/lit/ - Literature

>>11034286
Life is essentially what you notice most of if you are fortunate enough to not be trapped in complete poverty or a shitty society. But generally we can’t help but concentrate on the suffering, because we are cursed with the concept of future, consciousness, and intelligence.

But I know that without suffering there would be no happiness. So I suppose you could say that, at least for humans, suffering is our default state.

>>11034286
It's more than suffering is one of the only constants in life. It's extremely difficult to escape it for your entire life. Only by pursuing the way of the master can you overcome suffering and reach the other shore.

completely true. the concept of suffering is the foundation for the human sciences, imho. especially as we move further into a post-secular world.

every great religion deals with the question of suffering in one way or another. the forms by which they deal with it and metaphors they use to describe human consciousness vary greatly and lead to different kinds of organization, but suffering is pretty much the deal - from love, from knowledge, from the body, from the polis, whatever.

>>11034408
>way of the master
huh?

>>11034416
>post-secular world
what did he mean by this?

>>11034527
>post-secular

okay, i'll try to explain. it will be messy.

it came out of reading this essay, but it's essentially just saying feels > reals. with all that that entails, for good or for evil.

http://iasc-culture.org/THR/archives/Commodification/5.2FWard.pdf

and my own intimations as well, that whatever enlightenment sensibilities used to hold up the world to around 1990 or so are now in a state of deep rot, religion is on the rise, and other things. this isn't all bad, mind you. partly it's an effect of the internet and other things, lots of people waking up and realize that they are profoundly interconnected in many ways, planetary capitalism, much else. nobody's really 'outside' the system of things anymore, there are no hard and fast lines to be drawn.

i mean if you're a die-hard positivist and want to shit on all this continentalfaggery, of course, be my guest. people should try to act as logically and clear-headed as they can. but whatever post/modern consciousness is, it's not governed by the old rules we once played by.

or this, maybe much simpler: post-secular means that we have to acknowledge that within all postmodernity is a tacitly theistic core. you have to believe, in a basically religious sense, in something larger than you that is outside of yourself. i don't mean to say this morally but more ontologically. we can't, for the time being, presume a perfectly detached rationality anymore. postmodernism tried to sort of hide this but you can see in how batshit insane it is today, combined with the subject matter, that this simply is a dead-end project. theory becoming inseparable from subjectivity, we find ourselves required to acknowledge something in our thinking that comes from the Big Outside...whatever that is.

i don't know if that makes sense. probably it doesn't. but i'm happy to try and fumble around further if you'd like. it might help me as well.

>>11034585
this sounds very Peterson-esque, Mike. And it makes sense.

if you want, you suffer because you don't always get what you want!

If you don't want anything, you wont' suffer.

>>11034585
>>11034597

It seems that everyone searches for meaning. Some find it in religion, some find it in riches, some find it in community service, some find it in science, but everyone finds it in something. And if you don't, well, you might be a nihilist, You might experience an existential crisis. You might commit suicide. So "the bigger picture" is quite important. Then there are those that don't even think about this concept.

The only people who would want to be religious, are depressed already, and desperate: religion is the pill to solve depression for many, if they can manage to swallow the obtuse ovulur girth

>>11034599
Are you a Cynic or a Stoic?

>>11034597
well, it's not my intention to sound like peterson, but it's definitely no accident that he has appeared at the time that he has and is saying the things that he is.

still tho. i'm glad that it makes sense. that said: Mike? my name isn't mike.

>>11034603
>t seems that everyone searches for meaning. Some find it in religion, some find it in riches, some find it in community service, some find it in science, but everyone finds it in something. And if you don't, well, you might be a nihilist, You might experience an existential crisis. You might commit suicide. So "the bigger picture" is quite important. Then there are those that don't even think about this concept.

yep, that's the deal. nihilism is actually the starting point, not the end goal. so i'm firmly on the need for religious/panpsychic side of things these days for the reasons you have said. good old fashioned existential dread, yeehaw. but diminishingly less complaining about capitalism and more about virtue. it took me a while to get here but feels good man now.
>until i go outside
>then i need a drink

>>11034286
do you believe in karma, anon?

>>11034603
Nihilism just boils down to “everything is stupid and nothing matters.” You couldn’t have a more childish perspective and anything expounding or supporting it is YA. This is why Nietzsche was such an old faggot, although this is hard for me to write because I loved him at one point while I was employed at a screw manufacturing plant. But i’ve outgrown that. Now i walk out of my house, look up at the sky, and remember that I’m lucky in a way that many people aren’t, and with the experience I have I can shape young minds in France, which is where I currently reside. Find something you believe in anon and then dive or dig into it with all the selfess love in the world. Only then will you find meaning.

>>11034624
just our of curiosity, have you taken any hallucinogenics?

>>11034638
I'm not sure I understand your question other-anon

>>11034644
I agree. I think the process goes something like this: Bliss>Nihilism>Meaning, but it takes a lot of work for those cognizant and incisive enough to go through it.

>>11034657
yup. many.

i read pic rel at an impressionable age and made a solemn vow that when i got to uni i was going to check those boxes. but it wasn't only him, it was all of those movies i saw where the hero's enlightenment is also helped along by some form of shamanic or psychedelic experience, and almost always for the good. so i had a very positive outlook on all of it going in and generally speaking much of that was confirmed.

i don't do that stuff anymore tho. just reading and thinking philosophy had plenty enough fun going on for it. sometimes too much, in fact, especially in the current era of the rage virus. but it's why i was interested in your question because i think it's actually really germane and important. for all of our justifiable concern with microaggression there's another aspect, suffering, which has gone missing, and it's pretty important. and it is, as that ward essay indicates, not something reducible to economics, nor does economic thinking in turn have a monopoly on concepts better thought in a more religious sense, like debt and repayment. pretty cool stuff.

hey >>11034663,
>>11034638 is me. i should have just put this in th body of another post.

>>11034697
I "got into" HST after seeing Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (great movie), which is based on his book I believe. I ordered one of his books (a compilation of his letters) afterward. He has a knack for writing, though I haven't yet finished the book. He seems like a really cool guy.

I want to try more hallucinogenics. I'm pretty well-read, and I've seen hallucinogenics as a supplemental medication on the path to enlightenment; the only reason I smoke weed is to break down the barriers of sobriety so I can see where I am fucking up, and I do this a few times a year. Otherwise I don't smoke. And honestly, I'm scared to do anything stronger like shrooms because I'm afraid to face my demons, so to speak.

>not something reducible to economics, nor does economic thinking in turn have a monopoly on concepts better thought in a more religious sense, like debt and repayment.

Mind elaborating on this?

>>11034727
>hallucinogenics

well, i was really enthusiastic, that's for sure. but i was also fortunate to have really good friends and all the other intangibles that matter. so i really tried to be as open-minded as i could. in the end i actually found shrooms were the most unpredictable of all and quite frankly my least favorite of things. but tastes vary. in the end it was all quite wonderful tho.

>economics/religion

i mean ward makes the case quite well, but you can read him on that.

basically the main concept is libidinal economics. baudrillard, deleuze, land, girard, heidegger, bataille...lots and lots of other guys...the economy isn't a purely discrete and material phenomenon. it runs on feelings, in the end. and this is really to my mind where a kind of paradigm shift in our thinking is required, for lots of reasons. i'll give you one example: facebook. the thing is, without getting too political, that it's possible that we have begun to create new model economies that run on psychological processes unlike what we have seen before. facebook is just a transmitter, ultimately, but it's also so much more. so is google. or monetized YouTube clips (that in turn threaten media hegemony). and other things. money makes things real, but it can only sort of catch up on what people are paying attention to, which is...what other people are paying attention to...and so on and so on. it's a highly mimetic world like this, and the universities no longer have any kind of high ground to comment on it. for better and for worse.

the SPLC's war on maajid nawaz is another example. it's possible that we can simply grow *phobic* microeconomies based on the need for reparations for things that are *social* crimes but not actual crimes. but where money begins changing hands, does it really matter? not really, right? hence the popularity of bitcoin and things like this, cryptocurrencies totally unbound from even the *ghost* of the gold standard. it's a new world.

and all of this runs on the consumer economy, but we aren't even consuming products, we're consuming...feelings, moods, memes, performances, things opened up by new media technology, but as much of it reactive as active. a completely unbound deleuzian weirdness. or landian. but to my mind it's the sign of an enormous loneliness, also, and a serious question about what it means to be human. will smith even said this the other day: we are becoming *addicted to pain.* that's really fucked up, but it's true. pain attracts eyeballs.

and even if it does make money, it's a death-spin. so i think it's a good idea not to think of what actually moves the economy - psyche - in these nu-materialist ways, but as much more holistic and integrative processes. and in need of more than just reciprocity, but serious understanding.

Not at all. Life is a scrambling desperate struggle, but it is also exhilarating and fun. Miserable sadsacks deserve the world they get.

>>11034727
If you ever do decide to ingest psilocybin mushrooms, make sure you take a sufficient dose. That would be at least 5 dried grams ingested after 6 or more hours of fasting. Make sure you do it in an environment in which you will not be interrupted. If you must have another person there to hold your hand, try not to get too distracted by their presence and focus on the experience with intent. If you don't want to trust some stranger with providing such mushrooms, grow your own. Cubensis spores are easy to come by.

>>11034759
>[mu]shrooms were the most unpredictable
That is an uncommon opinion for a good reason. You must not have tried that wide of a variety of hallucinogens.

>>11034771
isn't it extremely unsafe to do this alone?

>>11034759
you've given me a lot to think about. I'm going to ponder on it while I fall asleep. Thanks. Good night!

>>11034286
In a sense yes, it’s true. Just try not to think about it. There’s no solution at all, just denial. Follow the example of Jews.

Sounds like a convenient narrative to teach your subjects.

>>11034787
lol

>>11034778
Not him but my first time I did it alone and had the best experience of my life

>>11034776
it probably is. but it was enough to cover the bases and believe the hype. and one or two times with mushrooms when i just went over my threshold. not so much fun as with other things. but i'm not exactly super-robust either, and i don't really need a whole lot of anything to have a good experience. same with alcohol.

>>11034784
cheers m8, thanks for the cool conversation. be well.

>>11034778
Not at all. Mushrooms are physiologically harmless, so you have nothing to worry about regarding that (and this is very comforting during a trip). The most cathartic part of any psychedelic experience is overcoming any fear and diving deep into the experience. Like I said in my post, a sober person present to hold your hand can be comforting, but you will only scratch the surface of the potential of the experience. Ultimately it is your choice, but don't trust what the alarmists and scaremongers say as fact. "Bad trips" (if they exist) are so rare they are not worth even thinking about. If you have a comfortable environment where you will not be interrupted, then you will have a positive experience.

>>11034811
>physiologically harmless
isn't it possible for partakers to experience a different reality while tripping and harm themselves though (say, jumping off a third floor balcony through hallucinating)?

>>11034778
Mushrooms is just a mild food poisoning if I'm not mistaken. Nothing your body can't handle at all. The worst thing that ever happened to me on shrooms was that I fainted, yet that was because I was chain smoking (10+ in a couple hours) when I normally smoke very inhibitedly (2 a day). I say it was the worst because when I came-to, it was psychologically very frightening that that had happened, I knew it was coming right before it hit me and I blacked out, it was like a premonition of death, and so the whole time afterward I just had a terrible paranoia I might actually die or something. In retrospect it was nothing, it's just that mushrooms give you super heightened emotional/psychological responses, such that I was overreacting despite my knowing better that nothing bad would ultimately come of it.

Personally I've been thinking of doing mushrooms and trying to read Genesis or Revelations. It would be arduous and I'd be infinitely distracted by my own breathing or time dilation or something, but if I could actually get into it I think it would be a phenomenal experience.

>>11034286

>life is predicated of suffering.


have fun unpacking that my unread anons

>>11034809

do you have any recommended books to dive into philosophy? you seem pretty wellread on the topic which is why i'm asking

>>11034837
>Mushrooms is just a mild food poisoning if I'm not mistaken

???

>>11034837
>Mushrooms

Stopped reading

>>11034827
That isn't what physiologically harmless refers to. It means the mushrooms cannot harm your body as a reaction to being ingested, but I still see your point. Mushrooms (and other hallucinogens arguably with the exception of strong dissociatives like salvia divinorum) do not put you into a state in which you have no control. Fear of death is just as strong during a trip as sober (if not stronger), so as long as you aren't already suicidal you will not have a problem. You are more likely to fall off a balcony drunk than throw yourself off during a trip. If the idea really bothers you, then you can somehow temporarily seal shut doors to the balcony and windows, though that is probably not necessary.

>>11034837
>it would be a phenomenal experience.
Stopped reading there.

>>11034860
I'm extremely afraid of having something like this happen (30 seconds in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PfW41bX-4

>>11034846
sure. it kind of depends on what you're interested in. and note also that my main area of interest is mostly late-19C/20C postmodern stuff, marx and everything after. but i can recommend a couple of good books.

the first is pic rel, which is a pretty great one-volume survey designed for the general reader. it will familiarize you with a lot of big names and is written in a very accessible style. you will get a sense for all of the ups and downs of the whole thing, from plato to NATO.

a second good one would be jacques barzun's book, From Dawn to Decadence. it's western philosophy only from the 15C to 20C. starts with martin luther, ends with bill clinton, but it's a really excellent book written by a master. again, general survey stuff, but gives you a sense of scope for the big picture.

the third one is a little bit more specific. it's called heidegger's encounter with modernity, by michael zimmermann. i recommend this one a lot not only because i'm a big heidegger fan, but also because heidegger is a megabrain thinking at arguably the most crucial decade of the 20C, and one that has affected all subsequent thinkers. really, really important to understand heidegger and also the milieu that produced him, as well as europe, really. it's also good if you want to understand heidegger himself without reading his often difficult own books (but you should read those too, of course).

so those are three pretty solid ones. but if you have more specific interests or other questions i'lll be happy to share what i can. just not tonight, as it's getting late over here.

Obviously if you're a 'tortured soul' type with long, uncut hair, and smoke weed all day, you'll love philosophy. 'Life is suffering maaaaan'.

Actually these types hate weed, nevermind, they don't touch it because they were always losers no matter what. They were never exposed to weed and they like to pretend that everyone who reads philosophy is a loser like they are.

Leave real philosophy for the people who don't even give a fuck about that stuff, who are just awesome by the sheer innate capacity of being.

>>11034881
sorry, not encounter, confrontation. duh. in case you wanted to find it on libgen. here's the cover.

>>11034837
>mushrooms and...
Stop there. On a sufficient dose of mushrooms, the experience itself should take all of your focus so you can really dig deep. Planning distractions during for a trip is like planning to play games on your phone while sky diving; somewhat of a waste of the experience and will only exaggerate any fear you have as you are refusing to confront it. If you just want to take mushrooms to feel high and not actually trip, take a smaller dose (like a gram) and smoke some weed and then do whatever, but do not expect any sort of profound revelations.

>>11034885
I can't tell if this post is sarcastic or just retarded

>>11034896
I think I hit a little close to home with that one, huh?

>>11034900
if you're implying I'm a hippy or a straight edge, you're completely wrong. I'm very well-read in philosophy but your cryptic posts are not helpful.

>>11034896
both, actually

>>11034913
>>11034923
SEETHING

>I associate with nerds who read philosophy
Why are you even on /lit/

>>11034878
That video is hilarious, what are you scared of?
The guy wasn't harmed and probably had a great time too throughout. This is a prime example of why you must trip in an environment in which it is impossible (with lots of emphasis on impossible) to be interrupted. This guy did not appear to be self destructive in any way, if he was alone and the trip was played out without such a terrible interruption, he could have potentially had a profoundly positive psychedelic experience (which he probably still had).

The trip itself from the perspective of an uneducated and sober individual walking in without context is obviously very strange, but nothing strange at all to someone familiar with mushrooms. Strange vocalized monologues and peculiar behaviors (like uncoordinated and unconventional dancing) are par for the course, the real experience (and the meat of the trip) is the thing you see when you close your eyes and witness the unfolding profound and indescribable visions on the back of your eyelids (or deep in your mind or however you want to describe it). Basically, don't worry about that video, that will not happen if you prepare your environment before you start your trip.

>>11034286
Our bodies have evolved specifically to detect and experience discomfort. It's the core of our self-preservation instinct. You learned to feel pain before anything else. Life is only what we can perceive, and the majority of what we perceive is discomfort.

>>11034928
No one knows what the fuck you are talking about you autist.

>>11034948
thanks for the insight friend. Much appreciated.

>>11034970
Also I looked through the comments on that video and apparently that guy did an interview with Daniel Tosh about that specific incident. I'm watching it now and it is pretty entertaining and adds much needed context to the video.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/t0e760/tosh-0-web-intervention---guy-on-shrooms---uncensored

>>11034286

I feel like you don't need a book to tell you this

>>11034964
You're a nerd.

>>11034983
wow that's interesting. guess that cop really fucked him up. thanks.

>>11034878
>ALL THE MEAT I'VE EATEN, I FORGIVE MYSELF
>I'M FUCKING SERIOUS *incomprehensible chanting* I LOVE YOU GUYS THOUGH

TOP KEK at this video, guy is perfectly fine too so I don't feel bad laughing.

>>11035023
these responses are making me feel so much safer about taking shrooms. Thanks guys.

>>11035057
Just make sure you know exactly what you are getting from a trusted source. Also (and this is often overlooked for whatever reason), buy a scale! Measuring out a sufficient dose exactly is very important; eyeballing it is not good enough.

>>11034888

thanks man (:

>>11034852
>Foodborne illness (also foodborne disease and colloquially referred to as food poisoning) is any illness resulting from the food spoilage of contaminated food, pathogenic bacteria, viruses, or parasites that contaminate food, as well as toxins such as poisonous mushrooms and various species of beans that have not been boiled for at least 10 minutes.

>>11034286
The definition of suffering discussed by antifrustrationists and antinatlists is very broad. Basically it's creating any need at all. Having to wipe your ass is suffering, eating is suffering, having to change lanes is suffering.

There is the classical definition, or the popular ones, like having wood screws put through your testicles while someone shoves a piece of hot wire up your urethra, then having the damage nursed while they crack your teeth every day, one-by-one, with a tackhammer, only to perform the genital torture again once health has been restored to that area.