/lit/ - Literature

>>12476304
You are a depressed 22 year old Peterson fanatic

/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc. If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/.

>>12476304
I have a little pocket Aquinas book I like to read
Also like TBK

I think that's it, Im not Christian

Here's some of my favorites lads. Would appreciate recs:
Aurora by Boehme
The Imitation of Christ
Philosophical Selections by Malebranche
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius
Either/Or by Kierkegaard
The Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ by St. Maximus the Confessor
Confessions by St. Augustine
Collected Works of St. John of the Cross

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bQmMFQzrEsc
every thread until this shit stops.

>>12476304
The Interior Castle and The away of Perfection by St. Teresa de Avila

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and Other Puritan Sermons by Jonathan Edwards

>>12476434
>atheism
Can't think of a more intellectually dishonest worldview

Tolstoy:
The kingdom of God is within you
What I believe

CS Lewis:
Narnia
Space trilogy
Mere Christianity
The great divorce
Screwtape letters

Les Miserables
The Silver Chalice

>>12476434
>YouTube
Physically cringed

Practicing the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence

>>12476317
Yikes

>The Cloud of Unknowing

Thinking of this as well. Is it good?

>>12477211
It's special, that's for sure. You should read it mate

I'd like to attend a Catholic church. How do i find a good one? Live in Australia btw.

>>12476493
>>12476511
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmyu5kfa80

I am in the right and you and your cult are wrong

there is FAR more evidence disproving christianity than the "evidence" for it. you people have shitted up this board for too long and it's time for the larp to stop.

>>12477718
Cringe

>>12477718
edgy

>>12477731
>>12477736
try actually refuting the mounds of evidence that prove your religion is a hoax anytime, k thx.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3UmLJ9hfH0k

>>12477761
post some about how exodus didn't happen

>>12477702
Find and ask either 'The Patriarchy' or Bishop Richard Umbers. They are both based in emuland. Good luck anon

>>12477718
>you people have shitted up this board for too long
Some of the best, wholesome threads are unironically the /Christlit/ threads. Try to lurk the next time one is made.
Now go be an atheist warrior in other threads, where your presence might actually be justified. All the best

>>12477761
>>12477718
>>12476434
>>12476317
>>12476321
Everyone is talking about books except you. Mere Christianity, The Problem of Pain, the Four Loves and the Screwtape letters are great. Obvious recommendations, I know, I'm just trying to balance out replying to shitposts.

Can someone explain to me what Gerard Hopkins meant by Inscape? I’ve read into it a bunch of times but can’t fully understand

>>12476317
The sad and feeble attempt of the pseud to bring the conversation back into his wheelhouse

>>12476304
Don't really fit the question, but:
>C.S. Lewis "The Screwtape Letters"
Liked that

If it counts:
>Dostojewski "The brothers Karamasow"

>>12476434
>youtube videos
Cringe. Read some fucking books

>>12476304
Anything by Charles Spurgeon. Profound insight into 1800's Reformed Baptist Christianity that modern protestants have practically forgotten and replaced with superficial "Churchianity." Highly recommended literature for anyone wanting to learn more about this little piece of culture and history.

>>12478253
I guarantee I read more than you.

maybe you should try and catch up. you can start with pic related

>>12476434
basically every scholar of ancient history with any knowledge on the topic (even the non-christian scholars) agree upon the existence of the historical Jesus. Richard Carrier is the exception.

>>12478268
>guarantee
A rather bold word, for someone whose first instinct is to link a youtube video on a literature board. I "GUARANTEE" that you haven't even read the books you post. You just heard about them from youtube videos!

>>12476304
Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton. Intimidating depth sometimes but it's only 5 hours to listen to on audio, free on youtube. Just finished it today.

The Book of Mormon unironically
Fake Christians on suicide watch

>>12478268
Richard Carrier doesn't even believe the historical Jesus existed. I've read enough theology and history to completely oppose that view.

>>12478164
Can't really give you any more than what the wiki says anon
>>12477679
Thank you anon.

>>12478351
>Richard Carrier doesn't even believe the historical Jesus existed.
he didn't.

pic related and a library worth of other books demonstrate this. if more of the larpers on here actually familiarized themselves with this literature it would make this board a much better place

Are there any good writings in favor of nontrinitarianism? I really want to hear how a nontrinitarian would have responded to the arguments of Tertullian etc..

there are people reading this thread (right now) that actually take christ mysticism seriously

>>12478388
Have you read any of the critiques of David Fitzgerald's work?

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2011/05/nailed-ten-christian-myths-that-show.html

>>12476304
>2015+4
>Worshipping a dead kike on a stick

>>12477702
Don't bother. Catholic churches in Oz are all ethnic enclaves. perhaps they will tolerate your presence, bu you as a white unmarried male are not welcome there

Lord of the World

>>12478643
You spent a lot of money on books that will never be read.

>>12478643
Beautiful

>>12478653
As long as he reads it then what's the issue?
>>12478534
There are probably a few, but if you look at the kinds of denominations that follow this then it's best you find an author that is biased against it.

Sayings of the desert fathers, read it if you haven't and you consider yourself a christian
>>12478534
That's heresy, don't waste time in useless texts

>>12478645
Elaborate anon

>>12477211
yes, specially if you feel vocation for the contemplative life, it's basically a practical way of praying; a prayer that goes beyond ideas and images. It's a progressive emptying, it does not pretend to approach God through objective and conceptual knowledge but trough laying out a "cloud of unknowing" in our thoughts; it doesn't mean having thoughts is bad, you can never make them go away, it means to allay them out, ignore them, quietly

>>12476434
>>12477718
>>12478268
>>12478388
>christ mythers

>>12478552
>>12478635
I'll pray for you anons, its never too late

>>12476304
Anyone have thoughts on the new Ravi Zacharias book?

There is absolutely no empirical evidence to prove God is real, and I doubt that non-empirical evidence can ever go beyond theories. The concepts of omnipotence and omniscience themselves are impossible.

>>12480668
> no empirical evidence to prove reality as a whole is real

>>12476500
>>12478106
'Mere Christianity' is hands down the worst philosophy book I have ever read. I am an agnostic and I hate fedora posters as much as the next man but CS is just embarrassing.
>Humans everywhere have a universal sense of morality ergo God exists.
>Either Christ was mad, lying, or telling the truth.
It actually disappointed and upset me but the more actual Christian theology I read the more I start to get the feeling that Russell, Hitchens and Dawkins, despite being massive pseuds, have a point. The emperor really does have no clothes and God/theology really is all indefensible rubbish.

>>12480686
>reality as a whole can’t exist without god

I have a question for you Christians. How do you explain how all the animals fit on noahs arc? And stories of the like. Not trying to be an ass, I'm just intrigued. Because of how implausible it is, I thought it may actually be a test in your faith, because jesus talks so much about blind faith and leaving reason behind in most cases

>>12481930
noah's ark is in the hebrew bible, way to be anti-semitic u alt-right lil nazi shit

Any good sources for acquiring pdfs?

>>12476304
Not Christian, but would you guys please mind giving me some beautiful Christian music? I've heard some gorgeous hymns before, whose names I don't know of, and I'd like to hear more. Here's an example:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gVRWYKHWrIQ

I like the humming at the start, and the "trott to toya trot tooo" later one. Can you send stuff that has such a vibe?

Please just give me transcendent Christian music.

>>12476304
The Pilgrims Progress is the best Christian book ever written
>papists BTFO

>>12478262
Spurgeon was a heretic

Has there every been any serious literature trying to argue for the rejection of Pauline theology? I cannot in good faith reconcile the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus. Some of what Paul writes in his epistles are fundamentally incompatible with what Jesus specifically singles out for teaching, which leads me to believe that Paul of Tarsus is either bullshit, or worse, intentionally malicious. I have seen some very poor attempts of rejection on random websites, and I have seen at least one that was (mostly) logical with it's conclusions, but they seem to fall short of what I feel is a definitive argument for rejection. On the other hand, refutations of a 'Paul rejection' have likewise been poor, almost always relying on the supposed authority of the writings as justification of why anything he wrote is, well, authoritative.

>>12482883
You are the worse sort of dilettante there is.
You want to play at being so above the "ordinary" christian because that's just too boring and simple for you so in your pride you get hysterical and think you're an expert after reading a handful of blogs spouting newage YouTube-university bullshit like this Pauline/Yeshua christianity dichotomy, apparently completely forgetting the CENTURIES of councils and rigorous theological investigations by theologians so infinitely superior to you in ever possible way who established and accepted the New Testament canon and therefore obviously consent to what Paul is saying.
But you and your newage pseudo-theosophist faggots can't be content unless there's a shitstorm of drama and conspiracies and secret doctrines and so you make totally fucking clueless posts like this that are an insult to centuries of ecclesiastical institutions, martyrs, and the holy scripture itself, all while feigning a more sublime honesty and need for truth than others. It's nothing but reheated gnosticism.
Fuck yourself.

>>12478351
Genuinely curious, but what books/readings helped developed that view?
I'm agnostic interested in learning more about Christianity.

>2015+4
>Worshipping a dead kike on a stick

>>12482390
Here you go anon. These should be to your liking as well. They are some of my personal favourites
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T25bMmLzdYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG5gEzymh5c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6j-ozdrWpQ

>>12482392
*The way of a pilgrim

Worshipping a dead kike on a stick in 2019

>>12483485
tippin on fedos in 2019

>>12476304
My name is Wharton Wiggler.

>>12482390
I'm not christian anymore but this is the music I like to play from time to time
https://open.spotify.com/track/0RXvDEnCfJvxnnN2k3a49f?si=s-z3bif2S0CfdijlG84zxQ
https://open.spotify.com/track/1DCT1J4hriWOk5HHc8AQQJ?si=8TtGApZ8QSmohzu0kMH7zg
https://open.spotify.com/track/0xmyzDblNF2iyiQTdGtG9u?si=mvYLMn8NTGqRdL1gm-Bg3g
https://open.spotify.com/track/7iZMNuXI373mqK57RUc0Ca?si=FY-3_wV3RQ6423H7r-9UXQ
https://open.spotify.com/track/2hcUKFMROhCckDzLWy09Jr?si=J5y0p0qCT1CpSeqtAFeFkQ
https://open.spotify.com/track/5Gq2AZQTAapS7tXoQn2SpA?si=G8kYbfvdRNmRjd9YZEGcKw
https://open.spotify.com/track/4Yvwmzuxvs3rwxjSB14CTq?si=26-qTU9FR7WgcyjVjpbsLg

>>12479010
Thank you anon

>>12482949
Not him, but he is right, anon? There are many things dubious regarding Paul's precepts and the tenuous connections, or direct contradictions, which they have to Christ's own doctrine. And regarding councils, remember that Paul was the one who proselytized to many, and could therefore have naturally had his own interpretations seem canonical to those he himself brought into the fold. Also, like you said yourself, these councils took place HUNDREDS of years after the time of Christ and of Paul, and therefore they'd have no connecgion to the original figures involved. Their approval of something they were merely the late benefactors of, is not a signal for confidence on the question of Paul's validity.

>>12483309
'The historical figure of Jesus' by E. P. Sanders was pretty good. He's a New Testament Scholar with a good reputation.

Just remember that there are thousands of these books, many worse than others, so be sure to research the author to make sure he has a reputation that isn't bible-thumping. The image has many good reads.

>>12483739
The Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit and preached divine revelation, this is Christianity full stop. You are a tepid secular.

>>12476317
>>12476321
>>12476434

>>12482390
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9Hres93mBs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncckxAjp8uY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJqSEyTBBCw

>>12483882
The last one is really meditative. Love them all though

>>12477702
Join a based sedevacantist church

>>12484160

>when ur trying to be good but that shoulder devil has your left ear

>>12484181

They had one of those up the hill from my old hometown. It's broken up lately. Good.

Fucking chrisrcucks get out of my board

being an atheist is preferable to using Christianity as a fashion accessory, you're all fucking dishonest as fuck

>>12478969
Talk to some priests and you will see, strangely they will discourage you from joining.

One priest told me they want older people who have money , not someone like me who will sit up the back analysing everything. I interpreted that as meaning someone like me who is dissatisfied with life and looking for meaning in religion won't contribute anything to their church materially and my asking hard questions would just be annoying to people who aren't asking those kind of questions.

And also theres basically no white people who go to these churches. You have nothing in common with everyone else there.

>>12478969
>>12484746
I'm not from Australia but even if it is like this, you should go; part of following Jesus is carrying his cross, if they kick you out of the church, be sad and pray for them for they not know the ways of the Lord.
And among all these money focused priests he talks about, there might be one who wants to help people.
If doing the right thing scandalizes people, you're on the right path

>>12484785
That was years ago, I've had to reconsider my interest in Catholicism and now I see that it's pretty obvious nonsense.

>>12476304
I was going to make my own thread but I’ll ask it here. Does anyone know of any good books about the history of the formation of the Bible- how the books we have became canon etc?

How come no one has recommended some Bernanos yet? Under the Sun of Satan and Diary of a Country Priest are great.
>>12477702
Which part of Australia? You generally find good ones from hearing from other Catholics so following some FB groups could work.
>>12478645
As a single male Australian Catholic, I have absolutely no clue what this anon is on about. Maybe depends on where you are, I guess.

>>12484746
Sounds like bullshit.

>>12484895
Sounds like you've never been to church

>>12477702
Perhaps check up your local diocese website. If you don't know the name of your diocese, just check out the link:
https://en (dot) wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Australia#Organisation

>>12484746
>And also theres basically no white people who go to these churches.
Even if it were tru, so what?

>>12484841
Were you born into it?

>>12484916
I gave you the reason in the next sentence.

Are there any alternatives to the KJV for the OT?
I've recently found Lattimore for the NT, and I'm really enjoying it. I just want something that is more suited to casual reading that doesn't suck like seemingly ever other translation.

>>12476304
Just got "The Everlasting Man" by GK Chesterton. Pretty good.

>>12484926
This?
>You have nothing in common with everyone else there.
Again, so what? Faith is about salvation, relating to God, leading good lifestyles... Communities are always welcome, but it is not inherent to religious practice

>>12484918
Yes but I never took it seriously and I left the faith pretty quick because no one in the family was really all that into its rules and specific beliefs. Started going back a couple of years ago (now at a completely different parish far away) and for a long time, it's been a lonely experience. Much better now though. The culture is still new and weird to me.
>>12484938
You can always find a community or group somewhere, especially with the help of the internet. It's not as hopeless as people think it is.

>>12484934
You read the man who was thursday by him? Absolutely brilliant.

>>12484957
That's different from someone who never had anything to do with it and wants to convert.

>>12484841
>>12484916
I'm from Sydney. Its really just curiosity, want to learn more about my heritage and etc.
Kind of experienced the utility of "prayer" and I feel like i have at least something to learn from it all.

>>12484999
Of course it's different. To most people in the parish, I'm just another catholic man no.934596 who just showed up one day. People, in my experience, are really friendly and open with new converts. They want to hear why you decided to convert and what your journey was like. They won't be turning you away because you're a single white guy. I've never even heard or read of that happening until this thread.
And like I said, there are plenty of good groups out there who would be more than happy to take on or help anyone looking to convert.

>>12485083
Nice, are you in uni? It won't be a bad idea to attend one properly done NO mass (it's what I usually attend) but jumping into TLM is good too since their parish would probably be better. Saint Mary's Cathedral has Latin Mass and it's generally good with NO. Saint Benedict's at Broadway is good too. Saint Michael at Belfield is small but it's a nice parish that also offers TLM. I can vouch for the Capuchin Friars at St Fiacre in Leichardt. Also, Maternal Heart of Mary at Lewisham is pretty much the place for TLM in Sydney iirc. I'm sure there are a lot of other good places but since I haven't been there personally, I won't be able to say much. Here's a link for churches that offer in TLM in Australia.
http://lmsaus.org/mass-directory/

>>12480740
I don't about later theology, but the earliest church fathers were unironic brainlets. Justin Martyr misquotes the Bible (1st Apology 41, compare Ps 96:1-11), accepts apocryphal writings as genuine (1st Apology 20, 35), and misunderstands and misquotes Plato (1st Apology 60, compare Timaeus 36c; 2nd Apology 10; compare Timaeus 28c). He says God and Jesus are separate (2nd Apology 13, Dialogue 56, 58, 60) and equates Jesus with the Holy Spirit (1st Apology 33). He teaches nothing close to trinitarianism. Catholics love to wank him off as "the first great apologist" while actually disagreeing with nearly everything he taught. Ignatius of Antioch had a psychotic fixation on violent martyrdom and deliberately travelled to Rome to be arrested and killed in the arena, he even instructs his followers to force him to go if he changes his mind later (see his letter to the Romans). He also says slaves shouldn't be freed using church funds, because that might make them sinful (Ignatius to Polycarp 4:3). Theophilus also quotes apocrypha (To Autolycus 2.3, 9, 31, 36) badly misreads Homer as saying there were no pre-flood cities, actually Homer just says Troy didn't exist before the flood (To Autolycus 2.30, compare Iliad 20.216). As part of his apologetics he constructs an elaborate timeline which takes Genesis literally and uses Greek myths as sources (To Autolycus 3.20ff). I could go on and on.

>>12485088
They won't turn you away, but they don't care about you either.

>>12482390
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KxMc_tyQBo&ab_channel=TheTabernacleChoiratTempleSquare
Start with this video first, and have a Godly time.

>>12484704
No. Just human and sinful.

>>12486735
isnt that so convenient

>>12481930

This question is integral to the story. The ONLY Teleology of the Flood is Noah obeying God despite being an exemplary man. Note that God simply calls it off when even the tragicomedy of Noah floating on an otherwise devastated Earth, under the pretense of divine justice, doesn't make him question anything, not even after returning to the initial state of affairs. Noah remains obstinate in his agnosticism, making his exemplary status tenuous. Free will relative to communion, communion relative to Henosis, nothing is learned by force, rhizomatic causality, etc.

>>12484966
No I just started on Chesterton. My mother loves father brown though

>>12487691
francis sucks in his own way, but its nothing unexpected, paul6 and jp2 were 100x worse theologically wise, but they didnt have his talent for speaking in leftist lingo so you didnt give a shit and now everyone is suddenly supposed to be a big christian agaisnt the "marxist pope" while for the last 50 years youve all been sucking dick to ecumenists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMo5R5pLPBE

>>12488374
Based and retardedpilled

no one posted the Divine Comedy nor Crime and punishment, or any Tolstoi books.

Shame on you heretics.

>>12478347
This. Read the Book of Mormon and pray to God of its truthfulness. If you are sincere you will receive an answer.

>>12476434

I've never bothered to listen to his arguments before but he seems even dumber than I thought. It is integral to Christianity that Jesus is against demonstration, and that his tangential demonstration only made people hate him.

>>12488374

I've never bothered to listen to his arguments before but he seems even dumber than I thought. It is integral to Christianity that Jesus is against demonstration, and that his tangential demonstration only made people hate him.

>>12488374
>>12490692

He's also an exemplary Anglo. He claims having no thought for tomorrow is "ridiculous" and "immoral" without saying why, instead invoking another dim Anglo's dim quip. Hiding his intellectual cowardice behind "common sense". Stupid bitch.

>>12489876
I did and God immediately showed me the same translation errors as in the KJV of those years.
And the horses, giraffes, steel...
God pretty much spelled it out to me: that book is bullshit.

>>12476434
reminder youtube is the new TV, you are not taking a ""redpill"", you are just being fed shit by retarded uneducated morons and taking it for granted

Summa Contra Gentiles

did anyone else get emotional reading chapter one of fear and trembling? As I was reading it, I was moved by how the faith of Abraham is explained not as submission but strength above all others.

>>12491127
K unironically saved me from going insane.
Thank you /lit/ for showing me his beautiful face.

>>12476434
Carrier is a dishonest binch, his views are extreme even among leftist textual critics

>>12482390
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVFhEgrIDoI

I personally believe this is the best hymn ever written, specifically when it is chanted AND NOT sung in a Western style choir.

>>12483739
>I swear bro Paul poisoned the entire church on his own!!1!
You sound like a Muslim.

>>12484200
sedevacantists should just join the orthodox church, they have already abandoned actual catholicism just like the actual catholic church has

>>12484704
Imagine being this mad that someone else believes in God and traditional morality. This is how leftists feel about us.

>>12484833
Which canon? Catholic? Protestant? Eastern Orthodox? Oriental Orthodox?

not a book, but Ezra Pound's poem The Ballad of the Goodly Fere is beautiful

>>12485205
Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria, and Irenaeus are all fine. Origen is easily the greatest intellectual the church ever produced. Your post reads like a copy-paste hit piece that is cherry picking mistakes or twisting things out of context.

>>12476304
The Ball and the Cross

>>12491689
No, I wrote it myself, the information comes from actually reading their writings, perhaps you should try the same.

>Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria, and Irenaeus are all fine
Lol no. If 1 Clement was written by Clement of Rome, he quotes lost apocryphal scripture (1 Clement 8:2-3, 17:6) the former is also quoted in a gnostic text (NHC II,6:135-136). He believes phoenixes are real (25:1-5), and misquotes the LXX version of Isaiah 60:17, adding the word faith which totally changes its meaning (42:5). Polycarp says Paul wrote multiple letters to the Phillipians (Polycarp to the Phillipians 3:2), either he was mistaken or the church lost some of Paul's letters, neither looks good for the church. Like I said, I can go on and on about issues with the fathers.

>>12491789
>he quotes lost apocryphal scripture which is also quoted in a gnostic text
How is this an issue at all?
>he believes phoenixes are real
Great, and it is used as an illustration. Who cares.
>adding the word faith to 60:17
διkαιοσύνῃ in this context denotes divine righteousness. The righteous live by faith. Faith is totally justifiable.
>polycarp says paul wrote multiple letters to the phillipians
Huh? Polycarp is referencing Philippians there, I don't think he ever mentions Paul writing more letters to them.

>>12480740
>>Humans everywhere have a universal sense of morality ergo God exists.
You're skipping several steps in the reasoning to make it seem silly. It's disingenuous.
>Either Christ was mad, lying, or telling the truth.
Assuming Jesus said the things the Gospel reported, what other possibilities are there aside from insanity, dishonesty, or divinity?

>>12482390
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjQQsNvsOs

>>12481930
I’ve never done the exact math myself, but we have the dimensions of the ark, and it struck me as being pretty massive in volume when I last sa. Given that we can have multiple breeds emerge within just a few generations, I don’t think it at all unlikely that the number of distinct species would be substantially lower than those today. From one pair of wolves could come all coyotes, jackals, and every breed of dog, etc. Makes the space issue much more reasonable.
Even putting that aside, there are plenty of miraculous elements to the story. Given that you’re talking about a borderline planetary-extinction-level event brought about by a deity who also miraculously guided two of every animal on earth, I don’t find it at all difficult to believe there was some TARDIS-esque magic going on there. Like how enough bread and fish was pulled from a basket to feed 5,000 people. Spacial distortion seems pretty low-level, and a strange thing to find issue with compared to the scope of the other stories in the OT.
>jesus talks so much about blind faith and leaving reason behind in most cases
At no point does he do that. He encouraged us to be cunning as serpents, and to love with all our mind.
You're taking the Mark Twain "Faith is believing what you know ain't so" definition and setting it up as what Christ meant 1800+ years before.

>>12491889
>How is this an issue at all?
Because he believed apocryphal works were scripture. Works that were also believed by gnostics.

>Great, and it is used as an illustration. Who cares.
Believing in spurious pagan mythological beings seems pretty poor form.

>διkαιοσύνῃ in this context denotes divine righteousness. The righteous live by faith. Faith is totally justifiable.
No, he keeps the word διkαιοσύνῃ, he changes εἰρήνῃ (peace) to πίστει (faith). The words are not semantically the same by any stretch.

See:

LXX
kαὶ δώσω τοὺς ἄρχοντάς σου ἐν εἰρήνῃ kαὶ τοὺς ἐπισkόπους σου ἐν διkαιοσύνῃ·
And I will appoint your rulers in peace and your overseers in righteousness.

Clement
Καταστήσω τους έπισkόπους αύτων έν διkαιοσύνn kαι τους διαkόνους αύτων έν πίστει.
I will appoint their overseers (=bishops) in righteousness and their deacons in faith

>Huh? Polycarp is referencing Philippians there, I don't think he ever mentions Paul writing more letters to them.
επιστολάς is plural "And when he was absent he wrote you letters."

>>12482390
My little brother recorded a pretty amazing Russian chant while visiting the oldest church in Russia, which you can hear at >>>/wsg/2604745
Bach insisted that every note he ever composed was to the glory of Christ. Some of my favorites of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFHXWoawnt0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9rZjlsyYY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ezpwCHtJs
Also a fan of Haruka Nakamura - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7TkK2joi4I
If you want something culturally closer, Come Thou Fount and Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel are great English songs. I like Chris Rice’s and Peter Hollen’s versions of each, respectively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjfToqk5w5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zshzkkD-NYA

>>12492028
>works that are also believed by gnostics
I don't see the issue, what about that reference is troubling to you?
>spurious pagan mythological beings seems pretty poor form
this isnt legitimate criticism. phoenixes were a popular symbol of the resurrection, and you have a lot of writers in the church using it to fit their theological points.
> he changes εἰρήνῃ (peace) to πίστει (faith)
Yeah, I confused myself looking at the text. It is still justifiable, nothing changes all that much. Pistis has connotations of fidelity and trust, and by extension peace. Sure, it isn't perfect, but it really doesn't >completely change the meaning
>Epistolas is plural
Yep, should've looked at the Greek, but I'm not super proficient so it's a pain in the ass to read through. I also looked at Strongs, and interpreting epistolas to mean a genre seems a bit strange, and some of the other explanations are weird. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if there are Pauline letters that are lost. I'm not sure this is something that would make me call Polycarp a brainlet.

I'd recommend eight chan christian for this kind of discussion. I know the guy who founded it if you want to meet him.

When I was younger, I really enjoyed Dark Night of the Soul.

Now, I think I might start reading some Barth (not a Catholic endorsed by a pope), Lefebvre, de Carvalho, Lonergan, and Bultmann (for the Heidegger)

Any reccs for Orthodox Greek works?

>>12492327

>>12484833
The Canon Debate

The Biblical Canon Lists from Early Christianity

>>12491698
?

>>12483828
Is this supposed to be a meme? What's wrong with that statement or atheism?

>>12493073
Is this supposed to be bait? What's right with that statement, or atheism?

Are there any Christian/Catholic books that name the Jew?

>>12493091
Literally any of them until 1968. We used to pray for the souls and conversion of "the perfidious Jew" at every mass. The deicide is a serious stain on the nation of Israel.

>>12493078
Atheism is based on rationalism and science. The statement is right because realizing that religion is for simpletons is the first step to enlightenment and becoming a man

>>12493123
>The statement is right because realizing that religion is for simpletons
Said on the feast day of Saint Thomas Aquinas, no less. Your being a brainlet is a pretty good excuse I guess. Go read philosophy books until you stop saying stupid shit online.

>>12492325
Well, I think that anon believes that he's quoting works that are not canon and believed by heretics. The implication then being that the scripture being quoted is heretical.

>>12481403
It's not that it can't; it's that it doesn't

>>12492325
So accepting apocryphal writings as scripture is fine? Why not accept 1 Enoch, the Sybilline Oracles and Clement's mystery apocrypha as part of the Bible? Pretending there's no issue is sticking your head in the sand.

>this isnt legitimate criticism. phoenixes were a popular symbol of the resurrection, and you have a lot of writers in the church using it to fit their theological points.
Clement says phoenixes are real and that people in Alexandria have seen them. He was gullible and believed in mythological animals, that's a legit criticism.

Yeah, I confused myself looking at the text. It is still justifiable, nothing changes all that much. Pistis has connotations of fidelity and trust, and by extension peace.
Isaiah 60 is about God installing rulers, not a parallel religious institution. Clement adds the words 'faith' and 'deacon' for it to support his point, which it doesn't otherwise. He literally changes scripture to back up his argument.

Yep, should've looked at the Greek, but I'm not super proficient so it's a pain in the ass to read through. I also looked at Strongs, and interpreting epistolas to mean a genre seems a bit strange, and some of the other explanations are weird. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if there are Pauline letters that are lost. I'm not sure this is something that would make me call Polycarp a brainlet.
Nice waffle about genre but he straight up says there were multiple letters. If he's right and was aware of more genuine Pauline letters, the church was grossly negligent in losing writings by an inspired author. Or, he was wrong, and either didn't know his own church's scriptures or accepted faked Pauline letters. I can already hear the apologetic responses "That doesn't matter to me, I still have faith", "Those aren't important anyway". You'll dogmatically believe no matter how many flaws in the church fathers are pointed out, I'm just pointing them out.

>>12493195
Enoch isn't canon and that is quoted in scripture.
>>12493397
>accepting apocryphal writings as scripture is fine?
Yeah, if it's a book like Tobit.
>Why not accept 1 Enoch
Jude references it, what's that say about Jude?
>Clement says phoenixes are real and that people in alexandria have seen them, he was gullible and believed in mythological animals
He was using a well known and famous creature as an illustration, whether or not he believed it existed is unimportant
>Isaiah 60 is about God installing rulers... he literally changes scripture to back up his argument
Still justifiable, and there is nothing wacky or crazy about reading bishops/deacons into rulers/overseers. It isn't dissimilar from Matthew using Hosea 11:1.
>if he was right the church was grossly negligent or he was wrong and didn't know his own church's scriptures or accepted faked Pauline letters
What about Colossians 4:16? That would've been lost by the Apostles themselves

What denomination are you anyways?

>>12476304
Story of a Soul - Therese of Lisieux. the Edmonson translation keeps all her ellipses and basic language intact
The autobiographical parts are charming (she went all the way to the Pope to ask for permission to join the Carmelites at a young age), and the spiritual advice is so modest and simple. The part about small birds getting distracted by baubles on the ground instead of staying close to the sun is especially great.
>"God gave me grace to know the world only enough to hold it in contempt and to remove myself from it."
>"My story is like a fairy tale turned prayer. I'm not making a piece of literature."

Garry Wills is a contemporary writer, classics student fluent in latin and greek, and life long Catholic. He translated all of Augustine's Confessions (which he calls a prayer to an audience of one, not an autobiography) as well has some commentary on specific books from it, but he's also written about the NT and his religion in a way that's meant to be read by anybody. His book about rosary is mainly about prayer and contemplation.

Flannery O'Conner has a prayer journal released, its super short though. I'm not sure if her collected letters have more of the same or not.

>>12491311
>>12491127
I tried to read The Concept of Anxiety and was just totally overwhelmed. I haven't read philosophy before. Ended up reading the journal snippets included in my edition (which I loved), and returned it back to the library.
Is his wikipedia article a good starting base before going back to it, is there some other Kierkegaard I should read first?

>>12494212
I'm agnostic. Citing similar problems in the new testament doesn't strengthen your defense.

Any Calvinists on this board? How do you reconcile election with practical life? I was raised Calvinist but lapsed after becoming super pessimistic about predestination

>>12482390
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq3UX8yIBZI this one is my favorite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q8i0CYs-CM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NtMCPmwtYI

>>12494375
You might find the Qur'an more to your tastes then

>>12482390
>Please just give me transcendent Christian music.
here you go fren
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o81A31hlgEA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wm4RlnnaOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTcxqKhKHQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIMr9E14iQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9TOhyK6nJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RyHFXoLnhs
Megaloschemos is transcendent for me

>>12494390
Calvinism is terrible and heretical

>>12494592
Based. Chant has completely destroyed my previous love for intracate western choral hymns. Unfortunately it has also destroyed any interest I had in Russian sacred music

>>12492385
> eight chan christian
dont go there. that board is the main reason why people lose faith

Thank you to everyone who gave me those pieces of music. Among them, I liked O Domine Jesu Christe the best. That's closest to what I was after. That angelic, higher-toned chorals. Can anyone please recommend me more, of that kind? Those which have higher-voices, not deep ones, and especially ones that strive not for solemnity, but for transcendence?

If you listen to my original song:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gVRWYKHWrIQ
At 3:44, there's a lovely heightening of intensity that followed a longer buildup towards it. Can you send me other pieces which have such kinds k
of "bass drops", to speak immaturely?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjQQsNvsOs
Here is O Domine btw.

Thanks again my frens.

>>12494593
Precisely how?

>>12494689
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiK8wHm4JGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdDHGtrunQQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feu2owd0MsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwFYUJb03d0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK7BNKVLC08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-EfW7gYzns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsLptc5fTxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7w60CMUovU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWguK9A8mkg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5RjPfusRNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjjszGWj50Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI2zpRz6qpY
https://www.youtube.com/user/Callixtinus/videos

>>12476304
I really like Revelation 7
>>12476317
DAS RITE

>>12494731
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/wp-content/uploads/sites/27/2012/10/Plucking-the-TULIP4.pdf
This is a decent overview. Sorry if I was hostile. I just despise Calvins theology >>12494853
MORE PRECIOUS THAN THE CHERUBIM MORE GLORIOUS THAN THE SERAPHIM

>>12494331
Either/Or

>>12492167
Erm, this happens to be a song from a neo-folk group called “Moon Far Away”. I haven't paid attention to the lyrics at first, but the melody and style were giveaways it's a folk song, not a church choral.

Take this composition (from an atheist) based on a melody of a well known Orthodox requiem instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXIltZCAaxE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtE3VozRymM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-XHIjuUFvo

There's some notes about it:
https://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.570527&catNum=570527&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English

and a shitty translation:

I
I'm going on unfathomable wayfaring
Walking between fear and hope
My vision went out, the breast is cold
Ears can't give heed, eyelids are closed

I'm laying silent and motionless
I don't hear brethren weeping
And blue smoke of a thurible
Streams incense to everyone but me

II
But while I'm in eternal sleep
My love doesn't die
With it I beseech you, brethren
Let each and every one pray God:
O God!..

III
…On the day the horn
Proclaims the end of the world
Accept your departed servant
Into your heavenly abode

>>12494588
Nice non-sequitor.

Misquoting Jesus and How Jesus Became God are both pretty great.

>>12495134
I can find no evidence that this is so. I've seen the video my brother took; it's 4 monks in a cathedral. I only webbum'd the audio.
Googling Moon Far Away and looking over their stuff; this is clearly something entirely different.

>>12494974
Thank you anon, i'll have to take a look at this

>>12477718
>that physiognomy
I'm not obligated to listen to someone of such low character

im curious about /lit/ demographics

are you
1) church going christian
2) christian but not going to church
3) atheist

>>12498227
atheist (Pandeist) but going to church

>>12497936
Sorry, I haven't checked. The text is too modern, for some reason I thought they wrote it themselves. It's a folk song:
> Waves roar, waves surge // The foam beats the shores // On the shore sits and woes // A sea fisherman, shedding his tears
> His boat was crushed by the storm // The rig has gone with the wind // In that boat, there was a beauty // His own, his beautiful wife
> I'll buy a boat, a new one // I'll make a rig myself // I wonder if I'll die, or if I'll be alive // But I'll be sailing in the waves

That's definitely not a part of any service, also, church choir is not required to be clergymen. It was just some performance.

>>12498227
1) church going christian

>>12498227
2 but sometimes 1

Assuming at least most of you are Christians, have any of you managed to find careers that allow you to exercise virtue? I'm a corporate drone but I wish I was doing something more meaningful, but cannot find any inspiration

>>12498227
Raised Catholic and still go to church when I visit family, but was atheist from pretty much the age of 5 onwards. Recently started to re-consider faith, and now I'm probably best described as agnostic Christian existentialist, if that's not too much of a pseud definition. Basically I have no idea about the existence of God, but try to practice a Christian life

>>12498227
I'm a-atheist if that makes sense.

>>12499063
It's AN atheist, not A atheist you bloody moron. You can tell because the first letter of the noun is a vowel. The standards on /lit/ are really slipping, I swear to God

>>12496730
As if your prior post was any good? Most of your points were garbage fedora tier nitpicking.

>>12498227
1

>>12499092
Based post
>>12499029
Outside of joining the priesthood I don't think there's much of a difference. It is unironically all about what you spend time on.

>>12498227
used to be 2 but now 1

>>12498227
1

>>12493123
Imagine believing in fucking scientificism in 2019, fucking kill yourself

>>12498227
I unironically worship capital

Bataille's works

>>12498227
Number 2

Need to get myself in a better shape before I can feel comfortable putting church into my schedule.

>>12502636
My illness automatically excludes me from 3/6ths of those things.

>>12502642
That sucks anon. Try your best at the other 3.

>>12482949
Shut the fuck up you clueless pseud hack and learn to think for yourself. Resorting to authority is the most straightforward sign of a knuckle-dragging retard that there can be.

>>12499092
Meant to say simply not atheist.
I don't define myself positively.

What is sin? Are we saved or not? Why do we worship God on Sundays

>>12498227
>2) christian but not going to church
Planning on joining the Church after I move to Germany this fall.

>>12502636
You forgot

>moments of overwhelming existential terror quickly masked by a splash of water or a quick selfie

>>12501191
that looks disgusting

>>12500855
your god is called mammon you dummy.
And into hell you are going.

>>12500855
y

>>12503437
I don't experience this anymore
>>12502967
>Paul cannot be reconciled with the teachings of Christ
If only the direct successors of the apostles would've had the knowledge that you have

>>12503604
im glad for u anon

>>12500855
don't do this

>>12499092
Based

>>12498227
∞) Jew interested in becoming baptized

WHAT A WHOLESOME THREAD THAT I AM SEEING HERE. MAY PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS BE WITH YOU ALWAYS, FELLOW BROTHERS IN FAITH. I'LL PRAY FOR ALL OF YOU THIS WEEK'S SUNDAY

IN NOMINE PATRIS,
ET FILIVM,
ET SPRIRITV SANCTI

AMEN.

>>12504885
same

>>12505434
Tell me your story, haver

>>12480740
C.S. Lewis wasn't a philosopher. His books were not meant to be strong arguments of theology. Rather, they were digestible opinion pieces. The biggest argument Tolkein and Lewis had was that Tolkein thought it was irresponsible for Lewis to be so explicit about Christian morality in his fiction and opinions, precisely because he was an untrained theologian. Tolkein thought it was better to secularize his personal understanding so that if he was wrong or too simple with anything, a lay person would not be confused as to thinking it was a genuine position of the faith, or even a strong argument. If you think Russel, Hitchens, and Dawkins are anything more than the equivalents of Lewis, though, you're are an even greater pseud than they.

>>12502636
You are miserable and out of shape because your priorities are wrong. Fit church into your schedule, and everything else will slowly start taking care of itself. Realize that God is your first obligation. If you are too busy for God, how are you not too busy for food? What is an hour out of a week that you cannot spare it?

>>12483739
If you cannot trust Paul, then how can you trust any of it? All we have has passed through Paul.

>>12484181
The sedevacantists are not based, especially now that the latin rite is becoming more common again. Schism is not the appropriate answer.

>>12505461
Well I was raised an atheist jew. Had a bar-mitzvah, but my family explicitly didn't believe. Then I discovered /pol/ and came to hate and recognize the kikery all around me. I started getting offended on behalf of Christians when my family shat on them all the time. Then I went to uni and read a bunch of Dostoevsky, and realized I was interested in Christianity. Then I started reading a little Augustine and the Gospels and now I've realized that Christ is the truth. It has actually lessened a lot of my hatred for jews, since I have come to respect their ancient status even if I don't respect them today. I have much less hatred in my heart now, though.

>>12476317
I wish chapo boomers would leave

>>12505687
>Going full Fischer

>>12505725
>Fischer
I don't actually know who you're referring to. Can you recommend me any good works?

>>12476331
I got more out of Imitation of Christ than I did Jordan Peterson. I don't know why I started 12 Rules. I guess I fell for it.

>>12505734
Fischer was a chess player, the best, he was basically /pol/ incarnate, he also Jewish.

>>12505687
Sounds good, just don't fall for any memes like Messianic Judaism or Lutheranism
Go with one of the major institutions like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or the Episcopalian Church.
But all of these have pretty significant issues these days, so don't think all of your problems will be going away or that the institution you're joining is in any way perfect. Try to find some solid ground for your faith and if all else fails, just cling to every single word that Kierkegaard ever wrote and become a church of one.

>>12505725
>>12505734
he means Bobby Fischer, the chess genius who was a Jew and then snapped and went full 1488 at the end of his life (especially after 9/11).

>>12499034
Sound similar kinda sorta. Was brought up Catholic but in Novus Weirdo church. Quit in my late teens. Went to Shin Buddhism for about a decade, which did absolutely nothing for me. Read up on Trad Catholicism and started attending SSPX masses. I use the 1962 Roman Missal and was conditionally confirmed by Bishop Richard Williamson in 2013. Going back was the smartest thing I've ever done.

>>12505758
>>12505761
oh, yeah, I recognize the name now. I thought you were talking about a philosopher or something. I know of him from /pol/, probably have a decent amount of pics of his quotes saved. I know /pol/ goes overboard sometimes, but I'm very grateful to everyone who bombarded me with anti-kike stuff there, because it probably saved me.

>>12505761
I bought Kierkegaard recently though I haven't read it. I have been attending the local Episcopalian Church, but starting in a few months I'll be living in an Orthodox country for two years, so when I get baptized it might be as an Orthodox, unless I wait til I come back. Choosing an "institution" is kind of rough, but I feel right now as though it doesn't really matter as long as I pick one and commit to it it will be enough (though feel free to let me know if this is incorrect)

>>12478565
Hey I found that article several years ago and I was about to link it. I like that blog a lot.

>>12505523
I am too busy. University, work, study, meeting friends and etc leave me feeling too exhausted to even enter a church. I’ll start going once I can get myself organised, of which I’m terribly not right now.

>>12505687
Man I really want a friend like you IRL.

>>12506146
thanks bro. I'm sure if I knew you I'd want to be friends too. I unironically have always wanted another friend that visits this website. Are you going through something of the same?

>>12506143
You have everything completely backwards. God is first. You cannot possibly be organized if you are not going to church, if you are not placing God in the center of your life. Everything else is secondary. It is only by placing God in the center, by building your schedule around church that you can even possibly begin to see what else should be in your schedule. When you say you have time for school, for work, for friends, for 4chan, what you are saying is that all these things are more important than God. Something must come last, and it cannot be God.

>>12506176
I don’t even have a local church my friend. I’m doing my best but I’m placing the latter things above church right now. I want to go, and I will; I just need some time.

>>12506236
>now
How do you know there will be a later?

I love The Holy Bible. I love Jesus and The Lord. There are valid answers to complicated life problems within the text. Find guidance through God. Be good.

>>12493123
>Atheism is based on rationalism and science
I physically cringed. I'm not even kidding.

>>12505549
Someone should've told that to the pope any time between 800 and 1204

>>12506013
>>12505761
>Episcopalian
You absolutely do not want to join this heretical, dumpster fire of a church. The orthodox and Catholic Churches are often involved with dumb political and nationalistic shite but at least they still defend the Gospel.

>>12506236
I agree with this anon >>12506305 >>12506176 you absolutely must go to church. It gets easier.

>>12506158
I'm a bloomer and I'm very open to making friends. Kinda the opposite of you though since I'm a blonde/blue eyed gentile. My mom's favorite authors have always been Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn even before Peterson memed them up, so that's the milieu I grew up in.

If you're ever in north GA/east TN you can sleep on my couch or we can hang out. neminis at gmxcom

>>12505055
he looks like hes praying for you to buy skyrim on the switch. checked.

Listened to this on a retreat. cried. a lot.

>>12498227
number 4: future clergy

>>12507539
What seminary?

>>12476304
Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future
by Fr. Seraphim Rose

Modern Western man has apostatized from Christianity and indulged in far-Eastern mysticism. He has replaced Christ with forces he does not understand. He has rejected the authority of the Traditional Church, yet joins cults which kill him. He meditates and allows new demons to take up residence within him - demons his ancestors did not experience, and demons that were not present until he let them in. He is every religion and no religion. Through Ecumenism, he erects the system that the Antichrist will use to take control and to deceive the human race.

(not a quote from the book, just a thought I had about its contents)

>>12507647
Lord give me strength for the coming war

>>12507647
man, if only god actually did something maybe people wouldn't be turning away from his sham to pursue things that actually have an effect.

>demons exist
lol

>>12507676
>only lived in peace time

Your tune will change soon

We're about to have another Vietnam with Venezuela- enjoy the draft

>>12476304
Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales is exactly what its title says and it's very effective.

Oh yes! Boëthius' Consolation of Philosophy is highly underrated. Truly a gripping and profound book.

>>12477702
>https://www.latinmassdir.org/country/au/
Never attend a Novus Ordo - thank me in prayer.

>>12507011
aw that's nice, it sounds like we would get along. Unfortunately, I'm leaving the US for a few years soon. If I were anywhere within 5 hours of you I would email you, though.

>>12476304
i unironically consider this blog post contemporary proto-Christian literature

http://www.thehartleyhooligans.com/2015/12/i-love-you-every-step-of-way.html

Lads, which one should I get?
>Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross
or
>The Interior Castle by St Teresa of Ávila
I also want to recommend Catholic Norwegian author Sigrid Undset.

>>12509175
First one

Also the man you posted is an absolute God-send.

Man and the God-Man

By: Archimandrite Justin Popovich


http://bookstore.jordanville.org/9780971950559

>>12501191
I really don´t know what to think of that

>>12507901
That's okay man. Go make something of yourself and God bless your endeavors.

>what are the percentage chances of an under 30 white male who belongs to the orthodox church being a pol larper

90%? 95%?

>>12478643

Ascended

Have you seen the “slave lord” chart with Plotinus? What’s up with that?

>>12509376
thanks friend, and you

>>12498227
1, Church going Christian. I read alot of Orthodox Literature and theology in between reading military history and memoirs.

>>12476331
Either/Or really isn't about Christianity. Check out Works of Love if you haven't. Either/Or was my favorite of his until I read that.

I really enjoyed reading Silence by Shūsaku Endō. Anything like that, the themes of inner struggles with faith?

>>12502636
None of this will make you happy without God.

>>12482949
BASED

I love you all

>>12513933
i love you too anon