/lit/ - Literature

The work is not satirical in any way, stop trying to push this meme. Show me evidence of him being satirical.

I’ll be in your thread all night /w u ;)

The Republic being impossible doesn't mean it can't be a utopia, in fact one of the inherent qualities of a utopia is that it is impossible

>>11812409
This guy gets it

Unfunny bait

Why did Plato try to turn Dion into a philosopher king of Syracuse then? (unfortunately he couldn't learn geometry and therefore couldn't be a philosopher).

>>11812406
>Book showing crude reality
>Satirical xD
the state of western society scares me. You people are trained monkeys who learned how to use a computer. I refuse to believe you are human
>>11812409
>If it's impossible...
I didn't say this. Plato is showing the reader the real life not an imaginary Holy Land of Free Men.
>but dude justice is utopia
Then by your definition every law, constitution and judicial piece is an utopia. You guys have mental issues you can't even think before typing

umm no, it's about how the perfect ruler must be illuminated to the eternal reality of the forms, IDIOT

>>11812423
Justice is one of the four highest Platonic virtues. Are you trying to make the argument Thrasymachus made at the beginning? That justice is not objective, but subjective?

>>11812423
Ok forget the word justice. In Republic Plato is describing a city where the rulers are constantly trying to find out the form of the good and trying to spread this good to the city. They are also incorruptible by money. This does not sound like the description of a utopia?

Saying Plato was just making a joke is a lot like how the heretic Epiphanes said that God was making a joke when he forbade adultery.

>>11812442
...why not? Please explain why that isn’t a utopia?

>>11812448
Im saying it is a utopia, op is saying Plato was not describing a utopia

>>11812457
Ah I see.

>>11812428
>the perfect ruler
>>11812431
>That justice is not objective, but subjective
The argument is in OP: even bad men can act good. That's because the system(hierarchy + city structure + personal values) it has nothing to do with subjectivity
>>11812442
>Plato is describing a city where the rulers are constantly trying to find out the form of the good and trying to spread this good to the city.
You read a different book and/or you didn't read Republic at all. I'll consult wikipedia because this kind of description might come from there or some instant answer. This is the answer youtube/university teachers give to their students.

You guys have mental issues you can't even think before typing. You want to think but you can't. Your brain is trying but it fails. It's scary. Right now in my life I'd rather believe you are trolls or mentally ill patients browsing from a psychiatry prison than actual human beings. I'm not joking

>>11812468
>I’m not joking

>>11812400
>how can western teachers be so retarded?
they don't actually read plato. I have had teachers tell me the greeks and especially plato were lgbtqabcde+ which shows he didn't even read fucking laws. Seriously frends, don't go to zog schools anymore, just be a neet and read books on your own.

>>11812468
How is that from a different book? How did you interpret him saying that the philosopher should rule and that his job is to find the form of the good?

>>11812480
> How did you interpret him saying that the philosopher should rule and that his job is to find the form of the good?
bait question because I didn't say or imply this. You are trolling at this point

>>11812503
I didn't say you said that, that's what's in the damn book. I think you either really misunderstood the book or didn't read it. It's funny because you're actually described in the book when they talk about brainless who argue just to argue

>>11812400

You’re looking at it wrongly and missing Plato’s sense of humor. It’s not that the perfect society isn’t possible or that it’s only possible under a philosophical elite but that society is innately irrational and humorous. Why are the warriors like dogs, and are they the same as guardians or not? Who knows because plato was drinking wine and laughing while he wrote it. The idea that women could be guardians too is ridiculous as well; one need only consult socrates and aristotle to see that this is true. As a historian I also have to point out that the republic was written over a period of 10-16 years, that plato was a drunk, and that he was paid for his work. As it stands, his book should be seen more as an entertaining story like one written by mark twain and less as a philosphical work crafted by someone like kant or hegel.

>>11812511
>I didn't say you said that, that's what's in the damn book
That's might be on wikipedia not in Republic

>>11812514
>entertaining story
>starts off by addressing the question of intrinsic justice

Pick one.

>>11812515
What version did you read that Plato didn't say philosophers should be king?

>>11812515
Not that guy, but Socrates explicitly argues that philosophers should be kings because they're the only class of people that understand true reality.

>but if I am to try and realize the ideal
of the State in a measure, I think that an approach may be made to the perfection
of which I dream by one or two, I do not say slight, but possible changes
in the present constitution of States. I would reduce them to a single one–the
great wave, as I call it. Until, then, kings are philosophers, or philosophers are
kings, cities will never cease from ill

>>11812514
>As a historian I also have to point out that the republic was written over a period of 10-16 years, that plato was a drunk, and that he was paid for his work.
I don't know about this but this could explain why even Plato allowed Socrates to be refuted sometimes in a funny way or reply with interjections. I noticed many and many times after harsh words Socrates would change the subject. In other dialogues he would proceed with caution examining the question. I think he was making fun of idealists but at the very least he wasn't describing a perfect society in any way he was showing how ridiculous it would be to propose a perfect administered city - the concept of justice is not applied to administration but rather it's about its value, personal and idealistic value.
>>11812522
It's not in the Republic. This theory that society must be ruled by philosophers is not found there

The views about perfect justice is also examined with harsh words (like saying Socrates was evil), it's part of the song of the work. It's not describing a perfect society in any way EVEN THOUGH he describes what perfect education is

>>11812547
My dude, someone posted a quote of it being said. On top of that, his philosopher king concept is famous enough even people who haven't read Plato know he said this so you should know too

>>11812573
>My dude, someone posted a quote of it being said
Read book VII. I won't quote here because character limitation. Then please answer to me again if he was talking about an ideal or an absurd
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D7%3Asection%3D514a

>>11812547
>It's not in the Republic. This theory that society must be ruled by philosophers is not found there
Not the guy you're arguing with, but what the fuck did you read? Plato/Socrates describes two different "ideal" cities. The first Glaucon writes off as a "city for pigs" and is one where the class distribution is flat and everyone works to satisfy their needs, with everyone specializing in what they're best at. It ironically resembles an ideal Communist state, lol.

The second one, which Socrates actually thinks is possible, is a tripartite society comprised of philosopher-kings, guardians, and producers. Basically, rulers, military, and laborers. The philosopher-king class are EXPLICITLY philosophers and Socrates takes great care in describing what a philosopher is, delineating it from the poet who merely imitates reality, not understanding the true forms. He even goes as far as to banish poets from this ideal concept of a city for this reason.

>>11812591
>The philosopher-king class are EXPLICITLY philosophers and Socrates takes great care in describing what a philosopher is, delineating it from the poet who merely imitates reality, not understanding the true forms. He even goes as far as to banish poets from this ideal concept of a city for this reason.
read the dialogue with emphasis on the dialogue (don't focus on his answers and questions exclusively). Book VI and VII can't be more clear.
I'll try to make an image with the best examples but it might take some time

>>11812400
Wow, it's almost like different people can take away different things from a book. Like, there's more than one way to interpret. Fucking nuts, eh?

>>11812400
>an utopian

>>11812400

>t. philosophy undergrad who got a shit grade on his plato test and now comes to /lit/ for validation on his retarded interpretation of Plato

Pic related

>>11812400
ok reddit

I can't believe everyone ITT — especially OP for calling Socrates a hypocrite! — has missed Socrates calling Kallipolis "a city for pigs." Shame on y'all.

Plato's Republic was his 1984.

>>11812400
I agree bro. People don't understand The Laws were EXOTERIC and The Republic was ESOTERIC

An utopian is ideal. That does not mean perfect or good. It is depended on what you deem ideal. Plato's ideal society is shit, because he was an old fat with shit ideas.

>>11812400
What would a city-state of the Pseud Kings look like?

>>11814620
The king would be chosen based on how many books they've finished, regardless of true understanding or intelligence

>>11812400
I'm going to let you all in on a little secret. The Republic isn't about a city at all, that's merely the form the discussion takes to consider the question at hand: Justice and its functioning within the Theory of Forms. Failure of the city merely adds another level to this functioning.
The Greeks didn't think as we do, and so derived meaning from things we may not even see.

Op is completely right. It's not a proposal of an utopy. It is a philosophical investigation just like any other work by Plato. Just like his Timaeus is not an explanation of the natural world --- it has conflicts with other platonic works. Plato was a real philosopher working on questions and not answers (that is for scientists, economicians and politicians)

>>11814661
'Functioning' is probably a bad word.
>Justice and its being cultivated through the Theory of Forms
The City is just the best way to investigate the Form of Justice, its total being.

>>11812400
Nice bait.

If this is real, you don’t understand The Republic and I feel sorry for your brainlet ass

>>11812422
This comment has been ignored in all 3 or 4 of these dumb Plato threads