/lit/ - Literature

>>12106094
Last millennia, more like. We need Land/Mieville or Land/Seymour.

Zizek said he was willing to do it back in October. Peterson is absolutely based so I know he’s down. I think nobody has set it up and that’s literally it, these guys need managers.

>>12106254
Peterson is pathetic Andrew won’t do the debate. Ziezek has tried twice now and guess who refuses. Peterson knows he’ll get btfo which means less patreon and book money

>>12106452
*how do people post from their phone. I text a guy and now autocorrect just changes shit.

>>12106094
Zizek was cucked by Will Self in a debate and doesn't want to debate anybody anymore

>>12106465
stop texting guys you cocksucking fucking faggot.

>>12106094
I dont think its even possible to win an argument against Zizek. His rhetorical techniques combined with peculiar mannerisms are too much to handle. Whatever you claim he is always going to use it against you by throwing it into the marx/lacan/hegel machine that shows how what you thought is entirely reasonable but in reality things are actually completely OPPOSITE of that because of some psychological(Lacan)/philosophical(Hegel)/sociological(Marx) reason then he'll throw in a soviet totalitarian joke to an already confused audience and everyone will think he is a genius and the other guy a complete retard.

99% of people that follow zizek do so ironically, you and your circle of internet friends are probably the only people that take him seriously.

>>12106482
like when it turns out it's actually bad to be upset by getting cucked you mean

zizek is a literal retard with a drinking problem
peterson is just a psychlogist for people men for boys without a father figure
i fail to see the intellectual TITANTIC

>>12106094
Who would win ?

>>12106094
It's a waste of time to debate Zizek, his arguments are not grounded in reality and so there's no refutation that can be offered other than "What the fuck are you even talķing about?". Imagine someone coming out on stage and saying "teudhjenfofnekeoogmdnekieindow - that is my argument!", it's meaningless and hence can't be refuted. But such is Marxist rhetoric.

>>12106094
Zizek already said a lot of shit about Juden Peterson, the two will have to debate eventually.
Can't wait for Zizek roasting Washyourpenison

>>12106564
Zizek's criticism of Memerson mostly based on second or third hand accounts of Memerson. I don't think he has ever used the "cultural marxism" meme or very rarely, because he knows how it sounds, so he uses instead the meme-word "Postmodernism" without having actually ever read anything about it

Memerson has also never argued that it's a conspiracy theory, just a group of people being retarded together without any cabal of masterminds pushing it all

he is still retarded, but retarded in different ways

One of the greatest philosophers of our times vs some guru of the incels who writes self help books about cleaning room and being nice to people

>>12106452
>>12106094
For Peterson “debate me” is only a rhetorical flourish, it’s a nothing more than puffing up ones chest.

‘Debate’ plays very different roles in the intellectual worlds of Peterson and Zizek. For Peterson a debate is a sparing contest, it’s about defeating your enemies through displays of wit and rhetoric. In general this is the conception from Ben Shapiro type conservatives.

Zizek also debates, but for a very different purpose. Rather than defeating your enemy, debate is about the emerging with a better understanding of the faultlines between two ideas.

Take his debate with Graham Harman for example. Off the bat they both make it clear that they will consider it a successful ‘duel’ if the audience leaves understanding the exact philosophical points where they disagree. The whole debate is about finding the exact points at which their understanding diverges.

Or take the book ‘Contigency, Hegemony, Universality’, which should be thought of as being a debate in book form. Zizek, Ernesto Laclau, and Judith Butler all wrote essays and then had two cycles of responses to each other’s essays, again with the goal of articulating exactly where they differ and why.

These sorts of things Peterson doesn’t seem interested in. He’s only interested in debates as boxing matches, where his supporters show up to cheer for him and then leave with no change to what they know.

>>12106681
>Zizek also debates, but for a very different purpose. Rather than defeating your enemy, debate is about the emerging with a better understanding of the faultlines between two ideas.
are you retarded? Zizek has never listened to anybody if you check his videos

>tfw /lit/'s poster boy will get raped by jordanson "detoxify your domicile" beberson. The butthurt will be PALPABLE.

>>12106681
Yeah i think theres the core difference between pop conservatism and accademic intellectuality. Zizek comes from the typical academic tradition, whilst Peterson in more of a performer. Its two completely different ways of communicating and thinking

>>12106736
When intellectuality becomes ego stroking and cheering with no transformation.
The new pop right has shifted from debate to advertisement. From though to performance and representation

>>12106094
>jordan peterson
>actually debate someone
He's in it for the money, the only people worth debating are people like Sam Harris where the fanbase doesn't actually care who looks better.

Holy shit. Guys, John's revelation was right. This is the time. As soon as the Jews return to Palestine. The second coming (Peterson) will debate the Antichrist (Zizek)
What a privilege to be alive during this time.

>>12106254
>Peterson is absolutely based so I know he’s down

lol Peterson constantly says "no Marxist will debate me" but then ignores the ones that offer and keeps saying it anyway. he challenged a fucking zizek themed twitterbot to a debate thinking it was the actual man, and zizek had to be informed about it by a third party and accepted a debate this clown challenged a bot too. Truly JBP is a based & redpilled alpha chad.

>>12106809
Philosophy shouldnt make you feel nice. Its supposed to challenge and transform you. Intellectuality isnt a drug or a clothing item or a pillow to sleep on. Philosophy is supposed to be an axe. This is whats lacking from pop intelectuality and politics. But thats a product of the shape the ibformation takes. The philosophical message takes the linguistic form of advertisement, and as lukacs says all you neet to know about a text in respect to its cultural and social place is in its form not its contect

>>12106681
Good post. Contingency, Hegemony, Universality is an excellent book.

>>12106861
>Philosophy shouldnt make you feel nice. Its supposed to challenge and transform you.
i think that's skateboarding anon, you are confusing things

my main problem with jbp is that he doesn't debate interesting people who might give real opposition to what he says. last i watched are the debates with sam harris with that other proffessor as mediator, it was ok but the themes were a bit boring in my opinion

but seeing him talk with Zizek or Peter Wolff, who actually put up a video challenging/inviting him to a debate/conversation not long ago, would be really interesting. or at least have him interviewed by the hardcore left who actually has their ideas clear

but he seems to only be inteterested in teaching his ideas to the masses, not learning from others. he really dissapointed me desu

Peterson versus ZizekBot 2019 GET READY

Why are there so many threads dedicated to this self-help reactionary pseud?

>>12106254
Peterson is a fucking coward and won't do it

Eh, Zizek is too mystical. He'd still BTFO peterson, but some like Jason Unruhe or the finnish bolshevik would be better.

>>12106482
I dont think its even possible to win an argument against Peterson. His rhetorical techniques combined with peculiar mannerisms are too much to handle. Whatever you claim he is always going to use it against you by throwing it into the solzhenitsyn/jung/nietzsche machine that shows how what you thought is entirely reasonable but in reality things are actually completely OPPOSITE of that because of some psychological(Jung)/philosophical(Nietzsche)/sociological(solzhenitsyn) reason then he'll throw in a country bumpkin joke to an already confused audience and everyone will think he is a genius and the other guy a complete retard.

>>12106989

Americans are pic related.

>>12106989
>everyone on the board claims to oppose him or be above him
>gets as many threads as DFW and Pynchon combined

based nu-/lit/

>>12106094
I made the mistake of reading Memersons comment section on youtube.
The amount of sycophantic arse licking is beyond anything I've ever seen.

Land VS Zizek when?

>>12106989
>reactionary
>this is a bad thing
Fuck off commie cuck, time for you to put on your ball gag while Tyrone fucks with you in the ass.

>>12106578

No but seriously, journalists ARE morons.

>>12106094
Id like to see it, but I can't imagine Zizek being able to win a debate since he doesn't ever actually say anything concrete, just ramble making free associations and tell funny anecdotes

>>12106094
>A clown and a charlatan walked into a bar...

How does it end, anon?

>>12106094
I’m still amazed at the absolute butthurt Peterson is able to generate from left wing pseudo intellectuals who have never read or listened to anything by him

Seriously, zero books makes a new video every week about how bad Peterson is. It’s absolutely amazing

>>12106254
Peterson challenged a Zizek quote bot yo a debate on twitter, Zizek heard about it and accepted, Peterson never brought it up again. Peterson wont even debate Douglas Lain from Zero Books, he would get demolished by Zizek.

>>12107077
Case in point

>>12107030
He (meaning whoever his handler is, he couldn't do shit himself) is paying streetshitters to shill him, just like every other self-help author getting spammed on the board, like the arab guy with the very fragile ego

And obviously pol does it for free, since their time is actually worth less than your average Indians'

>>12106549
zizek doesn't drink or use drugs

>>12106959
I agree with a lot of Peterson's point, but if you haven't seen this debate I'd recommend it. He gets beaten quite severely if I remember correctly. I'd like to see something similar in good faith about his views on economic socialism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmH7JUeVQb8

>Debating
Name one serious philosopher who did debates in his time

>>12107129
>actually thinking there is a conspiracy and thinking /pol/ loves Peterson
Are there still people running with the “Peterson is a neonazi fascist alt righter!” Meme?

>>12107134
Da Greekz

>>12107135
>Actually thinking shilling is a conspiracy and not a perfectly normal business practice

>>12107059
this is the real accelerative debate

>>12106094
>"Idiosyncratic Smackdown"

but really, they aren't even interested in the same things. Peterson would probably just point out that Zizek is a "Marxist" over and over, then strawman Marxism until people clap

>>12106094
Isn't Zizek dying or something and thats why he couldn't do it.

>>12107134
Foucault, Derrida, and Chomsky.

>>12107138
>Da Greekz
yeah, but it was called dialectics back then integrated in daily talks, nothing like events or something

>>12107142
>Peterson doesn’t even understand Marxism!
This is the left wing equivalent of “SJW gets DESTROYED by logic”

>>12107134
bergson debated fucking einstien

>>12107151
>Foucault, Derrida, and Chomsky.
not serious, just spectacle

>>12106681

I was disappointed by Peterson's "debate" with that /r/atheist cowboy. He spent the whole time meandering about Christianity in a utilitarian extraverted sense while cowboy was giving him so many free openings to bring up Idealism or Subjectivism or Dialectic or whatever. Cowboy culminated with a downright moronic claim that all of Christianity is scriptural and monosemiotic, and Peterson didn't even flinch. I mean even most /r/atheists would've objected, for FUCK'S sake.

>>12107155
haha, i'm not a lefty and i'm not defending Marxism. Peterson's content is just weak in this area. He is literally operating on intellectual bad faith on every level

>>12107163

Yeah, this one:

>>12107132

>>12107155

Most people don't know anything about Marxism or communism or any of it, though. They think American propaganda or just flat out ignorance is fact. Look at how many people call Scandinavian countries socialist or the USSR communist. Or how using some taxpayer money for healthcare in America (instead of to military contractors profiting off the death of others) is radical communism.

>>12107183
>USSR communist.
It was communism, communism in reality, rather than the fancy communism you have imagined with your brain. When you try to create a communist society, the Soviet Union is what you will get, pretty much.

>>12107162
Sentences typically require substance, not just the resemblance of a meaningful claim.

I recently a saw a video clip of Zizek giving an interviews and he was asked about Peterson.

He had some pointed critiques of his approach, including saying that it's not the phony "cultural Marxism" that's the problem but a lack of real, worker's and economic Marxism in academia. What brought to to a cusp for me was his comments about Peterson's "life wisdom".

Zizek said this is when he wants to behave like Goebbels and pull out his gun. He distrusts this self-helpy side of Peterson's work. Person, as a clinical psychologist, obviously sees things differently.

>>12107132
yeah i saw that one, it's a good discussion. but as you are saying and i said, the theme of religion is kinda boring by this point and not very relevant, i'd rather hear discussions about socialism, multiculturalism and things

>>12107134
it can't be debates because they are not productive by definition. but in our age, we can just have conversations; just have them talk for a couple hours every 15 days, both agreeing that they won't prepare for it and that it won't mean anything, that even if one of them seems defeated completely is just a conversation, doesn't mean he is wrong. i unironically think that society would improve measurably if good-willing intelligent people with different ideas just talked to eachother and let people watch it. but this pseuds live off it, they put their need for money first, and their money depends on their brand. it's a tragedy that we have the means but the system doesn't allow it

>>12107197
it was run by a communist party, but even they didn't call the country communist, it was the union of soviet socialist republics. if you understand what communism means it makes a lot of sense.

>>12106710
>Zizek has never listened to anybody if you check his videos
Well, somebody has never actually read Žižek.

>>12107197

Nah. Let the adults talk, American. You're quite literally proving my point.

>>12106094
>He won't debate Zizek
He just agreed to debate Žižek in case a debate is set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqpA
_H2RCwE&t=72m25s

>>12107208
What communism means (a classless, stateless, moneyless society) is a bunch of baloney, a fairytale that cannot exist in reality. It is entirely contradictory to human nature. Classes are simply proxies for biological ability.

The idea of communism was simply a means for disgruntled intellectuals to sieze the state apparatus for power.
>>12107220
>the super-duper special communism that exists in my head can exist in the real world, bro!
Not American.

>self-help guru
>intellectual titan

>>12107223
Fixed the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqpA_H2RCwE&t=72m25s

>>12107225
>ussr is what communism is
>communismis a fairy tale it could nevet exist
and here we see the ocillaton of liberal false consiousness, it's like you could set your watch to it.

>>12107225
>Classes are simply proxies for biological ability
surely you recognize that not every wealthy person made their money through genetics...

>>12107183
So since some people don’t understand what it is, that somehow means Peterson’s or other conservatives criticism of Marxism or communism is flawed? What logic is this? You can literally use this excuse for anything since there are going to be people who don’t understand the thing they are criticizing

There are people who unironically think Peterson is a legit fascist or neo Nazi for example

>>12107223
>in case a debate is set
>in case
i distrust him, if he wanted it to happen he could done it long ago

>>12107240
You're either dumb, autistic, disengenous, or all three.
Communism, as it is espoused and imagined by commies, cannot exist in reality. When you try to work towards a communist society, you will never achieve the imagined communism, you get what is possible in reality: the soviet union (or something similar). So the Soviet Union was communism as it can exist.
>>12107248
Of course not. But generally what you will find is that people who become rich had better genetics (higher IQ, better work ethic, etc). This is even more obvious in liberal democracies.

>>12107225

>human nature exists
>communism can't real
>but ussr was gommunist

Please stop posting, American.

>>12107271
>>human nature exists
Yes
>>communism can't real
Not it can't.
>>but ussr was gommunist
It was real existing communism, not the fairytale in theory books. Though admittedly Marx didn't write that much about it.

Not American.
I'm from an ex-soviet state.

>>12107271
Cringe

>>12107250

Peterson himself doesn't understand it. Unless you're a blowhard, ignorant American you cannot critique something you don't understand.

>>12107285
no one is defending the ussr lmao holy shit you are struggling

>>12107283

Source: your arse. Why can a stateless and classless society not exist? Zizek really is right that people can imagine the end of the world before an end to capitalism.

>>12107285

Yikes.

>>12106710
I genuinely don’t understand what you mean to say. Here is the Zizek/Harman event in full;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r1PJo_-n2vI

The core of that debate is their differing ontologies. Harman’s onject ontology, against Zizek’s idea that reality itself is ontologically ‘incomplete’. If you want t get into the weeds of it all there is a decently large chapter in the back half of Less Than Nothing where he takes on all the so-called speculative realists.

>>12106865
Ty

>>12107021
While this is true Zizek also has a set of rhetorical devices which baffle the uninitiated.

And Peterson’s biggest anti-communist talking point, “it’s easy for you ignorant young person to be a communist when you live in a first world western democracy”, has no traction with Zizek because he was born in the Tito regime and suffered first hand political repression for his work.

Zizek can also read in unconscious motivation just as easily, also based on psychology (Lacan), Philosophy (Hegel), and sociology (Marx).

>>12106094
>Orthodox Marxist
Not an intellectual. Sort of the opposite. Marxists have no intellectual authority and do not even deserve a description this long.

>Radical Individualist
Either so stupid that he doesn't understand human behavior or disingenuous. In fact there's plenty of reasons to believe that Peterson is basically a lying cocksucker. He was a huge cunt as a kid and once had huge ambitions. He failed all of them so now he's conniving his way back to fame by selling basic psychiatric advice to kids on the internet.

I'd honestly rather listen to Richard Spencer narrating a cookbook than Peterson's drivel.

>>12107203
>He distrusts this self-helpy side of Peterson's work. Person, as a clinical psychologist, obviously sees things differently.

Inferior Si/Se confused at seeing itself more developed in another. Note how Peterson's advice is always glib and about appearance and indulgence, always S-based. If you're into the MBTI as Epistemology, think of the ENFP-ESTJ dynamic.

>>12107287
But you’re just spouting nonsense and bitching about America like a crazy person though

>>12107300
>that wasn’t REAL communism
Wow, it’s even worst than I thought

>>12107323
>he had a huge ambition and failed
Yeah, now he’s only the most prominent intellectual around and a best selling author. What a loser

>>12107333
>that reading comprehension
stalin was a communist, the ussr was socialist. this isn't hard to grok, political theory 101 anon.

>>12107134
Bertrand Russell, AJ Ayer

>>12107346
He wanted to be Prime Minister you fucking retard. But I guess you didn't know that. He wanted to run the country when he was a kid and he ended up as a mid-tier academic who has to youtube shitpost to be relevant.

Peterson certainly has some problems with some of his views but why are so many of you simply pretending to be surprised? You can only be harassed, banned from talks, falsely accused, and shunned on all levels by the intelligencia before you crack and want to start fighting back. Keep in mind Peterson is only a figurehead of a much larger movement of people fighting for their rights to be respected as intellectually autonomous.

Zizek said it best himself when he laid out that the reason PETERSON is so well respected and gaining ground is proof of how weak the liberal project is. Even if he’s a bible thumping, meat only, pseud; it’s food to see these fucks get their shit fucked in.

The best thing that could possibly happen would be for the groups of leftists in the shadows that are bubbling up against PC to make themselves known and align as a coalition with this emerging project. Put aside their small squabbles and crush this once and for all.

As much as I love seeing BEN SHAPIRO full up gaping BOI PUCCIS with Fact JIZZ even I’m getting a little tired of how much space this is taking up in the intellectua spaces we all share. And it’s only going to get louder till it’s addressed.

Zizek already got btfo by Bowers 3 days after failing to condemn /pol/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieGCqd_hoSQ

>>12107360
>he’s just a youtube man!
Does it frustrate you that Peterson is objectively more intelligent than you or literally any eceleb detractors of his you love to watch?

>>12107347
>USSR was socialist
>he doesn’t even understand that socialism is just the transition phase that eventually will lead to communism, at least in theory
Yikes

>>12107374
Maybe there's something to the whole anti-Semitism thing.

>>12107377
I'd ask if it frustrates you that you just got blown the fuck out, but your womanly social-shaming tactics have already illustrated that indeed it does.

>>12107361
Peterson is winning simply because the left is really really stupid and incapable of articulating any actual response. Part of this is because none of you have literally any idea what Peterson even believes or says, so you just look silly and/or you don’t even grasp the ideas that he is critical of. How many of you think post modernism and critical theory aren’t tied together at all? How many times are you going to claim “cultural Marxism” is a neo Nazi meme?

There’s also the self help stuff which is whatever, but it does seem to work for some people and when you bitch about that, you just end up looking like miserable crab in bucket assholes

You guys have horrible apologetics for you’re poorly thought out and understood world view that Peterson is critical of which is why your are failing so miserably to “stop” Peterson. You can get mad at me all you want, but calling Peterson stupid or a fraud or that he’s a secret fascist ect. Hasn’t worked for the past 2 years or more and won’t work.

>>12107333
Christ, how hard is it to understand the termological clarification people are trying to point out to you.

As Lenin said ‘the goal of socialism is communism’. What Lenin, Stalin and the Soviets think they achieved was *socialism*. They believed they had achieved a dictatorship of the proletariat which would *some day* result in the withering away of the state and thus full communism. They were communists, and thus wanted to achieve communism, but they didn’t believe they had. Instead they believed they had achieved socialism (as per the name ‘union of soviet social republics’). It was only in anti-soviet circles, ie America, that called them ‘communist countries’. What they mean is ‘communist controlled countries’. The countries were not communist, they were socialist, but they were governed by communists.

All of this is just a point of clarification on the terms we are using. Of course it ‘wasn’t really communism’, nobody every believed it was. So whipping out this whole ‘it’s never “real” communism’ act is just a performance for nobody. Because nobody here is defending the Soviet Union as being an awesome place that would be real fun to live, we are just trying to get on the same level in terms of the meanings of the words we are using.

>>12107397
>you got BTFO!
I’m going to take this as a yes. It’s really satisfying seeing smug pseuds on the internet who love to play armchair psychologist get called out by an actual clinical psychologist.

>>12107423
In other words, they were communist who tried to implement their communist ideals and it failed miserably

>>12107323
>He was a huge cunt as a kid
source?

>>12107385
that's literally why it wasn't communist, you're starting to get it anon! you're almost there!

>>12107455
It was communism though. That is the real life result of trying to make that theory a reality. It doesn’t work

>>12107059
This is what I want to see, but Land is so far out of form now he has actually become pic related. Just spends his time posting edgy shit on twitter that usually equates to "lol it aint that deep dumb libtard"

>>12107423
>As Lenin said ‘the goal of socialism is communism’. What Lenin, Stalin and the Soviets think they achieved was *socialism*. They believed they had achieved a dictatorship of the proletariat which would *some day* result in the withering away of the state and thus full communism.
Except it wouldn't, retard. That will never happen. Humans will never give away power willingly and classes cannot be eradicated, classes are primarily the result of biological differences.
Can't believe you retards are actually duped by ideas like "the state will wither away once the means of production are more advanced!". The guys at the top will do their damn best to stay at the top. This is basic human behaviour. Human nature. Get a job and stop believing this baloney.

spoiler peterson won't be able to keep up then will condemn zizek as being obscuritanical.

why should an academic have to "debate" with a bed-wetting self-help guru?

its like, why should a doctor have to justify themselves to someone who has done a first-aid course?.

fuck peterson. he's a cunt

>>12107323
>Zizek
>Orthodox Marxist

the man is a self proclaimed lacanian idealist you absolute fool

>>12107493
>this is literally the best cope leftist can come up with

>>12107302
>Zizek really is right that people can imagine the end of the world before an end to capitalism.
Wasn't that actually a Mark Fisher (F) quote?

>>12107132
>economic socialism
As opposed to WHAT? Laissez-faire classical liberal socialism? Where does this idea come from that non-Marxist socialism has achieved anything of note ever? Why does calling myself a Marxist have to be followed by an explanation that I don't support Hillary Clinton or some shit? It pisses me off because the word is being made meaningless when it has a perfectly knowable meaning. Fucking Lenin save us from worthless "left-wing" radicals.

>>12107464
>it was communism, communism can never happen, so communism isn't communism, communism is the failure of communism by which isn't real communism is real communism because communism can never happen under human nature so communism isn't communism.

>>12107496
he's a materialist
>>12107512
its actually jameson

>>12107531
Communism isn’t achievable and any time a communist tries to actualize his theory, it has and will fail horribly

Why is this so hard for goobers to understand?

>>12107505
That anon is entirely correct though. Right wingers clinging to a guy like two steps above Eckhart Tolle is pathetic but unsurprising. Zizek has his problems and has, somewhat to his detriment, become a meme, but his worst book has about as much substance as Peterson's entire career of Nietzsche misreadings and Jungian mysticism.

>>12107542
because you keep calling countries that existed communist. if its impossible then it wasn't communism. are you really not understanding the contradiction in saying "communism is impossible and the ussr was communist"

>>12107543
Ok anon. I’m sure bitter pseduo intellectuals will totally stop Peterson by repeating that Peterson is a dumb dumb ad nauseam.

How many times are you going to say “Zizek would destroy Peterson in a debate” as if it’s a prayer?

>>12107558
They were ruled by communist, as in people who believed that communism was possible to achieve.
You’re a really stupid person

>>12107566
this was my argument you retard
>>12107208
are you really agreeing with me after all this fucking horse beating?

>>12107520
Yikes

>>12107580
No it wasn’t. You’re really a fucking idiot who is incapable of thinking. Just because they didn’t accomplish communism doesn’t mean they weren’t communist, as in, those trying to reach communism.

>>12107561
not the person to whom you're replying, but anon, you're the one who sounds bitter.

>>12107594
...that was my argument anon. Stalin was a communist the ussr was socialist. if you can't read 4chan posts how am I supposed to beleive you've read any meaningful political theory?

>>12107595
>no u
Great response. How many time a day are you going to make the same thread about Peterson, saying the same boring things about him, and believe this will magically “take him down”

>>12107609
The USSR was communist anon. That is the path that it was heading down. You are a really stupid person who argues that since they didn’t achieve it, then it wasn’t communist

There is absolutely nothing left to debate in this realm. As evidenced by the Sam Harris debate, the same exact unsolvable problem plagues both arguments. I am not sure there is even much of a distinction between someone who believes in God and someone who doesn't other than the speed with which they want to move away from the bible. You see this shit with harris and peterson. They both believe the same bullshit; harris is just more liberal and peterson is more conservative.

>>12107543
This, how can Žižek and Peterson even be slightly comparable? Žižek is a serious philosopher in the continental tradition, he has made worthwhile contributions to philosophy and is extremely well-read in the field he operates in. The only place where he talks "pop philosophy" are lectures given to dumb americans because attempting something more would be a fool's project. If you listen even just to his lectures in Yugoslav countries they are grounded in continental thinkers and worthwhile to listen to. It is not his problem that Anglos are philosophically barren.

>>12107647
>continental philosophy
Into the trash it goes.

>tricked into arguing about surface level bullshit by commie scum

>>12107624
if you don't achieve something, you are not that thing. I could want to achieve being a professional authour all I want, untill I acheive it I'm not a professional authour. it doesn't matter how much you want to be president, simply wanting to achieve it doesn't make you the president.

>>12106254
>Peterson is based
Yikes

>>12107663

>>12107663
>if you don't achieve something, you are not that thing.

The third Reich wasn’t national socialist because it achieve a 1000 year aryan Reich

>>12107114
I had to stop listening to Zero Books' podcast specifically because they kept going on about Peterson but never seemed to be interested in the ideas he puts out. Surely it can't be that hard to put out a "Jung is Fascist Mysticism" or "Evolutionary Psychology is untestable hypotheses" podcast but instead they keep going down the 'he's not a communist and therefore evil' route. At least they keep the "__-ist" name-calling to a minimum but still.

>>12107676
Hitler explicitly said it was, and no one is saying national socialism is impossible either. These are some awful arguments anon.

Have you boys watched his newest talk?

>>12107684
This is because the bizzaro strand of left wing actavism Peterson primarily focuses on literally has no argument and thinks dialogue is wrong, which is why they are so obsessed with shutting down events and speakers. And now that liberals have gotten tired of that shit and started to ignore them, they have no recourse other than impotent temper tantrums.

USSR was the greatest achievement of the 20th century, and Stalin was a monumental figure who dedicated his life to socialism and represented the struggle against imperialism for more than 1/3 of the world. Both camps of bourgeois democracy can only agree on one thing, their unrelenting hatred of every achievement accomplished by the global proletariat. There is no "postmodern Marxism" or "reformist Marxism" or "liberal Marxism". There are those who support the worldwide struggle for actually existing socialism, and those that attempt to bury it with the full armed support of international capital. What they happen to call themselves is ultimately irrelevant, they have been revealed and debunked by the communists innumerable times.

>>12107708
Of course, fren

>>12107717
Yeah but Zero is an 'old school communist but aware of theory' podcast, they don't really have any patience for the full-time cry-squad.

>>12107520
>Why does calling myself a Marxist have to be followed by an explanation that I don't support Hillary Clinton or some shit?
Because retarded American zoomers decided that socialism now means protecting the interests of the lumpenproletariat and punching dissenters in the face. They have no interest in the materialist and class aspect (i.e the only good parts) of Marxism because they belong to the bourgeoisie themselves and only stand to benefit from the liberal-capitalist system. The reason they're squealing about class reductionism and brocialism is because they're protecting their own class interests. That's why they're a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
We've already heard Peterson BTFO these blue haired sissies living on daddy's money, so now it would be interesting to see someone take on Peterson's view of genuine socialism. Because Petey can't use the same analysis on something like SYRIZA that he does on American tranny socialism LARPers.
>>12107583
Kekd and saved

>>12106094
Zizek's got chunks of guys tougher than Peterson in his stools.

Peterson wore knee high leather boots and a 1890s cape while working in a prison. Why would anyone trust someone who went to prison dressed as a RPG character?

Still not one solid refutation day after day about Peterson’s rise being simply a result of the wasteland that is current liberal thought LOL

Meanwhile Zizek is getting deplatformd and blacklisted from American media faster than you can say the word “cuckboy” and all he can do is watch Peterson rise as his ability to publicly scrutinize him dwindles. Yet somehow you guys can’t figure out Peterson’s importance. You could take him out easily if you weren’t cowards that were too scared to speak out against your own kind.

>>12107926
Neoliberalism has already won, - strong, right, and good, and the future belongs to the technocratic class.

>>12106094
I honestly fucking hate these two and their dumb fucking cunt faces

>>12107454
Dude trust me

>>12107447
You could interpret it as such.

>>12107464
I don’t know why you are like this. Even from your stand point the inference you are trying to draw is ‘communism is impossible’, not ‘so therefore that *really was* communism’.

Either it was *actually* communism and it was lousy, or it totally failed to attain communism and thus communism is impossible. For the anti-communist those are the two possibilities. The difference with somebody who isn’t anti-communist is that they probably don’t agree that the failed experiments means we ought to draw the conclusion that it is altogether impossible, just that it’s very difficult. Maybe so difficult it’s not worth trying again, but not impossible per se.

>>12107472
Okay? But what does that have to do with what I said. It doesn’t seem like you are disagreeing that Lenin and Stalin thought what I said, you are just disagreeing with it’s correctness. Which is great, I don’t really care. The point at hand is sorting out the meaning of communism and socialism with respect to the Soviet Union. If you can’t restrain yourself from going on anti-communist rants long enough to acknowledge the point at hand, maybe you ought to resist commenting at all.


>>12107512
It’s Fisher quoting Zizek quoting Fredric Jameson.
>>12107542
Every time it has stalled at the socialism stage and not graduated to communism. Therefore there have never been any communist countries. All we’ve thus learned is that socialism doesn’t lead to communism.

>>12107624
If a caterpillar gets sick and dies you can’t say it ‘really was’ a butterfly. That was indeed the path it was heading down but since it never reached that stage you can’t say it was that thing.

If we try to lab grow a new organ, but it ends up as a mess of random cells every time then we can never say at any point it was really a heart. Sure we intended it to become a heart, but it so happens that being successful in that endeavour is impossible. To say it ‘actually is a heart’ is just incorrect on a basic factual level. The thought alone doesn’t count if there is no corresponding to anything actual in the world.

>>12107505
im not left wing. save your ad hominems.
fuk hed

This has already been said, but I'm bored.

Peterson won't do that shit, not in a million years. Zizek is an accredited and prolific philosopher with a global presence and a long history as a public intellectual. Peterson is a recent YouTube star, not a philosopher, and has only succeeded in debating TV personalities and college students who he's got 35 years of lived-experience over. He claims to be willing to debate any Marxist willing to get on a stage with him, but Douglas Lain has been offering him that opportunity for around a year now and Peterson keeps backing out prior to events. If he's not willing to debate Lain, then he should definitely not get on stage with Zizek.

There's no benefit for him to stand behind a podium and erode his image by speaking with someone who has the confidence and expertise to force him to compromise. And he's far too egotistical to use a Ben Shapiro cop-out and resort to dismissal on the grounds of the opponent's ignorance. The fact of the matter is that his understanding of Marxism is more rudimentary than a second-year philosophy major and his hermeneutics don't stand up to rigor. He can stand up to Bill Maher or a Vice interviewer just fine, but so can anybody with halfway decent verbal intelligence and some confidence.

Further, Zizek's approach to debate is dialectical, not oppositional. Peterson's objective upon entering any room is to establish himself as the resident authority on given matters, and that's just not compatible with academic philosophy whether we're discussing politics, ontology, or anything else.

In accepting, he'd only weaken his lucrative position as the father of disaffected young men and the vanguard of speech freedoms at universities. Literally nothing good would come of it unless he wins, which he wouldn't. But more to the point, even if he did win, he'd just be in the exact same spot he's in now but with a shiny new feather to decorate his cap. But that's about as good a bet as Jamal Kashoggi to score a 2-point conversion in this year's Superbowl

>>12108370

How would peterson deal with Jouissance?

>>12107129
>like the arab guy with the very fragile ego

He is NOT an arab tho

>>12107183
BUT IT WASNT REAL COMMUNISM!!!!!!!!

>>12108370
I agree with this post

>>12107271
>Human nature doesnt exist

Stop larping as a dumb XX marxist and kill yourself. Or at least become an accelerationist which is the correct path for any marxist

>>12108370
based

Oh cool a monkeys slinging shit contest i always wanted to see that

>>12108906
What does the word "nature" mean? If you guys are so into psychoanalysis why dont you take into account repression theory and everything Freud said in his book about monotheism and Moses? Also epigenetics etc if you want to stretch it.
Social behaviour is natural. The social sphere and the collective psyche are natural and also constructed in a way. Things are not as simple as the lobster man makes it to be

>>12106094
Peterson is unironically playing a really important metaphysical role masked with capitalist pop aesthetic, forget about the memes wash your penis snake oil salesman thing, the principal idea or realization in peterson thinking is to give back the great role that man used to had in the western civilization, to restore the patriarchy or to revive the metaphysical god, all cover up with the capitalist aesthetic explosion of self help gurus. If we read Spengler right and we agree with his conclussions, the appearance of peterson in the last man circle is the west trying to stop its doom, to become truly reactionary and present a diferent face to the accelerationist point of view of the decline of the west

>>12106094
Zizek spews a bunch of nonsense, but he'd still completely annihilate Peterson

>>12108370
>He can stand up to Bill Maher or a Vice interviewer just fine, but so can anybody with halfway decent verbal intelligence and some confidence.
But those people aren’t meant to debate him, just trying to let him clarify himself. One can say that they are hostile or blast but it doesn’t change what they are supposed to do.

Hell that Australian comedian gave him a simple gotcha trap that he just fell apart. I agree with everything else you said

>>12108880
Please, just stop commenting. If you aren’t gonna play then go somewhere else.

>>12106553
2015 Z
2016 Z
2017 ??
2018 JBP
2019 Harris

>>12106466
That was painful to watch. Ziz, a neurotic, poorly aged 60-something diabetic who has devoted his life to reading hegel, taking snarky witticisms in front of an audience from a lanky man-adolescent stoner who thinks he is the Second Coming of Joyce.

>>12107360
He was 14 you faggot, its not a bad thing not to be doing the thing you wanted most to do when you were 14 because adults set better goals than 14 year old

>>12106488
Irony is used to do things you want but are afraid to do because they'll damage the image others or you have of yourself.

Nobody talks about Zizek unironically irl because he's outwardly repulsive, but on 4chan nobody keeps up appearances.

>>12106554
Literally nobody thinks you're intelligent except maybe your mother

>>12106094

already happened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43vRoD8GnIY

>>12107885
all you did was make him sound cooler than he is

>>12107472
>Humans will never give away power willingly and classes cannot be eradicated
a fucking contradiction, classes exist because humans give away their power willingly.

>>12107322
>has no traction with Zizek because he was born in the Tito regime and suffered first hand political repression for his work.
and he was literally ran as the Liberal Democratic Party's candidate for Slovenian presidency when shit was on the line

it's easy being a communist now that he doesn't really believe it will actually happen and affect his life

>>12106094
The master files, or as you call them, the master debates.

>>12107609
that's like arguing TRUE capitalism doesn't exist because there are no 100% free markets, it's a useless debate defense tactic that doesn't add anything to the conversation

>>12107645
>harris is just more liberal and peterson is more conservative.
Harris is literally a neocon, he has just fallen for a bunch of inconsequential californian memes

>>12110038
Explain

>>12107708
Steve Bannon was the superior Leninist on this year's Oxford Union Address
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AtOw-xyMo8

rightwingers are even better leftists than leftists themselves, how can they ever recover?

>>12107926
>Meanwhile Zizek is getting deplatformd and blacklisted from American media faster than you can say the word “cuckboy”
he should post on Jacobite and join the NRx ranks

>touches nose
>touches tshirt
>TOILETS IN FRANCE REMOVE SHIT

>>12106254
Peterson knows he doesn't know shit about Post-modernism. That's why he backed down from his post-modern criticism and now he is focusing on self-help.

Zizek would win just by pointing out stuff that Peterson ignores about Post-modernism. Even random youtubers are capable of that.

>>12110052
how is stonetoss this dumb

>>12108925
>epigenetics
Thank you, I'm tired of brainlets who think of genetics as an immutable thing, and then go on about "muh IQ, muh fitness" while it's clear that they have shits for brains.
Moreover, anthropologists have shown that humans have lived in a way pretty close to Rousseau's state of nature for most of the prehistory, so if anything we are living in times as foreign of human nature as we can go, if such a thing even exists.

>>12107019
fucking commies, man

>>12106254
>>12106452
Zizek is not willing to debate him. He said so pretty clearly in one of his talks. He said he can't stand that Jungian crap and he made fun of 12 rules for life.

>>12110547
>this entire post
wew