/lit/ - Literature

>>10888401
Well of course under the naturalist world view it is a social construct that humans place or invest in something rather than it being an inherent component of something.

>>10888425
Please be less vague

>>10888443
many social animals exhibit behaviors of submission and dominance, displays of status, depression, resignation, pride and anger, etc.

To such a naturalist there exists no clear distinction between dignity and an animal's recognition of his position in a group or pack, except that our brains are developed enough to dignify the emotion with more meaning, and to create new social structures within which they can hold claim to higher status

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/naturalism-moral/ or some meme pragmatism

That pic makes no sense since its usually christcucks themselves that want to invite more refugees.

>>10888443
Dignity is something people make up and give to things rather than something people discover in a thing.

Just like how the bricks in this wall are not bright red by themselves but are bright red because a person painted them.

>>10888401
Define atheist. Would you call me atheist if I considered God as a center of gravity, the position of which one imbues depending on how strong they are? i.e. if you are strong, you increasingly feel the center of gravity in yourself, whereas the weaker you are, the more you feel that God is on the outside.

>>10888493
i would call you a new-age yuppie fucker actually

>>10888500
You'd be calling Nietzsche a new-age yuppie fucker then, because that is who the idea stems from. My language might be a little poetic, but I'm referring to observable phenomena, not anything mystical.

>>10888485

If dignity is just something that people make up then it's ultimately meaningless.

>>10888401
kek. secular humanists have been claiming that human dignity is tied with suffering and since those people are hedonists, suffering means physical pain plus the usual frustration experiencing an event that you did not ask for or which displeases you. Since those people are rationalist, they claim this situation of suffering comes form ''factors'' and that lack dignity is destroyed by removing those factors, ie giving people the material means of doing what they want and then their meme of equality of opportunity kicks in.

also, since those people are christians, they claim that this human dignity applies to any human.

>>10888515
>If dignity is just something that people make up then it's ultimately meaningless.
What do you mean by meaning here?

>>10888526

It's arbitrary and changeable. There's no set value.

>>10888485
If you're claiming that of a naturalist worldview then that would mean naturalists can never see innate dignity. Not to say that is good or bad, just important to note.

>>10888465
This would mean that it is something negotiated and personal then, rather than innate, yes? Would the naturalist have no means to be innately worthy of respect (dignity)?

it's nuanced alpha/beta pack mentality impulses being felt by a species that can practice impulse control

>>10888493
It doesn't matter how I'm defining it as the topic is naturalism's ability to grasp dignity. I just plugged "atheists" in to spur redditors here.

>>10888401
Dignity is a social construct.

>>10888566
t. Atheist

>>10888564
Is all psychology outside the grasp of naturalism to you?

>>10888576
how does that make someone an atheist

>>10888527
>It's arbitrary and changeable. There's no set value.
But that does not mean there is no value at all. Unless of course you as an axiom hold set value to be a requirement of truth.

Does evolution and the changes and arbitrariness it makes possible bother you?

>>10888552
>Not to say that is good or bad, just important to note.
It is, just as it is important to note the great difficulties rationalists/non naturalists run into when trying to see/determine an innate difficulty.

>>10888401
dignity is whatever the group induces the individual into believing it means. It could mean being a slut, a girl with dignity with high socio-sexual status among her peers getting dicked down well by two handsome Chad's who spite her afterwards and her being a bad bitch in the whole affair is dignified in many circles. Before it wouldn't have been, but if she was an empress having many lovers who satisfy her would be dignified, whereas for a peasant women she'd be killed or ostracized for this.
>>10888559
>people have agency

>>10888580
Not entirely, but don't beat around the Bush and explain your view

dignity is self mastery

>>10888588

Yeah you can assign value but my point is that it can be changed arbitrarily. It's not a set value. If dignity isn't something that's unchangeable and intrinsic to the human species then it's no longer dignity by definition but something else entirely.

>>10888588
>great difficulties rationalists/non naturalists run into when trying to see/determine an innate difficulty.

Tell me more of this. The only way I can see it conceivable is with reference to actor partaking and the actor's nature.

>>10888598
A sense of dignity is felt. The conditions under which the feeling is created don't presume the existence of God, depending on your understanding of God, but that's why I asked you to define atheism.

>>10888596
your brain is rotten please take it out to the compost heap

>>10888617
>inherent dignity is innate meme
There was movements intellectually to make the idea of innate dignity come about. All history outside this would show you that feeling of innate dignity is not inherent but negotiated.

>>10888612
>If dignity isn't something that's unchangeable and intrinsic to the human species then it's no longer dignity by definition but something else entirely.
By which definition, isnt dignity just about being worthy of respect or honor?

>>10888616
I misspelled that word there I meant dignity not difficulty. As for this issue, ive only just scratched the surface so I might not be all that helpful. Suffice to say unless you have a divine revelation you will run into the issue you described.

Which naturally gets rough when you meet others whose understanding of it do not align perfectly. The hardcore way of course is to then hold that only your/your groups understanding is a genuine understanding of it and that others are just mistaking their subjective values for objective ones. The more popular way is to gloss over the differences and focus on the points of similarity whilst ignoring the ugly question above.

>>10888649

>By which definition, isnt dignity just about being worthy of respect or honor?

It's that and it's also about worth or personhood. Dignity is the idea that humans are inherently valuable.

>>10888648
Who said anything about inherent dignity? Again, define your terms — what is atheism, what is God to you? And can you not have dignity because you feel your own superiority compared to those around you, i.e. you feel that you are personally a god?

>>10888664
>Dignity is the idea that humans are inherently valuable
says who?

>>10888401
I'm an atheist Nietzschean, basically I believe that human dignity is a meme that humanity has to vigorously fight for, and whoever opposes it must be destroyed.

It's a meaningless construct, but if someone opposes it I will do whatever it takes to destroy their opposition. It's not entirely meaningless, however, in that it's rooted in egoism (Hobbesian) and human nature (compassion.) In this sense then for me it's a natural right, but more so in a Thelemic way, in which the exploration and growth of profound natural tendencies is of central importance to the health and strength of the human spirit.

>>10888664
>dignity is the idea that humans are inherently valuable.
according to whom?

>>10888674
>>10888679

That's what the term human dignity has historically meant.

>>10888690
oh. wow.
what's your source?

>>10888675
Humans do not inherently have dignity. We spend years of our lives routinely screaming and shitting ourself. Adulthood is spent getting screamed AT and shit on.

You say dignity is something that must be fought for and defended, that makes more sense than saying that all humans deserve or have dignitiy, since that is an obvious untruth.

>>10888649
>By which definition, isnt dignity just about being worthy of respect or honor?

Not that anon but yes. It is common to deem all humans or all things of inherent respect. It is the origin of natural rights. However I'm curious how a secular humanist comes to this idea of innate dignity without relying on a theistic culture to borrow from.

>Suffice to say unless you have a divine revelation you will run into the issue you described

The idea of natural rights originally came from the medievals giving all authority to God and so from that we gain basically rights by proxy as ensuring our good is ultimately giving glory to God. Later , during modernism, natural rights are justified as what God enabled for us innately and we preference ourselves as we were "made in his image" as the scriptures say. It seems that beside the last point the non-naturalist west managed to achieve the view of inherent dignity without relying on revelation. Even the medieval grasp of God didn't sit as simply revelation.

>>10888596

i didnt say people have agency, i said impulse control. delayed gratification. a computer can have that too

>>10888709

No I'm not doing that because I don't care if you want to redefine what dignity mean as it suits you but if you want to understand what theists like the OP is saying then you should know what definition he's using. The OP is asking for atheists to account for intrinsic human worth in a naturalistic worldview.

>>10888738
Without God, dignity is felt by one's own power in the world.

Liberals are nothing more than self-hating heretic Christians at heart.

>>10888781
t. self-hating Christian

>>10888790
Jokes on you I'm of the Jewish faith.

>>10888645
you can't even argue and you think I'm going to go outside in the rain because what I said upsets you?

like in a world where dogs rule, one philosopher dog says to another, you know that feeling you get when you are outside and you hear another dog howling, and you can't help it but howl back. we dogs call that dignity. how do you explain that if there is no god?

we experience so many complex social behaviors and none of them are simple. for every behavior we find a word for, there's plenty more that are undefined still because it is not relevant to us to understand and vocalize

>>10888738

is this really what the op is on about? you sociopaths need intrinsic human worth explained? we are a social species. we are fragments of a whole and our only worth is together. we literally cannot thrive without each other, our mating systems wouldn't function. without a biological desire to protect each other, our species couldn't function at all

>>10888738
>redefined
Pretty sure you're the one shifting goalposts at this point.

>>10888401
>pic
What's wrong with pointing out the hypocrisy of people you don't agree with?

>>10888811
Dude this post is... retarded. Never assault my mind with your brain AIDS ever again

>>10888811

>is this really what the op is on about? you sociopaths need intrinsic human worth explained? we are a social species. we are fragments of a whole and our only worth is together. we literally cannot thrive without each other, our mating systems wouldn't function. without a biological desire to protect each other, our species couldn't function at all

I agree that our species wouldn't function if we didn't do all that but it's irrelevant and doesn't account for intrinsic human worth. We can protect each other and mate and so on and still not have human dignity. The Romans did that but they still left infants to die of exposure because they didn't have inherent value.

>>10888827
>uhh thats retarded!
t. sub 20 IQ brainlet

>>10888831
>intrinsic
>inherent
t. hasn't read Nietzsche yet

>>10888831

It does account for human worth. You have a very transparent, easy to establish, routine in your DNA that has been evolving for millions of years with a core function of it's survival to protect similar DNA. There is intrinsic human worth because we are all intrinsically valuable to each other in too many ways to list. All of this nuance is window dressing for deeper biological desires.

>>10888870

Complex DNA isn't exclusive to humanity. If that is what accounts for human dignity then we're no more valuable than any animal on earth.

>>10888882

I agree absolutely though, as I'm sure every atheist would, in the grand scheme of things we are only important to ourselves

>>10888892

Then we agree that the naturalistic worldview can't account for intrinsic human worth. Human dignity is a meaningless concept in a Godless universe.

>>10888835
He’s literally making a hypothetical where dogs are philosophers and look at his response to that other anon too. This man is certifiably insane and retarded and you’re actually thinking of having a DISCUSSION WITH HIM?

>>10888903

No, we agree that human dignity is a social concept that human beings understand because we have a biological drive to value human beings more than anything else and you're trying to rationalize this sensation.

It is not a universal concept that transcends human beings. There is no human dignity beyond human beings

>>10888906

You guys have got to be fucking with me. This reminds me of the time I had a conversation with an 18 yo fundy christian from nigeria. Is a dog philosopher really fucking stupid? Is it? You guys don't understand why human beings value other human beings yet I'm the retard? Go put two weeks of food in your closet and lock yourself in there with no outside contact and you'll learn a lot about humans and how interlocked we are. It would probably do a net good to have you gone for awhile

>>10888906
>I cannot comprehend analogies and thought experiments beyond normal phenomena

>>10888922

What reason do you have to believe that humans have a biological drive to value other humans? I don't think that's the case at all because before Christianity came, before this idea of intrinsic human worth was introduced, European society was absolutely brutal to each other. It was completely acceptable to let infants to die of exposure.

>>10888929
>You guys don't understand why human beings value other human beings yet I'm the retard?
it's just standard sophistry by religitards to 'prove' the absurdity of a 'godless world' by saying "AHA! that means humans are not valuable without the idea of God in their mind checkmate atheist".

>>10888942
European society was totally brutal all the way up until the Napoleonic period when total war and extreme law enforcement measures were capable of negating the violence. You're telling tales anon, Christianity only vaugely pacified Whites, it took atomic weapons and multiple continental wars, where Christfaggotry played no part, to get rid of that. Christian nigger behavior was rampant, the Crusades, the Northern Crusades, the wars of the Reformation period, the Pope constantly warring with Kings and Kings vying for land claims. You're just seeing what you want to see

>>10888933
>>10888929
>they are unironically defending the dog philosopher post

I am triggered

>>10888942
Ah yes christians came and saved the day by....torturing other human beings

>>10888950
>triggered by a simple analogy

>>10888948
Ah I was the one making fun of his post....

Uh. God is demonstrably real. That was not the stupid part of his post.

>>10888951
>>10888949

If all you're saying is that the Roman empire continued it's Roman empire ways long after Christianity appeared on the scenes then I would agree. This isn't what we're talking about though. What reason do you have to believe that humans have a biological drive to value other humans?

>>10888809
no one's upset here
but you are the one afraid to get your head a lil wet

>>10888960
>If all you're saying is that the Roman empire continued it's Roman empire ways long after Christianity appeared on the scenes then I would agree
now we're straying into untenable nonsense
>This isn't what we're talking about though
lol, this is such fucking awful lying. i couldn't imagine being this shameful of a human. I'm never going to switch presuppositions like this, yet this is what christfags and /pol/ users do nearly constantly.
>What reason do you have to believe that humans have a biological drive to value other humans?
Selection pressure and its not constant at all and its not even necessarily good for the species all the time, pathological altruism, like Christfaggotry is bad for fitness

we're done here anon, fuck yourself and your gay theological pseudery

>>10888960
>If all you're saying is that the Roman empire continued it's Roman empire ways long after Christianity appeared on the scenes then I would agree
I'm saying that Christianity didn't introduce the idea of intrinsic human worth.

>What reason do you have to believe that humans have a biological drive to value other humans?
We are social animals by nature, that's how we evolved in this world. This isn't hard to grasp.

>>10888978
>>10888981

Oh you can fuck right off with that autistic greentext. I'm not reading that.

>>10888509
Citation needed

>>10888984
>says the anon with constant reddit spacing

>>10888870
>the memes from scholars in secular universities is the truth

kys

>>10888992

"Reddit spacing" is double spacing or line breaks after individual sentences. I haven't done either.

>>10888675
>human nature (compassion.)
is it what you hear on the tele?

>>10888999
no you retard reddit spacing includes space after the backlink

jog back to r/Christianity, this is an atheist board

>>10888986
>Everything goes, everything comes back; eternally rolls the wheel of being. Everything dies, everything blossoms again; eternally runs the year of being. Everything breaks, everything is joined anew; eternally the same House of Being is built. Everything parts, everything greets every other thing again; eternally the ring of being remains faithful to itself. In every Now, being begins; round every Here rolls the sphere There. The center is everywhere. Bent is the path of eternity.

>All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

>He who one day teacheth men to fly will have shifted all landmarks; to him will all landmarks themselves fly into the air; the earth will he christen anew—as "the light body." The ostrich runneth faster than the fastest horse, but it also thrusteth its head heavily into the heavy earth: thus is it with the man who cannot yet fly. Heavy unto him are earth and life, and so willeth the spirit of gravity! But he who would become light, and be a bird, must love himself:—thus do I teach. Not, to be sure, with the love of the side and infected, for with them stinketh even self-love! One must learn to love oneself—thus do I teach—with a wholesome and healthy love: that one may endure to be with oneself, and not go roving about.

>Man is difficult to discover, and unto himself most difficult of all; often lieth the spirit concerning the soul. So causeth the spirit of gravity. He, however, hath discovered himself who saith: This is my good and evil: therewith hath he silenced the mole and the dwarf, who say: "Good for all, evil for all."

>A testing and a questioning hath been all my travelling:—and verily, one must also learn to answer such questioning! That, however,—is my taste: —Neither a good nor a bad taste, but my taste, of which I have no longer either shame or secrecy. "This—is now my way,—where is yours?" Thus did I answer those who asked me "the way." For the way—it doth not exist!

If you can't connect the dots with that, you just have to read him some more.

>>10888401
Hierarchies. The point of hierarchies is to have a chain of command, a structure to which orders can be given. Hierarchies are there to help the group survive. In a stable hierarchy, all members will benefit provided everyone do their jobs. But there's a catch, human beings are adaptable. We can go up and down hierarchies and break away from it entirely if we recognize there is to point of subjecting our self to a degenerate hierarchical structure. As such we can differentiate when someone above us gives us a command that does not serve a useful purpose other then to show to everyone else that your position has decreased, that you are below the lowest level.
Dignity then is the maintaining of position in a hierarchy by not following orders that are not justified.

>>10889006

Backlinks? What the hell are you talking about?

>>10889012
Hi redddit xD

>>10889020

Or just keep acting retarded. Whatever suits you.

>>10889006
As you can see from the 99% religious population ITT...

Even the people disagreeing with each other are religious. You’re like the guy no one likes or appreciates on the sideline shouting into a conflict and both sides unequivocally tell you to fuck off.

So fuck off

>>10889025
there is no need to be upset John

>>10889012

Like this. See what I did? This is you right now.

>non-literature thread is still up

>>10888664
>Dignity is the idea that humans are inherently valuable.
I'm the anon from >>10888649 but is that a modern take on the word? Looking at issues like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma which touches on the same issue seems to indicate that it was not that clear cut.

>>10888976
Not either of these guys in this reply chain but the way this dude just gives off the vibe of "haha I got you" smugness whilst saying nothing in response to something irks me. Of course "/lit/ isn't above that kinda thing" but it's a special kinda candyassery.

>>10888922
>a biological drive to value human beings more than anything else
You mean humans in our in group not humans as a whole

If there's nothing to life but what we make it, make it good.

>>10888731
why even call it that?

>>10888516
Traditionalist Christian here. Human dignity applies to those who havn't forsaken it. Going by the moral (not ceremonial) laws of the OT, acting like an animals means you get the rights of an animal. It still applies in the New Testament as well.
Hre's part of a discussion between Jesus and the disciples in Matthew chapter 18: >4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
>5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
>6 *But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.*

>>10888401
>natural
big league spook term

>>10888401
Why would humans have dignity? That is a christfaggot delusion

>>10889184
hey it's me
how do you respond to the delusions of others?
or the fantasies of children?
do you try to dispel them?
i've found it's a waste of time for one
and potentially damaging to the development of the other
so gentle pushback is best
if you can establish your own superiority in the process then
well
you've mogged 'em as they say
what's the pua advice for that?

>>10888401
If it's beneficial to the tribe, reinforce the behavior. Our group evolutionary history also informs our morals to a degree. I would argue this is where many religious ideas find their origin.

>>10890652
would you? i guess that settles it, then.

>>10888401
>pic
Is he wrong though? Are you not aware of how RAA works? I don't have to hold any of your beliefs to show you that two of them happen to not add up.