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/lit/ - Literature


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10800760 No.10800760 [Reply] [Original]

>Name: Severian
>Sword Name: Terminus Est
>Profession: Member of The Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence, commonly known as The Torturers

What the fuck is this. Does /lit/ just pretend it's amazing because Sam Hyde said he liked it?
>so many layers, so much hidden meaning!
It's a fantasy novel for young adults. I've just finished Claw and although the setup of the first novel was decent, 80-90% of what I've read so far is complete trash of little substance. Wolfe is unjustified in the gravity with which he writes and comes off as pretentious. I can see a teen falling for the false profundity but for me it became obvious and uncomfortably cringey.

>> No.10800791

>>10800760
I have no idea who Sam Hyde is. /lit/ has loved/hated this series for the last 8-10 years.

>It's a fantasy novel for young adults.
Oh look, a couple of labels thrown together to make you feel bad. Also,
>cryptic plot filled with puzzles
>guy literally fucks his grandma and rapes some other chick
>young adult
Right.
>Wolfe is unjustified in the gravity with which he writes and comes off as pretentious.
So, an unfounded opinion with the same merit as "I didn't like it" but phrased more eloquently. Cool.
>the false profundity
Look, another one.

>> No.10801059

>>10800760
>Sam Hyde said he liked it
Source?

>> No.10801079

>>10800791
this post is a self-own

>> No.10801100

>>10801079
>>10801079
XD NIGGA SELF OWNED LAMAO

>> No.10801106

>>10800760
>YA
There is not a young adult protag as far as I am aware and the narrative is far too complex for most YA readers so no.

>> No.10801108

>>10801100
you keep doing it
>>10801106
the book is for teenagers you fucking retard

>> No.10801114

>>10800760
He probably started out writing it with a boyish mind, a fun edgy fantasy adventure, but as he wrote—life experience seeped in, the edge becoming a slope, blood and gore becoming grim.
Like the french Revolution, fun killing all these dehumanized titles, until the killing never ends and the titles become the shivering kicking and screaming of human fear.

>> No.10801128

>>10801108
ayy im not him

>> No.10801134

>>10801128
kys

>> No.10801167

>>10801079
Listen. I'm only describing your criticism.

So you didn't like the books. You thought they were immature. That's fine. I'm not going to try to change your mind. However, if you can't understand why unfounded assertions such as
>complete trash of little substance
>unjustified in the gravity
>comes off as pretentious
>false profundity
have no merit, your post is just vapid pretentious shit. You put forth no rational arguments, not even examples ffs, to sustain your opinions.

>>10801108
You can't even justify this dumb statement you keep repeating over and over.

>> No.10801930
File: 133 KB, 600x600, 1488889152993.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10801930

>>10800760
Cry more. It's a good, comfy book.

>> No.10801996

>>10800760
>Sam Hyde

I fucking hate the new 4chan

>> No.10802066

>>10801079
>>10801100
more liek self-pwn...

>> No.10802079

>>10801059
Fallout 4 stream with Charls Carroll, Chuck said his greatest inspiration was Mishima's Patriotism

>> No.10802327

>>10801059
there is a Hyde wars ep where he flashes it around and says reed dis

>> No.10803126
File: 87 KB, 487x640, imllwdbf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10803126

>>10800791
>rape
>not an edgy young adult cliche
Yeah, Game of Thrones is for intellectual powerhouses.
>an unfounded opinion with the same merit as "I didn't like it" but phrased more eloquently
I explained why I didn't like it. I don't need to refer to specific plot details because the plot doesn't mean shit if it's written poorly. Not that the entirety of Claw even had a fucking plot, it was pointless bullshit that led to nowhere and then suddenly in the last chapter something mildly interesting happens.
>>10801167
Your opinions on literary criticism are so fucking retarded. Everything I can possibly write is just an opinion. If I listed something specific and said "this is why it's bad" it would be retarded, reading plot details of a book doesn't tell you shit about how good it is. If this story was written by a good writer my opinion would be entirely different, and my only explanations for why would be "I like these [lists off] aspects of his writing", "the narrative knew its place and was tonally appropriate during difference sequences", "the writer kept me interested in the slow parts of the story and I wasn't lost as to why nothing was going on". None of those things can be said about Gene Wolfe, and I appropriately listed off the obverse of each of the above in OP. I'm sorry if the word "profound" is too pretentious a word to use when I'm using it to refer to Wolfe's pretentious writing style.

But yeah, it's just an opinion, not some imaginary objective literary criticism like "DUDE he was fucking his grandma WHAT A MIND FUCK", "so many layers I'm so fucking smart did you read my timeline for the series?". Truly you must be a philosopher to understand "Claw of the Conciliator" kek

>>10801167
>>10801106
The story follows Severian aging. He starts out at the beginning of adolescence (just under YA age range) and for the last 450 pages I've read he's probably not much older than 18. Probably 16-21. He probably doesn't age past 21 before the epilogue of the fourth book. The protagonist is in the perfect age range of a YA novel, and any follow-up where we see an older Severian doesn't change that the bulk of the story is written about a young adult, targeted at young adults.

I don't even see how the protagonist's age is even relevant. Game of Thrones is clearly aimed at readers aged 15 to early twenties and a lot of the protags aren't young adults.
>>10801996
If you look up Book of the New Sun discussion online a lot of it directs right back to the MDE subreddit, and I guarantee a lot of the people you talk about these books with on 4chan were recommended it by Sam.
Cam McLeod is probably the faggot defending the book so hard in this thread.

>> No.10803133

>>10801106
> the narrative is far too complex for most YA readers
kek

>> No.10803314

BUMP

>> No.10803628

bump

>> No.10803892

>>10803126
Not him, but I don't think you know what YA means...

>> No.10804130

Bump
>>10803892
Books aimed at young men aged 15-21, possibly 15 to early twenties. I don't think you know what YA means.

>> No.10804144

>>10800760
>Terminus Est
Esto es el fin!

>> No.10804258

bump

>> No.10804489

>>10804144
You retard

>> No.10804885

>>10800760
You're probably a fedora tipping atheist and couldn't appreciate the Christian allegory, and the circular nature of history embedded in the novels.

>> No.10805217

>>10801059
HydeWars Ep.3 Chine A.I.

>> No.10805612

>>10804885
You realize being a Christian is the new edgy thing, right? Just look at 4chan. Atheist when that was edgy, now they LARP as Christians while their family isn't even religious.

>> No.10805702

>>10801079
you have to be 18...

>> No.10805975

>>10800791
>guy literally fucks his grandma and rapes some other chick
exactly, young adult

>> No.10806143

>>10800760
desu I love the depth of the characters and the world, it seemed so alive to me. Dune feels like lifeless trash by comparison but God Emperor feels a bit better so far. Maybe Children of Dune just sucks the most

>> No.10806370

who cares

>> No.10806390

just look at that picture he so cool ( * w *)

>> No.10806474
File: 37 KB, 586x578, 1517894282964.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10806474

>>10803126
This is retarded. BOTNS follows none of the tropes or patterns of YA. YA main characters are mean to be relatable to teenagers. They're usually misunderstood, average, good people who are frustrated by their superiors. Severian is none of those things. He is independent and entirely in control of his situation. He is not a good person, he's a self-centered rapist and rarely shows feelings of remorse, guilt or compassion. He's not average. he's a highly skilled and trained torturer and executioner (and this it through hard work, not a magic power or some shit like in YA). And if you think the writing is YA then you're an actual retard. It's very poetic and dense, with a wide vocabulary, almost never relies on "action", and has three different stories being told at the same time. Christ, have you ever read a YA book? I think it's pretty obvious that you're just a brainlet who's frustrated at not understanding something.
>uninterested in slow parts
>nothing going on
>pretentious writing style
These are criticisms that I consistently hear from brainlets and redditors about classics they don't understand. I'm sorry there weren't enough le battles to keep you interested and not confused.

>Sam Hyde
This is the stupidest thing yet. I've never seen Sam Hyde mentioned once in a discussion of this book. Are you even trying?

>> No.10806530

>>10806474
everyone else backed off when they realized that the guy was legitimately retarded but you just keep piling in on him

>> No.10806536

>>10803126
>If I listed something specific and said "this is why it's bad" it would be retarded
Why would you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously when all you've pointed out and explained so far are target demographics?
You could've provided at least examples.

>I guarantee a lot of the people you talk about these books with on 4chan were recommended it by Sam.
You are either a tourist or a disgusting newfag. I first read this book in 2011 based on seeing a mention of it on /lit/. I remember it discussed a lot earlier. Dating as far as 2013 in the archives:
>>>/lit/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=tbotns&search_subject=&search_username=&search_tripcode=&search_email=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=old&search_capcode=all&search_res=post

>b-but it's bad and you should feel silly because [some literal who on YouTube who influences the edgy autistic teenagers of this Mongolian weaving board] says it's a good book
You come off as a contrarian teenager yourself.

>>10806474
>He is independent and entirely in control of his situation.
This is hardly true, but your other points stand.

Other things I'd like to add.
The prose can be pretty dry, sometimes bordering on purple, which is highly irregular for YA novels.
There is very little exposition when it comes to plot developments. Much less in regards of describing the technology Severian and others operate. And overall, many things are very anticlimactic.

It's a coming of age story. Of course it resounds with young audiences. Siddhartha or Demian are both coming of age books. Nobody in their right minds would compare then to modern YA novels.

>> No.10806702
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10806702

>>10800760
Oh my god finally someone who agrees with me and I happened to find a BoTNS thread exactly after coming back to this board after a long while. I wasted my time reading the whole series only to be rewarded by a fucking mess and huge plot holes all over the places. I appreciated the worldbuilding and some characters but frankly I don't give a fuck about symbolism. I'd rather have a character driven story. I find this series extremely overrated.

>> No.10806716

>>10806702
You literally didn't get the plot lmao

>> No.10806767
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10806767

>>10806716
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand The Book of The New Sun. The symbolism is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of The old and new testament most of the symbols will go over a typical reader’s head. There’s also Severian's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from (insert literary movement name) literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these lines, to realise that they’re not just describing- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike BoTNS truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the depth in Severian existential line “Men are said to desire women,” which itself is a cryptic reference to something extremely obvious. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Gene Wolfe’s genius wit unfolds itself on paper. What fools.. how I pity them.

>> No.10806779
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10806779

>>10800760

>> No.10806967
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10806967

>>10806702
>I don't give a fuck about symbolism
NOMINALISTS GET OUT

>> No.10806996

>>10806967
You see why I refuse to click on this board.

>> No.10807257

>>10800791
Spoiler tag you fucking retard, kill yourself

>> No.10807575
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10807575

>>10806143
>I love the depth of the characters and the world
That's fine. Even 15 years later I still have a massive respect for Naruto for its world building. It's very possible for something to be a great achievement in creativity and still be awful as a work of art. Just don't claim it's some masterpiece and waste my time reading it.
>>10806474
At least you're not claiming a YA novel has to focus on a young teenager, which everyone else seems to think. The only point is that mostly YA novels don't have morally ambiguous protags. That's true but most novels in general also don't. There might be a lower percentage in the YA but it's definitely there. I can list off examples from my childhood. Artemis Fowl is even below the YA range and it's about a psychopath criminal with relationship issues. It's not in the form of rape or being a literal torturer but I guess kids under the age of 12 don't reach that level of edge yet. CHERUB had a lot of moral ambiguity, with psychopaths. The main character wasn't evil but him cheating on his girlfriend and generally being a dick as well as the drug use was enough to get the majority of our school year to read it. We were 11, 12, 13 and most of my class was talking about it.
And again, ASOIaF appeals largely to late teens early twenties people with the same edgy attitude, just evolved into more "mature" topics like rape and torture.
>I've never seen Sam Hyde mentioned
The entire joke of this board is that everyone's trying to one-up each other on how smart they are. They're not going to admit that they only read their favorite fantasy novel because some idol who they're desperately trying to imitate recommended it. It makes them look retarded.
I only knew of Sam recommending it once on facebook years ago, which is where I got the pic, but you can see from 3 or 4 other people on this thread he's actually recommended it more than once, and they are in fact aware of it. Even if you didn't find it through Sam I guarantee a lot of the people you've talked about the books with did.
>>10806536
I've already listed off the elements of his writing I didn't like, that's all I can do.
>>10806702
>animeposter
>"I'd rather have a character driven story"
Don't ever post in my thread again please
>>10807257
The incest was hinted at even in Claw. There's also brother-sister incest in the first book. I can see why edgelords had to find something to rave about when Game of Thrones became too popular for them. If we were posting 20 years ago people would be talking about what a masterpiece those books are because of GRRM's hidden subplot that only people of high intellect can appreciate.

>> No.10807583

>>10806536
also show me that it was on /lit/'s top 100 list before Sam mentioned it. I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying I suspect it's the real explanation for why I keep seeing it get brought up here.

>> No.10807587

>>10807575
Forgot pic - it's another YA series I read. I think he was in late twenties mid-series.

>> No.10808833

>>10807575
>Artemis Fowl is even below the YA range and it's about a psychopath criminal with relationship issues.
Artemis Fowl is only marginally ambiguous in the first book, and even then it's still in a romantic way (like bank robbers or gangsters). The rest of the series he's a straight up hero.
>The main character wasn't evil but him cheating on his girlfriend and generally being a dick as well as the drug use was enough to get the majority of our school year to read it.
I haven't read this but the point here isn't Severian's actions, it's the way he describes and processes them. Cheating on your girlfriend can be justified in the circumstances. With Severian it's more that he consistently shows very little empathy for other people, even if he's not doing something wrong himself.
>The only point is that mostly YA novels don't have morally ambiguous protags. That's true but most novels in general also don't.
True moral ambiguity (not omg this guy does drugs) is far more present in adult books vs YA, come on.
>And again, ASOIaF appeals largely to late teens early twenties people with the same edgy attitude, just evolved into more "mature" topics like rape and torture.
ASOIAF isn't YA, it's just bad genre fiction. No parent would watch Game of Thrones and think it's as appropriate for a child as Harry Potter or the Hunger Games.

>still going on about Sam Hyde
After I finished this book I scoured google for discussions about it, which were rare, and yet I still never once saw Sam Hyde mentioned. This shit is totally retarded and you know it, not to mention completely irrelevant. Who the fuck cares where people heard about it?

>If we were posting 20 years ago people would be talking about what a masterpiece those books are because of GRRM's hidden subplot that only people of high intellect can appreciate.
Game of Thrones is a purely plot based series. There's no experiments with prose, there's no historical or literary illusions, there's no larger themes (except maybe le everyone's evil), there's nothing interesting about the world, it's generic fantasy and it tells us nothing about humanity or our world today. If lit wanted to discuss shit genre fiction like GOT then we'd discuss something like Kingkiller or Stormlight that isn't "too popular" yet.

>>10806536
>He is independent and entirely in control of his situation.
>This is hardly true, but your other points stand.
I mean purely with respect to the other humans he interacts with, not in a larger sense.

>> No.10808857

>>10800760
>REEEEEE I'M GOING TO CRITICIZE A NARRATIVE EVEN THOUGH I'VE ONLY READ HALF OF IT!

The state of /lit/ in 2018. Fuck off faggot. Wolfe is eternally /ourguy/. He transcends the meme trilogy.

>> No.10809088 [DELETED] 
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10809088

>>10807575
You seem to be in denial and it sounds like you're 18yo or maybe on your early 20s, who for lack of experience, can't seem to accept the fact that some Internet things mutate over time.

There's a famous "How to read Wolfe" article by Neil Gaiman dating from 2002. I'd say that insufferable faggot is fairly more prominent in literary discussions than a fucking YouTuber.
Pic related is a chart dating to 2010 or earlier.
I had saved Wolfe memes from 2012 but I can't find them on my HDD. The first top100 was done in 2013 or 2014, (I actually made the chart for 2014) and back then it received 1 vote.

Even if newfags heard about it from this Sam Hyde dude, it's in no way a valid criticism. It's just a childish retort. YOU PROBABLY ONLY LIKE IT BECAUSE YOUR IDOL LIKES IT. That's just retarded and it reeks of projection. These days anon praise the books along the same lines they praised it even before I first read it.

Trust me. Gene Wolfe was a meme in /lit/ far earlier than Sam Hyde even became a thing. It's a book from the 80s ffs. Most of the discussion was done in old mailing lists. There's Ultan.org dating to 2000.

>a 4000 page long book with 600 names is Young Adult
Jesus Christ. Your view on YA is skewed as fuck.

>> No.10809115
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10809115

>>10807575
You seem to be in denial and it sounds like you're 18yo or maybe on your early 20s, who for lack of experience, can't seem to accept the fact that some Internet things mutate over time.

There's a famous "How to read Wolfe" article by Neil Gaiman dating from 2002. I'd say that insufferable faggot is fairly more prominent in literary discussions than a fucking YouTuber.
Pic related is a chart dating to 2010 or earlier.
I had saved Wolfe memes from 2012 but I can't find them on my HDD. The first top100 was done in 2013 or 2014, (I actually made the chart for 2014) and back then it received 1 vote.

Even if newfags heard about it from this Sam Hyde dude, it's in no way a valid criticism. It's just a childish retort. YOU PROBABLY ONLY LIKE IT BECAUSE YOUR IDOL LIKES IT. That's just retarded and it reeks of projection. These days anon praise the books along the same lines they praised it even before I first read it.

Trust me. Gene Wolfe was a meme in /lit/ far earlier than Sam Hyde even became a thing. It's a book from the 80s ffs. Most of the discussion was done in old mailing lists. There's Ultan.org dating to 2000.

>a 4000 page long book with 600 names is Young Adult
Jesus Christ. Your view on YA is skewed as fuck.
You probably even think nobody had read or recommended ASOIAF before the TV series.

>> No.10809235

OP, please kindly explain how this thread from 2014 had almost 200 replies:
>>/lit/thread/S4685906#p4695056

>> No.10809306

Can someone explain the Apu Punchau stuff and what it's all about?
Severian finds himself back in time and upsets the natives who put him in a stone temple where he sees his(?) body the heirodules tell him to keep away from it(?). This temple becomes the future ruin they visit in the 2nd book with the witches(?)

>> No.10809835

>>10809235
Damn what a good thread. How come lit sucks now?

>> No.10809976

>>10809835
Because /leftypol/ and r/fantasy invaded it while most of the good posters grew up and don't post much anymore as their priorities shifted. /lit/ has always been a haven for disenfranchised humanities students, with some overlap of older /lit/izens who genuinely love literature but can't discuss contrarian works with normies in their every day life. The creation of /his/, while logical, also did a lot to kill off quality discussion, as historyfags often have a deep interest in literature and vice-versa. Once they separated the two, it alienated a lot of cross posters whose interests were in both history and literature.

t. oldfag

>> No.10810260

>>10809835
2014/15 isn't oldfag now fuck off

>> No.10810273

>>10810260
I didn’t say it was you tard

>> No.10810286

>>10809976
/leftypol/ was created by users from /lit/ and /pol/ you dumb faggot, the original posters on this board were either apolotival nihilists or leftist armchair philosophers and the remainder were rw intellectuals and ironic catholics. you mean newfag /leftypol/ users and nu-/pol/ has invaded the board along with rebbit and its degenerated the quality of content. the growing up thing is probably a huge component of why most later boards like /lit/ and /pol/ have degenerated since all the oldfags have jobs and families or are dead/on twitter (same thing)

>> No.10810298

>>10807575
What a laughable human being. I can't believe people like you actually exist.

>> No.10810464

>>10810286
>ironic catholics
/lit/ use to have some top-tier serious theology discussion here all the time--to the point where you could find multiple theology threads at a time. /lit/ has always been reactionary, with a small subset of leftists talking about Marx and Derrida every now and then. The early days of /lit/ were essentially a counter-point to r/Atheism and /sci/, who at the time were insufferable faggots. Fedora-posting was popularized here.