/lit/ - Literature

>>10968991
It may be too late for /lit/ to care about such things.

>an alloy of feigned profundity and cliche followed by 4 extended quotes

great idea for a thread

In 250 years they will etch OP in stone... the beginning of the Great Discussion of the Great New Idea of the New Phase In Time in Which We the Present Population Find Ourselves: A Predicament which Calls for Seriousness but Also (Surprise!) Celebration.

>>10969069
Your criticism is fair enough. Perhaps this thread is a touch bombastic.

Nonetheless, the first four sentences are not meant to be profound, but to summarize the four following quotes, which in my biased opinion, follow each other logically.

Isn’t it self evident that the old order has faded (i.e. the age of European man) and a new one is emerging to take its place? Granted this process is generational. Multiple threads are unraveling (Old Europe / Traditional Christianity) while other continue to spin (Bourgeoise / Liberalism) - though I’m not certain how much longer.

The point is, if we are witnessing the formation of a new age, we need to ask ourselves what kind of world will be created, and if we should be a part of that process.

>>10969128

I'm guessing you're about 20 years old, are genuinely more thoughtful and curious than most of your piers, and that you've spent the last 5 years developing ideas about the world that help shed light on how you should pursue your life.

You've probably had the sensation of having your mind blown by reading. You want to share that with others. You gravitate towards things that are interesting and consequential, ideas which are sexy.

Nothing wrong with that at all. Keep doing your thing. I'm 27 so I have a longer view.

The internet is dangerous and you have to keep a cool, deeply self-critical angle. Never let yourself think you know more than you do. While you talk with your peers, never forget that you're a big fish in a little pond, not a genius. And always remember that nobody finds what you read as interesting as you do.

That's all I got for you bud, I get no joy out of being mean to people.

>>10969150
What is this long view that you speak of?

>>10968991
Kundera sounds like a tard here. Tolerance is not the highest ideal in "democracy." Democracy is a decision making process. He MAY be referring to tolerance being a virtue among leftists in America and Europe. But those types of simpletons are a farce: they are tolerant and "respectful" of the Other to the point of allowing intolerance, and to the breaking of the law. Witness the California legislature and local governments actively disrupting federal law by warning and hiding illegal immigrants in their districts -- potential voters, all, due to lack of voter id law. Or the complete breakdown of political discussion today: if one is not part of the Right Team, they are the enemy.

Anyway. To answer your question there's a couple ways it could go down. Either political unrest continues until civil war, or corporations step in and bail out the government in exchange for the people's souls. We're already halfway there. Google and Apple watch everything you say.

>>10969195

I went through the process of

1. slowly realizing I knew almost nothing after many years of thinking I knew everything

2. slowly building habits to try and gain actual (book-reading) knowledge instead of trivia, quotes, Wikipedia and Youtube lectures.

3. realizing how difficult and hard-earned knowledge actually is, and how few people have it

4. realizing that knowledge doesn't make you superior, it just signifies that you went through a learning process (for whatever reason).

5. realizing that ideas matter and that ideas change how we live and who we are, and that they must be taken seriously but that they must not be considered the point of life itself.

6. realizing that the ideas I possess are historically and culturally contingent (I encountered them because of the circumstances of my birth)

I'm sure there's much more to it than that but these are some of the things that come to mind. Basically I take ideas as seriously as life itself. Most everyone else seems to be using knowledge as a personality feature they pepper and salt on the character they play in life; a little "pizzazz" to stick out from the crowd; a thing that lets you have something interesting to say at a party.

I was that way once too. It is a long way I've come.

>>10969150
>Never let yourself think you know more than you do.
After psychcopping a ghost in the shell.

>>10969150
>I'm 27 so I have a longer view.
jesus christ could anyone have been more pompous, self-serious and unintentionally hilarious at the same time. your posts are nothing. blah blah blah, nothing interesting. if you get no joy out of being mean to people then just shut the fuck up until you have something to say.

>>10969225
> Tolerance is not the highest ideal in "democracy." Democracy is a decision making process.
A decision making process which is validated by the implicit good in tolerating the opinions of others even in opposition to your own.

>>10969238

I've heard the "you're being pompous" thing a billion times dude, I'm pretty numb to it.

I wish we lived in a universe where everything was funny but we live in a universe where some things are funny and some things are heart-breakingly sad.

Perhaps humor exists only in cases where suffering exists, I don't know. But the fabric of the world is what it is. You can pretend to exist in a world without suffering but you'll have only so much luck. And then you'll suffer for it too.

>>10969253
nice try but read it in context
>Politics involving the democratic ideal, the principle of tolerance? But if that tolerance no longer has any rich creativity or any powerful thought to protect

>implying democratic tolerance protects ideas/creativity
His idea of tolerance is not the unifying force you speak of. He's a brainwashed European, of noble ideals like the California legislature I mentioned. The kind that tolerates only as long as you agree with their pronouncements.

I should add: as long as you agree with their pronouncements, or are of a designated victim class who "needs their protection."

>>10969269
>Reddit spacing
Kindly fuck off back.

>>10969304

you had a chance to engage another lost human soul floating in the cosmos and you went with memeing instead

that tendency accounts for everything that's wrong with the internet

>>10969304
No way a Petersonfag would be from reddit.

>>10969311
i'm not him, i'm the other guy who called you pompous and was trying not to give you any more (You)s. i'm making this post to point out that you really have contributed nothing to this thread but sadfag wistfulness and purple prose ad hominems. seriously, just fuck off.

>>10969321

I'm not into Jordan Peterson and I worry about what his meteoric rise to internet guru means for Americans (and people) in general.

I have deliberately avoided naming my influences because I wanted to abstract my advice from them. However I also recognize that this is disingenuous because my sense of self-development is heavily influenced by my influences.

If I could recommend a writer to anyone it would be Dorothy Day.

I don't want to have something cool to say at a party (like Jordan Peterson's fans). I want to live right. My God, I want to live right. It stings my soul every day I don't know how to.

>>10969311
there's no such thing as souls and you're no more lost than anyone else. stop pitying yourself and do something productive.

>>10969334

>stop pitying yourself and do something productive

This is pretty much never bad advice, thank you.

*advice ignored and forgotten*

>>10969331
>petersonfags
>getting invited to parties

If you're into that creepy fuck it's because no one ever invited you anywhere

>>10969228
I cant disagree with your points. These are a natural byproduct of maturity.

However, I cannot see how posing a question about the future of the international political order is somehow pretentious or misguided? This is a topic that has obsessed some of our civilizations most esteemed thinkers. I’m not claiming to have an answer. My only purpose was to pose the question by using esteemed thinkers to forward my cause.

Unironically it’s going to be the postmodern ideas of choosing your own narrative, and meta knowledge of symbols archetypes n shiet will proliferate. But ultimately people will return to The Church. Just like Plato’s ideas influenced the bible, Aristotle inspired the evolution of the European Church, and modernism infected the prots, so too will the Church eventually embrace the concept of narratives coming from human nature, and analysis of narratives providing greater knowledge.

Peterson is attempting this, but selling the transcendental requires faith, which he lacked from the start and is too entrenched to gain. A steelman of his analysis of genesis should give you an idea of how the future intellectual landscape will look(but it will hopefully be less retarded).

I can fap to this painting.

>>10969269
You may say something that's not completely retarded, but your style is horrific. Maybe you learned that at reddit, or maybe you just lack the humility necessary to actually lower the amount of yourself being up your own ass in your writings.

>>10969128
don't be so desperate to discuss that you validate a kike troll

>>10969150
kike, brainless kike

OP made a good thread, rare

>>10968991
>In the Middle Ages, European unit rested on the common religion.
What a meme.

>>10969758
It rested on who had the most burly dudes in armour hitting people with swords n shiet

>>10969229
lol is that that video where that kid vlogs about going to a brony convention with his obese dad?

>>10969563
>so too will the Church eventually embrace the concept of narratives coming from human nature, and analysis of narratives providing greater knowledge.

I will commit suicide if this happens

>>10969852
Oh pls go ahead no one will miss you. And it will happen whether you like it or not you little petulant butthurt spoiled brat

the old world of bouguereau paintings has died...

>>10969672
>>10969886
Exactly, painting and art in general is a reflection of this epochal shift.

As our friend Kundera said, “...tolerance no longer has any rich creativity or any powerful thought to protect, will it not become empty and useless.” It seems that at some point this trend in art (like it politics) will run its course. It succeds in the act of tearing down, but struggles to build anew.

wait a minute is this sub filled with pseuds?

>>10969069
I don't see it that way at all it's a pretty important topic to discuss, is there any reason we just shouldn't discuss it? Because if there is you haven't touched on it at all.
>>10969128
Your thread is fine, and the first sentences aren't bad or pretentious. This topic is important and I admire your approach.

>>10969563
>But ultimately people will return to The Church.
ayylmao, so Spengler was right again?

>>10969610
The only true philosopher ITT.
Diogenes wins again.

>>10969069
BTFO
op go back to r*ddit

>>10971265
As others have said in recent threads, the present dogma of so-called liberal humanism, which some claim is a natural evolution of Christianity, is serving as an antidote to the nihilism wrought by the death of god. Those that adhere to this belief are men that believe in a future beyond the moon.

If we lose faith in this sort of rationalism, that is, the belief that through reason we can conquer, or a least know the nature universe, what could possibly follow? Some could argue that it will be at this point that true nihilism will inundate mankind. I am of the view that while some have been affected by the loss of faith, society in general has not yet moved into a state of utter despair.

If man ever loses faith in his own ability, would a return to a more traditional, perhaps mystical faith be possible? Maybe. But wouldn’t this reversion be nothing more than a retreat, akin to the end of the classical age? Certain scholars have argued for a sort of restraining force to hold back the hubris of man. This idea of traditionalism is a compelling one - many on this board adhere to it. Yet I can’t help but imagine that this model, unlike the more common linear or cyclical conceptions of history, could look more like a bell curve, a progression that descends inevitably into barbarism.

However, from another angle this sort future appears to be a mere period of postponement. Man has an inherent drive to become divine - the tree of life still eludes us. Even if we were to retreat from the precipice where we now find ourselves, would future generations strive to return this place? Didn’t the Renaissance scholars aim to replicate the greatness of antiquity? If this Promethean urge is inevitable, how do we reckon with it? Are we damned to depravity or is it possible overcome this condition?

>>10972549
But tradition doesn’t mean ludditism. The fruits of antiquity survived he Middle Ages only due to the scholastics, and it was secular culture which lost touch with progress.

>>10968991
>m-muh religious culture romanticism
>societal collapse narrative
>f-fucking liberalism caused this
Ah yes, fine european 'discourse'

>>10969150
peers*

retard

>>10969150
omg r u jordan peterson?

>>10973000
>memes
>greentext
>vulgarisms

ah, 4chan discourse

>>10970598
ya lmao

>>10973076
>dis post make brain hurty
>hurr I'll just copy the format of the original post but flip it around
>that'll prove I'm an aloof and sophisticated intellectual
>*snickers to self*
Ah yes, an autistic response

>>10973088

>>10973093
>i mak him reddit jok
>i show him

>>10973097
omg u just nae nae'd me epic style xd

https://youtu.be/CcVCdwH4Wv4

>>10969228
I don't think this really applies to the OP (its just four lines dude), but this are solid realizations and ones I am currently in the process of making. I remember thinking I was some luminary because I read Plotinus. But the more you get into philosophy, more you realize what an enormous abyss there is between the average normie and genius

>>10972950
The post was meant to touch upon two different paths for mankind. In no way did I advocate Ludditism (or any ideology for that matter). I’m merely asking questions to stimulate anon’s hive mind.

>>10973097
i laff

>>10969055
Unfortunately, that is very true.

>>10968991
>>10969563
>>10972549
I'm interested in pursuing this further. If you want to discuss this somewhere off this website, send me an e-mail at: totallynotanalt94@gmail.com.

>>10969069
man. the level of nihilism/cynicism here is impressive. this is not a dis btw. just amazing how much of the discussion about our search for meaning we've internalized while still being unable to supply an answer.

>>10969128
the world is in constant flux. it's not that the old order is fading. it's just evolving. often old beliefs don't go away but are rather internalized and sublimated, and they come out, "manifest", in a different form (sometimes as their opposites, or other reactionary forms).

I agree with you that liberalism is a problem. It's a dead end.

I think what we need is a jump in consciousness so that we start thinking not as nations or subcultures but as a self-aware species. This is stupidly difficult and if it happens it will be a fucking miracle, but hey, it's possible.

Part of the problem is that we don't have any belief system that's strong enough to sustain us, the way the Big Religions of the past sustained the spiritual lives of the civilizations they birthed or that adopted them.

Humans need something to believe in. Atheism is not enough. A new goal, a new "god" must be set for humanity. It can be anything as long as it unifies enough of the human population to change the course of the species history.

Anyone got any ideas?

>>10969069
(And Why This Is A Good Thing)

>>10969150
lol

>>10974915
Belief in our technological prowess may be the most effective “god” we have at the moment. This is the only thing promising man deliverance from his natural condition.

Any other god, at least one that has efficacy, would require a genuine belief in the supernatural.

>>10969425
>haha you being antisocial makes me win the arguement

>>10968991
>But to what and to whom?
To the informational epoch.

Where is this "Old Europe" supposed to be? It already unraveled in the 19th century and was thoroughly buried in World War One. These quotes all seem to lament a dying civilization, but haven't we been living a wholly new tradition for at least several decades? We hardly have anything in common with traditional ways of life.
I'm not a conservative, so I'm probably not the right person to dicuss these narratives, but it seems to me that first-world malaise and nihilism stems from fairly objective, socio-economic reasons - the lack of any collective social aim to strive for in opposition to global neoliberalism, and the inability to even formulate one in the decaying political processes of the day. The contemporary youth is nihilistic because they're not complete idiots and know that they don't have much to hope for, except surviving until the next crisis and jumping from one temporary employment to the next, hardly daring to hope for a comfortable retirement. The conditions don't appear to be getting better, and there are good reasons to suspect they will get worse, again, due to fairly commonly understood social easons, and not due to some death of the Noble European, which has been dead for more than a century.

>>10968991
We're heading towards the fully globalized era. All of the thinkers you posted are somewhat eurocentric.

>>10968991
SMT: Nocturne was a really good game, I think I will play through it again. Thanks OP.

>>10976989
>>10976997

You are right, “Old Europe” has all but unraveled completely. Though I do believe the process, which began somewhere near the end of the 19th century, has been taking place gradually. It seems to me that today we are seeing the last flickers of light emanating from the cabin as the ship sinks into the sea.

Could the post-war era, that is the age of American supremecy, be seen as a midwife to the world to come? To be fair, For does America not embody the legacy of Old Europe while simultaneously forging the globalized world of the future? But what is this impulse based on? Is our friend Hegel correct when he says that the state is the realization, the divine idea, embodied by the world spirit? Is the idea of a world-state the ultimate pursuit of drive to “move forward”?

You are right, these thinkers are all Eurocentric. But, I don’t read them as simply bemoaning the end of an age (though they may be nostalgic). It’s an open question mark - they are asking where do we go from here now that the our old idols are gone.

Is anyone here familiar with non-western thinkers that have delved into this topic?

>>10968991
God I hate you niggers who babble about some esoteric shit like this. What we're experiencing is late-stage capitalism and maybe it will go to accelerationism soon. But at the end of the day there will be a return to ecclesiastical government, it's inevitable.

>>10968991
>Meet the new boss!

>SAME AS THE OLD BOSS

>>10968991
Absolute rubbish. Watch out, if you keep going like this you might become an "intellectual"