace all suffering

"If anything agreeable offers itself to your senses, yet does not at the same time tend purely to the honor and glory of God, renounce it and separate yourself from it for the love of Christ, who all his life long had no other taste or wish than to do the will of his Father whom he called his meat and nourishment. For example, you take satisfaction in HEARING of things in which the glory of God bears no part. Deny yourself this satisfaction, mortify your wish to listen. You take pleasure in SEEING objects which do not raise your mind to God: refuse yourself this pleasure, and turn away your eyes. The same with conversations and all other things. Act similarly, so far as you are able, with all the operations of the senses, striving to make yourself free from their yokes.
"The radical remedy lies in the mortification of the four great natural passions, joy, hope, fear, and grief. You must seek to deprive these of every satisfaction and leave them as it were in darkness and the void. Let your soul therefore turn always:

"Not to what is most easy, but to what is hardest;
"Not to what tastes best, but to what is most distasteful;
"Not to what most pleases, but to what disgusts;
"Not to matter of consolation, but to matter for desolation rather;
"Not to rest, but to labor;
"Not to desire the more, but the less;
"Not to aspire to what is highest and most precious, but to what is lowest and most contemptible;
"Not to will anything, but to will nothing;

"Not to seek the best in everything, but to seek the worst, so that you may enter for the love of Christ into a complete destitution, a perfect poverty of spirit, and an absolute renunciation of everything in this world.

>>12627930
"Fascism conceives of life as a struggle in which it behooves a man to win for himself a really worthy place, first of all by fitting himself (physically, morally, intellectually) to become the implement required for winning it. As for the individual, so for the nation, so for mankind."
"The fascist disdains an 'easy' life."

>>12627900
Astoundingly basic bitch statement from a basic bitch
Has there ever been a better example of the stupid persons smart person?

>>12628471
>>12628468

>>12627900
Beat your children

>>12628018
>peterstein got btfo by benatar
Link

>>12627911
Agreed. Suffering is not only a perspective but inherent to life.

>>12627911
yes it is retardo, because experience of suffering varies between people

>>12628468
>>12628471
>being underage

>>12627911
It is reduced as much as as -5 +5 equates to zero, even if both exist their impact nullify each other.

>>12627900
E N H A N C E
>Our age is essentially one of understanding and reflection, without passion, momentarily bursting into enthusiasm, and shrewdly relapsing into repose. ... There is no more action or decision in our day than there is perilous delight in swimming in shallow waters.

this man is a walking tautology. sage etc

>>12629110
https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-renegade-report/jordan-b-peterson-david-fRLlin8TGah/

>>12627900
Make all forms of suffering necessary and unavoidable.

>>12628492
you

>>12627900
Sounds like Hedonism to me, boy.

All suffering is necessary

>>12631238
Mandate suffering

>>12627911
>>12627900
Suffering is an illusion. The only legitimate suffering comes from lacking basic food and existential contemplation. ALL other suffering is relative and a trick of one’s mentality; monks in Tibet, for instance, are capable of completely shutting down the receptors for pain through specialized training, and thusly it would be absurd to claim a monk is “suffering” when they commit acts that would normally cause tremendous pain in people (such as lighting themselves on fire).

Fuck utilitarians.

>>12631239
It already is. No sentient being in the universe escapes it. The Buddhist try but there's reason to be sceptical about the success stories.

Everything necessary is suffering... and that's a good thing!

>>12631263
I'm not and one day I'll prove it to myself.

>>12631263

This doesn't mean it's necessary.

>>12627900
harm based morality the most pleb morality of all

>>12631493
Actuality and necessity are identical.

>>12627900
What do you do when you negate the negation? Is ~~n == n?

>>12628478
What a magnificent belief system to use to control the great, unwashed masses. Keep them poor, powerless, and miserable. Then claim that is the only way to enter the afterlife. All the while, the master class reaps all the rewards of the sacrifices made by those under their power.
The only way to live as a free person is to always question authority, and tell them "FUCK YOU"!

>>12627900
suffer

Who here Epicurus?

>>12631197
Nobody thinks I'm smart tho

>>12628095
>A) Assuming the group of 8 is composed of moral human beings capable of empathy who know about their situation, it's a logical paradox - these people couldn't possibly experience bliss knowing that two humans are paying for it with extreme torment. A is impossible
Not true. Countless examples throughout history, all the ones need to do is label the tens as "inhuman" or "untouchables" and boom, problem solved
B) Assuming the group of 8 is composed of immoral, sociopathic humans who don't care, it's easy to rule out against them deserving any state of bliss.
Now you're just making a contradictory normative statement. I thought it was the highest good to reduce suffering? Now you want to increase it overall because of a contradictory deontological ethical statement
C) Assuming the group of 8 is composed of moral human beings capable of empathy who DONT know about their situation, it's a moral paradox - the blissful state of a larger group is predicated upon a malicious lie, undermining the very value of their bliss. C is thus also impossible
Now you're literally arguing for deontology, you're saying that its bad by nature of being a lie, even though telling the truth creates more suffering.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that actions are good or bad based on the actions alone, which is in direct contradiction to your consequentialist ethics you think you hold. You're literally arguing that suffering should be increased to adhere to fundamental moral principles.

>>12627900
Suffering is the only way for progress to be made. Maximal suffering destroys man and renews him. Seek out damnation, and the abyss.

>>12629110

https://youtu.be/Un35T2TQ0EY

>>12631186
>David is a proponent of antinatalism, which posits that birth is an overall negative event and as such it follows that humans should stop procreating.
I mean, I'm no fan of Peterstein, but you should lose by default for having such a cucked philosophy

>>12631186
>randomly jump to ~54:00
>The antinatalist guy get blown the fuck out

I'm sure Peterson got stomped, anon.

>bearing your cross actually means taking responsibility and becoming useful to capitalism by maximizing your chances for employment
thanks memerson

>>12632964
>>12633030
t. investarios

>>12627904
I know this is schoppenhaur,but what books are these quotes taken from?