/lit/ - Literature

>>11438638
There are other ways you can meet god.

St Thomas Aquinas can do the trick

if only there were christian philosophers that attempted to solve these issues

>wanting to believe in something just because other people do it
Don't do it, OP. Stand by what you know to be true, instead of being manipulated by others.

Be responsible for purporting your own meaning. If all reading has done for you is destroy your beliefs, then you’ve failed.

>>11438638
Easy. Read the bible as a mythos of ancient wisdom. It's really not a bad read when you have some interpretive acuity.

>>11438655
The things I believe don't matter to me anyways. If there is no transcendant reality capable of ledgering and valuing my deeds, then there is only my own valuation and those of others. Truth seems noble for a time. But if the truth has nothing to console me, I would do anything to believe what they believe.

>>11438799
>The things I believe don't matter to me anyways
Maybe that's the crux of the issue.

>>11438799
>I would do anything to believe what they believe.

If they are really your friends, it shouldn't matter what you believe. If you cannot find God, then maybe just try and enjoy the warm embrace of their company.

>>11438638
It's simple really, they think about the consequence of the opposite route which is your current dilemma of emptiness and decide to go the God route despite everything.

>>11438834
They are my friends, but I want to be able to be just like them without feeling like a fraud. Also I won't like there is something aesthetically appealing about living forever with my oneitis.

>>11439037
You can't force a believe in God. Maybe if you relax, and look inward deeply enough it will come.

And why do you feel like a fraud? Please don't try and force yourself into their belief system, it sounds like it just might you even more miserable, if your heart isn't fully invested in it. You perhaps need to find your own way, find your own meaning.

I'm not a Christian anymore, but every time I read the New Testament I almost cry and on a couple occasions I actually have.

>>11438638
One step at a time. The eternal peace and given grace by God in your everyday life is more important.

>>11439086
This is the problem - I haven't been able to find any philosophical grounds for Christianity. Functional, like Peterson, yes, but that's just the ritual without its essence. I am worried Nietzsche's crude materialism may be correct. I don't know how I can ever feasibly solve all of this stuff on my own.

>>11439135
Well, I'm not a Christian so I can't really help you there, sorry.

>I don't know how I can ever feasibly solve all of this stuff on my own.

Have you asked your friends to help you?

>>11439101

I'm sorry that your brain was raped and that you continue to be victimized by this cultural rape.

>>11438638
>>11438644
>>11438647
>>11439106

The above comment goes equally for the apologists ITT. Happily, for my part, I have never felt an overpowering need to belong (being an only child helps here), which is a major element in all this.. Least of all to some church, in order to feel good about myself (though even I can appreciate the appeal of group-belonging). If I had the power to pluck out the will-to-religion in the human mind and eliminate it forever, even and especially knowing that the traditional god were real, I would do so without a moment's hesitation. I understand that magnets, used carefully, can effect such a result, and cause all such brains to naturally behave correctly (that is, like mine).

I think I'll invest in magnets.

>>11438638
With faith

>>11439152
>t.

>>tfw the more things you read, the less reasonable it seems to believe in absolutely anything
Read Kant, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, and study physics/math then Christianity will be much more appealing.

>>11438638
Church-going Christians are happy and lucky and blessed because they have a supportive community with worldwide political clout and are told from day one that they will have eternal life and that the world's problems aren't important and are just temporary illusions.

They're able to ignore how shitty the world is, focus on a small digestible community of peers who live near them, and still be able to make the world a better place through small, unpretentious actions such as charity donations. Anything fishy going on with their religion (hundreds of interpretations, theological debate, fundamentalist extremists, etc. etc. etc.) is easy to hand wave.

They are bound to be more happier than the atheist not because Jesus rose from the dead necessarily, but because they have worldwide political power and favorable material circumstances. In places where Christians are oppressed, Christians are miserable but still have the promise of eternal life. They literally can't lose ideologically because the point of winning isn't having the correct answers but simply staying satisfied with your short miserable existence. If that means lying to yourself or believing things which seem absurd to the Atheist then so be it.

People who turn back to Christianity after years of not believing for a sense of belonging are weak. Find friends that are passionate in their skills and creative endeavors instead of some false sense of security from Churchgoers.

>>11439164
muhdora

>>11438638
>How do people even manage to reconcile Christianity with contemporary skepticism, monism, materialism, the mind-body problem?

Why does that matter so much? The logical part of me knows that the evidence for a Christian God isn't necessarily there, but I also know that 1.) There's a lot about the origin of the world and the universe we have no clue about, and 2.) My personal believe or non-belief in a god doesn't really affect anyone else, so it doesn't matter if it's illogical or not.

>>11439135
>I haven't been able to find any philosophical grounds for Christianity

Solipsism and an Antiscience posture I bet it's a good start

>>11438638
God is beyond human knowledge. Human knowledge, in principle, cannot know God nor refute Him. It's all just word-games. There's a passage in John where people ask Jesus what he's all about, and Jesus simply replies "Come and see," something that I assume your Christian friends have also told you. When I first started to think long and hard about existential questions and Christianity (my birth religion), I realised that I couldn't reconcile it in my mind, and since then I've realised that this is because human knowledge alone is simply incapable of doing so. In other words, I realised that I could not decide the truth of Christianity without actually giving it a try, so I did just that--just over a year ago and I haven't looked back. I'll admit, it's been damn hard, but it's better than walking in circles, which is what materialist life is basically (at least for me it was). My local church is quite good, and luckily I happened to go to a Catholic university, so the church community there is quite intellectual and orthodox (not the deus vult trad or nothing bullshit you see the pol-tier pseudo-christians tout, but just a really holy novus ordo).

So tldr: the only way you'll ever know the truth of Christianity is by giving it a try, so go to church with your friends, I'm sure they'll be more than happy to show you the way. Best of luck my friend, I hope you find what you're looking for.

>>11439221
Any recommended reading, other than the Bible?

>>11439230
Mere Christianity is the obvious one. Just gives a really nice, cosy intro to the faith. Imitation of Christ is also a good follow-up to that.

>>11439240
>>11439230
Also adding to my response, there are some great online resources, like Bishop Barron's channel and another one called Ascension Presents. Both are Catholic though, so if you aren't Catholic I'm sure someone here can point you to the Prot equivalent

>>11438638
>tfw the more things you read, the less reasonable it seems to believe in absolutely anything
haha but you believe the books you read

>>11439243
Do NOT follow Steve Anderson though. He's batcarp mad.

>>11439221
So, have you actually developed faith, or do go to a local church just to hang out with cool people?

>>11439254
I have developed an actual faith (its constantly getting stronger), and I apart from a few Christian friends at uni, my faith is actually quite lonely. I just find the youth group at my local church quite cringey and annoying, and most of my family is atheist. And even with the few Christians I know, I do sometimes feel at odds with them. I'm not sure why. I think I just have a loner sort of personality.

>>11439263
Well, faith always was a solitary road.

>used to consider myself Christian
>lost faith as a teenager
>now becoming interested in Christianity again

What do? I went to the church my family goes to for my dad's wedding the other day, and I was instantly put off by the sprawling architecture and multiple cafes that they had. Plus, I don't really like the idea of going to the same church as my family because we don't really get along. What should I do?

>>11439273
What is even the point of going into a church?
Churches (I mean architectual structures) were designed to enlighten the common folk. It's for sunday christians, if you get what I'm saying.
To follow Christ you don't even have to be baptized or to participate in a local community.
>Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
>Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
>But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
>God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

>>11439285
>To follow Christ you don't even have to be baptized or to participate in a local community.
what kind of idiot heresy is this

>>11439244
That's too real t.b.h.

But you know what I mean. You think you're certain of something and then someone pulls that out from under you. If all that I can be certain of is that there is something rather than nothing, what use is that?

>>11439286
Read Calvin and Zwingli.

>>11439286
Baptizing is only a symbol. If you believe in symbols instead of believing in God Himself, well, you're condemned either way. No matter how often you pay visits to your local church you are not one step closer to salvation.

>>11439292
>Read Calvin and Zwingli.
what kind of idiot heresy is this

>>11439298
Biblical Christianity.

>>11439285
So you're saying I should just read the bible and try to find faith within myself?

>>11439296
What if you're just an idiot, and you never get any more of a chance? Surely God doesn't go around damning every idiot for failing to comprehend him.

>>11439309
Read Calvin.

>>11439290
Faith is faith in things incorporeal. You cannot have faith in things that exist empirically around you for they exist without your effort or presence. Faith is an effort to grasp for things that exist only in mind and spirit.
To speak plainly, we give life to certain things in our everyday lives just by a sole effort of having a faith in them. We have a faith in traffic laws, and traffic laws only exist because we believe in them. It's a hideous example for understanding Faith, but the structure is somewhat similar.
If you don't believe in God and universal thruth, then there is no God and universal thruth. There are no guarantees, you just have to brave it.

>>11439302
Faith is a solitary effort. No one can have faith in your stead.
>>11439309
Of course, your interpretation of God is better than mine. Time for a Holy Crusade, amirite? There is no chance that someone could have a valid viewpoint on such things except for you.
Listen, I'm not saying that churches are trash. Ecclesial is a manifestation of Christian community, a body of Christ. But as Jesus said, you have to worship in spirit, not in the body.

>>11439300
>Biblical Christianity.
what kind of idiot heresy is this

>>11439314
That sounds an awful lot like you don't want to tell me that there is an elect because it would invalidate the idea of free will and thus reveal the Calvinist God to be shortsighted, vicious, and meanspirited, worthy only of scorn.

I actually can't get my head around anything besides the Mormon idea (which I know are retarded) that we can choose salvation even after death. Anything else just points to too many contradictions to God's nature. Why the fuck should the elect be forgiven when they are as vicious as anyone else? Because of their unique faith that can only come through Christ? And accepting Christ somehow allows God to see you as perfect, even though as the prime mover, he is ultimately responsible for all sin and viciousness?

>>11439328
>There is no chance that someone could have a valid viewpoint on such things except for you.
If you weren't acting like an effeminate faggot I might have trouble believing that you're right, but so far you're not disproving the theory.

>But as Jesus said, you have to worship in spirit, not in the body.
Sure, but then he also created a universe where mothers murder their children still in the womb, and where brain-dead children are born, and where barely-functional morons abound. What happens to them? Are they zombified, unable to reach salvation because God set in motion fates that would deprive them of the capacity to see him? I'm not saying the idea of ritual without essence doesn't have merit, but if a religion can't definitively point to the fulfillment of the rules, then the criteria of judgement is wicked. How could we even objectively find whether someone had accepted God in the heart? Whenever I see Calvinists batter on about how you just didn't believe hard enough, they're always evidently speaking out of pride.

>>11438638
I guarantee the song that baby is playing is shit.

>>11439464
Isn't the maternal grace of the woman holding him something to behold? I found it on an old article some months ago and can't get it out of my head.

>>11439470
That's something I noticed when I saw your post. Motherhood is really a beautiful thing

>>11439464
Don't doubt the musical ability of children
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbCsHTonpUg

>>11439490
I've posted it here a few times, I think. They were Russian, as I remember. He died young, I can't remember how, and then one of his friends tried to capitalize on it by pretending they had built an AI (which was actually a data-mining chatbot).

I see things like that and am often perturbed. I can endure oblivion for myself. But I don't ever want to think that there could come a time when all the virtues have been washed away by heat death or similar apocalyptica. I need some manner of transcendence, and increasingly it is seeming like Christianity is too flawed to reconcile.

>>11439152
ty bought 100k

>>11439512
>I can endure oblivion for myself. But I don't ever want to think that there could come a time when all the virtues have been washed away by heat death or similar apocalyptica
I definitely get what you mean. The futility of my own life doesn't bother me nearly as much as the thought that millions of people have suffered throughout history for nothing. What exactly is it about Christianity that you find hard to reconcile? And you might want to ask yourself, are those things that it can't be reconciled with actually true at all--that is, of the Eternal.

>>11439446
You don't understand what salvation is.
There is no afterlife. There is no place where souls go after death of their bodies. It's all a metaphor. When you are dead, you are dead for good. In Bible, there isn't a single passage where Jesus promises you some personal eternity, immortality for your conscience. Death is of essence to our lives.
Salvation is reaching understanding — and staying in it, which is even harder — that your time here is limited, your purpose is unknown and your resources as a single human being are scarce. You can spend your life chasing fleeting riches, satisfiying your neverending needs, or you can devote yourself to something bigger and more important than you. Because living in purpose, in logos is better than to be an empty shell through which endless events and phenomena pass and occur with no meaning whatsoever.
Normal life is living in scattered state, where things happen to you with no specific reasons. You just go on with your life, suffer, and then — die, not knowing the why of it. But you can slow down your descent into non-being, think about it, try to reach some meaning of what is happening, always happening. Religious ecstasy— is an ecstasy of a philosopher, who has faith before (not instead) knowledge.

>>11439711
Holy shit you are unironically a gnostic

No one listen to this guy, he is a toxic heretic

>all my friends go to college
>it's shit, quit
>they're all working jobs now, some 9-5, others getting of from work even at 9-10 pm
>i make more than any of them writing smut on the internet
>just bought a new computer by spending a few hours a day writing for furfags

I am literally feeling God's embrace right now. It pays to follow your own path and trust in his love.

>>11439711
>We may note that Gnostic eclecticisms have the following features in common. Their religion appeals to the proud rather than the humble in heart, for it claims to sum up the best in other religions and thus castigates adherents of the older faiths. Its appeal is largely to intellectuals and initiates and not to the great under-privileged multitudes of the world. Their philosophy is almost always pantheistic and shares the characteristic weaknesses of that outlook; for example, it despises the body which for the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit; it teachers an automatic immortality which makes an end of a moral interpretation of history; it depersonalizes God so taht He becomes an 'essence' or 'principle' and ceases to be the Person; consequently it despises history and the world as illusory, and shows an ostrich-like optimism towards sin, and an unwillingness to change the social conditions, which militate against the full development of personality. Salvation is through identification with God by means of meditation, not by the transformation of the will.

>>11439718
>>11439723
yearning for consolation for this life in the afterlife, or living in the hopes that some kind of metaphysical debt will eventually be paid and everything will be okay, is for the weak.

>>11439723
Yeah, so you just try to fit me into some of your predisposed categoris instead of listening to what I have to say, just to explain me away. Nice for you, for you have just missed yet another opportunity for communication.

>>11439711
>In Bible, there isn't a single passage where Jesus promises you some personal eternity, immortality for your conscience
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life." (John 5:24)

>>11439731
I am a Christian and that is not why I am a Christian. I am a Christian to that I can live fully in this life. In the words of Henry David Thoreau, "One world at a time".

>>11438644

>>11439751
I'm not saying there is no eternal life.
He, who lives in understanding, lives in eternal and lives eternally — and yet for a time. You may live as a human, finite being and die in the face of God, in His book of living, or you can live as an eternal creature, as a spirit, and as a finite creature and yet alive before his face.
> Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
>And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

>>11439767
>or you can live as an eternal creature, as a spirit, still die as a finite creature and yet stay alive before His face.
fixed

>>11439767
You have a very interesting take on the Bible. Is this your own interpretation or have you a source?

Dogmas are for autists, church fathers and a couple of patriarchs. Christians themselves never cared about it too much, especially not the details like if the holy spirit comes from the father and the son or just the father. 80% of Catholics are in Church just to hang out and experience the mass, not contemplate dogmas.

>>11439775
A mixture of both, as it always is.
I'm russian, and in russian culture there were many religious thinkers and philosophers. In fact, we don't have that many philosophers in european sense of a word (virtually none).

You have the choice between a reasonable and a meaningful life; you choose the reasonable option and are miserable.
Yet, instead of conceding that Reason is a false friend and even in the face of proof that the other option is the right one, you doggedly stay on your path. What good will it do?
More knowledge, more reason, the advancement of those causes, so that ultimately, more people can be miserable and their lifes futile and filled with turgid depression?

>>11439787
I was uncharitable earlier dismissing you as a gnostic. You seem to have your head screwed on. Best of luck friend

>>11439711
If you're going to deny the Revelations, at least admit you're a heretic.

>>11439285
>To follow Christ you don't even have to be baptized
This is your mind on the reformation

>>11438638
I would recommend against trying to apprehend God through reason, as it doesnt work. While many have written responses to the problems you raise the root is always the same; some feel that behind the world is emptiness and others, fullness, for lack of a better word. This has little to do with intellect, its more like an extra sense that people develop.

I can only tell you what worked for me. One was praying unironically every day. People who like to sneer are free to do so now. Another was learning how to shut off my "inner voice" at will, which was frightening at first because I was quite in love with my own stream of consciousness. But you'll find it difficult to "sense" as I'm describing if youre constantly chattering to yourself. Perform whatever the required rituals of your church are, again unironically (you don't have to "believe", you just have to approach them without a superiority complex). Do this awhile and eventually the picture clicks into place, your ego falls away and you switch over from feeling emptiness to fullness. Good luck.

https://youtu.be/YjOo3QXTKog
This happened when a Feminist demonstration tried to vandalise a Cathedral in my country? In what side do you want to be OP? There's simply no middle ground.

Retarded kike god

>>11439086
>>11438638

Faith is not is not a feeling. Faith is an act of the will.

>>11438647
"Trick" is the right word for it.

>>11439244
O fug

>>11439176
Them and people who believe because "what if it's true?". Didn't Jesus say something about weak charactered people like that, something about being lukewarm?

>>11439820
No, you were right the first time, he's not a Christian.

>>11439164

>>11439542
I suppose I don't see any evidence for it. I don't see why it should be necessary to come to the Divine through Jesus. I don't like that it seems to demonize knowledge. I don't like that salvation is not universal and is based on the content of temporary lives.

Most of all, I don't know of any compelling Christian metaphysicians. Everyone seems to pretend nothing happened after Descartes, and that there is no mind-body problem.

>>11440035
>inb4 larping hypocrites say #notmypope and whine about vatican II despite not knowing anything and never setting foot inside a church

Bump. Pls help, /lit/.

>>11441258
>I suppose I don't see any evidence for it
Well for me the main evidence is the fact that human life calls out for God. I know it's easy to dismiss this as some kind of projection, but I don't think it is by accident that literally every human society ever developed a sense of the transcendent independently. I also find the Aristotelian/Thomistic arguements quite compelling.
>I don't see why it should be necessary to come to the Divine through Jesus. I don't like that it seems to demonize knowledge.
I think the main thing to keep in mind about the Incarnation is that it highlights that faith is not merely a disposition of the mind but involves concerted action as well. Together with that, it is also a life that doesn't exclude people based on their ability. Anyone can follow Christ because at the level where it is simply followed, it isn't a complex message. So I wouldn't say that Christianity demonises knowledge, it just sees it as quite limited, which is hardly unique to the faith. Ultimately, Christianity is a way of life, not an intellectual discipline. Theologians and philosophers can pry all they like, that's good for them and good for the church, but the average layperson has a practical life to live, which doesn't need so much knowledge.
>I don't like that salvation is not universal and is based on the content of temporary lives.
I don't think anyone likes that salvation is not universal, but I comfort myself with the knowledge that it is open to anyone at anytime. God is really just waiting for you to come home. I also believe that he is merciful and just, so I believe we can have confidence that no one goes to Hell unjustly.
>Everyone seems to pretend nothing happened after Descartes, and that there is no mind-body problem.
I'm not familiar with this problem, but I vaguely remember Jacques Maritain tried to address it.

>>11438638
Just like me!

>tfw no friends or acquaintances whatsoever
>tfw I'm so miserable
>...
>...

>tfw the more things you read, the less reasonable it seems to believe in absolutely anything
you seem to be reading garbage

>>11442206
I doubt you read at all.

>>11439286
Szebb jövőt.

>>11442280
Szent Istvan Kiraly ald meg a Magyart

>>11439152

>>11438638
discard your self-loathing; smile at your shadow; submerge in the dark current

>>11439171
It is so sad comparing my High School mormon friends who live happy married lifes with the same friends and the single moms, drop out or unhappy college kids struggling alone that I have to sadly associate myself with.
Your post is underrated.

Occasionalism is the answer

I'm probably just a massive faggot, but I can't shake the feeling that both Christians and atheists aren't fully convinced of their beliefs. That's a good thing up to a certain point, to be skeptical and open-minded, but I've never met a man who lived like life was truly meaningless, just like I've never met a man that seemed 100% set on the fact that he experienced/had a relationship with the presence of the divine. Is agnosticism the default religion? Is everyone just a varying degree of agnostic? Where are the St. Pauls and Marquis de Sades of today?

>>11438638
The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts.

>>11438799
But you aren’t really a believer either way, you would always ultimately know it to be a comfortable lie.
And then you would go to that god a hypocrite.

Bump

>>11443190
sorry that we've failed you op

>>11443388
It's ok. Your dubs sustain me.

>>11440035
imagine if the priest has a foot fetish he has suppressed his entire adult life in service of God

Bump. Please post comfy images until salvation arrives.

>>11439220
>>11439135

That's because you're failing to accept that life is to find meaning, not truth. You are focused on truth.

>>11443638
That's just masturbation.

Spirituality is part of human nature bro. Carl Jung made lots of writings on this. We should all be spiritual beings free of religion even if we do follow a religion. What is most important is that we recognize a god as we want to conceive it, or else we will feel the "Eternal Void Feels" and ultimately spend so much time worrying about creation that we dont enjoy being created and existing and living life.

Bump

>>11443695
>What is most important is that we recognize a god as we want to conceive it
Why believe in God at all if it's just something you made up? That negates the entire purpose of God.

>>11439711

>Normal life is living in scattered state, where things happen to you with no specific reasons

Someone please recommend me some lit which examines this and related problems/solutions

okay, go to Catholic Church

>mind IS body

>>11444003
the stranger

>>11438638
come into the warm embrace of the heavenly father

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GytW_rgr0RM

Realise the void inside comes from alienation and become a communist

>>11438638
I wouldn't say being hopeful that things will turn out well is necessarily happiness. That's how many Christians I've known live their lives.

Bump

>>11438638
Well, I believe that according to Augustine, faith is a necessary precondition to reasoning properly; it is also that which perfects reason. While it is possible to approach truth through natural reason, ultimately faith is a gift from God which cannot be acheived through human effort.

We are all pretty lost in this area OP. None of us on 4chan will really be able to help you on this journey, but the fact that you seem to be searching is an encouraging fact—according to Christ, all those who seek will find what they are looking for. Just don't give into despair—keep looking for the light.

Here is what has helped me: there is an idea in Christian theology that God is "Truth, Beauty and Goodness." I confess that I have not been able to apprehend God through truth, nor have I been able to reach Him through goodness; however, I do believe that through the beautiful, I have caught a glimpse of Him—there is a depth to any aesthetic experience which seems infinite, and I do feel that God is present there.

Of course, what works for me may not work for you. Just keep searching, and please do not close yourself off to love, truth, goodness or beauty.Don't despair: all will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well. I'll keep you in my prayers tonight OP.

>>11438638
god i wish that were me

>>11444936
Why does this building look like a rendered 3d model in literally every photograph of it?
Is it because it's so clean?

>>11444953
please fuck off, faggot

>>11439711
Based

>>11439271
>T someone who hasn't read the Bible

>>11445566
That's like some full-house level dubs

>>11445566
Thanks, Anon.

>>11444936
If that building is what I think it is, not more than a 5-10 minute walk away is a thriving open air market for heroin and crack

>>11438647
kek

sorry mai fren, theres no comin back.

jump into the void and wait until the world reveals itself. if you try to go back or stop halfway youll regret it.

>>11438650
they are solved by default by not even arising.

>>11439807
>DUDE JUST TURN YOUR BRAIN OFF AND BE HAPPY LMAO

>>11445566
I approve this message

Bump

>>11440035
Catholics are retarded and have no control over God even though they like to think they do

>>11438638
Then you're reading the wrong stuff. Supplement your fiction reading with some hard science.

>>11447255
>I JUST LOOOOOOVE SCIENCE xD
>>>/r/eddit

>tfw if you could just make someone understand your life experiences they would "get it"
>tfw you try to write but you give up a few months in because you fail to communicate the truth

>>11445566

>Here is what has helped me: there is an idea in Christian theology that God is "Truth, Beauty and Goodness."
isnt that Plato?

>>11439316
>You cannot have faith in things that exist empirically around you for they exist without your effort or presence.
>empirically
The history of British Empiricism is a history of needing to have faith in the existence of things without oneself. As George Berkeley put it, "esse est percipi." Even Kant couldn't prove the thing-in-itself; he left the backdoor open for Hegelian idealism.

That said, I don't think anyone has sufficiently disproved direct realism, but the issue of corporeal reality still exists as a matter of faith.

>>11438638

Cognitive dissonance, lack of curiosity, peer pressure to conform, suppression of doubts, sheer terror of death...I mean, it's easy to do, if you want to trade in for the security of religious comfort. But that's all it is, a comfort. You cannot abdicate your reason, or your concern for the truth. Now that you have doubted, you can never enter into their company.

>>11447492
>if you want to trade in for the security of religious comfort

>I think there is no suffering greater than what is caused by the doubts of those who want to believe. I know what torment this is, but I can only see it, in myself anyway, as the process by which faith is deepened. A faith that just accepts is a child's faith and all right for children, but eventually you have to grow religiously as every other way, though some never do.
>What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course it is the cross. It is much harder to believe than not to believe. If you fell you can't believe, you must at least do this: keep an open mind. Keep it open toward faith, keep wanting it, keep asking for it, and leave the rest to God. --Flannery O'Connor

>>11447582
>They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course it is the cross.

I tried to be Catholic for about 2 years. It didn't work, no matter how much Christian philosophy I read. Just made me more committed to agnosticism in the end.

Bump

>>11438647
St. Thomas did not give any proof specific to Christianity: it's theology, not philosophy, and it is assumed from the start that Faith will still be required, regardless of your opinion on the Ontological Argument.

>>11438799
What a weakling. You truly disgust me.

>>11438638
we should audit the Vatican bank

>>11438638
The greatest issue with the bible is that it is kind of boring and badly written not philosophy. No philosophy can disprove faith. The problem is that the bible is shit at inspiring faith.

>>11448192
OMG, you are so strong and alpha

>>11448243
Waaaa I'm so sad waaaaa

>>11448232
>it is kind of boring and badly written
only the pentateuch

>>11442820
>I've never met a man that seemed 100% set on the fact that he experienced/had a relationship with the presence of the divine
I've met loads. Don't take your experience for more than it is(very limited).

>>11448192
If it's all just bland mechanistic materialism, then the aesthete response is entirely warranted.

>>11447482
That is why I said "exist empirically", not "exist ontologically" or something like it.
When we percieve (and knowing something empirically is knowing something through perception and experience) objects of outer world we need practically no effort to percieve them. A tree grows by your window and you see it every morning whether you want it or not. Objects of faith do not exist in such a way, they only gain existence by your effort and exercise (i.e. there is no traffic law if no one is abiding it (no one exercises it), even if it's written down somewhere).

>>11448427
So you've met a lot of schizophrenics. Big whoop.

>>11447249
They have control ovee God's people and thus over God. Haha christianity is such a meme

>>11445566
Those dubs

>>11445566
>Well, I believe that according to Augustine, faith is a necessary precondition to reasoning properly
10/10

>>11445566
Mighty digits.

>>11438638
It sounds cliché but you need to have faith Anon.
Reason can only take you so far. You have to make the final leap alone.

Not everything that matters is 100% provable. In fact, most of the valuable things in life can't be proven at all. Can you prove love, or great literature, or great music? No, they have to be felt and experienced. God is like that.

>>11448843
Further, as those things I mentioned, their effect can be felt on the world. Like a shadow or a reflection. There are patterns for you to see and there is meaning behind those patterns, to perceive and grasp what is behind them.

>>11439106
cringe

>>11443638
Some peoples meaning is simply to know. We all have an irrational drive, it may be turned to this or that, but it is always present and supercedes the rational. God is the universal expercing himself. Follow your will among the innumerable others, whether it be to hate, love, kill, conquer, procreate or truth seek.

>>11444936
Anon, my wife is LDS and I'm really swayed but their traditional values but I just can't get over them letting niggers into the priesthood. Even my local bishop was black. They were so based and pro-white in the past but what's next, LGBT stuff? It's so sad. How do I overcome this feeling?

>>11448890
Stick your neck in a noose maybe ????

>>11448898
I didn't ask for the opinion of bluepilled faggots

>>11448890
Wait till you find out about their scientology tier beliefs.

>>11448915
I know a lot about the church. It's a bit weird but I'm okay with their theology. I'm even okay with the polygamy stuff (Which LDS doesn't officially endorse anymore anyway). I just can't get over the multi-culturalism, let's "help" the third-world and spread a white religion to non-white country agenda. It feels as compromised as everything else today.

>>11448921
The only reason its any good, the theology is like any other weird little sect of Baptists or fundamentalists is that it has strong influenced from the Christianity of old. With its rich lore and doctrine in symbolism, ritual, architecture, archetypes etc. Its why these weird little doomsday cults claiming to be Christian and the like don't seem to have any beauty of religion. Thats because they don't, they've just became weird cults that have no elements of religion other than a big of talk about Jesus. Mormonism was a halfway point between the beauty of the older churches and full blowm schizo groups like the family.

>>11438739
Genesis is GOAT

>>11448946
I agree with this post. Pretty insightful thanks. I'm guessing something like Orthodox would resonate the most with me. I read Tolstoy's essays and find them inspiring. Unfortunately my country (England) doesn't really have Orthodoxy. Maybe Celtic Christianity had similar elements but I'm not sure that still exists in any form at all.

>>11438638
>the less reasonable it seems to believe in absolutely anything
Do you mean to "absolutely anything" as in nothing, or do you mean it's less reasonable to have absolute belief? If the latter, good on you.

>>11439170
I like this comment

>>11439285
this is a good post, keep this mindset; but go to church anyway
individualized faith and study cross-referenced with the interactions of the church community (over the long term <--IMPORTANT) is what works most well

>>11439711
you're wrong about no afterlife, but keep this train of thought
"sin" means when an arrow fails to fly appropriately toward the mark; you could think of "sinning" as "taking the illogical paths in my thought"
but the Bible does promise an afterlife, but this position is valuable for learning purposes

>>11444061
>mind IS body
that sounds correct, we say we're not the body due to its fleeting nature and the mind is just as--if not more--fleeting than the body

>>11439711
This is a really good post. It's basically what I believe but you put it into better words than I ever could. Well done.

>>11448957
Anglicans still have a lot of religious beauty.

>>11448992
Oh and dont mean the actual hirearchy of the church today but you could likley find some small trad groups.

>>11448992
>>11448999
Thanks Anon. Yeah, the actual church structure is totally subverted. Anglicanism is where my journey began but like most mainstream churches, it's so watered down, there was nothing compelling or of genuine substance to connect with longterm, so I fell away and became an Atheist for some 10 or 15 years. Some smaller groups might be the right idea though.

All I want is a church with balls and genuine convictions and principles that it will stand with against the modern tide of degeneracy. Doesn't seem like such a big demand does it? But it's so extremely rare.

>>11449024
Its very hard to find a church like that, except for maybe the greek orthodox. Your best bet is trying to find a nice trad (which would be considered extreme) anglican or catholic group, or something closley related to it.

>>11449042
Can I join this if I'm not ethnically Greek? Will there be any kind of objections socially, even if not explicitly by the church itself? I'm already somewhat familiar with the language from reading the New Testament.

>>11449057
You can definitely join, but will you face discrimination? Most in England would be fairly welcoming to a geuine convert but some isolated communities may feel some tribalism.

>>11449075
That's understandable as I would feel the same way. Thanks for your help. I will investigate.

>>11439711
I have wondered if Jesus was really just a moral philosopher and the Kingdom of Heaven was the state of mind you're in when you're a good guy and you live that way.

>>11449096
No worries.

>>11449110
There are some "out there" theories that Jesus went east and learnt of Buddhism and Hinduism becoming a monk and returned mixing it with Judaism.

>>11439718
I want to be a toxic heretic. How does one into Gnosticism.

>>11439285

>>11438638
>TFW no friends
>TFW no friends attempting to get me into Christianity

How come mudslimes aren't affected by today's society? Is it because of the repercussions and pursuit they will suffer if they abandon islam? Then that means they only stay faithful out of pure fear.

>>11450134
>tfw no gf

>>11450414
Isn't having a gf(male) a sin?

>>11450432

>>11450440
I'll take that as a yes.

>>11439152
I legitimately cringed.

>>11450153
You have to go back.

>>11439171
You are deluded through the manipulated of truths. Christ followers are happier, but not because of political or world power. That doesn't make sense.
Christ IS joy. And part of that joy is through community, ya.

And no one is "ignoring" how shitty the world is. Christians right now are decrying the murder of fellow Christians in Muslim countries. Pope decried pollution, and warned the world of climate change.

>>11443638
but meaning is presupposed on the good, and what is good must be true.

>>11439152

>>11450134
I did it all alone. It can be done.

>>11438638
Of course they're happy, they're stupid. They have their nice little Jewish drug that's going to keep them going for life.

>>11447428
It is in Plato, but is also heavily emphasized in Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Theology—Augustine, who is a saint for both, (although I think the Orthodox have an ambivalent relationship to him) had this to say:

“Late have I loved you, beauty so old and so new: late have I loved you. And see, you were within and I was in the external world and sought you there, and in my unlovely state I plunged into those lovely created things which you made. You were with me, and I was not with you. The lovely things kept me far from you, though if they did not have their existence in you, they had no existence at all. You called and cried out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness. You were fragrant, and I drew in my breath and now pant after you. I tasted you, and I feel but hunger and thirst for you. You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain the peace which is yours.”

Concerning later Roman Catholic Theology, I believe that Thomas Aquinas also links up Truth, Beauty, and Goodness with God (along with Oneness) but I have not read the Summa.

I don't really know how later Orthodox thologians approached the topic. [—anyone here have any expertise in this area?]

So, certainly you are not wrong about the Platonic conception, but the idea of God being ultimate Beauty, Truth and Goodness does seem to be present in Christianity. God bless.

>>11439296
Even Jesus was baptised by another man in the grace of God. This isn't a fake symbol like the Holy Communion that was inspired by pagan beliefs and pushed by popeniggers

>>11439170
and then study biology and neuroscience and you forget christianity again

>>11453433
see >>11439220

>>11451722

>>11439101
I do this to. Why? What is causing this?

>>11439273
Try a Catholic or Orthodox mass.

>>11438739
Hello Jordan

>>11438638
>tfw the more things you read, the less reasonable it seems to believe in absolutely anything
How can this be?
All the thoughts and patterns you've read, their attitudes and implications toward anything at all, but most, the divine - what do they amount to? Confusion? Certainty? What of the beauty and your tiresome nature of knowledge? Have you attained anything profound?
Things don't make sense if you have the wrong frame of reference, a lacking map and no experience - just wild phenomenon. God is someone, and should be approached certain ways. You won't find God in the input stream any more than you'll find another consciousness.