/lit/ - Literature

>>10970043
Chesterton - Orthodoxy

>>10970043
>healthier life
>a sect of somatophobes

>>10970050
>religion that prays using the bodily remains of its heroes
>somatophobic

>>10970062
you've been duped
they use dowr

>>10970062
Yes, they have a certain necrophiliac predilection.
It doesn't make them less somatophobic, on the contrary.

>>10970043
You start with a pursuit of hedonism based off of idealised notions of the faith. You then read some pleasant devotional literature and start attending a church where the people are welcoming and friendly, then 8 months down the line the novelty wears off you though you try and convince yourself you realise that you dont genuinely believe it and have to chose between lying to the people you have made friends with or moving on.

t.ex cultural theist.

>>10970096
how are you feeling nowadays?

>>10970096
This. In the end I could not reconcile their loving exterior with their notion of eternal damnation.

>>10970043
Christianity won't help you man. It's just another phase, another ideology.

Only when you are tired of all ideologies, Religions etc then you can find real help

>>10970047
fpbp

>>10970043
Good for you anon. I wish you well in your search for God. Get a copy of the Bible and start reading. New Revised Standard Version is aces, but King James Version or New International Version will do. Start reading. You can skip the begats. When you're bored of Old Testament chronicles, you can skip to the New Testament and read the life of Jesus already. Pay attention to the philosophy he is laying out, how it stood apart from the eye-for-an-eye laws of the Jewish people.

Find a local church and attend a Mass. Practice the prayers beforehand if you want, or just respectfully remain silent and listen to the congregation. You won't have faith at first. You won't believe at first, and the prayers will seem empty. But as you study and your understanding grows so will your faith. After a few times at church, you may want to talk to a priest about how to become a Catholic.

I can't speak for other denominations since I'm not one of them but Protestants are basically Catholic heretics, and non-denominational churches are feel-good self-help books compared to Catholicism's real philosophy.

>>10970123
He said he want to be Christian not Catholic.
I guess Orthodox suits him better.

>>10970096
Don't listen OP. I successfully converted.

>>10970110
If it makes you feel better anon, read this piece from the catechism of the Catholic Church:
>1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Specifically the last part:
>God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
It's no surprise they don't like to broadcast it, but I believe this would be true of an infinite (and infinitely merciful) God. Even those who have not been baptised are eligible to return to God. That is to say, it is entirely possible that Hell is empty.

>>10970123
>Starting with conclusions as a given and abusing logic to prove they are true
>Real philosophy

>>10970131
Catholics ARE Christians, ya big dummy.

>>10970043
>Where to start?
Be conceived and born and baptized as a Christian in a Christian environment - like I did. I've always been suspicious of cultural tourists. Well I see, you like the outlook, the architecture, the rituals, and that's all? Good for you, but why do you insist on declaring yourself X or Y in the first place? Maybe you're an atheist or a spiritual person without any particular religion, and that's perfectly fine?

>>10970149
How long ago?

>>10970155
they WERE, before 1054.
Sorry, bro, nothing personal.

>>10970159
Seven months

>>10970163
>implying Orthodox are the only Christians
stop being a gatekeeping divisive satanic cunt and help your brother out

>>10970164
Hahahah

Come on dude. Maybe if you'd been Christian for 10-15 years and raised your kids in it. Most conversions to any religion only last 3-4 years.

>>10970153
>abusing logic to prove they are true

>>10970043
why do idiots like OP think christianity is some sort of self-help therapy for people to use and 'get better'. It's the same as those hipsters who 'embrace' buddhism because muh compassion muh mindfulness. Except you want some european tradcon backbone to it don't you.

Pathetic.

Bible :
Douay-Rheims Bible (http://www.drbo.org/index.htm))
https://archive.org/details/holygospelofourl00webeuoft

For Christ's life :
Jesus Christ, His life, His passion, His triumph by Augustine Berthe
Ludolph of Saxony's Vita Christi

The rest would need some minor changes since not everything is translated in English, but the classics are.

>>10970266
>everyone who has ever found comfort in religion is wrong and i am the superior mind

>>10970291
>conforming to x religion because 'it feels good'

>>10970165
>There's one God.
>You can reach him trough contradicting paths.
This is ech*menism in action.

>>10970266
People who completely lost their grip on reality need something to cling to. I guess OP is from a western influenced country so Christianity is his best bet to a normie life. Even if in the end he's only going to a church for the sake of social bonds.

>>10970291
>>10970291
Everyone who questions something irrational is a brainlet and I am of a superior mind for recognizing "comfort"

>>10970291
I think he's talking about religionhoppers

>>10970043
Don't be influenced by /lit/. They think Christianity is sophisticated self-help for post-modern meaninglessness. In reality it is the fedora-tipping atheists who are now fedora-tipping Christians. It's all out of contrarianism, and they were too stupid to continue with atheism because it meant keeping up with and learning science/physics, so they switched to the easier "universe is a mystery"

>>10970327
But science points towards the existence of God

>>10970337
Science doesn't "point" towards anything. Or perhaps it points to the single fact that the universe is fundamentally inhospitable to biological life and doesn't care about the humanity, never did and never will.

>>10970337
>But science points towards the existence of God

Yes. You're right. Quantum God quarks.

>>10970305
>There's one God.
>This god is infinite in scope and power, and beyond any contradiction even unto Himself.
>orthocuck implying you CAN'T reach Him by different roads, only by his brand of worship.

You might want to think some more.

>>10970337
>But science points towards the existence of God

>You know what? More and more I believe that being a Christian would lead to a healthier, happier, more fulfilling life. Where to start?

Is it new Christian literature thread?
What do you think about his book?

>>10970149|
Don't listen to this guy. You have to be a special kind of retard to think christianity can offer you anything

>>10970337
So we should all join the local Baptist sect because it's the one true religion.

>>10970291
Correct

>>10970404
>>10970401
>>10970399
>>10970394
>>10970375
>>10970356
Calm down, samefag.

>>10970043
Just don't. You can have happy life without lying to yourself. You will wind up being disappointed after commiting yourself to religion when you reale it was just an attempt to curb your current misery. Think of it OP

>>10970413
check the timestamps, retard. i'm none of those anons but wow can you be dumber. /lit/ limits users to one post per minute.

>>10970043
Yes but faking it doesn't. We're past the age of religion. If you seriously commit to larping you subscribe to a life of eternal doubt, fear of facts and dishonesty

>>10970419
>t. pic related

>>10970420
>I'm none of these anons
Try harder
>>10970419
>Dawkins
Are you 14-old?

>>10970413

Wow, insightful post. I used to think it was impossible that multiple people have the same ideas. But now that you have so lucidly pointed out that in fact I share an opinion with a few other people, my mind has been blown. Top-notch posting.

>>10970429
t. atheist larping as xtian

>>10970435
Cry more

>>10970433

>>10970435
>multiple people have the same ideas
>blame religion for the same case
wow... really make you think...

>>10970423
Why the fuck is everything a LARP?
St. Dismus (sp) converted on the cross.
You don’t have to be born into the 20th generation of practicing Orthodoxs to be Christian.

>>10970466
Because there is no reason to be Christian. You just have to have faith. Nobody would just convert to something for no rational reason unless it's for psychological reasons.

>>10970108
Better than before, albeit living in that state of frustration that comes from not being able to find comforting certainty in either direction.
>>10970149
Perhaps you are still in the honey moonphase or just read selectively I hope its neither and that you found something more. Whilst many things are possible going into a specific religion with the mindset of getting a worldly payoff brings risk.

>>10970495
Very reductive response.

>>10970466
What do you mean have to be?
It's just a fact that these /alt-right christianscare zero about theology or gods commandments andonly about culture.

And that's because they know all the flaws in it and only use itas a tool to push reactionary policies

>>10970419
Dawkins book (arguably the second worst book arguing for the atheist world view) and New Atheism will lead to the same problems albeit atheism can produce worse results because hasnt yet developed a strong literary and societal tradition. The roots are there but its going to be at least a century before atheism starts to catch up.

>>10970466
>Why the fuck is everything a LARP?
Because this is an anime imageboard with a mainly teen to mid twenties user base who have a fondness for contrarianism. Its not really a commentary on all converts. Pic related

I doubt it. Christianity can turn you into a neurotic mess, full of self-hatred and anxiety.

The result depends on your perspective and the sect you choose. What works depends on yourself.

>>10970110
>I could not reconcile their loving exterior with their notion of eternal damnation.
I can't imagine being this much of a pleb. Surely you weren't even interested in Christianity in the first place if you didn't even dabble in it far enough to figure out that "eternal damnation" is simply a separation from God. That's what hell is. And that is also what sin is.
So those who sin create a rift between them and God (through their own choice). Thus they live eternally in the life they had chosen during their life.
Why is this so hard to reconcile?
>>10970163
Sure thing larper.
>>10970043
Depending on where you're up to, you should start with Mere Christianity, then perhaps move onto Orthodoxy by Chesterton, then perhaps revisit some of the works by C.S Lewis, like the screwtape letters.
You might also want some apologetics, go read Reasonable Faith for that. As for Christology, I'm not too sure, but I've heard The Case for Christ is decent.

>>10970560
I just want to point out that a fedora spent at least two years posting bait threads on /pol/ to make that picture.

>>10970043
Most of my distaste for religion stems from mother.

>Being a Christian so that you can have an edge in living out your otherwise secular life

What the hell OP? Where does Jesus and the Cross figure into this exactly? Shouldn't you be a Christian because you believe in following Jesus? Isn't any other reason self-deceiving?

This question is unrelated, but does anyone know the name of that religion that is kind of similar to christianity that was once popular in yugoslavia?
>inb4 Islam

>>10970929
Bogomilism?

I mean, Nicene Christianity is pretty lame spiritually speaking. You might feel "the Lord's presence" in one or two moments if you get lucky, but other than that you're pretty much stuck in your ego.

Have you tried looking into other religions first?

>>10970951
>Bogomilism
Yes, thank you.

OP, dont listen to the new atheists and naysayers and dawkins fans in this thread. The poster who said science is pointing to the existence of God more and more is correct. check out these videos of david bentley hart discussing that very issue. He explains sciences shortcomings and its inability to explain everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3OoJNTEp7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__7ZFiir-4s

David Bentley Hart

>>10970043
>Being Christian just to be healthier, happier, and more fulfilling

>>10970043
Don't listen to stupid Christians. Here's quote from Dawkins

>>10970043
that's how they get you

>>10970152
Very nice response and it is what in the end I believe, but not what my church teaches, not what my priest told me when i went to confessional and asked about my brother who was murdered without being baptized and while being a drug addict. In the end if one person i love is in hell i will choose that over heaven and if need be over God. Simple as that.

>>10971312
Sorry about your brother anon. The catechism also states God has mercy on those who never heard the word of Christ (ie, if they never understood it or felt the call) but if they had and if they /would likely have desired/ baptism, God has mercy on them.

What you mention is one of the reasons I have faith but don't go to church myself: dumb ass shitbag priests who don't know their shit or recognize the responsibilities of the shepherd.

>>10972847
I think the church as an institution is so far from what I read in Acts that it is absurd. I don't see what the church has to do with Christ or the mission of the apostles.

You know OP, if you have to "start" somewhere, you might already be on the wrong path. Embrace values and beliefs you already hold inherent to yourself and explore them further. If and when you find something that speaks at the same level you do, then pursue it to the extent of how you believe, and no further.

>>10971312
I mean, it is there in the catechism, shitty priest or not. And I have to ask, would you prefer jail to freedom if a sibling committed murder? It's a similar principle of justice for transgressions.
>>10972847
>>10972892
That's kind of inevitable though, even in the new testament we see Christians misbehaving, and that had to take the initiative to join a persecuted Church then. It is an institution composed of humans, hospital for sinners and not collection of saints.

go to church and see what's like to be a practical christian, not just liver of a fantasy you have of Christianity

>>10970519
>Perhaps you are still in the honey moonphase or just read selectively I hope its neither and that you found something more

I hope not but I don't think so. I didn't go into Christianity because I think it would make my life happier and more fulfiling. I went into Christianity because it is the only think that seems possible. I lost faith in everything but God. God is the weakest glimmer of hope but He is the only hope that I can see. Perhaps I'm too caught up in thinking that there is a One Truth, but the thought that there is no One Truth undermines everything that we humans do. We simply don't live as if there is no truth, and I'm not sure that we ever will. It's like those people that say that love is just a chemical reaction. No one seriously loves with that thought in mind. To anyone that has experienced love it is a profound mystery, not a mere physiological process.

Same goes for God. We are fundamentally religious creatures, and if I'm to have any hope of breaking out of my egoistic shell I need to believe that there is something solid to hold on to, that it's not just me and MY truth. I firmly believe that each of us has a moral duty to overcome ourselves, and if there is no One Truth, then there is nothing but myself, my thoughts, my opinions. I'll be forever trapped, to live out what ever wretched life it is that my nature has in store, until lo and behold I wake up one day with blood on my hands, having lived my life like Adolf Eichmann. Becoming a Christian has made my life very hard but ultimately so much more meaningful. I have genuine faith. I meet God in my heart everyday, however disappointing I may be to Him.

All the sceptics in this thread have yet to reach the limit of themselves, where they realise how powerless they really are, how wretched they really are, how completely and utterly lost they really are--when you realise that there is nothing for one to do but obey. God will come into your life and make it new, if only you would let him. That's how generous he is. Just say less, and now you will be found.

>pic related its my life; don't become a Christian unless you're prepared to burn for the Good

>>10970043
by reading about how many different versions of the bible have existed and how contentious the council of nicea was and how the entire NT is coded Egyptian-Greek-Chaldean metaphysics and Jewish mystic apocalyptic thought and about the Vatican wars, pedophilia, drug money laundering and embezzlement and about the jesuits stealing constantly, and spying on governments

>>10973397
Was born Catholic but not serious about it for a while. That's surprisingly similar to the conclusion I came to, though. "To whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life", after all.
>>10970043
As said by several here, talk to people, I'd recommend finding a priest that knows his faith well, and look into Christianity. Keep seeking the truth in it, though- as some here have mentioned, it's unsatisfactory just to be Christian for the effects in your life. Love God as the True and the Good, the rest will follow.

>>10970419
Kind of unrelated to the rest of this post, but I've always thought of Dawkins as a great apologist for theism.

>>10973550
>Dawkins as a great apologist for theism.
How?

>>10973550
I'm glad you agree brother. Bless

>>10973559
I find arguing that badly for atheism is a discredit to the movement, rather like a good part of popular American protestant apologia discredits Christianity. Obviously not conclusively disproving either, but that kind of popular rhetoric makes atheism hard to take seriously.

>>10973397
> I didn't go into Christianity because I think it would make my life happier and more fulfiling.
So why do you think the OP should ignore me when he is going in for that precisely that purpose?

I can tell you have walked and will walk a very different path than the OP. I would have posted very differently if the OP was asking questions about wrestling with normative desires over pure truth or had they believed in God how they should act on that.

On that last point though I would say that person doesn't become a Christian/Muslim/Buddhistect by being prepared to burn but become ready to burn as a result of that religion.

>>10973397
Sorry but that is stupid. We are all confused and lost, so let's just follow this religion constructed by roman and Byzantine nobles for no reason.

>>10971264
Christianity is the most comfortable religion a westerner can possibly choose.

>tfw Christianity doesnt give you joy or happiness and often gives you the opposite emotions

i dont think im supposed to feel this way. but i believe in it because its true, not because it makes me feel good

>>10974385
It's not true though

>>10970789
How do you expect one to become a Christian while also already having faith? To become a Christian is to currently not be one, and thus to not have faith. How someone comes to Christianity is irrelevant because all it does is bring them to a place where they can begin to build faith and want to follow Jesus because of it.

>>10970155
>>10970163
catholics are the only christians. Protestants are heretics, and more than that, heretics who destroyed western civilization with their belief that material success was a sign of god's grace, ultimately giving us the modern shithole we inhabit today. Truly no worse scum on earth

>>10974469
.. but then why become Christian, specifically? Why not become a Muslim, or Hindu, or whatever else?

If you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God who died and resurrected, why call yourself a Christian?

>>10974483
>implying the florentine bankers didn't start that shit before protestantism was even a thing

sorry dude no one can escape history

>>10974483
Don’t catholics use their temporal success to shame the orthodox who dress and preach exactly as the early church did

>>10974588
>dress and preach exactly as the early church did
Color me skeptical. Clothing has changed. The early fathers' preaching can be seen mirrored as much in Catholicism as Orthodoxy. The usual point of critique is also more often the extent and success of evangelization, not material success- whether or not you agree with the argument, that's mischaracterizing it.

>>10973938
Religion is not a construction

>>10974805
Yes it is. Just not consciously.

>>10974813
But what is at the base of that construction?

>>10970123
>is Catholic
>recommends any English bible other than the New American Bible

>>10970156
Maybe they want to go to heaven? You can't hoard all of heaven for yourself, that isn't very nice.

>>10974830
Desire for power and control of the masses

>>10974853
>unconscious desire for political power

Oh boy

>>10974853

>>10974853

>>10974838
>assuming I am a Catholic

>>10970050
Tbh this is a carry over from Platonism, which always separates the soul from the body completely. Scripturally, this just isn’t supported. Those who will be resurrected at the completion of time will have physical bodies. The “city in the clouds, wispy ghosts floating around” idea of heaven is an unfortunate consequence of Platonism’s influence.

>>10974874
Oops.

>>10970396
Graham Greene is heavily underrated on lit. He had amazing prose on the level of say, Fitzgerald, but is immensely more thoughtful.

I think I've become a better and happier person since I've become a Christian but that wasn't my intention. If it was I probably would have gotten discouraged and gave up at some point because it wasn't an easy transition. Christianity makes some extraordinary demands of you and they're especially heavy if you aren't born into it. I converted because it was the truth and you should too. Do your homework.

>>10970123
>Papist Scum tries to lead astray another soul.
Why am I not surprised?

>>10974903
I should be clear and say I was raised Catholic (forced into it really), broke with the Church after confirmation, and recently have found faith again - or rather for the first time. I don't think some of what I believe is compatible with the catechism, but I'm not trying to be a priest yet. It's a fine and ancient tradition if you do your research and actually read the theology instead of just going all-in with what your church group tells you to believe. no_proof.jpg in >>10970123 is a good start.

>>10974945
>this bottom-shelf unoriginal bantz

>>10974973
Adding that I believe Vatican II was a mistake and all the Marian devotion tacked on by JP2 is heretical. Current pope is reddit-tier.

Welcome to the ranks, my dude.

I guess what I should say first is that religion is like learning to play an instrument, or any new skill, really. The more you put into it, the more you’ll get out of it.

As someone raised Christian, I became atheist in my early teens, but recently came back through talking to people who saw things differently from me, as well as watching YouTube videos from Dennis Prager and Jordan Peterson.

Here are the main ones I particularly remember:

https://youtu.be/7JATJv8HlV8 - Human life versus animal life.

https://youtu.be/covUnyZGVaQ - Afterlife.

https://youtu.be/UrakW1DjApo - Eye for eye.

https://youtu.be/ryA8PafooQ4 - Is evil rational?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIBtb_NuIJ1y0fPzddUfOqYMav-gp1JNM - Ten Commandments Series.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL22J3VaeABQD_IZs7y60I3lUrrFTzkpat - JBP Bible Series.

>>10974992
Vatican II decisions and documents themselves were fine, though. Just a bunch of heretics in all but name decided to use it as an excuse.

Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. (John 14:6)

Becoming Christians won't help you guys stop being fat losers.

>>10975278
at least i am a fat looser with purpose now

>>10974908
Thank God he is underrated desu. I don’t want forced him like Pynchon, Joyce and other pretentious shit.

>>10975278
>implying I am not stronger than you, even in middle age.
Put down the keyboard son, you've typed enough.

>>10975337
Sure thing christfaggot.

>>10975287
is 'looser' slang for somebody who is 'loose' as in relaxed or did you just forget how to spell loser

What if I was raised in a christian household and found frustration with the religion not only because I wanted to sleep in on Sundays but also for always having been a solipsist and finding that 'being christian' and living a 'christian life' never addressed what I really cared about "what is any of this anyway"

I've explored altered states a bit and am fine with death and my version of the theme of this thread is in that the precipice I'm at of being only ever concerned with my own actions and nothing else.

Whereas some of you itt are looking for meaning or certitude or love in this, I just want to live my life devoted to my own sense of curiosity in relation to my solipsism until I die. Not only is this the only thing that really interests me about being alive but I've found that a solipsist perspective can be really effective in navigating boundaries and checking oneself in an effective manner. This solipsism is about being curious about subjectivity and exploring it, nothing else.

>>10975555
You should look into advaita vedanta.

It's only about your self.

Gurdjieffs teaching is similar but there isn't much point reading the books since none of them really talk about the self.

>>10975066
this is some sophisticated bait

>>10974385
this wasnt my experience. i was raised with a serious catholic upbringing but the day i decided that it wasnt true was the biggest relief of my life. the christian worldview is not comforting at all for me. its strange, paradoxical, often cruel, and my love of life increased tenfold when i started to belief that earthly life wasnt just the result of someone else's ancient original sin and was instead an unexplained miracle. i honestly cant understand why people are so drawn to this faith, its implications are usually horrible and its clear that the teachings were written for people who suffered miserable short lives in a tough region of the ancient world and not for most modern people that can savour their life a bit more.

>>10975890
>serious catholic upbringing
>earthly life was the result of original sin
???

Catholicism has earthly life as a marginally-more-explained miracle, tragically removed from perfection by the original sin. Small differences in worldview can lead to huge differences in the mood of beliefs. Strange and paradoxical it may be, but I find it reassuring in the way that truth is- not "happiness" or feel-goody, but the belief that we exist and are of and called to the ultimate Good is a joyful thing.
I imagine the "cruel" beliefs and horrible implications are the ideas of sin and damnation as meaningful things? We see sin in human behavior all around us, but the idea that it's sin implies that we're by nature above it, even if we can fall to it.
Not sure, either, why you believe existential and moral questions differ now that there's a bit more hedonistic pleasure/lack of pain to life.

>>10976577
>tragically removed from perfection by the original sin
you said it yourself: tragic. catholics can discuss the sanctity of life and the miracle of human life as much as they like but within their worldview our lives, in the state that they are currently in, are the result of an error and a misstep. in my experience this leads most people to a profoundly melancholic outlook and a belief that life is something to be endured and not savoured because this is not the life that God intended for us - there's nothing at all miraculous about such a state. we not only suffer and live in misery but these things exist because we deserve such a thing and because its our fault. this is a horrific belief and not suggestive of a miracle in any way.

>truth is- not "happiness" or feel-goody
no but it is often understood to be comforting: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

>the idea that it's sin implies that we're by nature above it, even if we can fall to it.
we can hold this belief without christian faith though and human beings have always been understood as something beyond their base urges (greek philosophy). instead what christianity adds to the discussion is the idea that, not only is sinful behaviour bad for its own sake as Aristotlean ethics suggests in its own way, but that you will burn in hell for the arbitrary fact that you commited a mortal sin but died before making it to confession. its christianity that designates fairly harmless things as eternally damning. i understand why gay sex is a perversion but does this deserve eternal fire? does it really mean a man has turned his back on God that severely? these beliefs don't have the positive outcome you say they do, christianity distorts them if anything. don't even get me started on the obscene question of the 'uninitiated' souls across the world.

>why you believe existential and moral questions differ
because i no longer have to factor in such strange, warped beliefs to my answers to such questions. i dont need to steer my conclusions around the fear of hellfire and i dont need to worry about reconciling this vision of God with the difficult debates around free will which always concerned me.

>hedonistic pleasure
not really a factor. i still live a life thats oriented around a love of the people around me, christianity in some ways only hindered such a thing for me.

Start by reading the new testament, then the old testament. King James version is one of the better translations, douay rheims is a close second (unless you can read Greek or Latin, then the original is best of course). But most of all, you have to accept that Jesus died for all of us.

>>10970043
KANG JAMES BYBOLE

>>10976906
oh shit who this broad from... wifeswap or something. she's freakin out. link pls.

found it. DORK-SIDED. SHE'S NOT A CHRISTIIIIIAAAAAAANREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpva_iit-8

>>10976923
This is the average American Protestant who browses 4chinz, the people I share a country with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuAvRCSWu8I

>>10976929
>Protestant
>Christian

>>10976935
My favorite part of that episode was during the end when the pagan husband and wife reunite. She was a feminist or something and because she saw the God Warrior crying she immediately assumed he was at fault and made him look like a little bitch. She definitely wears the pants in that house.

Occam's Razor proves God's existence

>>10976958

>>10976709
I'm not sure whence you derive that first part, it's utterly foreign to Catholicism. Sin is to be endured, not accepted, and life celebrated, not suffered through. It's a tragedy that our lives are removed from perfection, but they are still good in and of themselves. That we are under the effects of sin in some way is blatantly obvious if the goodness of life is also upheld. You seem to mostly agree with this view, just have a false belief that Catholic terminology leads to other conclusions.
Your second point- that's exactly what I'm arguing, yes. That it is a hard road, suffering on it, but there is joy to it.
>we can hold this belief without christian faith though
I didn't imply otherwise. Now you're on to the point of hell, instead of original sin. Am I right to assume these are largely separate? I see no reason to conflate them. Hell is a basic consequence of choosing a subordinate good over the true Good. That kind of inversion of the very ends of the person is a serious thing that deserves punishment, and also, more primarily, makes a person unfit for paradise. What makes the sin deserving of eternal punishment is that they remain in the state of sin, rather like a person too stuck in their ways to change in life. Mortal sin is not an "arbitrary thing", it is by definition a conscious rejection of God- that that means you will not be with Him after death is no cruelty. These "strange and warped beliefs" were not caused by living in less comfortable times nor obviated by relative comfort (perhaps hedonistic was too extreme a word there).

>>10977789
This entire conversation is about the comfort of Christian belief which you maintain. I focused on the word 'tragic' because I think that aspect of the theology undermines any sense of comfort in a Catholic worldview which tinges all of this human life with a constant note of melancholy. We live in the shadow of 'The Fall' (the sins of others) which we must now continue to suffer for.

>they are still good in and of themselves
You mean beneath the need for constant confession, contrition, penance, and grovelling? Its difficult to believe it sometimes.

>hell, instead of original sin. Am I right to assume these are largely separate?
Not at all because without that original sin there would be no damnation and no hell to suffer it in. They are inextricably linked.

>a serious thing that deserves punishment
You mean eternal, unending hellfire - thats something a bit heavier than mere 'punishment' and if you're asking me then no I don't believe such a thing is deserved for most sinners. Infinite suffering for finite sins is a cruel and unsettling idea, and one that I think most would find unjust.

>I didn't imply otherwise
But you did imply that Christianity offers us that specific comforting idea whereas my point was that core idea of mankind being above sins/urges comes from elsewhere, and Christianity's contribution is to merely turn it into a nasty, eternal judicial system which is truly discomforting.

>Mortal sin is not an "arbitrary thing"
What I called arbitrary was the possibility of making it to confession -- its very possible to die in sin merely because you were unable to speak with a priest in time. Depending on your commitment to the concept of confession your salvation becomes as much an issue of timing as it is virtue.

>you will not be with Him after death is no cruelty
The alternative to being with God is not mere isolation or destruction though. It is active suffering and punishment on an unending scale, it is the most profound cruelty and I think anyone would agree that to have never been born would be better than that act of "no cruelty" as you put it.

You sound a bit desensitised to these doctrines. I know you've probably had these kinds of debates a million times before but please don't ever lose sight of just how extreme the notion of hell is. Please know just how abhorrent a concept it is to those on the outside - Christianity is no comfort to anyone who knows it well.

>>10977903
>beneath the need for constant confession, contrition, penance, and grovelling
Yes, somehow contrition for my sins and celebration of my life seem both rational outlooks on different things.

Damnation is tied basically all practical cases to the sin of the individual- even the catechism states that "God is not restricted by the sacraments", and it's taught that those that seek God in the form that they come to know Truth and Goodness can be saved. Original sin is more simply the precursor of our tendency to sin, which in itself is a deviation from perfection- a sin.
>eternal, unending hellfire
The use of fire is as much symbolic as literal, or more, or entirely. The sin is in the nature of the person as well- as eternal as the punishment is. Even the nature of hell's punishments as entirely self-inflicted or external is not a matter of dogma- I'd lean towards the punishment being primarily in the self-destructive nature of the sin. I'd really recommend Lewis' The Great Divorce, as well as Chesterton or Gorge MacDonald on life with religion more generally. I honestly don't see how heaven and hell are that radical of concepts, aside from the foundation of eternal life and a judgment after death. The eternal bodily resurrection is much more radical. Hell is found in practically all religions to the same extent that they believe the person continues to exist.
>the possibility of making it to confession
Exactly the same arguments for saving of the unbaptized apply here, and in far greater force.
>Christianity is no comfort to anyone that knows it well.
A no true scostman argument, and one that manages to imply that some of the most significant Christian writers and dozens of saints don't know Christianity well. Jesus? Paul? They didn't know what they were talking about. Chrysostom, Gregory the Great, Francis, Thomas, Therese, Theresa of Lisieux or Calcutta? John Paul II, Chesterton, Lewis, Tolkien? They didn't know Christianity at all. Obviously.

>>10970043
With prayer

>>10978044
>>10977903
You guys are the fucking worst. Learn to form coherent paragraphs without relying on the intellectual crutch of responding to individual sentences.

>>10970131
Okay lol have fun reading inferior literature and being nothing but a dumber version of Catholics.

>>10978044
>as much symbolic as literal
Ah the old game of symbolic vs literal interpretations. My favourite. You can soften up your beliefs and liberalise them all you like but you'd be ignoring almost all of scriptural teachings on punishment which are given from both Paul and Jesus himself. Even if you're feeling in a metaphorical mood today then you'll still have to accept the three running themes of hell's description: its a place not merely a state, its eternal, and its extremely painful. I like your approach to sin but it doesn't correspond at all to divine judgement. "It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

>I honestly don't see how heaven and hell are that radical of concepts
I don't mean necessarily with regards to their revolutionary or unique nature in world religions, I mean that their implications are radical and extreme.

>same arguments for saving of the unbaptized apply here
There are no arguments: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

Source: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1261

The fate of an dead unbaptised child is forever reliant on hope for grieving parents. Oh well, I hope the poor mother doesn't have too many sleepless tear-filled nights worrying over it. Christianity must be very comforting indeed at those times.

>A no true scostman argument
Your little list at the end is filled to the brim with people who were not comforted by Christianity, actually. I'll end with Paul, the founding theologian of the faith, talking about how he wishes he were dead: "But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better."

>>10970043
Orthodox Study Bible

>>10978072
This is 4chan not an undergraduate essay, this structure is the quickest way of responding to everything.

>>10978168
>This is 4chan
I agree that this is 4chan
>not an undergraduate essay
I never said it was
>this structure is the quickest way
It takes longer to copy and paste individual sentences and it makes reading unnecessarily more difficult because the style is so convoluted
>of responding to everything.
Why can't you respond to everything while also writing like a normal human with a functional brain?

>>10978190
I'm not either one of those guys arguing so i don't care either way but the style of those types of responses could actually not be less convoluted.

>>10978143
Yes, hell is seen as a place, and eternal, and painful. The punishments and pains of which could be somewhat metaphorical. I'm not sure why you have difficulty with literal v abstract interpretation, but that is essential for this discussion. The implications of hell you seem to think are implied are rejected wholesale in Catholic philosophy, practically no serious Catholic writers would agree with you that such a view of life results from the possibility of damnation. Yes, the unbaptized are left to the mercy of God, but God's justice is also a core belief. At the very least, the between confessions instance is a blatantly direct analogue to baptism by desire, which is explicitly held. Frankly, most of your argument is telling Christians what Christians believe, blatantly disregarding any actual teaching, with little more basis than subjective experience. Paul in the quote you provided is rather obviously speaking of anticipation of heaven, not in denial of good things in the world, as you state. Do you have any actual evidence that the entire list, and others, found their faith to be a depressing thing?

>>10978072
I generally try to, but it keeps turning into a couple of largely unrelated points.

>>10975890
>i honestly cant understand why people are so drawn to this faith
psychological comfort
big daddy in the sky provides a guarantee for my desir- i mean uh a guarantee that the chaos of life won't overtake my being

>>10974881
based actually-read-the-Bible poster

>>10978351
Slightly confused by your understanding of what I think the implications of damnation are, but telling me that convinced catholic writers think "it ain't half bad" isn't exactly the surprise, or argument, of the century. We can take the example of unbaptised children here: whilst you say that God's justice counteracts the fear of their damnation I would say the fact that Catholicism even raises such a debate or brings about the need for such an argument is evidence that this is a distressing faith system and not one of comfort. Just picturing the fact that there have been discussions between grown men about whether or not stillborn children are suffering in hell is madness, and regardless of their conclusion it begs the question of what kind of a belief is this? Apparently its a belief system in which sacraments are absolutely and literally necessary until its easier to just say that they aren't for the sake of argument.

I'm not misinterpreting Christian teaching as wildly as you think I am, it seems to me that you're just hiding behind metaphor and lame exegesis. Most catholics would obviously say that their faith is a comfort but in my own experience (which is all I ever claimed to be discussing and speaking from) its a religion that condemns most people to an afterlife of suffering, considers earthly life the continuous result of mankind's own failure and therefore well-earned misery, and runs itself ragged in trying to defend its strange positions which ends up in cruel and absurd proclamations such as the unborn children extract I shared.

Also please refer to the line just before that Paul extract: "to die is gain."

>>10970096
You never truly believed

>>10970305
>has strong opinion on ecumenism
>can't even spell it

>>10978552
Extracts from Mother Theresa's 'letter to Jesus' towards the end of her life:
"I call, I cling, I want ... and there is no One to answer ... no One on Whom I can cling ... no, No One. Alone ... Where is my Faith ... even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness ... My God ... how painful is this unknown pain ... I have no Faith ... I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart ... & make me suffer untold agony."

"So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them ... because of the blasphemy ... If there be God ... please forgive me ... When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. I am told God loves me ... and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

She must not have truly believe either, right???

>>10974881
but you do hate the body and the people are given light bodies, not the human bodies at all.

I tried to be Christian for many years and I think it made me miserable and filled with more anxiety instead of less. Christianity didn't really work for me, if it works for others, that's great. I will stick with idealism, and not any organised religion for now.

>>10974881
so where exactly does the generic christian fixation on the 'soul' and the 'spiritual' come from?

how does this differ between evangelicals,catholics, orthodox christians, etc? and how is the a part of the specific way in which people relate to the literal vs metaphoric/symbolic discourse?

>>10978613
based. now instead of how certain idealists place the god gaze as the gaze that actualizes the universe, internalize the truth that your own gaze is the only gaze that actualizes any sense of what you refer to as reality

>>10978549
It's not that "it ain't half bad". Damnation is dangerous, but the concern is sanctifying ourselves for the sake of the Good- the Good that gave us our material lives and the world to enjoy. Such things as the fate of the unborn should obviously be debated for the sake of consistent sacramental theology. However, generally the possibility of stillborns being damned (except by their own choice (given a choice at death, as some argue occurs, not that they took a bad one to end up stillborn)) is seen as a reducto against theologies with a just God allowing such. Philosophers similarly argue about innocents being run over by trolleys, that does not imply their insanity.
>Apparently its a belief system in which sacraments are absolutely and literally necessary until its easier to just say that they aren't for the sake of argument
I generally despise just calling out fallacies, but you're literally putting words in my mouth here and giving explanations for things I accept that I disagree with. The sacraments were instituted by God, but our lives are sacramental in a similar-not identical- way, i.e. for us to come to know Him. We should spread the word of the Church he left us, but a just God would not commit those outside its reach to be left away from Him. This is not reaching, this is a sane extrapolation.
>ur exegesis is lame
Schoolyard insults, now. Frankly, what evidence have you provided for your exegesis? I can and have pointed to philosophers and writers and Church documents. Just one person's experience, especially with a potentially flawed education or outlook, is not alone enough to make your point.
>condemns most people to an afterlife of suffering
Seeing as most people are not saints, and many are far worse, yes. The numbers are never specified except in metaphors about the ease of each path.
>considers earthly life the continuous result of mankind's own failure
Earthly life is the result of God's gift of our existence and our capacity for procreation. That we consider parts of our current existence flawed should not be especially shocking.
You also misinterpret Paul here- he speaks of death as gain, as martyrdom and reaching heaven is such- not because life itself is inherently flawed, just because of the rewards that follow.
>runs itself ragged in trying to defend its strange positions which ends up in cruel and absurd proclamations
...utterly unbased and substanceless. We are told, again and again, that God is merciful. And that the unborn are committed to His mercy. You might be misunderstanding the meaning of hope in the section you quoted?

>>10978816
>That we consider parts of our current existence flawed should not be especially shocking.
But its Christianity that says those things are our fault. Without that faith we would just accept life as it is without this inherent guilt and obsessive need to be thankful for such a life whilst suffering through it.

Anyway I don't agree with any of those points you've made really but its obvious now that we're coming at this from completely different angles. I doubt there's much value in us carrying on with this conversation any longer but I appreciate your replies and arguments.

>>10978874
>those things are our fault
To some extent yes, though I'd say that's bacause the Christian ideal is sainthood in every person. Obviously there are evils in the world, but it's Christianity here saying that the world should be good, and that there's much good still in it, rather than the celebrate-with-what-we've-got attitude you seem to be espousing in this post. I'd still say being thankful for the good in life, wanting to avoid and reduce the evil in it, and making amends for our own failings is the proper reaction to the world, faith or no faith. I guess you were closer than I realized to that kind of... well, I'd say idealless, but call it what you will- position. Basically it's being called to greatness vs simply being as we are, I suppose.

I was mostly defending against a rather ineffective series of criticisms of the faith, but I can see where you're coming from about bringing it to an end. Probably for the best, neither of us could agree even on basic analysis of a passage from Paul.

>>10978957
God bless

>>10970043
start by reading the bible
find a spiritual be teacher

>>10976958

>>10979225
Why do you post a Catholic guy to disapprove of that post

>>10979711

Catholicism is idolatry.

Catholic > Orthodox >>>>>>>>> shit >>>> urine > Protestant

>>10976906
GORGILES!
SLYCHICS!

>>10978579
Mother Teresa was a Roman Catholic and thus, practiced idolatry. She was also a nun and it doesn't state in the Bible that in order to be a saint you must be a nun or priest. Sainthood comes through being born-again by Christ. Acknowledging that you are a sinner needing a savior, realizing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, knowing that he rose and conquered the grave. You must truly repent of your sins and gain a new heart/mind. Once this occurs you will seek out the real truth in the word of God and not follow the vain traditions of many churches. Once I became born-again, God has always been here for me. I call and he answers just at the right moment. I never feel abandoned and while at times I do experience tribulations, I know the Lord is always there for his saints. Seek the Lord and he will be there to receive you with open arms.

>>10980576
> I refuse to accept that Maccabees is canon, so Catholics are ascriptural

>>10980630
> What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

SOLA FIDE IS WRONG

>>10970062
>we're totally healthy, we pray to bones!
C*tholics everyone

>>10980582
>prefers shit over urine
Pathetic.

>>10980639
Do you honestly want me to give you every single justification for me being born-again? Of course I do works for it is written, James 2:24 states, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

>>10980700
But how are you saved outside the church founded by Simon Peter, who holds the keys to the Kingdom of God? Church fathers acknowledged the Bishop of Rome’s authority before the books in the New Testament were finalised, so Scripture outside of the church is stupid.

>>10978579
big fucking surprise a third world woman was a brainlet who didn't have a solid enough grasp of philosophy to replenish her faith

>>10980630
>"my faith is so strong and I believe just like this and bla bla blah!"
listen, anon

>Luke 18:9-14
>To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

>“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

>“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

>>10980719
Church is not founded by Peter alone.
Paul made it too.

it is well known that Mother Teresa doubted her faith. it shouldn't matter though because they are people. they have nothing special over any of the rest of us, no special knowledge or sense that grants them superhuman anything. these people should not be held up as demigods in life as the church has been doing.

>>10980787
>that pic
>"Church is not founded by Peter alone. Paul made it too."
>many sides!

>>10970110
I don't think you understand how hell works.
>be ancient Israelites
>jesus doesn't exist yet so you have to transfer your sins to animals(this is where scapegoats come from)
>transfer all your sins to animals for a couple thousand years
>god eventually sends himself in a human body
>god sacrifices himself for literally all past and future sin
>all you have to do to have your sin debt removed is to believe that jesus was god and that it really happened

its not that god wants to arbitaritly send people to hell, it's that they're sinners, and all sinners go to hell, and they simply never accepted the fact that jesus paid their sin debt

if you want to be some kind of nu-ager about it, jesus is simply removing karmic debt

Any religion that denies the Divine Feminine is halfway to atheism.

>>10971312
>be in debt 10 million dollars
>if you don't pay off your debt you get thrown in debtors prison
>some Guy says he'll pay it off but you have to acknowledge that He exists
>don't acknowledge Him and go to debtors prison

Most of the angst comes from a bunch of stupid what-ifs like "waaah what about people who aren't christian" in which case 1. it's gods job to judge people and 2. if you really cared about unsaved people you'd go around preaching the gospel. but you aren't doing that, you're just whining, which tells me you don't actually care about unsaved people going to hell, you just want to make the Guy who will pay off your 10 million dollar debt look like an asshole.

>>10980786
>who didn't have a solid enough grasp of philosophy to replenish her faith
>faith is a matter of philosophical knowledge
Mother Theresa's "brainlet" faith achieved more and inspired more than your own self-satisfied, pseudo-educated belief. You're a useless judgmental worm and there's room enough in hell for posturers like you who, I guarantee, better resembles the pharisee than the tax collector in your quoted verse. Fuck off.

>>10980787
> I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

This authority is vested in the seat of the Bishop of Rome

>>10980836
hahaha, that's a salty anon. Faith in Christ and the Church's mission *is* a matter of philosophical knowledge. What do you think theologians do all day? Thomas Aquinas was just writing in his diary desu for shits and giggles? I'll prove it to you in one sentence: if you had no knowledge of the philosophy espoused by the Church, you would not have faith in that specific conception of God. I forgive you for your harsh words, btw.

>>10970152
Modern theology assumes that the afterlife is simply proximity to god, and hell is suffering due t the uncleanliness of the soul, purgatory is the process of purification from minor sins, and heaven is proximity to god with a clean soul. Also look at vincible ignorance.

>>10980858
And I'll see if I can forgive you for calling Mother Theresa a third world brainlet. Her issue was not a philosophical one, it was a loss of personal experience of God - no amount of Aquinas could help that.

>>10980897
I'm not that anon and I'm not one of those fedora tippers who hates Mother Theresa, but she was one of those people who mistook clinical depression as some kind of "long night of the lost faith" or whatever that catholic buzzword for depressed person is.

She could have used some Prozac though I know it didn't exist back then.

>>10980897
I lost personal experience with God, for a couple of decades I was without faith. But I have found it again. Philosophy was the fuel and tinder. Scripture was the spark.

She was a mortal, not a demigod or goddess or perfect and beyond reproach. She was just like anyone here. The reverence that Catholics show towards Mother Teresa, now Saint Teresa of Calcutta, is obscene and wicked. And the miracle required for her canonisation was a hoax at best and political favoritism (ie, corruption) in the Church at worst.

>The process of canonisation requires the documentation of a miracle resulting from the intercession of the prospective saint.[141] In 2002 the Vatican recognised as a miracle the healing of a tumour in the abdomen of Monica Besra, an Indian woman, after the application of a locket containing Teresa's picture. According to Besra, a beam of light emanated from the picture and her cancerous tumour was cured; however, her husband and some of her medical staff said that conventional medical treatment eradicated the tumour.[142] Dr. Ranjan Mustafi, who told the New York Times he had treated Besra, said that the cyst was caused by tuberculosis: "It was not a miracle ... She took medicines for nine months to one year."

>>10980917
>And the miracle required for her canonisation was a hoax at best and political favoritism (ie, corruption) in the Church at worst.

This is why I'll never respect Padre Pio. His "miracles" were bs.

>>10980901
That’s a slippery slope though. We could probably consider many conversions to be the result of psychological or mental issues as opposed to real spiritual despair.
>>10980917
I’m well aware she was’t a goddess, thanks for reminding me. I just think you’re projecting your own experience of faith onto a woman that deserves to have her own lifelong journey taken on its own terms. You sound like a banker telling a tramp to pick himself up by the bootstraps.

>>10980922
>This is why I'll never respect Padre Pio. His "miracles" were bs.
WEW, that's a fucking doozy. Pio was a lunatic and narcissist, I don't know how normies can read accounts of his life and take him seriously.