/lit/ - Literature

>>11299562
we have meat tearing teeth.

We may have teeth that are made for eating meat, but then shouldn't we as humans be above the primal needs?
Veganism is a first step toward transhumanism, prove me wrong.

>>11299588
>but then shouldn't we as humans be above the primal needs?
that's not how it works.

Most vegans I've met irl have underlying mental health problems. Pay no attention to them

>>11299562
>What philosophers/authors etc. have spoken about this topic?

Well, anon have you tried reading medical journals, there are probably quite a few on the topic.

On a personal note, no, vegans are not right, fuck them and their preachy shit

>>11299562
If you think it's wrong to hurt animals when it can be avoided then eating them is wrong. If you don't then it's not. You're welcome.

>>11299562
If you became a vegan, how would you complete the power process?

it's equally immoral to kill plants and animals. plants are more intelligent, emotional, and moral than a vast majority of animals.

>>11299686

sorry, too simplistic. most of the animals that are eaten owe their lives to the meat industry. death is a small price to pay for being brought into existence in the first place. meat eaters are entitled to gorge.

t. vegan

>>11299698
hypocrite. the same can be said about the agriculture industry.

>>11299562
I know what biology says, more and more studies prove that plants are alive, they hear, feel the bite of insects, move away from them or try to defend themselves. I also know what physics says, we are made of the exact same substance, who judges if a plant or a fish or a pig is less "alive" . Its obvious we are made to eat meat, try raising a child without meat and dairy only with plants.

>>11299698
I don't understand. Why is being brought into existence an inherently good thing?

>>11299562
>implying plants aren't alive

Reminder that eating meat causes more animal and plant suffering, as the animals you eat have to be fed.

>>11299575
We have teeth to break open nuts, and teeth to grind fibrous food. We have intestines to break down plants

>>11299729
no. if you want the least amount of suffering, then you would only eat bacteria slurry.

>>11299742
Doesn't contradict my statement.

>>11299729
Reminder that eating plants causes animal, plant and human suffering, because large scale aggregation, especially for large corporations cause extensive environmental damage, and human abuse. Forests are slashed and burned, villages are displaced, and the people "hired" to farm and reap the plants are usually mistreated and grossly underpaid.

Be vegan if you want, but don't fucking pretend you have some kind of moral high ground.

>>11299739
I don't understand your point. We're omnivorous.

>>11299562
They are certainly right about the health benefits, if you disagree with that you are delusional.
Morality is a spook.

>but anon eating meat isnt necessary at all

>>11299747
you want to minimize suffering, so you should go all the way.

>>11299751
Being vegan causes less of such suffering since less plants have to be produced to feed a vegan. I'm not saying anything about anyone's moral value.

>>11299768
you claim to care about suffering, yet refuse to become exclusive bacteria eater to minimize the suffering that you cause.

You can live without meat but it becomes relatively expensive and impractical if you want to actually keep your nutrition up to par.
I rather wait for synthetic meat, it's right around the corner and we'll have to stop bothering with the question.

>>11299754
He’s pointing out the red herring in trying to discuss our anatomical predisposition. Also having anatomical features suitable for certain kinds of foods does not imply that it is morally permissible to eat those foods. This approach is dumb anyway.

>>11299787
No it does not it isn't expensive at all I buy my beans for 20 cents a can.

>>11299713
https://youtu.be/CI_5VBQUcTk

>>11299797
>implying you only need to replace iron
>implying canned food is part of a good standard of living

>>11299804
I was just giving an example vegan diets are cheap as fuck you do not know what you are talking about.
And canned food is fine.

>>11299763
>>11299785
I'm not vegan. I don't give a shit about animal or plant suffering. Morality is a spook and all that. I'm just saying that vegans cause less of it. If you care about that that's up to you.

>>11299562
Veganism is retarded, vegetarianism is not though. Nowadays domesticated animals are used to producing things like wool and milk so leaving them be will just kill them. You can make sure that you buy animal products from reputable sources, and I think that would be alright. Not eating meat is good, but not eating animal products just hurts the animals

>>11299818
ok, and im saying that vegans are hypocritical because they care about suffering and refuse to follow the axiom of reducing the suffering through their dietary choice. veganism is like choosing to kill 1 person, rather than 5 people or 0 people when all options are possible.

>>>/fit/

>>11299829
Is it possible to live off just bacteria though?
And does that statement not apply to most people? Most non-vegans are against causing animal suffering in terms of abusing pets and such.

>>11299751
Literally none of that is the fault of veganism and instead the fault of greedy and unsustainable farming practices

Read Ted's manifesto, he literally explains the process behind veganism.

black lives matter

>>11299837
>plantcuck turns out to be a commie
it's pretty obvious in hindsight.

Given the conditions of advanced industrial society, i.e., that we live sedentary lives with minimal toil, it doesn't make a lot of sense to eat meat at the rate we do. Clearly it was necessary for a time in our history, when food wasn't plentiful and easily found, but now that it is, it's hard to ignore the fact that we don't digest meat efficiently, and that it does some harm as well in the way if excess fat, cholestrol, and taking calcium out of your body. Dairy offers so few benefits that there's no real reason to drink it other than for enjoyment.

I've been plant-based for over a year now but I hate most vegans. Most of them are ideologically possesed and are still part of the problem, but think that they're making a difference in the world. However, there are a lot of benefits to eating a largely plant-based diet and having meat every now and then. The fat I had been trying to lose for years practically fell off my body after transitioning to a vegan diet. Really though, everyone has to adopt the diet that works best for them.

>>11299787
>muh synthetic meat
>implying it will solve all our problems
what about people that choose to eat regular meat instead of your synthetic meat?

>>11299845
Ted is also a serial killer who somehow thought waging a one-man war against industrial civilization would bring about its peaceful collapse. No need to take on board his ideas about ethics.

Please ignore the trolls and carnist brainlets.

Is Animal Liberation any good?

>>11299836
Yes, it's easy to genetically engineer bacteria to produce whatever nutrient you need. Rearing pets and so on are a different kind of interaction between animals and people. It's also important to consider that animal suffering can affect the taste of meat.

Why don't vegans fully embrace morality and kill themselves? The requirements of your physicality are imposed on the world no matter how thoughtful you are. Resources will be competed for and used up, nature will be razed for farmland, the government you pay taxes to will bomb children for fun. You can't live with your amenities without causing suffering. If you have children you propagate eternal suffering.

vegies are bad for you, those philosophers/authors had horrible deaths and horrible lives due to bad health.
Meats+fruits is the higher human food.

>>11299562
Vegans are right, im not a vegan myself but honestly you have to be retarded to dissagree. I also smoke about 1 pack og cigs a month, eat junkfood from time to time, and ocassionally drink. Yet, only a retard would claim that any of these are good for me, but i do it disregardless. Thats the problem with humanity and our knowledge. Even though we know global warming is a problem, we chose to ignore it for our own pleasure.

>>11299868
>Yes, it's easy to genetically engineer bacteria to produce whatever nutrient you need.
Source? Genuinely interested and I can't seem to find anything myself. Seems like at least a few hippies would attempt it if this was the case.

>>11299588
>We may have teeth that are made for eating meat, but then shouldn't we as humans be above the primal needs?
We may need to drink water, but then shouldn't we be above the primal needs?

>>11299867
Why do vegans always so focus on the "raising animals involves gross stuff" thing? I'm literally a vegan but not because milk requires someone to stick their hand into a cow's anus, pretty much anything involving animals will require shit like that

>>11299874
65% of the world's grain goes to livestock. It's not farmland that we lack.

>>11299883
Yeah, also vegan and I agree. It's like saying omg did you know that plants are fertilized with poop gross!!

>>11299881
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/bacteria-seeded-with-synthetic-pathways/1010309.article

>>11299874
You might as well ask "why doesn't the US just nuke every country it vaguely has a problem with? If they were serious about defeating their enemies, they would wipe out all threats immediately."

Life is never an all-or-nothing affair. Yes, vegans step on bugs sometimes, but that's not their fault, so to tell them they're being hypocritical for not wanting to intentionally cause suffering because they unintentionally cause suffering makes no sense.

There's also the conception that perhaps life is actually good and worthwhile, despite the fact suffering exists. In fact, it would make sense that trying to reduce suffering and bring joy to this planet could be one of the most fulfilling things you could do in your life.

>>11299754
We don't have teeth to eat meat, and we're not omnivores. We can't digest meat without having to cook it first, to help break it down. We've evolved to better handle eating meat, but we can't completely eat it. We have rough intestines, and meat can get caught into the folds, and will rot there. Also, eating meat has shown to cause diabetes, because of the high animal fat., and can be reversed with a plant-based whole foods diet
https://youtu.be/ktQzM2IA-qU
Also, vegans have been shown to have more protein in their bloodstream.
https://youtu.be/bc4t6BUHZH8

>>11299768
look up the onions industry please. your opinions smack of "I didn't do any research">>11299909
>Also, vegans have been shown to have more protein in their bloodstream.
yeah, that's why they die when they try to do vigorous exercise.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/woman-who-died-climbing-everest-wanted-to-prove-vegans-are-not-weak-a7043431.html

>>11299860
I never said it would solve all out problems you strawmaning fuck. It will slowly get introduced into the system and the process will go down in cost.

Even big corporations benefit from this because maintaining such monumental amount of livestock alive is expensive, not to mention we'll stop destroying the environment with cow farts.

>>11299909
we cant digest cellulose either. dumb vegan.

>>11299751
There a more chickens in the U.S. than there are people in the world. The average chicken eats 1500 calories per day. The U.S. produces, and imports enough food to feed the world easily. Also, cesspools that factory farms have are bigger than football fields, and are poisoning water ways as the bacteria seeps into the ground

>>11299918
something went wrong with this post.
onions

>>11299668
Or you could read Bentham.
>>11299575
So you're saying our teeth, rather than our ratio should determine our actions? >>11299686
I agree with this guy, allthough I have a lot of questions for people who think it's allright to hurt animals if it can be avoided
>>11299713
Being in the capacity to react to a stimulus is not the same as being conscious, having a central nervous system and experiencing pain in a way similiar to humans. While plants may feel, wouldn't you say it's safer to hurt that of which you can't prove they feel pain instead of animals who are proven to feel pain?
>>11299751
Reminder that the largest amounts of deforestation s o y agriculture for animal consumption. Also I think its fairly safe to say the 'collateral damage' for agriculture is likely smaller than the millions of animals raised for slaughter each year.
>>11299758
It is though, regardless of the morons like pic related
>>11299787
Not eating meat is cheaper than eating meat though. Rice, lentils, beans, grain, potatoes tradionally are the food of the poor. Neither is it more impractical than just not eating prepackaged food.

>>11299837
And literally none of ranching or battery caging is the fault of meat-eaters and instead the fault of greedy and unsustainable meat practices. What is your point?

>>11299598
>most
so that means some do not? Why throw the baby out with the bath water? The few people i know with mental illnesses happen to be the most empathetic people i know, so that could have a correlation to veganism

>>11299792
>op asked for moral of vegan diet
>we have meat tearing teeth
>no we don't
>^this guy's off topic

>>11299899
Doesn't seem like they've reached the point of being able to sustain a human on it yet though.

>>11299928
>Being in the capacity to react to a stimulus is not the same as being conscious, having a central nervous system and experiencing pain in a way similiar to humans. While plants may feel, wouldn't you say it's safer to hurt that of which you can't prove they feel pain instead of animals who are proven to feel pain?

Just because it has not been proven does not mean it does not exist.

>Reminder that the largest amounts of deforestation s o y agriculture for animal consumption.

I kind of see your point, but do you expect chicken farmers in southeast asia and shepherds in Iraq to grow fucking kale and beans in their horrid-ass soil?

>>11299883
It's also absurdly cruel and wasteful.

>>11299954
Literally who cares? I bet you think the monkey that took the selfie deserves to be given money.

>>11299918
>onion industry
What about it?

>>11299961
s o y
new filter

>>11299918
Patrick Baboumian vegan activist, and world record holder. One vegan dies from attempting to do something that people die from attempting to do all the time, so it must be bad. Wow are you the second coming Aristotle?

>>11299951
>‘For the production of 1 tonne of natural resveratrol, our method may save about 485 hectare of farmland at its current production level.’

>>11299975
>Wow are you the second coming Aristotle?
yeah, actually. I didn't want to make a big deal about it.

Cont.
>>11299821
Allthough I partially agree, I think that the economic exploitation of animals will always play a role in the bad treatment of animals for dairy or eggs. Im not opposed to keeping your own chickens and eating their eggs for example. >>11299854
I largely agree with this guy.
>>11299867
I enjoyed it, allthough Ive never had a likeable coversation about it.
>>11299874
Why do people set boundaries on ethical behaviour? I get the feeling you know that ehat you are saying is a strawman argument
>>11299879
This guy, I get the feeling most people get that hurting animals kinda sucks but choose to ignore it, just like the fact that smoking is bad etc.. I think it very similar, accept that smoking largely hurts yourself, while eating meat hurts animals. >>11299918
Newsflash: over 300 people have died on Everest, most of them ate meat.

>>11299952
Just because plants lack lack everything that leads to perception in every living thing we can observe doesn't mean they cant feel, no. But it does make it highly unlikely they perceive pain in remotely the same way, which would make them the better choice for consumption I'd say.
I know that some ground just isn't fertile, but since raising animals is way mote water intensive, drought shouldn't be a problem.

>>11299974
Yeah that sounds dope, and any ethical or environmental vegan would certainly be a hypocrite to refuse it once it becomes available to the public. But it isn't yet, is it?

>>11299854
I became plant-based for little under a year now since I had to move out and realized how bullshit expensive and hard to cook meat is. So mine is more of a practical reason than any sort of moral reason. Only animal product I eat now is eggs, only because I grew up on a chicken farm and know how hard those little cocksuckers work to shit out a beautiful protein nugget, and I can't live without baked goods like cookies and muffins.

I feel way healthier and cleaner than when I ate burgers, ribs, and chicken wings every other day. Though I absolutely do miss the taste and texture of meat, when you have the right combination of spices, vegetarian dishes can be just as good. Indian recipes are awesome for that reason, a lot have been eating vegetarian diets for a while now so they know how to cook a damn good meal.

I will say this though, I do NOT envy motherfuckers that cannot eat wheat or gluten at all. I can live without meat perfectly fine, but I'd probably blow my brains out if I couldn't eat wheat.

>>11299954
Shooting an elephant is not raising it, lol

Eating plants is immoral. They can feel pain and talk to each other.

>>11299989
It's already being used in yogurt industry and so on.

Im starting to think of giving up my vegetarianism because no serious impact can be done by boicotting but I'm not sure.
In retrospective I dont feel there's anything wrong with eating animals per se, but it's the conditions in which we do it that is completely undefensible. Plus the overconsumption of meat having negative health and environmental consequences yada yada.

>>11300025
Stop being dense. It's not viable for the average joe to sustain themselves on bacteria based food yet.

>>11300052
average joes are not hypocritical vegans. wealthy insecure leftists are the target market for a bacteria-based diet.

>>11300048
Think of it like this: do you feel like paying for the product of industrial-scale animal abuse?

>>11300058
It's not viable for them either.

>>11299829
reducing the suffering you create to 0 is only possible by killing yourself. can you stop with your insanely retarded bait please?

>>11300071
you're the one conflating living with suffering. personally, i don't think that my life is suffering.

>>11300070
is yogurt with vitamin pills not viable?

>>11300000
>I feel way healthier and cleaner than when I ate burgers, ribs, and chicken wings every other day.

Exactly. I'm not really interested in the moral argument because of how often that turns into a shit-flinging contest, but I know that eating mostly plant-based has changed my life for the better.

You ought to try and find a vegan bakery somewhere. I currently work at one and I'm blown away every day by how delicious our stuff is. Muffins, donuts, even savory stuff like empanadas.

>>11300082
What is yogurt made of

>>11299562
I suppose there's nothing particularly "scientific" to stop people from eating meat. People embrace veganism out of moral platitudes, and truth be told any sort've moral that isn't based out of the basic needs of society, is purely subjective.

However, if you want something more scientific I'll impart you with this: Charles Darwin did extensive research into how animals experience emotion. Pic related. If a dog can show vivid curiosity, can show loyalty/compassion, can show caution, etc, it's not a stretch to imagine it can also feel pain. If a dog has the ability to exert caution, it means that it has self-preservation, which by itself means that the dog has a very simple goal of survival.

Although this is more of a philosophical insight: Schopenhauer argues that suffering is derived from desire. Going along this line of thought, the desire of an animal to survive can very easily lead to it suffering by not reaching it's goal. However, as animals cannot have as complex of a capacity to desire as Humans for obvious reasons, it's also very arguable that animals also don't have as much of a capacity to feel suffering.

Despite all of this, what drove me to embrace veganism was Jain doctrine. The belief that all life is holy, is something I think can be transitioned to any religion. Simply put, the fact that life exists in of itself, regardless of emotion, regardless of a will to live, is beautiful and really a miracle of nature, and I believe taking that away from something for any reason is therefore immoral.

>>11299982
>Im not opposed to keeping your own chickens and eating their eggs for example
it astonhising me every fucking time a vegan say something like this. is so stupid. all your moral goes down with this simple reasoning.

its like the whole sentiment behind veganism is the evil capitalistic industrial dirty world. not the suffering and abuse of animals itself.

>>11300098
bacteria and dairy

>>11300129
From what I remember, vegans abstain from eggs and milk because the conditions that animals are kept under to produce them is such large quantities is scarily similar to slaughterhouses and they're treated very similarly.

If you own your own chicken coop and treat the chickens well, I don't see much of a problem with it.

>>11300133
See why that might be a problem?

>>11300129
It's really quite simple.
I don't want animals to suffer.
To prodcuce the eggs in the store, animals suffer.
To produce the eggs my own chickens are laying, no animals suffer. They're a biological race, which means they don't lay as many eggs and are way less likely to develop wounds from laying too many/ too large eggs. The eggs are not taken from them in stressfull way and they get treated well after they stop being productive and are allowed to live out their lives in comfort.

>>11300069
Yeah but with circulation of money, I feel we have no choice but to indirectly pay for meat consumption with every purchase.

>>11300077
You don't think that your life ever produces any kind of negative impact on any other living being?

>meat eaters in this thread thinking the majority of vegans don't eat meat for ethical reasons
>meat eaters thinking that just because they eat meat, they have a healthy, balanced diet when in reality 99% of them eat pure shit
>meat eaters thinking that personal change somehow prevents large-scale societal change (this is the one I hate the most, and the one that made me give up on communism)
>meat eaters not realising that the preachy vegan stereotype is an ad hominem on par with the angry feminist stereotype, meant to ridicule and silence individuals with legitimate causes and ideas


Now back to the topic:
Pythagoras was vegan, and one of the last chapters in Metamorphoses by Ovid is Pythagoras justifying vegetarianism/veganism.

>>11300172
Wouldn't you say there's a pretty big difference between directly and indirectly paying for something?
Is the fact that money is eventually going to go to animal-agriculture a reason to pay for it yourself and actively participate in it?

>>11300181
Too add to the list of Philosophers speaking about vegetarianism:

The French have already discovered that the blackness of skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may come one day to be recognized, that the number of legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or perhaps, the faculty for discourse?...the question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?

>>11300184
>Wouldn't you say there's a pretty big difference between directly and indirectly paying for something?
practically, no. the economic impact on the animal industry is pretty much zero. The reason to be vegan/vegetarian today is pretty much a theoretical reason. Since your choice is between doing the same thing in a lesser or greater degree (supplying the meat industry), the only good that you can produce is the theoretical good of eventually convincing people in the future of reducing meat intake so that the industry eventually becomes heavily regulated or abolished by law.
Economically boicotting has pretty much zero impact also because of the millions of chinese entering the middle class and eating meat.

>>11300203
So, to be clear: you feel that you not doing something you deem unethical, is not worth it because it has no impact?
How would you feel if I said: "I'm going to buy clothes from a vietnamese producer, whom I know is mistreating his employers, just because it will stay open no matter what I do?"

>>11300222
I think it is worth it though. I am a vegetarian. I'm just kind of troubled by the little impact of it, and that we probaly will not fix the meat industry by adopting plant based diets and need to do something else entirely on top of it.

>>11300233
I get that man, I really do. I was just pointing out that I think buying meat because you can't change the meat-industry through vegetarianism is'nt the best argument.

>>11299909
>We can't digest meat without having to cook it first, to help break it down.
Yes we can.

>>11299882
Eating meat may be a moral matter, drinking water isnt.

>>11300000

Why are so many vegans pro-choice?

>>11299562
I'll keep eating farm raised meat until synthetic meat hits my local grocery store.

>>11300169
>>11300135
if you want to believe that and is ok with you...
if we make clones of cows sedated and they dont feel anything in his life is ok to eating it?. because technically they dont suffer.

"they dont really suffer when we steal his eggs". do you really believe this?.

>>11301059
In my city the vegans wrote some slogans on the floor with chalk. One of them was about how baby chicks are killed in the egg (I think if they are male, i.e. un-reproductive). It blew my mind to think that these same people probably don't give a shit about babies being killed in the womb. That's one thing I have against vegan activists - they seem to be dumb to the true atrocity of our times (abortion).

>>11301059
destroying some cells that would otherwise become a baby is the same thing as having unprotected sex. Why do you wank every day instead of giving a girl your sperm? Babykiller!

>>11300118
>is beautiful and really a miracle of nature, and I believe taking that away from something for any reason is therefore immoral.

you only think is inmoral taking away the "life" from beings somewhat alike to you. is inherent to "life" steal "life"

>>11301530
>unprotected sex
protected sex I mean*

>>11301530
Except the "fetus" is a baby, not "some cells that would otherwise become a baby".

>>11301540
hahaha no buddy. If it was a baby crawling around then it would be murder. We're talking about a bunch of incapable, DEPENDENT cells inside of a woman.

>>11300365
How come? Consuming water you kill and destroy thousends of microorganisms and this is clearly immoral. So stop fucking around with that bottle and stop killing our little brothers in water

>>11301530
I really wish pro-choice people would stop with this incredibly ignorant argument. Sperm and ovum by themselves are not biologically distinct organisms in the state of development. It's only when they meet and form a zygote do they become a distinct organism of the species homo sapiens that is growing. This is why masturbation is not killing a human being while abortion is.

>"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
-Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects

>>11301568
>a quote from somewhere else arguing my case proves my case
Let's take a step back. A human being should be a key term here, because a human being stands on its own. It is an independent life-form which nobody should be obliged to assist in its survival. With foetuses, they're wholly dependent on another person for their survival. Actually, they ARE another person seeing as the umbilical cord connects the two. So we can either say that women aren't people, merely deliverers of male humans, or that foetuses aren't people or both are not people unless the foetus is male and it is born.

>>11301563
>>11301589
yeah cos full term newborn babies are totally independent right?
fucking hell

>>11301589
By your own definition of a human being a 5 year old child should be considered human since he can't survive on its own. I don't give a damn how you philosophical value human beings, I'm talking about biology and biological human beings begin to exist at conception. It is incredibly ignorant to deny it and you make yourself and all pro-choice people look like dumb assholes when you do it. When you talk about masturbation as if it's killing people you're demonstrating your ignorance of elementary school biology.

>"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and the resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."
Bradley M. Patten, Human Embryology, 3rd ed. (New York McGraw Hill, 1968, pg 43.

>"The cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being."
Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2d ed. (Philadelhpia, Penn: W.B. Saunders, 1977), pg 1.

>"The Zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life"
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics (Philadelphia, Penn: W.B. Saunders, 1974), pg 17 (cf 23).

>"That wondrous momen that marks the beginning of life for a new unique individual"
Louis Fridhandler, "Gametogenesis to Implantation," Biology of Gestation, vol. 1, ed N.S. Assau (New York: Academic Press, 1968), pg 76.

>"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition"
E.I. Potter and J.M. Craig, Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3rd ed. (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

>>11301589
i love this mental gymnastics.

>>11301605
no, it's just alright to let them die

Animals owe their life to carnivores. Veganism is life denying. The real question is how to make the meat industry ethical.

>>11301610
>By your own definition of a human being a 5 year old child should[n't] be considered human since he can't survive on its own
dude that's exactly right

>>11301621

>>11299562
The vast majority of vegans return to eating meat. Eating animals does create unnecessary suffering but being vegan creates personal suffering, on the whole people choose, rightly, to cause rather than receive suffering.

animal flesh tastes good. I'm not convinced they're suffering as much as they would be in the wild. The animals don't understand that they're alive, and they don't understand that they're going to die.

>>11299562
I’m vegatarian but only because of problems with the industry. Also I’m Australian and I think we have highest meat intake per captia in the world (citation needed). Too be honest I’ve really just come to enjoying non meat options, and it expanded my horizons greatly in terms of cooking at home and trying new foods. I will never understand why people care about what others eat, however.

>>11301953
Also side bar anyone who doesn’t feed their children meat is a monster

>>11299742

Enjoying food is a pleb filter

>>11301984
just like enjoying bookss.

>>11299813
You are fucking delusional, lass.

>>11299920
people will not buy synthetic meat
it will never have the same qualities as biological meat, as in, it won't taste the same or have the same texture as something that has lived, eaten and walked around for a few years
it just won't catch on

>>11301513
why exactly is it not ok to have free range chicken eggs?

>>11299698
This may hold true for ethically raised animals, animals that have the freedom to perform their natural movements and behaviors and who are fed sufficiently and healthily. However, the majority (~99%) of meat produced and sold in the US is not produced in this way, and the animals have such a nightmarish existence that’s its more or less indistputable that they would be better off not existing at all.

You can make the argument that meat done right is ethical, and I would agree. But most vegans are first and foremost opposing industrial farming, and avoiding meat is the only certain way to not support industrial farms.

>>11301513
I mean if you genetically engineered an animal that can't feel pain or suffer, then there is no utilitarian argument not to eat it and that's the only philosophical argument for veganism afaik

>>11299562

The morality of it is beside the point, animal farming is a major driver of climate change and humanity making the ecosystem unstable. This is fact and it is the main reason I don't eat meat.

>>11302944
And how do you know this, have you ever worked in the meat industry? Most cattle raised to be choice cut are ethically treated and in accordance to government standards, bar a few cases of negligence.

>>11302269
Not the same anon but I believe it will have better taste, texture and marbling as it was engineered to be such.

>>11302807
freedom. rights of animals.

>>11301920
where is the personal suffering in veganism? I'm indifferent to the taste of meat and even if meat was really good tasting the suffering of giving up a luxury is nowhere near the suffering animals go through for the luxury

>>11299562
>Are vegans right?

Probably. Not gonna stop eating meat just to please a bunch of uptight hipsters though.

>>11299562
Of course eating animals is immoral. Notice that those in favor of eating meat have to depend on essentialist conceptions of biology. Otherwise they have no argument.

>>11303378
Goverment standars are shit in the first place and farmers/slaughterhouses often neglect them in the second place. If you think they are raising animals for 'the prime' cut instead of raising them in whatever conditions are most economically profitable you are just dead wrong. The 'prime cut' label you see in the store is just a label, don't be so naïve.
'Rough' treatment of animals is present even in the most qualitative farms.

>t. worked in the meat-industry in a heavily regulated West-European country.

Not a single person I met there had any problems with pigs smothering their young because they couldn't stand any longer and didn't have enough room to lie down next to the piglets. As we were throwing blue-purple piglets with the print of the ironpattern on the floor stamped into them the farmer was complaining that 'this happened every week and it was costing him money, but hey "what can you do if your sows are lazy". That's the day to day reality, not the exception, this didn't cross any regulations and wouldn't be legally punishable as it's labeled 'an accident'.
His meat was being sent of to be used by a prime pork brand in Europe.
In my experience people refuse to believe that, no matter how often practices like this are revealed to the public.

>>11304092
And eating plants isn't immoral? Plants have more sensory organs and computational power than animals.

>>11299845
In what paragraph does he talk about it?

>>11304417
False.

>>11304436
Educate yourself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(physiology)

>>11299588
no you are absolutely right, and that is why veganism is wrong.
transhumanism is a jewish trick.
we are human, accept it, or lose your soul.

>>11303751
nutrient deficiency.

>>11303383
I can't see this myself, how can they 'engineer' how something will grow from stem cells without external factors like diet and physical exertion?
Either way, if you look at the public's attitude to GM crops, imagine how they'll feel about synthetic meats.

>>11304417
No phenomenal experiences of pain though, so irrelevant.

>You vegans will never own leatherbound books

>>11303102
>>11304776

so unironically if we give a little of freedom to cows and anesthetize them before killing them, the vegans dont complain about anything?.


all the vegan stuff is only a somewhat industrial reformist momentum?.

>>11301622
>forced death
>ethical

>>11304776
Wrong. Plants warns other plants when they are eaten and so on. They do feel pain, but it's a different kind of pain from ours.

>>11304664
This is another 'meme'-esque topic, I have no deficiencies. My skin is clear and strong, my sleeping patterns are stable and short although providing me with ample energy for the day. My organs filter out mucus and garbage at exceptional rates in comparison to when I was eating poorly (you can be an unhealthy vegan as well like I started out as, french fries and other deep fried delectables).
Life is easy if you want it to be, it just takes time and focus.

>>11304915
Plants don't have pain receptors you fucking idiot.

>>11304918
>I have no deficiencies
and how do you know that?
meat, fish and eggs provide the best (as in most absorbable by the body) forms of vitamin A, D and B12, as well as the obvious protein and various minerals (zinc, selenium, iron)
i don't deny there are plant sources for these nutrients but they're not nearly as useful to the body as the forms found in animal based foods. I'd argue that those from plant sources are largely not absorbed and are just ejected in the urine, unless a carefully thought out diet involving healthy fats etc is employed. I'd wager most vegans have deficiencies they are not even aware of.

I'd be interested to hear what your diet comprises of, since I don't deny a good balance can be achieved. I just haven't met a single vegan irl who eats anything close to what a Rastafari does. They're too busy trying to make the perfect vegan mac and cheese.

>>11304864
No?

>>11304977
So? Why do you need to have pain receptors to get a phenomenological experience of "something bad is happening to me!"
>And we assume you need ears to hear. But researchers, says Pollan, have played a recording of a caterpillar munching on a leaf to plants — and the plants react. They begin to secrete defensive chemicals — even though the plant isn't really threatened, Pollan says. "It is somehow hearing what is, to it, a terrifying sound of a caterpillar munching on its leaves."
>How plants sense and react is still somewhat unknown. They don't have nerve cells like humans, but they do have a system for sending electrical signals and even produce neurotransmitters, like dopamine, serotonin and other chemicals the human brain uses to send signals.
https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-09/new-research-plant-intelligence-may-forever-change-how-you-think-about-plants

>>11304985
These nutrients are created by your body, why do you think that they are present in the bodies of animals? Our bodies have similar chemical make up in certain categories.
My wife and I recently finally broke through the fruit eating side, we are 80-90% fruit intake, with 4-5 out of a 7 day week being 100% fruit days (excluding avocado). The other 10-20% would be our days that we give-in so to speak by indulging in a rice/vegetable-based dish. We stay away from rice and wheat because they ferment in the body for much too long, which feeds internal parasites. The point of our effort is to clean ourselves as completely as possible.

>>11305037
jesus christ

>>11305037
absolute nonsense. The animals we eat get the nutrients in their bodies from their diets; diets that are no good for us because we are not ruminants.
and your all fruit diet is a complete meme. sure you're helping your liver to 'clean' you out by avoiding 'toxic' food, but in the meantime you're depleting yourself of various vitamins and minerals. enjoy your liquid shits

>>11303455
What? Go ahead and put some chickens in the wild. Seriously, what the fuck are you even talking about?
To give chickens "freedom" is as easy as having free range chickens.

>>11305102
you want minerals? Go eat the dirt off of the ground, enjoy it!

>>11305037
that chart is absolute nonsense

>>11305119

>>11305037
You're a danger to your wife, mouthbreather.

>>11305227
Actually I can sprint and ride my bike at top speed without once opening my mouth friend.

>>11305218
Oh come on he looks hilarious! No problem, I have always liked his hair cut for the lels

>>11299575
and in the future we might not, devolving is a part of evolving

>>11305107
so you are assuming animals (chikens in this case) will always be dependent of humans?

>>11301984
this

>>11304990
i thought the veganism is some kind of intrinsic and radical mindset about the rights of animals to living free without the humans patronizing.
not to say that killing animals is inherently wrong.
maybe i was confused.

>>11305261
no, he's saying a chicken has no more quality of life in the wild than it does living in a paddock.

>>11305284
so the vegans think animals not necessary stay better without humanity?. they think chickens are better (or in the same way) in goodguy farms than in the wild?. this sounds too near to the mindsent of "badguy" farms to me.

>>11305312
this isn't a vegan argument. as far as I know most vegans are against farming altogether. they don't offer an alternative for what we should do with all the animals already in farms, however (though some absolute brainlets in their 'movement' think we should release all the cows into the wild, lol).

>>11299562
why does it matter what other people think what is moral and immoral?

>>11305359
maybe we simply dont know enough about the subject.

>as I know most vegans are against farming altogether. they don't offer an alternative for what we should do with all the animals already in farms,
this is too stupid to be true.

if they shout about the evils of farming and the only solution they have is make a "good and noble farming" but at the same time they prefer scream about the poor pigs and cows and chickens without saying they only want for them a concentration camp or a zoo wasteland, if this is true, this guys are totally fucked up and they dont even know it.

and like i said earlier, if they dont think is inherently wrong killing animals, and all is because "suffering" why thet dont fight for anesthesia in killings and a goodguy farming.

>>11299562
Veganism is pointless on its own merit, plants are alive too. If you can pull it off with price/nutrition where you live, feel free. Most people just end up being starch fatasses or near anorexic.

Factory farms are immoral, if you can avoid supporting them it's good. There's no point in being smug about it though, because you're supporting some atrocity somewhere just by participating in our society at all.

>>11305393
I had a full blown debate with a vegan and a vegetarian about the environmental impact of the meat industry. They were giving me the classic 'if you're capable of reducing your contribution to global warming, why wouldn't you?' schtick. I remained adamant that individual purchase has no impact on reducing the damage caused by the industry, and if anything only increases waste.
in the next conversation, the same person told me they don't recycle because 'the corporations' are just going to pollute anyway. no consistency, absolute brain damage

i dont know why people act like you have to be a vegan to make a difference. americans eat way too much meat, and it's contributing to their own demise as much as that of nature. some meat (namely fish) is nutritious, but red meat is cancerous and has a huge impact on the environment due to methane. amerilards dont really have values or self-control, though, so dont expect them to change.

>>11304664
id agree that veganism is difficult, but not all vegans have vitamin deficiencies. supplements exist. vegetarianism by contrast is actually pretty fucking easy; just take an algae oil supplement for dha/epa.

>>11305254
That's just physical degeneration, nothing to boast about. Same thing as being fat.

>>11305568
supplements are largely useless and end up in the urine.

What do vegans itt think about wild animal suffering?

>>11306119
they can't comprehend that it exists.

Most animals humans consume cant survive in nature and would be extinct without humans consuming them, being consumed by humans is their nature. And nature is just as cruel as human artificial nature.

>>11306119
The loony ones want to engineer earth into a Eden-like biosphere where the animals are all made into vegans too.
>seriously, this is actually the proposed endgoal of some vegans

>>11303751
It causes depression in the long term.

>>11303751
>the suffering animals go through

I'm not convinced animals suffer that much. Certainly they don't suffer as much as animals do in the wild.

>>11305870
there are some supplements that are useful. vitamin D, magnesium, and fish oil are three that everyone should take. the others are generally easy to get in a balanced diet.

>>11299562
porphyry is vegancore

>>11301524
Most vegans are supportive of chicken farms ending chicken culling, and using the chicken embryo for scientific studies. Also, not all vegans go vegan for animal rights, but can go vegan for environmental purposes. Most of the harm done from factory farm is done from the overpopulation of animals. Humans are, also, overpopulated and causing a lot of damage because of it.

>>11304417
When did I say eating plants wasn't immoral? The only exception, the only food you can eat with clear conscious, are basedbeans.

>>11306119
We’ll deal with that in phase 2.

Veganism is absolutely right. We're conscious of our actions and we don't need meat, we just consume it because it's convenient. It is very much comparable to slavery, we use them for convenience and because everyone else does it's easy to detach it from your conscience.

There are animals like elephantsnand dolphins who have been observed to show very real humanlike emotions like sorrow for lost ones, depression etc. Whales commit suicide when their kids die. This proves there isn't a black and white difference between humans and other animals and there's at least a spectrum without one specific line where something's life isn't worth anything anymore.

Just because aninals don't view the world in the same way as we do, it does not mean their experience of life isn't real and meaningful. If aliens with far superior emotional and brainy intelligence came to earth they might think our lives aren't as meaningful as theirs because we don't experience it as they do, just like we do with animals, but you obviously feel human lives are very real indeed. So by eating meat we raise animals in torture and then end them, just for our own selfish reasons.

The meat industry is quite obviously wrong from an ethical stand point and truly cannot be argued against if we assume lives aren't meaningless and murdering humans is wrong. Even if you didn't believe this, just like the nazis and slave owners, you mustn't assert your own believes regarding the meaning of others' lives for them.

However, the world is built upon suffering of others, and unless you live in celibate you cannot be an ethical being, and so becoming a vegan, although right, doesn't do all that much in the whole scheme of ethics as you're still unethical in a multitude of other ways, exploiting poor people builing your stuff, destriying the planet with waste and greenehouse gases.

I believe vegetarianism is a relatively easy way to carve a pretty large chunk of your unethical cake. Veganism however, doesn't remove that much more unethicality compared to vegetarianism, and requires a lot more effort. Thus there are diminishing returns in becoming vegan compared to vegetarian. It's still the right thing to do and you should never mock someone for doing it, but I think it's okay to settle for becoming a vegetarian yourself and spend the extra energy in other ways.

>>11299562
>immoral
That aside vegans are not right since the agrarian life is not sustainable nor is it at all healthy for humans unless you can compensate with loads of supplements
Vegans are weaker and more stupid causing the demise of human excellence

>>11299928
Few animals we consume have been proven to be self aware and conscious
But even if they were so what? The only issue with this is human arrogance in thinking consciousness is sacred and human-like

>>11300181
Hiter was a vegan too
Vegetarianism is just an affect of agricultural civilization, a very harmful one at that which only ever leads to stunted homunculi

I can't wait for the day 10 000 years from now when us cave dwelling meat eating morlocks rise up to eat the dim witted vegans

>>11304985
>I'd argue that those from plant sources are largely not absorbed and are just ejected in the urine

What is your basis for saying that? I have never heard anyone say that before or anything like that.

Also, the majority of people, meat-eaters and vegetarians, have vitamin D deficiencies, but that's not the fault of their diet, it's more that they spend so much time indoors and out of the sun. D deficiency is better than melanoma though

>>11309972
most vitamins require you to eat fats to properly absorb them; meat and eggs come prepared with this. most vegans just eat potatoes, bread and beans.

>>11310047
And a bunch of cooking oil...

>>11310047
Not vitamin B12 or the minerals you mentioned, since they're water soluble. You don't need to eat food at all to absorb B12

>>11309843
>>11309843
>It's still the right thing to do and you should never mock someone for doing it,
say is the right thing to do because ethics.
say only in celibate you can be ethical.
pick one.

I'm a whole foods plant based vegan and I am healthier than the any of you cucks.

I eat oatmeal with frozen berries everyday for breakfast. Then a tomato based stew with lentils, beans and vegetables for my other two meals. I put a tablespoon or two of chia/flax on every meal and I never cook with oil. I try to eat at least 200g of kale/spinach/spring greens a day and I snack on fruit if I'm hungry between meals.

I track everything I eat on cronometer and the only nutrient I occasionally fall short on is calcium. You cunts probably eat 0 vegetables and you sit here talking about vegans being deficient in nutrients.

Also vegetarians are complete retards and dairy causes more suffering than meat does.

>TFW I'm going to live to be 120 and you'll all have dementia from clogged arteries when you're 65

>>11310864
your diet is shit and useless to your body
try feeding a dog nothing but grains and vegetables and see what happens
you're doing to same thing to your own body, only willingly

>>11310937
T. Skinny fat dweeb with awful nutrition who has never excelled at anything in life

>>11310951
nope, i'm lean and muscular, and work out every day, but that's irrelevant.
>who has never excelled at anything in life
this relates to your shitty diet how? eating beans and oats has brought you great success? sounds like you're just reaching.
if you actually ate a decent variety of vegan foods i wouldn't take issue, its just that you're the same 'i eat nothing but fruit, grains and pulses and its given me superhuman strength you guys, i swear!' faggot as always

>>11310973
Imagine being on /lit/ and not being able to read.

Do your parents a favour and kill yourself anon.

>>11310993
sorry, you eat vegetables too. so what? your diet is still lacking. why do you never cook with oil when its literally good for you? because you're a fad diet moron

>>11299787
>>11299860
>destroy the meat industry and replace it with synthetic meat
>natural meat becomes an expensive delicacy
>wealthy eat it as a status symbol and liberals start an organic, natural meat trend
Can’t wait for the rich to destroy the industry then use it to flaunt their status

>>11311005
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptF0KuF8xHU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4WD8Bm7s_I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c90mXRCPGUY

>>11311073
man, that first guy looks real healthy!
i got a clue for you

E X E R C I S E

>>11310937
What exactly do you think is lacking in his diet? He eats vegetables, fruits, seeds full of fats, legumes, berries, and grains. Maybe he could throw some nuts in there, maybe some plant milk to help him with calcium but otherwise it seems like a balanced diet.

>>11311088
That first guy is over 70 years old and he had a massive stroke when he was 18 from bad genetics and eating a crappy diet full of animal products and processed junk. It's amazing that he's lived this long after all that damage, but that's the power of proper nutrition.

Whatever brainlet, it's your funeral not mine.

>>11311113
eggs and fish

>>11311119
>he had a massive stroke when he was 18 from bad genetics
yes

>and eating a crappy diet full of animal products
no

>and processed junk
yes

learn the difference

>>11311122
>eggs and fish
For what nutrients?

>>11311143
vitamin A, D, B2, B5, selenium, omega-3

>>11311163
None of that would be a problem with his current diet except maybe D, depending on how much sun he gets. It's really not a shitty diet.

You know who else was a vegan? Hitler.

>>11311190
he's eating shitty low availability sources of those nutrients
seriously veganism is a complete meme

>>11311221
Believe what you want I guess.

>>11299562

No, but planning meals to be interesting as though they're vegans and then adding meat/fish/dairy ends up getting you interesting food.

>>11305393
/thread

nice pusy

>>11310864
you diet's basic and not that healthy. you should try poppy seeds for calcium, it'll make you fail drug screenings if you're an american but it's one of the better sources of calcium for a vegetarian or vegan. you should do more research and probably stop eating frozen berries if you're going to try to brag.