/lit/ - Literature

Edmund Burke

the bible

>>11441652
Unironically this

>>11441652
Burke is weird because he really and truly is "conservative," ie he wants things to stay the way they are at his time, without any movement either forward or backward.

I always think of William F. Buckley's definition of conservatives as people "standing athwart history yelling 'stop!'". There's something pathetic and self-defeating in it, which I'm sure Buckley was smart enough to notice. Burke really, really likes the way England stands in the middle/end of the 18th Century--he likes the "settlement" in the aftermath of the Glorious Revolution, and he likes the balance England has achieved between the powers of Parliament and the powers of the King.

Now, he may be right to like it. It may indeed have been ideal. But by today's standards Burke would be an extreme reactionary. Do you see any British politician, even Jacob Rees-Mogg, calling for the Queen to exercise genuine temporal power? Of course not, but Burke saw it as vital to the health of the English state. He just didn't want the monarch to be absolute.

So, I tend to be somewhat unimpressed with people who call themselves "conservatives." I always assume they were wild hippies in their youth, and then they settled down and retired from their experimental lifestyles, and they proceeded to be shocked when the next generation of vagabonds and rebels wanted to push progressive ideas even further than they did. They seem oblivious to the fact that you can't keep society in a stasis. If you're not going to move "backward" (whatever that means), you're inevitably going to move "forward" (whatever that means). Nothing stands still.

I self-identify as a reactionary, so you can guess where I stand on these things.

Personaly i like to start with the members of The Club; Edmund Burke, Adam Smith, Samuel Johnson.

>>11441714
>Burke is weird because he really and truly is "conservative," ie he wants things to stay the way they are at his time, without any movement either forward or backward.
no he's not. he's anti-imperialist, during the age of empires.
>>11441652
this especially if you mean tories since him. if you don't mean them, he's still most of the basis of the conservative parties elsewhere, since empire spread a lot of his ideas to those. if you mean tories before him, you probably want to go back to peel and the tamworth manifesto.

burke is the reason why a lot of libertarian policies tend to be considered conservative more than liberal in the west (since his ideas picked at both the tories and the whigs, he can't really be considered party aligned in his lifetime, but the tories took after him especially in the later 19th and 20th C, while the whigs and liberals were squeezed out by labour on the left).

>>11441645
This is probably self-evident but a lot of the roots of present day ideas goes beyond the domains of “conservative literature” or “left wing literature recommendations” or whatever.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, I just think you get a lot more insight into such things by reading beyond difficult and self-identifying boundaries - hope curious lurkers start with the Greeks.

It seems to me that one has to consider Burkes move from a reformer to a conservative, and what he is reacting against. Burke is never stationary in his thinking, which is one of the things that is so wonderful about him. Conservatism extracts however, it's core principles from his marvelous writing.

>>11441748
One could i am sure say that Aristoteles is the first conservative. The ethics have a serius place in modern conservative writing

>>11441726
>Adam Smith
HAHAHA

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."
Chesterton

>>11441645
Pierre Manent
Tocqueville
Strauss

>>11441767
Not Plato?

>>11441645
Deleuze and Guattari, Rene Girard, Nick Land and the CCRU, Freud, Jung, Wilhelm Reich(SELL: CRYPTO BUY:ORGONE), R.D. Laing, Norman O. Brown and Christopher Lasch, Nietszche, Heidegger, Marx, Mencius Moldbug, Mao and Che on guerrilla warfare the collected writings of the Situationist International, Pierre Clastres, Mircea Eliade, Vico, Joyce and McLuhan, the presocratics, Thomas Pynchon, Ballard, PKD and the Strugatsky Brothers, Wiener, Bateson, Gotthard, Stafford Beer, Pask and von Forrester on cybernetics, Otto Weininger and Andrea Dworkin, Jacob Burckhardt and Jules Michelet, the cinematographic works of hideaki anno, jean luc godard, and million dollar extreme, A.G. Dugin and Eduard Limonov. Listen to Гpaждaнcкaя Oбopoнa and related side projects, edgy neofolk and industrial, Captain Beefheart's Magic Band, Jungle and Ragga dancehall, the works of the second Viennese school, together with those ''soundcloud rappers'' the kids are into nowadays. organise shamanic datura uptake with fellow conservatives. go ahead, post the consumer wojack at me, i think the problem is, he ISN'T excited enough at the accelerationist unliberal possibilities afforded to us by 2018 AD hypercapitalism.

The Conservative Mind

>>11441812
Plato and by-extension Socrates fit into the picture of modern conservatism but are not as easily identifiable in the way that one might say that Aristotle explicitly called for conservatism in the ethics. Plato was less of a prescriptivist than Aristotle, the "point" of the Socratic dialogues was generally to display how genuine, unimpeded philosophic dialectic might look. When it comes down to making a concrete asseveration as to metaphysics, the nature of reality, etc Plato is generally more coy and guarded than Aristotle ever was, as evident in his use of the character Socrates to argue hypotheticals and his frequently resorting to metaphor and analogy to demonstrate his theses. That said, Plato has often been interpreted as a radical or totalitarian because of his *apparently* prescriptivist leanings in the Republic and elsewhere but I tend to see these accusations as missing the point of his writing

>>11441849
is this a copypasta?

>>11441849
I heretofore call on all true conservatives and patriots to unite under the banner of Charles Manson against the emerging California-Beijing Axis Techno Leviathan Surveillance apparatus/ international information conspiracy, otherwise known as THE BEAST. It would be a shame if SOMEONE decided to start kidnapping technical specialists working in [REDACTED]

>>11441849
Hmm...

>>11441652
>>11441714
>>11441726
Kill yourselves

>>11441645
Start with Thomas Paine

>>11441714
Good post

>>11441967
I have, it's just that his thinking is so easy to debunk. Thanks for the recommendation

What about this bad boy?

>>11442005
He writes the easiest introductions like How to Be a Conservative

>>11441995
>his thinking is so easy to debunk

>>11441645
Leftism: Revisted by Kuehnelt-Leddihn

In my opinion, the greatest conservative writer.

>>11441714
>Burke is weird because he really and truly is "conservative," ie he wants things to stay the way they are at his time, without any movement either forward or backward.
>T. Never read Burke

Burke is a progressive, but anti revolutionary. He wants society to evolve naturally and peacefully. But even he admits that in some cases "overthrowing" is necessary, but not Robespierre-type mass murder; or barbarity of any form. A modern example is the entire middle east of the past 8 years, Libya and Gaddafi especially. Violent Revolutions have "never" worked (war of independence wasn't a revolution.).

>>11441777
god bless Chesterton

>>11441645
T.S. Eliot and Ezra Pound. They are two greats who foresaw the demise of Western culture. Especially the former, his work is peerless in the realm of poetry.

As far as modern authors go, there aren't that many who aren't overtly political or in the closet.

>>11441645
Malcolm Muggeridge's Chronicles of Wasted Time

>>11442130
Liberty or Equality is also good by him

>>11442173
>The murder of Gaddafi was necessary

How cucked are you?

>>11441849
I love this, im so glad this weird accelerationist shit happened, I can just say random shit like Moldbug is the greatest communist of all time and nobody even bats an eye now because of how weird shit got

>>11442201
not him but you’re on /lit/, what do you expect?

>>11442173
I think you will find that makes him a conservative

>>11442173
Well I happen to think overthrowing the Stuarts was a mistake, so I take a somewhat dim view of Burke. It seems a little hypocritical of him to laud the overthrow of one monarchy and be horrified at the overthrow of another. Sure, you can say the circumstances in France were different than those in England, but the impulse of the latter is not as far from the former as Burke would like us to think, as I'm sure Johnson would have agreed.

>>11441714
>>11441652


I don’t think conservative and reactionary are one in the same.

Burke isn’t against reform and change, he just wants it to be slow and evolutionary. This is in contrast to people like Paine or Price who have a vision of a just liberal democratic and where happy to see all existing traditions thrown away to achieve it.

Something I’ve come to realize when comparing the constitutional structures of Canada and the US is that adhereing to a Burkeian framework can actually make it easier for a country to move far further to the left over the long run than does a Lockeian constitution model.

In a Burkeian country you can call upon tradition, but you can’t call upon a ‘first thing’, a singular founding event or document, just a gradual accumulation of judicial rulings and deference to precedent, the build-up of arguments why we ought to step this way or that, the fine tuning of institutions etc. But in the lockeian model there is a founding event (a revolution etc) and a founding document (the constitution, Declaration of Independence etc) and thereafter politics will always be beholden to arguements over interpretation and fundamental fidelity to the event. This ends up being an anchor on the neck of the country down the road because it establishes a state of ‘orthodoxy’ which can always be appealled to, it allows for the possibility of ‘fundamentalism’ whereas a Burkeian System is actually floating, relying on the coherence of a tradition without regard to an origin per se.

When you observe Canadian and American politics a huge difference you notice is that Americans politician of all political stances will constantly invoke the will of ‘the founding fathers’ as support for their position. In Canadian politics there is no such appeals, because it’s simply impossible. Canadian consistutional Law is based on an accumulation of numerous steps (The British North American Act, Statute of Westminster, the Canada Act of 1982 etc). While how left leaning Canada is can be exaggerated, it’s not incorrect to say that it sits overall further left than the United States, both in terms of values that people actually hold, but also in terms of legislation.


Another weird consequence is that conservative legal reasoning get deployed to what is perceived as progressive ends in Canadian law. For example, the legal logic of Canadian hate speech legislation is basically conservative. Rather than being strictly about ‘rights’ or whatever, it’s own framed in terms of maintaining ‘good public order’. Disrupting the public peace is what you get hit with if you hand out anti-gay leaflets at Toronto Pride.

>>11442315
Brilliant observation, and so far as i know true. There will always be the need for conservatives to frame the nations vision of itself and the world in strictly conservative terms.
As John O'Sullivans first law says; "All organizations that are not actually right-wing will over time become left-wing."


Regarding free speech in Canada i agree, though i would say the conservatives commitment to prudence would make a conservative defence of propper free speech viable

conservatives are gay desu

>>11442005
Dave Rubin tier.

>>11442315
I have a political theory that basically asserts that positions are neither conservative nor liberal, only the justifications are.

>>11442508
There is no need to be rude my good sir
Dave is a good comedian, but in no way as funny or indeed subtle as Sir Roger

Also the good professor is a serious person

>>11441652
kill yourself
everyone who thinks of burke as 'le epic all-time conservative' should be gassed

>>11441849
absolutely based

Thanks for the recommendations everyone!

Confucius. Spoiler: his great culture hero of the past, Duke of Zhou, conducted human sacrifice. Confucius didn't know this.

Conservative tradition built on idealised image of the past? Well I never..

>>11443708
>Implying human sacrifice is inherently wrong

>>11442315
>Burke isn’t against reform and change, he just wants it to be slow and evolutionary
This idea that Burke was fine with slow, evolutionary, societally approved change, is "columbus was the only one who thought the earth was round"-tier.

>>11443708
There seems to be a something missing from your education sir. Let me remind you that /lit/ is not a substitute for reading. If you did infact read anything recomended in this thread for instance, you would know your post to be a retarded one

>>11441714
The path forward and the path backward are one and the same. - Heraclitus

Just a little ancient wisdom to think about.

>>11441645
Burke & Maistre. It is most correct to study both schools of conservatism.

>>11441645

>>11444693
de Maistre, though interesting, doesn't really lead anywhere. Burke on the other hand is just the begining of the great tradition. But of course, if one is to start somewhere start from the beginning with the largest possible base

>>11444820
Doesn't lead anywhere? Have you ever read anything about French or Catholic conservatism?

>>11441645
Arguable. W. Jackson Bate's biography of Johnson points out that 18th-century Toryism was different from 19th-century and later conservatism in many ways (for example, its repudiation of free market capitalism and of slavery, which we today consider to be "liberal" positions).

>>11444863
No. You're surely right. I am afraid I only know Anglo American conservatism, where de Maistre is briefly mentioned and then dismissed. Which is not of course sufficient background to dismiss him like i did

>>11442189
>Ezra Pound
Fascism is not conservative.

>>11444911
That's what I thought. There's a whole world beyond Tories and Republicans, comrade.

hahaha nigga imagine basing your worldview around trying to stop the inevitable like wtf hahahahaha

>>11444938

>>11444911
>>11444934
Tbf to him the French are kind of their own universe. Im sure had France conquered the world and not Anglo-America we would talk about de Maistre instead of Burke. We can learn a lot from French reaction/conservatism though.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila is good. There's a blog that has translations of all his aphorisms in English:
https://don-colacho.blogspot.com/

I also want to get my hands on a copy of the Obras Completas of Juan Donoso Cortés, but unfortunately I'm an American and foreign language books are hard to come by here.

So far my list includes
>Paine
>Burke
>Maistre
Who am I missing?

>>11441849
I realize I spent too much time on this board since I've read or at least heard of most of those

>>11444959
Chateaubriand

>>11444959
Paine is not a conservative, he's a radical, revolutionary traitor and a generally unpleasant individual that Americans adore for reason

>>11441645
>closeted

>>11442005
He's great. Read his blue trilogy.

>>11444180
fug

>>11444959
Ortega y Gasset

>>11441645
I started here. it's fascinating stuff, and it's common sense that wild and violent revolutions aren't a good thing.
But no one practices this sane conservatism nowadays, the right are just payed lackeys of the multi-billionaire elite.

Conservatives if /lit/ - have you read Moldbug? If so, why are you conservatives rather than 'reactionaries'?

>>11441645
>where can I read things that already agree with me

>>11442196
Yeah, I'm reading that right now; it's very good. There are no physical copies of "Menace of the Herd," but I emailed the Mises Institute and they said they'll be getting more soon (I know of the pdf btw).

>>11445211
Yes. Problem?

>>11442201
>T. can't read
>BUT NOT Robespierre-type mass murder; or barbarity of any form. A modern example is the entire middle east of the past 8 years, Libya and Gaddafi especially.

In the spirit of Burke, Libya and Gaddafi was "Robespierre-type murder" and revolutionary retardation.

>>11442260
I objected to
>he wants things to stay the way they are at his time, without any movement either forward or backward.
Burke's belief was that change was inevitable and sometimes necessary, but a slow methodical procession, not "revolt"; like the word implies: an mindlessly violent revolution (as in a chaotic uprising) only returns to where you were.
>>11442304
The "revolution" of England was more alike the forced rebellion of the US; the rebels didn't start it, the King did. They were rapidly deprived of rights. You could say the "contract" between the king and everyone else was ended by the king; he started the rebellion. Same with US war of independence; the colonies had no desire of secession, but the king "forced their hand".

>>11445452
>>11445499
And that is the difference between traditionalists and conservatives. Practically "cultural stagnation" vs Pragmatic slow cultural evolution.

"Ye" by Kanye West

>>11441714
Buckley was a doofus and his place upon a pedestal as the father of contemporary conservative thought just shows how craven the whole project is. You can't have a genuine intellectual tradition that opposes inquiry.

>>11444954
De Maistre wasn't French.

>>11446219
Murray is great

Read this OP

>>11446290
Will do

>>11445843
pedants get the bullet along with everyone from Savoy

>>11444916
You aren't wrong, but I doubt that most people reading this, perhaps even you, realize why you're right.

>>11445827

>You can't have a genuine intellectual tradition that opposes inquiry.

Go watch pic related. Buckley was one of the few conservative ideologues who was willing to actually engage with the left's arguments.

American Conservatism shat the bed around the time that the religious lunatics took over the ideology from the Goldwaterites.

>>11441714

I've long pondered that "yelling stop" quote myself... My interpretation is that given how many opposition groups (USSR, for instance) believed themselves to be on "the right side of history", he's demonstrating his willingness to be on the "wrong" side, and say that sometimes the way things were had its own merits.

>>11447275
Also that we don't need to go barreling mindlessly into "the future". Conservatives should be willing to move "forward" but cautiously, ready to pump the brakes.

>>11444810

>>11447275
>>11447278
My main objection to these sorts of labels is that people tend to make them into dichotomies. There is a lot of overlap in many schools of thought, especially when considering individual authors. Most traditionalists will recognize that not all traditions are best for every possible situation, and that traditions themselves evolve in a progressive manner. We don't develop unique cultures out of thin air. Individual ideas or positions within context are more appropriately categorized by particular philosophical categories than a person is.

>>11447410

Oh sure, I'm not so foolish as to believe that Buckley or the conservatism he espoused were flawless but I do believe that he was very pro-inquiry, and willing to examine his beliefs/pit them against worthy liberal opponents. The Firing Line and Firing Line Resolved (the debates) seem to me proof enough of that. The man was more than happy to give his opponents a platform.

I consider modern American conservatism to be distinct, and it is absolutely stuck in a dichotomy, opposed to inquiry, and generally shitty. The "ideology" has lost its intellectual pilots (men such as Buckley or Goldwater) and is adrift, letting the currents of reactionary religious idiocy carry it from place to place.

>>11441652
Burke was a damn'd WHIG aka PROGRESSIVE aka LIBERAL

>>11447495
>he doesn't know about JQA and Lincoln and the first Republican Platform

>>11447452
I don't disagree with you at all about the current state of conservatism in the US lacking an intellectual or inquisitive engagement, but I also see it as a small blip. I also tend to blame much of the state of it on the desire for absolutes. I see the same thing in progressive-ism, too. There is very little in the way of discussion and inquiry in modern politics. It isn't about the application of ideas as much as it is about the ability to affect an outcome. That has been a long time in development, and I do not think the US is very unique, nor a leader in that regard. How many leaders of other nations are known for their accomplishments in and contributions to intellectual endeavors, and how many of those write well and prolifically about their endeavors? I could be entirely wrong about it being a blip. Maybe our modes of communication and consumption are on an inevitable and persistent tangent, but how would you explain the resurgences with individual figures like Buckley or Goldwater if that were the case? And, again, I can't agree that it is majorly a reactionary religious thing, though the state of religion in modern philosophical context is in a similar boat, the same boat when putting it in a political context.

>>11445124
Moldbug is hilarious and a damn persuasive writer. I highly recommend him as an introduction to "conservative" (a.k.a. not mainline Progressive ultra-Protestant) thought. Really sparks the synapses.

>>11447505
What nonsense are you preparing to spout?

>>11447495
>>11447512

Therein lies a major intractability-- associating progress with liberalism and with socialism.
Progress is just change. If you're changing something back into a previous form, that too is progress.
Conservation implies judiciousness, it is economy of motion if you will, not the absence of motion.
In fact, in order to conserve a form of social organization one MUST constantly adjust to the ever changing reality of existence.
If one insists on uncontrolled experimentation, then one is liberal. If one wishes to move with a specific intent in mind, along time-tested patterns of sustainability, then you are a conservative.

>>11447537
>Progress is just change. If you're changing something back into a previous form, that too is progress.
You are literally wrong. Progress is change in a forward motion toward a fixed goal. Thus, "Whig history" or Hegelianism/Marxism. It you change something back into a previous form, that is called "regress" — the antonym of progress.

>>11447563
Nothing in existence is capable of returning to a previous state, we can go forward following a form that resembles a previous form, but it is always a similarity and not a 1:1 copy

Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, Roger Scruton, Edmund Burke, Thomas Sowell, P. J. O'Rourke, Mário Ferreira dos Santos, Ludwig von Mises, Michael Oakeshott, Willmoore Kendall, Eric Voegelin, Nikolai Berdyaev, Richard M. Weaver, George Grant, Vladimir Nabokov, Lew Rockwell, Alain Peyrefitte, Václav Havel, Alexis de Tocqueville, Vladimir Solovyov, Olavo de Carvalho, Roger Kimball, Xavier Zubiri, Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy, Constantin Noica, Lucian Blaga, T. S. Eliot, Ayn Rand, Franz Rosenzweig, William F. Buckley Jr., G. K. Chesterton, Malcolm Muggeridge, Louis Lavelle, H. L. Mencken, , Paul Johnson, Russell Kirk, Miguel Reale, René Girard, Mortimer J. Adler, Marshall McLuhan, C. S. Lewis, Bernard Lonergan, Frédéric Bastiat, Jorge Luis Borges, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Orlando Figes, Gertrude Himmelfarb, Benedetto Croce, Viktor Frankl, Judith Reisman, Vilém Flusser, Hossein Nasr, George Santayana, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Bertrand de Jouvenel, José Ortega y Gasset, Jesús Huerta de Soto, Andrzej Łobaczewski, Leo Strauss, Mircea Eliade, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Carl Schmitt, Thomas Woods, Carl Menger, Jean-Baptiste Say, Nicolás Gómez Dávila, David Horowitz, Murray Rothbard, Peter Hitchens, Henry Hazlitt, Vladimir Bukovsky, René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon, Friedrich Hayek, Mario Vargas Llosa, Vladimir Tismăneanu, Irving Babbitt, Charles E. Lindblom, Irving Kristol, Daniel Bell, Robert Michels, Mikhail Sholokhov, Gaetano Mosca, David Hume, Adam Smith, José Guilherme Merquior, Isaiah Berlin, Arnold Toynbee, Johan Huizinga, Christopher Dawson, Modris Ekstein, John Lukacs, Jacques Barzun, Niall Ferguson, Bernard Lewis, David Stove, Theodore Dalrymple, Leopold von Ranke, François de Chateaubriand, Robert Nisbet, John Henry Newman, Werner Sombart, F. W. Maitland, Raymond Aron, Karl Popper, Julien Benda, Leszek Kołakowski, Alexander Solzhenítsyn, Arthur Koestler, Joseph de Maistre, Rivarol, Pat Buchanan, Samuel P. Huntington, Konstantin Leontiev, Vilfredo Pareto, Edmund Husserl, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Martin Heidegger, Giuliano Gentile, Willard Van Orman Quine, François Mauriac, Robert Brasillach, Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, François Furet, Czesław Miłosz, Hillaire Belloc, Henri Massis, Ivan Ilyin, Edgar Julius Jung, Juan Vázquez de Mella, Juan Donoso Cortés, Masahiro Morioka, Ananda Coomaraswamy, Jacob Burckhardt, Christopher Lasch, Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, Richard Pipes, Hans Trevor Roper, Petre Țuțea, Paul Gottfried, T. E. Hulme, Ernst Jünger, John Kekes, Arnold Lunn, Alasdair MacIntyre, Gabriel Marcel, Julio Meinvielle, E. F. Schumacher, Igor Shafarevich, Karl Ludwig von Haller, Evelyn Waugh, Thomas Fleming, Karl Jaspers, Jean-François Revel, Philip Rieff, Oswald Spengler, Gustav Le Bon, Peter Kreeft, Alain de Benoist, Víctor Pradera, Francisco Elías de Tejada y Spínola, Jaime Guzmán...

>>11447752
>Tfw you know basically all of these.

>>11447752
>frankl
>campbell
>mcluhan
>not distinguishing between young and old/bitter llosa

lol

>>11447752
Any list of thinkers that includes Buckley Jr. and von Mises among them practically guarantees it's full of shitty thinking

>>11448285

>>11448290
yeah, this is what the people who like Buckley Jr. and von Mises look like

>>11448333
That's a list of conservative thinkers, and both Buckley and Mises are well-known conservative thinkers whether you like it or not.

I believe Noam Chomsky is a rhetorical juggler, a liar and a fraud, but I would never say his name doesn't deserve to be in a list of left-wing thinkers.

>>11448333
Nah. That is what you are being right now bucko. ;)

>>11448395
knew it was the same cringe-inducing dip shit posting that image in defense of the insufferably bitchy buckley jr (lmao) and defending sissy baby boy hitler in another thread

>>11448448
>Everyone who posts the same image is the same person
>Everyone who defends someone I disagree with is the same person

B O W D E N !
O
W
D
E
N
!

>>11445211
>where can I read things that better enunciate views I hold but can't quite explain

Fixed.

bump

>>11447563

>It you change something back into a previous form, that is called "regress" — the antonym of progress.

I disagree. If the previous form was better suited to your goal, then it must be progress, by your initial definition.

For example, if you once had the legal right to keep and bear arms, then that freedom was reduced by others, and then you're able to recover those rights, is that regress, because you're back to step 1? Or was step 2 the regressive one, because it moved you away from your goal?

As>>11447537 said, change is change and not necessarily "progress". Since most ideas are not new, a wise conservative should look to the past to inform the future.

>>11447752
Nice to see Olavo here

>>11448543
Not quite, this thread is about exploring the thinkers behind a great tradition of political philosophy. So it's about finding new shit one doesn't know already, you know, expanding ones mind

>>11444810
this but unironically

>>11444810
the libs do believe that

>>11441714
If Buckley was so smart
He wouldn’t have made those creepy bug eyes at people who were beating him in debate.

Think about that, conservatives.

>>11441645
Burke and Maistre are really the ones you should start with

What people forget about Burke is that he wasn't just conservative, he was also a Christian, and a Whig.

Conservatism is an attitude, an approach. It has no ideological content, which is why it is impotent by itself.

>>11441714
>>11442315

Two very good posts.

>mfw this thread is full of fucking liberals recommending each other liberal dreckmongers (both in the leftypol and reactionary sense)

Y I K E S

>>11449137
>Whig
Dropped.

>>11449169
And what are you? Some Tory faggot?

>>11449173
High tory i think you'll find

>>11449165
Then what do you recommend oh wise one?

>>11448284
>thinking McLuhan wasn't a conservative
nu/lit/ get out

>>11448264
think I knew about 70%, now I have even more reading to do

>>11447752
Curtis Yarvin
Nick Land

>>11450355
Good luck. We should all have a reading thread or at least a general thread for discussion sometime.

Aristotle

Bump

My diary, desu.

>>11450364
(((Moldberg)))

>>11447752
here I am reading nothing, wasting

>>11450355
>>11447752
a third of these have nothing written in English, except their wikipedia page, or small parts of larger works

>>11442508
top kek, laughed out loud

>>11452035
Which is probably why you should learn at least one romance language (French is the most mainstream one, I suppose). You can't really understand politics if you don't know the politics of other countries, just like you can't learn whether you are ugly or beautiful unless you compare your face to those of other people.

The list was compiled by a Brazilian.

>>11444911
de Maistre and Bonald and some other french righties I haven't read because they haven't been translated basically founded Sociology as a field.

>>11452132
The list contains Ayn Rand and is therefore null and void

>>11452362
This comment contains Ayn Rand and is therefore null and void.

>>11452132
there were barely any french or German there (untranslated)

>>11452378
>>11452362
The human race contains Ayn Rand and is therefore null and void.

>>11452428
Good god

Donald Trump

>>11441645
What's your opinion on the esoteric hitlerist doctrine of Savitri Devi and Miguel Serrano?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UiqTNCnFv8&bpctr=1531453746

would you consider Charles Manson a conservative figure?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-P2aXAOBW4

>>11441714
>using the ideas of "forwards" and "backwards" in relation to politics
DROPPED

only literal brainlets would do this

>>11452362
She is a good writer and a mediocre philosopher

>>11441714
Hopefully Boris gives Mogg a ministerial position.

>>11441645
Fascism is the way to go, it has all the benefits of conservatism and reactionaries without the "lets live in mudhuts forever"

>>11453473
Based.

Schmitt. But apparently mods don't like seeing threads about him.

>>11453544
He was a fascist.

>>11453548
Your point sweetie?

>>11453552
>asks for conservative literature
>fag gives you fascist literature

Are you retarded?

>>11450090
High Toryism is literally faggotry. Basically all18th century high tories were either gay or atheist/ usually both.

They professed their elitism because it meant they got to keep they gay ass culture, which the lower masses didn't approve of.

>>11453867
No, but he was pretty conservative moron.

>>11453867
He was right so you should all read him regardless

>>11441645
God I wish that were me.

i went full conservative, i mean i still larp as a leftist at work so i dont get fired, but i mean when i was watching that fbi fag getting grilled the other day whenever the next guy is from red state like south carolina or something im like fuck yeah here we go! when like ten years ago i would have considered some southern state repub a total scum, now the democrats are the total scum

>>11456280
The guy grilling those worms is named Trey Gowdy, in case you were wondering.

>>11456304
Not him but yeah Gowdy is pretty based.

>>11456280
Congrats brother!

>>11456280
you sound 12

>>11456280
it's all about reality tv for you people. it's not collusion, it's stigmetic coordination. Trump is an insurrectionary actor. World War III is a guerrilla information war with no distinction between civilian and military participation. despite all my cynicism regarding the left and liberal culture, when the shit really goes down, i'll be with the people. it's about accelerating all possible pathways of insurgency and undermining all established structures of power. Poetry must be made by all and not by one.

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/07/stigmergic_syst.html

Peter Hitchen's essays/articles.
10/10 writing.
His books are superfluous.

>>11457467
Nice take.

>>11456996
to see why the left is hopeless just check out that article today in the nytimes about the liberals new organization for using tech, some bullshit crap called "tech for campaigns" or some other idiotic name, the whole article is really just an article about some female venture capitalist, and how she's going to save democrats by getting techbros (who the nytimes attacks as sexist racist pigs in literally every article besides this one) to volunteer for free to do "something" but when you go to her orgs website its just a form to sign up for fundraising spam im just lollin like dems aint gonna make it man, even when they make an attempt to "get with it" it just ends up being a big circle jerk for some silicon valley dickhead

>>11456996

hey buddy do u like how the establishment dems used a ny state dirty trick to get boomer loser crowley back on the ballot for the fall despite being completely destroyed by occasio-cortz in the primary? did u like that? did u like the democrat party machine hacks undermined the only liberal anyone is excited about? i would have thought u learned your lesson about rigging elections after 2016, but nope, can't even go two years with out doing it again! democrats are pure scum.

>>11457715
based

bump

>>11457726
I love how people are memeing this.

>>11441652
>>11441657
Ironically this.

Bump

>>11441645
I've always been drawn to conservatism but whenever I try to read the esteemed conservative writers I'm invariably put off by their inability or unwillingness to think dialectically. It always leads them to false conclusions.

>>11441654
Cringe

>>11441714
What on earth is this post on about? Conservatism isn't just some "don't be hasty" movement, it has specific principles depending on the context it is in.

For example, do you not think that Western conservatives would become revolutionaries if they suddenly found themselves in a state-enforced atheistic communist state?

>>11460738
This

>>11444810

>>11460897
"This" posters need to be removed.
This isn't reddit, no one cares about your upvotes you fucking faggot.

>>11461444
*Upvotes this comment*

>>11441645
Obviously you want to start with an opposing point, so Pedagogy of the Oppressed is the obvious answer.

>>11460738
Conservatives won't become revolutionaries. In that context, the state is the revolutionary agent, such as the USSR, NS Germany, the 1st French Republic, etc.

>>11444959
Georges sorel. French communist that turned to fascist unionist over the years. Incorporated art and how Jews or more particularly the decadent are anti-artists and corrupt nature and life.

>>11461444
this

>>11462338
>>11462338
this

>>11442535
A great man once said, "All the worst writing is sincere." And Roger is very, very sincere.

>>11461444
mmm yes i concur

>>11441645
PLEASUREMAN is unironically the best place to start for contemporary conservatism and sociological analysis, reading the writings of dead guys who have been out of the loop for hundreds of years isn't going to help. So stop by MPCdot.com and read a little.

>>11460738
That's why people such as William F. Buckley and the American "conservative" establishment are impotent. They have been yelling "stop!" (the exclamation is ironic; there really ought to be a punctuation to express the inaudible) for half a century and they are continuing to get steamrolled, hence their disastrous loss to Donald Trump, as people realized they [the conservative establishment] are nothing but donor class whores, ushering in an age of corporate control. Nothing has been conserved under their influence, and certainly nothing that was ever lost was rewon. Hence the liberal reaction to Trump, a man who is essentially an überpatriotic 90s Democrat decided to roll back the clock to the 80s and they've never experienced such losses before.

>>11462120
Hahaha that's retarded

>>11463455
This.

>>11460014
Well start the literary movement known as 'dialectical conservatism' then.

>>11441777
who's this Chesterton, sound like my kind of guy

>>11452428
it all makes sense now

>>11461444
Indeed.

>>11463920
Books for this?

Plato? What the fuck are some of you smoking? His ideas were extremely radical for his time; how in the fuck is he conservative? Even by today's standards he isn't exactly conservative.

>>11463920
I sometimes daydream about doing just that.

>>11464219
Well then stop daydreaming.

>>11464219
>>11464244
Or at least write the content of the dreams. Even so are you sure it's not Hegelianism as seen from the right? Or even just Hegel minus all the marxist scholarship on the guy?

>>11464251
this

>>11464251
That's what it'd look like.

Paleoconservativism will be to this decade and the next what Marxism was for the 60's and 70's.

>>11465137
Big if true.

>>11463920
>>11465137
Based and redpilled

>>11441645
i'll tell you what i'm doing myself. first, i'm learning latin, and after that i plan to learn just a bare amount of ancient greek, because I have a STEM career and only do this in my spare time. i am open to suggestions on what else from plato and aristotle to read apart from the entire works (for now).

current reading:
- after virtue
- wheelock's latin
- the bible

planning on reading these:
- the republic
- nichomachean ethics
- meditations by marcus aurelius
- consolation by boethius
- confessions & the city of god
- selected writings of aquinas

fiction: shakespeare, lord of the rings, and the divine comedy

>>11465968
Suggestion. Get out of the STEM hell.

>>11466000
My girlfriend wants 7 kids when we get married. I'm not going to be able to support them without the STEM shekels

>>11465968
>starting with the greeks
good lad

>>11466007
Then be prepared to suffer burnout and die early anon. Your relationship will suffer as well bugman.

>>11466025
i'm not going to silicon valley, i'm going to be working in the research triangle. comfy place

>>11466037
Whatever you say bugman.

>>11465137
honestly I'm not conservative (any more) but paleoconservatism is about the only kind of coservatism that makes sense to me and I respect it more than most kinds
instead of playing up some overly specific and ultimately largely arbitrary time in the past, or some vague notion of tradition, you're looking to humans in their element, as they are naturally, where we originally came from
I think that would put a damper on a lot of important things, but I can totally understand the thought process and the appeal, and I think a little bit of it would do us some good

>>11463456
You are retarded

>>11441645
In addition to Burke & Maistre, you should read the Bible, of course.

>>11441645
Read this debate between Olavo de Carvalho and Alexander Dugin to vaccine yourself against the eurasianist ideology.

http://debateolavodugin.blogspot.com/

>>11466007
>tfw no gf that wants to save the white race with me
how did you do it?

>>11466405
>Olavo de Carvalho
Someone here should make an introduction and a chart for how to get into him since I see him being mentioned a lot around here lately.

>>11466502
Alas, few of his work were translated.

>>11441645
there are no conservatives on 4chan, there are leftists and larping reactionaries

>>11466485
>implying we're white
she's 1% north african and i'm 2% italian

as to how, online

>>11466583
>she's 1% north african and i'm 2% italian
>We are planning on having 7 kids together

>>11466572

>>11466605
based child's drawing poster

>>11466633
Thanks anon, I try my hardest.

Bump

>>11466569
Which ones? Yeah I saw very little, in spite of his massive output. Maybe once he dies or something there will be an increased interest.

>>11466485
I hate this feel.

Interesting thread guys.

Rodger Scruton eats my croutons!

I love seeing both this and a Conservative general taking shape.

>>11465137
Acid Lasch-Bateson-Land dialectic synthesis is the future. Metacalifornian Paleocon Marxism now!

>>11470899
Unironically this.

>>11471187
reactionary high modernism
UHF insurgency
geodesic dome cutists
...and other designations frequently abusive or terroristic in nature

>''we are as gods and we might as well get used to it''

>>11471308

>>11470899
>>11471308
Can we get a reading list going for this? Maybe a general eventually?

What are the thoughts here about other communitarians besides MacIntyre?

Jacques Barzun

>>11460738
>do you not think that Western conservatives would become revolutionaries if they suddenly found themselves in a state-enforced atheistic communist state?
No, they would produce thinkpieces such as "The conservative case for State atheism", and "Was Marx actually a conservative? The case for Communism."

>>11449078
Great Olavo!

>>11441645
Carl Schmitt

>>11463455
Buckely is not a true "American Conservative". Pat Buchanan is an example of that. And right now we're growing closer with paleolibertarians. Shit's pulling together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedkBm3Ud3Q

Bump

>>11472885
Haha, you sound like Paul Gottfried expressing his irritation with Buckley conservatism

>>11441645
The real question is, what is the best literature for debunking conservatist crap.

>>11473624
>Look comrades at /leftypol/ I posted it again!

>>11441880
I'm an absolute amateur in these things but from what I've gleaned over this seems like a very solid summary

>>11473647
I am not from there, are you from /pol/?

>>11473647
>look /pol/ i bashed the libtards on The 4Chan again! #boomers4lyfe
This is you. This is how you sound.

Burke is the logical starting point. In many ways, Burke is the most complex political thinker since Aristotle and Plato. We classify Burke today as conservative and that’s mostly because he tended to view society and, more specifically, culture, as an organic result of distinct geographical, religious, and political traditions. Burke is radical in the sense that he views tradition as the core underlying societal link joining a people together over generations. For Burke, the question isn’t how can we make society better but rather how best should a stable society be maintained. Burke views tradition as the eschatological link between generations, and he places the burden of sustaining the traditions which have produced stable cultures on the man of the present. Chesterton called it the democracy of the dead, but Burke went beyond simply the past. For Burke, the man of the present is not only an inheritor of his forefathers wisdom, but a guardian of the traditions which kept a nation alive for future generations. This is known as the Burkiean contract—the past present man has made not only with those who came before him but also those who will come after him.

Burke isn’t resistant to change, he just views change as something which should be an organic process dictated by the collective wisdom of all who came before. Burke most likely wouldn’t be opposed to something like gay marriage, as it is an issue which has taken generations to become accepted. What he would be against is athe state to ram it down everyone’s throat prior to the wider society being non-accepting of it. For Burke, progress must be organic and self-inflicted, and always with the will of the majority of the cultural populace, as major shifts in societal mores cause division and hasten revolution, which he hated. Burke would have sided with the Confederate states, if only for the fact that he would view slavery as an issue which would be phased out at a cultures own pace, thereby enacting change without violent revolution and a total collapse of the core driving force of a society.

>>11473771
>Burke most likely wouldn’t be opposed to something like gay marriage
You don't know what you're talking about

>>11470753

>>11473771
>always with the will of the majority of the cultural populace
Also Burke critiqued the shit out of majority will in his "An Appeal from the New to the Old Whigs", which was a rebuttal to Paine's "The Rights of Man" (which in turn was a rebuttal to Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France")

Burke was strongly opposed to democracy. He only was cool with parliament because less than 1% of men had the property qualifications to vote

>>11473771
>Burke would have sided with the Confederate states, if only for the fact that he would view slavery as an issue which would be phased out at a cultures own pace

This also, by the way, is extremely questionable and unlikely, and I say that as a Confederate sympathizer and a Burkean. Burke would very likely have seen the South as starting the Civil War, he would not have seen it as an aggressive war by the North to abolish slavery (which it absolutely wasn't; Lincoln opposed slavery, but he mainly wanted to stop it in new territories, he promised the South he would not force abolition on them and war would not come unless they fired the first shot).

What about the traditionalists?

>>11474199
>>11461807

>>11474215
More interested in them in relation to conservative thought. That thread was a Muslim circle jerking in part.

>>11474221
One is political, the other isn't. And trads tend to shit on conservatives, while I have never heard a conservative say anything about trads.

Bump

>>11474849
Thanks.

Nee cheese

>>11474229
Would be interesting though.

>>11456280
lol at these people who still think that democrats = leftists

Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis

>>11441645
God I wish that were me.

The Decline of the West - Oswald Spengler

>>11477000
What's stopping you anon? ;)

>>11444959
Thomas Sowell?

>>11478829
Go to bed Uncle Tom.

Bump

Not a very good tradition if it can't last until the post limit...

http://freenortherner.com/dark-enlightenment-reading-list/

>>11441714
Hey hey hey 18th century Buckleyites were preddy gay.

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/d/defoe/daniel/d31sh/


>every single thing in this "ironic" pamphlet happened.

>>11441880
To Plato's credit, if he had tried to be more "Aristotelian" and/or expressed overt support for oligarchy, he, like Socrates before him and Aristotle after him, would have probably been condemned to death by Athens as well.

>>11443708
>implying that there are not multitudes of people sacrificed right fucking meow

Thank you for your service, we hope to serve you again.

In chronological order:

Plato
Burke
Kant
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Burke
De Maistre
Heinrich Heine
Stendhal
Sorel
Guenon
Nitsche
Ezra Pound
TS Eliot
Giovanni Gentile
Hitler
Evola
Steve Bannon
Jordan Peterson

>>11481334
ONE OF THEESE IS NOT LIKE HSEBOTHEES

>>11441645
1.- donald trump twitter
2.- breitbart
3.- metapedia
4.- the kjv bible
5.- fox news
6.- jordan peterson and david duke books
7.- milo and richard spencer youtube channels

>>11481571
He was asking about intellectual conservatism, not retard American Republicanism

>>11441645
For me it's Horace. The saltiest Roman.

>>11441714
Reactionary is the new slang for being a white overweight bitter schizo incel

>>11481588
ok triggered snowflake liberal KEK!!! XD

>>11447537
Why are American conservatives destroying the environment and bringing out environmental collapse, then? Are they just retarded? If so, how is one to differentiate intelligent conservatism from the idiot Republican conservatism that is colloquially known as "conservative?"

>>11463960
GK Chesterton, renowned Catholic theologian and writer and editor and philosopher and speaker and teacher from the early 20th century

>>11481588
Based mods are doing good lately.

>>11466583
Madre de Dios...

>>11466583
Le 1.5% face

>>11483386
Based

you guys could all kill yourselves and the world would immediately become a better place

>>11483673
*snap*

>>11441645
The Stars Go Over The Lonely Ocean by Robinson Jeffers

Unhappy about some far off things
That are not my affair, wandering
Along the coast and up the lean ridges,
I saw in the evening
The stars go over the lonely ocean,
And a black-maned wild boar
Plowing with his snout on Mal Paso Mountain.

The old monster snuffled, "Here are sweet roots,
Fat grubs, slick beetles and sprouted acorns.
The best nation in Europe has fallen,
And that is Finland,
But the stars go over the lonely ocean,"
The old black-bristled boar,
Tearing the sod on Mal Paso Mountain.

"The world's in a bad way, my man,
And bound to be worse before it mends;
Better lie up in the mountain here
Four or five centuries,
While the stars go over the lonely ocean,"
Said the old father of wild pigs,
Plowing the fallow on Mal Paso Mountain.

"Keep clear of the dupes that talk democracy
And the dogs that talk revolution,
Drunk with talk, liars and believers.
I believe in my tusks.
Long live freedom and damn the ideologies,"
Said the gamey black-maned boar
Tusking the turf on Mal Paso Mountain.

Does anyone know about this or what's even in it?

>>11483678
use your trip

>>11441645
Foucault is a good start

>>11483926
I've never had one. I'm afraid I don't know who you think I am.

>>11483673
So you can post shit like this on here but not criticise such a comment? This is evidenced by >>11483926 showing a missing comment.

I'm a liberal but I love reading Burke, his works are out of this world.

>>11484656
Respectable. Welcome to the thread, come and stay a while, post and interact with us all.

>>11482078
Stop being a stupid simpleton who browses FB all day anon. What does the environment have to do with conservatives in the first place?

Bump

>>11482078
Green Conservatives/Conservatism

My diary, desu.

>>11441849
PKD?

Is that to be read as Philip K Dick?

>>11487699
I'm also intrigued by this.

>>11487699
>>11488015
That's a pretty typical abbreviation for Philip K. Dick, so I had assumed that's what had been meant.

>>11488399
I don't know how I feel about PKD being considered conservative.

>>11488958
why? he was a good christian boy

>>11441714
Buckley succeeded. His conservative movement culminated in the re-consolidation of American landholders/management around libertarian/economic interest rather than old bloodlines, who proceeded to reverse fiscal and monetary policy, break the backs of the unions, and begin the long process of rolling back the New Deal (which is currently being accelerated under Trump).

Far from pathetic, he's the first Conservative to truly succeed. While he may seem to have failed to restrain cultural change, the truth is that the conservative culture he championed has been preserved among much of that economic interest group which formed the larger part of his efforts.

As the state wanes, the secular rejection of religion will shrink back to it's previous place among chiefly intellectuals and the powerful. Chances are, we'll see a resurgence of old religious feeling as the state-derived culture collapses inward. And it's not insignificant that Conservatives are having more children on average than Liberals.

>>11488958
>>11488963
Big if true.

>>11489042
Based boomer Buckley bro.

>>11489042
This is also big if true.

Bump

>>11490147
Morning.

What happened to the conservative general we had?

I haven't read this thread yet, is it worth reading?

>>11491486
Yes this thread is worth reading. It is sort of trailing off now but started strong. The conservative general died. I'm hoping someone starts a 2nd one soon. If you are out there conservative general guy or anyone else, let's go at it again.

>>11441645
im not closeted though. i wear a MAGA hat in public

Buying some books soon, based on this thread, what should I get anons?

>>11492266
Burke and Maistre are foundational figures for the two sides of the English Channel.

>>11492419
Thanks, anything else? Where to begin with Burke and Maistre though? I could start with their first books and if I like them read more I guess. Any modern recs? This goes for anyone really.

If anyone else is still checking this, someone needs to start a new Conservative general and a new Conservative /lit/ general both.