/lit/ - Literature

Social prestige can better be found in other places, like commerce and science

>>10404373
it requires a soul, the world surrendered its collective soul in the early 1900’s for techne. Thank our ancestors for everything you lack today. Enjoy your dating apps and mulatto tv hosts, it was worth it haha

>>10404373
Critical thought and reflection is counter-productive to the modern subjects social life. Art and culture has went from being seen as a liberating and transformative force to being outright threatening

>>10404453
Isn't it only threatening to the powers that be though? Hasn't it always been that way?

What makes you think that? Isn't there more people with Arts BAs than ever?

>this thread

>>10404466
no culture in the 19th and 18th centuries served the elite more than anything. It was 20th century, early 20th century, culture which was dangerous to TPTB. This ended quickly with the boomers, the first maggot men, the first dead eyed fetid walking symbols of death. Your parents killed culture with the televisual revolution. Their consumerism and vapidity, greed and inability to fight for themselves sentences us all to death

>>10404466
There used to be more than one power however. In Shakespeares day people flooded into the globe so they could try understand how to reconcile their Earthly desires with divine providence, how to understand their citizenship under a changing crown and their facing at a new enlightened age. Its much to do why Bloom famously said that Shakespeare invented the human being, in the face of so many pulling priorities and institutions knowing yourself is so tremendously valueble.

Under Globalist Capitalism there is only order and it is to be a placid consumer, the only true prohibition is a nebulous concept of "harrassment" which really boils down to the restriction of ones ability to be a tolerated economic agent. If there's only one clear governing ideology what need is there for art?

>>10404504

Some television is art. The baby boomers did indeed suck but they made plenty of good art.

Have you even been to a large cities' downtown dude there are literally too many artists right now.

>>10404504
That /pol/ poster last night has made me rethink the validity of some opinions here

>>10404515
Which one? Thread?

>>10404512
>Have you even been to a large cities' downtown dude there are literally too many artists right now.

Thats the exact problem we're talking about though, there's plenty of artists exactly BECAUSE there is no audiences for art. When it doesn't matter if no one actually engages with your work to legitimize your title then it becomes simple for any loser to claim to be an artist.

>>10404504
>>10404511
Thank you, captain reddit

Decadence.
Culture and art had died in Rome by the 3rd century.
Wherever highly demanding art is present; prosperity is present. Whenever art has been simplistic and lousy; societal collapse occurs.

>>10404502
>>10404525
>Dude go back to talking about Star Wars and Drumpf trying to understand things is not cool

>>10404515
i was doing shit all late night, what was the thread?

>>10404519
So let's ignore the really good television being produced right now. (If you don't think SOME tv is art i can't help you)

Oh, and there've been plenty of art-house movies recently with America's literally booming indie film indutsry. - Baumbacher, Girwig etc.

OK and let's forget poets and performance artists like Tan Lin (personal favorite, you could try google to find your own) who make a fine living right now and draw huge crowds.

You literally just haven't looked hard enough if you think good art isn't being produced right now, and that it isn't being supported.

What you're all really complaining about is your inability to do art probably because you're internally conflicted about your relationships to women.

>>10404373

I'd imagine crap like SMBC has something to with it.

>>10404608
>So let's ignore the really good television being produced right now.

Like what? Last properly great series was Mad Men and that ended like four years ago.
HBO was the great experiment but its over, a formula is down and its all Netflix pulp from here

>>10404512
>Some television is art
a busted one

>>10404515
t. /pol/ poster

>>10404622
Nathan for You is basically funny performance art.

Transparent was great despite what /pol/ and the /pol/ influenced decided before watching.

Bojack Horseman is great.

The list could be huge this is just what I like offhand.

>>10404639
I liked Transparent (now cancelled by the way) but come on none of that shit approaches art in the way we're talking about it

>>10404453
>has went
fucking americans

>>10404608
>really good television
hahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha

kill yourself

>>10404644
Well now you're just going to hit me with your narrow ass definition of art.

But okay so we're talking about Fine-art? Go back to poets like Christian Bok, Claudia Rankine,Tan Lin, critics like Marjorie Perloff. Fiction writers like Fleur Jaeggy, Teju Cole.

Literally just start looking and not being dismissive just because some new art is not "mah classics."

>>10404608
>>10404639
>>10404691
im gonna go vomit and then eat my breakfast, you sud smash your fingers in a steel door for the next hour

>>10404691
You're missing the point, I'm obviously talking quality not category you fucking brainlet. Every figure you mentioned there is pure garbage

>>10404691
>Go back to poets like Christian Bok, Claudia Rankine,Tan Lin, critics like Marjorie Perloff. Fiction writers like Fleur Jaeggy, Teju Cole.

Holyfuck are these real names? Literature has become such a joke

>>10404691
nah

>>10404726
DUDE
NAMES

>>10404741
Nominative determanism is a real thing. No one called fucking Fleur Jaeggy or Marjorie Perloff are going to have thoughts worth knowing.
Then there's the obvious non-whites which is a whole other story

>>10404745
>nominative determinism is a real thing
A real stupid thing and you are a faggot

>>10404745
>I AM VERY SILLY

>>10404752
>>10404758
Do the math, if a writer sells books under the name 'Fleur Jaeggy' its because every single person that bought the book came across her name on the cover and thought "This is a book for me!"
I'm sure as fuck not reading whatever is recommended by those pseud piss-streaks

>>10404535
what the fuck means that picture???

>>10404752
>>10404758
unwise evaluation, the poster you’re replying to is correct in every sense

>>10404517
>>10404570
>>10404630
>>/lit/thread/S10402371
kek it was a Peterson thread to

>>10404769
nice 'math', I am ever so trolled

>>10404781
Not an argument

>>10404801
>>10404775
>>10404769
>>10404745
not an argument

>>10404769
>>10404741
>>10404732
>>10404726
>>10404705
>>10404716

Oh jeez I just realized it's you guys who aren't interested in culture.


Dismissing writers because they have names you haven't seen before is what a 3rd grader does. Fleur Jaeggy is fucking swiss she has an swiss name jesus christ.

>>10404434
t. sam

>>10404822
I guarantee even in Switzerland its a dumbass name. I wouldn't be dismissing these goobers so superficially if it wasn't superficial standards that led to them being popular to begin with

>>10404726
t. Russel Jimmy

I also get the STRANGE sense ya'll don't read women because they're women, a nigerian like Teju Cole because he's black.

I guess you've been brainwashed enough to think that holding the ideology of a dumbass 18th century peasant is enlightened.

>>10404832
Your brain is clogged with contradictions you can't even fully explain. sad

>>10404841
Look up statistical outliers and long tails. White men are several degrees of power more likely to be capable writers than women or niggers. Its rough but a fact of life.
I'm simply being efficient with my time

>>10404847
>Your brain is clogged with contradictions

Name one in clear predicate logic, put your money where your mouth is nigger

>>10404849
It's not a fact dude you're literally just being controlled into discounting your fellow humans. White men are more likely to be represented in classics because they were the only ones who received educations, weren't pillaged into desolation or worked into submission. This is so obvious to anyone who views history without an ideological lens.

What's worse is that now those factors are somewhat lifted and even as women and black people are proving themselves through plent of great culture you ignore it to preserve your own faulted sense of self.

Sad that /lit/ even tolerates /pol/ level nonsense.

>>10404422
Exactly this.

Read Veblen /lit/.

>>10404859
>non aristotelean logic
burn in hell heathen

>>10404859
>I wouldn't be dismissing these goobers so superficially if it wasn't superficial standards that led to them being popular to begin with

>>denouncing superficiality when you wouldn't even take the time to read Jaeggy to prove it is superficial.
>>Admits to being superficial too
>>What's the problem with superficiality anyway then

>>10404871
>White men are more likely to be represented in classics because they were the only ones who receive

BECUASE They're who formed Western Civlization. You talk like God just handed Greek thought to Europe one day. There was no classical education before white men created it all out of fucking thin air.

Regardless do the math if a tiny percentage of people in general are talented enough to become great writers and a certain demographic (white men) is a tiny bit more predisposed on average to reach that limit then even if white men are only marginally smarter on average than other races it still results in there being tremendously more gifted writers in that group.

>>10404691
>Bok
meme poet, the equivalent of the guy who wrote Gadsby. The focus is never on his poems/their content--rather, it's on the kooky way in which the poems are distorted/delivered. Fitting for such a frivolous country as Canada.

>Rankine
>"...The first chapter details microagressions that have occurred to Rankine and her friends. The second chapter discusses the YouTube character Hennessy Youngman created by Jayson Musson, and discusses racial incidents in the life of Serena Williams and her public image. The third chapter features more microagressions and the nature of racist language."

>Lin
too much xanax

>Jaeggy
Chronic maudlinism + utter contempt for life. The only reason people like this stuff is because they've been conditioned to think that the essence of literature is black bile and sneering frenchness.

>Cole
man I have seen so much of this shit. tedious middlebrow social realism roman a clef about how IMMIGRANT of NATIONALITY struggles to FIT IN in AMERICA!?
It's never good, it's never interesting, it's always boring and it's ALWAYS EXACTLY THE SAME! FUCK!

***

I did set out on this list with an obvious bias, and I admit that. If you post me some cool passages I will read more, but right now... I have a painfully high certainty that all this shit would be a waste of my time to slog through. Like I have tasted the first spoonful of this soup and it's flavorless and bland. Capiche?

>>10404888
Lol the arabs gave greek thought to europe after the dark ages, but you probably choose to not believe that.

White Men only took over Western Civilization by being brutes, forcing women into submission and other civilizations too when they finally came out of the dark ages with a few weapons others didn't have. Better weapons =/= better culture.

>>10404887
>understanding where the products of a selection system came from is engaging in the same selection system

Here's the big piece of the picture you're missing if they were any good I would be happy to read them, but the problem is I literally how reason to believe that to be the case infact I have what I take as ample reason to suggest otherwise.

>>10404903
Anon... easy on the John Green videos.

>>10404888
>Greeks
>White
WE

>>10404903
Not even him, but holy shit, I thought these were memes /pol/sters engaged in to strawman any disagreement, but I've lived to see 'we wuz kangz' and 'the golden age of Islam' on /lit/.

I guess this is my cue.

>>10404903
>Lol the arabs gave greek thought to europe after the dark ages

They didn't give shit, the Southern Meditteranean remnants of the Roman Empire held onto it before the Arabs fucked it up.
Europeans actually had zero military advantage over the rest of the world until the industrial age. What set Europeans apart was having a belief in independent thought and achievement (thanks to Christianity) that enabled the daring and fortitude required to start the Age of Exploration, and the discovery of America which was the engine for the enlightment.

>>10404903
I was with you until this stupid fucking post, seeing European history just as a series of conquests is even stupider than not acknowledging them

why do people still do the "trolling n00bs" thing, it's like shooting fish after they've been cooked and placed before you in a silver dish

>>10404671
>calls out anonymous poster for bad grammar
>while not using capitalization or punctuation
>muh burgers
What did he mean by this?

>>10404535
pic related, lel

>>10404373
YA sells like hotcakes. Half the world is watching the latest superhero movies and Game of Thrones episodes. Only turbo autists don't listen to music. Arts and culture, no matter how shitty we here think they are, are still essential to humans.

>>10404902
Bok is working on inserting a set of sonnets about Orpheus into a heat-resistant cell that will outlive the sun exploding. He works without poetry outside the bounds of romanticism that you seem to want him to stay in (i.e. the focus on the poem and content)

Your dismissal of Rankine is off hand and biased. Try not to be triggered by the word microaggression and try again.

Jaeggy - fair, but I think she writes beautiful sentences

Cole: Most of Open City takes place in his head, isn't a standard immigrant narrative. He actually inverts it as the main-character is successful and travels the world, thinking about history and philosophy and talking to a bunch of different kinds of people. The immigrant narrative though, shouldn't be discounted immediately just because you don't relate to it.

>>10404904
but you decided that they were good or bad before engaging, and anyway your ability to shed an imposed ideological worldview is second grade level.

>>10404945
>your ability to shed an imposed ideological worldview

The irony is palpable

>>10404927
"Ionia is an ancient region of central coastal Anatolia in present-day Turkey"

>>10404945
>but you decided that they were good or bad before engaging

As is my wont, I little time to entertain mediocrity

>>10404951
Your point being? Other than the most European region of the Islamic world dominating their entire civilization for millenia

>>10404953
>>He says on 4chan

>>10404373
Anyway, while the /pol/ people debate if people who aren't white men are culturally valuable...

people are interested in culture right now even if you guys don't have the time to go find out what's good. I hate Rupi Kaur too, but there's tons of poets who do identity focused work who don't suck. And the experimental work going on right now is at least interesting. The argument that "culture sucks right now" is so reductionist and only indicative of someone who likes to stop themselves from thinking too much. There's literally so much culture right now all you have to do is be your own curator.

>>10404960
>>Or the most Islamic part of Europe dominating European thought??

>>Jeez i guess we can't make sweeping claims about one culture being better than another.

>>10404976
>there's tons of poets who do identity focused work who don't suck.

>>10404953
>he says this while posting on /lit/
lmfao

>>10404984
>Or the most Islamic part of Europe dominating European thought??

Oh shit, the Ancient Greeks were Muslims?

>>10404962
checkmate

>>10404996
>>10404962
>>10405000
Don't make fun of my website

>>10404997
They weren't pale Christians either

>>10404984
>most Islamic part of Europe dominating European thought??
Not him but would what that be? Islamic theologians took most of their basis from Aristotle

>>10404903
> the arabs gave greek thought to europe
Besides your marginalization of the entire Byzantine Empire, the Latin Church was structurally and intellectually rooted in the Greco-Roman tradition. Arabs did not benevolently culturally enrich Europe. Crusader forces picked up some Islamic culture but it was by no means some kind of evolutionary transformation. Averroes' translations of Aristotle were later banned by Islamic authorities. Your narrative also excludes the Greek thinkers and tradesmen that fled West after 1453.
>White Men only took over Western Civilization by being brutes
Letting normies read was a mistake.
>forcing women into submission
Patriarchal, male dominated societies were the norm everywhere.
>other civilizations too
Conquest and pillage were and are not even remotely exclusive to European societies. Colonialism took it to another level scale-wise, but don't act like the world was full of passive victims.

>>10404976
I'll accept what you're saying is true. Where do I start looking?

>>10405005
No but I didn't claim that. Western Civlization began at the synthesis of the Roman Citizen with the Child of Israel.

>>10405005
You have a misunderstanding about what Western means, study history and you can trace a geneology from Greco-Roman thought and tradition through Christianity up to Enlightment and modernism, all as responses to eachother, all fundamentally European

Underfunding and continual slashing of arts and humanities programs in highschools, over-focus on STEM within society, business, and universities as a whole. The emergence of the Hollywood blockbuster. The internet accelerating mass media to hyperspeed, dissuading any actual focus or viewer participation/concentration. SJW reactionary identity politics that, instead of making people more aware and interested in black, asian, and latin culture, instead has just boiled down into anti-western; + /pol/'s own anti-idpol idpol, which basically consists of whatever popular alt-right youtuber at the moment tells them was good about life 100 years ago.

Read up on Mark Fisher, too, if you're interested in why culture hasn't seemed to evolved in any significant or revolutionary way over the past two decades.

>>10405011
Put your eggs in as many baskets as you can for a while until you figure it out. /lit/ is just one of those baskets for me. Talk to people at bookstores, librarians, try appreciating things you once dismissed offhand (like rap i'd guess for most people on /lit/) and seeing where it connects to what you already like.

Read things like lithub, poetry.com, Paris review, and understand that they have ideologies, but take what they give you that's good, even if you think a lot of it sucks, that's just how it is, but you can find good stuff on these sites if you try. Go to local art shows (again, lots of crap, but that's always how its been and you find gems this way) and talk to the artists there. Not going to argue those places aren't full of crap too, but they're not worthless. One artist/writer will connect you to another.

Just never let your mind close, or hold to sweeping ideas like that white men are just better because that creates cultural stasis as evidenced above. (and is literally just stupid.) Culture has always been hard to find. You just have to fucking work to find it.

>>10405036
thanks George

>>10405048
NIgga, no one dismisses black authors just because they're black (apart from some /pol/ crossposters) and I'm open to reading/listening/paying attention to any author regardless of racial identity, but holy shit NIGGA, rap is fucking retarded nigga, stop it with this fucking rap is high art poetry meme nigga.

>>10405048
>like rap i'd guess for most people on /lit/

After two decades of never being a fan I suddenly got into the genre through a friend then became severely bored of it after a few months. Overrated and seriously limited, glad I never wasted much time with it

>>10405048
I don't think that "white" men are inherently better (I'm not that retard pol-poster). Impossible as this may be to believe, my objection is honestly a purely aesthetic one... so many white men, so many people of all races and SEEEXES!! write these boring roman a clefs too. It's like a New York thing more than a race thing. I fucking hate this little cat steps school of literature which identifies literature with futility and milquetoast pointlessness... hard for me to express it. But New York should be paved over ASAP. Prompt(o).

I downloaded the open city and I'll look into it. Thanks for all your excellent suggestions, I'll keep slamming through the journals I know I hate. I have found some good shit in them before. I'll also check out lithub and stuff. I guess the few gems you find through doing that are so good that they sweep over and overpower an ocean of bullshit.

Thanks again for your patience.

>>10405048
>never let your mind close
>BUT SERIOUSLY DONT THINK IN THIS WAY ITS WRONG THINK!

>>10405068
Who did you listen to?

>>10404479
there are more people doing anything than ever before (except buying books lmao) >>10404271

>>10405065
In some cases I would disagree that rap isn't just poetry. I recommend mf doom.

>>10405082
Lately, post-rock and edgy low-fi pop

>>10405048
>like rap i'd guess for most people on /lit
>>10405068
I grew up listening to rap, then grew out of it because it's awful. I have better taste than both of you, who are literal plebs consuming the lowest form of music

>>10405091
That's cool, but I was wondering about rap artists.

>>10405103
Oh right, Kendrick, Talib Kweli, Madlib, Wutang Clan. Couldn't get into MF Doom

>>10405094
>Taste in music is objective
>Lol g-guys i-im superior

>>10405048
Rap is fun, but... I think like all lyrics, it's a more primal, less intellectual form of poetry.

This has benefits and drawbacks. And no, this isn't some racist thing. I don't think black guys are the noble savage. I think this is true of all lyrics. Like Borges said: "Before it was poetry, it was song."

I really think that, in time, the word begins to overpower music and take precedence. And like I said, that's a tradeoff...

But I listen to hella rap dude wtf u talking about. I listen to rare shit too like Bladee, he's like a lean-drinking man's Petrarch

>>10405117
>Taste in music is objective
True

>>10405123
>>>/mu/

>>10405117
>relativism of any kind
Atleast you can rationalize your shit taste

>>10405135
Oh yeah like relativism is anymore popular here

>>10405089
That's all I listened to as an edgy pseudo-intellectual 16 year old, mainly because I come from a dysfunctional and dismembered family who listened to classical and jazz, so I naturally rebelled against that and got into rap, then indie/math rock, then full circle to jazz and classical, hell even liturgical music and Gregorian chants, even though 10 years later I barely listen to any music.

And yes, it's great in its lowly company, and it is poetry, and it's much more accessible than most forms of poetry and music which can be a good thing. But it's still trash at the end of the day. Once my psyche and impulses evolved with age and my sensibilities evolved concurrently as to be quenched by higher forms of art, I just can't bring myself to return to rap. Sure, I can tolerate it, bop my head to it, don't get me wrong, I understand it and what it's about, but I just can't take it seriously anymore.

>>10405117
>>Taste in music is objective
Yeah but it is

I'd like to see anyone on /lit/ write anything approaching art at this level.

>>10405136
I listen to music from different genre, I'm not rationalizing anything you just want to seem superior because
>stop liking what I don't like

>>10405146
>if a syllable appears consequetively in any two lines regardless of meter position this is impressive

>>10405120
>I listen to rare shit too like Bladee, he's like a lean-drinking man's Petrarch
Get off my board child

>>10405149
>>stop liking what I don't like
I mean, if you don't mind please do

>>10404512
I think you're getting to the root of the matter with the claim that there are too many artists right now. The term has been stripped of its original meaning and given a new one, as has the term "art."
Many people these days subscribe to the belief that "art" is basically anything that is crated, especially if it is something that is meant to entertain, ie TV shows that are anything but games shows or news. The word "art" now essentially means any kind of consumable media, and an artist is somebody who engages with it.
Even under this expanded definition, there's still still a large number of poseurs, people who don't even engage in this creation of consumable media, but call themselves "artists" or "creatives" or "artsy." They instead engage in a specific mode of consumption that fits the self given label. It dictates the clothes they wear, the bars and restaurants they patronize, the media they consume, the apartments they rent, and so on. The mindset is that if you're of a certain age and don't choose to be part of the unconcerned suburban middle class then you must be some sort of "artsy." The social currency in these groups is the appearance of being an artist. Maybe you tell people you're working on a screenplay, wear the costume (flannel, beard, slim jeans) and attend the correct events and places. You only engage with "lower" forms of culture with a detached sense of irony, if at all. You cloister yourself among similarly minded people and all tell yourself that you're artists who just haven't made it yet. If you are actually creating something, it strictly adheres to the trends that are acceptable in the culture. Maybe mass media won't like it, but your "artsy" subculture will enjoy your avant garde noise band that performs at the local coffee shop/bar once every six months or so. And that counts as art.
The arts are also the only thing effecting so strongly in this way. I'm a good cook, and I occasionally cook for friends and family who enjoy it. Unlike the noise musician, I am not treated like some great chef awaiting his big break, I am just another person who has a knack for cooking. But if I'm the noise musician, even if my skill is no better than cooking skill, I am treated as if I deserve a big break and am awaiting it. Any kind of attempt at something artistic is considered special, no matter how mediocre.

>>10405149
>>stop liking what I don't like
No it's actually
>stop pretending what you like isn't fucking awful and that enjoying means you don't have awful taste

>>10405152
While telling a story too dumbass He's not totally repetitive about his metric structure which is probably why you can't identify it.

He's also working with stressed and unstressed syllables too but you wouldn't care to notice that.

>>10405153
>My board

>>10405146
Lmao this is shit and lighting it up like a fucking tajweed doesn't change a thing

>>10405166
>a story

DUDE NIGGAS ARE DYING IN THESE STREETS

>>10405146
I'm impressed. Never felt physically ill from lyrics before. I'm guessing it was made bad on purpose.

>>10405158
I would just argue that its always been this way and that this culture still shits out good art sometimes

>>10405175
>>10405176
>>10405174
Close your eyes to what you can't imagine

>>10405161
Nice superiority complex

>>10405166
wew lad, this is like lauding someone for being an outstanding mathematician because he's good at working around primary school arithmetic.

I'll chalk this down to age. Also, I really recommend you read some actual poetry. Mind you, it won't be as accessible, but once it becomes so, there is no turning back.

>>10405186
Nice intellectual castration

>>10405190
Nice buzzwords

>>10405190
>I don't like rap
>I have balls
genius

>>10405197
>>10405203
How old are you boys?

>>10404976
good post

>>10405209
>Did you just assume my gender?
Also nice ageism

>>10404976
>identity focused work
>that doesn't suck

>>10404539
Choke on a dick, maggot.

>>10405203
I do *like* rap, same way I like bouncing a ball off a way. It just doesn't engage me past a point

Because there are hardly any standards left for art, and creative corridors have narrowed due to mass democratization of art.

>>10404373
Because the capitalist culture of the USA objectified art in the minds of too many people (nerds). This is also why there's a proliferation of stuff like metacritic/RT, people who obsesses over objective reviewer mindsets and so-on. It went from being philosophical and conflicting to being "the average". The closest thing is now is "is X art?!"

>>10404373

Because of multiculturalism and integration. Cultural 'minorities' now have across the board cultural representation, and they produce works speaking specifically to their own experiences rather than aiming for a universal cultural product. Thus, any given artist now operates on a different wavelength than any given plurality of potential art consumers.

>>10405178
I agree to a point--there have always been more artists than there has been good art, and that there is still some things of value coming out of this. But the number of "artists" is disproportionately large in this period, and he amount of schlock is enormous. I know some of it comes from greater access to platforms.
In past art scenes that we know large amounts about the inner workings there was a degree of self-policing. The hacks were drummed out to a point because that was acceptable. Now it's unacceptable to tell somebody they aren't making good art, and you in turn are drummed out of whatever circle or scene, even if you were calling somebody out who clearly deserved it.

>>10405228
Good analogy, I actually used to listen to it all the time in hs, it's why I can say it's shit, and how I know anyone into cloud rap or lil mumble whatever the fuck is an idiot, almost as bad as the white kids into "real" oldschool, or the edgy OFWG ones, or the conscious Jcole and Kendrick, or the pseudo-artsy MF Doom and Aesop Rock. All shit

>>10405249
In today's economy you have find to find a specific market.
Also, what universal cultural products are you talking about?

>>10404871
>White men are more likely to be represented in classics because they were the only ones who received educations, weren't pillaged into desolation or worked into submission
the populations who had thousands of years of undisturbed history to create their own versions of the Platonic school, of Aristotelian, who could have created Stoicism, Buddhist philosophy, Hindu dialectics, Materialism and the thought of the Islamic scholars of the Golden Age failed to do so because they're biologically inferior to the cultures that did. You don't depress people's ingenuity by oppressing them, if that was the case the Irish wouldn't be the genius race that they are (of fucking goblin niggers).
>women and blacks are proving themselves to not be useless
no they're not, that's why there is no black James Joyce or female William Blake. There's a reason there is no openly flaming homo genius writers or anything of that sort right now. All these groups are inferior biologically to straight whyte Caucasians, specifically european males, but in general Asiatic and Caucasian cis-het males are the most creative and genius group on Earth. You're stupid and want to hide from reality because its painful and there is no prize for understanding it besides that pain.

What if one likes rap/trap more for the sound and not so much the rapping itself?

>>10405253
I think widespread access + relativist critique will always equal bad art

>>10405259
>good analogy
whew

>>10405262
Without sperging on you, I would argue that its still an object belonging to aesthetics to which you can infer a certain emotional/intellectual profile that responds to it. I would also argue that it is of a very low level.

>>10405271
It's more of what patterns in the sound are appealing

Beautiful Eulogy

>>10405264
>>10405253
This isn't an argument that culture is dead though, just an observation of maker to consumer ratios

>>10405261
read more, less /pol/ biological determinism is for peasants

>>10405318
>biological determinism is for peasants

Yes, the modern aristocrats (and Jews) said this so it must be true

>>10405185
WHITEY DON GET IT

>>10405260
Obviously the kind made by aristocrats trained from birth, you know, the average person.

>>10404373
internet addiction

>>10404774
The four tetrach are almost "human" sized.
While the figures on the right are foot sized if not smaller.
Detail, the skill of craftsmanship.

>>10405277
>YO NIGGA WE NEED MORE TROCHEES AND FEMININE RHYMES DOE!

it does sound hella good I can't lie

>>10404535
for best effect, the examples should be reversed.

god this is a depressing image

>the artisan on the left was like you and I, unlucky enough to be born into a declining society
>he studied hard, he tried his best, but he knew in his heart that it was all in vain. All he would ever produce would be a shameful monument to the deterioration and decay of his culture.

feels bad man

>>10404373
>they're all women
I knew the SMBC guy was a hardcore atheist, did he upgrade to SJW feminist too?

>>10404539
lol

>>10405587
he also pushes for diversity... by setting the bucket tool to a random color and clicking on the skin. good enough. a disgrace to the irish race imo

>>10404512
>Some television is art
Wrong. Thanks for revealing that you don't know what art is, now please leave.

>>10405048
>Just never let your mind close, or hold to sweeping ideas like that white men are just better because that creates cultural stasis as evidenced above.

Dude just have an open mind, but no no, don't think THAT, are you crazy?

>>10405117
melody and rhythm is objective
sound or "texture" is subjective, also BPM

>>10405123
lol

>>10404434
Bakker?

Yep, the ones complaining about the death of art are the ones not interested in it themselves. HOW IRONIC.

>>10405596
>random color
>looks at OP again
>woman's face is white
>arms are fucking blue

checks with chart.

>>10404535

I think you have cause and effect reversed there. Sophistication requires surplus and stability. Surplus to create the cadre of people who can afford to dedicate themselves to art; stability so that the traditions can be passed on and people aren't constantly re-inventing the wheel.

>>10405571

The figure on the left is carved out of porphyry though. Here's a brief primer on what that means:

https://www.exurbe.com/?p=717

>>10405654
Do you understand what an open mind is? Seems like you don't.

>>10405048
Thanks, that's actually good advice.

>>10404535
This retard who doesn't even know how to use a semicolon is lecturing us on aesthetics

You know absolutely nothing about modern art or that of Ancient Rome. You are a posturing faggot who blames modernity for his social incompetence. Please, please, PLEASE shut the fuck up

It's so calm in here while the spiteful jewposter is busy with his Protocols of Zion thread.

>>10404373
Too many distractions.

>>10404373
If anything people are more interested in the arts and culture now. Especially beyond superficial social posturing. Due to the fact that it is now available to almost everyone.

>>10407332
Yes but it often seems like people have no idea what to do with their art. It's consumed like any other product, to the same effect.

>>10405260

Before multiculturalism became state/academic policy, there was the Western canon of works considered to be universal and thus universally studied in the West. Of course there were/are no truly universal cultural products, the closest you could get would be the still-read works of dead ancient civilizations like the works of the Greeks and Romans, the Bible, the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita, and such.

>>10407440
>Before multiculturalism became state/academic policy
Do you mean before modern capitalist policies?

>>10404373
let me drop my period blood on a canvas
this is art, I know it's art I have a degree in it, it's also a display of women's bodies rejecting opression! pay me

on a more serious note, I think it's post modern art, artists trying to be "so deep" with mundane shit. or just literal shit.

The normal person doesnt really care for the deeper meaning, however they can still appreciate a painting, portrait, landscape etc i m o

People have *never* been interested in arts and culture

>>10407451
Yes, dork.

>>10404373
Because we were taught by the government school Bolsheviks that it was racist.

>>10404938
>Bok is working on inserting a set of sonnets about Orpheus into a heat-resistant cell that will outlive the sun exploding. He works without poetry outside the bounds of romanticism that you seem to want him to stay in (i.e. the focus on the poem and content)
That's a cute little performance art piece.

>>10406057
kek not even this

Have you guys ever listened to african music? They change the tempo all the time and it's awesome. Music is to be enjoyed you fucking retards.

You can analyze music and see if it reaches the goal it tries to reach - that's the only objective thing you can say about it's quality.
Then there's all the shit you learn in music school, that shit is not about quality - it's about harmony and how the music is build, not it's quality.

>>10408635
>Have you guys ever listened to African music
No.

I don't know what the fuck you guys are talking about.
I doubt there was ever a better time to be an artist.

>>10407926
>the world can't go through concurrent periods of moral decay and renewal

Found the sub 110 IQ

Art and Culture as a driving force can mostly exist in a religious society.

Not that artists were pro-religion or something, but that they environment was such that people did care, even if to see critique of the general culture(which was religion).

What exalted transcendent ideology do you have to criticise now? Materialist capitalism? From a non-spiritual perspective(marxism and racist bigotry included) that would be impossible. Only a high religious ideology will create future art and maybe challenge capitalism.

I blame net neutrality and jews and Drumks

>>10408635
>They change the tempo all the time and it's awesome
so what? you could say the same about a lot of prog rock, for example.

>>10408635
>Have you guys ever listened to african music?

Most soyboy shit I read on here in a long time
Fucking apes banging on bongos, woah so amazing

>>10408635
>Have you guys ever listened to african music?
No, I respect myself

Sorry to burst your bubble, but math has always been better than art and always will be.

>>10408683
but prog rock is wankery and you can't dance to it

>>10408772
>Nigger logic

>>10408778
shit posting

>>10404373
If that were true, why do these boards exist?

>>>/a/
>>>/v/
>>>/vg/
>>>/co/
>>>/tv/
>>>/tg/
>>>/toy/
>>>/ic/
etc.

Are none of these arts and culture because they aren't your arts and culture?

>>10408746
>I respect myself
>posts on 4chan

>>10408638
>>10408685
>>10408746
>not liking fela kuti
/pol/ needs to leave

>>10408795
yes none of those boards are arts or culture, they are anti-culture as they all center around consumer products and culture industry propaganda. they are mostly a-historical and a-moral in nature and avoid philosophical meaning like the plague. brainlet pseud retard bug brain

>>10408931
By this logic everything on the internet is not art or culture. Do you think that?

>>10408931
>they are anti-culture because [arbitrary reasoning]
Their existence does not threaten your culture in any way, only your inability to preserve it does. Those boards and the interests they are based on are full of culture and passion which you obviously know nothing about, some of which I know nothing about, but at least I'm able to discern and respect cultural differences.

>>10408937
No that doesn’t logically follow. Twitter users and other niche cliques have produced art on the internet which is some kind of culture, but it gets swept away with the tides of consciousness. All of that crap is masturbation, the nonsense you’re trying to deviously insert as culture, pedo anime, manchildren toys, /tv/ pedo/self-insert drama, culture industry comics propaganda and all that isn’t culture. you forgot /mu/ faggot

>>10408976
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/arcade_culture/

>b-but it's anti-culture!

>>10408976
I'm not trying anything, you paranoid freak. I'm just asking questions to anons on 4chan. You, on the other hand, are shoehorning a lot of retardation in your shit prose.

>>10408931
anti-culture is culture, dumbass

>>10404373
You're a limited brainlet with delusions of grandeur, your view of culture in general is so limited and shallow it makes a pothole look like the Marianna Trench, your points are inane and void, your definitions arbitrary and without point and your understanding of the zeitgeist you live in and the people you share it with is non existent. You mind is barren and the only people that might ever agree with you are as disfunctional and idiotic as yourself. But it's fine, you mentally masturbate each other in your own circle you nevet dare leave out of fear of rejection and feed on each other's hubris. I wouldn't even post this if it weren't for your assumed superiority that only you see but are very proud of. You are a miserable dull-minded simpleton and your only achievement is having read a couple of books that most of everyone else read and now think you can lecture others on culture or the human condition, while displaying precisely 0 understanding of either. I wish you all the worst because, honestly, you deserve it.

>>10408644
There wasn't a better time to be almost anything you can imagine.

>>10408995
im not reading that, or givin the site clickbait, your neotenized, homofaggot (closet pedophile), feminized, autistic, stunted false consciousness anti-culture needs to be argued for here and now by you, little bugman

>>10409102
not its not at all by definition as it produces nothing. Ubik is a fleeting form of culture, Mass Effect is anti-culture; Tolkien is culture, LOTR movies are anti-culture; there are very rare instances of real culture in film and animation. Akira is real culture, BR2049 is real culture, Ture Detective Season 1 is real culture. Most of the things that share an artistic category with those are anti-culture. If you can’t see the difference you’re a subhuman and you’re the product of culture industry, you should seek out real culture soon as the anti-culture eats away at your subconscious and imagination. Bugfaggot

>>10409183
By the way you string words together you seem to be barely sentient.

>>10409189
>what I like is culture what I don't like isn't

You are, mentally at the very least, 13

>>10409189
>this is good but this is not good
you really showed him, anon

>>10409197
you can’t argue with me and you cling to subhuman products of a cannibalistic monster machine that actively seeks to annihilate subjective consciousness, you embrace techno-capitalism mocking our heritage, mocking our sapience, mocking our biology and the spirit of organic life, evolution and the entirety of our being and you think you are qualified to decide whose sentient? Laughable

>>10409189
>Ture Detective Season 1 is real culture
How can one post statements like this and not instantly understand they are posturing idiots?

>>10409183
>im not reading that
Then there's nothing else to say to you, luddite.

>>10409204
Nonsense knowing what is in good taste and has a soul behind it and knowing that which is totally dratructive to human consciousness is an intuitive exercise anyone who is not riding the phallus of Leviathan can undertake. Did you see how i delineated between culture and anti-culture? Why would Ubik be culture but Mass Effect is not? curious, isn’t it? What could possible differentiate them? You have the reat of your life to ponder why rick and morty is anti-culture and why Frankenstein is culture.

>>10409213
you make the people who share your heritage look bad desu

>>10409217
but you suck at delineating

>>10409213
>whose sentient

Your towering intellect humbles me anon. Do go on.

>>10409217
Do you actually think that your 20$ words impress anyone? If your reasoning and argumentative skills are so good, explain to me how and why Ubik is better than Mass Effect.

>>10409225
Your ancestors would hang you from the highest tower in the land if they knew what your mind was like you cretin
>>10409232
In which way? BR2049 moves people and contains the swan song of the male race, it is itself a masterpiece and will only become a more potent gate to the end of our spiritual development with time. Every lonesome soul can look into k’s heart and see the death of the Self and of Love. That’s part of the end of culture, wrapping up pur history as conscious beings before the great Silence is ushered in by the noospheric hive mind and eventually total loss of sapience.
>>10409233
You can’t engage you aren’t yourself intelligent, you have no ability to open me up or deconstruct my words. You shrink back with every response into detached irony while i stomp you into the pavement like the insect that you’ve become. The dreadful spawn of too many generations of barely human beasts of burden, managerial drone caste mongrels, mindless hunter-seeker bots. Most people lack the genetic makeup to host the human over soul anymore, I don’t even feel pitt for people like you. Someone in your lineage was a petulant snake of a man and decided to stop weaving together the Great Work that is production of the Absolute Being and now we’re left with 7 billion little ants who cry out for mother’s milk all day long and won’t pick up a plow, a sword or a pen if it meant saving their own offspring from being ravaged by techne. Yellow-bellied little bug, hiding from the Sunlight, over socialized and impoverished of the meaningful bonds that make a man whole. Closeted degeneracy, wallowing in eternal spiritual infancy, feeding at a public opinion trough just as the architects of control have designed you and yours to do. Basically a golem beast, no humanity behind those eyes and certainly no warmth towards the dying Earth. A whole biosphere 4 billion years in the making, snuffed out for BTC trading, dick pic apps, vidya and vibrators

>>10409213
That paragraph is a fucking mess. Learn how to write a fucking sentence you absolute twat.

>>10409213
Christ almighty, you are repulsive.

Maybe read a book of things you like as opposed to opening your mind to new possibilities that, perhaps, you didn't account for like the child that you clearly are.

Go to an Art Museum, get laid and chill the fuck out.

>>10409214
>Ture Detective

>>10409256
>Your ancestors would hang you from the highest tower in the land if they knew what your mind was like you cretin
No, you would. My ancestors were decent human beings.

>>10404373
Most people have never really been interested in art and literature. The 18th and 19th centuries were unusual because rapidly rising literacy and the development of capitalism created a whole class of educated people interested in consuming cultural artefacts previously only available to aristocrats and the clergy.

However by the 20th century, media designed purely for commercial consumption had become the norm. Homer and Milton were supplanted by Robert E. Howard and radio soap operas. Rather than read Marx or Plato or Descartes for insight into man and society, people would subscribe to Reader's Digest.

Things are getting better though. The internet and big-box booksellers have made access to important literature immeasurably easier. People who want to become educated have never been more able to do so. If we were living in 1975, few of us would have ever heard of Pynchon or Foucault.

>>10409262
REAL CULTURE

>>10409256
You're trying too hard to get (You)s anon. It was fun at first, now you veered too deep in fedora territory. Have a (You) for the effort.

>>10409239
why don’t you open your eyes? What does Mass Effect do for the race? increase the shareholders profits? break open the human psyche to new realms of consciousness? Which is it? Do you honestly think the works of Dick and Gibson even come close to the debauched feeding frenzy on psychic sewage that is Mass Effect the cliche machine, mass effect the raw human excrement of unoriginality, a cornucopia of stolen ideas, half-baked notions and incredible cognitive dissonance? Really anon, think before you ask me such things. Moby Dick is culture, Interstellar is not; Lizst is culture, Young Thug is not. Again why even ask me these things? what in your mind had to snap so that corporate fascist propaganda became an acceptable form of human creativity to you? You know that you’re a consumer pathogenic monstrosity, yes? you’re aware that the entirety of the corpus of works you’re defending was created to further the financial interests of techno-capital, YES?

Pathetic

>>10409256
Fascinating. Anything to say about manly Jews?

>>10409256
very cute

7/10 for effort

3/10 for prose

2/10 for concept

>>10404373
Do you lads think the textwall guy is that desperare for (You)s or are we actually dealing with a cap level autist on a really spergy day?

>>10409277
addendum for >>10409279

Little long in the tooth, no?
Swiftly losing points

>>10409259
There’s nothing wrong with the form of that post you ingrate
>>10409261
Lol at you bugchild of the last man
>>10409262
Grow a pair of eyeballs and look what was presented before you, you’re trying to defend anime, cartoons, comics, toys and Rick and Morty and have the gall to snear at a piece of art that two idiots stumbled into
>>10409265
your ancestors were scared little cattle just like you. Mine faced the flames and survived. Can’t say the same for most people
>>10409272
I’ll address who i wish to, anon. None of you can defend your assertions even at a cursory level. None of you demonstrate even the most passing kind of intellectual engagement with what I’m saying. You know very well that Bioware dating sims, pedo bait anime, manchild toy collecting, comic books and their film adaptations, swill of the kind that’s shown on adult swim and every other kind of psychically parasitic thoughtform you cling to when its dark and you feel all alone is indefensible.

>>10409284
I don't think anyone cares anymore, unfortunately.

Lotsa threads are turning out this way in recent memory. You shoulda seen that Dadaism thread a few days back.

>>10409295
We most probably have the same ancestors, anon. What flames are you talking about?

>>10408920
Was just gonna post this/mention Afrobeat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q76UngzHX5Y

>>10409297
>we can’t, unchallenged, say whatever we want
no you can’t anon, there will always be a few people who have the image of Man in their mind’s eyes who won’t accept your poison

>>10409295
>your ancestors were scared little cattle just like you. Mine faced the flames and survived. Can’t say the same for most people

>>10409300
The flames of faggotry that engulf him.

>>10409303
Doing God's work here anon.

>>10409287
I admire his dedication to being the apex faggot ITT.

>>10409131
Is this the post that started it all? It's obviously not the same guy but the style is somewhat similar.

>>10409340
Certainly memorable in his ignorance...

Ah, what the hell, I'll kick it up to 4/10 for concept

let's watch the thread implode under the faggotous weight of his intellect

unironically because postmodernism has made everything ugly. why would anyone want to go see der ring des nibelungen when the stage is just a bunch of blocks and people in bland costumes

>>10405048
>listen to rap to find good culture
>this is where our society is now

>>10409359
Faggotous is a beautiful word anon. McCarthyan even.

>>10409405
Thank you anon.

I prefer creative uses of language, glad to vindicated for once

>>10409277
>What does Mass Effect do for the race?
Provide pleasure. You're undermining the value and cultural significance of that. Mass Effect is a mediocre series, but it's still loved by many. Deus Ex is a much better example, which was a fantastic critically acclaimed entry in the FPS/RPG subgenre and deserved its recognition, and influenced many other artists.

>>10409404
reading comprehension is not your thing, it's ok

>>10405048
Don't be so open minded that your brain falls out.

>>10404976
>typical meme paragraph on 'culture'
>muh openmind
I hate burgers so much

>>10409555
it's actually better than the usual retardation posted on here

>>10409555
So if you hate people talking about being open minded that can only mean...

>>10409539
That's an issue that you clearly don't have to worry about.

>>10409623
If you're open minded to anything after 1960 I want you to leave MY country

>>10409555
>muh down to earth practical exclusionary bullshit
Hello /r/theredpill!

>>10409631
>hating Pynchon and Zappa and DeLillo and the Doors
Just kill yourself lmao

You don't appreciate art, you appreciate an incredibly vague aesthetic that you think is related to your political identity

>>10409673
He's maymaying silly. There are people who do hold these opinions though.

>>10409673
but anon those are all bad....

>>10404373
I'm gonna go bold and a little half-baked here but I think it might have something to do with Cultural relevance. People in general gravitate art that speaks to the times, one can imitate the art of the past, through archaic language and styles, but I feel the real way to grab people's attention, artistically 'initiated' or otherwise is through making a work that manages to reflect the modern climate whilst looking to the future. I think that's why rap has superseded poetry, you just can't make Keats shit anymore, you're only gonna be targeting a very niche class of people who already like that shit. People need startling examples, innovation, and something they can place within a culture (which no doubt has shaped them). I know its a meme but look at Death Grips, they're Philosophy is built on speed, acceleration, futurism, information overload. And that pervades all aspects of their music. Look at The Dark Knight, that in itself is a Post 9/11 Cultural Artifact that, intentionally or not, spoke to the threat of terrorism in a modern environment, it wasn't regressive or retrospective, it was now. And it was all entertainment, too often 'Art' is associated with waxing pretensions and it is that case that people read less, want 'snippets' and speed over tomes. Likely due to the Internet and whatever. Infinite Jest the same, and so many cultural phenomena. I feel that's what's needed to shake people from apathy, from there people may take an interest in the history of the arts but I dunno.

>>10404373
I'm gonna go bold and a little half-baked here but I think it might have something to do with Cultural relevance. People in general gravitate art that speaks to the times, one can imitate the art of the past, through archaic language and styles, but I feel the real way to grab people's attention (artistically 'initiated' or otherwise) is through making a work that manages to reflect the modern climate whilst looking to the future. I think that's why rap has superseded poetry, you just can't make Keats shit anymore, you're only gonna be targeting a very niche class of people who already like that shit. People need startling examples, innovation, and something they can place within a culture (which no doubt has shaped them). I know its a meme but look at Death Grips: their Philosophy is built on speed, acceleration, futurism, information overload. And that pervades all aspects of their music. Look at The Dark Knight, that in itself is a Post 9/11 Cultural Artifact that, intentionally or not, spoke to the threat of terrorism in a modern environment, it wasn't regressive or retrospective, it was now. And it was all entertainment, too often 'Art' is associated with waxing pretensions and it is that case that people read less, want 'snippets' and speed over tomes. Likely due to the Internet and whatever. Infinite Jest the same, and so many cultural phenomena. I feel that's what's needed to shake people from apathy, from there people may take an interest in the history of the arts but I dunno.

>>10408748
Saw this on spirit science some years ago - but he didn't explain shit about what the meaning of this was - because he's spirit science.

>>10408817
this

>>10409302
Why does funk suck but afrobeat just fucking rock?

>>10409183
who let the brain damage patient have an internet connection in the tard farm

>>10409295
wow what a fucking drama queen

>>10409295
>your ancestors were scared little cattle just like you. Mine faced the flames and survived. Can’t say the same for most people
peak LARPing
this is good stuff

>>10409623
... that I hate burgers.

>>10409627
Yeah because I'm not a gimp like you.

People don't have time for whatever they don't prioritize. Working and socializing usually come first- I don't blame people though for that.

>>10404373
> Why aren't people interested in the arts and culture anymore?

This is the question that has been asked by idiots down through the ages.

I'm not trying to be funny, look at what the critics were saying when they were living at the same time as the giants of culture in the past. Everything that came before was grand art compared to the tawdry garbage they thought the people around them were producing at that moment in which they lived.

200 years from now critics will be worshiping at the altar of works that will resonate from now until then. Who knows what currently unrecognized flotsam will be held up as enduring pieces of early 21st century genius?

>>10404373
Congratulations! You have officially become an old man. Report to your local AARP recruitment center for your high waisted pants and free discount card

Too much is either infested with politics/social "justice" or nepotism. Art is again a rich kid's game, only in the past those with talent got money. Now those with talent get ignored in favor of the talentless but socially connected. Either way low quality is guaranteed. Too much crap to wade through and people quit bothering.

>>10405249
The majority at large is currently being ignored, that is true.

However, even with minorities, agents only want ones that fit the narrow confines of victim politics. Look up the term "one story problem" a good article about it comes up.

Also, minorities don't read as much as white/Europeans do. That is just a fact; anyone who knows other cultures also knows that reading for entertainment is frowned upon. So we're having works foisted on us by people who don't come from cultures that are as literate as ours, to our detriment.

It comes down to winter. Those from the far north had to do something to keep them occupied during long dark nights. Other cultures could go out and dance, play drums, hold night markets or what have you. There is a reason Iceland is one of the most literate societies and Arabs one of the least.

>>10412353
hurrr

>>10405158
The participation trophy generation of teachers also destroyed the concept of work ethic or striving to improve beyond a base level of competence.

Literary agents enable this buy wanting only "high concept" stories where so long as the writing is somewhat readable, they sign it up. A quick and easy marketable product and fuck quality.

I see this with musicians too. Tone deaf singers who can still find enough friends to come to their gigs and cheer them on regardless.

Without standards to work towards, people become lazy or complacent. They rely more on having the right friends to get ahead than any particular ability.

>>10404903
Arabs CAUSED the dark ages.

They began invading in the 700s, causing the retreat to fortified castles, which isolated the various European populations from one another.

See Henri Pirenne, Charlemagne and Mohammad.

>>10404871
Listen: there was no written language anywhere in Africa or North America prior to colonialization.

Also look up IQ distributions. Women cluster around the average while with men, particularly white men, there is greater variability: more retards and more geniuses.

The printing press was invented in Europe, which gave them a leg up. Mass literacy started in Europe. The modern novel is an English invention.
In China and other Asian cultures you had an elite that intentionally shut out the lower classes. In warmer climates, people didn't need to be as productive and forward thinking to survive year after year (no winters to get through) without starving or freezing to death and therefore no need to develop technology or associated spinoffs.

It wasn't just muh lack of opportunity. You do realize that Europe was majority white until a few decades ago even in the major cities, right? It is not a "myth" as promoted now.....

>>10413460
>there was no written language anywhere in Africa or North America prior to colonialization
Care to provide a trustworthy source about this?

>>10413519
There is no writing for there to be sources about. This is the historical consensus. So the burden of proof is on you to provide sources for the existence of written language (Ethiopia doesn't count).

>>10413528
Don't play games with me. I'm not asking you for a text if your thesis is there isn't. I'm talking about a historical, scholary source about this consensus, a study detailing the absence of any written language in Africa or North America prior to colonization.

>>10413528
>burden of proof
>adding exceptions
pseud detected

>>10413460

>It is not a "myth" as promoted now.....

Right, who promotes this as a myth? Who genuinely does not believe what you claim in the last line?

>>10413519
it's certainly true for large parts of sub saharan africa. contemporary observers noted it. I have a British Museum book at home that has some references but i don't have it to hand at the moment. i think there is some mention of it in the AHOW100 series.

that is not to say that the people of the time didn't produce worthwhile artefacts- they did. they just didn't write it all down.

a good novel about that time is Red Strangers by Elspeth Huxley.

>>10413547
What is the title of the book?

>>10413430
good luck trying to educate an idiot. you could figure out arabs caused the dark ages just by looking at italian/croat city distributions aroudn the coast

liberal kikes retconned the dark age causes in the 60s

>>10413460
you are correct, but not about china

china had a free market system. they didn't shut out poor classes. the opposite happened, in fact. poor merchants became rich, bought out most of the land, and turned nobles into a scribe class. the merchants then rented their land out to peasants

literacy never got denied to peasants, but if they found it too difficult, tough shit

in china even peasants could purchase access to books and learning. but they'd need to plan ahead to save money, plant more rice, buy less alcohol, etc. merchants dont spontaneously arise from rotting flesh

>>10413554
i don't know. something something africa something something. i bought it in a sale but i haven't really read it much. i'm not that interested in africa
the AHOW100 book makes a point about "literate" and "non-literate" societies, and the conflict between them, though. non-literate societies still had spoken language, of course, and many expressed themselves artistically. i highly recommend the book and podcast series if you have never heard them

>>10413554
you are such a nigger

>anon asks for a scholary source
>gets a podcast recommendation
the absolute state of /lit/

>>10413602
apparently you've never heard of A History of the World in 100 Objects, commonly known as AHOW100.
It was a radio series narrated by Neil MacGregor, the director of the British Museum. There is a book that accompanies the series.

>>10413622
So there is evidence in there that there was no written language in Africa or North America prior to (european) colonization?

Why should they be? What can they get from literature that they can't get from music or movies or any other modern form of entertainment.

Literature was only ever as big as it was pre ca. 1940 because it didn't have much competition for the position of most popular form of media.

>>10413519
Mayans had writing.

>>10413622
This looks very broad and we are discussing a very specific, academic thing.

>>10413644
you fucking nigger. INDEED there is

>>10413657
Tell me what is is then, buddy
What is it? What could they possibly gain from staring at a book for hours on end with their busy, modern lives?
A book probably written by someone that wouldn't like them and that they wouldn't like, in a tradition and a style they have no reason to try and understand.

What's the fucking point? Normal people don't need to read Infinite Jest, they can just go to AA

>>10413640
How is it so difficult for you to use Google? Just search "non literate society"
I have posted two pictures right here
>>10413547
>>10413588
which are both of artefacts from the Benin Empire ruled by the Edo who did not have a written language. But clearly they had artistic expression
Now stop being such a fucking deliberately awkward idiot

>>10413640
the state of you

>>10413667
>I can't substantiate my claim, you'll have to use google
lol

>>10413648
true

>>10413675
idiot

>>10413664
a nigger gets nothing from reading, because they are incapable

I'll clue you in though, script is invented after pic related (not inventd in africa) and co-occurs alongside sealed pottery in all material culture (africa had been a good 1k years from sealed pottery)

>>10413706
What is your obsession with Niggers?

I clearly specified "person with a job". That's because it has always been middle class people with fairly good education that have been the biggest audience for the arts. Not the most important one of course, but clearly the biggest. It doesn't matter whether "Niggers" don't understand art, or whether it's whites. The working classes have always been philistine.

Nowadays, that class isn't interested in capital A Art anymore, and why should they be? They are simply too busy and would much rather consume some light-weight entertainment than go to an art exhibition and stare at some incomprehensible, shit pieces of art. Or read modern literature, for that matter. That's why they read Dan Brown etc.

The exception is teenagers, they have the time and interest for Art, but not the taste or intellect for it.

>>10413740
>it has always been middle class people with fairly good education that have been the biggest audience for the arts. Not the most important one of course, but clearly the biggest
not even remotely true throughout history

>>10413373
It has always been a rich kid's game and the nepotism used to be even worse.

>>10413740
I'm not discussing art and I don't care. I am talking about script, in response to something someone asked

niggers dont understand script. they cant read. I posted material proof of it. fuck off. I am not talking about your nigger art

>>10413754
I'm thinking of high literature, painting, sculpture, the opera etc. In the case of theater, you're probably right.
I should probably qualify my claim by adding "modern history"

>>10413763
Then you linked to the wrong post

>>10413767
no you asked for material proof niggers never invented script. I posted. kindly shoot yourself in your nigger head.

>>10413779
that wasn't me you schizophrenic racist
look at the post you linked to

>>10413783
Anonymous 12/18/17(Mon)01:44:31 No.10413640▶>>10413667 >>10413674
>>10413622
So there is evidence in there that there was no written language in Africa or North America prior to (european) colonization?
>>
Anonymous 12/18/17(Mon)01:46:07 No.10413644▶>>10413657
Why should they be? What can they get from literature that they can't get from music or movies or any other modern form of entertainment.

Literature was only ever as big as it was pre ca. 1940 because it didn't have much competition for the position of most popular form of media.

kill yourself

>>10413797
what kind of fucking mess is that post supposed to be
sort yourself out man

>>10413430
well, not entirely
the fall of the roman empire caused the dark ages, which was caused by the following:
1. fucking goddamn germans ruining everything like they do every time by wrecking shit and seizing power (see both world wars and the EU), the rampaging of the germanic tribes fucked over the western section of the fragmented empire
2. christianity ruining the stronk paganism and promoting a more pacifistic worldview
3. overextension of borders which were held by local forces who weren't entirely loyal to rome
3. the remnants of the patrician aristocracy were not very effective at being a ruling class after doing nothing but party for about a century during the final years of the unified empire
4. yup, muslims are indeed one reason, they indeed oogabooga'd out and tried to take over in europe

>>10413797
the state of you

>>10406789
Awesome article. Why are fine materials so fantastic? I just want to like, go into materials science and make more types and more of the rare ones that already exist so we can populate the world with it. I hope genetic engineering will be able to turn bone into ivory within my lifetime.

>>10413876
the germans and goths dismantled the bureaucracy but many things such as long distance escro and notary business still functioned

the germans ended rome but the end of rome is NOT the dark age. roman institutions lasted a good 300 more years

the arabs are the primary reason for the dark age, huns secondarily

>>10404434
>the world surrendered its collective soul in the early 1900’s for techne

You missed by at least a century.

>>10413547
Wow this looks awesome

>>10414253
I'm not OP

>>10409277
You are right.