/lit/ - Literature

>>11657201
it’s shallow

Not really. Great image though I had a kek

>>11657201
I was too lazy to think of an answer to that question, so I decided to live as a hedonist. It was a fun ride for a while but the repercussions made it clear why being completely hedonistic isnt really pheasible, or healthy.

>>11657201
not really. in fact, many critics of hedonism are actually hedonists themselves, they just derive a more significant metaphysical pleasure in their denial of physical pleasure and believe it more noble. the ascetic is a masochist.

No, its just accepting your place in the universe

>>11657258
Sounds like they weren't completely hedonistic if they behaved in such a way that they eventually were in an unnecessary state of displeasure.
>>11657270
This. Do you know any good writers that speak toward this?

>>11657201
Probably.

>>11657276
>Your place in the univere
Nice spook you got there

Nothing wrong with hedonism unless the pleasures overrun the body causing disease, illness and other negative affects. Thus the true hedonist will consider the consequences of indulgence and constrain their desire to avoid greater pain in the future.

It depends on whether hedonism or the rejection of it actually implies anything, which we don't actually know. In the eyes of hedonistic philosophers like Epicurus, hedonism it's okay so long as it doesn't restrict future pleasures. In the eyes of Platonists it is a problem because it keeps us tethered to the material/particulars of the universe, which doesn't reflect the transendent nature of reality.

The question for Platonists is, then, if there is a formal attribute/archetype of pleasure that can be grasped with rationality. If that does exist, then what is it?

>>11657298
Most arguments against hedonism either attack an irrational hedonist strawman or assume unprovable trancendental truths rather than starting from uncertainty, uncertainty being the stance of the truly honest and humble man.

>>11657314
traps. traps are the answer.

No. What's wrong is incels judging because they are excluded and have forced their personal situation into a "morally ideal world view" as a method of coping. desu I just judged then and I feel bad about it but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette

>>11657286
nietzsche speaks on this.

>>11657201
Reminder that hedonist philosophers in ancient Greece like Epicurus were celibate and abstained from most of what we would today called indulgences.

Fpbp

>>11657360
The religiosity-as-hedonism point specifically? Exciting.
>>11657381
>who were th cyrenaics

>>11657201
>actually wrong
>wrong
what's this?

>>11657286
Or it's possible that constant dopamine stimuli makes your brain rewire itself to be resistant to dopamine thus making you do more and more to get pleasure

>>11657201
narrative addiction
if you're here, you're hooked

>>11657427
Have you never mildly enjoyed something? Is having a cup of green tea and sitting outside and enjoying the breeze destroying your brain and making it impossible to ever be happy again? Anti-hedonists always act like you're given 10 grams of joy at birth and if you use it up it's gone forever. Have you never heard of healthful, enjoyable habits, such as exercise or meditation or social interaction? Do you really think that valuing enjoying is comparable to, essentially, being an idiot methhead?

>>11657444
>exercise
>meditation
>social interaction
>hedonism
Pic related, it's you

>>11657201
diminishing returns and decay

>>11657474
>thinking that hedonism has to be stupid
Obviously if you're rational about seeking joy and avoiding pain you would build habits of thought and action that increase your joy both in the present and the future. Otherwise hedonism would be obviously wrong and nobody would defend it. Its only proponents would be people with vocabularies too small to use the term.

>>11657482
>anything can be hedonistic if I like doing it

>>11657530
How do you go about liking something without some level of pleasure?

>>11657314
well it always depends what kind of hedonism:
Person A eats 5 fullsize cakes everyday
Person B is obsessed with tennis more than anything
Person C jerks off 10 times a day
Person D is addicted to runners high
all of the above

>>11657418
low quantity and quality

>>11657541
>>11657482
>>11657530
The name derives from the Greek word for "delight" (ἡδονισμός hēdonismos from ἡδονή hēdonē "pleasure"

Hedonism is a school of thought that argues that the pursuit of pleasure and intrinsic goods are the primary or most important goals of human life.[1] A hedonist strives to maximize net pleasure (pleasure minus pain), but when having finally gained that pleasure, happiness remains stationary.

>>11657658
>>11657482
>>11657530
>>11657541
In the original Old Babylonian version of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which was written soon after the invention of writing, Siduri gave the following advice: "Fill your belly. Day and night make merry. Let days be full of joy. Dance and make music day and night [...] These things alone are the concern of men." This may represent the first recorded advocacy of a hedonistic philosophy.["

Scenes of a harper entertaining guests at a feast were common in ancient Egyptian tombs (see Harper's Songs), and sometimes contained hedonistic elements, calling guests to submit to pleasure because they cannot be sure that they will be rewarded for good with a blissful afterlife. The following is a song attributed to the reign of one of the pharaohs around the time of the 12th dynasty, and the text was used in the eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties.[4][5]

Let thy desire flourish,
In order to let thy heart forget the beatifications for thee.
Follow thy desire, as long as thou shalt live.
Put myrrh upon thy head and clothing of fine linen upon thee,
Being anointed with genuine marvels of the gods' property.
Set an increase to thy good things;
Let not thy heart flag.
Follow thy desire and thy good.
Fulfill thy needs upon earth, after the command of thy heart,
Until there come for thee that day of mourning.

Democritus seems to be the earliest philosopher on record to have categorically embraced a hedonistic philosophy; he called the supreme goal of life "contentment" or "cheerfulness", claiming that "joy and sorrow are the distinguishing mark of things beneficial and harmful"

If you felt like you weren’t getting enough pleasure from hedonism, then that’s what’s wrong with hedonism.

Well, you run into the Paradox of Hedonism - happiness cannot be attained by pursuing it directly. As Bennet says,
>Happiness is like a cat, If you try to coax it or call it, it will avoid you; it will never come. But if you pay no attention to it and go about your business, you'll find it rubbing against your legs and jumping into your lap

>>11657658
>>11657662
Here come the pseuds copy-pasting Wikipedia articles

>>11657541
>getting some level of pleasure from something is equivalent to hedonism
I'm going to run out of brainlets if you keep this up, anon

>>11657809
>Here come the pseuds copy-pasting Wikipedia articles
ftfy
*Here come the nonpseuds enlightening the pseuds who were such pseuds and so did not know what they were talking about they made a post such as: "Here come the pseuds copy-pasting Wikipedia articles" after being embarrassed that an easy, convenient good job post of a few blurbs of wiki, could so enlighten them

>>11657823
Well then by all means, if some fag talked about it in the epic of girugamesh then there's no possible way it or an anons perceptions of it could be wrong

>>11657201
Depends what you mean by hedonism. If just vague seeking of pleasure or satisfaction, then pretty much everyone is a hedonist anyway, by actions, mentality, and nature. I'm a hedonist when I intentionally spend time outside in the cold and wet, because then the warmth of inside feels good and varied, rather than monotonously comfortable (which is especially bad as everything else tends to be monotonously comfortable and safe). However, you could make hedonism mean something like a focus on human feeling, of pleasure and satisfaction, rather than on something else (such as god or collectivism). Even though the focus on god is obviously hedonism by the first definition, even if it isn't at the start, familiarity and fulfillment comes regardless. But not so by the 2nd definition, as its focus is not strictly on human experience. Hedonism tends to be sceptical and empirical, too. I think this is more in line with what hedonism originally was (for ancient Greek hedonists). Though I'm not sure the word has any proper meaning today. Just tends to mean unhealthy engagement in fleshly pleasure-seeking of consumer products, drugs, sex, and so on. Basically a broader form of gluttony.

>>11657201
Hedonistic behavior fucks over the next generation of people. Think of the income incinerating, nuclear family destroying, early neoliberal lifestyle boomers lived and how it absolutely fucked over their children and their children's children. Hedonism is not in your best interest.

>>11657482
Isn't that utilitarianism, not hedonism?

Yes. You are turning yourself into a meaningless little nigger monkey.

>>11657237
So is everything else

No real good answers so I'll tell you my experience with it: Hedonism sounds like a good idea, but in reality it only lasts a few hours at a time. After the hang over you need a better reason to not kill yourself.

isnt everyone a hedonist if you define it as chasing reward pathways in your brain? Can you even go against self interest? I mean in my opinion even the most "selfless" acts are done to seek some sort of brain high

>>11657658
>>11657662
If people actually read they would know these things already.
>>11657730
Weak paradox, only true when people are stupid and urgent about the affair. Of course you won't be happy if you seek out happiness in a state of anxiety, or if you are never satisfied with the happinesses you get. These are very clearly low quality stabs at acquiring happiness, though.
>>11657818
Ok
>>11657857
Hedonism as pleasure seeking and implicitly pain avoidance is what it has always meant in philosophical discussion. It has just become a dirty word, largely in the west due to Christian influence: consider Epicureanism, which essentially prescribes an ascetic hedonism but is remembered for more sensual enjoyments such as extravagent food, as in the term "epicure." You are also right in observing that hedonism has a strong association with empiricism, both in the sense of valuing sense information and in the sense of scientific empiricism. The Epicureans -- rather stupidly -- argued that sense information is more or less always incorrect, but a contemporary reader of the same persuasion is likely to acknowledge the Greek Sceptics alongside the epistemological concerns of Hume and Berkeley types and approach the situation in the general spirit of Jamesian pragmatism. Essentially, if nothing is known for sure, our purest compass of value appears to be the experience of valuing itself, which either is a kind of joy or is at the very least deeply correlated with it. The pragmatist then utilizes the provisional truths at hand to pursue joyous feeling-valuing as an activity. While one may comment that this is all inherently selfish, this is not so: every intelligent hedonic system values the joy of others, not only insofar as social interaction is typically a requirement of healthful living and one derives joy from seeing the joy of others, but also as a practical point of self-security, in Epicureanism the gathering of a small number of friends away from the city being a defense agaisnt attack etc., and in today's globalist world the concern for other countries reflecting an interest in reducing the looming global threats of nuclear holocaust and environmental collapse.
>>11657904
Only if you're stupid about it. You can be stupid about any other value system too, e.g. selecting "manly aggression" as a virtue. That isn't for the best of your children either.
>>11658414
Utilitarianism is when hedonism is made social, i.e. the greatest good (pleasure) for the greatest number of people.
>>11658555
Again, this is a stupid hedonism.

>>11657201
It slowly leads to passiveness and chronic sadness and boredom due to the lack of anything worthy

>>11658971
>due to the lack of anything worthy
would a person seeking to do worthy things, and accomplishing them, receive any 'pleasure' in doing so?

>>11657201
it leads to decadence

>>11657201
If you can get it and it doesn't posses you, no.

>>11659377
>>11658971
>>11658820
So hedonism would be about like:
if you had 2 job opportunities, job A is very hard on your mind and body, very stressful, hair turns grey and falls out, hurting body, strained mind, you are miserable, and hate it, and feel sick, but it pays $350,000 a year

Job B is so much fun, fulfilling, good on your mind and body, healthy, you feel refreshed and energized and inspired every day at work, and the happiest you have ever felt in your life but pays $45,000

One hedonist might take A, and one hedonist might take B. (A) reasoning they can receive more pleasure due to the more money in the long run. (B) reasoning they will receive more pleasure by living a little less luxuriously (retiring later too) and the pleasure of a life time of enjoyable work outweighs the possible pleasures of what money can do.

>>11659396
A serious engagement with hedonism! Awesome.

You are entirely right that the hedonic calculation is not always obvious or clearcut. I would personally argue in favor of option B. I think that it is important to remember that stress takes a physiologically measurable toll on the body and that negative feeling can become a habit. Consider, for example, people who travel a great deal when they are young, such as "army brats": it is appears to be typical that such persons, in adulthood, easily grow restless staying in any one place and therefore are compelled to move often. One could also point out cases of childhood abuse: there is a great deal of literature in both psychotherapy and neurophysiology about adults who have been abused carrying particular maladaptive patterns of behavior and brain structure into adulthood.

These are slightly unfair examples in that they discuss environmental factors in development rather than environmental factors in adulthood, but it's a similar concept, that engaging in a particular kind of feeling or life situation for a long period of time can lead to an ingrained habit of it with a neuroscientific correlate. The same is true of job A. Postponing one's enjoyment of life is a dangerous business because depression etc. can become habitual just as much as anything else. While job B offers lesser financial means, job B, I would argue, in fact makes a habit of being happy, healthful, etc., a habit which would carry over into retirement.

There is also the point that one can postpone joy forever. Many religious believers essentially postpone joy until the afterlife! While one should not be reckless in their pursuit to enjoy the moment at the price of future moments, e.g. methhead behavior, it is important to remember that one could really die at any time, and the present moment, epistemologically speaking, is all that is ever really "real" or "known" in the most absolute sense (whatever the particulars of experience; selfhood could be an illusion, for example, but that does not make experiencing any less real).

"The pursuance of pleasure is something that people can easily fall into given our meaningless existence. Hedonism is easy to follow because it seems logical to pursue things that feel good. In a world where nothing is Logical due to the core absurdity of existence, countless people rely on the thought that pursuing pleasure is Justified because it feels good, and what feels good must be the Right thing to do. This is destructive simplistic thinking.

The “feeling good” aspect of hedonism is short-term physical gratification and does not lead to long lasting content with one’s existence. The effects on one’s mind and health in pursuing hedonism are deep. Hedonism is escapism and giving up. It is the opposite of facing the challenges of being human. In the end pursuing hedonism leads to deep dissatisfaction and self-destruction. It also leads acutely to the destruction of a civilization.

A person who follows hedonism as a philosophical guideline does not have the courage or self-control to think past the consequences of it’s simplicity, nor can they see the destruction it inflicts on their lives and society, because they feel good. Hedonism is destructive because it weakens the mind and narrows the mind. Reducing ones existence to seeking pleasure takes away the individual’s ability to appreciate and accomplish other things.

Like all destructive states of being, hedonism is insatiable. Once a hedonistic person desires pleasure and obtains that pleasure, they desire more and more pleasure to satisfy their craving. The biological facilitator of pleasure is dopamine, in which a person needs a larger and larger “fix” to get their “kicks”. This insatiability is destructive because the mind of a person who pursues pleasure to no end disintegrates. Sexually the hedonistic person becomes perverted, degenerate, and it breaks down their ability to form a bond with another person beyond the use of the other person to quench a sexual need. As a hedonistic person bounces from one sexual partner to another, they are less able to form a meaningful relationship. Later you will see how this plays out in the person’s lifetime and how it is expanded to society as a whole. Pursuing sexual deviances and sexual extremes leads to the erosion of society. Hedonism leads to societal decadence. A society in which it is no longer necessary to be strong and disciplined disintegrates into a decadent society and a decadent society will disintegrate until it becomes necessary to discard hedonism in order to survive or else it will fall into societal collapse- or even worse- remain stagnate in a hell of decadence.

Hedonists seek instant gratification, and only gratification, and with this they don’t have the discipline to accomplish anything. Reducing one’s existence to the pursuit of pleasure reduces one’s mind to a simplistic undisciplined slop. The person neglects other needs and must rely on other strong people to help them accomplish things.

A lot of times the pursuit of pleasure leads to the direct result of something acutely destructive happening on top of the slow destruction the mind. People may overdose on drugs. People may destroy their bodies with gluttony. These people become either useless or dead.

In the end hedonists are self-destructive because they create a life that is not worth living. There is no wonder in the hedonist’s mind. At the core of the hedonistic person is a person that is really depressed, because pleasure does not facilitate self-actualization, a connection with the universe, or any connection with others.

Although the pursuance of hedonism is destructive, it is good to seek some pleasure as part of experiencing and enjoying life and to act as a pressure valve. Pursuing some pleasure is not only “not destructive”; it is absolutely necessary and beneficial to pursue some pleasure. The complete deprivation of all pleasure is destructive. By denying oneself from all pleasure the person only fuels the deep down desire to pursue pleasure until this pressure builds up and manifests into the person rejecting their choice of denial and swinging to the other extreme end of the spectrum into the complete pursuance of hedonism and destruction.

This is not a go ahead to do whatever you want as a release of the pressure valve. A small component of ones life should be seeking pleasure, control and discipline are highly important. And by only pursuing “some” pleasure I don’t only mean the magnitude, I mean only certain avenues of pleasure. Certain avenues of pleasure should not be pursued at all due to their far-reaching negative consequences and the extent one delves into an area of pleasure should be greatly restricted. The complete denial of sexual urges is bad, but these sexual urges must be taken care of in a healthy way. Seeking to gratify sexual urges through numerous sex partners, porn, or sexual deviancy should be discarded."

My mom divorced my dad because the sex was bad and married an alcoholic narcissist she'd apparently been fucking on the side. When that relationship collapsed she married someone who was more dog than man because he was obedient. He got fired and was unable to find new work. Then she developed alzheimers and now nobody can care for her, not even the children she fucked over through these and other shenanigans. Feels good.

>>11657276
Pathetic

>>11659515
>>11659515
>The “feeling good” aspect of hedonism is short-term physical gratification and does not lead to long lasting content with one’s existence.
>A person who follows hedonism as a philosophical guideline does not have the courage or self-control to think past the consequences of it’s simplicity, nor can they see the destruction it inflicts on their lives and society, because they feel good. Hedonism is destructive because it weakens the mind and narrows the mind.
> As a hedonistic person bounces from one sexual partner to another, they are less able to form a meaningful relationship.
>Hedonists seek instant gratification, and only gratification, and with this they don’t have the discipline to accomplish anything.
>People may overdose on drugs. People may destroy their bodies with gluttony. These people become either useless or dead.

Standard strawman of hedonism as automatically being irrational, unsustainable hedonism. Try harder. Also:

>Once a hedonistic person desires pleasure and obtains that pleasure, they desire more and more pleasure to satisfy their craving.

So there is no such thing as a positive, healthful habit? c.f. my comment earlier that anti-hedonists act like we get 10 grams of joy at birth and if we use it all up it's gone forever. Also:

>There is no wonder in the hedonist’s mind.

Wonder is a pleasant feeling, friend. Also:

>This is not a go ahead to do whatever you want as a release of the pressure valve. A small component of ones life should be seeking pleasure, control and discipline are highly important.

This is basically a description of rational hedonism.

>>11657201
You can't live outside of society's expectations unless you live outside of society.

>>11659513
>>11659396
Ok, and another example, more colloquial use of the term which is why its considered bad:

Person A eats junk food all day, is in a continuous swirl of sugary and fatty pleasure, doesn't exercise, because in the moments it feels better to eat cookies than get up and move.

Person B eats healthy food and exercises regularly, because even though their peaks of pleasure feeling is not as high as person A (from their: symbolic drugs), they don't suffer from the deep opposing troughs of those crests, which beg for more and more often the highs, but (B) receives a general continuos good feeling, even though they may willfully force themselves to do things they dont want, like get off the comfy pleasurable couch, and drive to a building, where they move their body a lot.

Antibiotic resistant gonorrhea, HPV and Herpes.

>>11659624
The big derision being, the valuing of short term pleasure over long term wellbeing and pleasure: representations of which would be concepts like, Yolo and Fomo

>>11659624
>>11659826
The colloquial use of the word hedonism automatically assumes that it is impulsive/irrational/inefficient, which is obviously a bad way of going about it. I understand that you understand that rational hedonism as I advocate it clearly supports person B, here, but your use of another example and your desire to mention the colloquial use imply to me that you are defending the colloquial use. If the term hedonism is either irrevocably sullied or otherwise should simply be taken to align with the colloquial meaning rather than the technical meaning, what term would you suggest that I use in articulating a rational hedonism?

>>11657201
>Is there anything actually wrong with hedonism?
Is there anything wrong with being morbidly obese or a crack head? Has a person ever, when all is said and done, thankfully sought help with their addiction?

>>11659862
>articulating a rational hedonism?
Hedonism-of-wholesome-happiness? Or Healthy-Hedonism? Or rational hedonism may work

>>11659862
>Hedonism-of-wholesome-happiness? Or Healthy-Hedonism?
but even the aura of the term hedonism does appear tainted, because it seems to (right or wrong, my tainted perspective or it) signify 'fiendishness', obsession, crazed desire, it still turns people off, grosses people out, shames them, at the thought of a person craving and desiring and seeking so much, pleasure.

Like even: Hedonism-of-wholesome-happiness
like, addicted to it, obsessed with it, strongly, fiendly, craving wholesome happiness, more, more, I need more, I want it soo badd, yeah, give it to me, more, I want more and more, I cant get enough, ugghhh, moremoremore, nownownow

This is literally the only problem in philosophy that has been solved beyond any doubt.

Hedonism is so retarded even the most ancient civilisations collectively realised it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

>>11657201
Hedonism is unsustainable. At first it's fine, but eventually your life will snowball as you find it takes more and more extravagences to please you. Like the drug user who needs to continuously up his dose and even then he fails to reach the level of pleasure from that first hit. The hedonist will never be satisfied. You have to ask yourself the question: Will I be happier if I am satisfied with having less or if I continually seek to have more?

>>11657201
>Is there anything actually wrong with hedonism?
people who generally abide by hedonism are fat, ugly, lazy, have low IQ and are disgusting moochers who open threads on anonymous imageboards asking if their hedonism is justified.

Right, wrong, who cares. There is nothing more revolting than the hedonist. Life unworthy of life.

>when you're right about everything but some internet 'scholars' incessantly shitpost about DUDE SEX AND DRUGS LMAO
Just read Epicurus you miserable pseuds

>>11657201
It's not sustainable and you can't actually get what you desire as its a thing in itself

All these dumb pseuds mistaking hedonism for eudemonism. Even stoicism seeks pleasure, but in an un-hedonistic way.

>>11657201
It's dissipating. I have extended male family members who didn't do shit with their lives because they spent their youths fucking and partying.

>>11660032
Eudaimonia is a hedonic tactic you tard

>>11660253
>Eudaimonia is a hedonic tactic

>>11659519
>These people become either useless or dead.
if the only thing you care about is whether a person is useless or not, why would such a person not just focus on what feels best for them? Surely their usefulness is predicated, and means, how good they make others feel?

>>11658528
wrong

>>11659941
If you read your own link you would see how heavily disputed the idea of hedonic treadmill is

>>11660327
such as, evidence?