/lit/ - Literature

melanin

I'd argue that there is no line, that they are simply two genres of wordsmithing between which there is plenty of overlap.

>>11946869
right
>>11946871
wrong

>>11946863
The difference is in aesthetic than anything.
WASP versus African-American.
A regular song is as close to a poem as rap is, so the connection of rap to poetry is arbitrary at the start.

That being said, it's generally obvious which tradition an individual is pulling from.

A further point is the formal meters of traditionally writer poetry rather than rap which is mainly based on rhythm and rhyme.

>>11946863
Black people. Also, poetry that isn't verse fiction is generally garbage with few exceptions.

>>11946863
"ooga booga"

>>11946863
Fuck, if Bob Dylan can win the Nobel, then there isn't any difference worth arguing about anymore. The general public and the elite critics alike recognize songwriting as literature -- arguing against it would be a lonely, pathetic form of elitism.

I'm tempted to say the instrumental. That is, rap is bound to the beat, thus, has exterior constraints that poetry doesn't. However, there are plenty of cases of rap without a beat.

So, I would argue that if you're not rhyming, than you're not rapping. Traditionally, rap always rhymed. Poetry doesn't seem to require rhyme.

When the words are made for a hip hop beat. If you've ever just tried to read rap lyrics, you'd find that they're rather tiring without being performed.

>>11946863
Off topic, NSFW image that doesn't contribute to the discussion. This is a work safe board. That picture clearly is an advertisement for a pornography website and it is altogether inappropriate regardless.

>>11946984
That only goes to show how seamlessly our elite have been incorporated into consumer culture, and the extent of cultural homogenization that has occurred since the neoliberal program began. I think they're honoring Bob Dylan because he's a forerunner to that cultural agenda. Bib Dylan, with some help from Pete Seeger, essentially destroyed folk music and with it folk culture in the US. The American cultural imperialist machine used it to do the same throughout the West. When you think about what it represents, arguing against it is all the more important.

>>11946974
>implying that /lit/ isn't willing to dismiss the Nobel Academy in order to continue being contrarian

>>11947034
This is, was, and will be the worst meme on blue boards.

Rap falls under the umbrella of poetry just like all other music.

>>11946863
Rap is primarily oral.
Poetry is primarily written.

Rap typically relies on a beat which is external to the rap itself. Poetry encodes the "beat" into the words itself, the restriction is internal rather than external.

>>11947086
Didn’t we already when they picked bob Dylan?

>>11947092
Poetry doesn't have to be and substantially originally wasn't written. But basically yeah. Designed for accompaniment or not.

>>11946863
>Muh diving line
The Western world will always be cucked by essentialism until it finally self-destructs.

>people actually saying musicality and orality divide genres

This is what happens when you don't start with the Greeks. How the fuck are you going to define poetry in a way that excludes Homer?

Anyway, OP, the only distinction is elitism / politics / racsim

>>11947081
>Bib Dylan, with some help from Pete Seeger, essentially destroyed folk music and with it folk culture in the US.
what

>>11946863
Imagery, context, usual meters used and style/word usage. Their goals are also different.

>>11947448
The Weavers turned folk music into bubblegum pop, and Dylan gave it the legitimacy required to subsume all genuine forms of folk music. Why make music for the purposes of your community when you can be seen as some sort of mysterious poet/prophet and make tons of money in the process?

>>11947410
>implying a period where musical creation is almost entirely industrialized is comparable to Ancient Greece.

>>11947496

Money eclipsed tradition before Dylan. He was the symptom, not the disease.

>>11947410
you know exactly why we have that attitude against blacks. homer didn't write about muh dick nigga n hoes n shit. blacks misuse the form. i don't even hate them or anything but jesus, sometimes /pol/ is right, they don't seem to do anything right. even having the lyric freedom and the music behind as no poet of the past had the best they manage is to create uninspiring bland images about their mundane, if mildly amusing hostile enviroment. i mean, the ones who are really into rap really think, unironically that this is the 'black shakespeare' and that it should be on high on the wester canon:

When I dress, it's never nothing less than Guess
Cold be walking with a bop and my hat turned back
Love committing sins and my friends sell crack
This nigga raps with a razor, keep it under my tongue
The school drop-out, never liked the shit from day one

The type of nigga who be pissing in your elevator
Somehow the rap game reminds me of the crack game
Used to sport Bally's and Cazals with black frames
Now I'm into fat chains, sex and TECs
Fly new chicks and new kicks, Heines and Beck's

>>11946863
Why does it say dogfart

>>11947539
He was the final nail in the coffin. It’s why celebrating his work is so disgusting.

>>11947551
thats the name of the porn company

>>11946863
reckon she'd fuck me boys?

>>11947535
Yeah man I sympathise with you; times change and industrial capital is not exactly art's friend, but right now we are talking about genre distinctions. If you argue poetry cannot possibly be produced under modern capitalism, yeah I mean that's a pretty depressing reading of modernity, but at least it would be a clear delineation of genre. If that isn't your argument, what is? How can you define poetry?

>>11947548
>topic matter dictates poetry
I mean, we both know that's stupid, right? Are Sappho's love songs or Catullus laments (about hoes n shit, to use your terminology) less poetic than national epic? Again this is a ridiculous genre distinction, to say poetry has to be about certain things and not others. Your other critique seems to be
>rap isn't poetry because it isn't good / deep
And further
>black people are shitty artists
No 4chan response is going to make you less racist, but if you care about literature and poetry (rather than just trying to look like someone who does), shouldn't you try and find the best of any poetic genre and mine it for aesthetic bliss and meaning? There is way more to rap than the caricature that you are drawing, and I'm definitely thankful for a dynamic popular poetic scene in America.

If you want to try to give rap a chance, listen in good faith to artists like Mos Def and Kendrick or Common and Nas. Don't just try and collect bad lines to share on 4chan and brag about how all rap sucks and you've even tried listening, try to hear why their rhymes move and inspire so many people.

>>11947628
Owned by a Jew, of course.

>>11946863
If rap is poetry, then so is any other kind of lyrics. Alex Turner for instance, would be a better poet than most current poets and rappers.

When people start comparing rap, a pseudo-improvisational attempt to keep up with a simple 4/4 beat and impress the audience by bragging about their lives, to poetry, like capital P Poetry, I have to question whether they've actually read poetry on a serious level.

Like, could Coates read Yeats's "He wishes for the Cloths of Heaven" and pick up on how Yeats deliberately contrasts his first quatrain's dactylic beat with the second quatrain's anapestic metre to emphasise his narrator's bitter humility and better contradict his fantasies? Does he understand the sheer amount of effort, skill, and intelligence it takes to consciously manipulate the rhythm not of a sentence or a phrase, but of the very way each and every syllable itself is pronounced and arranged in order to represent a complex and emotional idea? To do this while maintaining a coherent grammatical and original rhyming structure AND while delivering a series of stunning images that range from religious ecstasy to poverty and psychological turmoil? To then subtly contradict this established structure in order to draw attention to yet another complex idea?

This isn't just a spread of internal rhymes, puns, and catchy slang; this is a man loading no more than eight lines with as much content as the English language allows.

Illmatic is a good album. Nas is a talented rapper. But to say that a 16 year-old kid from the projects operates at the level of a Nobel Prize-winning poet is absolute horseshit. No he fucking does not; he wrote his lyrics according to some DJ Premier beat and his own public image. You want to judge his writing as poetry? You want to look at his words when they're neutered from the music and live audience they were written to accompany? Okay, let's look. There is no coherent metre, let alone any conscious metrical technique. His rhyme scheme is all over the fucking place, and a lot of phrases were awkwardly forced in just to hit those incredibly simple end rhymes. The narrative is sloppy and its images are repetitive; he abandons ideas halfway through simply to survive until the next line. He brags about himself constantly and fills his story with non sequiturs that serve no purpose other than to highlight his knowledge of street slang and demonstrate how violent his life is.

As poetry, it's kind of trash. It's not very creative. It's definitely not skillful. It should be performed over music and never ever separated from it

>>11946974
Poetry is the pure expression of one's ideas and feelings through the use of a language. Prose on the other hand is, and always will be, confinated in the limits of language as a communication device, being it vocal or written, since that is its basic premisse. Saying that most poetry is garbage just go to show the shell of it's own self this board is becoming

>>11947785
love this pasta

>>11947789
>Poetry is the pure expression of one's ideas and feelings through the use of a language.
No it isn't, you can do this with prose, too.

>>11946863
Rakim is probably the closest we have so far to a rapper being literate whilst still being a rapper.

>>11947789
Most poetry is garbage. Most of anything is garbage. Theodore Sturgeon would like to have a word with you.

>>11947785
>As poetry, it's kind of trash.

>implying you've listened to every hiphop album ever released to the public
Your shallow arrogance stinks worse than 50,000 rotting cows

>>11947822
He's right, though. You don't need to read or listen to everything. That's quite the hyperbole. The best rappers can't even hold a candle to the best poets.That's all the sampling you need. No rapper comes close to Dante, Virgil, Yeats, Leopardi, Baudelaire, etc.

>>11947805
Prose is structured exactly the way you speak, which is what makes it generally easier to read and more popular than poetry, which is an artificial use of the language, making it the only way to use words purely for an aesthetic end
>>11947814
Putting it like that I guess i'll have to agree

>>11947724
My problem isn't even with the muh dick nigger shit in itself, it's about how badly they use the poetic form to portray that shit. fucking james joyce wrote about a jewish pathetic cuckold and he's immortalized in the canon. the problem is that rappers are simply fucking trash, their lyrics are bland, always spoken from the same point of view, and absolutely cringe outside of the instrumental perspective (just fucking read out loud without the beat in your head your favorite 'poem' by these rappers, it will sound bad), even in that perspective, they still lack any artistic sense. i mean, it's just incredible how many rappers speak from the same perspective, with the same views on the same topics. it's like a tribe, really. you get someone like Hart Crane and T.S Eliot, both white, both american, and they are almost diametrically opposed as possible, even if TS Eliot inspired Hart Crane so much. Seriously, read The Waste Land and then read The Bridge. I don't even need to tell you anything about it, just read and see. Now get Nas and Soulja Boy Tell'em, who are supposed to be far apart, but when you see it for what it is, they're the same voice. They're speaking about the same issues, in the same way(the first person 'i' in the hood fighting gangs and smoking weed and getting bitches and measuring muh 9 inch dick), the only difference being is production and Nas does it in a slightly better way, with more "thought out" rhymes.
as for your crying of muh racism, i'm not american, i couldn't care less for blacks. but it's clear to anyone that they're simply not good in this whole art thing, at least, not with language. I like some rap albums like Atliens, Madvillainy, King Geedorah, Endtroducing and so on. They're definitely not good as poetry, but i think their instrumentals are quite nice.
>Don't just try and collect bad lines to share on 4chan and brag about how all rap sucks and you've even tried listening, try to hear why their rhymes move and inspire so many people.
unfortunately i've listened to all of these and others, and i can safely say that they're all trash. you just don't have a taste for poetry, which is fine, most people (including myself a few years ago) don't have.

>>11947785
fucking kek, 10/10. i initially was going to respond to that faggot with this pasta but i couldn't find it anywhere, even though i still had in my memory the yeats line.

Intelligence

>>11947860
>Prose is structured exactly the way you speak
>Ulysses, who are James Joyce, Virginia Woolf, etc.
Lurk more.

>>11947860
>Prose is structured exactly the way you speak
>what is Finnegans Wake, what is Ulysses, who are James Joyce, Virginia Woolf, etc.
Lurk more.

>>11947872
fucking based af

>>11946863
If you wouldn't fuck pic, you're not even racist, just gay.

>>11946869
black is the new white.

>>11947789
>pure expression
>limited to strict, established motifs and rules

>>11947785
What is capital P poetry? Because it just sounds like a spook "I know it when I see it" indefinability with goalposts as mobile as your changing opinions. Yeah Yeats is more evocative than Nas; I don't know anyone who disagrees. But the comparison is as useless as Yeats vs Vergil. Same tradition, same genre, but entirely different aesthetics, different skills, different worlds. Calling it "not skillful" implies that there is one objective poetic "skill," which I'll bet you definitely can't define either.

Also, yeah this
>>11947814

>>11947872
You spend half your response talking about perspective as though poets only speak in one voice. There's a reason people celebrate, for instance, Kendrick and Common, who both frequently build other characters with unique lives into their albums. Like just listen to the polyphony and narrative developments of Kendrick's Fear. Again, you are nitpicking and rejecting really meaningful stuff to reduce it to a shell of itself because you seem to reject that rap could be meaningful as a genre of poetry.

I'm not crying muh racism, just pointing out that the only distinction you're making is drawn with a racial line. How else could you call one thing poetry and the other not?

>>11947789
Poetry is the delusion of trained apes to think that they can manifest their unconscious in conscious word arrangement of any form. What do you think will get you closer to understanding the experience of being stabbed: prose, poem, or literally getting stabbed? The gulf between prose/poem and the actual experience is infinitely great, but the gulf between the prose and poem is, despite appearances, shallow. A poem's strength is that it closely mimics the way people thought maker works -- quick, disconnected observations that serve as reference guides to the overarching story that people constantly whisper to themselves to stave of a panic attack.

>>11948079
>I'm not crying muh racism, just pointing out that the only distinction you're making is drawn with a racial line
Not him but there's white rappers and black poets. Although, if rap is poetry, then so is every other music genre with lyrics.

>>11948096
Yeah, how is music not poetry? No one yet has offered any substantial criticism other than a vague "but old stuff is good and song lyrics suck" critique.

>>11948079
>You spend half your response talking about perspective as though poets only speak in one voice.
Of course, because rappers in general speak about the same topics in the same manner.
>There's a reason people celebrate, for instance, Kendrick and Common, who both frequently build other characters with unique lives into their albums.
Great 'unique' life of a young black man who is born in the hood and has to sell drugs and kill other niggers to survive in the world. Or the verse written in first person about how x rapper is better than the rest. I guess Kendrid did it in a slightly different way in GKMC. But see, it took them 20 years or so to figure out that you can use narrative techniques like in the 'Backseat freestyle' where he writes the verse as if he is the young man himself rapping about whatever bullshit came into his mind (which is of course, ironic, since Kendrick and all other rappers never get past this stage). Their voices are all the same. Read them without the beat in your mind, read it aloud and get a feel of the words. They all use the same phrases, the same rhymes, they only sound 'different' because of the instrumentals and the flow. Like the pasta says, it can be
>Again, you are nitpicking and rejecting really meaningful stuff to reduce it to a shell of itself because you seem to reject that rap could be meaningful as a genre of poetry.
I thought that my James Joyce example already settled this. You can get any, any experience ever and transform it into beauty if you can write well enough. My point is: rappers aren't writing well enough to be considered good poetry and maybe they shouldn't even be considered poetry at all. Even if what they do is by definition, 'poetry'. Postmodernism is dying, we can have standards again. That is for any form of music, "white" music as well.
>I'm not crying muh racism, just pointing out that the only distinction you're making is drawn with a racial line. How else could you call one thing poetry and the other not?
I'm only citing blacks because they are the ones rapping (at least for the most part). 'White' music (that is, pop music, techno or whatever) isn't very good as well.

>>11946863
Rap rarely uses more than alliteration and basic rhyming, and subject matter is strictly defined by an industry and consumer base, it's always been shit and only gotten worse. Present-day pop rap has no poetic elements whatsoever, barely has hiphop elements actually.

Unironically, the only decent rap is rap done by non-African-Americans. Don't think there's any black rapper that's actually good. And despite that, there's almost no rap that should and can be separated from the non-textual parts, namely, the music but also the very particular vocalisation, context, and image. Rap is far more complex in these things because the individual rapper (and others) carefully set them. Whereas poetry is just text, recited roughly and distinctly each time. There's no idiosyncrasies beyond the text, there's nothing beyond the text at all. More than technical poetic excellence, vocalising something a certain way is more important, and sometimes means the text is completely irrelevant (it providing good-sounding sounds is most important, hence why you hear seemingly meaningless but legible phrases -- it's the sounds they provide for the rapper to work with that are relevant).

>>11948141
I'm not saying it is or it isn't, I'm saying "rappers" shouldn't be treated any different than other lyricists.

>>11948163
>White' music (that is, pop music, techno or whatever) isn't very good as well.
Eh, Alex Turner is the best lyricist around, and better than any living poet.

>>11947673
If you paid her enough, sure.

>>11948208
epic. simply epic. at least you didn't say thom yorke

>>11948244
Name a better current poet in the English language. The lyrics in the latest Monkeys record are the closest we can get to poetry from our times, and the imagery in it is unparalleled.

I want to cheat on my girlfriend with a black girl and make her watch

>>11948264
>what is phil elverum
>what is mac demarco
>what is 21 savage

>>11947548
>we
Speak for yourself, /pol/

>>11948291
memes

>>11948283
>

>>11947860
>Prose is structured exactly the way you speak

>>11946863
Rap relies on external rythm provided by the instrumental.

>>11947572
>>11947496
>>11947081
Yes guitar folk cannot be taken seriously post-Dylan, but that's neither a knock against Dylan or a bad thing in general. Dylan if anything was at least a genuine artist in that he seemed to greatly appreciate the art of music making and performance, I see no problem with people considering him a role model for this. Guitar folk, like many traditions, was created with an expiration date already planned for it. Folk is just an aesthetic, you can still compose highly personalized and local music and people are still able to appreciate it for what it is, none of this has changed.

rap is a vocal technique
poetry is a writing technique

you can speak written words however you want
you can write words to suit a vocal technique/style

you just hate black people, we get it

>>11949156
They arent black nor people

>>11949156
I don't hate black people, I just am not willing to lie to myself about them and their behavioral tendencies.

>>11947724
>Mos Def and Kendrick or Common and Nas.
That fact that these people are considered the apex of Hip hop lyricism demonstrates how far the genre has to go in order to get anywhere close to quality poetry.

Tons you wigger

>>11947893
Poetic language in books! It’s almost like Joyce surrounded himself with poets like Ezra Pound, Eliot...etc etc

We get it, you’re a retard who hasn’t gone past hs

You can make the argument that rap music comes from other oratory traditions like 70s party albums and toasting, but this argument involves going into full african-american studies mode and talking about "signifying" or whatever.

I don't think the distinction between the two is really that clear or important - poetry has always been adjacent to music.

Whenever people talk about the rap///poetry comparison, they're trying to elevate rap music by comparing it to an older and more respected form, or trying to make poetry appear more accessible by comparing it to a popular form, and doing both these things is kind of pointless and a weak way to approach both of them imo.

>>11948163
Techno is black music.

>>11947860
>Prose is structured exactly the way you speak
...

>>11946863

>poetry
sells like shit, only sold in print form and maybe an audiobook but nobody listens to those
>rap
one of the most popular music genres that is sold exclusively in audio format and if you want to read the lyrics they're all literally free if you do a quick google search
only

>>11948079
>What is capital P poetry?
You should read the rest of the pasta. For a literature board you roody poos sure seem averse to reading. If I had to define the one objective poetic skill, I would say it is the ability to write metered verse. If you can't do that you have no business experimenting with the other forms, which is why everyone here sneers at Rupi Kaur.

>>11946863
If you're rapping
without the beat
you're going a cappella
that's poetry, neat

>>11947548
Yes, there are shitty pop-rappers, just as there are shitty pop-poets.
But there are also good ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYDJ432b0U
read along as you listen:
www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/mfdoom/deepfriedfrenz.html

>>11946863
rhythm?

>>11948208
>Eh, Alex Turner is the best lyricist around, and better than any living poet.
How can this not be bait?

>>11947789
>Poetry is the pure expression of one's ideas and feelings through the use of a language. Prose on the other hand is, and always will be, confinated in the limits of language
Aren't these the same things?

threadly reminder that DFW loved rap

>>11946863
Rap has no form. Freeform isn't a form.

>>11949943
>Rap has no form. Freeform isn't a form.
What?
how doesn't it have form, please elaborate.

>>11946863
She looks like she has intimate relations with European descended men.

>>11947034
>NSFW image
Huh?

>>11949389
>implying fags like Pound and Eliot had any major influence on a genius like Joyce
kys

>>11949973
Poetry died along with painting in that its form became so watered down that it eventually arrived at "free verse" nonsense, like painting did from Impressionism onward. Rap and modern poetry have no form compared to classic (read: real) poetry.

>>11947860
>Prose is structured exactly the way you speak
This truly is the end of /lit/. See you all, it was fun while it lasted.

Popular music isn't aiming to be high cultured poetry. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy pop culture.

>>11949883
Yes. But that anon is too retarded to see

Rapping is poetry.

>>11949890
Daily reminded that he was a product of the 90s and should stay there.

>>11946863
i wanna punch her face so hard

>>11947724
Holy fuck if you're trying to get someone to think rap is legitimate don't recommend Kendrick Lamar. Jesus christ

>>11946863
ew

>>11950043
This. No one should read books from before 5 years of the current year

God i want a black gf so badly

>>11950137
Why? Black girls are pretty much the easiest women to get. While most white and asian girls are running away from me screaming, I still get hit on regularly by average to decent looking black grills. I still remain incel though because I'm not into drilling oil.

>>11950158
black women are as undesirable as you are

>>11950169
i'm probably among the 10 most undesirable men in my country desu.

>>11948264
Will Toledo is the only musician whose lyrics actually have poetic merit

>>11946869
>>11946875
So is eminem a poet?

>>11946863

a poet has a tambourine. a rapper has a beatbox. otherwise, the only difference is that the poet is more likely to be well-read.

I'm caught up in this hell called life
A poltergeist in the dark tunnel, yearning for the light
I'm trapped confined, in the prison of space and time
Traveling, through the narrow maze of my mind
Looking for a way out to escape from within
Made of sin, the outerworld be a dead end
A treacherous road, laced with charlatans
Disguised in a variety of pigmented skin
Pushing ghetto dreams, fictitious realities
The hustler's theme, feeding material fiends
Obsessive needs, to consume, worldly things
The infiltration of these forces, leave the righteous to scheme
Capitalizing on the poverty, niggas live and breath
Like the clergy, collecting loot to deceive
The unaware, baptized in a cess pool of lies
In this land of homicide, blind leading the blind
So-called civilized, self appointed
The Wise Supreme Divine, calling others 85
Those with open eyes, can Knowledge the signs
The Mathematics of Today, got man in decline

>>11950707
>uses ebonics
Dropped.

everyone is acting like the term poet is more prestigious, but do you guys not realize that most poets suck? Only a select handful of poets are Walt Whitman-s; most are Rupi Kaurs. Most of the rappers you think of would be considered the Rupi Kaurs of hip hop (being popular for some reason but producing complete garbage) while there are occasional Walt Whitman-s of hip hop too.

>>11950707
how to say absolutely nothing in tons of words

>>11950713
what ebonics?

>>11950724
Tell me who is the Dante of hip hop.

>>11950729
> the outerworld be a dead end

>>11950728
Try again anon you'll get it

>>11950724
Who is the homer of hip hop ayyy lmao

>>11950742
What's not to get? I meant to say nothing new, the lyrics are pretty one dimensional and direct. I've actually seen better rap songs.

Duckin' and dodgin' from them folks, with my nigga Tommy Wright
Jumpin' them fences hittin' them ditches, tryna stay away from that light
Can't get caught, so I'm (vampin') fast, crawlin' through some tall grass
If them po-po's catch my ass, they might try to put me in a body bag
Grip a nigga Glock, I can't stop, 'Till I reach my fuckin' block
If they yell out, "Freeze" I squeeze the trigger, one more cop get shot
Hit the cut, duck and creep, tryna make it to the next street
Now they rollin' three cars deep, thinkin' they finna catch a G
Think again, I'm in the wind, now they're wonderin' how I do it
'Cause I (flap, flap, flash) on they ass, or better yet (car Lewis)
First degree is known to break, right in front of them bitches face
'Cause they tryna gimme a case, that I don't want, so let's race
I'm gone win, again and again, 'cause I know these fuckin' streets
Leavin' these bitches upset, when I jet, 'cause it's all they see
Clever like a fox, fuck them, Narcs, I'm leavin' them hoes so fast
Pump they brains, when I aim that .44 to your fuckin' face
Think I'm playin'? I don't joke, I love the smell of gun smoke
Once again it's on, grippin' the tone, runnin' from them folks

>>11950813
Truly on par with Alighieri's The Divine Comedy, Milton's Paradise Lost, and Leopardi's Canti.

>>11950158
>white and asian women run away from me
>my standards of what is decent should be trusted
lol

>>11950707
It's tiring to read through. Its quality derives entirely from its delivery.

I want to lick her navel

>>11946863
The line is not so much technical as topical, i think.


The canonical poets wrote at a pace and environment thats idyllic compared to rappers. Thus makes them meditative and deliberate.

Rappers OTOH manufacture lines like machine guns, spaying anc praying they hit something profound. If they ever DO hit, its hard for readers to notice as its buried under columns of bad material.

By bad i mean emotive (fuk all yall / slumbummin in tha projects) and unrelatable (imma high rolla, throw top dalla / salad tossin heaven in hell). Theres no narrative or deeper (speculative) content for most rap; on that account rap is pretty low-entry.

Canonical poets tend to address a wider humanity, even their wangsty stuff like Wasteland; rappers are by and large focussed on their own wangkst.

They dont WANT to be understood or relatable; that makes their sell-by really short and the chance of canon Lotto low.

Me and my partner TipToe 'bout to do a homicide
Crankin' up the ride, finna go out on the east side
First I roll a blunt, so rappers like us can get high off the spliff
So when we gets to cap, we won't have no pity when we kill
Rolled up on the set, real slow, with the lights off
Then I see my enemies, wanna cap 'em with the sawed off
Bustas standin' on the corner, sippin' on some Alizé
That's when I got the tec, threw in the clip and then commence to spray
Jump back in the Chevy, burned rubber, as I left the scene
Still blazed from last night, so a killing to Tommy Wright just ain't no thang
Ballin' down Beale Street, headed to a C.T.O
Buy me a getaway, packed my bags and lay low
Go and pop the trunk and put the pump in the plastic bag
Buried in the yard of the house that my father had
Now these suckers fearin' me with rumors lurkin' on the streets
That I shot another, and left his body like a refugee
Yellow tape, chalked bodies, blood on the concrete
Won't go to jail now or later, step to me, you'll meet yo maker

>>11946863
>>11946869
I don't listen to rap often, but I read large amounts of poetry, so I'll offer my perspective.

The year 2000 is the dividing line, approximately. Rap was near to becoming a legitimate form of poetry before then. It had been steadily increasing in complexity since the late 1970s in general, but, like many things, it buckled under the weight of Capitalism and the pandering aimed at the commonest ear which came to pervade it as it became more and more mainstream. It declined very rapidly and will probably never recover nor become what it could have. It's a real shame. We could have had a kind of modern rhapsode eventually. Along with Jazz, it is one of the unique American musical art forms which has had global influence.

If you want my opinion on a more concrete dividing line, I think it is actually similar to the decline in contemporary poetry in general. 21st poetry has a tendency to drop dimensions. The poets of our times seem to generally prefer to use words enigmatically for emotional effect, using symbols without meaning, in an attempt to provide a catharsis beyond reason. Although I'm sure I'll be mistaken for a misogynist for saying this, I see this as a product of the feminization of modern society. Similarly, Rap at its best garnered its rhythms from the English language itself, and used the natural cadences of English, like good poetry, to encapsulate deeply personal perspectives in rhythm, rhyme, emotion, and thought - all creating an atmosphere. Contemporary rap, by contrast, has allowed its rhythms to be dictated, not by the natural flow of English, but by predictable and simplistic beat progressions derived from the drumming which was once being governed by the rap artist, but which is now his governor. The thematic depth has been replaced by capitalist-hedoninst self-aggrandizement and the equivalent of low forms of poetry which are no more than polemic peer jibes, and a distinct focus on atmosphere for the sake of a feeling experience rather than as a means of conveying a deeply subjective psychological perspective.

This focus on atmosphere for the sake of feeling, and feeling without thought isn't purely a product of feminization however. It is also the product of technology and the divide between the Gutenberg minds of the 20th century and the whatever-we-have-nows of the 21st, but I don't have time to go into that right now. I'm off to work.

>Tldr; The level of craft and depth of perspective have really gone down.

>>11950707
A good example why rap is bad:

It's focused on volume because the 4/4 beat makes volume necessary. Result: all dat hatt faya is very imprecise in terms of description of social problems, spiritual / mental state. All i got from it is a one-tone prejudice of resentment.

You notice how rappers so seldom rap about any kind of self-doubt? Like how rap might be meaningless, how thug life might be fools glorying in deadends, how their set (blood crips streetkings &c) might be the ones that started the beef war over nothing? Always gotta be the hero even while complaining about victimhood.

Even if they were to be deemed poets, the money motive of making LPs and the lack of selfreflection makes them untrustworthy.

>>11950707
This is a series of essay titles, zero elaboration or exploration.

It takes no mental effort to write this, just good aural sense for sound and tempo.

>>11950724
Okay ill bite. Who is hiphop Whitman?

>>11951051
Dis.

Mah nigge.

>>11951082
Kendrick is the only one who truly manipulates form and structure. I would say he's the closest.

Listen to Sing About Me, I'm Dying of Thirst, or if you haven't, just read the lyrics and see if you could believe it's a poem.

>>11951122
Read; agree.

He's above-decent whenever he stops rapping about hisself and how hard he be.

>>11951122
kendrick is the only one who manipulates form and structure? lmfao. what a surprise that some normie thinks one of the best rappers is also one of the most commercially successful.

I'm enjoying this thread; lots of good discussion, strong philosophical convictions, and some gems of insight. Maybe I should just make a separate thread, but is anyone interested in sharing poetic songs? This is one of my favorites, from a dismally underrated band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yengtPU2FVg
(That first line is "Face first in gloves", by the way.)

>>11951244
Not that poster, but please. Anyone can sneer.

Provide argued counterpoints and/or examples to be taken seriously. If you have any.

>>11951294
Usually its only worth sneering because people dont even want to participate in discussion... but I apologize for sneering.

mf doom comes to mind as actually playing with form and structure so does odb. kendrick's raps are totally mediocre, i have no idea why he mentioned them as being inventive in any way.

Rap is popular. Poetry is not. The more popular something becomes the worse it gets.

>>11951308
>The more popular something becomes the worse it gets.
wow. I can't refute this

>>11951308
>>11951311
this is actually exemplified in the novel and film The Beach.

>>11946863
love her scenes

>>11950137
You just gotta be yourself

>>11951051
If you see this when you get back, recommend me some rappers who showed promise prior to that 2000 decline in quality. I've been getting a little more into rap lately but I'm quite picky.

>>11951304
Thank you.

Sampled MF Doom. Agree he has more sophisticated structure.

Unsure whether he is unironic in his work.

Big problem because his subject matter mostly dont matter / his references &c are so antipseud NPC, they comeacross as, way i see / comicon consumpticon, mass kult pedestrian. / You dont know where he's been /, flava like a unlabled jellybean. / his jam not tastey / he poetasty.

It would be better if he is confirmed ironic AND rapped in this mocking pastichy way about rap and hiphop culture.

Using juvenile low-art like super heroes and kaiju as your main pallette is very postmodern. I find that very hard to admire.

Let me get out my rap display attaché case
Huh, cracking a backpack where landscapes take shapes
Romantically placed riverbeds
And copper heads, Cocker Spaniel companion
Blooms, canyon, lakes
There's no sky, just a colorful cry
Yellowjackets and hummingbirds, praying mantis country
Down yonder is a plum tree, scrumptious summer dreams
Makes me feel like...
Burning jasper, don't ask me why, just ask me why not
Apricot-cantalopue preserves
Serving spoon delight, birds steady flapping their wings
In a magnificent renaissance of flight
The recipient Ornette's swan song goes to the lazy dog
On the lawn under the weeping willow tree
He occasionally yawns (*yawn*)
Not the least bit curious on how he got here
Snow caps blanketing mount ubiquitous
Coniferous Cape Fear, reminds me how
Something my grandmother once wore while crocheting
I'm just saying, this is my junk drawer, bills and paystubs, erasers
Broken pencils, a yellow crayon, staples
Varied miscellaneous papers, a nine-volt battery
Calorie charts, varied random family photos
Menus, the nearest neighbourhood sandwich shop
Togo's, aren't I the darnedest writer
You've ever corresponded with? Bandwidth with?
I'll take your breath away 'til you're unable to make a wish
You're unable to make a wish

>>11947034
lol, blue pilled anon detected. If the image does not have any of the sexual parts of the human exposed or gore, then it's sfw. I agree with you that this image doesn't contribute to the discussion,except for the fact that she is black, but images don't always apply to the thread.

>>11951414
MF Doom is quite nice but he's still bad. I think he's ironic about some things, definitely about the whole cartoon thing, especially when black culture is about being the biggest monkey in the gang, he's just a black nerd rapping about his favorite cartoons n shit. Even when he talks about money n hoes n shit, it's in a ironic way like in Operation lifesaver. Still, he's far from being a good poet. There's simply no rap song that will ever be comparable to good or even decent poetry (i'll give you that: MF Doom and other rappers are definitely better than Rupi Kaur and instagram 'poetry' or whatever) What saves him is his fantastic taste for instrumentals, i do believe that he's simply far above any other rapper just because of this.
>Using juvenile low-art like super heroes and kaiju as your main pallette is very postmodern. I find that very hard to admire.
Agree. I think it was fun to do it in the 60s and 70s but this can't become a standard in art (it already did). Doom is the postmodern rapper and of course never read a book in his life, which is sad. If he had read Pynchon he'd see a lot of what he does was done better decades ago. Actually this goes for any author today. No one has improved over Ulysses yet.

>>11951414
mf doom is totally unironic. only retarded online music critics pretend like his rhymes are impenetrable or hard to understand. part of what makes him a truly great poet is the clarity of his writing. he is not rapping in a way that is meant as satire or to mock the pastiche of other rappers, doom relies on the clarity of thought and strength of will which shines through in his words.

I dont really appreciate your characterization as super heroes and kaiju as 'low art' (not that I am trying to rescue them from being denigrated in this manner, I just don't think it actually counts as analysis). Either way, he likes to use that imagery and sometimes will take on various persona from those worlds and use it a s a literary device. I don't see it as worthy of admiration or worthy of criticism, its just a means to an end.

>>11951544
No it isn't. The only times doom talks about shit like money and hoes is when he is giving the listener advice on those subjects, often he will caution them in a way that points out how mainstream rappers and culture are setting you up for failure if you actually listen to them.

I have no idea why you claim doom is 'post modern' in anyway, or why you go so far as to say he has never read a book in his life... that just seems idiotic to me. Doom has nothing to learn from trash like pynchon, because he has something important to tell the listener, his work isn't just charlatanry trying to convince you of its merit.

>>11951571
By low-art i dont mean that they are badly done. By no means. Only that they are targetted for mass appeal for profit motive; they work according to deadlines and tend not to explore or experiment for years once they think they have a cashcow formula. They are enslaved to tropes. This impairs the output into merely technical excellence much effort in anything else.

>MF Doom is unironic
Then he will take a lot of getting used to. He is quite different. Although the lack of depth in knowledge betrays his lack of passion in certain fandoms that he namedrops.

>>11951583
>The only times doom talks about shit like money and hoes is when he is giving the listener advice on those subjects
No, lmfao, you're taking these 'advices' from a fatass dressed as a cartoon villain. And even in character, it's a villain for fuck sake, he isn't giving any advice, he's just bragging. Tell me how Meat Grinder, Curls or Money Folder is 'serious advice' in any way. They are just your standard brag rap with some better though out rhymes. Though i will admit that i have only heard Madvillainy and King Geedorah, so you could be right about his early albums (which are pretty bad and you're a retard for taking it seriously).
>I have no idea why you claim doom is 'post modern' in anyway,
I don't know where you get the idea of his 'clarity of writing' since he is considered a "difficult rapper" (lmao) to understand among rap communities. No, he is rhyming in a way that is satire and mockery of mainstream rap and even himself. He's absolutely self aware about the 'muh underground' rapper who trashes the mainstream. This self awareness, pastiche, irony and intertextuality (with other 'art' figures like cartoons) are cores of postmodern art, which's why i say he is so.
>or why you go so far as to say he has never read a book in his life
It's fucking clear that he barely knows how to read. Have you seen any of his interviews? He speaks like a fucking 80IQ retard. I bet he doesn't even write his rhymes, he spits it out in a freestyle and then he writes to paper when going to record.
>his work isn't just charlatanry trying to convince you of its merit
I agree, since it has no merit, he doesn't need to try to convince me of how shit it is.

>>11947822
no he’s right, ive actually listened to the best rappers who ever lived extensively and its fucking atrocious compared to Shakespeare’s Sonnets. Absolutely insipid subhuman gesticulations in the void, nothing like what even the faggot romantics much less the moderns were capable of.

>>11951583
We are at least 2 different anons, anon.

I label him postmodern because he uses a pop-artish method of appropriating cultural artefacts, namedropping random memebanner stuff. Jello and Lightsabers, like that. Every block stanza has an average of 2 namedrops of this sort.

I'm left with a parade of floating symbols, maybe 4 verse lines of context for each one. His saving grace is he doest pseud too often; i think the popart process prevents him from taking himself too serious.

>>11951657
Ill admit Doom has some tracks where he is just bragging, those songs you mentioned are probably the least remarkable because they are just boastful poems like how you say, but that's not representative of most of his work.

Madvillainy is probably the record that least embodies what I'm talking about.
King Geedorah is fantastic though and is filled with examples of what I mean. The very first thing that is said in the record is "follow the light, the light is your guide". Then doom starts rapping, and he's telling you about how you can't trust anyone, but he makes an appeal to ethos about why you should listen to him and why his words are truthful. Then he goes on to say:

Geedorah like, "One more steps, and y'alls goners"
So-called rich, front if you wanna
When he spit electrics don't be in y'all saunas
He only here to warn us what the plan is
The hour is upon us, it's bananas
Born alone, die alone, no matter who your man is
Hope he live long enough to tell it to his grandkids

This is another warning about other rappers, and another appeal to ethos and the urgency of the matter for why you should listen to doom. Then he imparts a simple nugget of wisdom: "Born alone, die alone, no matter who your man is".

You are a serious retard for misinterpreting this as "not serious" or "ironic" or any of your other bullshit. "Intertextuality" lmfao.

> I don't know where you get the idea of his 'clarity of writing' since he is considered a "difficult rapper" (lmao) to understand among rap communities
I already told you that this is just something retarded critics say because they struggle to confront what doom is saying. Its just like how you are saying doom couldn't possibly be serious about anything he says, how he is mocking mainstream rap, even though the actual form of his lyrics do not resemble mainstream rap at all, and he is often explicitly criticizing mainstream rap with his words instead of satirizing it.

The rest of your post is just posturing

>>11951655
Im not a fan of comic books or anything like that but as I understand it there is plenty of work outside of the mainstream that doesn't have the qualities you are talking about, but either way I see what you are saying now.

I have no idea if doom 'lacks knowledge in certain fandoms' or whatever, thats probably not the standard according to which you should judge his work

>>11951691
His references aren't really the same types of references found in pop art (I mean the types of references and how they are used, and to what end), I also doubt his motives for using the language of pop culture are the same which motivated the works of pop artists. They are definitely not 'random'.

Describing his work as a "parade of floating symbols" is idiotic especially when you admit they are situated in the context of the surrounding verse immediately afterward. Do you know what is meant by a 'floating' symbol? Its the complete opposite of a symbol that is situated meaningfully in the context in which it appears. Often the references aren't even really symbols in the purest sense, they are strictly utilitarian.

Hopefully you see how this is way different than some pop artist who draws a picture of some soup cans, or just paints a single frame of a comic book totally out of context.

Rap and hip hop are the single shittiest genres of music in existence.

I'd rather listen to trance techno beepboop then common nigger music.

I dig Blues old Rock and such, but its a dying breed. Modern African American culture is fucking garbage, I can't overstate that enough.

>>11951325
As a scientist, can I have a sample for my studies?

>>11946863
Who is this walking, talking cum deposit?

>>11951769
>Modern African American culture is fucking garbage, I can't overstate that enough.

this. I can't tell where exactly they have regressed but musically it's been a downwards stride for a long time considering what they put out in the 60's and 70's.

>>11951717
Jesus christ nigga what a bunch of pseudry, you are seeing too much in a fat masked nigga rapping in the voice of Godzilla, you think "follow the light, the light is your guide" means anything but in truth Doom has only used it because it sounds cool. Also it's funny that you mention King Geedorah is "full of these examples" when Doom barely participates on King Geedorah at all, these would be testaments to other rappers, not Doom. As for Doom, the intro song, as always with him, snowballs into bullshitry and bragging:
King Geedorah, three-finger ring fever
Spring chicken eater, ID'ed as the ringleader
Who needs a heater? Catch 'em with bare hands
These same hands that make razors out beer cans
His own biggest fan
And got a fan base as big as Japan
Uh, yeah? And?
All hail the king, and give him three cheers, senpai!
Like "Hip, hip, hooray!"
Do his thing for the little kings like Sling Blade
To the grave, put in work like a slave
On how to flip scripts on the dipstick brigade
Rock 'em like "Sus-sussudio" played

Fucking lmfao dude, there's no deeper meaning other than "i'm a big monster and i rap well, see this shit". No bullshit against mainstream or whatever retarded stuff you think you see.
>appeal to ethos and the urgency of the matter for why you should listen to doom
This is NOT a drill! I repeat this is NOT a DRILL we need to listen to Geedorah right now:
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine, milli black
Listen to it go "bang!" Through and through a Kangol
A strange combination of a king who teach slang flow
Two-thirds slow, one-third amazing
Wonder words, fine sponsor of this Thunderbird occasion
And have an iller rhyme, at least by Miller Time
Collect the skrilla, and geese with a killer dime
Met her out in Killa Queens, originally she from the Philippines
I love the way she fill her jeans

Here's a great attack on the industry:
Let the music take control
Just don't let the evildoers abuse it and use it to take your soul
>Then he imparts a simple nugget of wisdom: "Born alone, die alone, no matter who your man is".
Damn... truly the black Yeats, the chocolate Shakespeare, the melanin Joyce of our generation.

>>11951754
Ok, point accepted.

I say floating symbols between 4 verse lines; doesnt mean the symbol is appropriate enough to be immd understood or wellexplained.

But i get it that this is the method/constraint of (most) rap.

I defer to your reading that he is ironic; i honestly can't tell. On that note, however, do you have any defense when i point out that he escapes being a cookiecut clone only by being a thematic parasite? The convenient symbol grabbing frees him from original expression. It's like talking in memes. Easy both as a technique and a poeticvoice-conceit.

best hip hop/rap is from france and russia, literary languages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO3PV69s8u0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7xP0yIBlfU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aesD9YukDCI

>>11951819
google translate doesnt do nay justice

I would have liked my animals to talk, my toys to come alive in the park,
That geese cling to the boats, confiscating their limits to the cards,
In order to never again display this dirty opaque mine,
I feel frozen in a sudden rupture of the myocardium.
I'm told that in my fourth life, my status is that of arti,
In both cases, I'm not happy because the evil is not Morearti.
Party like Belle and Sebastian of a beautiful mountain pasture,
I abandoned the holy age, becoming a musher in a hitch deficit.
It lets you loose overnight, innocence breaks,
All our senses are skewed, childhood is kissing you, adult life is fucking you.
Uncultivated girls please you, despite a handful of wild roses,
The refusal hurts you, dreams disabled like Clémentine.
Canteen for all, water games, ricochets do splash,
Suck his thumb, then the judo classes, all those thoughts are sweet.
We suffer from this life that is deteriorating, I forgot to save.
This armor on land does not belong to the Knights of Asgard.

Between a dungeon and a dragon, I met the genie, skirted the lagoon with Matt and Jenny
Given the same name to so many heifers.
The ineptitudes of La Noiraude I miss, the pain tears me, flanks me.
A cockroach behind I do not know what complaint is hiding.
It is wobbly, finished this time when one says oneself: there is only to laugh,
Forgetting Yakari, now at every ball, we see Carrie.
We think we are square because at fifteen we acquire the booster,
It makes me laugh, I pedaled still dreaming of Punky Brooster.
In this cold air and those lyrix that have a taste of metal,
Hides a heart of Demetan, dreaming of love under petals.
Under his pedals, the speed time my life, turns into a tomb my zik,
106 or Twingo, I'm starting, I want a magic Boumbo.
I'm agitated in this whirlwind like Buck Rogers,
Worried by remorse, I dreamed of something else, all my plans died.
The imagination in high doses has shown its twist,
The analogy of life and reverie is digitized, all sounds twist.


I want to be rocked by the wind in the alders,
Pilot the condor, chew these fruits harvested by others.
But the hosts of this dark abode, vile assholes,
Desiring everyone to become the most powerful of all Duck Towns.
Alvin, Simon, Théodore, a eggnog and its smell,
A kiss from our mother and we sleep, then we become the author
Endless epics, long before they become ugly.
Happy and sad, my memories are mestizo, and their ashes are my records.
The risks to be affected too late on the air of Cadichon,
It is to live hostage without being told of a world where everything is only addiction.
A nerd condition, to be piquet every day,
What is robbed is much more serious than the little soldiers being stung.
Complicated, me my nanny, it was the Muppets Babys,
Gaga was named the comforter, childish remained my nonsense.
Now I'm Bumblebee, Decepticon slave,
But your fire bull will never reach my last unicorn.

>>11946863
Ahhh I want to fuck a black chick

>tfw hooked up with my first black girl this summer

>>11951785
I have no idea why you mention that doom isnt present on all the tracks. obviously if we are talking about doom we are talking about his verses not other people's verses so what you said goes without saying.

Youre reading of these lyrics is pretty stupid. What exactly is bragging about saying hes his own biggest fan. Or that his fan base is as big as japan, and then asking ironically, "uh, yeah? and?". And when he says "give him three cheers senpai!" with clear irony. Then he starts talking about how hard he works on his music.

> Fucking lmfao dude, there's no deeper meaning other than "i'm a big monster and i rap well, see this shit". No bullshit against mainstream or whatever retarded stuff you think you see.
Lol, you just literally can't read and understand whats right in front of you. Im not saying doom never brags or messes around but thats not really the core of his work at all, as I've demonstrated.

> Damn... truly the black Yeats, the chocolate Shakespeare, the melanin Joyce of our generation.
Whatever lol you can say you think its stupid but it doesn't change what it is, you're totally wrong when you say he is a whacky random or whatever the fuck retarded interpretation you are giving. You know you are wrong which is why you are relying on rhetoric like this.

>>11951806
Im saying that he is NOT ironic.

I would say he escapes being cookie cutter by merit of his clarity of expression, the unique way he uses meter, the unique structures he includes in his poems sometimes, his playfulness and willingness to use words and themes people normally wouldn't use to discuss the subjects he talks about (like on MM FOOD), his sense of humor, the actual things he says in his poetry, and much more.

You are way overstating his reliance on referencing symbols from pop culture or whatever, he's in no way a thematic parasite. He routinely engages in original expression, like I already told you, the references are strictly utilitarian, often used allegorically to help convey an idea, they aren't central elements of the work.

Actually check out his work, you'll see it's not a big part of the work at all (especially not later on in his career).

>>11952008
>>11951843
>Used to be engaged to a black girl that looked a little like the one in OP
>Thin to average build, C cup tiddies, nice round ass, cute face and a big smile
>Fucked it all up because I literally couldn't stop myself cheating on her with every other hot girl I met
>They were all also black
>Feel into /pol/ while I was impressionable due to not caring about much and being uneducated about the world
>Convinced I was running my life by being with these black girls
>Finally admit I was cheating and that I wanted to leave her, even telling her I wanted to leave her because I didn't want half black kids
>Realize what I did a week later and try to get her back
>She refuses obviously and I have a complete breakdown because I gave up a good happy future with a very attractive girl who was also in law school at the time because I was a retarded /pol/ack circa 2012 /pol/
>After a year of alcoholism and suicide attempts at the realizations that I'm ACTUALLY the most dumb person alive finally settle for another girl
>Fat, emotionally damaged Korean girl
>She's also bad at sex and didn't have many interests
>Settle because I'm afraid I'll never be able to do better
She really loved me unconditionally up until that point bros. Like I said she was in law school and I just worked in a warehouse. She didn't care about that or the racial issues, she just wanted me for me and for us to be happy together. I gave it all up. My Korean wife is addicted to some video game and doesn't do any chores and has a mediocre job. We haven't had sex in two weeks. I pray every night that I wake up on that day I told my ex all those things just so I could go back and fix it.

>>11952011
>I have no idea why you mention that doom isnt present on all the tracks. obviously if we are talking about doom we are talking about his verses not other people's verses so what you said goes without saying.
You said that King Geedorah was full of these examples, but Doom appearances are few and between and he does appear he spills out trash like what i mentioned. I'm searching here for the countless examples.
>What exactly is bragging about saying hes his own biggest fan
It's about his size since he's a fucking giant monster and of course about his "talent".
>Then he starts talking about how hard he works on his music
Exactly, he has few appearances on the album and when he has the chance to say something meaningful all he can mutter is "uh like dude i work a lot mmkay?" Who gives a shit this is retarded and meaningless.
>Lol, you just literally can't read and understand whats right in front of you. Im not saying doom never brags or messes around but thats not really the core of his work at all, as I've demonstrated.
Most if not all of the songs were meaningless brag bullshit. It's pretty obvious that he doesn't have the talent to talk about anything else. Meaningless brag is MF Doom's core and you're really dumb for seeing "deep" meanings in it. I'm listening right now to an early album of his, so far it is pretty bad. One of the first songs:
Joking rhymes, like the "Is you just happy to see me?" trick
Classical slapstick rappers need Chapstick
A lot of 'em sound like they in a talent show
So I give 'em something to remember like the Alamo
Tally-ho! A high Joker like a Spades game
Came back from five years laying and stayed the same

I hold the mic, like niggas hold their girls tight
But I ain't after her, probably your Acura pearl white
The hooker? Nah, as many times as I done hit it
To be specific more times than dimes in a briz-nick
When you broke North, I crashed the barbecue like Riddick
At the Garden, true, that's the God in me, pardon you
Jeepers! I was tore back, the ho gained access to my beeper
Called back my secretary gatekeeper
Like I ain't peep her, I said, "Darling you was stupid though
You know the Super Villain, (He is a super) ho"

Imagine actually thinking this is deep and good poetry

>>11952085
damn, that's tragic. now you're going to have a lil eliot rodger in your bloodline when you could have colonized a jungle nigress. you deserve it nigga

>>11948322
>npc as a buzzword
Dont do this kids

>>11952096
I consider suicide every day still. She just got married to some guy who apparently makes a ton of money and is asleep semipro power lifter. She looked just as beautiful as I remember her in her wedding photos.

>>11952085
This but unironically

>>11952085
You know what they say, "go on /pol/, pay the toll"

>>11952142
Ironically I was full fledged liberal up until that point so I have no idea why I took what they spouted and ran with it. She was fast more conservative than I was on basically every issue.

>>11952131
Sorry son but it's the truth. I still try to close my eyes and imagine it's her in bed next to me and not my wife

>>11951051
um no sweetie yeezus came out in 2013

>>11952086
> You said that King Geedorah was full of these examples, but Doom appearances are few and between and he does appear he spills out trash like what i mentioned
I have no idea why you keep saying this, obviously we are talking about his verses on the record only, the amount of space between them on the record is irrelevant when we are talking about his poetry specifically.

Like are you trying to argue that I said it was full of examples of what I meant, but you dont think doom raps enough on the record for it to meet the definition of "full of", a completely subjective term? If so... goddamn, use your fucking brain when talking to others. I really don't fucking care about arguing with you about the meaning of the word 'full', I have no idea how fucking stupid you must be to press this weak ass 'point' so hard. Please tell me this isn't what you were actually arguing.

> It's about his size since he's a fucking giant monster and of course about his "talent".
To be one's own biggest fan is a common colloquialism with an obvious meaning, I am actually sorry for you that you do not understand this. Sorry, I can't help you here.

> Exactly, he has few appearances on the album and when he has the chance to say something meaningful all he can mutter is "uh like dude i work a lot mmkay?" Who gives a shit this is retarded and meaningless.
Not exactly, its a counter example to what you claimed originally.

I already posted examples from the first song on the record explaining examples of how doom's lyrics are more than just boasts, we could do more but I don't care to because you come across as a total dumb ass. Like the level of reasoning you are capable of is just saying that doom has some songs or verses where he boasts so all of his other verses are nothing more than boasts, I really have no interest in discussing this with you.

>>11952085
> even telling her I wanted to leave her because I didn't want half black kids
half-black kid >>>>>> half-korean-half-white kid

Your logic makes no sense.

>>11952222
>Like are you trying to argue that I said it was full of examples of what I meant, but you dont think doom raps enough on the record for it to meet the definition of "full of", a completely subjective term?
I keked a lil at this post, you legit seem to be autistic. They normally seem to only operate at really basic logic, so let me break this for you
>you originally said something (that i'm not bothering to check) about how doom would give advice and shit on mainstream rappers or whatever about how you'll be a failure if you listen to them
>then i sad that no, as far as this record is concerned, he doesn't.
>but king geedora tho, is full with these examples - you said
>ok let's see then, first i'll point out that he raps only 3 or 4 times, that's a really small number. notice that i didn't make this central my point.
>let's then analyze the songs, to see if they are brimming with 'advices' and deep poetry about the human existence and the mainstream rap or whatever
>well, they don't. you see, they are meaningless bragging bullshit or just your standard rap story. there's nothing of worth here
>therefore, the work isn't 'full' of examples that you said so

I'm still looking for what important thing Doom has to say to me. I've listened to Operation Doomsday and so far nothing. Not much excited to listen to MM Food or Viktor Vaughn. But who knows huh, maybe he finally read a book and has something of worth to tell me in those projects
>To be one's own biggest fan is a common colloquialism with an obvious meaning, I am actually sorry for you that you do not understand this.

>phrases can't have multiple meanings because i said so

>Not exactly, its a counter example to what you claimed originally.
"i work a lot mkay i'm not like these DUMBstream rappers who just spit out shit" is bragging too, anon.
>. Like the level of reasoning you are capable of is just saying that doom has some songs or verses where he boasts
Hmm, no. That was not what i said at all. I said that bragging and snowballing into meaningless, meandering bullshit is a core feature of Doom that was presented in most of the songs that i've listened and posted in the thread. Come on, two of his most loved albums are like that. He comes across as pueril, a non entity, in all of these songs and you want me to believe that he's a genius or whatever? I'm sure he can do more than boasts, as he does in "Strange Ways". It's one of his better songs actually. But even then, you think that "uuh you know, maybe we shouldn't bomb the middle east or whatever" is a deep and profound insight? Or that y'know, "maybe the thugh has a reason to be doing this wrong thing, lets think about this ok" is a new point of view in the issue of poverty and violence? They aren't.

>>11946863
she cute but does she fuck white boys who spend a lot of time arguing about books and their bindings on the internet??? askin for a friend

>>11952056
Thank you for your patience.

Please excuse.

I'm really not up to speed with him, in that case.

MF is an undersung genius.

T. Normie pseud cringeworth

>>11952085
probably not true but if it is then you literally did this to yourself and no self-pity is going to get you out of it.

If you don't like her, divorce her. No point in settling down with someone who you don't like. It's that whole situation of being in a relationship with someone just because you're desperate for a relationship. That's the wrong reason and mentally damaging.

If you do have some love for your wife, talk it out with her and tell her to pull her weight. If she refuses and is too stubborn then for your own mental health you need to divorce her.

Also cut out the conspiratorial racial bullshit, you fucking mong. "I didn't want half black kids" is literally the thing that's killed your chance at happiness (as well as being a serial adulterer). People on 4chan say that kind of shit because nobody would touch their dicks anyway, and being anonymous they feel protected behind their keyboards, but the first moment that the 4chan /pol/-tier skeptic shit seeps into IRL and you ACTUALLY believe it, you're fucked, pal.

>>11950037
Wtf Eddie Murphy got breast implants?

>>11952422
>but the first moment that the 4chan /pol/-tier skeptic shit seeps into IRL and you ACTUALLY believe it, you're fucked, pal
I know, see >>11952162. I didn't have a single /pol/ view but for whatever reason I ate that shit up.

Trust me I've thought it over a lot and I hear what you're saying. I consider it penitence at this point. But I hear you. Besides I don't worry about my mental health. It's too expensive, I was charged over $10K when I tried to kill myself from hospital bills, and that's after insurance.

>>11946863
>think this girl is really cute and attractive
>reverse image search her
>she goes around rimming the assholes of men and then exchanging semi-shit fluids mouth to mouth with another girl
Well, alright then.

No one has come up with any definitions of poetry that don't include rap yet.

Wonder why

>>11950683
nah. he's got too much melanin in his brain.

>>11949990
>>11951531
The shirt says "I fuck white boys" and it is a literal advertisement to a pornography website and the image itself is intended to be sexually provocative. It is the definition of "Not Safe For Work".

>>11952281
>half-black kid >>>>>> half-korean-half-white kid
Lol no. Having a beta son is a lot better than a criminal.

>>11953154
if my boss walked up to me and saw i was looking at that pic he'd high five me, what kinda shit workplace environment do you work in anon?

>>11951051
>The poets of our times seem to generally prefer to use words enigmatically for emotional effect, using symbols without meaning, in an attempt to provide a catharsis beyond reason
This has been going on since around the beginning of the 20th century, and I doubt it has to do with any feminization. That is, under the assumption that the phenomenon we're discussing is poetic obscurity, which A.K. Moore has treated in depth in an essay called 'The Case for poetic Obscurity', see for example:
>'The modern poet prefers a concourse of images which, in consequence of multiple of multiple reference, achieves maximum suggestiveness'
This is in contrast to the poets of previous centuries, e.g.: 'The Metaphysicals and romantics (sic) -- to cite modern instances -- purged poetic language of a great deal of overripe elegance and disclosed surprising new idioms; but they did not, for all their alterations, depart significantly from the manuals of style'.
A central point here is the 'vocational and sociological bias of modern education [...] rapidly emptying the classical trivium of any content particularly useful to serious literature, that is, the fall from grace of the classical curriculum with the Greeks, classical rhetoric, etc., and the demise of classical rhetoric is in turn connected to the rise/revival of sincerity, with which rhetoric is traditionally contrasted. And to be sure, I'm in no way calling you a misogynist, I really don't give two flying fucks in this regard.

>>11947785
You seem to be confused. Do you not realise that poetry (let's be honest here, no need for any unnecessary capitalisations and making yourself look like a snob) is a direct result of the music style we now call rap? Of course, the first iteration of rap music wasn't as complex or refined as it is today, but poetry is a direct result of people 'talking' over music.

Now, as you are so very clearly an expert on the topic, you probably know that music predates poetry by more than 100.000 years. Poetry only appeared in our history a couple thousand years BC. Music's been rooted into our brains since our early stages of evolution, so it seems only logical that poetry was inspired by the stories and experiences our ancestors told each other over music. Poetry took those stories and refined them in its own, unique way. Of course, I don't disagree that there's a big difference, but looking down upon the early roots of rap while keeping up your pretentious, unknowing manners surrounding poetry is something I find odd and, honestly, quite insulting.

You are entitled to your own opinion, as we all are, but please show respect where it is due.

>>11953638
woops, forgot to add end quotes to
>'vocational and sociological bias of modern education [...] rapidly emptying the classical trivium of any content particularly useful to serious literature[']

>>11953512
Then you're free to browse some sexual board. This isn't the place for a lewd pornography advertisement.

>>11952281
obviously
anon went through a year if depression before he came to the realization he was being a brain dead pol edge lord
now he feels he has to settle for a gross Korean chick because he wasn't good enough to hold onto the ebony goddess

>>11954329
Pretty much

>>11954365
beat of luck bro. if you can done it once you can do it again. at least know you'll know what not to do wrong

>>11954389
Nah, I'm stuck. Too old to go chasing girls. Especially of her caliber. No attractive, fit lawyer will want a $50k a year accountant

>>11953641
Comparing rap to ancient poetry is vacuous and ahistorical in the extreme.

>and, honestly, quite insulting
Get a grip

>>11950713
>>uses ebonics
>Dropped.
WAAH WAAH, I DON'T LIKE YOUR ACCENT OR DIALECT SO I'M NOT GOING TO CARE ABOUT ANYTHING YOU CREATE THAT MIGHT BE INTERESTING.
Do you hate the irish, scottish and the welsh too?
Are you one of those sticks in the mud that can't appreciate that minor differences like dialect or accent can add character to a piece?

>>11954422
There's proper English and there's niggerspeak. It's not even a matter of accents or dialects.

>>11954422
Probably the most pathetic post in this thread.

>>11951063
>You notice how rappers so seldom rap about any kind of self-doubt?
maybe the trash rappers you listen to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU-BBqx8Lv0

>>11954422
Maybe he just doens't like the sound of it. I find some accents very harsh and grating.

>>11954422
No black that ever produced something good spoke in niggerspeak.

>>11952085
>>Fucked it all up because I literally couldn't stop myself cheating on her with every other hot girl I met
you could stop, it was your choice to cheat on her.
don't make excuses.

>>11954458
>trash rappers you listen to
>posts a trash song with trash lyrics written and performed by a trash rapper
gee

>>11954400
It really isn't, only in terms of quality. You'll never get me to admit that Homer has an equal in any rapper past or present, but it's 'poetry' all the same -- and I 'all the same' as in foregoing critical judgments and stuff like division (sub-)genres like epic poetry, hood poetry, gangsta poetry, or whatever. Revisit this thread and I'm pretty sure you'll discover no one has provided an argument as to why rap is not poetry, they've only argued that it is bad or worse, that a catchy beat supersedes and cheapens the poetry, that the rappers' reflections are shallow, etc. -- and based on my experience I wholeheartedly agree, but this really changes nothing. This anon here >>11948163 even flat out admits that he hasn't a good answer for the thread.
But yes the other other anon should get a grip, the last bit is slightly snarky and also cliche.

>>11953661
Go back to your safe space (Reddit) and never come back, fag.

>>11955675
Reddit has more porn than any other community website. What the Fuck are you talking about?

>>11946863
rap is set to music, poetry is not

>>11955801
Go back to your awful safe space (Facebook) and never come back, fag.

>>11956450
>dude I'm manly and not a fag because I look at porn

"No sin has greater power over the soul than the one of cursed sodomy, which was always detested by all those who lived according to God's law. ...

Such passion for untenable practices borders on madness. This vice disturbs the intellect, unbalances an elevated and generous state of soul, drags lofty thoughts down to base ones, makes men pusillanimous and irascible, obstinate and hardened, servilely soft and incapable of anything.

Furthermore, the will, agitated by the insatiable drive for pleasure, no longer follows reason but rather the tumult of the passions. ...

One who lives practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pain in Hell than anyone else, because this the worst sin that exists. "


>Furthermore, the will, agitated by the insatiable drive for pleasure, no longer follows reason but rather the tumult of the passions. ...
You're closer to being a fag because you're controlled by pixels on a screen than someone who knows better. Fags are sex obsessed bugmen like yourself.

>>11956486
No one's reading that. Autism to the mooooooon.

>>11956489
It was a quote that was copied and pasted, moron. Since you have no interest in reading, go fuck off back to one of your pornography boards.

>>11956486
>wearing a shirt that has explicit words and links to a porn site is considered nsfw.
Anon, there are people at my university who walk around my campus with pornhub t-shirts, ironically I hope, and don't get told shit by anyone because nobody cares what you wears. There is absolutely nothing nsfw of a beautiful black female wearing a shirt that promotes pornography. If the image doesn't have tits, vaginas, penis, or gore it is nsfw. If you plan to stay here, please at the very least become sane.

>>11956547
>is nsfw >> is sfw

>>11956486
>christposting 2018

>>11956547
>There is absolutely nothing nsfw of a beautiful black female wearing a shirt that promotes pornography.

>>11946863
We left /mu/ for a reason, there’s already a rap containment board. The difference is a melody. If all poetry is now considered “literature” then why talk about it? Poetry died after WW2, and was replaced by music which has its own merits but is not poetry. I think music can be poetic, but that doesn’t make it poetry.

>>11956556
>having the urge to go on 4chan whilst at work
That’s the biggest brainlet here :thinking:

>>11956580
>the only reason to be opposed to NSFW material is because you're at work.

>>11956586
>getting triggered enough by an image whilst not at work enough to want it deleted even though it doesn’t even show nipples or vag but rather because of a word

>>11946863
music you fucking idiot

>>11953638
It can be argued the early 20th century was the beginning of the feminization of our society, yet what you've provided is interesting and something I'm unfamiliar with. Thank you for your response. I'd like to read more about it. I am uncertain we are discussing precisely the same phenomena, though there is definitely overlap.

>>11954477
Possibly true, as far as speaking goes, and you could use less antagonistic language with no loss of meaning, but there are talented black poets whos writting is clearly influenced by African American vernacular. Patricia Smith is one. The problem I have with most talented black writers is that they only write about being black.

>>11956615
Glad to contribute. I'm also not certain we're talking about the same thing but if you want to know more about the stuff I mentioned I can very much recommend A.K. Moore's collection, 'Contestable Theories of Literary Theory' (Louisiana State Uni Press), if you can find it in your library. Together, the essays touch on most major problems of literary criticism up to the date of Moore's publication (1973?), and he's not smug about his opinions, all the theories he presents remain 'contestable'. Here's the contents, maybe they'll pique your interest:
>I. Lyric Voices and Ethical Proofs
>II. Lyric Personae and Prying Critics
>III. Rhetoric's Wrung Neck.
>IV. The Case for Poetic Obscurity
>V. The Literary Status of the English Popular Ballad.
>IV. Medieval English Literature and the Question of Unity.
>VII. Formalist Criticism and Literary Form.
>VIII. The Instruments of Oracular Expression.
>IX . The Theoretical Liabilities of Literary Criticism.

>>11956486
Where was that quote taken from?

>>11947548

>Homer didn't write about muh dIcK n hoes n shieet

t. hasn't read the illiad

>>11956670
St. Bernardine of Siena, Predica 39 in Le Prediche Volgari, Milan: Rizzoli, 1936, pp. 869-71,

>>11956670
A quick online search would tell you that it's St. Bernadine, taken to heart by a certain neo-puritan christposter
>>/lit/thread/11895557

>>11947548

The part you quoted is easily the weakest on the entire album, but I'm sure you did that on purpose 1

tempo

https://youtu.be/8lsDuWzIvQw
more aesthetically crafted than your favorite poet

>>11947034
I stand with anon.

>>11946863
Having a beat

>>11947081
>>11949091
>>11949499
Collection, dissemination. When a rapper memories a fourteen hour screed about his life and performer it over three days, no matter what the content is, I'll proudly back the merit of that oral culture and make an award with as much significance as the nobel just to praise it, and if it ever gets transcribed, I'd praise that literature.

Music as literature means neither has merit and that pomo omni-empathy has destroyed the beauty of hate and antagonism to the point that no one individual can write to affect change. The age of art is over.

The Panopticon is perfect.
The Colosseum is beautiful.

Back to the Greeks.

Speaking of Oral cultures, how's that Odduhsea you bout to drop?

>>11954481
>only in terms of quality
These are the only terms that matter. Nitpicking about medium classification is the most retarded of endeavours.

>>11957209
sure

>>11954422
>>11954443
>>11954469
>>11954477
We get it you hate every thing thats black.

>>11946863
whenever I want to insult someone that likes rap. The suburban white kid backs off it when compared to poetry and makes him feel less hard for listening to it

>>11946863
Besides being accompanied with music; rappers have to pay attention to their flow which isn't only about speed, but about matching the beat.
t. unironic fan of hip-hop

>>11959010
>implying rhapsodes didnt perform to music