/lit/ - Literature

>>10605513
I really want to but I think I'll be bored out of my mind

Oooohh,, I totally would have but:
>i want
>i

>>10605513
Done it like 4 times. Something about this book makes people quit fairly quickly despite how basic it is. Probably it's the fact that this fucking book should be abridged considering how much Marx repeats.

>>10605588
I've finished it once, and I've lead all four groups. People suck :/

>>10605594
>>10605588
wow, I have never read it but heard its quite hard, maybe they give up because they begin to see how they wont be able to live with their shame and pity once they see how damning it is of their world?

>>10605618
Or maybe they already know everything that's written in the book, which makes staying awake the only new struggle that they begin to be aware of

>>10605588
its a draft

They'd read it, but it would mean actually understanding Marx, thus crumbling the very foundations of their alt-right identity, which depends on an imaginary Marxist liberal consumerist corporate media judean conspiracy.

>>10605513
honestly, yes i would be interested. I have always wanted to go though Capital, but get turned off by the length of the text.

registering interest. if the board is going too fast, it might be useful to do each chapter twice over the course of a week, so the group can catch up if they miss the thread.

>>10605513
Davai

>>10605588
>>10605594
>>10605618
>>10605663

The circlest of circle jerks

>>10605513
I'm interested. Volume 1, right?

How to calculate surplus value (it's not profit)?
How calculate use value (it's not exchange value)?
How to predict financial crisis so I can short certain assets and become rich, like many people (none of them Marxists) did back in 2007?

>>10606329
>like many people (none of them Marxists) did back in 2007
yeah, marxists really didn't see it coming, of course you'd know since you personally know every living one

>>10606350
How many of the people who saw the housing bubble and shorted mortgage loans were Marxists?

>>10606359
first we'd have to know how many people actually saw all of that, which means we would have to have snapshots of every single living person's psyche in let's say 2006
does that seem possible to you?

>>10606329
are you pretending like anyone could have known w/out insider information?
are you a literal illiterate when it comes to economics? (how to calculate surplus value¿¿¿)

>>10606384
economics is for losers, I'm just here to own pinkos

>>10606375
Fact of the matter is, if Marxism could accurately predict financial crisis it would be taught on business schools and be strongly encouraged by investment companies.

>>10606384
>(how to calculate surplus value¿¿¿)

tell us.

>>10606415
>tell us.
depends what kinda surplus you mean buddy!

The Gravity's Rainbow reading group already proved that /lit/ can't even finish a book, much less think about one,.

>>10606329
>How to calculate surplus value (it's not profit)?
To put it simply: surplus value is simply the quantity of new value created in production that's in excess of the value required for its own reproduction. The value [not the market price] of any commodity is just the current abstract socially necessary labour time for its reproduction which in theory should tend to decrease over time.
The rate of profit for Marx is s’/(c + v). The s’ numerator denotes the output, the net [’] surplus-value produced -- net of taxes, rents, interest, insurances, losses, and many other expenses -- by means of their productive use of the (c + v) denominator input. (c + v) sums the inputs whose productive uses caused that net output whose successful sale yields the s’. c denotes the cost of the capital invested. v denotes the wages-cost of the labour-power. (c+v) expands at the rate of s' which is broken back into Δc and Δv and feed back into (c+v).
The production of surplus-value is of course dependent on the number of labourers employed and also on how often the variable capital turns over.
Of course this is all problematic because can you quantitatively actually measure any of this? You can take data from national accounts and strip away a lot of unnecessary data and try to transform market prices back into values and chart this but this is all very contentious.

>How calculate use value (it's not exchange value)?
Production is carried on exclusively in search of exchange value. The rate of interest is essiently the market price for the use value of capital FYI

>How to predict financial crisis so I can short certain assets and become rich, like many people (none of them Marxists) did back in 2007?
That's very contentious, some people would tell you s’/(c + v) cannot fully explain development and crisis under fully developed capitalism because it doesn't take into account the role of credit in manipulating the monetary value of goods. You can try reading Paul Mattick's Economic Crisis and Crisis Theory if you want some sort of a idea.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1974/crisis/index.htm

>>10606415
>Fact of the matter is, if Marxism could accurately predict financial crisis it would be taught on business schools and be strongly encouraged by investment companies.
the point of marxism isn't accurate prediction of when the next crisis will be, it's the knowledge that there will be one, and one after that, and one after that, and so on forever, because that's the way capitalism works. and guess who always gets ground down in these crises - the average person.

>>10606504
>Of course this is all problematic because can you quantitatively actually measure any of this?

Yes, that's my point. I was called illiterate for asking such a question. Never seen a Marxist who's able to calculate (or make a good estimate of) the surplus value extracted from capitalists.

>>10606567
*extracted by, sorry

>>10606567
if you see someone kicking a dog do you need to know the exact force of the kicks in Newtons to know it's not right?

>>10606580
Are you implying Das Kapital is a moral treaty about how capitalism is bad and evil? Damn, I thought it was a scientific investigation, my mistake.

next time start the thread with a cover that doesn't have marx's name on it

>>10606588
there isn't really a way to properly quantify the value of someone's work in capitalism other than using market value - which results in CEOs getting golden parachutes and workers getting a kick in the ass

>>10605513
I'm interested in this, but the only Marx I've read is the manifesto and I know nothing about economics.

Should I give this a miss until I know more background?

>>10605533

>>10606654
tell em comrade

I'd be down for a general Marx study group

>>10606452
GR's structure and the type of people it attracts make it literally the worst choice for a reading group possible

>>10607326
I see you baby
shakin dat ass
shakin dat ass

i just started with Marx about a week ago so i'm interested
it's a little intimidating though and i think i've seen some abridged version on leftypol

>>10605513
reading group when/where? discord?

>>10605513
a read an anthology of das kapital, didn't like it.

>>10607857
here https://drive.google.com/file/d/15YIp1XONFkIse3doy28uq6bMjbA8fFXx/view

*blocks your path

>>10608091
>t. I am a millionaire paid more millions by millionaires to say to the middle class and poor this thing that would help the poor and middle class is bad

>>10605513
aw goddammit this shits 1k pages?

>>10608243
alt-right got PWND!

>>10608370

>>10608394
>silly strawmen cartoons
Mises never stood a chance.

>>10608399
silly strawman economist vs silly strawmen cartoons

>>10608411
>silly strawman economist
Mises teachings, and that of his students, still dominate the earth while the corpse of marxism is heaped upon the ashes of history. You also have never even read anything by Mises, let alone his critique of socialism, instead choosing to waste time in echo chambers

Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos. These are the existing socialist states in existence.

>>10608370
>all those soyboys
Wew.

>>10608429
slavery used to dominate the earth
and then it didn't

>>10608429
>Mises
literally who?

>>10608481
>slavery used to dominate the earth
>and then it didn't
woah dude! this is so deep and totally distracts me form the fact that your a dullard with no actual argument because you dont even grasp the concepts being discussed!

>>10608523
lol, "concepts", don't flatter yourself
the only "concept" being discussed is "kek they have money!!!" and it's laughable

>>10608479
Admittedly Matt needs to ditch the beard

>>10605513
I'm up for reading Capital but I refuse to wear pants

>>10608243
Yeah, when the people of Ukraine killed all the productive workers who were keeping food on the table for everyone, they really benefitted while starving to death in the millions.

read this instead, much more stimulating

>>10608370
wtf is chapo trap house

Read Proudhon instead.

>>10608429
>austrian economics
>any more relevant than marxian economics

>>10606504
> surplus value is simply the quantity of new value created in production that's in excess of the value required for its own reproduction.
> Implying you can "quantify value"
> Conflating value with price at two different points in time with three different people
Tell me Marx actually addresses?

>>10608986
>Yeah, when the people of Ukraine killed all the productive workers who were keeping food on the table for everyone, they really benefitted while starving to death in the millions.
Point to me where that is on the list of "The Perfect Absolute Accurate Universally Agreed Doctrine Of Socialism"
inb4 XDDDD #1 famlamo

>>10608996
its a hipster attempt to create a left wing million dollar extreme, but without any humor, insight, or relevance

group where

>>10609083
>start reading what he had to say
>mfw get to his views on...them

>>10609201
they objectively are. marxist economics is kaput

>>10609829
I tried listening to it and it was so boring. Their humor seems to be based entirely on twitter in-jokes and saying things considered naughty by SJWs. They never engage with any serious objections to their ideology, either.

>>10609083
His opinions on machinery also apply more to computers than Marx’s. Therefore he matters more today.

>>10606094
it'll go by quick

>>10606102
we can do that if it works for all of us, since the book is long i would want us to take our time, no rush, allowing others to read something else at the same time.

>>10606295
yeah, pic related can be found in pdf i think.

>>10606452
this will be the first book /lit/ has finished as a group, we're making history here.

>>10606606
ok

>>10606900
ive only read the manifesto and ive read some of the 1st few pages, it gives definitions on what everything is, i mean you could do research but i dont think its too necessary but idk. i think wanting to read this is enough, you can fill in the pieces along the way.

>>10607857
nice, dont be intimidated, it'll pas by quick when you're reading to discuss it after, more motivation. there are videos ill be posting too.

>>10608341
you man enough?

>>10608874
deal
ill reply to this post with the discord

OP Here

I looked at what the other group is doing and decided to make a general with links at the top and the schedule posted like they have, we need to keep the thread alive. I looked at each book (not chapter) and they're all around 100 pages a book so a week should be enough to read it on time or take your time that and to look at other sources to help with discussion, ill also try to post other articles and maybe history to make it a little fun. i'll link the general to this thread as soon as i make the schedule so go there and start, we can do shit like a question of the week and we can start off discussion like that. let me know if you have suggestions for how we should discuss or scheduling.

>>10609846
both are kaput retard. no reputable economist is austrian.

>>10609829
so it's like mde?

>>10608429
>These are the existing socialist states in existence.
>saying that Mises is more relevant than Marx
wow........ so this is the power of American education.............

>>10608370
el monstro americano

>>10605513

Yes I actually want to but I need to do wealth of nations first.

t. actually has capital 1-3 on the shelf + grundrisse and closely re-read a gommunist manifesto with multiple helpful historical excerpts a year-ish ago.

>>10608874

If you can't wear pants, will you or will you not dance-dance in the revolution? Dance with your pants, or dance without pants? Here are comrades (regrettably subsumed into the spectacle) who choose to dance with pants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPiDTfhX86M

>>10609846
moooooron

>>10605513
Yes

This lecture series comes recommended by a lot of people: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0A7FFF28B99C1303

I've tried getting through it myself, but it just gets so hard to take seriously whenever the topic is labor theory of value or surplus value. I really want to get through it though, I guess I'll treat them as what ifs.

OP HERE

>>10610788
>>10610788
>>10610788

>>10610690
used in in new thread. we'll get through the book, it's better reading through dense stuff with others.

>>10609864
>They never engage with any serious objections to their ideology, either
there aren't any

>>10611227

Fuck it. I'm in. Next thread when?