/lit/ - Literature

>>11684784
The ruin of spirituality is pretty much modernism in a nutshell anon

Yes, read Weber. Charismatic and Rational forms of legitimacy are anathema. Modernity is dominated, even defined, by the rationalisation of all aspects of life.

>>11684784
>spirituality
>Islam
Pick one. What you claim never existed in the first place.

>Consider the Koran, for example; this wretched book was sufficient to start a world-religion, to satisfy the metaphysical need for countless millions for twelve hundred years, to become the basis of their morality and of a remarkable contempt for death, and also to inspire them to bloody wars and the most extensive conquests. In this book we find the saddest and poorest form of theism. Much may be lost in translation, but I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value. Such things show that the capacity for metaphysics does not go hand in hand with the need for it
-Arthur Schopenhauer

>>11684806
How is the Koran any way inferior or (superior for that matter) when compared to revelations found in the Old Testament (Judaism) or New Testament (Christianity)?

Why do you consider Christianity, Judaism true spirituality as contrast to that of Islam? Just interested.

>>11684815
Dude schopenhauer is dead

>>11684846
How did he make that post, then?

>>11684806
>a good argument
>this post

>>11684855
He had 4chan gold

>>11684806
>I hate the Koran
~ Arthur Schopenhauer

>>11684806
Little did Shoppy know but many of the ideas found in the texts he praised as 'the highest human wisdom' are found mirrored in Sufi texts and Sufism has always been an undercurrent running throughout the Islamic world.

>>11684784
The same thought occured to me some time ago. It somehow resembles the movie "They live", where world is so busy with materialistic goods and pursuing "happiness" that nobody sees the madness beneath it. Rene Guenon wrote quite extensively on the topic of modern world and death of spirituality. Even though I am not a big fin of esoteric wirters, it's hard not to agree with the point. In my opinion with the rise of capitalism we began to emphasise material goods over our inner well-being, which results in so cases of young people feeling "empty", looking at life as mere accumulation of as much goods as possible. Because of modern world, many of us cannot be who the wish to be. How many people on this board wished they could be a writer or a philospher, instead of working their shit job just because you have to live somehow.

"Men generally work too much to be themselves. Work is a curse which man has turned into pleasure. To work for work’s sake, to enjoy a fruitless endeavor, to imagine that you can fulfill yourself through assiduous labor—all that is disgusting and incomprehensible. Permanent and uninterrupted work dulls, trivializes, and depersonalizes. Work displaces man’s center of interest from the subjective to the objective realm of things. In consequence, man no longer takes an interest in his own destiny but focuses on facts and things. What should be an activity of permanent transfiguration becomes a means of exteriorization, of abandoning one’s inner self. In the modern world, work signifies a purely external activity; man no longer makes himself through it, he makes things. That each of us must have a career, must enter upon a certain form of life which probably does not suit us, illustrates work’s tendency to dull the spirit. Instead of living for himself—not selfishly but growing spiritually—man has become the wretched, impotent slave of external reality.

Where have they all gone; ecstasy, vision, exaltation? Where is the supreme madness or the genuine pleasure of evil? The negative pleasure one finds in work partakes of the poverty and banality of daily life, its pettiness. Why not abandon this futile work and begin anew without repeating the same wasteful mistake? Is subjective consciousness of eternity not enough? It is the feeling for eternity that the frenetic activity and trepidation of work has destroyed in us. Work is the negation of eternity. The more goods we acquire in the temporal realm, the more intense our external work, the less accessible and farther removed is eternity. Hence the limited perspective of active and energetic people, the banality of their thought and actions. I am not contrasting work to either passive contemplation or vague dreaminess, but to an unrealizable transfiguration; nevertheless, I prefer an intelligent and observant laziness to intolerable, terrorizing activity. To awaken the modern world, one must praise laziness. The lazy man has an infinitely keener perception of metaphysical reality than the active one."

>>11684790

and yet we all operate irrationally in a world of rationalism because we're incapable. we've become outdated.

Islam is a very bad example as it has historically been extremely negative towards spirituality. It only developed some spirituality with sufi practices and those were cyclically denounced by purists as heresy. Such cycle is peaking right now as sufism is on full retreat all over the Muslim world. It might rise again a century or so but overall Islam will still be low spirituality.

>>11685043
Not true. True Muslims spend a lot of time praying/meditating

>>11684815
It's not inferior. It's just devoid of spirituality. For various personal reasons (such as being mocked by a Jew mystic), Muhammad was extremely wary of monks and mystics of all kind and banned their practices for Muslims.

>>11685055
Mohammad just says to remain steadfast with God. This means having a lot of patience and understanding/having communion with God.

To be honest, if you’re a Muslim and you don’t know God’s personality you aren’t really a good Muslim

>>11684895
Sufists have often been considered heterodox and are hunted down by fundamentalists right now.

>>11684904
Capitalism turns everything into a commodity to be bought and sold.

>>11685069
Fundamentalist Quranists would never resort to violence.

Let me make one thing abundantly clear, and I’ve posted about this before, whenever someone talks about being a Muslim on /lit/ they are most likely white and most likely follow some form of Quranism. The Quran really is that great of a book.

The Hadith are another story entirely.

The Quran, for instance, says not to divide yourself into sects. I can tell you as a devout Quranist, I enjoy watching ISIS bastards die. They will burn in hell for being the infidels that they are I guarantee it

>>11685065
Muhammad explicitly banned the monastic practices Jewish and Christians mystics practiced in Arabia. Islam is the religion of the outward, no the inward. God is considered completely unknowable by most orthodox scholars. Muhammad himself never had direct access to God but always relied on Gabriel.

>>11684895
everybody love sufis except muslims

>>11685077
>Quranists

Also heterodox. Moreso than sufists. You pretty much only find them among Western converts noawadays.

>>11685082
Absolutely false. To have communion with God is the highest aim of a Muslim. You’re speaking to someone who has had long conversations to Arabs about this sort of thing.

The people who have no communion with God are those who use electronic devices constantly.

Don’t act like Christianity is too different from Islam: it’s not. Especially Quranism.

>>11685085
That’s exactly what I typed. Didn’t you read my post? I believe that a good Muslim would respect that we’re Quranists. If they don’t, then fuck them too.

>>11685084
Let's not exagerate. Sufism is still very popular in Subsaharan-Africa and the Indian Peninsula. It's only really the Gulf where it's been almost completely wiped out.

Tbh Muslims are in direct opposition of Christ, as he is the Son and the Lord, and no prophets would change his message.

>>11685102
Not true at all, a true Muslim believes in Christ’s teachings

>>11685105
They think Christ's teachings have been lost or are corrupted though.

>>11684784

Didn't the Saudi's demolish buildings that had been around since the time of the prophet, on the grounds that the veneration of the buildings was idolatry, in order to build that massive idol to themselves?

>>11685121
By the people who interpreted Christ, obviously. The people who made Christianity a religion.

Islam believes entirely in the Gospels though

>>11685105
Wrong, a big part of Christ's message is he is truth and false prophets will come and deny his divinity.

>>11685133
Truly you do not subvert to Christ as faith only arguement. Are you to imply the Church should not be built upon his eternal word? That's one of Pauls main points.

>>11685124
The Saudis seem very money oriented, with ties to the US. It wouldn’t surprise me that they, like Europe, don’t really take their religion seriously.

In the Quran it says that Christians are your best friends. So I am glad that America believes in God. They are just a bit off. It sucks that the media companies believe in Judaism but I will take the majority for a win in this case

>>11685133
That's not what i read. The orthodox position seems to be that the texts of the Gospel are themselves corrupted. Basically the idea is that although Christ is a prophet all his teachings have been corrupted so you should disregard them. Maybe Western Quranists have another view.

>>11685134
You didn’t counter anything I said. Mohammad believes in everything Christ said.

Christ never says he is Gods’ son. Not even in the gospels themselves. Read the Bible for a change.
>>11685134
Pauls main points helped to develop civilization around a tautology Christ did not even create. It’s no surprise. Paul is the false prophet here. Every prophets message has been misinterpreted, it’s Satan’s job to get in the way. Look at what a bad name the holy Quran gets these days

>>11685148
Maybe they should, because that’s what he Quran says.

Maybe the people who follow a religion should read the damn Book they believe in. I’m with you on that one.

>>11684846
>>11684855
>>11684877

I left this website for a few months and u guys are still arguing about the stupidest garbage

>>11685153
Christ literally says he is the one who is promised. Read the old testament to test this

>>11685163
Jesus Christ isn’t in the Old Testament

>>11685161
>Gods word
>stupid
All jokes aside, you are probably a teenage atheist that missed the button for reddit

>>11685077

>>11685153
>Not even in the gospels themselves.
john 5:18
even i know this and i'm an atheist
muslims claim to revere jesus aka esau as a prophet but it is not the same jesus as the bible

>>11685202

The OP isn't about religion it's about arguing about post modernism/modernism or whatever buzzword of the week is, you guys argue about the same stuff over and over again like it amounts to anything and you guys don't even know the meaning of half of it.

You don't ever get bored of the same thing?

>>11685087
The "communication" is one-way though. The only instance I can think of when Muhamed got to speak with God was when he traveled to Heaven, right? What does that tell you symbolically my dude?

>>11685199
You don't say!?!

>>11685046
And don't forget about being violent, so?

It's a really cool looking complex though. Who needs muh spirituality when you have coolness. Modernism is cooler.

>>11685133
and what does it make of the introduction to john's gospel then?

>>11685250
>anime
Point disregarded
>>11685359
Not at all. We’ve been over how the Quran abhors violence.
>>11685274
Nothing. Communion with God is an important part of any Abrahamic religion.

>>11685390
>>11685259
Worst Gospel.

>>11685398
>Islam believes entirely in the Gospels
>entirely

>>11685393
>Not at all. We’ve been over how the Quran abhors violence.
Still couldn't change the fact my dude.

>>11685393
If it tells you nothing you have contemplated upon this too little and most likely done little comparative religious study aswell

>>11685069
most of the major Islamic thinkers, philosophers and poets were Sufis

>>11685426
I have seen signs of the Lord and he is one, not any sort of family, or Trinity.

This philosophical inquiry begins with the Greeks, whose metaphysicians were true Muslims, from what they knew

>>11685453
>this is what muslims actually believe

>>11685393

>>11685025
there is no such thing as 'irrational' behavior
every choice by an agent is utility maximizing

>>11685453
God is one in 3 persons as Lord, Spirit and Son

>>11684806
I have this notion about how Islam especially is bound to place and language. In Arabic, in the desert. Islam thrives in poor places with harsh climates. Truly a desert religion, where scarcity reigns especially and the mere ritualization of language is a monolith

>>11685512
Nope. God is everything and has created everything.

>>11685501

we are aware that our behaviors are not optimized

>>11685543
>God is everything
Isn't that applying others to God?

Abraj Al Bait is the most incredible building in the world tbqhf
Also it’s technically postmodern architecture

>>11685563
Saying that others are a part of God, are not saying that they are God

>>11685501
>le homos economicus
Begone, ye materialist

>>11685575
You literally said "God is..."
Also respond to the anime free>>11685462

>>11685581
If God is everything, then how does that make 1/100000000000000th of God, God? Christfag logic everyone.

Your pic has been refuted before, by /his/ I think, who also reveres Islam

>>11685548
>>11685579
give me one (1) account of 'irrational' behavior

>>11684806
Lmao this post is just another reason why Schopenhauer is a hack

>>11685595
>/his/ who also reveres Islam

>>11685532
>I have this notion about how Islam especially is bound to place and language.
Funny thing is that this is exactly what the Islam fundamentalists in Indonesia are believing in order to get 'salvation' through slow but steady rejection of native culture and languages rooted in Hindu/Buddhism in favor of complete appropriation of the Islamic one that has been happening for the past few centuries. Everything Hindu/Buddhist/local animism (basically everything before the coming of Islam to the SEA archipelago) = Taghut, while every argument against this must be resolved by rigorous mental gymnastics and even violence.

>>11685600
Drug addicts who wish to be rid of their addiction yet continue?

Just want a qt Arab gf but who doesn't.

>>11685694
Nope lmao. They choose to take that next hit because, for them, it is the utility-maximizing option. Revealed preferences.

>>11684806
Depends what you call "spirituality" I find the following verses to be very spiritual.
57:20-24
Know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth and children - like the example of a rain whose [resulting] plant growth pleases the tillers; then it dries and you see it turned yellow; then it becomes [scattered] debris. And in the Hereafter is severe punishment and forgiveness from Allah and approval. And what is the worldly life except the enjoyment of delusion.
Race toward forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whose width is like the width of the heavens and earth, prepared for those who believed in Allah and His messengers. That is the bounty of Allah which He gives to whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty.
No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring it into being - indeed that, for Allah, is easy -
In order that you not despair over what has eluded you and not exult [in pride] over what He has given you. And Allah does not like everyone self-deluded and boastful -
[Those] who are stingy and enjoin upon people stinginess. And whoever turns away - then indeed, Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.


Moreover two of the names of Allaah in the Quran are:
The Subtle
The Patient

>>11684895
Sufis are just philosophers who converted to Islam instead of getting beheaded, despite how Guenon et al. will have it

>>11685809

Not either of anons above, but "all knowing and super-rational agent" is such a silly meme along with whole microeconomics. It's incredible anyone defends "le homo economicus" seriously, one hundred years after Keynes.
First off, any personal utility curve would be so fucking complicated thanks to psychology, changing realities of life&possibilities that it would be impossible to comperhend for anyone even if you could clearly calculate it. And you can't, because, suprise, psychology isn't into quantitive methods. Which really leads us to conclusion that people don't "maximize utility", instead they "do what they think (believe) maximizes utility". And whole rationality goes shoo out of the window.
Not to mention that we know of dozens of effects that are completely irrational: Bandwagon effect, Veblen Effect, Snob effect, and so on...
Second off: No agent is all knowing, and all understanding. We operate on simplifications, beliefs, predictions, tendency to take risks, opinnions of other, not much better informed individuals, climate, misconceptions, misinformations and many others.
Third off, neuroscience has already night-proven there's no such thing as free will. Rationalizing decisions mostly comes after making actual choice.

>>11685946
you don't need to be omniscient to make a rational decision. agents make rational decisions from their own pov given their own specific knowledge you stupid paternalist. I bet you believe in planned economies.

>>11685809
Revealed preferences is only a name and should only be used to calculate on macroperspectived. I needn’t explain why asserting that addiction isn’t a real thing falls flat

>>11685975
if a drug addict actually wanted to get clean more than they wanted their next hit, they would.

what's the difference from sufilism from the other forms of that religion? I don't know anything about it so why does this website seem to like it?

>>11686007
Sufi is outside-in and the others are inside-out.

>>11685960
Their decisions also are riddled with superstitions, feelings, beliefs, social convention, trust, confidence, habits, moods, greed,laziness, self-assurance, and billions of other flaws plaguing our reasoning, apart from topic of neuroscience really mocking concept of free will.
Economics are at the core completely irrational in practise, just as irrational are people themselves.
How otherwise come that, for example, before 2008 banks would give NINJA mortages en masse to unemployed people with no income at all, and those people would happily take them? One won't get his money back, other has no hope of paying it back, where's the logic and rationality here?

>>11685998
They dont ”want” to take a next hit, they are addicted to it. Addiction would mean that there is no rationale behind it, they are physically or mentally drawn to it, basically mind versus body. In this sense there is no battle of rationals and utility maximizing. To say it still is utility maximizing would be to deny the nature of addiction or redefining addiction

>>11684784
Modernism has fundamentally altered religion. Religion is now a symbolically empty system, and that symbolic richness has been transferred to scientist/technologism or whatever you want to call the drive for technological progress.

but that's late Victorian design

>>11685571
There is literally nothing postmodern about that building

>>11686044
why do you continue to treat rationality as if it were a completely alien force? If I am confronted with a choice between A and B, and I choose A, even though Gnon, were he in my shoes, would have chosen B, that doesn't mean my decision was irrational. Furthermore, rationality isn't 'contaminated' by, for example, social norms, which evolve as risk heuristics in the face of incomplete information. I can make a rational decision whether or not I ultimately choose to conform with the norm or not.

There is no such thing as 'irrationality' when it comes to an agent making choices for himself.

>>11686056
addiction alters your utility function, that's all there is to it.

>>11686138
This might be true, but then you cant make the connection between the utility-function and what a person wants

>>11686146
I have no idea what you're saying. A drug addict who continues to drugs literally wants to do drugs more than they want to not do them i.e. they get more utility from taking a hit than from abstaining. If they actually wanted to be sober more than they wanted drugs, they wouldn't do drugs.

>>11686173
Not gonna repeat myself, we simply dont have the same definition of addiction

>>11686180
you're simply retarded. addiction isn't de-personing.

>>11686190
It literally is though but whatever not gonna debate the validity of homos economicus, economics is too boring to discuss about

>>11684815
>How is the Koran any way inferior
Are the Hadiths not just fanfiction that got added in? 90% of your rules are total bullshit some cunts 200 years after the fact made up. Also islam destroyed the persian and byzantine empires, so there's that to be salty about.
In fact, muslims stole the "pray 5 times a day" thing from the zoroastrians, did they not? Just like christians stole christmas from the pagans. All abrahamic religions are fundamentally invalid, an amalgamation of previous faiths from peoples they overran and destroyed. I wouldn't be salty if you weren't book burning demons. I mean, I don't hate the hellenistic pagans now do I, nor the buddhists.
My problem with islam is that muslims do not even understand the origins of their own religion. Like the giant cube (kabbah, yes?) was a pre-islamic pagan artifact. Since islam's inception all they have done is persecute practitioners of other religions.
>>11685077
What muhammad originally intended and what islam has morphed into are two separate things. He wanted to invent a code so sand monkeys would stop leaving infant females out in the sand to die and other atrocities. 1500 years later that's exactly what still happens.
It's great that purists say that, but the fact remains 80% of muslims follow hadith and behave like barbarians. It was a good intention muhammad had but the final product is a log of shit.

>>11686194
there isn't an argument. drug use is a rational choice, just like anything else.

>>11686044
the ninja loans debts were sold for a profit to banks and collectors

>>11684784

I didn't think this building looked good at first during the daytime but when it lights up it has a cool aesthetic to it.

so what's wrong with it? are you bitching that it is not some kind of gold plated Catholic church? If your idea of spirituality is linked to how ancient something is or how much blind there is associated with it then your idea of God is really really warped honestly.

I mean I came from a protestant Christian background, became athiest, agnostic, and I'm trying to find God again and I think my problem beforehand is that protestants and catholics have a completely warped idea of what God is. Actually just look at the subreddit for Christianity and they talk more about politics instead of God which is materialistic and vain actually

>>11685077
>Fundamentalist Quranists would never resort to violence.

A large part of the Qur'an deals explicitly with warfare and when it is allowed, how spoils are to be divided, and the rewards of martyrdom and punishments for refusing to fight (either by fleeing or staying home during a campaign).

Also worth a look, for anyone pushing the "the bad stuff all came later" angle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Many of the earliest Muslim's expeditions were preemptive and in no way done in self-defense.

>>11684815

>>11685605
>pseud calling someone a hack

>>11685124
The only good Saudi is that prince who is killing tons of other Saudis and once he stops killing Saudis he'll be a bad one again.

>>11685124
I'm only aware of this one, which wasn't from the time of the Prophet but rather from the Ottoman empire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress

>>11686546
>>11685124
The Saudis are non-muslim satanists who are currently building a giant futuristic city called neom ("new future") on the grounds of mount sinai where the golden calf was worshipped. The logo of the city is an inverted pentagram. It will have its own laws and have more robots than humans.

>>11686248
It seems like the big thing folks who are disagreeing with you are missing is that personal rationality doesn't have anything to do with being visibly rational from the perspective of anyone else -- people take actions based on what their brains have determined to be the most optimal course. Neuroscience backs this up. Sometimes those actions end up being decisions that the future actor would look back on and be like "gee, that was a dumb move" but from the perspective at the time of the action it's absolutely whatever the person/brain has convinced itself as the most utility-maximizing action.

There's nothing incompatible there with saying that people consider their pasts and acknowledge making a mistake, or that other people from a different perspective looking at some actions taken might think "wow, that is certainly not going to help that person achieve their end goal."

>>11685393
>point disregarded
hahahahaha

>>11686599
based i love saudi's now

>>11686366
kek

>>11686599
Saudi' s internal conflict is more of the typical Brahmin vs Kshatriya caste conflict.

>>11686775
The "Brahmins" of Saudi Arabia are aspiritual salafis.

What does spirituality do?

>>11686829
What doesn't it do ?

>>11687687
Build roads.

>>11687702
It does.

>>11684784
Yes. Read Democracy in America from Tocqueville.

>>11685160
Wait wait so shopenhauer posts on 4chan? Cool, can we be internet buddies senpai?

>>11684784
Industrialization did.

>>11684815
There is absolutely nothing divine about Mohammed. He is susceptible to all the foibles and faults of humans. A ruthless warlord nonetheless. Absolutely incomparable to the pure and divine figure of Jesus Christ.

>>11685133
That Jesus is the son of God?

>>11684806
>I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value
look harder

>>11688909
>There is absolutely nothing divine about Mohammed.
that's the point and the appeal

>>11684784
we are living in the kali yuga

>>11688909
>There is absolutely nothing divine about Mohammed.

What about the miracles attributed to him? They are certainly "divine"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Muhammad

Why are these miracles any less true than the miracles of Christ?

>>11687712
Metaphorically yeah.

25% of the world is muslim approaching 30%. Is that not a miracle?

>>11685819

Christ is the way, the truth, the light. Allah is the greatest deceiver.
If you believe what they say of themselves
>>11684815
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver#Introduction

>>11689929
The (deceiving) aspect is used in context like this:
>That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
—Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa)

>Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive (Jesus), and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), but Allah is truly the most sublime of deceivers.

>>11689929
There's no word to mean "the" in biblical greek. But Allaah is The Truth (Al Haqq). That's one of His names. Your pastors (or priests or whatever really) will only lead you to hell with them.

>>11689895
Having high number isn't really something special, considering Muslims like to avoid persecution and criticism by using "they're not the true Muslims" for people who did bad, harmful things in real life, same thing could also be applied for those who only pretend to be a true believer too, just because they are born in it or that the older generation of Muslims in their environment are still dogmatic. Islam has been decadent like this for so long.

>>11690033
obviously its been decadent. Muslims generally accept only the first 3 generations as rightly guided. Muhammed literally was the beginning of the End.

>>11685087
Woah guys, this guy has talked with arabs

>>11685087
>Don’t act like Christianity is too different from Islam
It is, and that's for the best.

>>11690301
Anon, anyone having read both books will conclude, they're both dumb.

>>11690615
Anyone not fit for this discussion.