/lit/ - Literature

Yep

Conservative /lit/ discord, if you are interested
https://discord.gg/c5Vga4E

its reactionary bullshit. liberalism has triumphed and we're living in the greatest period of wealth ever.

>>11839354
cringe

>>11839377
just TRY to prove me wrong, you absolute faggot.

>>11839354
>>11839466
We're suicidal, depressed, morbidly obese, hedonistic, nihilistic, pointless, soulless and culture-less, but hey, at least we have money!!

>>11839212
Obviously not worth reading since liberalism has conquered the globe.

No, read Marx.

>>11839481
>we

>>11839494
>the world isn't a liberal globalist shithole

>>11839481
It still didn’t fail. Liberalism is a thinly veiled social system for capitalism and capitalism is marching on just like it has before. Of course like everything that capitalism uses to spread itself, it will be tossed aside once it’s stopped being useful. However, as an ideology, liberalism triumphed. It conquered the world, defeated the old regime, defeated the reactionaries, defeated the tribalists, defeated the fascists, defeated the communists, and everything in between.

>>11839354
>>11839486
>>11839555
Anyone saying Liberal Capitalism failed is a fool, it's clearly very strong.
What you should fear is it's strength, because what gives it strength is what has zero loyalty to your nation. International Finance is incredibly efficient at meeting it's ends, it's it's ends that you should be critical of.

https://youtu.be/Isq6YltjRRU

>>11839481
>suicidal
sounds like a personal problem
>depressed
sounds like a personal problem
>morbidly obese
sounds like a personal problem. go exercise
>hedonistic
sounds like a personal problem. get some values, read some Marcus Aurelius.
>nihilistic
sounds like a personal problem
>pointless
so there'd be a point without liberalism. lol. life is what you make of it, senpai.
>soulless
sounds like a personal problem.
>culture-less
wrong.

try again, sweetie.

>>11839593
>dismissing everything as a "personal" problem of the atomic "individual"
case in point

>>11839612
>the "hurr society rules over you" spook
kindly gas yourself.
the individual is the foundation of Western civilization.

>>11839612
Because they are,the world owes nothing to you.
If you cant find your own place within it then that's your problem.

>>11839481
always been that way, reactionary edgelords only think "muh western civilizashun wuz no menal health n shieet"

>>11839679
t. ayn rand

>>11839577
Almost there, national finance will destroy you just as easily. Although I agree that Internationalism has been a sort of Pied Piper to socialism in the modern era.

>>11839615
peterson is a hack

>>11839679
it might not "owe" nothing to you, but it created you and is reflected in you. a change in the individual is not prior to the change in the world

>>11839936
it might not "owe" anything to you*

>>11839615
>the individual is the foundation of Western civilization.

people actually think this gibberish means something.

its got one of those reductive, eye-catching, "polemicist" titles.....so its probably shit

>>11839354
Here to take a wink at the Pink

Wheres the chad neoliberal pic.

>>11839212
The problem with all of these critiques of liberalism is that they are grounded in effects rather than essence. And, as such, the critique remains within the territory of its object - false solutions necessarily following from this.
If you want to understand why these contradictions arise in the first place, read this:
https://mandalietmandaliet.blogspot.com/2018/09/instead-of-thesis-short-letter-against.html

>>11839498
No, unfortunately, it's mostly non-liberal shitholes with some liberal areas which are paradise by comparison.

>>11839593
Perfect bait

>>11839354
>>11839466

Wrong. The boomers lived in the period of the greatest period of wealth ever and that was built for them by the previous generations in the West who were unapologetically white nationalists. Since then there's been a decrease in prosperity in generations in Western countries as we've embraced multiculturalism and the ethnic replacement of Whites in our countries and things are getting worse.

>>11839354
even fukuyama doesn't believe this shit anymore lmao

enjoy being outcompeted by the chinese

>>11839593

>dying of starvation
sounds like a personal problem
>can't get decent entry level jobs because the market is flooded with shitskins and wages have been debased
sounds like a personal problem
>80% of women are soiled whores
sounds like a personal problem
>housing is 10x the price it should be and young people have been priced out of the market
sounds like a personal problem
>education is 10x the price it should be and sets many young adults for decades or even an entire life time of debt
sounds like a personal problem
>somebody has more money than me
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH capitalism is evil tax him more NOW!!!!

Liberals are fucking retarded.

>>11842037
you are vintage we live in a society thinker

>>11839354
Economic neo-liberalism reigns.

But all other core aspects of liberalism are dying or dead.
>Freedom of Speech
>Individualism
>Secularism
>Tolerance of conflicting views points
>equal treatment under the law
>equal opportunities (not outcomes)
>presumption of innocence

Those cretins in the US who call themselves liberals are nothing more than useful idiots. I doubt they could even describe what liberal means besides "left leaning good guy". Don't get me started on the UK and continental Europe.

>>11839593
Those are personal problems that should not be solved by the state, but rather by individuals.

>>11839486
>>11839466
>>11839354
Are you even going to try? His primary argument is that the things that people point to as failing points of liberalism (wealth inequality, feelings of antisocial alienation, endless trivial consumerism replacing culture) are a result of liberalism succeeding rather than failing. At the very least read the dust jacket so you can pretend you understand the premise before you decide to dismiss it you neoliberal faggot.

>>11839481
you are maybe. the strong are doing just fine, social darwinism in action

>>11842593
Your perception of "the strong" is pretty debased. All economies fundamentally are planned, none of "the strong" in the modern economy occur naturally rather than as intentional (or unintentional) consequences of intentional political/economic policies.

>>11839212
The amazon reviews sum up the book unsurprisingly. Most of it is bullet pointed NRx talking points. If you're allready familiar with those talking points then there's nothing very new being said.

if you seriously think liberalism is what causes consumerism and that authoritarian controls would solve that problem, go spend a couple years in China.

>>11842714
I think you probably meant to reply to me. Sure, China has consumerism, but the United States has replaced it's cultural output and traditional social organization with consumerism. China has consumerism, but the Chinese still have a collective identity to which they take pride and feel they belong. The United States has taken the cultural and traditional institutions that shaped the American identity and replaced it with the collection of consumer goods.

>>11839555
>Liberalism is a thinly veiled social system for capitalism
No it isn't.

>>11842743
>but the Chinese still have a collective identity to which they take pride and feel they belong.
You've clearly never been to China. Nothing is more expendable than their fellow country men. Collective identity? The Chinese fuck over their own in the most heinous ways for profit, we're talking about a people who sell fake eggs and tainted baby formula without batting an eye.

>>11839354
>and we're living in the greatest period of wealth ever.
Per capita? Certainly not. Your terms are incredibly misleading and largely meaningless, they're just empty posturing.

>>11841944
>they're "paradise" because theyre liberal
Bit of a leap in logic there

>>11842084
>hold your highest values as individual liberty, human happiness, freedom of expression and continual progression towards this
>couple this with capitalism that will stop for nothing in its quest for capital destroying all traditional values to open up more markets
>surprised that your original values birthed in christian culture are annihilated and you now live in a cultureless borderline state enforced debauchery and identity politics hellscape

>>11839612
Hey I look after my family and my mates, not my fault some unconnected autist on the internet in a different country hasn't built connections with people like the rest of us. You guys are literally exceptions, the rest of us still go to the pub after a hard hot day of work like men should away from women to keep eachother sane and in the game.

The people responsible for Liberalism will mostly die out within a century or so, due to liberalism. Can this be considered a success?

>>11842743
>Chinese still have a collective identity to which they take pride and feel they belong
>collective
As collective as Europeans lmao

Which Liberalism?

>>11843052
we're becoming increasingly inclined towards socialistic fascism

>rise of nationalism
>centralized market
>new depression on the way with automation allowing some revolution to take place
>only solution will be basic income
>the only way to efficiently combat nearing totalitarian states like china will be to copy them
>multiculturalism is only going to cause more tension and foster tribalism

>>11843082
>rise of nationalism
More "return to attitudes considered to be moderately left-wing, pre-Hitler."
>centralized market
What does this mean?
>new depression
This has more to do with tanking populations due to low birth rates. Why do you think foreigners are being pumped into liberal countries?
>only solution will be basic income
We probably won't see mass unemployment due to automation. Instead, those jobs that are outsourced to the third-world will just be automated instead, since labor arbitrage is all those countries really have going for them.
>the only way to efficiently combat nearing totalitarian states like china will be to copy them
China has plenty of its own problems, and its social credit system will be LESS dystopian than whatever our Progressive elites will think up, I guarantee that.
>multiculturalism causes tension and tribalism
Not exactly a surprise. Note that the cultures in question have to be continually agitated for the purposes of elections in liberal societies.

I would say that Western, non-East Euro countries are appraoching something resembling the a rerun of the Ancien Regime than fascism, except with an aristocracy of money/education instead of blood. Universities replace the clergy, ethnic minorities replace the nobility. Courts will simultaneously block reforms AND protect the moneyed/educated aristocracy by using privilege theory, critical race theory, critical criminology, etc. to justify the behavior of the ignobility, use them as shields for their corporations and status, and then invite them to retaliate against "reactionaries" - then decline to prosecute the offenders. You see this in the US already where states like MA and CA are declining to prosecute minor crimes.

>>11842859
Nice, another invocation of the sneaky asian racist stereotype.
Is it any wonder you folks are so confused by how China is overtaking you as the world superpower with a command economy?

>>11843082
> automation
> only solution will be basic income
I can't wait for you idiots to be proven completely wrong. I can't wait for automation to free up labour for more important things, to free us from the mundane, reduce the cost of living exponentially and for UBI to be a complete unmitigated disaster. I just wish I had a fast-forward button.

>>11839212
Liberalism failed because the left can't meme. There, I saved you the trouble of reading it.

>>11843138
It's not a stereotype, this kind of opportuinistic indifference is rampart in China all thanks to the dehumanization and de-culturing programs of the communists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
You folks? Confused? China beating us? Shit, man, you're operating on so many ad-hominem styled non-arguments I don't know where to start. Probably by not bothering.

>>11839615
Philosophers have torn liberal individualism to shreds for the past two centuries, maybe you should read some of them

>>11842391
go home, lobster boy.

>>11839212
It's a phenomenal read, if you like it check out After Virtue.

I'm scared dude, as shit as liberalism is shit could get way worse. I really don't want to fall for the tribalism spook but fuck dude if shit really hits the fan idk man

>>11839354
>reactionary
Deneen's literal tells us not to go back to any 'traditionalist' ideology you dumb fucking retard. He's a communitarian with some implied distributism.

Read the book you monkey.

>>11843396
>communitarian
>distributism
no thanks. i believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a capitalistic world. fuck commie bs

>>11839577
I wish Mosley had stayed in the Labour Party and been less susceptible to mixing good ideas with crank ideas. Best Prime Minister the UK never had.

>>11843247
Not the same guy but you basically are correct, what Chinese do to each other at the small, everyday level is horrendous and it is normalised at the highest level but that doesn't change the political reality. China is becoming the most effective practicer of capitalism. This is what he means by they're beating us, they are creating the new archetype where human rights are shrunk to nothing, mass surveillance, huge state intervention in personal lives.

This is where the zeitgeist is going and if we want to compete economically that is where we are going. The laws of global capitalism are simple in that a surplus must be maintained, so the choice is basically become china or become a sort of dark age europe crossed with north korea.

>>11843175
liberalism isn't leftist you dumb fuck

>>11844250
it's certainly not right wing, except from a retarded marxist lens, but with a marxist lens everything is right wing, even actual communists as soon as they fail

>>11844250
liberals literally sat on the left in the National Assembly during the french revolution, which is from where the term comes from

why would bother reading hundreds of pages when you can just look in the mirror?

>>11843046
>just get away from your spouse and drink every day to keep sane, everything is fine
sure thing buddy
everything is fine

everything is fine
everything is fine
everything is fine
everything is fine
everything is fine

>>11839212
No. I already know liberalism has failed, most everyone does, except apparently the majority of people who frequent this board. They're so threatened by anything that isn't socialist thought.

Start reading more for solutions and tactics.

>>11843299
Can I get some recs?

>>11839354

?

>>11843175
You are literally a fucking retard. He's talking about liberalism as in the political philosophy that emerged in the enlightenment. Classical and progressive liberals are just fancy name for conservative/ liberal. They still share the same first principles in their ideas.

Jesus did you even try reading about these ideologies?

>>11843247
all of those things can change because of their political system tho. the party exerts an enormous amount of control and can practically force change if they need to. which is precisely what's happening. while westerners/whites are slipping away into the delusions of multiculturalism that's eroding their cultures and societies, the CCP continues to promote nationalism/patriotism

>>11847539
>>all of those things can change because of their political system tho. the party exerts an enormous amount of control and can practically force change if they need to.
False. It's a lot easier to destroy culture and humanity than it is to create it, it's especially difficult to recreate particularly what was lost. People are not 100% malleable.

>>11847539
>while westerners/whites are slipping away into the delusions of multiculturalism that's eroding their cultures and societies, the CCP continues to promote nationalism/patriotism
Westerners are doing what they want. And as for China...you're mistaking overwhelming self-interest for something else entirely.

>>11839212
Liberalism has not failed.

Socialism has failed, so has any other top-down system, yet we're still accepting that a small minority keeps pushing their top-down anti liberal bullshit on us

>>11839354
good b8

>man cannot live on bread alone

>>11839481
Lol, I don't have that much money, hahaha

>>11847703
ALAHU AHKBAR!!!!
Liberty is great, yalah.

>>11847703
>Liberalism developed as a system that was not "top-down".
Even if we ignore the absurdity of what you implied, it's obvious you haven't even read a page of the book.

>>11843299
Which ones?

>>11842608
I mean to say, "ideal man" - the neurotypical, conformist, optimist

>>11847703
>durr socdem=communism

he denies it but it is so clearly a demand for a strong, authoritarian fascist state its kind of based

>>11848334
So what does he propose instead?

>>11847703
Arguably Trump intervening in the economy to bribe farmers is bolshevism or some shit.

>>11848855
Which is a good thing. :)

>>11847703
>so has any other top-down system, yet we're still accepting that a small minority keeps pushing their top-down anti liberal bullshit on us
Only god can save us from retards like you

>>11839212
>Is it worth reading
Looks like this was written in the last 50 years, which means it's not.

>>11839354
Put me in the screencap/cringe compilation.

>>11848855
A government being protectionist is non-comparable to Bolshevism.

>>11849556
T. White suburban kid

>>11842084
Did those ever really exist though? What was there to 'die'? It seems they do exist today, just in very 'warped' forms, merely exposing the vacuousness, vagueness, and baselessness of their original conceptions.

>>11839212
read The Retreat of Western Liberalism by Edward Luce first

>>11848241
Is the "ideal man" of today neurotypical in their response to modern conditions? A fairly large percentage of monetarily successful high status men are dependent on many substances to maintain their current living situation, and mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, and sociopathy are pretty common in banking/legal/medical professions.

Let alone industries like tech where it seems there's a positive correlation between exhibition of antisocial behaviors like transgenderism/odd sexual practices and success within the industry.

>>11850358
Wealthy men suffer spiritually? When has this EVER happened???!!

>>11850375
Why are they suffering spiritually? Is it a result of their wealth directly (highly unlikely) or is it a result of their lack of belonging to an anchored community bigger than themselves? I'd make a bet that there would be less of an issue with this if we were less concerned with "liberating" the individual from the constraints of intergenerational traditions, and more concerned with approaching social life with a healthy intergenerational/anchored focus. If these bugmen belonged to something aside from the modern church of no salvation, they probably wouldn't be deciding to cut their dicks off and spend all of their money on Percocets.

>>11850358
I don't think anybody has been ok since we invented the first tools, actually scratch that, since we developed language

>>11847776
Capitalism, and in turn liberalism, are both bottom-up. It is was not a group of central planners who decided now we need freedom and capitalism, it was individuals pursuing their own interests.

>>11848254
Social democracy is still socialism. Adding democracy changes nothing.

>>11848855
No, it is protectionism.

>>11849371
Not an argument.

>>11850414
Then you can have fun playing Noble savage with Africans/Aboriginals if you want to. No one is arguing that all development is bad, but "liberation" from the intergenerational traditions that evolutionarily shaped most ethnic groups is not exactly working out well.

>>11850406
>Is it a result of their wealth directly (highly unlikely)
It is? Societies with higher inequality have more social problems in all classes.

>>11850421
Brother, you're wrong about capitalism not being centrally planned. All economies are planned to an extent. While the modern US economy may not be planned down to the ton of grain like the soviets, you're naive if you don't understand how fractional reserve banking and monetary policy plan the US Global capitalist economy.

>>11850446
>Then you can have fun playing Noble savage with Africans/Aboriginals
These people have language and tools so they don't fit my model

>>11839212
ultimately disappointing because he'll end up with some valid critiques and then go "but idk what to do afterwards" so in the end, even though liberalism might be a failure, it's seems like Deneen imagines it to be the only tangible system

>>11850421
>both bottom-up.
Liberalism at its early iteration was very top down. It is only later on that is democratized.

>>11850451
The Central African Republic has a lower Gini coefficient than the US. I'll buy you a one way plane ticket if you'd like.

>>11850492
Non-sequtiers are not an argument

>>11850468
He actually does propose a tenuous system at the end. Basically he suggests we balkanize and split into smaller groups that can be turned into intergenerational communities with illiberal cultural restrictions. His argument is that the empire will likely collapse under its own weight as it continues to borrow from shallower and shallower pools to fund the increasingly insane future.

>>11850510
I read that not as an alternative but, something that might happen before a collapse. Might need to re-read it sometime then

>>11850507
You said that wealth inequality is a determinant factor in social problems. I gave you an example in which lower wealth inequality did not determine a better society. That doesn't mean wealth inequality isn't an issue, but when people consider it the only issue they are missing the mark by a mile and a half.

>>11850507
>anon presents directly relevant example that contradicts your statement of inequality being important
>call it a non-sequitur
what did anon2 mean by this

>>11850455
No, it is not planned. There is not a government that sits and plans out what people should pursue, what they should not pursue, when, how or anything else.

Yes, the contemporary central banking finance system is planned to a certain degree, but it's not capitalism nor is it liberalism.

>>11850476
You can't have top-down in a system that puts individual freedom above all. In spaces dominated by technocrats you may see """liberalism"""" in a top down way, but it's not liberalism.

>>11850538
I'm sorry but that is just wrong. The federal reserve decides the interest rates for its member banks based on what kind of loans they are pursuing. This may not plan to the brick what houses are built and where, but it plans what resources are available for businesses to pursue which does effectively the same thing. You're being autistic about the word "plan" and refusing to see the forest for the trees.

>>11850519
>>11850520
You were talking about social problems, now you are talking the quality of society? I don't doubt for a second that USA is materially well off than in CRA, but compared to other 1st world countries, usa and other more unequal countries have more problems than those are more equal

>>11850565
What other issues does the United States have that other "first world" (read: white) countries don't? It might have something to do with a nearly 40% non-white population which per capita are tax detractors and create nearly no economic value. Perhaps it has something to do with nearly ever major urban center in the United States being incredibly dangerous due to occupying populations who commit significantly more crime per capita.

>>11850561
The contemporary central banking cartel is not capitalism, nor is it liberalism.

>>11850594
if that's the way liberalism evolves than yes, it's liberalism

>>11850594
It's Jews right

>>11850597
But that is not the way liberalism has evolved, it has nothing to do with liberalism.

>>11839354
>greatest period of wealth
This is quite controversial, electronics are incredibly cheap, a computer used to cost quite a few monthly paychecks, and you would save to buy a TV.
On the other hand food, housing and education is becoming less and less available.
Basically the most used freedom in the free-market is investing in communist dictatorships(China). It's actually their success which is driving it.

>>11850594
You're right, it's only the way liberalism has been paid for given that the anti-social effects of divorcing the individual from their commitments to their community doesn't tend to incentivize functional socio-economic policy. Also, individualism is for faggots, and you're not as smart as you think you are Sargin, and that's a terrible place to be.

>>11850612
China is a capitalist dictatorship.

>>11850618
We're reaching levels of cope-posting that should even be possible.

>>11850585
A much higher GINI coefficent? Even among all fist world countries, lower GINI coefficent correlates to less social problems and shit. And yes they compared with developed countries in Asia too.

>>11850602
this is basically "communism has never been tried"

>>11850633
So you're picking Ukraine over Finland? Finland has a higher GINI coefficient. Dude this argument is weak as fuck and you know it. Just give up and go back to the drawing board. Economic equality is A problem, but it very obviously isn't THE problem.

>>11850623
What are you on about, communism as an economic movement in China is dead.

>>11850659
Why are you constantly confusing material wealth for social problems? Are you a legit retard that cannot read? These 'bugmen' are suffering these problems precisely due to a high unequal society that breeds resentment and alienation.

>>11850671
There has never been an "equal" society to compare to, as equality is a functionally impossible goal to achieve. These "bugmen" are significantly more recent than the phenomenon of wealth inequality, so it's pretty obvious that you're missing the mark. It is a lack of social integration created by the destruction of the community which these people would have actualized themselves through in the past. People feel no brotherhood among eachother because any natural homogenous communities that would form have been intentionally broken up as "segregated".

>>11850697
I never said that there should be a completely equal society either you fucking brainlet. I only mentioned that there is a correlation with inequality and social problems when you compare countries of high material wealth.

>These "bugmen" are significantly more recent than the phenomenon of wealth inequality,
I never said otherwise idiot, that is not an arguement.

>People feel no brotherhood among eachother because any natural homogenous communities that would form have been intentionally broken up as "segregated"
Yes that is precisely caused by excessive inequality.

>>11850669
Mercantilism isn't capitalism. All assets are fundamentally government owned in China (as well as the US for the most part aside from multi-national conglomerations). Yes, they do have a certain amount of a "free market" in the sense that the regulations are not enforced, but to call them "capitalist" is ridiculous. They are mixed market in certain senses, and socialized in others.

>>11850719
Brother, you need to calm that autism down. It's very obvious you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, which is why you have nothing to say when I display how GINI is a poor explanatory factor for social problems. If you want to actually understand the alienation in modern society read Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam. It is the disruption of racial/cultural homogeneity that creates this alienation, not wealth inequality. Your GINI explanation doesn't work, period. Liberia has a significantly lower GINI than New Zealand for fucks sake.

>>11850720
Mercantilism is essentially capitalism, plus more government direction minus respect for completely liberal free trade.
China is decidedly capitalist, just with some authoritarian collectivist flavours, and a lot of bs socialist rhetoric coming from the state.

>>11849815
>Did those ever really exist though?
Those are principles.
You mean, were they ever implemented as legislation? Never fully I think. The American constitution was based on these principles, but like you mentioned the legislation and the interpretation warped over time.

No, what I meant was that the ideology of liberalism is dying or dead, since barely anyone still upholds these principles. And of those few who do, barely anyone does it because of liberal ideology. Many ideological movements support these principles in part, temporarily or in name only, whenever it suits them and when it doesn't, then they oppose them.

>>11850737
>Brother, you need to calm that autism down. It's very obvious you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about,
Considering how you are sprouting out examples and arguments that doesn't directly go against what I said, you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. Maybe ease on the passive aggressive rhetoric and check the data that proves my point. And I did read Bowling Alone, it still doesn't conflict what I said earlier you brainlet. And Putman never said about racial homogenity, most of the organization he cited were not a white-only organizations.

>>11839354
you know the saddest thing of all is that you're right

>>11850644
Not a single liberal is for the central banking cartel.

Calling something liberalism just because you don't like it is stupid.

Call it what it is, corruption and cronyism.

just read Moldbug and you´ll know why Liberalism failed

>>11850895
I'm pro-Moldbug but, some of his predictions were so off it's embarrassing

>>11850850
When the US was 90+% white prior to the 1960s most everything was defacto white only if not explicitly so.

>>11851023
Right in the feels.

>>11840978
Who's that?

>>11840978
Are you shilling your own blog?
It's a dope quote though...

>>11850895
What a retarded statement

>>11839354
Proud centrist brother!

>>11852302
brainlette

>>11850623
i cba to read all whatever youre debating about but this post is literal shit

>>11850612
>>11850618
>>11850623
>>11850669
>>11850720
>>11850765
China is fascist in the real sense of the word.

>>11839354
cringe

>>11839212
Does it use the classical definition of liberalism, or the debased bullshit meaning that came out of the US?

>>11850618
It's part of the main argument in favor of capitalism that there is no such thing. Which capitalists would you even refer to? Obviously if it's a conglomerate of big farmers or industry, whatever these dictators dictated would be very different.

>>11839212
>Is it worth reading?

probably not. its got one of those emotive titles that aatract basedboys, fuccboi's and faggots who don't even read.
also it not very good

>>11852298
Is it shilling if it is on topic and I don't make money?
This is something of a difficult climate to try and find readers and people to engage with your ideas. That's the only reason I'm posting, to try and find some like-minded other writers to engage with.

>>11852279
Who's what?

>>11852580
Don't know, desu, never read it.

>>11850406
>Why are they suffering spiritually?
Because spiritual suffering is an inescapable part of the human condition.
You're born, you suffer, you die. No psychobabble will change that.

>>11839212
is that about classical liberalism?

>>11848209
>>11846062
Nietzsche, Freud, Weber, Carl Schmitt etc.

>>11851023
Then you just admitted projecting racial sentiment in Putnam’s statements, restructuring and repopulating these organizations with people regardless of race will resuscitate the communal spirit.

>>11848254
>his graphic doesn't break all the US data down by race.... (which when you do that shows it is great to white, pro tip don't be black)
anon...

>>11853064
No he admits that Putnam's data was based on a primarily white America. He said nothing about how the data might look or be impacted based on today's demographics. nice job putting words in his mouth. I'm SURE that if we put a bunch of 3rd world immigrants into these organisations we will magically get the communal spirit back again! #I'mWithHer #DiversityIsOurStrength :)

>>11853062
Any works in particular?

>>11853064
I'm telling you the main correlations he found in diverse communities was an increase in television consumption and likelihood to experience racial protests/riots.

>>11853123
Twilight of the Idols is a good brief introduction to Nietzsche and his simultaneously pro-individualist (in the projection of the will onto reality sense) but anti-liberal/decadence thoughts.

>>11853123
Beyond Good and Evil
Civilization and Its Discontents
The Concept of the Political
Politics as a Vocation

>>11840978
It seems you use language for its own sake rather than to effectively communicate ideas.

>>11853123
Beyond Human Rights by Alain de Benoist

>>11839481
I don't have money

>>11854528
Of course not, this is /lit/

>>11839212
It was good

>>11853104
>He said nothing about how the data might look or be impacted based on today's demographics
Fuck off, he did implied that the racial change was the cause of the collapse of these groups and alienation

>>11853129
Yes because of the lack community groups and organizations. What is your point?

>>11850867
But Hitler was a lefty because the NADSAP had socialist in their nape and Kim Jong Un is literally Karl Marx reincarnated, and every form of communism requires centralized planning and an authoritarian state, which makes every leftist a state-loving cuck, am I right?

>>11850921
>>I'm pro-Moldbug but, some of his predictions were so off it's embarrassing
Give some examples? I know nothing of him really but the image you're replying to is interesting.

>>11856505
My point is that it isn't an accident that diverse communities lack community groups and organizations. It isn't a class issue that causes this, it is a basic reality of human nature that people are tribal and tend to prefer the company of those who have similar cultural backgrounds (with culture being downstream of race).

>>11839354
fpbb

first post best bait

you read it first here folks

>>11856505
It is though

>>11856685
And my point is that you injecting racial sentiments into Putman's non racial description of the problem. So stop trying to deny it.

Even then your point is really retarded, even within my country that is far more homogeneous than USA and maintains as for decades faces the same levels of alienation with the similar decline of community organizations.

>>11839212
Decent.
Yeah go ahead and read it.

>>11842743
Nigger, China is more soulless than America. Basically anything people resent about the US is 10 times worse in China. It's a cultural wasteland.

>>11839212
If something piques your interest it must be worth reading right? Even to learn that it's not of interest to you.

>>11850895
How has it failed?

>>11862502
It produced people like Moldbug.

>>11861742
That's because Chinese people themselves are soulless bug people. That doesn't mean they don't still exalt their cultural/racial self image of their nation. For God's sake their reference to their land is literally the "middle kingdom" not in the median sense of middle, but in the "center of the world"/focal point sense of middle. Chinese people are bugs, but they are bugs that have a strong sense of their people and identity.

>>11862926
>value their nation and culture
>completely destroy their 2000 year old culture because of a Western ideology
>then adopt Western capitalism
>then adopt a Western religion after that
yeah great job

>>11839729
Exactly this. Go read Balzac or if you need to go really ancient The Golden Ass. People had all the same sufferings in the past, just now we are better able to survive physical and mental illnesses which makes it appear that there is more suffering. In the past the people with these problems would just be dead. Modern literature and social discourse is more focused on everyday experiences so it seems less glorious than the politically oriented ancient world.

>Reading any book that starts with "why" in the title

Almost always pseud bait

>>11863009
Look in the mirror guy. The state of white nations is fucking insane, you can't even publicly state that white people as a national group exist with interests, and they don't have to justify the pursuit of their interests morally to anyone else.

>>11863043
I'm not saying that the West is in great shape, but anyone who thinks China isn't fucked hard is delusional. Even demographically they're worse off, as they've got an aging population and a massive gender gap that's going to potentially disrupt society in a couple of decades.

>>11863050
As opposed to more or less every major western power who are all intentionally looking to become white minority within the next 30 years (despite whites being basically the only people who are net tax contributors after services used).

>>11863043
white people were never a national group you absolute fuckwit, they're a group of national groups

>>11863203
Right, so white Canadians aren't a national group, or white Americans, or white English or French or Germans? Fuck off faggot.

>>11864183
you literally cannot read

>>11864202
Your point is that because there is an overarching superstructure that encompasses different white ethnicities, that whites as a whole are not a nation group. I'm saying that just isn't true to life in most white nations. It actually doesn't really matter if you're Belgian, Dutch, Swedish, Czech or Portuguese. If you're white, you're white, and while you may not see yourself as in the same national group as someone of a different European ethnicity, you most certainly are from the perspective of non-whites. Even white countries that have long-standing rivalries have significantly better chances at integrating the opposing ethnic group than any non-white ethnicity in a population of scale.

>>11843146
>to free us from the mundane
Dumbass, what do you think the average person will do when there's no work to be done? They won't come flocking to /lit/ wanting to explore world art, literature, and philosophy, I can assure you that. People need to work. If they don't have something to keep their mind on then they rot mentally and physically.

>>11864303
>if you're white, you're white, and while you may not see yourself as in the same national group as someone of a different European ethnicity, you most certainly are from the perspective of non-whites
the breakdown of European nations from a hyper-competitive league of cultures into a vague regional porridge is completely unrelated to race, and it's only even related to nationalism because nationalism happened to be the poison that broke Europe. The impossibility of ethnic identification in America beyond "white" and "black" for those groups (in reality both supergroups) is similarly a problem that won't be solved by trying to strengthen the limp and ungrounded institutions of Whiteness and Blackness that we substitute for race in its absence. The difficulty of living through the loss of historical identity is real, but the attempt to solve this with delusional ideation of new ethno-states based on fake, mutt outgrowths of the old races is a cowardly attempt to retreat into the womb of history instead of growing the fuck up and dealing with the fact that some things don't last forever.

>>11839593
If you dismiss the fact that suicide is in many (liberal) countries becoming the number one cause of death in young people as "personal problem", you are choosing not to see a very obvious problem

>>11864384
Hahah no let's all just interbreed until we're one big same colored mass across the globe! #I'mStillWithHer #DiversityIsOurStrength

>>11864394
you are a child. you will change or history will grind you to dust.

>>11864384
I'm a bit tired, but let's give it a shot.

Firstly, you're very wrong about nationalism being the poison that broke Europe. Neither world war was caused by Nationalism, in fact they both were caused by outgrowths of imperial internationalism and in the case of WW2 the use of international finance to literally bankroll communism and capitalism collaborating against Nationalism.

Secondly, while you may very well be right that much of the ethnostate talk is an attempt to contract before the death of something that previously was, you're fucking delusional if you think this current system, nor anything as efficient will be functional without a strong white majority in the epicenters of the Jewish Global Impirium in order to maintain it's massive ponze scheme of an economic infrastructure.

Your view of the American conception of whiteness is very obviously poorly informed, and in fact this country was explicitly White nationalist from its very formation, with the very first act of congress being one that limited full civic status to "Free white males of good moral character". America and the burger identity has issues, but it certainly doesn't have issues surrounding the concept of whiteness aside from the legitimacy of whiteness as an identity being under near constant attack by the status quo.
I'd suggest you actually take a second to listen to what some of the "ethnostate" people who you consider so childish have to say, and maybe read some primary sources from prior to ww2 before you make statements so clearly not grounded in reality. While whiteness as it stands currently is a weak identity, that is the result of significant intentional efforts, and is a fairly recent phenomenon.

>>11864405
Brother, I'm not sure if you've been paying any attention, but you're betting against the undisputed world champions of organized violence, and betting on people who literally can't figure out what gender they are.

>>11864452
if your argument requires you to believe in the existence of the global jewish conspiracy in order to hold water, it is a house of cards based on so many assumptions that it cannot possibly be more than a coping mechanism.

>>11864460
Based and redpilled.

>>11864460
This. Contrapoints and Ollie are gone first.

>>11864519
This just tells me you haven't looked into it in the slightest. If I were to tell you that the Chinese were collectively working together to further Chinese interests, you would likely not call foul because it is only reasonable to expect them to do so. Suddenly when it is Jews who are collaborating in pursuit of their collective interests it cannot be done for some reason (despite insurmountable evidence that there is significant international collaboration between different Jewish interests).

Obviously the guy making your pastrami sandwich isn't in on the job, but 1.5% of the US population didn't become 48% of billionaires within 80 years accidentally. The US didn't end up with 4/9s of the Supreme Court representing 1.5% of the US population accidentally (and it would have been 5 had Merrick Garland got the nomination). The US didn't end up with mandatory Holocaust class in every high school (in many states) despite the US having little to do with the Holocaust and not even having serious historical recognition of it until the mid-1970s accidentally.

>>11864551
Not an argument.

>>11853283
Perhaps you are just a poor reader, or just too young.

>>11865901
>If I were to tell you that the Chinese were collectively working together to further Chinese interests, you would likely not call foul because it is only reasonable to expect them to do so.
Lmao, only within China, even then there is dissident and discord in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Xinjiang

Capital is sentinent

>>11866103
that's not a very attractive lad

Can we talk about socialists/communist and how they blame everything on capitalism?

>liberalism failed
Compared to what, a utopia? yeah.
Compared to everything else?

The only people who talk shit about liberalism are just extreme ideologues who want to convince the average joe to drop liberalism.

Read history and watch less romanticized films.

The past was much more disgusting hellhole than you can even imagine.

>SO WE SHOULD ACCEPT IT AS IT IS HUH???
Nice strawman, no we can increase freedumbs more, like we have been for the past 100 years.

>>11864324
>If they don't have something to keep their mind on then they rot mentally and physically.

I agree, but does this have to be stacking boxes 8 hours a day for a meager wage? Seems a dire sort of misanthrophy if you hold people need to be enslaved for their own good.

I'm not a liberal but I fucking hate the obnoxious "LIBERALISM HAS FAILED" crowd.

No it hasn't failed, it's actually quite good and by far the best thing ever done, but there are greater things we can do than liberalism.

>b-but we have to agitate and fearmonger so people can change
No need, slow and gradual change is taking place without violent revolutions.

That's the funny bit, unlike other systems, liberalism due to its nature, very susceptible to change, liberal societies are by design destined to fade out into something else.

We just have to be there to steer it to the better choices.
The ones that are winning at this game don't try to overthrow the system, they infiltrate it and bit by bit turn it into their vision.
That is the great and weak part of liberalism.

Think a main problem here is that people understand "liberalism" to mean different things.

>>11866125
>>11866147
>t.

>>11866175
>t.

>>11866192
>science
You're clueless.
neoreactionary or a neomarxist?

>>11866098
Im sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about. The number of Chinese exchange students who are sent here explicitly to take advantage of the openness of US research institutions, and then go back to China to utilize their newly acquired skills to benefit them is massive. Their entire economy is based on manufacturing American/European exports, and exporting students to American schools to upkeep their technological infrastructure.

The number of Chinese immigrants/visa workers who are effectively Chinese intelligence agents (including Senator Diane Feinstein's 20+ year driver who was recently arrested for giving state secrets to the Chinese) is massive, and they are present at nearly every elite university in the US. Hell, I worked under one of them in a molecular biology lab. He was a good dude and I enjoyed my time working under him, but he had no illusions about the purpose of him being in the US working the job he was doing. He was to be here for 5 years so that he could go back to China and get a better position within government research under the assumption that he would deliver to them the American research methods employed at the University lab.

>>11866203
Neither.
But you need to go back.

>>11866227
Oh so you are talking about mainlanders. Of course citizens from China will work towards China's interests. But there are Chinese diaspora that is scattered around the world and they are not aligned to China for various reasons, some are even openly antagonistic.

>>11866297
a radical centrist : )
So wise and...just...in the middle of things, brave and redpilled.

>>11866227
Hey I have a book recommendation for you when I get back later based poster

>>11866308
You're describing yourself?

>>11866318
Alright, I'm always down to add to my never ending queue of stuff to read.

>>11866450
Nah it's worth a read and about China.

>>11866342
nice try sargon

>>11866513
Lol fucking Sargoy

>>11866456
Well spit it out already bud, don't leave me blue balled with my yellow peril posting

>>11850358
I think the big issue here is looking at your job as income. The higher up in the income scale you go the larger the share of income is coming from returns on capital. In general most of the very wealthy are just living on inherited wealth, see Thomas Picketty. These people tend to be pretty fucked up, see "Born Rich." I don't think that is because of modern society. I think its more that the brain is not made to handle nearly unlimited power and the top part of the elite in any society has suffered from pretty similar neuroses.

>>11867984
Look into A Farewell to Alms and The Son Also Rises both by Gregory Clark. TSAR is more related to what you're looking for, but it looks at the extended family of upper class/aristocratic families, and the high likelihood of downward social mobility over generations among these aristocratic families.

>>11868071
Good recs anon. I am somewhat sympathetic to his arguments. I think it explains why specific ethnic groups which have been persecuted such as Jews or Coptic Christians are generally smarter than average. Keep in mind that it still takes about three centuries on his analysis for families to fall from wealth meaning a lot of the people at the top have just inherited. Also TSAR is flawed because Swedes have been changing their last names all the time to appear upper class. They had to actually make a law against this in the 70s. Picketty furthermore, provides a good analysis of how lots of the old aristocracy are still wealthy today. Of course some rise and some fall but it would be a mistake to equate the elite with the upper middle class professional culture. Cultural elites primarily do come from this environment though.

>>11866227
This is definitely a major trend, specifically in engineering. A lot of them try, especially those in things like Math or Physics, to remain in the US because teaching at a Chinese university sucks. This is basically a brain drain on China though probably in more theoretical fields. The process does also support the effective westernization of the Chinese political elite. Not that there will be sudden change. They will probably be a lot like the liberal Russian aristocrats who worshiped all culture and production from France.

>>11868121
I'm not really all that familiar with Picketty's work besides when everyone was crazy about Capital in the 21st century for a minute and a half. Aside from that, what of his would you recommend reading? I tend to be more right leaning, but I've always found it interesting to read leftists who are genuine in their convictions rather than just flat out larping.

>>11842743
>united states no culture
You literally have no idea do you.

>>11850765
Read about socialism and then you can use the word.

>>11853062
>Nietzsche and Freud tearing individualism to shreds

This is probably the best argument for individualist anarchism, so not entirely.

Bump

>>11869267
The United States has culture it's just irredeemable garbage.

>>11865943
No one gives a shit.

Bump

>>11839481
>muh all my problems are society's fault!!!
Talk about yourself, you fucking failure

>>11850358
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_mental_disorders
problem is definition, here everyone who once felt stressful in their life is classified as a mental case

im talking about people with REAL problems, suicide and the like, not some crybaby relationship drama

>>11850618
>state controls all companies
>muh means of porductionsasddas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state-owned_enterprises_of_China

>>11873128
incel detected

>>11869709
Liberal individualism, not individualism. Nietzsche may have been an individualist, but not a liberal

>>11869094
I wish I could offer more but I am really just getting started in economics. Yes I got memed into reading Capital in the 21st century, which is certainly flawed but valuable to read. You probably know more texts than I do. I am primarily interested in economists like Picketty and some of the more intelligent UBI advocates because they seem like an updated move to appropriate socialist critiques of capitalism in the service of stabilizing the system like Keynes did in the 30s. I might be hopelessly naive but I feel that a political shift towards some form of wealth redistribution would largely placate the populist impulse. I still believe liberalism is a good thing as it lets people have as much freedom as any advanced society could provide. Therefore even if these sorts of policies are economically inefficient they would increase the economic power of ordinary people which would make it easier to form purpose based social groups. Even in the absence of much actual redistribution, elite acceptance of some sort of reformist ideology would at least give people something to rally around that isn't petty tribalism. Ideally those who want to will have enough economic security that they can form strictly structured groups which might give them existential purpose. Having this role be filled by the state seems really dangerous especially when alternatives exist.

Bump

>>11856554
>Give some examples?
forgot where, but he insinuated the financial system would collapse in a few years

>>11873325
>incel detected
the actual sign of an incel right there

>>11849815
Im old enough to remember it friend, the world was less controlled and less pozzed before 911, that was the moment it all went south, the moment all the nasty stuff happening in the shadows went full monster.

>>11839354
if liberalism is so awesome, why are liberals always complaining about something?

I think liberalism is good.
That is, when we talk about 17-18th century economists, philosophers, and other thinkers.

I don't think there's much worth to the subverted progressive liberalism of today.
Don't even know if liberalism is what it should be called (liberalism in sense of American political sphere, American progressivism)

>>11873402
>appropriate socialist critiques of capitalism in the service of stabilizing the system like Keynes did in the 30s
< Keynes
< stabilizing economy.
are we peak neo-liberal now?

>>11850720
>Mercantilism isn't capitalism.
Rothbard seems to disagree with you.

>>11875795
you don't understand those classical liberal thinkers.

American Progressivism has as good a claim to the name "Liberal" as Manchester Liberalism, you can trace it right back to Mill. it's not a language problem, the Liberal tradition just is complicated and internally conflicted.

>>11875816
I thought I understood Locke and Hobbes fairly easily, guess you know better than me.
> you can trace it right back to Mill
> the Liberal tradition just is complicated and internally conflicted
If it's complicated and internally conflicted it's because of precisely like thinkers like the two Mills who were, respectively, disasters and heavily internally conflicted in both of their theories (older one with economy, younger one with utilitarianism).

>>11875829
the inconsistencies go all the way back to Locke and Smith: private accumulation of capital, individual freedom, elimination of nobility, free contract, free markets, egalitarianism, rights, etc. you can find justification for all of these things and more in the classic texts, but you can't have them all at once. JS Mill's solution to the Liberal puzzle is as justified as any.

>>11875851
Yes, I do agree.
I'm personally willing to go just with economic freedom from their doctrines, I'm not too hot on egalitarianism and human rights.

>>11839354
Don't know if LARP or serious. I'm hoping LARP.

>>11839377
>>11839481
>>11840822
>>11842031
>>11876042
>>11842084
>>11842565
>>11842870
>>11843396
>>11875705
>>11857791
>>11852570
>>11850612
>>11850863

We are living in an unprecedented era of wealth, well-being, richness, health of any age, in absolute numbers and in relative numbers.

Most of alt-right whining is pretty much sour grapes that they didn't get their dream girl or didn't start as AMZN CEO with 100 million paycheck every month.

>>11876058
Giving this shit to the masses was a fucking mistake though desu.

>>11876062

>>11864388
They used their individual liberty to go on instagram and compare themselves to much more focused people

>>11876062
Kek, the masses took the "shit" by force, where did the fuck did you pull your noble elite worldview out from

>>11876058
democracy is shit tho

>>11876143
They really didn't though. For example literacy and vaxines spread by scientific and economic breakthroughs...

>>11876058
>or didn't start as AMZN CEO with 100 million paycheck every month.
No, what? You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. The alt-right is heavily influenced by libertarian autism (hence the reduction of relationships to "sexual market value"). They're only critical of capitalism insofar as it is permissive of globalism. The actual anti-capitalist thought has only been embraced recently and with much reluctance. The same way they realized Ron Paul wasn't going to be president, they are now realizing that Big Tech is the enemy, and must be reigned in by expanding the scope of the Leviathan. It would be more accurate to say that they are pissy about Juan's ancestors never bothering to form labor unions of their own.

>>11876153
Which then created a world which ballooned in population. Europe used to be 1/4th of that of the world. We brought the Third World kicking and screaming into civilization and even today they manage to fuck it up while complaining that it's the fault of the white man. Huxley had this stuff figured out in the 30s, and I am beginning to suspect he was not the only one.

>>11876258
>The alt-right is heavily influenced by libertarian autism
Richard Spencer is literally
1. backing Tulsi Gabbard 2020
2. pushing for social-democrat policy platforms, but for whites.
He has nothing to do with libertarians (pre Artices of Confederation) or even Rand or Paul cuck libertarianism.
> They're only critical of capitalism insofar as it is permissive of globalism
They're not critical even to that extent, for example Dicky Ricky has some insane notion about "European identity" and "White Identity" which is just a globalist talking point, but for whites. Lets just ignore that for most of Europe's (geographically) history, the nations and states warred against each other.
> The same way they realized Ron Paul wasn't going to be president, they are now realizing that Big Tech is the enemy, and must be reigned in by expanding the scope of the Leviathan
There's nothing revolutionary about antitrust policies though. Sometimes they're healthy sometimes not.
They're gutted and cucked.

>>11876261
>Muh Alt-wight!!!
Even then, lmao >muh richud spenctard

>>11839212
It fucking slaps! Yeah, make a thread about it once you finish op?

Bump

>>11839577
As a brazilian I don't agree with the race mixing thing, but global capitalism has been really bad to workers and to the enviroment, indeed.

>>11843373
I feel you, brother.

>>11839481
>soulless and culture-less
When you know you're failing to make a solid point, you go straight to the discussion of morality.

>>11839593
It's beautiful.

>>11839555
>Defeated the tribalists

Tribalism is alive and well today. White vs Black, Men vs Women, Native vs Immigrant, Atheist vs Theist, Christian vs Muslim. Tribalism never disappeared, it just evolved. Tribalism is a part of human nature and I don't think will ever disappear, not for a very long time. Look at any charts of population dispersion. Populations are always drawn to their own. Look at the phenomenon of 'white flight' for example.

Liberalism in the past few years has done nothing more than to actually contribute towards tribalism largely due to it's adoption of marxist ideals (the privileged vs the unprivileged).

>defeated the reactionaries
>defeated the fascists

The alt-right is a reactionary movement, that has many fascist supporters.

>Defeated the communists

Communism is alive and well. Antifa, an anarcho communist movement, is actually so popular it has supporters from America to Eastern Europe. Many liberal media outlets are apathetic towards their actions despite the violence they have participated in due to them being enemies with the alt-right (the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

The only thing that is correct about your comment is that liberalism is worldwide. However that does not mean that the other ideologies are not thriving, they very much are.

>>11839212
Yea good read. Heres a spoiler.... In the end we fucked

>>11876058
>entire race being systematically attacked and demographically replaced
>sour grapes
lel

The real white guilt should be the guilt of siding with the jews to stop hitler