/lit/ - Literature

>>10826308
On the surface level, the incursion of /pol/ and the reactionary nature of this site in the face of admittedly trash social and cultural programming by mainstream media.

On another level, a lot of works by "diverse" authors are pushed because of authorial identity, not quality, and thats a problem too. But there arent many /lit/ types here that will despise Achebe or Thiongo, or the Japanese Canon, or the classic chinese novels, or something like Season of Migration to the North or Rabindranath Tagore or VS Naipaul as trash if they know what they are talking about.

>>10826318
Also, most readers here are beginners/early college students, so they dont know wtf they are talking about anyways, and are cheered by the relief at their ability to type the word nigger without sanction

>>10826318

I agree. I definitely think that authors should not get a leg up due to some literary affirmative action. That's a waste of everyone's time. But the idea that the Western canon ought to be kept insular for "literature's sake" just seems more like misoneism than anything.

>>10826328
But then you have to decide who's worth it without being a racist. If we are talking contemporary /lit/, Zadie Smith and Coates are absolute trash (to say nothing of Rupi Kaur). But then you have people like Beatty and James, who have legitimate great voices, but people are turned off by the reams of "oppressed voices" which are just huge whine fests.

Also, let the "western canon" be except for the inclusion of people like Cathar and Undset, and Emily Dickenson. Why should the "western canon" have people of other cultures? I thought we were talking about "the canon" that any modern person should read in order to be well read. Unless they are someone like Maimonides why would they be included.

Western is a synonym for White or European. Include non-White authors in their own canons. Our canon is ours and is defined by our racial & civilisational identity.

>>10826361
this, there is an Anglo European culture that exists, is vibrant, and should not be dismantled. Women are included in that. Darkies are not (except ishiguro and works of afro american/Caribbean lit)

A lot of resistance to this sort of thing comes from very understandable misgivings about projecting contemporary American racial politics into a past where they don't apply. The dichotomy of people of colour/white people is irrelevant when we're talking about classical antiquity or the medieval period.
There's something very ironic about eager postmodernists projecting their own values and assuming them to be universal

>>10826361
Western can mean many things. Does it include writers from North Africa or the middle east? Homer, the bible, St augustine etc do not map neatly into modern racial categories

>>10826403
Yes but not after the arab invasions unless it took place in spain

>>10826361
this tbqh

>>10826403
Your single edge case are pre-Arab Semetic people who are racial first cousins of Europeans (at worst) and who have 2500 years of intimate shared history with Europeans. Include them in the canon as an edge case where they are significant to European cultural & intellectual life, like the Bible, Christianity & Scholasticism.

>>10826308
The canon is a vague list of books considered to be aesthetically the best and most influential. Books by black authors in a western country (because we're talking about the western canon) are written basically only in USA. Their influence is simply minimal. They can't be included for muh diverse perspectives, because then you'd also have to add numerous obscure writers from the outskirts of Europe, and, why not, all the other canonical books from completely different cultures, India, far east etc.
Pro tip: disregard the canon altogether.

>>10826308
No one disregards minority writers. I doubt most people even give a fuck who the author is, because like most people, the average /lit/izen is looking at the book and content.

I guarantee when I'm on Goodreads looking for a new book to read I don't hunt down the author to make sure they're a white male or some shit. I just find books I like and read them.

But this progressive, post-modern agenda of "Diversity or else (we ruin your life, your career, add you to #metoo allegations, or call you a literal Hitler)" has been happening for YEARS.

Stuff like this:
http://adbl.co/2p2As7Y
Or things were people claim "Reverse racism isn't a thing", you're right. When you're racist against whites it's just straight racism.

This is why Trump won. You can only bring up these points and get compared to Hitler so many times before you get fed up. Contrary to what the media would have you believe, there are plenty of supporters out there who are well-read, well-educated and simply sick of the constant SJW narrative.

Pic related.

>>10826318
Pretty much this. Also can include Sappho and George Eliot and Woolf; no well-read person would say they're complete shit and don't deserve to be in the Western canon. It's just that what modern ideologies seem to be saying the equivalent of at times is, "Let's just kick out white male authors like Shakespeare and replace them with authors like Rupi Kaur," which is stupid.

>>10826361

I don't think this is true. Melville is American, Dickinson is too. Borges is South American. It's clearly not just white anglo authors, if it were, it'd be "the European Canon". Western is often associated with white but it is not a literal synonym for it.

>>10826369

This sort of anxiety is consistent with many people on this site. You seem to think that a desire for diversity is inherently a desire to erase tradition. Yes, many Marxists would like to destroy Western culture however identity politics and other similar phenomena are not inherently made with this intent. I'm speaking for myself here and going off of observations when I say that no one is trying to undervalue or disregard the beauty produced by Anglo European culture. People would simply like to include other authors in the West in the Western canon.

>>10826476

I disagree with that, I think your implying a slippery slope that isn't necessarily inevitable. I'm arguing that we should take the excellence of these marginalized cultures an include them, not just shoe everyone in for the sake of diversity alone. I'm not saying "throw in 30 new authors just because they're not white" i'm saying "don't disregard talent because it doesn't fit into an insular definition of literature". I don't think there is some vast amount of non-whites that ought to be included. But to say that there should be none is senseless to me.

>>10826518

Sorry I shouldn't have said no one. I mean to say "not everyone".

>>10826505
well said.

>>10826505

>No one disregards minority writers
>People on this site have literally called Baldwin and nigger and claimed him to be anti-white.

There is certainly a prejudice in act. Maybe you do not have it but it does have a presence.

You're kind of going on a tangent though. I get that any post referencing idpol may appear like another call for Marxist hegemony but I'm just trying to have a discussion. Trust me, I'm not for the leftist agenda of "assimilate or you're a piece of shit". I just think people ought to not be averse to things because of some sort of gossip they've heard.

>>10826505
This tbqh. By any /pol/-tard's standards I'd be a cuck because I admit, say, black people deal with problems whites don't, and so on. But because I hate and ridicule SJWs, I'd be seen as a douchey white nationalist and chauvinist according to most of the mainstream media and liberal culture and the average millennial.

Look at Harold Bloom. I doubt he's really at all racist or sexist and won't admit that minorities have a harder time in the West in certain respects and women have been oppressed throughout history and misogyny is widespread, but just for harshly criticizing SJW presence in academia and literature as lowering literary standards and over-politicizing literature at the expense of beauty and meaning, he's been called a fascist, a douchebag, a backwards reactionary, and so on.

>>10826539
> People on this site have literally called Baldwin a nigger

4chan is not the basis for determining how "normal" people act. Since the creation of the site, there has been either blatant racism or blatant shock-value "racism. The things I'm ranting about are my response to the leftist movement as a whole, not specifically using 4chan as an example.

> You're kind of going on a tangent though
You're right. I'm sorry. It's easy to get heated over discussions like this.

>Trust me, I'm not for the leftist agenda
That's fine, I'm not trying to accuse you, just explaining how I see it.

>I just think people ought to not be averse to things because of some sort of gossip they heard
That's an understandable point, but in a somewhat hypocritical way, I refuse to read that until this leftist fervor either disappears or is restructured because I think reading that would be "supporting the movement" There are plenty of other things to study in the meantime, and those books will already be there.

But to answer your original question, I don't think people (/lit/ or otherwise) who agree with my point above will read those books because of what I stated; they don't want to further that specific SJW agenda.

>>10826308
>is called the western canon
>why arent these non-european, non-western mediocre authors included? Stop being so exclusive

>>10826361

This tbqh. Find your own canon.

You have a good point OP, but just a little reminder, you are using 4chan, what do you expect?

My opinion here is similar to Žižek's point about colonialism: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k7RyVmZWuzs
That is, I don't think incorporating particular national literatures into the western canon is a radical gesture or even necessarily increases diversity. The fact that people all over the world appropriate the western canon and consider themselves an extension of western culture is precisely its genius and cause of vitality. If you want to claim that the western canon is limited by focusing itself on Greece, Rome, medieval Christendom etc., this implies that current western society is some kind of direct extension of these historical cultures, but that's a pretty strange thought. Many Christian classics originate from the Middle East, as does the philosophical legacy of aristotelianism, platonism etc. That is, the modern West has itself appropriated this tradition and claimed it as the Western tradition, but it is by no means a tradition of solely white european males. I live in Eastern Europe, but I claim the same literary tradition as someone living in the anglo world - isn't this an incredible fact by itself? Why resist it?

Not quite on topic but relevant; most of the issues with this board lie within the fact that /pol/ exists. I wish this site blocked one's IP from /lit/ the moment one posts in /pol/. This is already the best board on 4chan and its value would skyrocket if something like that were implemented.

The Western Canon is already multicultural, a polyglot monument of paper and ink built by people coming from all manner of walks of life, and all manner of cultures, languages, beliefs, spanning over two a half millennia. Indian and Chinese literature have canonical works of their own, if for whichever reason your language or area doesn't have its own paper monument just yet, I suggest you leave the others' alone, and find something worth writing, as I suspect your envy may not stand the test of time.

>>10826308
>>>/reddit/

>>10826518
Leftists can't even appreciate 'nonwestern' cultures in their own right as distinct traditions: you will rarely see them discuss Indian philosophy or classical chinese literature and many of the works in those fields remain woefully untranslated. They are only interested in them insofar as they are 'oppressed' or 'marginalized' by 'the west' a concept which they unquestiningly reify and which has long been emptied of meaning. Muh Identities are mass produced ahistorical bundles of labels and affects and art has been reduced to a purely technical administrative question

>>10826601
Yes, just ban any ideas that you don't like. That's the liberal way

The canon is specific tradition and many works aren't going to fit into it. Why does /lit/ tell you that you need to read certain works before going on to others, because the canon is a conversation and you won't understand what is being reacted to if you haven't done the prerequisite reading. Why would you add authors to the canon that don't converse with it or react to it in any meaningful way?

This is why the east have their own canon and tradition. They didn't interact with the western tradition for a long time so obviously it has it's own separate sphere. I guess you just have differing voices where people want these 'diverse authors' to be included in the canon and others who just want to disregard the tradition entirely.

Plus you can't really just decide to make something canonical in the first place, like it's a list you just add to. Many authors who were touted as great by esteemed critics/writers/artists in the past are completely forgotten.

>>10826624
uuuh thanks for strawmanning the heck out of your perceived enemies, sweetie.

>>10826624
Exactly. The leftist has no interest in what constitutes greatness in other cultures. They're only interested in what makes them, today -- according to leftists --, oppressed. They would hate to see something beautiful walk this earth, without trying to defile it. Their hatred of life knows no bounds. It is a hatred of life, as a biological question, a biological, organic phenomenom. They are worshippers of death.
You'll never see a leftist asking that the Gita be included in the Canon, but they'll be push some contemporary second-rate authors.

>>10826308
nice bait

>>10826601
>everyone who doesn't agree with me is from /pol/
>they should be banned so that I can enjoy only those who think like me
>it is impossible to hold a discourse against multiculturalism and against affirmative action which trumps literary value, without being a meme-spouting nazi
I know this is said often, but you literally should go to reddit. The downvote system makes it so that in a given subreddit, everyone will agree. I bet there's one for leftism and literature. You'll enjoy yourself much more.

>>10826576

That's valid I see where you're coming from. It's an annoying agenda to even be in close proximity to.

>>10826580

There are already non-europeans included in the canon. The West does not mean "white europeans only".

>>10826596

This is a fine opinion, however, I don't think many people see it this way. I think that people do perceive it as nothing more than the pure genius of European anglos uninspired by anything but their own big white brains. And on that basis it should not be tampered with. As you've said yourself, it is an amalgamation of ideas from a myriad of cultures. Because of that, I don't see why we should pretend that it needs to remain insular when the ideas never were in the first place.

>>10826624

Yes I believe many people are like this but I think there are also a lot who aren't. It's just interesting to see another culture's take on life, not because of the social capital they have as an oppressed person necessarily, but because different cultures view things differently. I get what you're speaking against, but don't get off thinking that it's everyone.

>>10826634

I see what you're getting at and I think that makes sense. I think we may need more time to tell if there would be any worthy contenders to diversify the canon. But to assume that there cannot be and that the only purpose of this is to eradicate tradition and replace with with substanceless idpol is inappropriate imo.

>>10826637
Hilarious paranoia. Most leftists have no particular problem with the western canon, they concern themselves with practical problems in contemporary capitalism. Of course, your whole pathology is identifying the postmodern academia of literary criticism as "the left" and assigning everything bad in western culture as their doing. Newsflash, Marxists have better shit to do than worry about who counts as literature.

>>10826663
>>10826632
>>10826601

Yeah I don't think we should just get rid of pol but I do see where he's coming from. I think what he means is that the influence of pol allows people to think more insular and reject any sort of idea that is foreign to them without giving it further scrutiny. For example, I've seen Malcolm X discussed on pol and people just claimed he was an idiot because he's black. I've seen others go onto say that the best part of his book was when he gave up on black people. Both of these things are untrue and a result of the sort of prejudice ridden perspectives of pol. It's not that pol shouldn't have an opinion. But we can't deny that they have an immense amount of uneducated ones and this results in a cluttering of discussion. I don't mind to have a talk about why we shouldn't have welfare or foodstamps, or why it's not necessary to read a black author. That's a fine talk to have, even if I disagree. But it's not fine when the conversation doesn't get to happen because it's met with "HAHAHA SHUT UP NIGGER" and nothing gets done.

>>10826679
'Non idpol' leftists are a tiny minority who is despised by the rest of the left.

>>10826679
The left is all that strives towards nothingness. Thus anything christian is leftist. All that sues for general peace, peace of the heart, of the mind, --- no more quarrel, peace at last ; and for everyone : happiness ; and most of all, sleep, the last, the great ---- sleep. That, is the left. All those who wish to bring about the kingdom of Ends, all the preachers of death, of equality, of meekness, of peace : those are leftist.

>>10826686
Sometimes I wish we actually followed the global rules desu.
For racism to be so widespread on an anonymous imageboard is fucking retarded, anyway. For all you idiots know, I could be posting from an african country right now and nobody would know just because I speak English. Yet people get constantly called shitskins and subhumans when expressing non-/pol/ opinions. I'm tired of their shit, they've been ruining every board on this website for years and I have absolutely no problem with banning them for posting /pol/ propaganda. I'm a commie but I don't post commie catchphrases every day or reside on commie forums. Get a goddamned life.

>>10826721
>I'm tired of their shit, they've been ruining every board on this website for years and I have absolutely no problem with banning them for posting /pol/ propaganda. I'm a commie but I don't post commie catchphrases every day or reside on commie forums.
Are you gonna break in tears over words on your computer screen? Kill yourself, faggot.

>>10826723
No, I'll continue attempting to have fruitful discussions while every single thread devolves into stupid bullshit about the Jews, white civilization and the nigger menace.

All these people defending /pol/ or free speech or whatever the hell it is you are arguing for are being irrational. /pol/ stifles the conversation to the point that you can't actually have a conversation. It is one thing to have a discussion with people who disagree with you, it is entirely something else to have someone spout bullshit rhetoric with no value so loudly that real conversation gets drowned out.

>>10826728
Literally never happens. You're a weak little bitch.

>>10826741
Not to mention that according to their ideology many here would be executed multiple times over.

>>10826741
>All these people defending /leftypol/ or free speech or whatever the hell it is you are arguing for are being irrational. /leftypol/ stifles the conversation to the point that you can't actually have a conversation. It is one thing to have a discussion with people who disagree with you, it is entirely something else to have someone spout bullshit rhetoric with no value so loudly that real conversation gets drowned out.

It wouldn't be the western canon if it included non western authors. Why is diversity always given this blanket unquestioned support as if it's always a good thing?

>>10826760
What was the point of this post anon?

>>10826704

this reads like a poem lmao

>you will have a more nuanced perspective on life than what you get from primarily European writers
only cultures rooted in Europe are introspective enough to do self-criticism of any kind, only Europeans ever did anthropology, if it was 四大名著 instead of the Western canon you'd be having a thread on what is the best age to read each novel to strengthen the nation

>>10826760

>leftypol is the real menace
>implying pol doesn't do this just as much as the left

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to discuss something involving black people and literally just being shut down with "i wont argue with a nigger". Both are arrogant and ignorant.

>>10826767

>Thinking multiculturalism means non Western

There is more than one culture that exists in the Western hemisphere anon.

>>10826778
>I've tried to discuss something involving black people
Why would you do that?

>>10826788

So? That doesn't make the Japanese man living in California a part of the western tradition. It doesn't matter who lives here.

>>10826704
>>10826637

>>10826814

It does if the Japanese man's family had been in American since the 19th century.

>>10826308
>nd I think it's simply because people have normalized the presence of whiteness in literature to a point where they can't even conceive that the culture of these writers will influence their themes, perspectives, writing, etc.
I don't know if this is a meme thread or not, but I actually agree with this. A lot of time people argue white artists write for everyone when really they write for themselves but since both are white the reader assumes it's everyone.

>>10826825

Why are white people in the United States considered a part of the western tradition as opposed to the native American tradition?

>>10826361
Are you saying that the Bible as well as non-whites like Augustine of Hippo, Michel de Montaigne, Henri Bergson, Marcel Proust and Franz Kafka are not part of the Western canon?

>>10826845
>non-whites like Michel de Montaigne, Henri Bergson, Marcel Proust and Franz Kafka

>>10826518
>You seem to think that a desire for diversity is inherently a desire to erase tradition.
It does, faggot.

>>10826852
Yes, they are all people of colour except for maybe Proust, who had a white father.

>>10826858
>american education

>>10826860
I’m Russian

>>10826858
>Yes, they are all people of colour except for maybe Proust, who had a white father.
>mutt projection

>>10826865
But Proust was literally a mutt, he had a Jewish mother and a French father

>>10826864
How are you even able to use a computer?

>>10826867
>thinks american 21st century racial distinctions apply to Europe
Europeans don't understand race like mutts do.

>>10826867
Speaking of mutts, Pushkin and Dumas were both quadroons, but nobody would dispute that they are part of the Western canon despite their non-white ancestry

>>10826518
>I disagree with that, I think your implying a slippery slope that isn't necessarily inevitable. I'm arguing that we should take the excellence of these marginalized cultures an include them
Reread my post
>The canon is a vague list of books considered to be aesthetically the best and most influential
>>>>>and most influential

>i'm saying "don't disregard talent because it doesn't fit into an insular definition of literature".
I live in a small irrelevant European country that has produced some incredible talents. Outside of my country those writers are complete obscurities. Mere talent is not what gets you into the canon, you need influence too. And, as I said, black writers in the western cultural hemisphere are nearly completely irrelevant.

>>10826868
Our internet connection speed is actually higher than that of the US

>>10826884
Is that how you hacked the election?

>>10826704
what?

>435 elaborated troll post

>>10826308
Everyone above and below this post is retarded and I hope you all die painful and ironic deaths. Suck it losers.

Convince me that diversity is not anti-white.

fuck off orientalist

wow race realism, anherbe much?

wow race realism and cultural appropriation, ahnenerbe much?

>>10826882
Boomers and other Afro-fetishists view blacks as the only diversity that matters. They cannot comprehend that Christianity plays a huge role in Western culture and being European or from the diaspora also plays a huge role. It's why Jews also aren't Western.

>>10826874
The left has nobody but themselves to blame for the fact that people in the year 2018 are less willing to accept non-whites than a hundred years back. You can push a narative just for so long, till the group you try to bully will stand up and protect themselves, even if it means losing out on a couple of those non-whites which would deserve it.

The tide is changing, the u18 shitposters here will be the next generation of voters. Minorities like myself warned you fucking retards for years, but what can a stupid house niBBa like me know, right? Thanks for nothing and yes, the Polaks have every right to act the way they do.

>>10826928
What sort of minority are you?

The western canon is a product of the history of the european peoples. It is called the western canon because it is based on the history of the european peoples, on what happened in that particular society in a certain period of time, it is the historical canon of the peoples of western europe, and it like that because the people who wrote it were europeans. If what is written in the canon is not european, it isn't part of the european tradition, then it isn't western, it is from the region the person who's written it comes from because that isn't the history of the west.

The western canon isn't multicultural, because it is a local canon (that is written in its own name, because it is called western (european) canon, it would be called "the universal canon" or "the multcultural canon" if it were reserved to all peoples of the world, if you're reading this on this board it is reasonable that one could assume that you can understand that).

It is offensive and disrespectful to yourselves when non westerners try to force themselves into a canon that isn't their own, because they do have their own traditions, it is true that many peoples couldn't write at a time the western canon had many great writers, but it is bad for them to ignore their own traditions instead of working in the history of their own people and rather spend their time complaining about it thinking they having no role in the european tradition is about racism or whatever. That happens because they were not part of europe. That happens among all different literary traditions, there are no western writers in the eastern canon as well, only eastern writers, for instance, and this is perfectly fine, because it is their history, it was their people who went through the things that had made that canon possible.
Why instead of complaining about it you don't think about writing your own canons and being the pioneers of your own great ideas on your own historical tradition instead of trying to change history so you can include non western people in the western canon?
That is something that erases your own identity and disrupts the sense of belonging of the people you're trying to blame for having their own history as well.
Start respecting yourselves, and your works are going to be respected. If your ideas are great, it doesn't matter what canon they are written in.

>>10826934
Permavirgin

>>10826308
>take on life
this is bogus. what's at issue is a question of emphasis- what should be emphasized in literary study-- race or fine writing in English, in Spanish, in Russian, in Latin, in Greek? The point of attack BY the racially-sexually oriented (read snottily egotistical) is that the host of predominantly male authors who have advanced the means of expression in their various languages are somehow now bogus as an object of study, which is not only a phony perpetual b8, but an excuse to be lazy.
James Baldwin and W. E. B. Dubois were strong writers (the latter even quasi-Hegelian), for instance-- but they were also readers of books. Complaining about 'the man' is one thing, but LARPing that 'the man' himself wrote all the books that teach us to extend our expression via the use of words is just silly- as both these writers knew.
Words live on- not white men, not hispanic men, not slavic men, etc.
Anyone who seriously studies lit is interested ultimately in language, not race, and certainly not 'sex'.

>>10826934
german sandnigger aka Gastarbeiter
Do you want to count my oprresion points to see if you need to consider my opinion?

>>10826928
Anti-black racism reduces America’s GDP by hundreds of billions of dollars every year (http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/20/social-justice-for-the-highly-demanding-of-rigor/)), but, of course, the real problem are those “SJWs” who protest against conservative speakers on college campuses.

>>10826308
Western = white; western literature = white literature; the western canon = the elite body of work produced by whites.

This is how it is. Non-whites have nothing to do with it, regardless of whether they were brought to the west on a jewish slave ship 300 years ago, or let into the west following the 1965 jewish-sponsored immigration act. Whether a jewish gatekeeper puts the work of non-whites in, whether the work is objectively good, rare as that is, it doesn't matter.

The western canon is an expression of our culture and our culture is an expression of our genetic and spiritual legacy as a people. It is not something anyone can be a part of, it is exclusive to us.

>>10826956
Turks are in a unique position. You have a choice and can make a difference.

>>10826959
And now counter- count what blacks waste on gibs, which they and baners get multiple times the amunt of whites. Also stop using "slate" as a source. It's like poltards using breitbart.

>>10826942
But even conservative versions of the Western canon include multiple books written by people of non-European origin. Do you think that the Bible should be excluded from the canon?

>>10826959
That's a joke. Do you know how many trillions of dollars have been spent on blacks? Blacks are a net negative force in white countries, and are dysfunctional everywhere they exist.

>>10826308
canon literally means "rule"

multiculturalism is all about dissolving all concrete rules of a society so that that society is able to function as a neutral territory where other external cultures can survive and thrive. so multiculturalism is all about destroying a canon so that external canons can occupy that space without any pushback

Literature is white. These other races are only mimicking our culture, they are not a part of it

>>10826308
if that were true, then why are all the X* studies academic degrees do shit scholarship when engaging any foreign tradition on their own terms and instead turn every foreign culture into a western liberal victim cult?

>>10826970
>And now counter- count what blacks waste on gibs, which they and baners get multiple times the amunt of whites.

There would be poor people in the US even if there wouldn’t be any non-whites there, and the American government would have to pay the same amount of money to them, or maybe even more considering that all homogenous European countries have much larger welfare states than the US

>Also stop using "slate" as a source.

That’s not Slate, that’s Scott Alexander’s blog.

>>10826972
>meds aren't white
my least favorite g*rmanic meme
worse than even the reformation

>>10826308
why don't create their own canon then? there's no meaning in diluting something that was already working with something new that may or may not work

>>10826960

>It's 2018 and Americans think Western means white
>The Canon is "muh Anglo circle jerk"
>There are several non anglos in the Canon

Uhhh

>>10826993
>There would be poor people in the US even if there wouldn’t be any non-whites
There would be less, and therefore less to spent. I seriously hope that wasn't your argument. Further it would give more jobopportunities without illegals in there for those willing to work lower wages.

>it's not Slate
>it's a blog
Yeah, that makes it so much better lol

>>10826975
The US spends less money on poor people than any other developed country.

>>10826993
>even if there wouldn’t be any non-whites there, and the American government would have to pay the same amount of money to them
But that's not the case. The amount spent on blacks is much higher than amount spent on whites.

>>10826997
Middle Easterners are cleary not white

>>10827006
Yeah, because those poor people still need to fly or swim through two ozeans to get there if they aren't beaners, while germany gets half the worl into their social services.

>>10826984

>People drawing from a culture that they didn't invent is wrong


So do you wanna erase the legacy of every white musician that took from blacks in the mid 20th century too?

>>10827016
Blaccks only had somethings thanks to whites.

>>10827004
>Further it would give more jobopportunities without illegals in there for those willing to work lower wages.

Ever heard of factor prize equilization?

>Yeah, that makes it so much better lol

You still haven’t made any arguments against this article

>>10827020
WE

>>10827028
>jazz
>literally only thanks to europeans instrument and slavery aka black domestication

>>10826972
>But even conservative versions of the Western canon include multiple books written by people of non-European origin.
But the canon is still european regardless of that, because it's supposed to tell the history of europe. What the question in the OP talks about is basically "why in the european writing tradition there aren't as many non european writers as there are european authors". What I've written in my previous post is the reason why. Why aren't there as many european writers in the islamic canon as there are muslim authors? For the same reason. There might be a few, but they are present because their ideas might have impacted the history of that people at some point, but that doesn't mean that the history being impacted by thw writtings of those few authors is their own history. Having a few non european writers doesn't change the reality that the canon is the history of europe instead of the history of the places these few writers came from.
>Do you think that the Bible should be excluded from the canon?
Of course not, should the old testament prophets be erased from the koran once their writings play a role in the teachings of muhammad? That's a ridiculous question, should the entire writing history of a people change because of such a small detail? That's delusional

>>10826975

It's another "poor people deserve to be eradicated" episode. Gee, I wonder how pols big ol' brains seemed to overlook the basic human function of compassion and wanting to help others instead of just kill what you dont understand.

>Inb4 blacks can't be helped they're all dumb niggers

Yeah I get that it's easy to say that when you aren't apart of the community. But when you're someone like me who actually did come from poverty with a single black parent who now makes 6 figures, it's pretty hard to think that it's as simple as "blacks are just dumb lel". I get that you probably value statistics more than communication and understanding other humans but life is a lot more nuanced than surface level observations and conclusions based in prejudice. Wanting to give up on somebody with potential just because it's hard isn't an objectively correct philosophy anon.

>>10827031
WUZ

>>10827006
That's not even remotely true.

>>10827042
This is not about "poor people" idiot, it's about race. Whites in a homogeneous nation will willingly help out their own underclass. The problem is that the US had a historic underclass of niggers and Europe is importing an underclass of various semites and Africans.

>>10827007

>History of America involves whites being systematically in advantage compared with blacks in America

>Black labor built a large part of the country but the circumstances left them at a huge economic and psychological disadvantage after the abolition

>Let's just kick them out since we're done using them and we've helped to stir the pot of an already shitty situation

I don't understand this. I mean, I get it from a logical perspective completely void of empathy but. Past that I don't get it.

>>10827063
>300 years later blacks still can't integrate into america because muh slavery
>irish and chinks which were literally in concentration camps are better integrated and cause les crimes than the anglo white
Noggin jogging, as they say.

>>10827020

>Whites gave the tools but blacks created the product so the credit is still due to whites

So I'm guessing the innovations made with gun powder after Europeans got it from the Chinese should be credited to the Chinese? Or maybe the Greeks shouldn't be credited with their contributions to philosophy because some had been influenced by Egyptians?
This is an absurd argument.

>>10827050
Name a single developed country that spends less on welfare than the US

>>10827063
Blacks are violent and dysfunctional by nature. Trillions of white tax dollars have been spent on them and they have done no better. The problem is biological, and at a certain point it doesn't make any sense for us to keep trying. You are under the egalitarian delusion that blacks can defy millennia of evolution and magically become like white people, and that if they can't achieve this it's white people's fault. This is a false narrative that ignores reality and is based on exploiting white people's emotions, which is why you mistakenly equate it with a failure of "empathy."

>>10827078
>comparing ancient enpires with a literal domesticated hybrid species whites themselves created
If I have to take reponsibility for what my farm animal does, I will take the credit for his fruits of labour.

>>10827062

>Whites living in a homogenous nation will willingly help out their underclass

Citation needed. That's such a hilarious claim I really would like to see how you back it up.

>>10827085
>per capita is irrelevant
Nice try.

>>10827071
>implying that anti-black racism isn’t significantly stronger than anti-Irish and anti-Chinese racism
>implying that anti-black racism doesn’t have a large negative effect on the social mobility of blacks

>>10827085
>>10827006
You said the US spends the least on poor people. Now you're saying the opposite?

>>10827093
Name a single developed country that spends less on welfare per capita than the US

>>10827096
>it's just due to racism
No, senpai, the irish were seen as lower animals than the blacks, and were therefore cheaper slaves. The chinks were hated more than blacks ever were and literally put int concentration camps. Your stupid ass sgould start reading actual history instead of falling for the muh slavery meme regarding blacks.

>>10827098
Are you literally retarded?

>>10827091
That's why western European countries were happy to implement expansive social systems and programs and the US wasn't. The underclass in European countries is their own, in America the underclass is African. It's naturally for people to care more about their own.

>>10827099
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending#Per_capita

Ireland 9,621.6 9,683.8 6,018.2
Spain 8,635.9 8,367.4 5,686.0
United Kingdom 8,619.4 8,216.5 6,828.2
Australia 8,479.8 7,053.1 5,889.0
Japan 8,442.2 7,484.4 5,586.0
Canada 7,506.1 7,098.1 5,914.4
New Zealand 7,121.6 6,314.7 4,557.3
Portugal 7,121.2 6,596.2 4,928.6
Iceland 7,092.1 6,563.6 5,719.4
Slovenia 6,978.3 6,458.7 5,120.9
Czech Republic 6,089.2 5,328.9 4,027.6
Israel 5,382.2 4,636.0 4,038.1
Hungary 5,314.1 4,970.8 3,784.5
Slovak Republic 4,963.3 4,393.9 2,609.6
Estonia 4,304.9 3,862.9 2,141.4
Latvia 3,243.0 3,258.0 1,723.3
South Korea 3,048.1 2,523.3 1,481.1
Turkey 2,559.1 2,055.7 1,170.0
Chile 2,137.0 1,901.2 1,101.9

>>10827103
I’m pretty sure that millions of Irish and Chinese people were not enslaved in the US for several centuries

>>10827116
Irish were, even before the blacks you retard. The US literally bought irish orphans as slaves from oversees.

>>10827119
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth

>>10826601
/leftypol/ exists, if you want a forum where non-leftists are banned you have one

>>10827071

>Thinking slavery was the only external factor contributing to the denigration of blacks in America

In the 1920s black Wall Street was a section in Oklahoma that was economically prosperous and entirely funded by black businesses. It was bombed and burned to the ground by whites killing about 300 blacks.

Between the 50s and 70s "gangs" were started in black sections of integrated neighborhood in order to fend off harassment by racists. After white flight happened these gangs decided to govern their communities and eventually became known as the Black Panthers whose primary focus was cultivating a better environment in black communities through a myriad of programs and resources. However, they were deemed a national threat to the Government and were dismantled by govt influence which involved turning leaders against each other and causing general dismay. From here we get the street gangs that fell far from their original intention of just helping their own community and now operate much similarly to any corrupt and self serving person.

In the 1980s the government allowed thousands of dollars of crack to be driven into black neighborhoods so that they could profit off of it and use the money to fight communists. This also contributed to the denigration of the black community. This was followed by the war of drugs which mass incarcerated blacks for drug use at a much higher percentage than whites despite whites having a higher percentage of drug use at the time.

And there are many more instances than just these of government involvement contributing to the denigration of the black community. This post isn't to say that "blacks dindu nothin it's all whiteys fault". Of course we fucked ourselves over by being selfish and short sighted but to imply that it is our fault alone despite the government having documented involvement with fucking black people over is ignorant.

>>10826679
>Most leftists
those leftists don't exist anymore, they have either been cannibalized and destroyed or they are reactionaries now

>>10827123
>wikipedia is a source for anything political
https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2occ7m/wikipedias_cultural_marxism_article_now_redirects/

>>10826778
so you get insulted in /pol/ and banned in /leftypol/, there's a difference

>>10827139

Anon the wiki link was for the sake of convenience. If you read the sources listed in the link you will see that the myth has been well debunked.

>>10827154
>one source on politically motivated wiki says its debunked, so all theose other sources don't count
You people are willfully ignorant just to keep the poor niBBa narrative alife. Sad. Many such cases.

>>10827092

>The fruits of black labor are credited to white people but when black people fuck up it's their own fault

>>10827063
Liberia and Haiti are both poor and we're free long before US blacks. It is about race and the culture produced by those races. If there were a black nation that was not poor and dysfunctional, you might have a point.

>>10827165

>Some sources say it's debunked and others don't so one person is clearly wrong.

Let's just say both arguments are wrong so I can get to the more integral point.

See
>>10827134

And tell me again how the history of blacks in America is comparable with Ireland's relationship with the British.

>>10827134
If the government conspired to fuck me over like that I would leave. Why do you even bother? Just go.

>>10827176

>If there were a black nation that was not poor an dysfunctional you might have a point

You mean the civilizations in Africa prior to baleful European influence? Mali empire? Kush empire?

>>10827194

>I would just leave

Wow gee I never thought of that one! I can't imagine that being apart of a diaspora, having an underdeveloped Homeland which is largely due to external influence, and general anti black propaganda being sold universally might make that a bit difficult!

>Pol isn't the problem
>Thread starts as a discussion on the nature of multiculturalism and how we should take it in relation to the Canon
>Thread becomes about how blacks are inferior and should be kicked out of America
>Pol isn't the problem

>>10827139
Ah, yes, reddit is much better source than Wikipedia

>>10827063
>reddit spacing
>soyboy liberalism
ugh.

>>10827139
>people now link to reddit as if it were somewhat acceptable and no one seems to mind
The asbolute state of /lit/, everyone.

>>10827212
Oh shut your mouth. A whole promised continent full of natural resources, infinite opportunities for people educated in the West, and black people being the ruling class for once, but you'd rather pay whitey's own govt. to fuck your second class citizen ass.

>>10827249
>unironically using the word “soyboy”

>>10827230
>contrarian imageboard
>people say things that will make you mad
really makes you think

>>10826845
>Augustine of Hippo, Michel de Montaigne, Henri Bergson, Marcel Proust and Franz Kafka

Those are all whites you ignorant blithering retard, yes even Augustine

>>10827198
Mali did not produce anything of note. Kush has nothing to do with west Africans.

>reddit leftists ITT

>>10827287
You stupid fuck. Proust and Kafka are kikes.

>>10826308
Using your logic I should read books on absolutely every subject there is, for the sake of expanding my perspective. Guess what, there's not enough time in life for that, I'd rather focus on authors whose quality is guaranteed, who I know are the building pillars of the world I live in and to top it off resonate with my western values. There is not a single philosopher on the level of the Greeks outside of Europe. India had some important intellectuals, but not on the level of the Greeks. I won't have a hissy fit though if an Indian chooses to read Indian works, I find that completely understandable. It's much more fitting to his reality. Not everyone has this mentality that they can live anywhere in the world, most people want to be in the place they feel they belong. A natural extension of that is connecting to culture at least somewhat related to that place and its realities.
And I don't care if you think it's elitist to think so, African authors are shit. It's always the same woe is me bullcrap, read one of them and you've read them all. Following my previous logic, I find it completely understandable if an African wants to read African authors. But don't come telling me I should read what I regard as shit for the sake of "let's be multicultural guise!". Why don't you eat rotten food once in a while for the sake of broadening your perspective then? Hell, jump in front of a car, it's all about different experiences.

>>10827287
>ywn single-handedly reconquer Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, create a new Pentarchy and generate a new christian canon
feels pretty bad man

>>10827287
Augustine was a berber while Montaigne, Bergson and Kafka were Jews.

>>10827295
>religion has something to do with skin color
So I'm Chinese if I like Buddhism?

>>10827309
he already said they were all white, why repeat it?

>>10827310
Unlike Chritians and Muslims, Jews are an ethnoreligious group. I thought this is a well known fact, or are you just pretending to be retarded?

>>10827313
a white ethnoreligious group, what part do you fail to understand?

>>10827312
I’m pretty sure that Middle Easterners are not Europeans.

>>10827310
Jews are a race of semites from the middle east, you stupid fuck squared.

>>10827319
so why are the greeks part of the canon if they look more like middle easterns?

>>10827313
So are they black? asian? latino? I'm pretty sure they're white,y ou dumb liberal cock-sucking faggot.

>>10827291

That's not what you asked. You asked me to show you functioning black civilizations and I did. The two I listed aren't the totality of African civilization throughout history. >>10827294
I answered your question and now you're making a new one because??

>>10827318
Holy shit, it's no wonder so many retards on here don't understand the jewish problem.

>>10827332
there's no question

>>10827322
>>10827318
>imposing 21st century american racial categories on 16th century europeans
Protip : your concept of "white" was developed in the late 19th century and never crossed the Atlantic.

>>10827339
yes, white is an american meme for rootless people, nobody is disputing that

>>10827325
Are you really this stupid?

>>10827337
The post said 'problem' not 'question.'

>>10827318
>For populations of the Jewish diaspora, the genetic composition of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jewish populations show significant amounts of shared Middle Eastern ancestry[1][2][3] According to Behar and colleagues (2010), this is "consistent with an historical formulation of the Jewish people as descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelites of the Levant"
>Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Druze, Palestinians,[4][28][5][46] Bedouin,[28][5] Lebanese and other Levantines cluster near one another genetically. Many studies have found that Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews are to non-Jewish Europeans or Africans.[28][5][35] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Israeli and Palestinian Arabs and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

>>10827327
They are predominantly Middle Eastern/Levantine/Semitic

>mutts discussing Montaigne's and Proust's ancestries

>>10827294

My bad didn't mean to reply to you lmao

>>10827346
>>10827322
>>10827318
>>10827313
>>10827309
>>10827295
las abominaciones de las americas ...

>>10827339
>>10827318
>>10827310
Who can be surprised that people arguing about how race isn't important turn out to not even have a basic understanding of it?

>>10827356
I’m Russian

>>10827361
la creatura ...

>>10827348
Proust was a kike and you're repeating a kike talking point. Gain some awareness, idiot.

>>10826322
nigger

>>10827374

>>10827374
el goblino muy atrocio ...

>>10827356
>>10827366
>>10827373
>>10827384
I sense a 16 year old Argentinian kike trying to divert the discussion away from his people.

>>10827361
la atrocidad de las tenebras

>>10827392

I think this thread illustrates very well the reason why multiculturalism doesn't work. People love to say the multicultural element is supposed to "improve" things, but here we are, having the need to explain to the multicultural posters why the european literary tradition is majority european and why the other canons of other civilizations also have their own writers being the native locals as the majority instead of some people most of them didn't even know existed 600 years ago.

What makes me sad is that they do understand that, deep down they do know this is true (otherwise they wouldn't be readers or wouldn't give a shit about literature), but for some reason they refuse to acknowledge that and rather start unecessary discussions based on their own mental gymnastics thing that is supposed to "validate" the claim that they have a right to include their own canon into the canon of a different people with a different story and a different literary tradition.

I didn't insult anyone in the posts I made in this thread, I don't think people from different races are inferior either, but I do acknowledge the fact that all peoples have their own unique traditions and their own unique ways of seeing the world. That is why we have many different canons, instead of just one. The reason why you read the western canon more than others is either because you live in the west, or your society has taken a western tradition as a point of reference for its own recent history. That is why the chinese read karl marx, for instance. Marx is in the chinese canon, but that doesn't mean marx is chinese or that the chinese canon needs 50% of its writers to be germans of jewish origins.

A non european writer can also have great ideas, some of you mentioned great authors in this thread. But saying that you need them in the western canon because they see things differently is exactly the reason they shouldn't be in the western canon. The western canon is the european perception of things, it is the western literary tradition. If someone wants to read an author with a non european perspective, they can read other canons, it is wrong to call that part of the european tradition.

You may disagree with this, it's fine, but things would be better if those posters/authors cared more about their own cultures to the point they wouldn't even care about being listed in a canon that is foreign to them. They would have stronger communities and a better sense of identity among their own ethnic groups. Unfortunately, that's not what happens when multiculturalism is a thing. And then, you end up reading such a long post instead of discussing great literature from different and interesting original canons.

>>10827392

>>10826308
>no multiculturalism in the western cannon
>only people from the west
Wow really makes you think, doesn't it?

>>10827402
based seriousposter, multiculturalism in the western canon is ironically just more american cultural imperialism

>>10827356
I’m not disputing that most Americans are mongrelized subhumans, but why do you seem so irritated by the well known fact that Jews have Levantine origins?

>>10826679
>Marxists have better shit to do than worry about who counts as literature.
not really, no

>>10826308
Why do Americans do this????? Stop mixing your 21st century shite and failing political ideas with everything.

>>10827418
Literally don't give a fuck about that, and only a retarded mutt cares so much.

>>10826960
Western comes from Western hemisphere. Meaning all of Europe and The Americas or are you saying Latin American literature is not Western? Dumas is not Western? kek

>>10826601
Go back to red dit, that's clearly what you're looking for. Try /r/againsthatesubreddits or /r/enoughtrumpspam

>>10826308
>implying europe isn't inherently multicultural without needing any non europeans

>>10826984
"White" is not a culture. Are you retarded? The Swedes are the same as the Germans? kek

>>10827431
Are you a self-hating Jew or something?

>>10826679
Kek """Real""" marxists are basically a non factor in current times. Even altright turds have more relevancy than you chucklefucks haha

>>10827439
No, but I'm not a dumb rootless American mutt who counts down every part of his ancestry down to the last %. I don't give a fuck about the genetic origin of kikes, because I'm not insecure about genetic origin and ancestry.

>>10826942
It's is disrespectiful to throw ourselves at the western canon but it's A OK to throw youselves at our lands and rape, pillage and enslave everyone.
Ok.

>>10827318

>>10827467
>It's is disrespectiful to throw ourselves at the western canon but it's A OK to throw youselves at our lands and rape, pillage and enslave everyone.
t. sheltered suburban white kid

>>10827472
Not even american lad, being suburban in my country is a bad thing btw

>>10827467
except i'm not an amerimutt, and it's amerimutts themselves pushing the multicultural meme into other societies

>>10827481
Wich country?>>10827482

>>10826308
A lot of it is a reaction to the "dead white European males" and "anti-elitist" BS. A lot of it is that the promoted authors aren't as good. If multiculturalism means Machado de Assis, Lady Murasaki, Ralph Ellison, Chinua Achebe, Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o, Louise Erdich, etc. I don't think so many people would object. If it means writers chosen to fill a quota but who aren't any good, then ultimately it isn't doing much good.

>>10827392
Honestly wouldn't doubt it, argentinians have an astounding proportion of kikes.
t. brazilian

>>10827493
Writers like Dickens, Twain, Poe and Hemmingway, from the top of my head, are memed a lot by the american status quo as well, but any time anyone mentions this, a procession of angry retards who think themselves the actual heirs to these authors (might as well be in the sense that they're all hacks) comes out of the woods to have their autistic anglo meltdowns.
>>10827498
Well, Brazil doesn't have that much jews and yet a bunch of our intellectuals are jewish, another fair share of them being black. So, once again, the white man shows his inferiority, huh

>>10827392
So every argie degenerate is a kike? Why am I not surprised?

>>10827504
And that's ignoring every other crypto-jew/muslim descendants we have. Truly pathetic whities.

>>10827402
Based.

>>10827450
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>i'm not insecure about genetic origin and ancestry
This is the most kikey of things you could have said you retard. It's the same reasoning behind braindead Buzzfeed writers saying anyone who criticizes trannies is a closeted tranny. Further, you are the one with the mutt mindset, thinking white is only a skin color. The EUROPEAN cannon is composed of Europeans. Jews are not European, they are middle eastern.

Jews shitting up yet another thread on /lit/, for shame.

>>10827543
>yfw you extinguido'd la luz

>>10827549
>>10827543
>>10827510
>>10827508
>>10827504
>>10827498
>>10827493
>>10827482
>>10827481
>>10827472
>>10827467
>>10827450
>>10827446
>>10827439
>>10827438
>>10827437
>>10827433
>>10827432
>>10827431
>>10827421
>>10827420
>>10827418
>>10827417
>>10827411
see
>>10827537

>>10827402
You wrote this giant wall of text but failed to account for american writers being included in the cannon willy nilly while also ignorning the non-european influences on the WESTERN cannon.
The truth is, Europe FORCIBLY included a bunch of other people's under their sphere of influence - which subsequently passed on to the US - and by their own actions, they included peoples that wouldn't be under the Western umbrella in it, and now they act defensively when these people who were, once again, FORCIBLY included under western influence, try to be part of the society in which they were raised.
Maybe don't try to convert and colonize 3/4 of the world next time and you won't have to deal with this.

Leftists ITT should fuck off back to rebbit and mutts to /pol/.

>>10827504
>Brazil doesn't have that much jews and yet a bunch of our intellectuals are jewish,
I suppose you meant *your intellectuals*. Brazilian intellectuals aren't that influential, I thought that was swelf evident. A good number of them are famous in here because they are BR and, well, that's what we have. If they were Europeans they would be forgotten for the same reason a soundcloud rapper would pass unnoticed if inserted in 19th century Europe, alongside names like Liszt and Brahms.
And even though Brazil doesn't have such a high percentage of jews, they have an unproportionate influence. The debate about the reason for that has been debated elsewhere several times and I don't think there's the need to derail this thread into that topic. All I'll say is even simple folk are starting to notice, on their own, certain dishonest behaviors. The only ones blind to it are teenagers/early 20s who spend their days with face glued in their smartphone and haven't read a book in years. Anyone who has gone out in the real world notices it sooner or later. Yes, even non whites.

>>10827568
The problem is that we decolonized

>>10827568

>Maybe don't try to convert and colonize 3/4 of the world next time and you won't have to deal with this.

Are you supporting diversity in an effort to punish what you perceive to be historical wrongs? Maybe the Stormfags weren't wrong and diversity actually is code for anti-white.

>>10827601

No I think he's saying diversity is the product of colonialism and it's absurd to reject it. It reminds me of Frankenstein creating the monster out of his own desire but abandoning it when it didn't turn out how he wanted and getting mad when it asked to be loved. I think this is rhe relationship that colonialists have with the oppressed.

"We brought you here and raised you here for our own gain but now you're not allowed to be apart of the things we produced ourselves"

It's not that diversity is punishment more like, you helped make this mess and you have to take some accountability for it.

>>10827782
Thanks, this is precisely what I meant. Also, >>10827601 I'm a leftist but I don't think there's anything particularly positive or negative about multiculturalism and I mostly disagree about how it's handled today.

>>10827782
>>10827803
Why must this occur in our countries rather than theirs though?

>>10827568
All the nations in america originally were an extension of europe during colonial times and some even afterwards, america particularly until 1965, that's why most of the writers that lived in the new world that are in the canon are ethnic europeans, because they were westerners and they wrote about things under a european perspective.
I didn't fail in explaining anything, you're the one that failed in taking anything of value out of an insightful post. If you want to read non european authors, it's fine, but just don't go around trying to convince people that they are part of the european literary tradition, that's as wrong for the western canon as it is for the canon it should be listed in. Take pride in your authors as your own, instead of trying to give them away to a canon that isn't part of the history/tradition of your people. I still can't understand why posters like you still keep the mental gymnastics thing once you do acknowledge the authors you're making a case for do not write from a european perspective, for the exact same reasons you probably didn't see the post from a european perspective as well, otherwise you would've realized how unreasonable is the reply you wrote.

About non ethnic european writers, if they are in the canon then they write for europe, for the european people instead of the peoples and nations from where they originally came from, they write following the european train of thought and respecting the european literary tradition. They are a small minority, and they must remain a minority, otherwise the canon will stop being the european literary tradition.
No one is supposed to take a writer seriously if he/she writes about things that are related to other canons, has nothing to do with the european perspective of things, talks about peoples and stories that come from other traditions, peoples, and civilizations that have their own canons and identities, and then asks to be part of the western canon as if it was something reasonable to do, without even considering how offensive that actually is to their own literary canons, let alone to the people who take the european literary tradition seriously.
The day that will make sense it will be the such a weird day as the day the books of ezra pound would be considered masterpieces of literature of the canon of the nation of zimbabwe.

>>10827810
Are you seriously implying these non-western nations do not produce their own internal literature which is mostly consumed by themselves and ignored by the rest of the west?
>>10827592
>Carpeaux
>Flusser
>Rónai
>not intellectuals
loving every laugh

>>10826308
Blacks complain about not being able to relate to white characters or "dead white males" so why can't I do the opposite?

>>10827812
Tell that to Murifag Neo-Nazis who say Dumas isn't Western lit

>>10826338
Great point on oppressed voices of real talent being swallowed up by the white noise of merely adequate fiction. It is in those authors with both eyes fixed in the direction of critical inclusivity, trained as they are by exceptional colleges to check all the right boxes, and that center-right aversion to acknowledging the empirical reality that our current society is one where multiculturalism IS the West, the relative merits and demerits of that aside, whereby the Canon currently falters.

>>10827854
Dumas was a nigger, and niggers obviously aren't white, European, or "western." What are you stupid or something?

>>10827840
I wasn't referring to literature, but to the discussion on poverty.

>>10827872
>the empirical reality that our current society is one where multiculturalism IS the West
That is nothing more than a post 60s jewish narrative that has been forced on white countries. It is recent, especially in the scope of this conversation, and is completely untenable in the long term. Accepting these modern perversions to western civilization's identity and culture is foolish. The canon represents European man's literary achievements alone.

>>10827874
>Born in France
>French nationality
>Wrote in French
>Part of the French tradition
>His worked influenced Western lit.
>Not Western.

Are you Richard Spencer or something? Saying Dumas' lit is not Western lit... The absolute state of this board.

>>10827854
Okay, I see there's no use in discussing this topic with you. Just be happy then about marx supposedy being an oriental author, once he's in the chinese canon like I mentioned in a previous post, and keep trying to donate your authors to another canon instead of improving your own, I suppose.
That all makes sense, isn't it? The western canon isn't european because it has dumas, and the chinese one isn't chinese because they have marx. Those are the wonders of multiculturalism.

>>10827928
>was black
Not French, not European, not western, not a part of the western canon.

End of story.

>>10827930
Where the fuck did I mention Marx? And this isn't about multiculturalism. Dumas was French. He's Western lit. You think that just because he was mixed that makes him an African-American or something. Take your Murifag views and shove them up your ass.

>>10827417
Multiculturalism exists in the Western canon. It's just European Multiculturalism that excludes non-Westerners.

@10827966
>dumas an african "american"
Lmaoooo, I'm done with this thread

>>10827966
>Dumas was French
Are you dense or just trying to make yourself look stupid? Blacks aren't from France. They aren't French.

>>10827972
To Murifags, every person of black descent is an African-American kek

>>10827971
>Multiculturalism exists in the Western canon.
This is only a very recent phenomenon, and something that has been done maliciously, and largely by jews, who are themselves not a part of the west, which is why they are attempting to pervert western traditions. It is not the new standard, it is a modern aberration that what's need to and will be fixed as whites retake control over our societies.

>>10827996
*that needs to

>>10827976
This guy's not from Africa. He's from France. He was literally born and bred in France. Spoke French, wrote in French. He had no cultural connection to Africa. Culture isn't your blood ffs.

>He's not Western lit because he wasn't fully Caucasiaaan

Do you consider him part of African literature? top kek Murifags...

>>10826308
>Why don't people want to include non-western works in the western canon

Gee, OP, I dunno.

>>10828005
That's not how it works. French people aren't black, and blacks aren't French. You are making an absurd argument and need to stop.

>>10828034
He was a mixed French man. Period. Nationality-wise he was French. Nothing you can do about it.

Of course, many non-whites (especially Jews) have made important contributions to Western culture. But the West and it’s literary canon are still primarily defined by the white race.

>>10828005
Liberal democracy was a mistake

>>10828134
Jews are white you nitwit

>>10828146
Even Ashkenazi Jews are genetically more similar to Palestinian Arabs than to any European ethnic group.

>>10826318
In all honesty, the only authors I have for that reason are James Baldwin and Audre Lorde, and that's more because I think they're celebrated for anticipating contemporary intersectional progressivism rather than any specific push for diversity.

>>10828134
Jews are terrible writers and have only subverted to our literary traditions. Their contributions have been almost entirely negative.

>>10828146
Jews are levantine semites, they are most definitely not white.

>>10828178
Harold Bloom is racially Middle Eastern, but he has done more to preserve Western literary canon than you or any other white /pol/tard.

>>10828108
The French are a Germanic people from a very specific place. "French" is not an abstract idea that can be applied to blacks. Your argument is retarded.

>>10828193
No, he's a jewish fraud.

>>10828207
French is a race?

>>10828224
Can you read?

>>10828207
It's also a nationality now. And Dumas is French.

>>10827782
What your saying is that if a problem starts, just accept the consequences and don't complain or try to fight them, no? The good ol' "if you cut yourself, let the blood pour out so you can take responsibility for your wrong, rather than avert the natural consequence and bandage it and deal with what cut you in the first place, because its all your fault and how dare you impose yourself and your interests on the world around you"?

>>10826308
Who would you include and why?

>>10828285
The French aren't black; Dumas was black; therefore Dumas was not French.

>>10828415
>Dumas was black
Dumas was three quarters French, though. His father was half black half French, and his mother was fully French.

>>10828459
A glass of water is a glass of water. Dropping a little gasoline in that glass of water changes it from a glass of water to a glass of water with gasoline in it.

>>10826518
>I
>I
>I
>I
>I

>>10826721
4chan was like this from the start. Begone, subversive colonizer.

>>10827332
>jewish problem
You mean the subhuman problem.

>>10827812

I would agree with you if it were true that the Canon held a strictly European perspective in expression but I just don't think that's true. Whitman's style I believe was actually one of the hallmark foundations of American culture. Dickinson is distinct from many European poets as well. To deny that the non-European authors writing in the Western tradition were not shaping a culture of their own, albeit with European influence, is ridiculous.For example,the poetry of the Harlem Renaissance was influenced by both American and European poets, however they had a distinct quality that separated them from both traditions however still remaining within the Western (in this case American) tradition and detailing a Western perspective. If you want to have a European canon that's fine. But if that's the case then only include European authors in it. You can't extend the definition of "Western tradition" to another culture but exclude people that have been writing within that culture for centuries just because of their race. Black people have been writing in the American tradition since the 18th century, whites started in the 17th.

>>10826551
Bloom was a die-hard democrat in the classroom until it started effecting him

>>10828338
Judging by all the nazi comments: Dumas.

>>10826510
Nabokov shat all over them lol

>>10826510
>Let's just kick out white male authors like Shakespeare and replace them with authors like Rupi Kaur

Nobody is saying this, don't overreact kek

>>10828139
Meaning what?

>>10826322
nigger

>>10826308
>using "whiteness" unironically
and
>I think it's a silly idea and limits your perspective on the world. What do you think?
I think this is a weak example of bait thread. 3/10. What the hey, I'll bite. non-European authors don't fit in the canon because they are usually not engaging with it as a conversation except when they are reacting to it as victims: muh colonialism, muh yams, muh rage. Witness your criticism starting off with identity politics based off the most superficial human quality there is.

Die in a fire.

>>10828751
All the replies I've got for the posts I made were basically
>yeah, the european literary tradition initiated with the europeans (??), but look here, we've got these 4 great non european authors that in the last few centuries had written these great books in a european language while they were living among europeans in western countries, so we should put all of them and many others also in the canon and ignore the whole point of the canon being meant to be a particular expression of a di4stinxt people who had thousands of years of their own literary tradition
"Western" isn't a buzzword for people to call anything that happened in the geographical location of what is currently called "the west" as things that are essentially western, western has a meaning, it means the history of the european peoples regardless of where they lived geographically, it isn't the history of a piece of land and anyone who hapoened to live there (because if that were the case then native american oral traditions would be part of the western canon, which are not, even though they always lived in what is considered to be "the geographical west" now), it is a history of a people, whether they are tolkien living in south africa or churchill writting his annotations in central america on the cuban war of independence.
The same thing happens with the diasporas of non westerners in the west, they have their own history and canon, they living in the west is irrelevant to that, but you insistently seem like sensitive people who want to prove something by wanting to call something that isn't western something western, while totally ignoring that you aren't deprived of your own canon once you do have one, you have your own tradition and could be working in it instead of doing this ridiculous thing.
>hurr durrr what you're saying is that because the western canon is european then all great non european writers are useless
No, they just are not part of the western canon because of that. A people having its own history and its own literary tradition is a reality whether you call it racism or not.

>>10826308
take some black prose and put it next to one of the authors of the canon who isn’t a woman or a YA author like Orwell or Dickens. Let’s see what happens

>>10829000
>black prose

Goddammit, /lit/.

>>10828974

I think you're ignoring my point. I said that the writers of each individual culture that held a "European" perspective were also partaking in the creation of American culture. The perspective was not strictly European. Dickinson and Whitman didn't grow up in Europe. They were around other Americans that were influenced by Europeans. You keep missing the point that black people in America have just a 100 year difference of partaking in the Western tradition than white Americans. Yes their ancestry is European but they were raised in a culture that held an identity distinct from the that of any other European one. There are authors in the canon who wrote hundreds of years apart from one another. European culture for Dante isn't exactly what you'd call American culture is it? Yet both are included in the canon despite their differing degrees and forms of European influence/perspective. Why shouldn't you include someone because they have a single century less of European influence than every other author? You keep arguing this as if people are desperate to join your private club when they actually have no right and should just make their own. But the reality is that you're contradicting the contents of the canon itself if you're going to imply that the perspectives in it are purely European and nothing distinct from it. Fitzgerald was literally writing in the same time that the Harlem Renaissance was going on and he's apart of the canon but there are no black authors. Are you gonna tell me that Fitzgerald's take on his culture is somehow more European than a black American's despite them having the same influences and being raised in two different places within a shared overlying culture? Stop pretending that America doesn't have it's own cultural identity.

>>10829105
Where do you think white Americans came from? The soil?

>>10829105
Man, you just said that a people having their own history is like having a private club. When was the last time you said that about the japanese? That's hypocrisy. All that mental gymnastics you're doing is an offense to your own canon, which all the posters making these arguments didn't even mention apart from the authors you supposedly want to see in the western canon.
Stop claiming america as a non european society just because it has a "distinct culture". Italians and germans also have different cultures, but both are ethnic european nations and therefore are part of the canon. The ancestors of the ethnic european american authors that are in the canon lived in europe before taking that tradition to america. The canon is the continuation of a particular people and their history, not the continuation of other people and other canons.
A hundred years or a thousand years of non westerner authors writing books and claiming to be westerners is irrelevant to the 3 thousand years the western canon has been western. The canon isn't a universal festival for all peoples to join. Every people has its own, because every people has its own history. That is why there are many canons

>>10829119

Their ancestry is European but what does that matter? Are you implying that it's a pure European blood right to be in the Western tradition? You think everyone in the canon is a pure blooded European? Kafka was a Jew, his ancestry is semitic, he's in the canon

>>10829193

No one is saying there shouldn't be a Black Western Canon. I'm not even saying not to have a White Western canon. But when you have a Western canon that is clearly composed of different peoples effected by European influence I don't see any reason to exclude one single group because of their race. If a black person in America is being influenced just as much by Europe as a white person I don't understand why they wouldn't both be in the canon. Yes the influence manifests itself into separate things. Black America and White America are certainly different. But they are both too distinct takes on European culture that are both different from the cultures of their ancestry. Yes Italians and Germans have distinct cultures with European inlfunece. Yes White America is a distinct culture with European influence. But is Black America not also a distinct culture with European influences? Blacks writing during the Harlem Renaissance certainly have more European influence than African in them. Why do you think so many of them wrote in the style that they did?

>>10829193

The ironic thing is that there are posters in this thread who literally claimed jazz and blues as belonging to Europeans because it was Europeans that gave blacks the tools to create their music. Now all of a sudden I'm being told that when blacks create art within a European medium it has nothing to do with Europeans. An even greater irony is that Europeans claim that their influence civilized Africans during colonialist times. It's funny how Europeans have taken so much credit for the way their influence has effected blacks yet when black people want to be apart of the Western tradition all of a sudden we have drastically less European influence than everyone else and shouldn't be apart of it.

>>10829219
You seem like an intelligent person and a well educated poster, I don't want you to claim racism out of what the western canon is and I see that you understand this when I make similar analogies with the chinese and the japanese canons. The thing is that all the societies of the world were independent from each other since the dawn of times. They don't share the same exact history, the same historical events, the same religion, the same wars, the same ethnicities, or the same literary tradition.
All peoples had a different history.
In terms of historical though, it makes no sense for you to claim that a different people is suddenly part of another distinct people, because that is what sound like to most readers when we talk about messing with the canons, once the canons aren't just a bunch of books, they are also a chronological account on the development of ethnicities, cultures and civilizations.
The western nations are distinct among themselves, but they are all western. The asian nations as well, but they're all asian. Same with sub saharan africa etc.
I don't get why this is such a big deal for you guys, though. The western canon isn't the continuation of the sub saharan literary traditions, and vice versa. Those are different things. What is the point of calling the two canons by the same name once the content is going to be different because of the same historical perspectives that make them unique and different from each other? It would only be a nominal statement, just like caling the democratic republic of korea a democratic state, once in practice we all know that's a dictatorship.

>>10829257
Interesting points, but I didn't claim any of those things you think are unreasonable.
My point is that all peoples are original, and that their canons are based also on their particular history, not only on their condition of being writers.

dude wtf just make your canon if you don't like it.

>>10829257
Actually, it was be claiming it and only to ruste jimmies. You have fallen for an obvious shitpost, senpai.

>>10829343

I think your argument is perfectly fair. But the way I see it, if there are people in the canon like Kafka,Agustine of Hippo, and Camus, people whose ancestry certainly includes African peoples and Semitic, then it is obvious that the tradition is not limited to people who have exclusively European ancestry. Your argument would be completely valid if it were consistent with the contents of the canon but my point is that it isn't. I completely agree that it is carrying a European tradition, however, the European perspective is clearly not limited to people who have strictly European ancestry. It is extended to anyone who was raised in a European culture. My point is that the black Americans of the Harlem Renaissance very likely have a good about of European blood due to race mixing and were very much raised in an extension of European culture. Early Harlem Renaissance poetry is very much in the style of poets like Blake and Wordsworth. What I'm arguing is that these people, just like Kafka and Camus, do not have purely European blood, but were raised in a European culture and this allows them what we may call a "Western perspective". It's not an African perspective because they are apart of a diaspora and perserved none of their tradition. Unlike the Jews, who may have been writing in another country, but may have still be writing with a Jewish perspective due to the fact that they were aware of their history and culture. Blacks in America knew little to nothing of their ancestry. The majority of what they knew was their lives in America, under European influence, speaking a European language. If you read slave narratives like Equiano's you see that it is written very much in traditional romantic language. I appreciate a good discussion and a good argument, I always do, thank you for it. But the way I see it, if we have some people in the canon who don't have pure blood European ancestry, then we can't argue that it is exclusively a continuation of everyone in it's European heritage. It is more like a continuation of different European cultures. White American culture is a product of European influence but Black American culture is just as much. If you want to argue that their African heritage is what separates them from the White Americans I call bs because Agustine and Camus had African heritage too. Yeah, not sub-saharan but the point is that they were not pure blooded Europeans so it's not fair to say that the canon is just a continuation of an exclusive European history.

>>10830594

Lol alright man. There's a lot of people on this site saying ridiculous shit. Sorry, I didn't know you were just pretending to be retarded.

>>10831061

Mind you, I'm not trying to say that there shouldn't also be a Black American literature canon. And once again, I don't think my argument is necessarily a trump to yours, I think they're both fair. I just think that it's a funny situation. Africans are notoriously unwelcoming to Black Americans because we've been so "tainted" by Western influence. We are distinct from every other black person because of our Western influence. I think it's funny how it's more difficult for us to connect with our African roots because we get called "Yankee". Everyone else sees us as Americans. Western peoples, who more or less don't really have anywhere to go and feel comfortable. It's just funny how everyone seems to acknowledge that Black Americans are very Western culturally but are somehow not apart of the Western tradition. But this is an age old confliction that black and white Americans have had actually. Hughes wrote about White America refusing to claim him as his son despite how much of their blood was in him and how much of their culture. Funny how Kafka, the Jew, gets to be apart of the "Western tradition" because he grew up in Europe despite having semitic ancestry. But Hughes must belong to a separate canon despite being influenced by European writers, living in a European culture, and speaking a European language. You see what I'm getting at? I think it's fair to not see it my way and still choose to not extend it but I think the extension is consistent with the contents of the canon otherwise.

>YOUR "WESTERN CANON" SHOULD HAVE LOTS OF NON-WESTERN MATERIAL!!!! JUST LIKE YOUR COUNTRIES!!!
>Why?
>WOW ARE YOU RACIST?! I MEAN SERIOUSLY?? UHH I CAN"T EVEN....

>>10831061
What I get from the idea of your post is still what I wrote about in a previous post, the argument that "if there are a few non european authors in the canon, it stops being european or exclusively european, and for the european canon to be european there should be non exceptions whatsoever" for some reason. It's unreasonable, because that is just a small detail, that isn't the rule. The canon isn't the KKK, you're right, there are indeed non european authors, but they aren't the whole point of the canon. The foundations of the canon weren't made around non european authors. That's exactly the reason why they are just a few authors, and why there aren't many others, and what you're proposing by saying that because they exist then this argument could be used as a doorway for the inclusion of several other non european authors is something that would completely change the sense of identity and the sense of historical perspective of the canon.
You see, this isn't about racism, because the historical importance of the canons are also related to the chronological account on the history of the peoples that had paved the way for the ideas and events that made the canon possible. The canon isn't a story of the single individual that wrote a book, it is also a history of the people that produced that individual who wrote the book.
You mentioned the jewish authors, it's true that some of their books are part of the western canon, but the jews also have their own canon and own sense of belonging when it comes to their authors, you mentioned kafka, this is so important to them that actually the original files of his writings are currently at a library in israel
>https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/01/rare-kafka-manuscripts-israels-national-library-court-rules
There will always be a few authors that were supposed to be in different canon on all canons, but once they have payed a role in a chapter of the history of a different people, they get mentioned in a canon that isn't supposed to be their own (I mentioned marx being in the chinese canon, because after the chinese revolution marx became a reference for the chinese communist school of thought, that also happened in the west, many saints in the western canon that weren't of full european origin are present in the canon because the reforms that happened in the catholic church in the past based their arguments on the writings of those saints, and then they became important, once the church was an important part of life of the people living in the west).
I don't think that in the jewish canon, which contains many diaspora authors from many nationalities and languages, but is composed mostly by people of jewish descent (that is why the canon is jewish), they would call freud an austrian author, kafka a czech author, or einstein a german author. They're all jewish. They being born/had written their works abroad is irrelevant, even if the west claims a few jewish works as I mention before.
1/2

>>10831061
So if we start putting non european authors en masse on the western canon, using the argument that they should be there because in the past there were a few, then we will create a new canon based on a universal perspective. It would cause confusion for people wanting to read the canon searching to understand the ethnic european perspective of things, once they would inevitably be reading as much non european perspectives as the european ones they are searching for. You see, I'm not making a case for this sort of canon not to exist, I think this should exist if that's what people want, but there's no need to fundamentally change the western canon for it to happen, that could perfectly be done by a different name, there's no need to do that with the western canon in order to this to exist.
As I already said, I see that you're a reasonable person, and I do not want to convince you to agree with my arguments, what I'm trying to elaborate in my posts is the central point of the argument around the thread, why there are an overhelmingly majority european authors in the western canon, and why it isn't ideal for it to chang that just because the canon does have many other authors from other ethnicities as well, as all the other canons.
We can agree on disagreeing, because both our arguments are strong, but I still think that it isn't ideal for all great works written by authors of sub saharan origins would be listed in the western canon, it seems that is time for your own canon to finally claim your own identity, and start developing a better sense of comunity among your authors. That would be original and worth reading like all canons.
2/2

Western means colonized by Europeans so that’s why the canon should be multicultural. It happens that a lot of authors in this canon share ethnicall (whiteness) racial identity.

>>10826505
>This is why Trump won.
That's not why, Trump won because Hillary decided the polls meant she didn't have to campaign. His success against the Republicans was mostly just identifying with his childishness and the publicity from the left.

>>10826308
I've always understood the canon to represent the answer to the question of which books you would rescue from a fire first, generalized to the whole of humanity. Which books, in other words, represent the very highest achievements of human thought?

When I was a student this anti-straight-white-male ressentiment shit was just brewing and 'is the canon too white?' was an open question for discussion introduced by our teachers (Is the canon too white?) whereas it seems to have moved into the realm of being beyond question now. But my objection at the time was that this seemed beside the point. Like, Ethiopians make the best long distance runners, but if we insist on putting Caucasians on the podium for the sake of diversity, well then it's no longer the Olympics, it's just a sponsored fun run.

>>10832544
why would you bump this garbage thread?

>>10832544
Likewise if we insist on diversity inclusions, then we're no longer really having a discussion about cultural significance or influence - we're just jerking it over how unprejudiced and open minded we are.

The upshot of these types of discussion is that my American lit class got three weeks of lectures and seminars on Melville, which wasn't a lot, really, and we had two weeks on Gertrude Stein, an indisputably minor figure who no doubt made the cut because there simply had to be #women covered on the course. Time could have much better spent on the real important figures in what was supposed to be an overview of Am-lit: in this sense, it's literally a zero sum game and I think resenting losing out is perfectly justified.

>>10832562
Honestly, I'm interested in reading others' responses although I'm sure a lot is going to be /pol/ garbage

>>10826721
you type like a girl and your shit's all effeminate

>>10832891
Ummm, try again, sweetie. :)

>>10832562
>>10832658
>>10832671

I think the two main arguments for and against diversity in the canon can be summed up here:

>>10829343
>>10831061
>>10831096
>>10831365
>>10831381

Honestly, cutting out all the pol shit, these two sides basically articulate anything you'd argue about either.

>>10826308
No thanks I'll just reread the Iliad

>>10826601
>This is already the best board on 4chan and its value would skyrocket if something like that were implemented.
wew

>>10826361
It's not more difficult than this.

>>10832544
>I've always understood the canon to represent the answer to the question of which books you would rescue from a fire first, generalized to the whole of humanity. Which books, in other words, represent the very highest achievements of human thought?
I understand where that idea comes from, but that's not what the western canon is about. The western canon is a regional canon, like all others. It started like that, and it is like that until today, that's why people complain about it being majority european. It wasn't even the first literary tradition to exist like a lot of people tend to think, actually it is one of the newest ones from the old world, the peoples from the east had older writting traditions.
But it is true that thinking the western canon as a universal canon is a misconception taken as a primary argument by many people, and that is some sort of "falsely intuitive misconception" because it describes the western canon as a universal canon made by all peoples of the world, what isn't true, otherwise the western canon wouldn't even be called like that since the beginning of times.
The western authors from the european literary traditions having had the ideas and had written the works that had had the most visible and important impact in world history isn't a reason for it to become the literary tradition of all peoples. It is still a local canon, related to a local people, from a local history, and a local tradition.
For some reason in the european tradition there was going on a very creative thing among writers, a lot of people had shared many ideas and had written great books. That is true.
But "the greatest books" and "the western canon" aren't exactly the same thing if we take into account all the great books ever written. It isn't honest to include the greatest works of the chinese tradition in the western canon because of that, like it isn't honest to replace the greatest books of all canons with the western ones just because they are important to contemporary societies.

>this garbage thread is still alive

>>10828846

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/01/08/university-students-demand-philosophers-including-plato-kant/amp/

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/12/14/students-penn-remove-portrait-shakespeare

I dislike the exaltation of ignoble and indignant niggers

>>10833796
They're not saying replace them with Kaur, but they do want them replaced with Lorde, Baldwin, and anyone else that could be used as a proto-intesectional feminist.

>>10826601
yes and no, yes because quality would slightly increase, no because lack of political diversity creates reddit

>>10826865
average american be like

>>10827114
https://ourworldindata.org/public-spending
https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-spending.htm
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.CON.GOVT.ZS

>>10826928
>The left has nobody but themselves to blame for the fact that people in the year 2018 are less willing to accept non-whites than a hundred years back

You guys are truly out of touch if you imagine this is true.

>All of Europe is the same culture and ethnicity, 2000 years ago and now—all the same.