/lit/ - Literature

>>11622594
I don't know about that
"I'm going to die an untouched virgin" are pretty fucking true words that I just spoke to the emptiness of my room

>>11622608
There's nothing wrong with being a virgin. Let go of your material desires and work instead on improving yourself.

>>11622618
But I LOVE girls and have no outlet for this love
I don't want someone to fuck, that would simple to get. I want someone to love. and yes, ai know that in today's matrix this idea of romance is pure puerility but I still can't help it

>>11622594
Requires the usual assumption that X is and must be a last resort in the total absence of Y, as evidenced by this line of thought with no rationale for why this is the only line of thought.

>The cheapest sort of pride is personal pride, because if you weren't shit you'd value your contributions to something greater instead of your own selfish ego
>The cheapest sort of pride is selfless pride, because if you weren't shit you'd have some goals or standards instead of hijacking others'
>The cheapest sort of pride is the sort anyone else agrees you should feel, because if you weren't shit you'd value yourself as distinct from those millions of other clowns instead of being the clowniest clown in the room
I could go on.

>>11622640
Well, how long and how hard are you willing to work to find a soulmate for the rest of your life?

>>11622640
>I don't want someone to fuck, that would simple to get.

stop bitching chad.

>>11622640
Love died with God. Find a religious girl (not evangelical) or give up the idea.

>>11622594
You haven’t read his essay on women then.

>>11622594
As a diaspora Bosnian, this quote strikes painfully close to heart

Is this man right in literally everything?

>>11622640
>I want someone to love. and yes, ai know that in today's matrix this idea of romance is pure puerility
You say shit like this and wonder why nobody wants to love you.

>>11622594
>it argues that he has no qualities of his own that he can be proud of

Why does this follow? Having personal pride does not logically contradict having "recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen."

The rest of it is just asserting assumptions as to why a man who is proud of his own qualities wouldn't be proud of his nation, in particular because there are things that nations can do with both their population size and lifespan that are impossible for individual men to do (create comprehensive bodies of literature, art, research, etc.; build cities, military, and infrastructure collectively).

Also, you can just as easily argue against personal pride without reference to national pride. Your genes and circumstances are random, so why would you be proud of them?

The answer, I think, is that pride is an innate and healthy quality of humans which is non-rational and non-ideological, and because it's not an ideology there's no logical critique of it. It would be like critiquing sadness, anger, or joy.

>>11623875
>a diaspora Bosnian
Feel you brate

>>11622608

>>11624793
Imagine someone being this incel they make this

>>11624801
All you did was respond in exactly the way the picture said you would.

Though I don't think antinationalism is an untenable position, I think intellectuals tend to be antinationalists for the same reason they are often personally insecure - their intelligence allows them to perceive their own flaws more clearly. Is intellectual self-criticism really better than dumb pride?

>>11622594
And what's the problem with that? Even if I grant that everything he says is true, these people need something to feel proud of so that they can feel like their life has some kind of purpose, that their actions aren't a meaningless waste.

>>11622594
>The accomplishments of your ancestors mean nothing; the sacrifices of the generations before you mean nothing; the collective actions of your community, society, and family mean nothing; you're just an atomized individual who has no meaningful ties to anything in the world.
This is the kind of thinking that created out current social catastrophe. Even if it's true and our connections are just mental constructs, that's not something that you should teach people because it will destroy any meaning or meaningful relationships that they have in their lives. These sorts of illusions are for our good and when they're taking away all that's left is a void.

>>11622594
I technically agree with that quote, but isn't this our nature? Aren't we programmed to protect our tribe, which will allow us to survive?

As an egocentric retard, I despise people whose most important values are "country" or "religion", but I appreciate their sacrifice and effort.

>>11622640
>love
grow up

>>11624924
nation states were invented 350 years ago

>>11623882
Kill yourself

>>11624932
I am talking about the general idea of community. Aren't nation states nothing but another flavour?

>>11624941
Holy shit calm down

>>11624932
Vast oversimplification

>>11624942
you could say that about literally any gathering of people. except within a nation, as opposed to say a sports club or even an imageboard, you are never going to come into contact with the vast majority of its members be it simply because of the size of many countries or because of class divisions.

What the fuck I love fifth columnists now. People with whom I share blood, history, culture, language and morals are losers with no qualities of their own. Just let your country crumble LMAO, what are you a prideful faggot? You want to take care of your country and your people and yourself? You want to feel good about your accomplishments and the accomplishments of your kin? You want to love life and raise healthy children? Fuck you. Wallowing in self-hatred is the best way to live.

>>11624976
t. riggered loser

>>11624976
>frogposter
>phoneposter
>/pol/tard
>incel
>bigot
>cringe
There. Just saved /leftypol/ some time. If you aren’t a nationalist, kill yourself. Post some Shrek memes now, rootless bugmen.

>>11623875
Well you're as bad as a diaspora Albanian so there's that.

>>11624976
Yes, yes, good goy just state the opposite viewpoint in a post-ironic way without actually attacking the substance of the argument. That will destroy the argument.

Alt-reich pls go.

>>11622927
>implying that personal pride is mutually exclusive with contributing to something greater
>implying that helping others is "hijacking their goals"
>imypling that's not what Schoppy said (if I understood you right, that sentence is all kinds of weird)
Do go on with more examples though.

>>11624809
Oh wow, I guess you really showed him then! Look, a car outside my window. I predict it's gonna keep driving.
It did! I'm a genius!

>>11622927
You're attacking the argument formally not substantially tho. The argument is clearly not meant to be attacked in that way if you're going to attack it at all.

>>11624976
Daamn, you are one triggered little dumbshit. Really strong argument, too!
>You want to feel good about the accomplishments of your kin
It sure is a good thing that you can support your fragile little ego and its useless contributions with what millions of people you've never met contributed before you.

>>11625016
>Alt-reich
Hey, /leftypol/. Looks like I missed that one >>11624995.
>someone actually spent time making this
>imagine being this triggered
>WAAAA
>yikes…
>stormfag
>t. kekistani
Let me know if I’m missing any more. Don’t forget to post that picture of the fat man wearing a MAGA hat holding a cake with Pepe on it.
>>11625046
>trigggerd
Already on the list, sorry.

>>11625046
How about being proud of your family? Those aren not your accomplishments so by that logic you shouldn't care for those which are not your own. Sharing something, be it family or nation, is more than just pride, its the joy of sharing something with others

>>11625046
Do you have siblings? Do you feel proud of them when they accomplish something? Does it make you feel proud to be related to him? Are you happy for him? Fuck you. You probably hate your family though, being the atomised communist faggot you are.

>>11625016
reddit pls go

>>11625046
>NO SISTER, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOU GETTING YOUR DOCTORATE, I DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH THAT SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY CARE ABOUT THAT, I'M A VERY SOPHISTICATED INDIVIDUAL
t. moron

>>11624932
Wrong.

>>11625057
Your argument sounds like the slippery slope but in reverse.
>Proud of your family? means you should also be proud of your nation too unless you want to contradict yourself
You can be proud of your family because you grew up with them and shared a household with them and still dislike the policies of the state you're living in

>>11625069
How so?

>>11625057
>How about being proud of your family? Those aren not your accomplishments so by that logic you shouldn't care for those which are not your ow
Anon, I love my family, I don't take personal pride in them except to the extent that I'm actually a contributing member of my family. It's a social group that I have a direct, active part in shaping. What some guy 500 miles from here that I've never met does, or what some bloke did 100 years ago, I had no part in shaping that, so I don't take pride in it. I can be glad that they did something beneficial, but that's not pride, that's gratitude. And of course sharing stuff with others can be MORE than pride, but we are discussing pride, not those other things.

>>11625076
I'm just drawing a parallel. Tell me how being proud of a certain group of people is different from the other

>>11625068
>my sister got a doctorate, i'm so proud of myself
t. (you)

>>11625082
You can take part in shaping your country though. If you participate in something that improves your nation as a whole, then can you be proud of your countrymen for embracing it?

>>11625089
>I can't read

>>11625091
If you invent a better way of doing something that benefits others, then you should take pride in that, because like in the example I used with my family, you, yourself, have contributed to something greater. Take pride in that. Schoppy wants you to. That's not national pride, however. National pride is to take pride in what someone ELSE did, merely because you're from the same nation.

>>11625085
Like I said, being proud of your immediate family is makes more emotional sense since you grew up with them, did things together, had the same parents, grew up under the same household, probably played the same video games, etc.

Being proud of your country is different because you're more detached from the many parts of the elements you're proud of in a way that can't be encapsulated like growing up with a family. You don't see many of your countrymen. Some of them might be criminals. You might not share the same culture as them because they might be an immigrant with a strong sense of their own countries particular culture. They will probably not share the same personality traits as you. All these ideas are very vague and ill-defined as you can see, and by ideas I mean the individuals who make up the constituent elements of what you consider being proud of. There's a lot of things to not be proud of in your country too. Using your own parallel against you I can say that when a family member does something stupid we fail an unpleasantness at his doing the stupid thing, hence no pride in what he does. Similarly, when the state does something people consider stupid we also lose confidence and pride in what the state does.

>>11625097
It's an oversimplification in my opinion. It's not merely because they were born in the same country, but that they are your countrymen AND achieved something great, perhaps with your help

>>11625106
excuse the spelling mistakes

>>11625107
>perhaps with your help
With your help or without your help? That's the question. Have pride to the extent that you help.

>>11625076
>>11625106
You grew up with your neighbours and shoolmates and you shared a town with them. Why do you want the West to loathe itself to the point of suicide? Why do you want people to be consumerist drones who can’t strive for or believe in a community of shared goals and ideals?
>>11625089
Kill yourself, you fucking faggot. That’s not what he said and you know it. You’re not bringing anyone over to your side of thinking and there’s no upvotes for you to get here. Re-evaluate who you are.

>>11625057
Do you share your accomplishments with every single american you meet on the street or just the ones you know?

>>11625118
I don't think that the personal element matters that much. Let's say you support something and your countrymen embrace it. Can you be proud of them being forward-thinking and accepting?

>>11625125
>everyone is american

>>11625119
>You grew up with your neighbours and shoolmates and you shared a town with them. Why do you want the West to loathe itself to the point of suicide? Why do you want people to be consumerist drones who can’t strive for or believe in a community of shared goals and ideals?
I love the west my dude. Just some things like mass surveillance, breaking the geneva conventions, pointless wars, wealth inequality, excessive debt everywhere I'm not proud of. I'm not attacking the west. I just think it could be better than it is right now. My country's mass culture is trash and most of it has forgotten the great ideas of the west. I critique only what I love.

>>11625127
I gotta go, I might be back later, but don't count on a reply, sorry.

>>11625135
So you want everyone to feel ashamed about the bad things but not feel pride about the good things?

>>11625145
There are more bad things than good things right now.

>>11625132
This website is frequented mostly by Americans, it's day to day operations deeply influenced by American society. So it's entirely valid to assume most people you meet here are Americans.

Just change it to the nationality of your choice, the question still stands.

>>11622594
Schopenhauer keeps being right someone stop him

>>11622640
>love
hahahahahahah

>>11625147
So you want everyone to feel ashamed about the bad things but not feel pride about the good things? Maybe if people took about more pride in their culture and their countries they would feel more inclined to participate in politics and try to change their countries for the better instead of being smug “citizens of the world” who contribute nothing.

>>11625152
That's a whole different discussion it seems. I take pride in the western tradition not my country.

>>11625159
Pride is what drives improvement. Pridelessness leads to decay.

>>11625163
Insofar as my country is influenced by the western canon and its tradition, that's as far as I am proud of it. To the extent that it isn't, that's how much I dislike it. Revolution is necessary. People have gotten too passive. Brave New World kind of passive.

>>11622594

The problem with this argument is that you only require one single individual of notable achievement who is proud of his nation to falsify the claim that "if a man is proud of his nation, it argues that he has no (prideful) qualities of his own."

Richard Wagner, Mao Se-Tong, Henry Ford, H.P. Lovecraft, etc. Again, you only need one to falsify this claim.

I would argue that you are actually more humble by having collective pride, given certain circumstances. Imagine if you took pride as Shakespeare for your collective works - well, are they entirely yours? Did you create the English language? Did you create the economic conditions that allowed for spare earnings to be spent on theatrical entertainment? Are not half the tales you create just retellings of old European folk tales, historical accounts, and myths?

For Shakespeare to be proud of himself alone would be to be more arrogant in assuming what he is responsible for, than would he be if he instead had a more shallow buy more general pride for his nation and ones from which he appropriated culture.

>>11625046

If you had a strong foundation for your confidence, you wouldn't feel the need to belittle others and call them 'fragile'.

>>11624811
it depends on in what respect you mean "better". and even there the answer may be relative

>>11625127
You should be (now it sounds like I'm trying to program you or someshit) glad that they do something that benefits them and others, and proud with yourself if you've taken part in making this happen. But some kind of overarching, continuous pride in everything your nation does, what's the basis for that? What about the bad things? Should everything bad that happens in your nation be a source of shame or humilitation for you, just like everything good is apparently a source of pride? Why just the good things? As Schoppy said: "he is ready and glad to defends all its faults and follies tooth and nail." Do people who aren't nationalists not celebrate when they think their country is moving in the right direction, while still lamenting when it moves in the wrong one? And what about people from other nations who adopt the things you promote, why are they different, why should you feel differently about them doing the right thing? What if your country turns down something good but your neighboring country embraces is? Separate issues are separate issues, and the good that others do is not the same that the good that you do. A nation is not a coherent unit or issue, it's a bundle of largely separate issues, and you should judge every person, every law, every development separately.

>>11625213
>If you had a strong foundation for your confidence, you wouldn't feel the need to belittle others and call them 'fragile'.
So if I'm confident, I have to pretend that everyone else is confident too, even if they don't seem that way to me, else I'm not confident?

>>11625032
Wait, that implies that that simple near certain prediction is equivalent to the arguing chart prediction on women. Lol.

>>11625213
He doesn't say that everyone with national pride has no great qualities of his own, though. Just that most of them don't, and they don't. That's what makes it cheap. A vicarious form of greatness is hardly greatness at all.
I think most people can agree that collective guilt is bullshit. Why is collective pride any different? To me this merely reflects the tendency to be less selective in accepting information which reflects positively on oneself than negatively. And historically speaking, (excessive) nationalism tends to lead to dangerous hubris rather than any sort of humility.

>>11625370
No, you tard, it argues that anyone who posts such retarded /r9k/ rubbish is obviously gonna be laughed at almost anywhere else, and that predicting that doesn't fucking prove or show a thing.

>>11625399
I thought the image was talking about arguing with women in general, not just ones where they would be laughed at. That argument doesn't make much sense.

>>11625320

>I have to pretend that others are confident

I never said that. You used the words 'triggered', and 'little dumbshit'. Don't pretend you were doing anything else than slurring against the other anon and trying to hack away at him.

>>11625395

>He doesn't say that everyone with national pride has no great qualities of his own, though

I see the other interpretation as being more valid. He presents national pride as only occurring due to a lack of personal accomplishment. In your favour, he uses the wiesel term "it argues", so in actuality he says very little, although this may be a fault of translation. If Einstein and Wagner can be exceptions to his rule, then I don't see his rule as particularly valid in the way it is generally used. I.e. to make individualists feel smugly superior to others.

>Collective pride is incorrect because collective guilt is incorrect

I would argue that that is not true because collective guilt as it is widely used is not actually the opposite or a related concept to collective pride.

To be a lamb born from a pedigree of lions is something I'd see as a source of shame, for it is to decline in virtue an expectation and elevation of excellence. So too, is there sense in maintaining the pride of a lineage or race's excellence, or even making its legacy superior. These I see as the opposite and brotherly concepts of collective pride and guilt, not of vicarious pride and guilt as others use the terms. Vicarious guilt I see as a concept wholly distinct from the guilt of failing to maintain legacy, and so I do not see the qualities of one having any bearing on the qualities of the other.

>>11625399
>retarded /r9k/ rubbish is obviously gonna be laughed at almost anywhere else, and that predicting that doesn't fucking prove or show a thing
But that isn't what the image said.

>>11625809
What about collective shame then?

>>11625809
>I never said that. You used the words 'triggered', and 'little dumbshit'. Don't pretend you were doing anything else than slurring against the other anon and trying to hack away at him.
When did I pretend that? I'm blatantly telling you that's the only response such idiocy deserves. There's a bloody good reason why robots are social outcasts: they're laughably stupid.