/lit/ - Literature

I'm a Brazilian law student, but I don't read many law books. It's just quite pointless. There are only three ways to learn: reading extremely dense manuals, attending classes or learning with practice (which is the best method).
I reckon I'll read shorter books when I start specializing in a field. Until then it's pointless. Not sure how it is in the US.

bump

>>11432901
What preparation have you done so far? What was your STEM degree in?

>>11432901
Very unlikely you will get the top score. You don't even seem to understand how the LSAT operates.

>>11433962
I haven't done anything at all really. I've only recently started to consider Law as a serious option for the future. I graduated with an electrical engineering and computer engineering degree, I work as a software engineer, and patent law is a possibility for me if I wanted to pursue it. But before all that, I will probably spend a few months studying for the LSAT before I make my first attempt at it.

>>11434332
One can learn, no? Isn't it just jumping through all the same banal hoops of standardized test studying?

>>11434647
It isn't that bad. You probably don't need a months of prep. Just take it once first with the expectation of an average score. This way you get a feel for the test and know what to expect as you prepare for the next time. You should really try started a more general law thread and then drop the question in the posts of that because it will attract more people who can help answer this.

Pity bump. Should have been a more general thread. Too specific to attract most /Litlaw/ people.

>>11432901
Lawyer here, two years into practice. My quality of life is worse than any friend in any profession, my days are long and filled with dreadful tedium, I cannot sustain relationships, I don’t read anymore, I don’t write anymore, I want to neck myself (unironically).
Worst imaginable profession. Please just stay away.

What are some good courses to take in University if one were to be a lawyer?

>>11437437
Layer here, ignore him. He is just one of the pathetic failures.

>>11437437
Thanks for the morivation bro, really appreciate it

>>11437461
The only lawyers who have any quality of life are essentially poor.

>>11432901
Insurance Defense lawyer here. I am reading:

1) House of Leaves (terrible piece of shit of a book)
2) The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (comfy)
3) The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes (God-tier non fiction)
About to read Herman Hesse next based on a previous thread

I did a semester of law school at the top school in my country. Absolutely hated it and dropped out to return to my previous career. It is way, way, way more boring than you can possibly imagine, and the type of people it attracts are mostly awful. On top of that it is super expensive and not very versatile as a degree unless you are sure you want to be a lawyer. See if you can work as a paralegal o something law related first before you jump into law school. I wish I had done this before starting so I would have known what I was signing up for before I was paying for it. Also, I really enjoyed studying for and taking the LSAT. Be warned: the LSAT is nothing like law school and enjoying one does not translate into enjoying the other.

BA with an English literature and philosophy double major here

I originally wanted to be a lawyer but IMO it’s not worth it anymore unless you can get into one of the top 10ish law schools or if you can get a full ride at a decent school. Otherwise, the chances of getting a job that pays enough money to quickly pay off your 200k-300k of loans are very low. There’s a very real chance that you will be in debt well into your 40s and 50s (my cousin is going through this right now)

I decided to become a CPA instead. It’s pretty similar to law but much cheaper and much better job prospects

>>11437545
Imagine being this much of a brainlet. You aren't going to make it.

>>11437555
Anyone here, don't fall for the fucking top 10 meme.

>>11437562
It’s not a meme, kid

>>11437562
Don’t fall for it as in you’ll be ok going to a lower tier school or don’t fall for it as you should also avoid the top 10 schools?

I work at a law office that defends banks in foreclosure action. Its odd to me how liberal the dorks here are.

>>11432901
Masters in Tax Law in Portugal. Life couldn't be better.

>>11437571
You'll be ok going to a lower tier school. Was told this is especially the case if you go to law school at a school in the State/region you plan to work in.

If you get into one of the top 10 schools then more power to you.

>>11437567
But it is, kiddo.

So it seems no one here has ever done any serious research into law school.

- First of all, the highest tier list for schools is top 14 not top 10. Second tier list goes to 25 followed by 50.

- Second, law school isn't like med, pharmacy, dental, etc schools where if you have a sob story it helps (Blacks and Mexicans do get AA because they're lower IQ).
THE ONLY THING LAW SCHOOL CARES ABOUT IS LSAC GPA and LSAT SCORE.
http://www.hourumd.com/ There's even a damn calculator to give you your odds on acceptance. This is because how law school rankings from USNEWS works. They only look at those two criteria so if a school started accepting sob stories they'd fall in rankings. Here's a video of a former LSAT president talking about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Wz5UhsHKc

Third, the LSAT is more or less an IQ test. This is why autists have in the past cold taken the LSAT and scored fairly high on their very first time. This also means past LSAT tests should not be wasted and are worth their weight in gold. A common saying I read was if your real LSAT score is 4 points under your practice exams you got nervous and fucked up (thus retake it). I found a torrent of past LSAT 1-75 on our favorite pirating ship website (just search "Lsat").

Read everyone you can on reddit/lsat, reddit/lawschooladmissions, and toplawschoolforums. Create a schedule for your studying. Make sure not to waste past LSAT exams and quantify everything to make sure you can reach your score goal (thus get into the school you want).

>>11437641
What is our favourite website? Link download for all of the past LSATs?

>>11437641
>American legalism is based on IQ tests
Explains why american legal theory is chink tier. Insectoid mentality

>>11437646
www (d.o.t) thepiratebay (d.o.t) org/search/lsat/0/99/0

Let's see if this goes through. There's the 1-74 one (should be 2nd on the list) and the 75-80 torrent (#4)

>>11437658
>chink tier
This combination of words caused me abdominal combustion

>>11437669
Am I wrong though?

>>11437673
I’m not sure. We have Marshall, Holmes, Brandeis, Harlan, and some may even say Scalia, to stand on. That’s not a bad cast.

>>11437641
>implying anyone on this website or Reddit could get into a top 14 law school, score 170 or higher on the LSAT, or graduate college with a high GPA

Where do you think we are?

>>11437680
Sorry, but...literally who?

/r/any non-americans to tell me who the hell are the guys this anon just mentioned because I sure as hell don't them.

>>11437690
google it you third world mongoloid

>>11437694
>third world
American legal theory is irrelevant. Even Portuguese legal theorists are more relevant in the whole world than your insectoid soon-to-be Mexico 2. The only thing you had going was Dworkin and he was shunned by his own country

>>11437641
>>11437658
The LSAT is not an IQ test. The SATs are not an IQ test. The GRE is not an IQ test.

Yes, standardized tests are correlated with IQ. But if you actually had a high IQ you would already know that extrapolating your IQ from an achievement test based on prior crystallized knowledge your parents paid to stuff in your 110 skull is the behavior of a pseud who was too dumb for a real intelligence test

>I don't know my IQ so I have to use my SATs as a substitute
If you don't know your IQ then it's probably mediocre to low. In every major Western country on the planet, primary schoolteachers are trained to identify gifted children from an early age and administer to them IQ tests. Point being, the only people taking IQ tests are those who are probably going to do well--teachers and adminstrators know that informing the public of its low IQ would cripple their self worth

>>11437785
>In every major Western country on the planet, primary schoolteachers are trained to identify gifted children from an early age and administer to them IQ tests.
Wrong. This nowhere happens in Europe; might happen in on one or countries in the least, but nothing more than that. Americans overvalue IQ; might be the reason why your society is so devoid of actual creative people and you have to import Euros, Indians et cetera to compensate for your XX century education model.

Stop spreading the meme that law as a profession is /lit/. I work as a insurance lawyer and it feels like being an office clerk but actually having stuff to do all the time.

The LSAT is a very learnable and gameable test. Plenty of study guides exist for it.

Top 14 law school gets you the $200k jobs, but you can do well if you go to your states top school. Otherwise, if you don't want to be buried in debt you need to know exactly what you want to be doing and gear your entire legal education towards that - the worst thing you can be is undecided.

The most successful lawyers I know are the ones who either graduated top of class or knew exactly what they wanted to do: the teacher who got into education law, the CPA who focused on tax law, and the one super Catholic dude who just wanted to go back to his family's farm and be a general counsel (He's the happiest person I know and is now the mayor of his small town). The most miserable and debt-laden lawyers went undecided and fell into their particular field. Myself included.

>>11432901
>I'm a Brazilian law student, but I don't read many law books. It's just quite pointless
That explains a lot about Brazil

>>11437874
this. worst profession in the modern world

>>11438089
Not for an Ivy League lawyer

Supreme Court Gang checking in.

>>11438123
Not for the top 5% of ivy league lawyers, maybe 10% if you have some nepotistic connections. Law is a literal meme, you have to actually do work lmao.

>>11432901
2nd year Law Student here as well, I studied STEM in undergrad as well, and it has made me very marketable in the IP field

You can't just ACE the LSAT, it is a very unique exam. You need to do a lot of prep to maximize your score, but the test is based in your logical reasoning and reading comprehension skills. There are no facts to study that will allow you to ace it. You are essentially limited by your natural ability, however, a good amount of prep can always get you at least a decent score.

>>11437437
guys like this are pussies who can't manage their work/life balance and bend over backwards for anyone around them, don't go into law if you're gonna be like them OP

>>11438200
>Lacks any conception of the billable hour
You shouldn’t have been allowed to sit for the LSAT, let alone the bar.

I haven't read a law book in a while outside of my syllabus, unless jurisprudence counts which it probably doesn't. I've been reading Carl Schmitt lately, he's fun.

>>11438265
i know what billable hours are, 2000 standard billable is less than 40 hours a week, obviously you can't bill every hour you work but thats still not that bad at all, ive been working way more than that since i started undergrad and I've always had a super active social life

>>11438279
2,000 billable hours a year is roughly 8.6 billable hours a day when you consider vacation and holidays. And since about only 70% of the work one does during a day is billable, you’re working about 10-12 hours a day to make that work. Tell me again how that’s under 40 hours per week?
Absolute brainlet

>>11433012
Yes. Here in Brazil is just like that

>>11438287
I specifically said it was NOT under 40 hours a week because you cant bill for all your work, maybe youre the brainlet if you can't into reading comprehension

>>11438311
>2000 standard billable is less than 40 hours per week
Direct quote. What am I missing?

>>11438287
sorry you're bitter than you have no control over your life and hate your job

>>11438317
>obviously you can't bill every hour you work but thats still not that bad at all
you're missing the second part of the sentence friendo!

>>11438319
Thank you

>>11438330
Friendo you still maintain it’s under 40 hours. at no point did you change your stance on that.

>LSAT is a good indicator of good reasoning
>anons who claim to be "lawyers" are functional illiterates
wew...so this is the power of American higher education

>>11437690
They're SCOTUS judges, not legal philosophers, though you might say Holmes dabbled. Not surprised you don't know them--why would you read legal decisions and slog through technical language if you're not in practice?

Canadian articling student here, we read a lot of Holmes and a little of Brandeis/Harlan/Marshall. Scalia didn't come up except briefly in criminal law. I think the consensus is that legal rigour has been declining at SCOTUS since it started becoming more heavily politicized.

>>11432901
OP, two of the LSAT sections are acquired skills. You can get a lot better at logic games and logical reasoning really fast if you put your mind to it. Reading comprehension is more difficult to improve in a short time. Go do a diagnostic, see where you're at. Don't join the profession unless you actually want to be a lawyer, and don't pay a dime more than you need to in any case.

I'm reading One Hundred Years of Solitude.

>>11438366
SCOTUS appointees are still VERY intelligent and the court has literally always been political, they used to literally change the number of seats to try and have it lopsided

>>11438366
>legal philosophers
I never mentioned philosophy of law; what I did referred to was legal theory. And I'm practicing law. I, and the rest of the world, don't work with common law, thus "American" Schmittism is to me, and, again, to the rest of the world, utterly irrelevant. This is why I said that American legal theory is irrelevant: its too much of a specific legal realism that hasn't any use outside of it. As I said; the only american legal theorist that MIGHT be relevant is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Dworkin

But nothing besides that. And even him is considered a poor man's Robert Alexy (very famous German constitutionalist)

>>11438369
True, but I don't doubt their intelligence at all. I think the criticism is that too many decisions are now determined by political affiliation rather than by intellect. We expect judges to be influenced by politics or political traditions, but not beholden to them.

Still, perhaps us outsiders are cherrypicking and this is an old phenomenon? I haven't read any jurisprudence around Reconstruction, but I imagine there's a prima facie case for those decisions being politically determined too.

Law student from some irrelevant country here. Exam's a joke, market's saturated (as it is one of the few 'real' careers that don't have any math) and pay is two cents short of nothing.
I'm thinking of going into politics, i like power

>>11438387
> I, and the rest of the world, don't work with common law, thus "American" Schmittism is to me, and, again, to the rest of the world, utterly irrelevant. This is why I said that American legal theory is irrelevant: its too much of a specific legal realism that hasn't any use outside of it.
> I, and the rest of the world, don't work with common law
Today, one-third of the world's population lives in common law jurisdictions or in systems mixed with civil law, including[15] Antigua and Barbuda, Australia,[16][17] Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados,[18] Belize, Botswana, Burma, Cameroon, Canada (both the federal system and all its provinces except Quebec), Cyprus, Dominica, Fiji, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Israel, Jamaica, Kenya, Liberia, Malaysia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Sierra Leone, Singapore, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Trinidad and Tobago, the United Kingdom (including its overseas territories such as Gibraltar), the United States (both the federal system and 49 of its 50 states), and Zimbabwe. Some of these countries have variants on common law systems.

>>11438427
Which irrelevant country anon?

>>11438387
>and the rest of the world

Except Canada, the UK, South Africa, Israel, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand...

I really like your view of the US, it is an extremely specific legal realism. Your reference to Schmitt also picks up on what's at stake when an intelligent jurist is captured by political interests. But the US legal system is not only a national reality, it's a totally different systemic reality too. Common law jurisdictions don't need legal theory in the same way that civil law jurisdictions don't need precedent. You're making a category mistake to think it's relevant whether a common law jurisdiction has developed civilian institutions.

>>11438428
>one third
>only 3 of that quantity are actually relevant
desperate attempt, but ok
Btw the UK and Ireland do not have a pure common law system. Especially Ireland

Interesting thread guys. Nice to see a general Law thread on here again.

Bump

>>11437478
Not a lawyer yet but worked in a law firm, the lawyers would work until 6-7, and they weren't neets so they weren't miserable failures

>>11438486
>Common law jurisdictions don't need legal theory in the same way that civil law jurisdictions don't need precedent.
This is where we disagree (by far). The common law system uses legal argumentation to a point that it some court rooms cease to be the home of justice, but rather a debate club possessed by eristic. With this I mean to say that the study of analogy, interpretation (this is offensively undervalued in american legal theory; I get personally offended by your country's lack of study for the ESSENTIAL tool) et cetera.

>>11439044
Recommend any video/book on common vs civil law?

>>11439044
Any comparative law book on the matter will suffice; but the research (on your behalf) that I just did I think this will be suited to satisfy your interest in the matter:
http://libgen .io/book/index.php? md5=C8D09BAB42E8252FD72936550E6C001B (remove the spaces)

(I meant to respond to >>11439064 and not to myself.)

>>11432901
Anyone else /Jewish/ and /studyinglaw/ here?

>>11438387
>I, and the rest of the world, don't work with common law
bitch, you FUCKEN blind

>>11439095
Nope. No Jews on /lit/.

>>11439103
Stay delusional, common law insectoid

>>11439120
Enjoy your own little world, civil law brainlet

>>11439146
>resorts to meme images to make his point
predictable

>>11439185
:OOOOOOOOOOO

>>11439166
Says the man calling people insectoids.

>>11439185
>>11439192
What even?

Read Schmitt

>>11433012
>>11438308
You two are the exact people I dispised when I was in brazilian law school.
Fuck, I bet you guys will say its worthless to read the classic works of philosophy of law right? Jesus, thats one of the reasons I hate my country: future bureocrats gonna be like the previous, automatons with no mind and no soul and who fucking destroyer everthing.
That Brazil movie is each day closer to be a copy of real life Brazil.
God, how I hate this place.

>>11432901
I don't know what or how a LSAT works in your country, OP. Here in mine (Brazil) to go to law college after going to a regular test, with asks you a bunch of questions that you (in theory) learned in high school(math, history, etc) Based on your result, you may enter in college. In law college, the first year usualy is adaptation, because majority of people who enter college are still with the high school mindset, and due to Brazil's failure at education, some courses will even go as far as to teach high school stuff. Idk how your test works, but if is like here, study your high school books and their subject and then go to law school with a lot of willpower, because you will need it later on.

Damn how many people from Brazil are there on here?

How useful is doing law as uni choice with the objective of becoming a cop? (in Italy)

>>11438912
Cool story. good luck reading diligently and writing anything of value while working in a law office from 8-7 every day.

>>11437834
>I have a low IQ
ftfy, Eurotard

>>11440573
Do you have criminal justice degrees offered there?

>>11440667
Idk where you're from but here in Canada they start at 9. And how much time do you waste on 4chan that you think working til 6 or 7 leaves you no time to read?

>>11440735
Oh I get it, you’re still in college. Wait and see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=742JyiqLhuk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJedzWtu-JM&t=2s

>>11440880
Thanks, I'll have to check these out later.

>>11439044
Let's put aside the constant interpretation and analogy driven by precedent in common law systems and assume that you're just talking about theory-driven reasoning. That's an essential tool for civilians, yes, but you're still making the mistake of thinking that common law is a defective attempt to replicate the civil law. It's not.

You should think about the common law on its own terms, which means taking precedent and case law seriously as a source of authority. This would also mean you could later think about customary and religious systems of law on their own terms. You're making a mistake and impoverishing law when you assert that the civilian method of reasoning is the only possible one.

>>11439064
Although previous anon and I disagree about things, I think the Lundmark book looks like a fine place to start. You might also check out The Making of Civil Law by Alan Watson or Judges, Legislators and Professors by RC van Caenegem (in the latter see especially "The Common Law is Different: Ten Illustrations").

>>11439906
I read several philosophy of law books, it's in fact one of my favorite disciplines.
I am also against bureaucracy and an avid supporter of corruption when it's done to ignore useless laws to no one's harm.
Your projections are inaccurate. I am also afraid you don't know that much about the topic at hand if you think OP was talking about reading philosophy books when he mentioned getting a good LSAT score. Americans study law very differently from us, and that is simply because their material and exams were built around such tradition.

bump

>>11440705
Not in my uni
Just giurisprudenza

>>11440537
i guess a handfull. Brazilian law student here. Kinda hating it tough.

>>11437593
Coimbra?

>>11442356
Lisboa, mpt. I'm from FDL but I'd rather be from Coimbra. Nonetheless; FDL > Católica > Coimbra > NOVA > FDP

anyone else here thoroughly enjoying law school despite all the miserable fucks who told me i would hate it for all of undergrad?

>>11442374
Yes. Ignore the losers. Law makes you capable of becoming part of the elite of your political community.

>>11432901
i go to a t14 and i want to die
i have never been less intellectually stimulated in my life

>>11442581
I've heard that the other top 50 schools are still good while babying you less than a lot of the T14s, would you say this is true in your experience? obviously the T14s are still better for career options

>>11442606
honestly, job prospects arent even that great at t14. i definitely wouldn't suggest going lower unless you're staying local or getting a full ride.

whatever you do, don't go straight through from undergrad unless you're a huge loser

>>11442608
im already a 2L, I go to a top 50, just curious, worked in a firm for half a year prior so i guess im not a loser

>>11442374
sorry to say this, but it’s axiomatic that if you love law school you will hate practice. You’re me, btw. loved everything about law school.

>>11442641
but I've liked the two legal jobs I've had as well...

>>11442642
If you’re still in school, they’re internships.

>>11437437
Ignore this faggot, there’s one in every thread. Law is great OP, it’s very interesting and intellectually stimulating.

>>11437641
This. I practiced for two weeks and got a shitty score even though I still got in. The LSAT is very much an exam you can improve on. You need at least a few months if you want a great score because once you learn the logic concepts it takes time to fully get the hang of them and let everything sort of ‘click’.

LSAT is one of those dick measuring tests. If you do well you can humble brag; if you do shit or average, your ego is going to take a hit.

>>11442864
why are you trying to drag others into your misery? Like a crab in a boiling bucket.

Misery? Sounds pretty great from what >>11442864 said. I guess you are just one of those faggots he was referring to?

>>11442893
Misery? What are you talking about? Things are pretty comfy like >>11442864 said. Or are you one of those faggots he was talking about?

>meet lawyers. they are smart as hell
>meet people from nearly every other profession, dumb as shit

being a lawyer makes you smart

>>11443516
Unironically this.

>>11442893
I am actually a Lobster! - Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

>I like my job!